Trying to pass CA smog

[glhs571]

Two years ago my car had trouble passing smog because the Hydro carbons and Nox was too high, I finally turned the car over to my mechanic who was able to get it to pass. Car is an 88 CSX-T with 2.5" exhaust from downpipe back. I bought a hi flow cat from Cindy back in 09' and am wondering if this could be a huge factor as I do not believe the cat was CA smog approved (can't remember). Any suggestions on what I should do to get it to pass? I've heard of retarding the ignition timing to 8 degrees, but is there anything else? Thanks in advance. Oh and o2 sensor was replaced within the last two years or so.

[tryingbe]

First, make sure all your vacuum lines are in good shape.
Then, run the pre-test and see where your car stands.

If it fails, get a wideband installed so you know where your a/f is. Then, get a socketed SMEC, install MPTuner on your PC and also learn how to adjust the fuel table to get a/f at 14.7:1 for partthrottle under boost a/f.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/partthrottle.JPG

[turbovanman²]

If from Cindy, Catco's don't last very long. I'll get you a Walker number tomorrow, they are unreal and they take a wide margin of abuse and still work.

If the car is stock, it runs fine and has a good cat, it should easily pass. High HC's are a sign of incorrect timing, bad compression, worn plugs, crappy ignition system, vacuum leaks or running lean. Running lean will also put NOx thru the roof.

[RoadWarrior222]

There's snake oil then there is...

http://wholesaleharvestsupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/alcohol_99_big.jpg

Dragons piss!!!

Bottle of 99% Isopropyl rubbing alcohol from the drug store in a full tank of gas :thumb:

(But do everything you can mechanically first)

---------- Post added at 06:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 AM ----------

(BTW I used to say 70% upwards was good enough, but due to ethanol in the fuel and the weird ways mixes of alcohols in gas hold or don't hold water, I'd use nothing less than 83% now, it's an odd number but for some reason it is a concentration that is sold some places)

---------- Post added at 06:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 AM ----------

(BTW-II It works even better if you run half the doctored tank through first, cleans up injectors, EGR, O2 etc...)

[Rrider]

I just went thru this with high NOx. Third test was the charm for me with a new cat. IIRC.. you can only legally retard timing 3 degrees from base to help with the NOx. More than that is automatic fail.

Cali now requires expensive CA approved catalytic converters stamped with the serial number which proves it is the correct type for your vehicle. This only matters if the smog shop checks, which not all shops do check. If you're going to save money with a 49 state cat talk to some customers just to make sure they don't look at the cat.

I tried the alcohol thing along with new plugs on my 2nd test but it only helped marginally. Not nearly enough to pass in my case, but I didn't have teh HC problem.

[RoadWarrior222]

BTW I've seen oil that's due for a change make a difference on HC, 'coz when you get the thing nice and hot for the test, it starts smoking a bit, and also it's probably getting too thin and more gets by the rings and seals... resulting in too much HC, so always make sure you're on a recent oil change.

Unfortunately, due to the way they run the test here, you can't necessarily say whether your pass results mean anything... so if it looks like "it only just squeaked through" last time, that may not actually be the case... the car is started on the test and the numbers start high and they are supposed to give them a couple of minutes to stabilise and drop BUT, if the tech is in a hurry, as soon as it hits "pass" scores, he'll end the test... so "only just passed" scores might be good enough to end the test scores, not what it's ultimately capable of after running a little longer. However, fail scores, at a reputable place, should give better indications, they'll wait until they stop dropping significantly, may even wait another minute or two if they're close. IF they're real close, you can always try going somewhere else. Repeatability doesn't have a very narrow margin.

[MeandMyShadow]

My thoughts on how I passed once. I used 1 gallon of Denatured Alcohol and 2 gallons of 91 octane in the tank. Denatured alcohol can be bought at any big box home improvement store. Do the timing set-up, run the car hot to the smog shop and SHUT OFF the car. I know they tell you, keep running the car to get it hot. No. Shut off. This way the cat super heats while you wait. The longer you run the car, the exhaust cools off running down the pipe to the cat, thus cooling it off. Good luck.

