3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

[shackwrrr]

Is there a place where all the Auto trans mods (vb or internal) are together? If not we need to collect it all and post it in this thread and then post it in the new KC.

I have spent some time searching so I can do some mods to my minivan transmission. The problem I am running into is threads are referencing procedures without providing links or giving incomplete instructions. I hear a lot of "backyard VB mods" but I still haven't seen a proper how to. I found a thread talking about drilling some holes with broken image links, then I found a thread with images but no diagram and no instructions, I also found a thread about removing a ball but no mention of which one. Also it seems as if there are different ways around some of the mods like the Accumulator, VB, and governor all have multiple ways of modding.

Valve body mods: With a stock valve body what holes need drilled(with pictures), what ball needs removed(also with pictures), What to do with line pressure(can provide process for stock clutch pack or modified clutch pack), and any spring/valve mods. Any alternative separator plate drilling needs kept separate.

Governor: Springs, weights, and grinding -what maybe some pictures with some examples of what works on stock stuff.

Internal trans mods: Mainly clutch pack stuff like the 5 clutch setups and decreasing clutch pack clearance, Also race mods like pinion cup bracing and Needle bearing mods. Some of the simple stuff too like the heavy duty band strut and other mods too.

Torque Converter: Aftermarket options listed, and some stock stall speeds listed, neon torque converter and lockup instructions could help too.

Transfer gears/FD: I know there is a KC article already but if we can get it all together it would be nice

LSD installs: Some options like the OBX+ spacer, peloquin, or race spool.

Any other mods that you can think of that should be included feel free to post, I dont think any rebuild info other than clutch pack mods should be needed. If you are doing a rebuild the ATSG manual is a must ( I have a PDF somewhere Ill have to find it and post it)

I have spare clutch packs, and a valve body on my bench right now so if any pictures are needed of the mods I can provide them.

[A.J.]

Your not going to find all the information in one place. There's bits and pieces here and there that you're going to have to accumulate and decipher for yourself. As far as gathering all the information into one KC article, someone just needs the drive and time to get it done.

I didn't know squat about automatics other than what I learned in school 20 years ago. A lot is searching, reading, asking questions, trial and error. I've got it all down now except for the governor, what weights and pressures to run to get wide open throttle shifts without hitting the rev limiter. In the mean time I'm installing a manual valve body in my Dad's car so he can have fun at the track until I can figure out the governor.

A.J.

[shackwrrr]

Your not going to find all the information in one place. There's bits and pieces here and there that you're going to have to accumulate and decipher for yourself. As far as gathering all the information into one KC article, someone just needs the drive and time to get it done.

I didn't know squat about automatics other than what I learned in school 20 years ago. A lot is searching, reading, asking questions, trial and error. I've got it all down now except for the governor, what weights and pressures to run to get wide open throttle shifts without hitting the rev limiter. In the mean time I'm installing a manual valve body in my Dad's car so he can have fun at the track until I can figure out the governor.

A.J.


Why make it hard, I want to put it in one place, that's the reason I made this thread, I just wanted to make sure someone didnt have a write up already . More than one person can work on the same article, we just need to get it all together, that's the point of the KC, so it isn't like reading an FSM that went through the paper shredder.

Edit: I read my first post again and I guess I didn't make clear I wanted to consolidate everything here.

[turbovanman²]

There are numerous threads with all the info but here it is again. I think I covered it all.

Get the ATSG book, don't ATTEMPT to rebuild a trans without one, its invaluable.


This link pretty well cover it all, the Neon has a softer spring so use that or heat it up, your call. I also just run the stock plates in the rear drum or direct drum, could never get anything to hold up. I use 4 A404 steels and one A413 in the front drum to get 5 clutch discs in there.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031209062246/http://www.omniturbo.com/Mopar+Pages/Tranny%20upgrades%20detail.htm

Rob's guide to what transmission ratio's you have-

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:w--YFoXkPM8J:www.robskorner.info/faqs/Trans/a413trans.html+http://www.robskorner.info&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com


Use the reusable pan gasket, #05011113AA and install a drain plug.

Grind the low/reverse pin housing so the band will clear with the drum installed.

Get a converter from Pats, Hugh's or Coan.

Install the Sonnax rear band strut.

Do this to the line pressure-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?6084-Line-pressure-mod-in-valve-body-and-theory

Governor info, I lightened the smaller valve as I like the 1-2 shift to take a bit longer.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?62534-Governor-info-for-the-3-speeds.&highlight=governor

Welding up the case-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?16682-Auto-trans-pinion-bracing-Pictures-inside.&highlight=dcr+bracing

I just locked the pinion retainer in place so your call on that one-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?66678-Stabilizing-the-pinion-bearing-cup-A413!&highlight=spinning

Depending on HP, you'll need a custom input shaft and a matching converter-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?3746-904-input-shaft-for-A413-Supplier-listed.

Again depending on power level, you might want to look into heat treating the output shaft.

I sell a rollerized sun gear for the output shaft as due to the loading of that area, the metal thrust washer gets pounded. Around $90 plus shipping and a core is needed.

And finally, a good thread on what your asking-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?65611-So-who-is-the-resident-a413-guru&highlight=guru

[shackwrrr]

Thanks for the reply simon, I would still like to get all that info into a KC article instead of relying on the web archive.

[ShelGame]

Is the accumulator piston really the same between the 904, 727 and 413 series? This eBay add implies that it is...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Dodge-BILLET-Accumulator-Piston-46RE-47RE-47RH-48RE-A727-904-/330754946119?hash=item4d0287f447&item=330754946119&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

[speedfreek500]

I had the same problem as the OP a year ago, i had to look in many different places to find the info i needed for a ATX.

Here are some links i saved in my fav's just incaes i need them.

https://sites.google.com/site/bammerichko/
http://www.turbovan.net/Trans.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20030206233146/www.omniturbo.com/Turbo+Mopars+Home.htm

[zin]

I think this is a great idea! Especially if I don't have to do it!:o

As a thread I think it's great for no other reason than it puts all the links in one spot... As a bonus, we might even be able to discuss the merits of one mod vs another...

