Drag Racing - Front Swaybar? Or no Front Swaybar?

[ShelGame]

Drag racers - do you run a front swaybar? or not? Why or why not?

I've been working on end-linking my front swaybar, but now I also want to take a bunch of weight out of the car. So, I'm thinking about just deleting it completely. So, I'd like ot hear from those that have tried racing without it.

By my estimation, the front swaybar + hardware weighs about 22lb.

[turbo2point2]

I've been running without a sway bar for 10 years. No issues at all. Ditch it!

[ShelGame]

I've been running without a sway bar for 10 years. No issues at all. Ditch it!

What kind of weight balance do you have across the fronts? Pretty even? Last time I had my car on corner scales it was about 5lbs heavy on the driver side (IIRC). I tried shimming the swaybar to even them out, but that just made the drivers side spin worse (even with a PG in the diff). Now, there's no 'extra' pre-load in it.

I guess it's easy enough to take out, and I'm going to the track this weekend for testing anyway...

[turbovanman²]

I would say yes, as it helps/limit the front end from lifting. ^^^ above has a purpose built race car, :eyebrows:

[ShelGame]

I would say yes, as it helps/limit the front end from lifting. ^^^ above has a purpose built race car, :eyebrows:

Yeah, but I want to free up the front end, IE let it lift. Hence the reason I was end-linking everything in the first place.

And, this is a purpose-built race-car, too. :p Just not as fast as Brian's...

It's got stickers and stuff, see below...

[turboshad]

I would say yes, as it helps/limit the front end from lifting. ^^^ above has a purpose built race car, :eyebrows:

How does a sway bar, also know as an anti roll bar, limit the front end from lifting? Through bushing friction? A sway bar is designed to limit body roll by effectively increasing the spring rate of your outside wheel. For drag racing it has no purpose unless you do something like Stramer or you need it to keep your broken control arm together like Reeves, or was that Shadow. :D

[ShelGame]

How does a sway bar, also know as an anti roll bar, limit the front end from lifting? Through bushing friction? A sway bar is designed to limit body roll by effectively increasing the spring rate of your outside wheel. For drag racing it has no purpose unless you do something like Stramer or you need it to keep your broken control arm together like Reeves, or was that Shadow. :D

I think the stock swaybar can in fact keep the front end from lifting due to the bushing style ends.

I know when I had my van up in the air with no knuckles or anything on it (changing sway bar bushings, struts, and springs), it was very hard to move the control arms up or down from where they wanted to hang. I had to push them down -hard- just to get the knuckle back on. of course, that was new polybushings on the swaybar. So, preventing that 'bind' was my original intent behind end-linking the front bar.

[Pat]

I think the stock swaybar can in fact keep the front end from lifting due to the bushing style ends.

I know when I had my van up in the air with no knuckles or anything on it (changing sway bar bushings, struts, and springs), it was very hard to move the control arms up or down from where they wanted to hang. I had to push them down -hard- just to get the knuckle back on. of course, that was new polybushings on the swaybar. So, preventing that 'bind' was my original intent behind end-linking the front bar.

That's because the stock bar set up has a ton of bind in it, which actually reduces it's effectiveness as an actual anti roll bar. I've run with and without a sway bar and my ST's have been fairly similiar. In the Aries, my best ST with a bar is 1.64, best without is 1.66. For a dedicated drag car, I'd run without and drop the weight.

[turboshad]

Ya, that's all I could think of. So really a poorly designed/cheap sway bar system can help with front lift when drag racing. :D

[ShelGame]

Ya, that's all I could think of. So really a poorly designed/cheap sway bar system can help with front lift when drag racing. :D

Can help prevent it, you mean. In this case, I'm not so worried about lift. I actually want to free things up a bit...

[turbovanman²]

Yeah, but I want to free up the front end, IE let it lift. Hence the reason I was end-linking everything in the first place.

And, this is a purpose-built race-car, too. :p Just not as fast as Brian's...

It's got stickers and stuff, see below...

True but his is a REAL race car, :p

Why do you want it to lift? Lifting changes the toe and reduces the contact patch, this isn't RWD, :D

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------


How does a sway bar, also know as an anti roll bar, limit the front end from lifting? Through bushing friction? A sway bar is designed to limit body roll by effectively increasing the spring rate of your outside wheel. For drag racing it has no purpose unless you do something like Stramer or you need it to keep your broken control arm together like Reeves, or was that Shadow. :D

It still binds up the front end, whether its going up or down, it still acts on the control arms, :p

[ShelGame]

True but his is a REAL race car, :p

Why do you want it to lift? Lifting changes the toe and reduces the contact patch, this isn't RWD, :D[COLOR="Silver"]



I don't necessarily want it to lift. But, I want it to be free to move a little.

Toe shouldn't change with lift; camber, for sure. But, I already have the car setup for correct camber with the front end lifted. I do need to double check it though...

[thedon809]

I once tightened down the sway bar bolts on the RF control arm when it was in the air. When I put the car back down, the passenger side was jacked way up and it wouldn't go down until I loosened the bolts.

[roachjuice]

It's got stickers and stuff, see below...
Lolz.