[turbovanman²]

I would use this cat, its the largest one, not CA approved but not sure if 88 would need that due to the age of the car and not being OBD11, Walker 80106, next are CA cats, smaller of course, 81703, 81908.

[johnl]

Wouldn't it be better to use methanol instead of isopropyl alcohol?

[RoadWarrior222]

Not if there's any ethanol in there... in a mixture with gas they interfere with each others ability to hold water, that means when you dump methanol in a tank of e5 or e10, that might have picked up some water, then there's a chance it will separate out... unless you also add isopropyl.... which I think needs to be at least about 10% of the quantity of methanol you're putting in... and whereas before e10 you might have got away with 95% methanol, that would be a complete no-no now.

[johnl]

Cool, I learn something everyday. Thanks

[Rrider]

40616
40617
Here is the thingy from the other thread.

[turbovanman²]

You guys need to stop playing with voodo juice, simply get the engine running correctly, a good cat, and you'll never fail.

[Rrider]

Maybe for now.. ppm limits keep getting lower here.

[turbovanman²]

Maybe for now.. ppm limits keep getting lower here.

Nah, we have liberal limits here but when I get them running properly, use the new line of Walker cats, especially the large one I listed, they literally barely register, sometimes the smog checkers think its not running. :lol:

[Rrider]

Whats max limits for you guys? I'll check my sheet.

[turbovanman²]

www.aircare.ca

91 and older, it varies based on year but average for idle is around 150 ppm and .80 CO, driving is 120 HC and .8 CO.

92 and newer using a driving test, IM240, 240 secs long, idling, cruising, full throttle, off then on gas etc, then a final run at 90 km/h. The link should help you see what we do. The cat has to be pretty bad or a really worn out, badly tuned motor to fail the IM240.

[RoadWarrior222]

I'm pretty sure it's set by car here... but has gone down by model year... I looked into it when some enviro-nazi was howling about older cars making 40x the pollution of new ones, and found my voyager was only allowed double the figures of a new civic. I think they allowed higher in the first couple of years of the testing program as it was phased in.

ASM2525 Test: 85ppm HC, 0.47% CO, 919ppm NO.
Curb Idle: 200ppm HC, 1.0% CO, NO not measured.

ASM2525 is the test on rollers that's meant to emulate city speed driving at about 1500-2000 rpm. They've nixed that for '97 and below now and are meant to be doing curb idle and high idle, and for 98 up it's an OBDII scan.

---------- Post added at 06:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 AM ----------

BTW they reckon the testing program here has had about a 1% effect on total noxious emissions :banghead: or some other tiny impact.

[OmniLuvr]

ok, we also need to see EVERY number from your smog results, 02, co2, co, hc and nox for both 15 and 25.

having high hc and high nox usaully indacates a bad cat, because if you are running rich (hc, co) then your nox is usaully low, and vice versa. but ive had problems with just 1 inj going bad (lean) so when the computer compinsates for the lean cyl, it makes the others rich, so it failed on both nox and hc/co. also, old oil/burning oil will cause higher hc AND nox, because the oil is an hc emmision, that also causes slight detonation which in turn causes high nox...

so whats the other #s

[zin]

The limits are dropping, I just did the wagon a week or so ago and checked it against the last one, the car did fine, but I noticed the limits had gotten significantly tighter... No surprise, CA HATES older cars, and it's a cheap and politically convenient way to justify their existence (The ARB, etc), as well as not address the biggest emission producers (construction and stationary sources), who either have more money to fight or have paid off the right people. (Edit: that sounds like I think they need more restrictions, which isn't necessarily the case, I'm just sick of cars getting all the "blame", sorry for any confusion)

If they keep tightening the standards, you can keep blaming the older cars for being "dirty" compared to newer cars, one of which I just smogged (the wife's 06 HHR), which almost "blew 0s"... While it is significantly "cleaner" than the wagon, 2 parts per million vs 14 parts per million doesn't add up to much one way or the other, but as a percentage, etc... NOW you have something that sounds like it actually is something, after all, that wagon is 3.5 X as "dirty" as the HHR... but is it a material difference? No, but it sounds like it is!