Mike

[shackwrrr]

I have a 4 day weekend coming up, I'll sit down and organize it all into a kc article. Anyone object to taking the info from the archived web pages and putting it here?

[turbovanman²]

Is the accumulator piston really the same between the 904, 727 and 413 series? This eBay add implies that it is...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Dodge-BILLET-Accumulator-Piston-46RE-47RE-47RH-48RE-A727-904-/330754946119?hash=item4d0287f447&item=330754946119&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

What do we need it for?

Ours isn't plastic either.

[ShelGame]

What do we need it for?

Ours isn't plastic either.

We don't. Mostly I was just curious what other parts (if any) might interchange from 904 type trans...

[wallace]

Wanted to add you really need a way to assemble the one way clutch at the rear of the case. I found an old neon case in the jy that I beat the inner race for the one way clutch out of the case, I also got the direct drum for the 5 clutches out of it. You will have a hard time getting it in there without something like that to assemble it on. I agree with Simon get the ATSG manual it gives you a step by step guide to disassemble and reassemble the transmission along with the adjustments.

[Aries_Turbo]

I have a 4 day weekend coming up, I'll sit down and organize it all into a kc article. Anyone object to taking the info from the archived web pages and putting it here?

go ahead.

i talked to joe dzwill (JDIZZ on here) at sdac this summer and he was going to try to get ahold of Carl to see if we could host his old website here cause there was even more current info after the archive we have here.

so go ahead and turn that page into a post or two or 3 or a KC article and ill see if joe got ahold of carl yet.

Brian

[thedon809]

go ahead.

i talked to joe dzwill (JDIZZ on here) at sdac this summer and he was going to try to get ahold of Carl to see if we could host his old website here cause there was even more current info after the archive we have here.

so go ahead and turn that page into a post or two or 3 or a KC article and ill see if joe got ahold of carl yet.

BrianI remember there being way more info on his site before.

[zin]

Wanted to add you really need a way to assemble the one way clutch at the rear of the case. I found an old neon case in the jy that I beat the inner race for the one way clutch out of the case, I also got the direct drum for the 5 clutches out of it. You will have a hard time getting it in there without something like that to assemble it on...

This is the kind of thing I was referring to in regards to the thread being a good place to collect/coalesce the info and tip/tricks to successful upgrades as well as limitations of stock stuff. If I recall correctly, Simon had some issues with an accumulator piston blowing out, and had to go to a billet unit to fix it.

Stuff like this is what will allow us to be successful in our builds, and help folks avoid problems.

One other thing I'd love to see in a KC article is a list of the parts/part numbers and where to get them, sort of a one stop shop for 3-speed mods...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

This is the kind of thing I was referring to in regards to the thread being a good place to collect/coalesce the info and tip/tricks to successful upgrades as well as limitations of stock stuff. If I recall correctly, Simon had some issues with an accumulator piston blowing out, and had to go to a billet unit to fix it.

Stuff like this is what will allow us to be successful in our builds, and help folks avoid problems.

One other thing I'd love to see in a KC article is a list of the parts/part numbers and where to get them, sort of a one stop shop for 3-speed mods...

Mike

Yeah, due to the higher line pressure but doing Chad's mod fix's that problem, as the pressure is normal in reverse.

[zin]

Oh, so the failure was only when it went into reverse?
What was the mod that fixed the problem?, something that limits pressure in reverse?

I understand that normally reverse gets max pressure as well as engaging the band to add some extra holding power, but figured it would be doing the same in L1 too, but I haven't dissected too many of these transmissions, so I wouldn't know for sure...

Mike

[shackwrrr]

If you spacer the spring reverse pressure can top 250psi, the mod that fixes it is the drilling the vb bleed hole for pressure. The bleed hole boosts forward line pressure but leaves reverse where it would be normally.

L1 uses the same piston but not the same pressure.

[turbovanman²]

Oh, so the failure was only when it went into reverse?
What was the mod that fixed the problem?, something that limits pressure in reverse?

I understand that normally reverse gets max pressure as well as engaging the band to add some extra holding power, but figured it would be doing the same in L1 too, but I haven't dissected too many of these transmissions, so I wouldn't know for sure...

Mike

I had a 727 spring in there out of a shift kit which jacked the line pressure, reverse uses more so if I wasn't careful or the idle was too high, it would literally snap the cast piston or blow out the seal, so I made a billet one using the stock seal and it blew that out, so I had another made with a scarf seal and no more problems. I think a year after that Chad posted up his bleed on the valve body so that piston isn't needed anymore as reverse line pressure stays the same as stock.

[zin]

Good info there! This thread, and the KC article that follows will be a gold mine for everyone, especially newbs!

Simon, or anyone that knows, that bleeder hole, I take it that it goes into the passage that normally sees that high/250psi, and this specific sized hole relieves enough flow to lower the pressure back to normal L1 pressures?...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Good info there! This thread, and the KC article that follows will be a gold mine for everyone, especially newbs!

Simon, or anyone that knows, that bleeder hole, I take it that it goes into the passage that normally sees that high/250psi, and this specific sized hole relieves enough flow to lower the pressure back to normal L1 pressures?...

Mike

What it does is affect the regulator valve and bleed off pressure in forward gears so the valve can act like it has a higher spring in front of it, so reverse see's normal pressures.

[zin]

Hmm... Looks like I'll have to bust out the fluid diagrams to properly wrap my head around this...

Mike

[Vigo]

I have a pdf of the ATSG i can email to whoever is doing the KC article or whoever just wants it.

I think a good how-to on getting that rear sprag race out of an old case and using it as an 'install tool' would be a big help. I have seen some people say just dont remove that if you dont need to, but i dont think thats a great policy and plus some people will stand up the case and it will fall out anyway and they'll need to know how to get it back in.

[turbovanman²]

I think a good how-to on getting that rear sprag race out of an old case and using it as an 'install tool' would be a big help. I have seen some people say just dont remove that if you dont need to, but i dont think thats a great policy and plus some people will stand up the case and it will fall out anyway and they'll need to know how to get it back in.

