Overheating Spirit R/T

[89FerrariShelby]

Ok, so i'll spare you the details, but shortly after my Murano went down the tubes I started dailying the Daytona, then that kicked the bucket (small problem, but i still have to fix it to drive). As a last resort I moved on to dailying the R/T.... and almost immediately I noticed it was suddenly overheating....like all the way to the H in stopped traffic overheating. Taking the cap off the radiator showed it was full, but the resevior was empty so I filled it. Same problem....resevior was empty again so i filled it a 2nd (and eventually a 3rd time) to no avail (and i'm not seeing any drainage when its parked).

So somebody please tell me this doesn't mean what i think it does (and give me another possibility as to why this car is overheating, I cant take another 90 degree day driving with the heat on).

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/photobucket-19656-1344910524849.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/photobucket-19720-1344910495691.jpg

three cars.....three problems....(and they're all different so i can't borrow parts lol)...i think it might be time to consolidate...

[Pat]

Does it overheat at speed or only in traffic? Is the fan working?

[89FerrariShelby]

It can creep up on the highway, but it typically stays down around the 1st hash at highway speeds. I have seen it creep up to the 3rd hash on the highway at about 65 but that's rare....

the real overheating occurs when its not moving. The fan does kick on (i typically wait for it to finish before shutting the car off when i reach a destination), though in my completely unexpert opinion i think it isn't kicking on while the car is "moving" (even a little bit) and is waiting too long to do so. Maybe the thermostat is sticking?

[Pat]

Next time it starts to get hot, bring the rpms up some and see what happens. If the fan is running, it could be a flow problem caused by a bad stat or even a waterpump. Sometimes with a sticky stat or a slowly dying waterpump, bringing the rpms up helps move the coolant and cools the motor.

I doubt its a headgasket or the rad since it runs ok on the highway. Plus, that hg is relatively new.

[89FerrariShelby]

I was hoping it wasn't the hg, but someone told me i'd see something in the oil if it was, and those bubbles scared me.

Ok, i'm sure it will get hot again tomorrow, i'll give it a shot.

I dont think i articulated it well, but i'm not sure that the fan is running when the car is moving.... that is to say unless i come to a complete stop at the exact right time, i wont hear the fan kick on no matter how hot it gets, even if the car is just barely idling in 1st gear (my way of trying to keep it cool, it failed). But once i stop, and it gets high enough, the fan will finally kick on.

I will definitely try revving it up a bit and post back...Thanks Pat, I appreciate the input!

[89FerrariShelby]

Ok, when you say bring the RPM's up...how high? On my way in this morning it started overheating, so i popped it in neutral and revved it to 2500, no luck. Then a little later when it was starting to get really hot, i tried again up to 3000, it just kept getting hotter. It finally started going down, but then I heard the fan, so i'm not sure it was the revving.

should i replace the thermostat/waterpump? are they hard to find/do?

[spork]

Are you using your gauge to tell its getting hot, or have you verified its actually getting hot? With the stock computer it'll get pretty toasty before the fan kicks in. Mine kicks in at the mark just past center on the gauge. If I remember right, its around 212 or 214 degrees. If you had some way to verify its actually overheating with a scanner or secondary gauge, it would be helpful. If it made it the "H" it was pretty darn hot, and my guess is that you very well may have an air bubble in the system. I had similar problems with my r/t. I ended up putting a new t-stat and water pump and still had the problem. What finally cured it was drilling a very small hole in the t-stat and making sure it orientated in the up position. Bleed the coolant system by pulling the sensor on top of the t-stat housing, fill the radiator to coolant runs out the sensor hole and screw it back in. Top of the coolant and run the car.

If the car is still using coolant after that it's either leaking it, or eating it. If it still has the original turbo and watercooled center section, you may have a leak back there and not necessarily notice it. Borrow a radiator pressure tester from the local auto parts store and pressurize your coolant system. Try it with your engine hot, and also try it with your engine cold if you don't find a leak. It has to be going somewhere.

[turbovanman²]

Unplug the coolant sensor and see if the rad fan comes on. If its fine on the highway but overheating in traffic its usually a fan problem.

[tryingbe]

A old/weak radiator cap would allow coolant to be empty in the reservoir when engine is warm/hot.

Unless your oil have coolant in it, it's fine.


Though, what you're seeing could be a combination of your radiator cap not working correctly and you are not familiar seeing the temp gauge with a factory fan schedule.

For a 91 TIII, below 36mph, fan is schedule to turn on at 223.97 degree and turn off at 216.47 degree.
Above 44mph, fan is schedule to turn on at 230.23 degree and turn off at 223.97 degree.