Mike

BTW, if you still have your OE cat, you could pretty easily attach the shield/shell that has the "correct" number on it if the shop is going Nazi on you. I mean really?, they don't want you to put a cat on the car that makes it cleaner?!! THAT tells me they WANT them/you to fail, and to be too expensive for the owners to fix! Public trans for all... After all, Jerry Brown needs ridership on his "high speed" rail!

[zin]

I just re-read my earlier post and realized I didn't address the OP's post so well.

As a rule, higher HC will be caused by a misfire, which can be secondary ignition (wires, plugs, cap, rotor), though it can be other things that put raw HC in the exhaust.

CO is partially burnt fuel, by itself it indicates a rich mixture, though it would be expected with a high HC count as well.

NoX means high temps and often higher than normal O2, which can mean a lean mix. Most of the time this is due to a defective/malfunctioning EGR (if so equipped).

If the cat is bad it can easily fail. I've had an Omni that tested as a "gross polluter", but once the cat was replaced it was almost "blowing zeros".

If you can't afford to do a proper tune-up, you can "clean-up" the wire terminals and rotor with some emery cloth/fine sandpaper, and some fresh, cheap plugs. That should fix the HCs, if the CO is a little high, 2* of retard from stock will help clean that up. NOx, that's a little tougher, but isn't often a problem, but if the EGR passage is plugged, cleaning that up and making sure vacuum still operates it, that can make a difference.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it through!

Mike

[glhs571]

If from Cindy, Catco's don't last very long. I'll get you a Walker number tomorrow, they are unreal and they take a wide margin of abuse and still work.

If the car is stock, it runs fine and has a good cat, it should easily pass. High HC's are a sign of incorrect timing, bad compression, worn plugs, crappy ignition system, vacuum leaks or running lean. Running lean will also put NOx thru the roof.

Ok so unless Cat is bad I should pass. Timing is correct as I set it last week when I replaced the distributor, it's set to 12 degrees and cam timing is fine too. Checked compression last summer 140 across the board, plugs are champion RN9YC's replaced about two years ago, cap and plugs replaced last summer, rotor changed out with distributor last week. Vacuum leaks are unlikely since I'm getting around 17 Vac at idle, I have a vacuum block so all my lines are in good shape after being replaced a year and a half ago. Running lean is a possibility though I haven't checked the plugs lately.

I bought this stuff at AutoZone called "guarenteed to pass" and it says to run a full tank with it mixed in and refill when close to empty and I should pass. I'm going to try driving my car to near empty and change the oil while I'm at it. I also read that properly filled tires and driving the car for at least a 1/2 hour at freeway speeds are huge factors as well so I'll be sure to try those before I go in. Two last questions before I attempt to smog it. Should I retard the timing 2 degrees only like somone suggested? And if I'm running a grainger valve do I need to remove it and run stock vacuum line setup? Thanks all for your input, it's truly appreciated!

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 PM ----------

Oh and thanks turbovanman, if it ends up being the cat I will def switch to a higher quality one.. And take down those numbers. Are they for 2.5" exhaust?

[turbovanman²]

^^^^Correct, if your car is stock and running correctly, IE the ox sensor isn't sticking, good compression, etc, then with a good cat, it will fly thru. Do you have an wideband? If so, that's another way to easily tell if it will pass, idle and cruise should be 14.7:1 or close, if they are, then a good cat it will easily pass. NO exhaust leaks must be present in front of the cat otherwise NOx will go up.

Boost? If they do a visual then you can hide it and turn the boost down so its around stock or slightly lower.

Yep, those numbers are for 2.5" exhaust.

I've tried a few intank fix's, never work.