That's why I grind the case down so you can put it in then put the band on after, mucho easier.

[zin]

Maybe show both?... I always like having alternatives, especially when the way you're "supposed" to do something isn't working!

I kind of like the Simon approach, if I expect to be into the trans again, it would seem like grinding (a permanent mod) would make things easier, IF it isn't removing material that is needed.

I also like fab'ing up installer tools from old parts, especially if they save time alining things and/or making accurate measurements.

Mike

[Vigo]

That's why I grind the case down so you can put it in then put the band on after, mucho easier.

Well yeah but i still think greasing the springs and rollers in place sucks compared to sliding them off of one race and onto another. Just easier to get right.

[turbovanman²]

Well yeah but i still think greasing the springs and rollers in place sucks compared to sliding them off of one race and onto another. Just easier to get right.

Everyone is different, takes minutes to grease rollers on, install sprag, install band, but as noted, more than one way to skin a cat, :p

[shackwrrr]

Alright, I started an article and I am getting stuff from the website on there. I am at the valve body modifications and I wanted to know the reason for putting the spacer in the shuttle valve and the bypass valve.

[shackwrrr]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/knowledge.php?title=Drivetrain:2-Speed-transmission-Mods-and-Info&redirect=no there is what I have so far

[GLHS60]

Looks good but I think you are missing a speed!!!


Thanks
Randy


http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/knowledge.php?title=Drivetrain:2-Speed-transmission-Mods-and-Info&redirect=no there is what I have so far

[turbovanman²]

I would place a warning about Chads mod that it can do more harm than good on a trans that hasn't had the clutch clearance modified.

Front band is adjusted like so-tighten down snug, back off 1.5 turns.

If you have the stock trans cooler in the rad, keep it and run it with the aftermarket unit, running it too cold also damages it. Put the filter BEFORE the cooler.

[shackwrrr]

I would place a warning about Chads mod that it can do more harm than good on a trans that hasn't had the clutch clearance modified.

Front band is adjusted like so-tighten down snug, back off 1.5 turns.

If you have the stock trans cooler in the rad, keep it and run it with the aftermarket unit, running it too cold also damages it. Put the filter BEFORE the cooler.

I was going to add that if you do Chad's mod to a stock transmission you should drill smaller than .042, then start with the line pressure backed off all the way. Then bring in the clutch modifications later.

Another kc article can be made for the "matinence" things like adjusting the bands and TV cable.

What about the vans, the stock cooler is an external unit, I've never seen a failure from too cold of a transmission. I don't live in Canada either though.

Before the cooler if the cooler is new, after if it a used cooler ;)

[RoadWarrior222]

I really "don't get" using the inline filter. It's like catching debris after it's been through your transmission. I change the pickup filter every time I'm in there. I don't care if debris gets in the pan, that's what the pickup filter is for. If it clogs there, it starves everything, then you KNOW you have a problem, because it won't shift, if it clogs in the cooler line it blocks the lube supply circuit, so you have a problem (Which might not be obvious), then a lube failure a few miles later on everything at once....

[turbovanman²]

I was going to add that if you do Chad's mod to a stock transmission you should drill smaller than .042, then start with the line pressure backed off all the way. Then bring in the clutch modifications later.

Another kc article can be made for the "matinence" things like adjusting the bands and TV cable.

What about the vans, the stock cooler is an external unit, I've never seen a failure from too cold of a transmission. I don't live in Canada either though.

Before the cooler if the cooler is new, after if it a used cooler ;)

Band's and kickdown adjustments are part of the rebuild so they belong in that article. Stock front band adjustment is alot looser than what we said to use. Also, some go one notch tighter, some looser on the kickdown adjustment.

Van's didn't have rad coolers I would guess due to the heat they generate but with my old setup, it wouldn't even hit 100 deg F in the winter. If the cooler is in the rad, it helps keep the temp stable. To each their own.


I really "don't get" using the inline filter. It's like catching debris after it's been through your transmission. I change the pickup filter every time I'm in there. I don't care if debris gets in the pan, that's what the pickup filter is for. If it clogs there, it starves everything, then you KNOW you have a problem, because it won't shift, if it clogs in the cooler line it blocks the lube supply circuit, so you have a problem (Which might not be obvious), then a lube failure a few miles later on everything at once....

Ever heard of an oil filter on a car engine? The pan filter is basically to stop large bits, that's it, its a large micron filter, the inline is smaller to catch the finer metal particles that do the most harm.

[zin]

I really "don't get" using the inline filter. It's like catching debris after it's been through your transmission...

Its main purpose is to keep from trashing your cooler. A lot of coolers will have internal fins or turbulators which love to catch and hide nasty bits until you've rebuilt the trans, then jump out and kill it!

Of course the "pro" solution to that problem is to replace the cooler after a failure, but being we don't normally operate on a "pro" budget, the in-line filter is the next best thing.

Mike

[Vigo]

The inline filter definitely serves a purpose. Like keeping your failing converter from filling your valve body full of tiny particles and sticking your governor and throttle valve. :p

[RoadWarrior222]

Ahhh, having suffered gunged up valve bodies that's starting to make sense now... I didn't realise they were meant to be high micron.... still would worry about blocking it up, unless it was piss easy to change out/clean.

[Vigo]

If you use a magnetic filter there is not a way to flush that stuff out of there. If anything i would be changing it if i had reason to believe the trans was making metal and it was going into the filter.

[RoadWarrior222]

Well it makes small particles off the frictions all the time, that's what worries me, especially with a fine filter, to my mind it needs as much flow as engine oil and possibly a filter just as large for same service interval.... otherwise, restriction then lube failure.

BTW I've flushed my cooler since it has radius bends, not end tanks.

[turbovanman²]

The filter is meant to be replaced at intervals or if your prudent and race, maybe every month? Anyhow, you'll know its plugging up as you'll notice your temp get hotter due to the lack of flow but it should never get that bad, :p

[zin]

....to my mind it needs as much flow as engine oil and possibly a filter just as large for same service interval.... otherwise, restriction then lube failure.