[black86glhs]

I would replace the T-stat and radiator cap, unless you have a cooling system tester. Cheap and easy things to do.
Also, when it gets hot and you are not in traffic(like at your house), Carefully feel the radiator, starting at the bottom. If it is cold or cool to the touch, slowly move up the radiator until it is hot. If your more than 1/4 of the way up the rad, it may be adding to it.

[89FerrariShelby]

I know I know, months later and i'm just getting to this. But when I was trying to diagnose the heating issue the car developed an electrical gremlin that made me throw my hands up and walk away.

I am going to the parts store today for the Rad Cap and thermostat, but I dont have the repair manuals, can anyone tell me where the thermostat is in this thing so i can replace it? Sounds like it's pretty easy from the posts above, i'm just not sure where to look. All of my experience is with an 8v motor (and I still dont know where one is in that).

Also here's a pic of the top of the head...is there supposed to be oil there? I'm not very mechanically inclined (ok i'll say it, i'm an idiot)...

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/Header2.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/MKwiat2005/media/Header2.jpg.html)

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/Header1.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/MKwiat2005/media/Header1.jpg.html)

[DOHCRT]

Probably rocker cover seals. They dry out and get hard over time and will not seal. Get the Chevy V-6? silicone seals and make your own.

[Turbo Joe]

yup your valve cover gaskets are leaking, you'll want to replace those. As far as the thermostat its on the side of the head where the upper rad hose goes to the head, if you unbolt the waterbox neck( the nipple piece the upper hose attaches to) the thermostat is in the waterbox. don't unbolt the entire waterbox cause you'll only need to get another gasket for nothing ..

[89FerrariShelby]

Are valve cover gaskets as simple as removing the valve covers and putting new gaskets down? I don't have to break it down past that I hope? Thanks for the heads up on the thermostat, i'll take a look a.s.a.p.

[cordes]

Did you unplug the coolant temp sensor with the car running yet? That'll trip the fan so if it doesn't come on right away then you know it's the fan for sure. I would do that before the T stat.

[turbovanman²]

Redo those coolant plugs, they look like they are really in deep.

[89FerrariShelby]

Did you unplug the coolant temp sensor with the car running yet? That'll trip the fan so if it doesn't come on right away then you know it's the fan for sure. I would do that before the T stat.
I haven't, but that's probably because i'm not sure where that is either. Any Hints? I will try to look it up, hopefully someone put up a picture.

Redo those coolant plugs, they look like they are really in deep.
You'll have to forgive my ignorance, what is the coolant plug? I see the spark plugs, so my guess is that the coolant plugs are the bolts between them? Or if they are the coolant plugs, I guess my question would be how to redo them, don't they thread as far as the thread goes? or should I leave them loose so they're farther up.
Sorry for the stupid questions. I only bought this because I always wanted a Spirit R/T, the plan was to enjoy it til something happened and then sell it. But I find myself not wanting to let it go without a fight. But I have very little Engine Experience and 0 TIII experience.

[Pat]

Redo those coolant plugs, they look like they are really in deep.

I wouldnt touch them. If the head hasnt cracked in 20 plus years, its not going to crack.


Did you unplug the coolant temp sensor with the car running yet? That'll trip the fan so if it doesn't come on right away then you know it's the fan for sure. I would do that before the T stat.

The coolant tem sensor is on the top of the thermostat housing, ehich is that thing sticking out on the drivers side of the head

And yes, as mentioned before it looks like a valve cover gasket is leaking. All you have to do is remove the valve covers and replace the gaskets.

[iTurbo]

First thing I would do is unplug the coolant sensor, which is on the top of the thermostat housing on the driver's side of the head. If you unplug that sensor with the car running, it should turn the radiator fan on. If it doesn't turn the fan on, then you may have a bad radiator fan relay or a bad fuse link for that circuit.

[89FerrariShelby]

Good News/Bad News. I unplugged the sensor and after a very short delay (maybe 1 second) the fan kicked on. So it would appear that is not the problem.

Bad news is i'm back to not knowing what the problem is. So I picked up the thermostat and Rad cap today, going to put them in today/tomorrow and see if that fixes it. Any tips on the thermostat are appreciated, i'm like a bull in a china shop over here lol. I will update after i give it a run.

Ordered the Valve Cover Gaskets...they are not cheap! But its clear i need them. Will do those once i get them, but i'd imagine they're not the reason i'm overheating?

[tryingbe]

If the problem is still there after you put the parts in, I'd pay some key knowledgable about the TIII and diagnosis it.