[zin]

Boost won't be a problem, they don't run them hard enough to get into boost, but if they see "metal" in the vacuum lines they might fail you... Really depends on the shop, in my experience, if you go to a "test only" place, they aren't really looking to fail you, they don't make money that way, a shop that does repairs too... well, they might be more inclined to "fine" something to fix...

Mike

[glhs571]

Unfortunately I don't have a wide band. I did read online that aftermarket exhaust doesn't mesh to well with the guarantees to pass formula. Anyways for 11 bucks it's worth a shot. My grainger is out of sight below my intake manifold so maybe They won't notice it. Any thoughts on retarding the timing?

[black86glhs]

Only do 1-2 degrees like said previously.

[zin]

Agreed, retarding timing cleans up emissions, but they're on to that trick, so more than 2* retard from stock will fail you, as well as kill power and mileage. Shops used to just retard the heck out of timing to get you to pass, which you would, but often rendered the car almost UN drivable, then charge you again to fix the drivability!

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Agreed, retarding timing cleans up emissions, but they're on to that trick, so more than 2* retard from stock will fail you, as well as kill power and mileage. Shops used to just retard the heck out of timing to get you to pass, which you would, but often rendered the car almost UN drivable, then charge you again to fix the drivability!

Mike

I can get away with that, I have to on a customers older truck, if i don't retard the timing big time, it fails on HC. 1980 F250, :p

[black86glhs]

I can get away with that, I have to on a customers older truck, if i don't retard the timing big time, it fails on HC. 1980 F250, :pYes, but you don't charge him to put it back in time do you? If not, your not a crook. If so, your a crook.......LOL.:D

[turbovanman²]

Yes, but you don't charge him to put it back in time do you? If not, your not a crook. If so, your a crook.......LOL.:D

Of course I do, :p

[black86glhs]

Of course I do, :p:D:evil:

[glhs571]

Well thanks for the input everyone. The car will be down for a couple of days but I will post results when I take it to the smog shop.

[glhs571]

Took the car down to a test only station today and it failed. The guy told me it needs a CAT with a CARB # and corresponding serial number. Anyways here are my numbers.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f393/matt1104/smog.jpg

[turbovanman²]

Bummer, :( Can you make the pic bigger?

The last 2 cats I listed are CA cats so that should help a lot. How did they let the Catco one thru, AFAIK, those aren't CA cats?

[glhs571]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f393/matt1104/smog.jpg

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 AM ----------

Not sure how to make picture bigger, I uploaded a larger file pic and it looks the same. I think I will try that Walker CAT next or turn it over to the mechanic. Not sure what I want to do yet.

[turbovanman²]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f393/matt1104/smog.jpg

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 AM ----------

Not sure how to make picture bigger, I uploaded a larger file pic and it looks the same. I think I will try that Walker CAT next or turn it over to the mechanic. Not sure what I want to do yet.

Usually when you IMG from PB, it will get bigger unless the pic you took is very small.

If I could read the readings, lol, I could give you some advice.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, get the readings so we can dispute Simon's advice :D

[glhs571]

I failed CO's at 15 mph only, max is .55 I measured .97. I failed Nox at 15 mph. Max is 571 I measured 1693, at 25 mph max is 528, I measured 605.

[turbovanman²]

Put a decent cat on, problem solved.

[glhs571]

So you think just the walker cat alone will solve the problem? My Nox was really high at low speeds so wasn't sure if a cat alone would solve the problem.

[black86glhs]

The walker one should do it. If you don't have working EGR, they will be high without a good cat. If you do have it, it might not be working very well. I would concentrate on the cat.

[Rrider]

571 is tough.. even with a brand new cat Im not sure you will pass with that high nox. I think it will halve it for sure.

[RoadWarrior222]

Were the HCs "close"? Just thinking if one cylinder has a leaky injector or is slightly misfiring, the O2 will read that as rich, and pull fuel, leaving the other cylinders lean and making NOx.

edit:oops, no O2 won't finger a leaky injector like that it would be misfire or nothing. (Because there will be no free O2 left in that sitch, but misfire there would be, high CO might point to that though)

[glhs571]

HC's at 15 mph were max 87, measured 80, 25 mph were max 69 measured 14.