You'd be correct in that, in fact, the older Saturns had a spin-on filter on the trans case, something I always liked about them, but they still need something on the sump to spare the pump should garbage be produced, as that's going to be sucked up and run through the pump "first thing"...

I like the idea of an external filter and will likely incorporate one in the future, once I'm making enough power to break something! ;)

Mike

[Aries_Turbo]

subies have a really fine brass (i think) screen on the sump pickup and a spin on filter on the side of the case. they say if the trans slips or needs a rebuild, flush the screen and replace the spin on filter.

Brian

[shackwrrr]

mechdb.com/index.php/Chrysler_A413_transmission_valve_body_modification s

[turbovanman²]

If that's a link, its no good.

[ShelGame]

looks like it should be this - http://mechdb.com/index.php/Chrysler_A413_transmission_valve_body_modification s

[shackwrrr]

looks like it should be this - http://mechdb.com/index.php/Chrysler_A413_transmission_valve_body_modification s

Thats it, thanks. I wanted to put it here since it had better explanation and pictures for the mods.

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

My next question is, what is an acceptable pressure for stock clutch packs? A 1/32 hole in the valve body and the screw backed off all the way should be a decent start point, probably around 100 psi? Would 100psi be fine for loose clutch packs?

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

I am still looking for pictures of the 5 clutch mod with 404 steels, and specifics on removing the wavy ring in the rear clutch and tightening it.

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 PM ----------

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63000-Auto-trans-What-do-you-guys-do-to-your-clutch-s-for-extra-discs&highlight=clutch+pack

[turbovanman²]

My next question is, what is an acceptable pressure for stock clutch packs? A 1/32 hole in the valve body and the screw backed off all the way should be a decent start point, probably around 100 psi? Would 100psi be fine for loose clutch packs?

I feel that the bleed hole is a bad idea for stock tranny's, the extra force could blow the clutch's due to the excessive clearance and it will bend the stock rear band strut-been there, got the badge, lol. I currently run 1/16 hole and have the line pressure adjustment just under half, it shifts firm but doesn't rattle your teeth.


I am still looking for pictures of the 5 clutch mod with 404 steels, and specifics on removing the wavy ring in the rear clutch and tightening it.

Carls site shows the clutch doesn't it, all your doing is adding the steels and fibres, then adding the snap ring, NO wave ring and checking clearance. I'll see if I have enough parts kicking around to mock something up.

[RoadWarrior222]

I thought the rear band strut bent with excessive pressure in reverse, which the bleed hole mod is supposed to avoid. So telling people not to do the mod that avoids the problem that other methods (strong spring , nut shim etc) cause is kinda dumb.

[turbovanman²]

I thought the rear band strut bent with excessive pressure in reverse, which the bleed hole mod is supposed to avoid. So telling people not to do the mod that avoids the problem that other methods (strong spring , nut shim etc) cause is kinda dumb.

The line pressure causes the arm to apply with more force and faster, so the thin metal strut rod will simply bend over time. The line pressure mod jacks up line pressure. Chad's mod does bypass's reverse getting getting full line pressure like if you crank the regulator spring but its still gets more than stock, enough to bend the rod, which I've done in testing, lol, and that band also comes on in LO, so now, its getting a ton more line pressure.

[shackwrrr]

The site shows the lathe modded pressure plates in the clutch pack not the 404 set up.

What is an OK pressure with stock clutches. 90? 100? I guess I can move the drill mod to after the clutch mods.

[turbovanman²]

The site shows the lathe modded pressure plates in the clutch pack not the 404 set up.

What is an OK pressure with stock clutches. 90? 100? I guess I can move the drill mod to after the clutch mods.

Not sure, I ran simply alot more line pressure on a stock tranny for a year or so but not with Chad's mod, just cranking the reg spring. Others say its fine, others had issues, guess its one of those things. :(

[Aries_Turbo]

simon didnt you have some manual valve body mod info? this is a good thread for that. I know carl's site had it but we dont have web archive snapshots of the later iterations of his site...

Brian

[turbovanman²]

simon didnt you have some manual valve body mod info? this is a good thread for that. I know carl's site had it but we dont have web archive snapshots of the later iterations of his site...

Brian

Yes, I'll copy it and post up.

[Aries_Turbo]

hurry up.....

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

ideally we should add carls site format to this thread too. host the images in a post from this server and paste the text in. who knows how long webarchive will keep it alive...

[RoadWarrior222]

Webarchive seems to be in it for the long haul, BUT things can go inaccessible when a spammer buys a domain for residuals and then puts a robots.txt file in the root directory forbidding crawling, then even though they don't own the stuff that was on the domain 3,5, 10 years ago, webarchive has to honor the block. Apparently they still allow access to "researchers" to those sites and still have them backed up, but block them from the public.

[turbovanman²]

hurry up.....

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

ideally we should add carls site format to this thread too. host the images in a post from this server and paste the text in. who knows how long webarchive will keep it alive...

Bite me Bucar, :D

Get Frank to host it, we've been down this road many times already.

[guhfluh]

Simon,

Do you have DIY FMVB info similar to Carl B's how to or something else like the Superior kit? Or is it info on a RMVB like TurboAction Cheetah non-lockup or a RMVB with lockup like Chad Killback's?

[Aries_Turbo]

Bite me Bucar, :D

Get Frank to host it, we've been down this road many times already.

email it to me. ill host it.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

email it to me. ill host it.

Brian

Carls site, not the mvb paper. I'll still send it to you.

[ShadowFromHell]

Looks good, this has needed to be done for YEARS. I dont know how many times Ive wanted to put a shift kit in my NY, read on it and got so confused with new/old conflicting information I just left it alone.

I didn't notice one thing I would love to see added, I know if you block off the shuttle valves you cant use the normal ports to check line pressure. Id love to see something added on how to check the line pressure after blocking off the shuttle valve and the correct way to check it.

Thanks guys!

[turbovanman²]

Looks good, this has needed to be done for YEARS. I dont know how many times Ive wanted to put a shift kit in my NY, read on it and got so confused with new/old conflicting information I just left it alone.