[turbo2point2]

What kind of weight balance do you have across the fronts? Pretty even? Last time I had my car on corner scales it was about 5lbs heavy on the driver side (IIRC). I tried shimming the swaybar to even them out, but that just made the drivers side spin worse (even with a PG in the diff). Now, there's no 'extra' pre-load in it.

I guess it's easy enough to take out, and I'm going to the track this weekend for testing anyway...

It is pretty even, within 10-15 pounds i believe. I think you will like not having it there.

[ShelGame]

It is pretty even, within 10-15 pounds i believe. I think you will like not having it there.

It's off as of 5 minutes ago. Going to the track on Sunday, we'll see how it goes.

[turbovanman²]

I don't necessarily want it to lift. But, I want it to be free to move a little.

Toe shouldn't change with lift; camber, for sure. But, I already have the car setup for correct camber with the front end lifted. I do need to double check it though...

Toe changes with lift and dive, it has too. Its not as bad as the old school RWD cars but it does change, hence why blown shocks/struts cause accelerated tire wear.


It's off as of 5 minutes ago. Going to the track on Sunday, we'll see how it goes.

Of course let us know what you find out, :nod:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I say add spherical end links.

[ShelGame]

I say add spherical end links.

Your pics of your conversion was my inspiration for doing that. I was about halfway done (the bar ends are a ----- to drill). Now, I just decided to ditch, at least to try...

[BadFastGTC]

I tried a shimmed bar like Gus had done, smaller bar, smaller yet hollow bar, and no bar. Take it off for a dedicated race car.

[rosie]

What about take off on track days for cars without all them stickers? Anyone game to try that out?

[Johnny]

I thought the front bar would help in stopping wheel hop.

[ShelGame]

I thought the front bar would help in stopping wheel hop.

That's primarily what I'm concerned about with taking it off.

[ShelGame]

Well, the swaybar delete is so far inconclusive. I went to the track with the wrong cal in the car (I'd been testing the staging limiter) and so the car didn't run as well as it would have with the LKG cal. And, it didn't leave very well because the staging limiter still wasn't really working right.

Car definitely 'felt' different in the burnout box, though. I think it'd be beter if I had a real LSD (instead of the PG) or a spool.

[turbovanman²]

How different? I really don't like those PG's.

[ShelGame]

How different? I really don't like those PG's.

Felt squishy. The front end seemed to move around more (side-to-side) in the burnout box.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Felt squishy. The front end seemed to move around more (side-to-side) in the burnout box.

That's those poly bushings sliding around on the sleeves causing toe changes. The stock sway bar setup helps keep the a-arms from moving. That's good fore and aft but sucks for up and down. So spherical rod ends on the sway bar then good poly bushings to keep the a-arm from moving fore and aft.

[ShelGame]

That's those poly bushings sliding around on the sleeves causing toe changes. The stock sway bar setup helps keep the a-arms from moving. That's good fore and aft but sucks for up and down. So spherical rod ends on the sway bar then good poly bushings to keep the a-arm from moving fore and aft.

That makes a lot of sense. So, would the ES bushings be better than the PB? I was actually thinking about how I could heim joint the control arms. But, that's hard and spendy.

[GLHNSLHT2]

That makes a lot of sense. So, would the ES bushings be better than the PB? I was actually thinking about how I could heim joint the control arms. But, that's hard and spendy.


The pic in the link I posted in your other thread should answer your 1st question.

Heim jointed control arms totally rock! At the time ES didn't make poly for the 89/90 arms I tried the PB and hated them for the issues listed in the link. Went back to a stock set from the j-yard and all the issues went away. Took my spare set of arms and made up some spherical bearing solid stainless bushings for them. While making them I was reading some BMW sites about heim'ed supension parts adding a bunch of harshness to the ride and starting to get worried about what I was doing. Put them on, drove straight to the alignment shop. After getting it aligned I pulled out on the freeway and was amazed by how smooth the car road. We have huge ruts in our freeway from all the studded tire wear in the winter. It's like they weren't even there. The car went exactly where you pointed the wheel.

They are expensive and there is more maintenence but they are the sh1t. IMO the ES bushings are a good cheap alternative and the highest quality poly bushing available.

[ShelGame]

The pic in the link I posted in your other thread should answer your 1st question.

Heim jointed control arms totally rock! At the time ES didn't make poly for the 89/90 arms I tried the PB and hated them for the issues listed in the link. Went back to a stock set from the j-yard and all the issues went away. Took my spare set of arms and made up some spherical bearing solid stainless bushings for them. While making them I was reading some BMW sites about heim'ed supension parts adding a bunch of harshness to the ride and starting to get worried about what I was doing. Put them on, drove straight to the alignment shop. After getting it aligned I pulled out on the freeway and was amazed by how smooth the car road. We have huge ruts in our freeway from all the studded tire wear in the winter. It's like they weren't even there. The car went exactly where you pointed the wheel.

They are expensive and there is more maintenence but they are the sh1t. IMO the ES bushings are a good cheap alternative and the highest quality poly bushing available.

OK, so what are the 'higest quality polybushings' available? I'm only aware of the ES and PB bushings....