[RoadWarrior222]

Personally, I'd clean and regap the plugs, clean and reseat all the wires and ignition connections, inspect wires, clean up rotor and wire ends in the diz.... then I think with a new approved cat it should pass.... my 3.0 has blown 400s with a fresher cat, can't say if it's "getting worse" or not until a fail, because of the test termination when it's below fail figs, instead of waiting for best reading.

[glhs571]

Thanks road warrior, I've never cleaned plugs but I can check if the gap is still at .35 and clean up the wire connections on the cap. Rotor is brand new as well as the distributor.

[turbovanman²]

A good cat will make those readings zero, I do smog repairs for a living. Our engines have a ton of timing off idle and midrange so with no EGR, the NOx is brutal. I've run my van thru without a cat and wow, its bad, put a cat on, zero's. Recheck the basics, a decent cat and you'll easily pass.

[black86glhs]

NOx is not that hard to remove with a good cat. :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

NOx is not that hard to remove with a good cat. :thumb:

The original Quad 4 had a very good cat, without it, the NOx would be in the 3-4000 ppm's here, back in the 90's, some of the aftermarket cat's couldn't clean it up, put an OE type back on, almost nothing, :wow1:

[black86glhs]

I always wondered why they didn't put egr on them, until I talked with one of the engineers......Easy to clean up, he said....lol.

[turbovanman²]

I always wondered why they didn't put egr on them, until I talked with one of the engineers......Easy to clean up, he said....lol.

Very true, think of the cost for an EGR system, plus the programming hours, when a cat will do the job, :p

[black86glhs]

It did help the EPA was less tight a$$ed back then too.

[glhs571]

Ok well I ordered the Walker cat 81703 so it should be here by Tuesday, I'll clean up my wiring and possibly retard the timing two degrees. Do I need to run the car at freeway speeds a 1/2 before the smog? I tried that before I went and I'm not sure it helped much. Either way I know this newer cat will help out alot. I just need to find a cheap exhaust shop to swap it out.

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

1/2 hour*?

[RoadWarrior222]

Probably not with a new cat on, mostly helps older cats that see a lot of city driving.

[zin]

Driving on the freeway is to heat up the cat, so it "self cleans" and is at its best, and on OBDII cars, to let the computer run through all it tests.

You will be good to go with a new cat.

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

Actually our cars have a few things they won't fault until 20 mins of warmed up highway driving.... so if you've worked on it, take it for a spin round the neighbourhood, and it's "all good" there's still 4 or 5 things that could fault... TC lockup is one, VSS is another, some O2 failures is another...

[turbovanman²]

Just drive it around to get everything hot, then go. It will smell funny at first but then it will go away. I love new cat smell, mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, :love:

[black86glhs]

LOL....strangely, so do I.

[turbovanman²]

LOL....strangely, so do I.

LOL, who'd have thunk, :p

[black86glhs]

LOL, who'd have thunk, :pEven my daughter likes the smell of brake cleaner....god I hope she isn't ruined for life.:p

[Tbird232ci]

I love new cat smell, mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, :love:

Smells like money ;)

[Rrider]

Negative 2-3 degrees and brand new magnaflow CA approved cat on mine would have failed that 571 limit.. my limit was higher though.

Vanman what type of cats do you guys use at your shop?

[turbovanman²]

Even my daughter likes the smell of brake cleaner....god I hope she isn't ruined for life.:p

So does my son, oye! :lol:

---------- Post added at 06:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 PM ----------


Negative 2-3 degrees and brand new magnaflow CA approved cat on mine would have failed that 571 limit.. my limit was higher though.

Vanman what type of cats do you guys use at your shop?

Walker, Some Magnaflow and Catco's are junk, :(

If you have good precat readings, no exhaust leaks a good cat will clean it up big time.