I didn't notice one thing I would love to see added, I know if you block off the shuttle valves you cant use the normal ports to check line pressure. Id love to see something added on how to check the line pressure after blocking off the shuttle valve and the correct way to check it.

Thanks guys!

That isn't true, blocking the accumulator does that but you simply use another port to check, not a big deal.

[ShadowFromHell]

Could you add something on what port to use then? Another thing I think would be cool to have on there is where/how or at least a picture of how you guys drill the side of the case to adjust the line pressure without dropping the pan. It may be stupid simple, but a pic would be great.

[turbovanman²]

Could you add something on what port to use then? Another thing I think would be cool to have on there is where/how or at least a picture of how you guys drill the side of the case to adjust the line pressure without dropping the pan. It may be stupid simple, but a pic would be great.

I can do that.

[Bardo]

Has/can someone post up a parts list and a location of parts? Mainly the clutches and steels.

[turbovanman²]

Has/can someone post up a parts list and a location of parts? Mainly the clutches and steels.

Too many suppliers, but there are a few people post up, if I remember later, I'll find them or I am sure others remember and can post up.

[crusty shadow]

i picked up an N/A trans today, going back this weekend to grab a neon trans for the internals.
waiting to see more info on this thread so i can order clutches bands, steels etc, i have no idea where to order them from.

[ShadowFromHell]

Even if it was just a part number list, not necessarily a link to a supplier would be great. Give us the part numbers and we could track them down ourselves. I am really excited about this, as Ive wanted to learn more about modding auto's for a long time but the info was really spread out and some of it was contradictory. That, and if things go as plan I will be needed a nice built auto by the middle of next race season :).

[Bardo]

I love this idea as I need 2 trans built.

[135sohc]

Even if it was just a part number list, not necessarily a link to a supplier would be great. Give us the part numbers and we could track them down ourselves. I am really excited about this, as Ive wanted to learn more about modding auto's for a long time but the info was really spread out and some of it was contradictory. That, and if things go as plan I will be needed a nice built auto by the middle of next race season :).

We can put together a listing of certain hard parts that can only be had from the dealership but for alot of the individual pieces like clutches/steels/seals ect everyone puts their own part number on them that it wouldnt really be effective as its so subject to change.

http://www.bulkpart.com/ http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/ <<<these are both the same company.
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/


Those 3 links will cover most of the general piecemeal items if your not looking to buy a complete kit or want to mix and match.

http://www.sonnax.com/ they make alot of the specialty 'repair' items, mostly VB related.


http://www.transtar1.com/ They supply mostly pre-made kits.

http://www.altousa.com/ Not a direct retailer, they do have a catalog with part numbers if your looking for specific things.

[jefo]

I tried something new that seemed to work very well. On the stock throttle body (46mm on 89 voyager turbo) there is a rod next to the groove where the trans cable hooks up. I cut this off and drilled it out to the right size so the trans cable could be mounted there. Then I adjusted the cable so that at wot it would still pull the cable all of the way.

Due to the new leverage ratio, it makes the part throttle shifts higher without changing the wot shifts. The trans a lot more reactive to throttle inputs, kind of like sport mode in newer cars.

[zin]

I tried something new that seemed to work very well. On the stock throttle body (46mm on 89 voyager turbo) there is a rod next to the groove where the trans cable hooks up. I cut this off and drilled it out to the right size so the trans cable could be mounted there. Then I adjusted the cable so that at wot it would still pull the cable all of the way.

Due to the new leverage ratio, it makes the part throttle shifts higher without changing the wot shifts. The trans a lot more reactive to throttle inputs, kind of like sport mode in newer cars.

Can't quite visualize this... Post a picture?..

Mike

[jefo]

The rod I cut off and drilled a hole in its place is the shaft that sticks out to the left, further than anything else in this pic:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/115/img1653y.jpg

[zin]

Sorry to be so picky, but can you shoot it from the side? I'm liking that it looks factory in that picture...

From what you were saying, it sounds like it improves driveability/performance but otherwise acts "normal".

Mike

[jefo]

Here is a photo of the cable pivot repositioned:

http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/9024205/

[zin]

Thanks! That should help quite a bit.

Mike

[shackwrrr]

Ok finally got around to installing my modded valve body and I have a slight problem. If I manually shift from a stop I get Low/reverse band overlap when shifting to second. It does a quick bind then its fine, no problem in manual 2nd or D.

I did the following to my valve body (neon unit)

Rod in shuttle valve
Ball in bypass valve
Drilled 2 holes to 1/8
left ball out
Drilled .046 bleed hole
Pressure reg turned 5 turns from all the way loose
Adjusted band (snug>1.5)
Blocked accumulator

I peeked in an checked out the rear clutch and it did not have a wave snap ring and was very tight.
second gear band was very loose when I first pulled pan.

[RoadWarrior222]

IIRC it does the apply sequence a tad different, when it's manually shifted from 1, but don't have the ATSG or FSM mans on hand to check right now.

[zin]

Manually shifting applies the low /reverse band for extra holding power in first (IIRC) .

Might affect the timing of the elements as they are applied and released. Could make some overlap ...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Manually shifting applies the low /reverse band for extra holding power in first (IIRC) .

Might affect the timing of the elements as they are applied and released. Could make some overlap ...

Mike


Yep, could be the rear band is too tight or too loose. Clutch free play won't matter as your going from 1-2, the rear clutch is applied on both gears.

[crusty shadow]

i found a link to a .pdf of the ATSG for the a413 that you can download for free http://213.174.154.66/document.php?file=385814&desc=ATGS+Torqueflight+A404+A413+A415+A470+.pdf the site also has .pdf files for the A670, a-727, a-904, 40, 41,42 series transmissions as well as other manufacturers if you search around the site. http://docs.rapidlibrary.com/index.php?q=ATSG

[shackwrrr]

I ended up getting out of autos, thought it would be an interesting change but with a crappy converter it was just like driving a cvt. If anyone wants to contribute or change anything on the KC article I am pretty sure I left it public.