[89FerrariShelby]

I have no problem paying someone, it's finding someone knowledgable who also has the time and desire to diagnose it. I went years (almost a decade) trying to find someone who could fix my Daytona's computer, I would offer people whatever sum they wanted, finally i was lucky enough to find someone who did it for an actual reasonable price, but even now it needs some tweaking, and i'm more than willing to pay, but people have lives, and not many people want to clear their schedule to fiddle with one of these. The real answer is to gain the knowledge to fix it myself, but i'm not that smart (i really probably am), but I also dont really have any desire to get that involved. Which I know means my time with these cars is limited.

In ANY case. I have the thermostat, but i wanted to confirm i'm looking in the right area before i start taking stuff apart and get coolant all over the place. I posted a pic below. Is that the housing for the thermostat? I ask because it seems pretty close to the description mentioned elsewhere, but in looking at it, I dont see any possible way to change the thermostat without taking it completely apart, so i'm thinking i'm looking at the wrong area? Any help is appreciated.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/Thermostat.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/MKwiat2005/media/Thermostat.jpg.html)

[zin]

The oil is definately not the reason for over heating, but might be the cause of a misfire due to the plugs swimming in oil.

When you re-do the gaskets, be sure to use an in/pound torque wrench. This is one of the best investments you can make when it comes to stopping leaky gaskets, be they valve cover, oil pan, or transmission. These things need to be tightened in order and to the right torque, otherwise you could pinch/kill the gasket and/or allow them to leak by one side not being "pulled down" to the same level.

As was suggested earlier, check the actual temp the computer is seeing via a scan tool to be sure it's actually over heating. The little sender, which is in the same place as an 8v (just to the right of where the A/C compressor is on an 8V), can go bad and read "high", which will make you think it's hot when it is actually fine.

One other bit about the thermostat, drill a small hole in the 12 O'clock position, it helps let trapped air out and lessens the thermal shock when the thermostat opens by letting small amounts of hot water out of the engine to kind of "pre-heat" the water in the radiator that is waiting to be sent through the engine when the thermostat opens. It should be small, like 1/8" or smaller, too big and it will take a very long time to warm up.

Good Luck!

Mike

[zin]

You have the right place. You will need to take the two nuts holding the housing (part with the hose attached) off of the water box. The water box bolts to the head, and is the part you were advised to not remove. taking those two nuts off won't do that so you're fine.

Mike

[iTurbo]

Just so you know the coolant temp sender that controls the gauge in the cluster is actually located below the thermostat housing on the driver's side of the head. It is really hard to see it. I'm pretty sure it's the same one-wire sender that the SOHC cars use.

[zin]

DOH! I was thinking it was still in the same place as the 8V... Though it would be a pain to get to if it was...

Mike

[89FerrariShelby]

Thanks so much guys. I will swap the thermostat tomorrow, but i'm thinking i probably shouldn't run the car until i clean up the plugs and replace the gaskets. I started it today and it had a bit of tick, probably just from sitting for months, it definitely needs an oil change.

Any recommendations on a scan tool that's better than others? Or can i only use the specific ones for Dodge? Is there a generic one i could buy/use? Worst case I could drive it to a TM meet in NE and ask someone to bring one.

[zin]

The DRBII or OTC4000 or even the OTC2000 will tell you what you want to know. Thankfully they are pretty cheap on eBay.

The ticking sound is probably a lash adjuster, definitely change the oil and maybe add some seafoam or marvel mystery oil to help clean them out a bit, you don't want to have to replace them, they are EXPENSIVE!!!

They will probably stop ticking with fresh oil and some run time.

Mike

[89FerrariShelby]

This look reasonable? I have no idea on pricing =(

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Diagnostic-OTC-4000-E-System-with-Carrying-Case-and-Accessories-Used-/380628108379?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item589f34045b&vxp=mtr#ht_1185wt_905

[89FerrariShelby]

Actually that one has no cartridges or manuals, i assume i need the cartridges in order for it to work?

So maybe this is a better deal even at a higher price?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OTC-4000-Enhanced-Scan-Set-USA-Asian-Imports-ABS-Cartridges-OBD-I-II-Cables-/261212960725?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3cd18177d5&vxp=mtr#ht_1294wt_934

[zin]

That second one looks good, it's the model that can do basic OBDII scans too!

Mike

[89FerrariShelby]

Sweet, bought it. Who knows, maybe it will help me chase down my Daytona issues too, you know, if i ever figure out how to use it. =).

Check back in with you guys in a few days, need to wait for the gaskets and the tool to get here. =)

[zin]

It's pretty simple, and there are a few threads here (I think) that deal with using one. That one is especially cool in that it has the adapter/cart. for doing ABS too!