[black86glhs]

So does my son, oye! :lol:

---------- Post added at 06:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 PM ----------



Walker, Some Magnaflow and Catco's are junk, :(

If you have good precat readings, no exhaust leaks a good cat will clean it up big time.Yeah, we ruined them!!!! LOL.....at least she doesn't go around huffing it, thank god!

[glhs571]

Update: Walker cat 81703 is a universal cat and will not pass smog here in CA because it's not specific to the vehicle. 80507 is specific, since our smog restrictions are so high, I don't want to fail by using the wrong cat. So well see what happens in a few days.

[turbovanman²]

Update: Walker cat 81703 is a universal cat and will not pass smog here in CA because it's not specific to the vehicle. 80507 is specific, since our smog restrictions are so high, I don't want to fail by using the wrong cat. So well see what happens in a few days.

Bummer, :(

[zin]

Perhaps you could "camouflage" the new cat with the old/OE cat's heat shield/shell? If all they are looking for is the right number, that would be a way to do it.

I gotta say, CA is yet again attacking those with older cars! Generally that means the poor. They are hoping you won't be able to afford to keep them up, and do crap like this to see to it! Just one more (effective) way of forcing people into public transportation and/or making people move back into the "city" from the suburbs where they can be subject to more taxation.

Requiring a specific part number/cat be used is ridiculous, if the emissions are right, what the F difference does it make? None! But the unspoken agenda is to get these cars off the road.

The other sneaky method is to raise the standards the older cars have to meet in order to pass. I just smogged the wagon and compared the allowable limits to the test done when I got it, quite a bit tougher to meet, but luckily it still passed with "like new" numbers.

The Omni tested as a "gross polluter" on it's first go-round, but after a new cat, it tested better than new! Thankfully it was installed before this inane regulation.

Mike

[86Shelby]

I would like to extend a big Thank You to all who deal with this in California so that we don't have to deal with it here in Nebraska. The CARB gestapo would likely pass out and then confiscate my car if it rolled into the state.

[zin]

Don't thank us too soon, unless you get some laws passed to protect the hobby in your state, CA will infect your state too!

Hell, we thought we had a good thing going with a law that stated cars 20+ years old would be exempt from smog testing (except on change of ownership), which got '76 and older exempted and was to be a rolling date, until some busybody cried to the legislature that it wasn't fair to let ANYONE not have to smog their cars as it "costs" the state lost smog cert. money!

That cert is a joke too, they still charge $6.00 for it, when you don't actually get a piece of paper anymore, it's all sent electronically! But they couldn't bring themselves to not collect that $$.:mad:

Mike

[Rrider]

A lot of shops don't check the cat numbers. One should ask around and find out before you pick a station though..

Of course I too agree its dumb that a clean blowing car can fail for this. Also I'm not clear on how they can retroactively make your hard earned expensive repair illegal if performed before the law change. They should have to prove that the unserialized cats were installed post-ban date.. to be fair about it. Burden should be on them.

[RoadWarrior222]

Well it's a bit of a give away if it's all friggin' shiny and the barcode label is still burning off

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------


until some busybody cried to the legislature that it wasn't fair to let ANYONE not have to smog their cars as it "costs" the state lost smog cert. money!


Well we keep accusing them of cash grab here, and they keep denying denying denying, so when some big cohort gets "let off" and someone whines about revenue, then hopefully we can throw that at them... maybe... they are scaling it back here though after realising it's really not helping much.


Well my Escort is actually due this month, so it's booked in Thursday here, It blew highish last time out and despite knowing that a close pass might not mean anything more than they were in a hurry, I was worried that the cat was ailing. However, realised due to that handy table posted back there, that it was high CO also so might have been my ignition glitches that were doing it, which have been sorted out since. So crossing my fingers and hoping...... it needs an exhaust really soon and I wanted to do a nice one, and relocate the cat, so I don't wanna spend money on stock replacements to put it on, when I want a cat relocate with a higher flow cat and a header (all of which I can get away with, they only care what it blows now)

[86Shelby]

Don't thank us too soon, unless you get some laws passed to protect the hobby in your state, CA will infect your state too!