[joesf]

Sounds like you had more than a crappy converter if it felt like cvt

[shackwrrr]

Sounds like you had more than a crappy converter if it felt like cvt

Transmission had all the valve body mods done to it, Alto red eagle clutches, and line pressure was jacked up. You could feel it bang gears but the RPM would no change. The converter wasn't really at fault, the previous owner ordered a 4500 stall converter for a van and I was constantly under the stall point so all shifts were soaked up by the converter.

[RoadWarrior222]

A standard converter is sort of like a CVT if you hold it at the right RPM... obviously lower than 4500, around 2200ish

[Kryp2nitE]

Are any of you guys breaking the 300m 904 inputs? I know zero about the 3 speed autos for higher HP in these cars but TCS Canada makes Aermet Input shafts for the A618 and I bet they could do them for the 904 too if there was interest. It wasn't much more than the 300m either.

[crusty shadow]

Transmission had all the valve body mods done to it, Alto red eagle clutches, and line pressure was jacked up. You could feel it bang gears but the RPM would no change. The converter wasn't really at fault, the previous owner ordered a 4500 stall converter for a van and I was constantly under the stall point so all shifts were soaked up by the converter. a 4500 stall is WAY too high for any car being driven on the street, let alone a daily driver. from personal experience 3000 rpm stall is about the limit of what you can realistically drive on the street. even that is pushing it, anything over 3000 rpm should be considered "race only" as it will be terrible to drive around town, even worse on the highway. keep in mind Stephane's car runs around 4500-5000 stall if you've seen any of the in car vids from his 8 second passes. none of us, with the exception of Brian's BSX are running a car that is as radically modified compared to Stephane's Charger.

[joesf]

Are any of you guys breaking the 300m 904 inputs? .

I don't know if you know RacerStev but he's built some nice transmissions and when talking to him about building one for a 600 HP he said he recommended the 300m input and anything over 400-450 also I wouldn't break it at that lvl. I've never heard of anyone breaking one but most guys I keep up with running decent HP numbers aren't running an ATX, maybe like 3.

[ShadowFromHell]

Acutally in the TM world Joesf the auto reigns supreme. There are way more 12 second and faster auto cars then stick cars. Actually I can only think of 2 stick cars in the 10's.

[Kryp2nitE]

Acutally in the TM world Joesf the auto reigns supreme. There are way more 12 second and faster auto cars then stick cars. Actually I can only think of 2 stick cars in the 10's.

Not according to http://www.turbo-mopartimes.com/

[shackwrrr]

a 4500 stall is WAY too high for any car being driven on the street, let alone a daily driver. from personal experience 3000 rpm stall is about the limit of what you can realistically drive on the street. even that is pushing it, anything over 3000 rpm should be considered "race only" as it will be terrible to drive around town, even worse on the highway. keep in mind Stephane's car runs around 4500-5000 stall if you've seen any of the in car vids from his 8 second passes. none of us, with the exception of Brian's BSX are running a car that is as radically modified compared to Stephane's Charger.


I looked back at the specs and its 38-4200 but I was running it in a heavy van, pushing it to 4500. Remember, you own that converter now lol.

[joesf]

Acutally in the TM world Joesf the auto reigns supreme. There are way more 12 second and faster auto cars then stick cars. Actually I can only think of 2 stick cars in the 10's.

Yeah I realize, I don't keep up with anyone in the turbo dodge forums that's why I said 3 of what I keep up with. Researching the ATX is the only reason I'm here. I know you guys use it a lot more frequently and know it's ins and outs.

[turbovanman²]

Are any of you guys breaking the 300m 904 inputs? I know zero about the 3 speed autos for higher HP in these cars but TCS Canada makes Aermet Input shafts for the A618 and I bet they could do them for the 904 too if there was interest. It wasn't much more than the 300m either.

They are already available. Not sure any Turbo-mopar guy has broken any input shafts, I haven't yet pusing over 400whp and a pig van but I've broken almost everything else at some point, :lol:


I looked back at the specs and its 38-4200 but I was running it in a heavy van, pushing it to 4500. Remember, you own that converter now lol.

I have run a 4500 stall and it was great at the track but awful on the town, so I had it built with a LU and that fixed the highway driving. I have a lower stall Hugh's unit but I've broken that one, so its going back for warranty, even though it was a lower stall, she still slipped and the LU again fixed that until the LU broke. A stock stal Neon converter was the best but then I couldn't get my turbo to stall with my setup, :(

[John B]

I'm using a Hughes beefed up towing converter with a lower than stock stall. Love it, but mine's street only.

[turbovanman²]

I'm using a Hughes beefed up towing converter with a lower than stock stall. Love it, but mine's street only.

I killed mine, :(

[John B]

I killed mine, :(

What kind are you using now?

[shackwrrr]

I was talking to a buddy that builds beefy diesel transmissions and the subject of torque converters came up. He told me that every transmission they build leaves the door with a mandatory Billet converter. He said the way a normal converter is made, the drive lugs (where you bolt the flex plate) are welded on. The welding process creates hard spots in the front of the converter, this is also where the lockup clutch rides. As the lockup plates engage and disengage they tear themselves to pieces on the hard spots, this creates the converter that pukes metal.

This explains why so many have issues with lockup converters, are there anyone making billet converters for the fwd's?

[joesf]

Several companies make billet converters for fwd transmissions

[shackwrrr]

Several companies make billet converters for fwd transmissions

I meant our fwd's.

[joesf]

I meant our fwd's.

Again several

[Vigo]

The high stall converter i had in my intrepid had a billet front cover. That was done by Precision. Cant say that was the best converter but it did what i wanted it to. A 606 converter is extremely similar to a 604 converter which is extremely similar to a 413 converter. Enough that you can put a 413 converter in a 604. Anyway i agree there are probably several companies that will do a billet front cover for these converters. I dont think that cover is the main thing that needs to be upgraded, though. As far as i know, the billet cover is just to make it less likely that the converter distorts under high line pressure or lockup clutch load. Building something that has a very progressive stall at the rpm you want, and not all-or-nothing or missing your stall number or slipping too much at high rpm, is some kind of magic that happens in fin angles or some such.

[turbovanman²]

Company in New Brunswick made a few billet converters for a guy, it slipped badly, last I heard, they were trying to fix it.