Mike

[Turbo Joe]

omg! dude i'm right down the road from you and have the snap-on brick i would've scanned your car for free.. when you change the V cover gaskets let me know and i'll help ya out with torque wrenches as i have inch and foot pound, click type and torque dial. also have the FSM for all the specs.. don't you still have my number?

[89FerrariShelby]

Well, I know when John was trying to tune my car he was using a scan tool to help, so maybe I can use it for that as well (or maybe its the wrong kind, that would be my luck) but I also know someone in Detroit was using one to datalog a 1/4 mile run for me. If this one can do some of those things (or be modified to do so) then it's well worth the $$, otherwise, oh well....can't bring it with you (money that is).

I'll have to look and see if I still have it, if not i'll pm you, I appreciate the offer. The reverse cable worked great btw, I never got back to you on that and i'm sorry...I didn't install it til this spring =(

[89FerrariShelby]

Alright, I know its late, but i'm hoping someone out there can help since this is the last of it (other than hooking the scanner up to the temp sensor...something i'm not entirely sure how to do) and I'm not quite sure what to do.

Below is a pic of the old temp sensor in the car:

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/Inthecar.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/MKwiat2005/media/Inthecar.jpg.html)

And then the old/new sensors:
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/NewampOld.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/MKwiat2005/media/NewampOld.jpg.html)

My confusion centers around one point. When they say to drill the tiny hole at 12 oclock...where do i drill it? Just anywhere (inner disk or outer?) and then make sure when i put the pipe back that the hole ends up at 12 on the car? Or is there a certain way these are supposed to go in i'm not seeing?

Any help is greatly appreciated. I need to get the car out of the garage so the fiance can put hers back in (avoid the wrath at all costs) so i'm hoping someone can help soon.

Edit...just saw the hole in the old one (man i'm blind when i'm panicky) i guess my question still stands if it needs to be in a certain place, but i guess it answer the 12 oclock question installed, and where on the disk...but I just want to confirm that the spot for the hole wasn't there for a specific reason and could be anywhere on the clock up until install....

[iTurbo]

Well that is the thermostat, not the temp sensor....I know just terminology but I digress.

I just drilled the one for the Spirit R/T that I'm building. I drilled mine with a 3/32" bit. You want to drill it in the outer disk, but not on the very outer disk that seats in the recess of the housing. You want to drill it just inside of that. When you install the thermostat, make sure the hole ends up at 12 o'clock so that air trapped in that location has the best chance of escaping out via the hole. Should help with bleeding the air out and lessening temp shock as it opens. Hope this helps!

[89FerrariShelby]

Thank you sir. Sorry about the bad terminology!

I played around and drilled the hole where it looked like it should be. Just ran the car for 35 minutes, got up to temp 3 times, each time fan came on and it went down, so yay!!! It might have been the thermostat, but I also noticed while moving the car around I seem to have a small coolant leak, so maybe over time the reduced coolant is what makes it get so hot? I'll have to chase that down, but with full coolant and the update to the thermostat it seems to be holding its own temp wise!

Now the only remaining issue is the power (electricity) I am going to start a new thread now. Hopefully its just a ground issue for the dash, but it seems like its more... =(

And new valve gaskets smoke at first right? lol...valve covers were awfully smokey at first lol

[iTurbo]

Do you ever see coolant puddling on top of the transaxle case? If so, that is a *somewhat* typical problem on the TIII engines. There is a plug on the bottom (deck) side of the TIII that can leak coolant out which will puddle on top of the trans case.

[89FerrariShelby]

Yes... I was just out there, and there is definitely a puddle of coolant on top of the trans and I saw it dripping from the bottom of the engine onto the transmission. What is the plug called (i.e. how can I get a new one lol)? It looks like a pain to replace, but i'm guessing it wont get better on its own. Hate to have it give out completely while i'm driving.

[supercrackerbox]

They are the casting plugs in the cylinder head. The factory installed large steel screw-in plugs into an aluminum head; two metals with different expansion rates was a bad idea. The best way to properly deal with them is to have the metal ones taken out, and aluminum ones welded in by a competent shop. Or just deal with having a minor coolant leak. It won't "give out", the damage is already done. The downsides of that are: The coolant does have a tendency to pool in the spark plug wells and short the plugs out, so you may have to clean them up regularly. It also reduces the ability of your cooling system to maintain adequate pressure, which doesn't affect the mean temperature, but does lower the boiling point. As long as the rest of your cooling system is in good shape, you should be fine. Some have even gone to a lower pressure radiator cap and reduced the amount of coolant leaking out of the head.