The battles that the hotrod community has gone through out there have helped us prepare for when they come here. I'm not one to learn on the fly; I'd rather study someone else's experience and find ways to do things differently. Thankfully the worst peice that's come through in recent years was a local ordinance that requires vehicles that are not curently registered and parked at a residence to be out of public view; a simple car cover satisfies that.

[glhs571]

Well I don't have the stock cat as originally posted I have a catco cat from cindy so I couldn't swap anything out to make it look stock, heck that was one reason I failed cause the cat was "modified". As far as the CARB regulations , what can you do? This is the most populated state in the country. States like Nebraska have less people driving around emitting smog pollutants so of course they're regulations are going to be more lax. I know cause I lived in Utah last year and had the same exhaust on my car and it passed with flying colors. I know they are getting tighter each year to get rid of older cars but I'm going to do what I can to pass even if it means going back to the stock exhaust size.

[OmniLuvr]

stock exhaust size will actually help a lot, more restrictive exhaust causes backpressure, effectively causing the egr circuit to work better (some t2 engines need the backpressure to lower nox on non egr equiped vehicles), and also restricts the flow of the entire engine causing lower hc and co emissions...

[turbovanman²]

Well I don't have the stock cat as originally posted I have a catco cat from cindy so I couldn't swap anything out to make it look stock, heck that was one reason I failed cause the cat was "modified". As far as the CARB regulations , what can you do? This is the most populated state in the country. States like Nebraska have less people driving around emitting smog pollutants so of course they're regulations are going to be more lax. I know cause I lived in Utah last year and had the same exhaust on my car and it passed with flying colors. I know they are getting tighter each year to get rid of older cars but I'm going to do what I can to pass even if it means going back to the stock exhaust size.

Like I mentioned earlier, the Catco's I've seen are basically one year cats, :(


stock exhaust size will actually help a lot, more restrictive exhaust causes backpressure, effectively causing the egr circuit to work better (some t2 engines need the backpressure to lower nox on non egr equiped vehicles), and also restricts the flow of the entire engine causing lower hc and co emissions...

Unless the EGR uses a back pressure sensor, then its a load of crap, less backpressure means a cleaner engine, exhaust doesn't stack up and pollute the charge.

[RoadWarrior222]

Oh you might have more of an uphill struggle if it's not a CA emissions car..

[glhs571]

Yeah no kidding catco is trash. As far as I know from the PO this is originally a CA car. Not 100% though. Additionally, every Shelby car I've seen has a sticker under the hood that says "this vehicle conforms to California emissions....etc". I mean if CS modified the car here it would make sense to equip every to vehicle to CA standards just in case the vehicle returned to the state at some point.

[RoadWarrior222]

Touch my AV for luck, I just squeaked my Escort through our emissions test this morning, bit close on the NOx, cat might be the '95 original though.. (With 263,000 miles on ) posted numbers here http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?11655-What-have-you-done-to-your-car-lately-thread&p=937571&viewfull=1#post937571

[black86glhs]

Touch my AV for luck, I just squeaked my Escort through our emissions test this morning, bit close on the NOx, cat might be the '95 original though.. (With 263,000 miles on ) posted numbers here http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?11655-What-have-you-done-to-your-car-lately-thread&p=937571&viewfull=1#post937571The EGR passages might be getting coked up too. The passages get a carbon buildup and don't flow as well. Something to keep in mind.:thumb:

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, it's kind of a long thin tube.... need kerosene and a .22 rifle cleaner I guess.

[black86glhs]

Coat hangers work quite well, too.

[RoadWarrior222]

Bet if you filled it with water and hit it with a torch it would break up and sputter out.... hmmm yeah that way sounds lazier. :D

[tryingbe]

Find another shop that is too lazy to do a visual?

I have nothing buy good luck passing smog while I was in CA with my Daytona. It was easy.