[Ondonti]

Saw on srtforums that Red Sled is still having converter problems. He recently ordered 3 billet converters, each from a different company. Trying to find one that achieves the high stall he wants without excess slipping. I believe this is after having exhausted the resources of our normal go to guys to satisfy what he wants.

[joesf]

He is in a while different class that guy is trying to run low 7s

[Kryp2nitE]

Again several

What does a good billet converter cost for the 413?

[joesf]

Not sure never see a price listed so my guess is too much for me

[turbovanman²]

I paid $500 for my HUgh's LU converter and killed it in a few months, have to get it back for warranty, it has one year and its almost up, :(

[joesf]

The converter in general or just during lockup

[ShelGame]

What does a good billet converter cost for the 413?

Don't know about billet, but my 9" ATI was $700...

[turbovanman²]

Both, the LU stopped working then it wouldn't stall at the line then it started really slipping on the highway.

[joesf]

I know you DD it but have you ever tried a non lock up

[turbovanman²]

I switched to a LU a few years ago, couldn't stand the high highway rpm, the LU fix's it and makes it a nicer highway cruiser.

[joesf]

Yeah I figured that's why you went to a LU, how did the nonLU compare in longevity

[Vigo]

If you arent trying to lock up the torque converter clutch under high loads, it shouldnt have any effect on the longevity of the rest of the converter.

[A.J.]

I'm building an A413 from a non-Lock-Up to a Lock-Up. I've never done this before. I've only built a non-LU and stayed non-LU or a LU and stayed LU. All I need to convert to a LU is the valve body with solenoid (I got the whole valve body because I didn't know what valves and springs are needed), the input shaft, drill the case for the solenoid, and the LU converter. Correct? I just want to double check before I start putting this thing together.

I figured I'd ask this here instead of starting another thread to try to keep it all in one place so if someone wants to look it up later it'll be easy to find.

[Vigo]

Since the input shaft is part of a clutch drum, it's worth pointing out that you should always try to get the clutch drum with the higher snap ring groove so you can fit a larger clutch pack. That might rule out all the TBI lockup trans as good input shaft donors.

[A.J.]

Since the input shaft is part of a clutch drum, it's worth pointing out that you should always try to get the clutch drum with the higher snap ring groove so you can fit a larger clutch pack. That might rule out all the TBI lockup trans as good input shaft donors.

That is false. The input shaft is removable. It's held in with a snap ring. I've had to remove a worn out input shaft to keep my higher snap-ring groove drum in the past. I did get the higher snap-ring groove drum with my LU input shaft for this build.

[135sohc]

Maybe I am thinking of RWD only here but is the pump/stator support different between LU and non LU in the FWD unit ?

[Vigo]

That is false. The input shaft is removable. It's held in with a snap ring. I've had to remove a worn out input shaft to keep my higher snap-ring groove drum in the past. I did get the higher snap-ring groove drum with my LU input shaft for this build.

Good call. I never separated them when i did it for a living and havent had to build one in several years (mostly because i keep swapping them out for 5spds, like i did to a shelby lancer last month). My memory is very 'use it or lose it', unfortunately.

[Vigo]

Im considering doing a lockup conversion on my 88 Lancer Shelby, so... any more recommendations/clarifications? Does AJs list cover it?

[wallace]

That is false. The input shaft is removable. It's held in with a snap ring. I've had to remove a worn out input shaft to keep my higher snap-ring groove drum in the past. I did get the higher snap-ring groove drum with my LU input shaft for this build.

I'd need to re-read the ATSG manual but if you are swapping input shafts to match the converter you also need to swap in the correct pump assembly..there may be another piece you're supposed to swap with it.

[A.J.]

I'd need to re-read the ATSG manual but if you are swapping input shafts to match the converter you also need to swap in the correct pump assembly..there may be another piece you're supposed to swap with it.

That's why I posted the question:


All I need to convert to a LU is the valve body with solenoid (I got the whole valve body because I didn't know what valves and springs are needed), the input shaft, drill the case for the solenoid, and the LU converter. Correct? I just want to double check before I start putting this thing together.


I'm building an A413 from a non-Lock-Up to a Lock-Up for the first time. I've never done this before. I've only built a non-LU and stayed non-LU or a LU and stayed LU. I'm trying to hear from someone who's done the conversion, not just speculation.

[wallace]

ok, I got out the ATSG manual and it is still a little confusing to me but here goes. There are 3 different pump assemblies, 1978-85, 1986-99, 1999-present. There are 3 different Forward clutch housings, 1978-85, 1986 only, and 1987-present. There are 3 different input shafts but they don't break them down. The input shaft you need should have 3 small sealing rings on it the third added ring is for the lockup function. The pump was changed in 99 to a gerotor design and looks to be superior to the previous offerings. The 99 and later pump, input shaft, and clutch are a dime a dozen in the wrecking yards. I would source all of those components from the same transmission and take the converter to use as a core for when you have the new one built. The manual states that the 99' and later assembly is backwards compatible. Hope that helps.

[A.J.]

ok, I got out the ATSG manual and it is still a little confusing to me but here goes. There are 3 different pump assemblies, 1978-85, 1986-99, 1999-present. There are 3 different Forward clutch housings, 1978-85, 1986 only, and 1987-present. There are 3 different input shafts but they don't break them down. The input shaft you need should have 3 small sealing rings on it the third added ring is for the lockup function. The pump was changed in 99 to a gerotor design and looks to be superior to the previous offerings. The 99 and later pump, input shaft, and clutch are a dime a dozen in the wrecking yards. I would source all of those components from the same transmission and take the converter to use as a core for when you have the new one built. The manual states that the 99' and later assembly is backwards compatible. Hope that helps.

I'm not going to the junk yard to source these parts. I got them delivered: used LU input shaft, used LU valve body, and new LU converter. That's why I'm asking if there is anything else I need to make this conversion because I'm starting with a non-LU transmission and am ordering the parts I need, not going to the junk yard grabbing/comparing what I need.

[wallace]

Yes, you will need the matching pump and forward clutch housing for your input shaft. Added the attachment not sure if it will be big enough to read though.