[89FerrariShelby]

Ahhh, thank you for the info. As long as they wont give out I guess I'll just keep a bottle of coolant in the trunk and keep an eye on the plugs. I bought this car with the understanding for the fiancé being it wouldn't turn into the project my red car has been. Machine shop work will certainly bring the hammer down lol.

[iTurbo]

Ahhh, thank you for the info. As long as they wont give out I guess I'll just keep a bottle of coolant in the trunk and keep an eye on the plugs. I bought this car with the understanding for the fiancé being it wouldn't turn into the project my red car has been. Machine shop work will certainly bring the hammer down lol.

Those plugs Adam mentioned are a common problem, but the one I was referring to is actually a small pressed in plug on the deck side of head. You would have to remove the head and take it to a machine shop to have it fixed up if that is indeed where the coolant ending up on top of the transaxle case is coming from. If I'm wrong, somebody please feel free to correct me here.

There is also a chance that the coolant you are seeing there is coming from the exhaust manifold studs. The two outer-most exhaust manifold studs on the TIII head thread into the coolant jacket of the cylinder head and can seep coolant if they get loose.

[supercrackerbox]

Ah, didn't read the post carefully enough. Is that a regular core plug, like in the cylinder block?

[89FerrariShelby]

So i still have the fluid over the tranny, been driving it anyways and just filling as necessary.

However Now it appears my radiator is crap, there's a layer of coolant on the bottom and a pool of coolant under the front of the car. Are these easy to find/install?

Was trying to avoid a car payment, but i'm getting tired of purchasing a gallon of coolant a week lol.

[Pat]

If it's overheating,the coolant near the rad might be coolant being spit out of the overflow bottle. Is it bubbling in the bottle behind the radiator when it's hot?

[89FerrariShelby]

I thought so Pat, which is why I didn't get too worried. The major seepage seems to come and go, so I presumed it was like you said, however, it happened again yesterday and I'm thinking its not the overflow. I did manage to grab a video, looks like the radiator to me? I don't think this explains the coolant on the back of the tranny, but it does explain why its disappearing faster than it used to.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/th_IMG_0897.mp4 (http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/IMG_0897.mp4)

[Pat]

Radiator is leaking.

The coolant on the trans is either the headgasket, a leak from the coolant return line from the turbo or a leak from something to do the water box on the side of the head.

[89FerrariShelby]

Do you know if it's possible to get a new radiator? are they hard to replace?

sorry, better phrasing... would an AutoZone replacement be fine? I've done a radiator on a 3.0 spirit back in the day... is it significantly harder than that?

[Black93RT]

The last time I looked (been a few years now) TIII radiators are specialty ones that you can't get anywhere. Autozone (and any other shop) will gladly say they have it and then get you one for a TII with the Rad/intercooler combo that won't fit. Turbos Unleashed had some custom all aluminum ones made that would bolt in, but I'm not sure if they have any left or are planning another run.

[89FerrariShelby]

crapsicles.... thanks for the heads up... the TU ones are gone...

[cordes]

As stated above no parts store will have a TIII rad. Your best bet is to have yours recored locally. Other than that you can put out a WTB ad on here. I'm sure you'll get a response, but you'll have to buy a rad for more than you would pay to have yours recored in all likelihood.

[iTurbo]

Post a WTB ad stating that you would be willing to buy a NICE Spirit R/T radiator for $400. That might get some people out there to let a nice one go.

Don't go for a used one though, unless it is way nice and pressure checked *and* from a reputable member. At this day and age you will probably have to get it recored anyway $$.

[86Shelby]

Don't go for a used one though, unless it is way nice and pressure checked *and* from a reputable member. At this day and age you will probably have to get it recored anyway $$.

Ditto. I have three of them and they either leak because they are rotten or are clogged up & don't cool worth a darn.

[tryingbe]

Find a old school radiator shop that can and will record your radiator will be your best bet, if your radiator is recore-able.

[supercrackerbox]

Problem is a lot of shops won't do radiators with plastic end tanks.

[89FerrariShelby]

So I'd rather expose my ignorance here than at the radiator shop and get raked over the coals on price because they know i'm an idiot. Pretty sure I only need the "left" for the radiator shop correct? The right piece is attached to the radiator/IC assembly...but i'm thinking it's something to do with the AC, not the engine cooling? Just want to confirm =)

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae341/MKwiat2005/IMG_1380.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/MKwiat2005/media/IMG_1380.jpg.html)

[Pat]

Correct