[turbovanman²]

OK, so what are the 'higest quality polybushings' available? I'm only aware of the ES and PB bushings....

I believe those are the only games in town.

[Johnny]

OK, so what are the 'higest quality polybushings' available? I'm only aware of the ES and PB bushings..

PB and ES both are good!!
PB ones come with new bolts and the ES ones do not.
PB ones come with the great polyLube, the ES ones do not.

GLHNSLHT2 (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/member.php?410-GLHNSLHT2) Never likes anything I make, no matter what it is.

[GLHNSLHT2]

OK, so what are the 'higest quality polybushings' available? I'm only aware of the ES and PB bushings....

The ES one's. They're cheaper than spherical heims and the PB ones but they're the best poly out there.

[GLHNSLHT2]

PB and ES both are good!!
PB ones come with new bolts and the ES ones do not.

oooh big deal, I can go down to the fasteners store and get new grade 8 bolts. The sleeves and design and durometer of the ES bushings way over compensate for not getting new bolts when it comes to the a-arm bushings.



PB ones come with the great polyLube, the ES ones do not. Another nice but not necessary item.



GLHNSLHT2 (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/member.php?410-GLHNSLHT2) Never likes anything I make, no matter what it is.

That is not true. There's things I like of yours, and things I'd like even better if they were executed the way I believe they should of been. I like your strut tower bars. I like your front motor mounts when the hole is in the correct factory location. I have 2 of those. I'd run more of your poly pass mounts if it didn't make my 5spd car vibrate to death. That's another mount where the hole isn't in the factory location so you have to remove the factory shims. No big deal but needs to be noticed and could cause issues for some if they don't realize that. I have a set of your Lbody trailing arm bushings but never got a chance to run them. But they are nice and hard. I like your Lbody rear sway bar setup but IMO it's an AutoX only mod. I like your front sway bar now that I've heard you've added bends to clear the LCA's on 89/90 cars but I think you should use that bar on the 88 and earlier cars as well since the factory bar is the same shape from the early 80's all the way to 1990. But the center bushings don't fit the kframe properly and clamp the bar down tight if you clamp the clamps tight which defeats the purpose of it. I like the kbased rear axle bushings in anything but an 86-88 big bar rear axle as those bushings are still harder than your "race" setup. But for the 89+ cars are probably much better than stock. I LOVE your alternator bushings though the sleeves are once again kind of cheesy. And I'll probably be ordering a set of bump stops from you at some point. You have the ability to get things done. I just have a different idea of what they need to turn out like. I've tried some of your products and some I like and some I don't.

I really don't like the LCA bushings. I feel strongly and with no doubt they were the cause of me almost smashing my car into a k-rail divider trying to make an off-camber corner that I'd taken hundreds of times before with stock 89/90 and stock and poly 88 earlier stub strut bushing setups. I did some thinking about what was going on with the suspension (Koni/eibach equipped with an aggressive alignment) and came to the conclusion that under braking the bushings allow the LCA to slide backwards towards the driver. When this happens you get Toe in. As an AutoX'er you should know that when you get toe in the car becomes more stable and DOESN'T WANT TO TURN. Right? I pulled the LCA's and swapped them with some stockers I got from the j-yard to tie me over and went and hit the corner again. No more wanting to go straight towards the wall. It just turns in.

So why does it want to go straight with the poly and not with the stock? Well the PB poly allows the LCA to go fore and aft or up and down only. The stock bushing allows the LCA to do the Hula so to speak. So when you get on the brakes with a stock bushing the ball joint does go back but it also toes out because it can. So even though you'll get some toe in from the steering rack pushing on the knuckle you'll get toe out from bushing flex which negates the toe in.

Don't say I don't like anything you make when you don't know. I'm just a very detail orientated person that doesn't put up with things I believe to be sub standard.

[turbovanman²]

Ok, so if that's the case, why don't you contact him and try to work out a solution?

[GLHNSLHT2]

I did with my front sway bar. As for the bushings I said screw it and built sphericals instead. When I do order a set of poly's for my new yorker they'll be ES versions.

[ShelGame]

Got pics somewhere of the spherical setup?

[ShadowFromHell]

Maybe another option, if you are trying to save weight would be a lighter bar? I read somewhere that some of the later reliant's came with hollow front bars. I haven't verified this, so I dont know if it is true. A buddy of mine parted a 89 reliant and I was supposed to get the bar but he forgot and it ended up at the scrap yard.

Are you still running the factory rear bar?

[GLHNSLHT2]

Got pics somewhere of the spherical setup?

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/v/Members+Rides/Jay+Jochec/Fabricated+Machined+Parts/Solid+Control+Arm+Bushings/ sorry for the quality. Just snapped some with the phone while in the process of making them. Made a spacer to set the bearing in, 1 per side of the joint, 4 per arm with the right offsets to keep caster stock. Then welded the spacers to the arm. I'd probably do it different now but it works well. I made a sleeve that goes between each bearing so I can clamp up on the bolts. The bearing is a tenth or two thousandths smaller than the hole they sit in so there's pretty much zero movement but I can get them out of the sleeve if I have to.