[A.J.]

I converted my first non-lock-up A413 to a lock-up. Since I still wasn't sure from my last post and had to convert my Dad's wagon (3200 RPMs at 70 mph) I successfully did it. You need a LU input shaft, LU solenoid and electrical plug, one spring for the valve body (it's better to grab a LU valve body), LU converter, and drill a hole in the case. The pumps are the same and the valve bodies are the same except for the LU solenoid and one spring.

When drilling the case, you want to use cutting oil otherwise you'll tear up the aluminum. I drilled the case with all the guts still inside. It was tricky to keep the aluminum chips out of the trans but I did it. I had it bolted to an engine stand so I could rotate the trans at the right angle so the chips wouldn't fall into the trans.

Right now I have the solenoid hooked up to a switch. Eventually I'll have it hooked up so the computer will turn it on like in my van. It took me 7 1/2 hours to pull the trans, modify it, put it back in, and wire it up (switch only).

You can see the spring that needs to be added to a non-LU valve body to make it lock up. Top picture is LU and lower is non-LU.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/IMG_1440_zps27378e78.jpg (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/thebest4/media/IMG_1440_zps27378e78.jpg.html)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/IMG_1439_zps62c3345c.jpg (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/thebest4/media/IMG_1439_zps62c3345c.jpg.html)

[Vigo]

Nice! I always wondered the extent of the differences to the valve body. Looks like not much!

[Loudexploder]

I wanted to add some new info for everyone. This is regarding whats called full time lube modification.

The pump/pressure regulator valve and converter charge/lube oil follow in sequence and are literally connected in series. A change in any one of these areas has a direct consequence in others. At start-up, the pressure regulator moves into its regulating position when there is enough oil pressure on the balance area of the valve to overcome spring forces. Once the pump creates enough line pressure to move the pressure regulator valve into its regulating position, the PR valve then directs excess pump volume to exhaust or back to the intake/suction side of the pump. The PR is "in balance" when there is enough pressure to keep the PR valve in its regulating position. It is "out of balance" when there is not enough oil pressure to keep the PR valve in its regulating position.

The pressure regulator valve also controls the volume of oil that is fed to the torque converter: This, in turn, has a direct effect on converter release/fill pressure, cooling, and lubrication. In controlling converter feed, the PR valve is a type of priority valve. That is, it gives more priority to line pressure and less priority to converter/lube pressure. For the PR valve to remain in balance (with the converter circuit open), the forces at both ends of the valve must be near equal. If the PR valve stays out of balance for extended amounts of time, converter/lube oil will be restricted. Once this critical threshold is crossed and the PR valve is out of balance for any length of time, everything falls apart.

Most of us have seen while pressure testing that slight needle twitch or momentary pressure drop when shifting. If you watch line pressure and cooler flow at the same time, when line pressure drops, you will see a corresponding change in cooler flow. This is because the pressure drop makes it all the way back to the balance end of the PR valve, and the forces at the other end of the PR valve overcome the reduced balance/line oil pressure and the PR valve moves out of balance. This restricts converter charge and the oil being re-circulated to the intake side of the pump. Converter charge is restricted, and priority is given to line pressure until it returns to the level that is sufficient to move the PR valve back to its in-balance regulating position. When everything is healthy and normal, this happens in an instant and is the way the system is supposed to work. Problems begin when the PR valve stays out of balance for extended periods of time. The priority valve characteristic means that if the PR valve is near that critical balance threshold, converter charge and lube oil are restricted. In effect, it's choking off the oil flow, ultimately leading to converter overheating. Problems at either end of the PR valve can put it out of balance. One end of the PR valve can have too much spring pressure, putting extra load on the pump. At the other end, there may not be enough balance pressure due to leaks or a weak pump.

Picture a diesel truck lugging a load up a long incline: RPMs are low and desired line pressure is high. If pump output cannot maintain line pressure, the PR valve will move out of balance. Remember, the PR gives priority to line pressure, so it is conceivable under these circumstances to have near normal line pressure (and clutch holding capacity), but little or no cooler/lube flow due to the PR being out of balance. Imagine watching cooler flow drop off to nothing right at this critical time! I know you have seen the results melted planets or the converter paint burned and peeling off. Whether a low 60 psi at idle or 160 psi under load, the specific line pressure is not as significant as the pump's ability to maintain that line pressure and keep the PR valve in balance in its regulating position. crescent-type pumps, are more of a concern because they are fixed displacement and have lower output at low RPM and idle speeds.

The pump's ability to maintain desired line pressure and keep the PR valve in balance also has variables. You can have a good pump but leaks in other oil circuits inside the transmission will consume oil pump volume and reduce the pump’s ability to create pressure. On the other hand, no internal leaks plus a worn or inefficient pump will exhibit the same problem maintaining line pressure. Think in terms of an air compressor volume/CFM and air tools. The compressor's ability to maintain pressure is related to how many air tools you run at the same time. Too many air tools and your compressor will not have enough CFM (volume) to maintain pressure, and air pressure will drop below its normal range. Pump volume is needed to maintain pressure: Pressure is needed to keep the PR valve in balance. Internal leaks throughout the transmission waste pump volume. All those little leaks which build up over time end up consuming available pump volume and reducing the pump's ability to build/maintain line pressure, keeping the PR valve in balance.

This full time lube modification is adding an oil path between the line pressure and converter feed circuits, kind of bypassing the PR valve, so even if the PR valve is out of balance, there is always an oil path for oil to enter the converter feed circuit. This hole needs to be .060 drilling this hole too large allows too much oil to the converter, leading to over pressurizing and converter drain back so don’t drill any larger than .060. You may ask why do this, well if you haven’t gather that info from what I’ve written then lets break it down. What good is line pressure if you have very little to no oil lubricating the moving parts of the transmission, low cooler flow, and low flow of fluid to the converter? You get excess heat buildup in the fluid which we all know is probably the number one killer of transmissions. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220206/ef55af39c6070ad36201abcb42ef8833.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ohiorob]

interesting. whats the down side? has anyone tried this?