[OmniLuvr]

Unless the EGR uses a back pressure sensor, then its a load of crap, less backpressure means a cleaner engine, exhaust doesn't stack up and pollute the charge.

not exactly buddy, less backpressure = more efficient, not exactly "cleaner" engine, especially depending on camshaft design. when i changed my complete exhaust from stock to 3" all the way back, ALL my emmisions #'s went up! there is even multiple vehicles that we had to install the stock "cat back" exhaust on to pass smog.

you know that the egr system lets exhaust gasses enter the intake stream to dillute the oxygen content, so it needs less fuel to lower hc and co, and to effectively reduce the compression ratio to allow less nox emissions...

so the t2 engine relies on the restrictive turbo and exhaust system and a special cam design to give it a natural egr at lower rpms, and relies on more boost to make the power in the "higher" rpms. the tbi's need more compression and a different cam to make ANY power, but also NEED the properly functioning egr system to lower the nox, hc and co emissions. with a bigger exhaust on the tbi, it will make more "power" but also make the egr system less effective because of the lower backpressure. if you dont believe me try it, either disconnect the vacuum lines to egr on a tbi and run it on the smog machine, all three emissions will go up, with the bigger exhaust, the nox will go up, and the hc and co will increase slightly...

[RoadWarrior222]

Nah, letting exhaust in, increases the pressure, when otherwise it would be in deeper vacuum, what it does is slows down the burn and sucks heat from it, such that the temperature is not high enough to make NOx. But that heat goes into extra expansion so it pushes on the piston.

[turbovanman²]

need kerosene and a .12 rifle

Yep, blow a few holes in her then set her on fire, perfect, :nod:

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------


not exactly buddy, less backpressure = more efficient, not exactly "cleaner" engine, especially depending on camshaft design. when i changed my complete exhaust from stock to 3" all the way back, ALL my emmisions #'s went up! there is even multiple vehicles that we had to install the stock "cat back" exhaust on to pass smog.

you know that the egr system lets exhaust gasses enter the intake stream to dillute the oxygen content, so it needs less fuel to lower hc and co, and to effectively reduce the compression ratio to allow less nox emissions...

so the t2 engine relies on the restrictive turbo and exhaust system and a special cam design to give it a natural egr at lower rpms, and relies on more boost to make the power in the "higher" rpms. the tbi's need more compression and a different cam to make ANY power, but also NEED the properly functioning egr system to lower the nox, hc and co emissions. with a bigger exhaust on the tbi, it will make more "power" but also make the egr system less effective because of the lower backpressure. if you dont believe me try it, either disconnect the vacuum lines to egr on a tbi and run it on the smog machine, all three emissions will go up, with the bigger exhaust, the nox will go up, and the hc and co will increase slightly...

I tune and do smog testing for a living, I disagree but we'll leave that to another discussion, :p

[glhs571]

Do catalytic converters have any desirable metal inside that is worth money? In other words should I take to a metal recycling to get some money off of it?

[black86glhs]

YES!!! The platinum, palladium and rhodium are worth money. I have gotten any where from $20 to $50 depending on what they are paying and demand.

[88C/S]

Yeah there is a metal(s) that is worth money - which is why all cars in the jyard are missing cats.

[zin]

AND why so many 4x4 truck owners wake up to a very loud truck sometimes!:confused:

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah there is a metal(s) that is worth money - which is why all cars in the jyard are missing cats.Here that's because they're not allowed to sell used cats.

[Rrider]

Sooooo a lightly used cat that still functions perfectly gets melted down?

I don't think my non-CA mini has EGR at all.. which year/model Chryslers differ from CA to 49?

[RoadWarrior222]

Yup. We can waste all that energy separating the materials and then remanufacturing them together again, because we really care about the environment.

[glhs571]

So I can take the used cat to a metal recycling facility and get money?

[tryingbe]

OEM Cat, sure.

Aftermarket cat, maybe.

[wallace]

So I can take the used cat to a metal recycling facility and get money?

Not sure about your area but here you need a photo ID when you go to the facility, they also take your picture if it's the first time you've brought one in for recycling. You should call to make sure they will take cats for recycling only one place here in town does. The facilities here require that so if the police come looking for information on people who have turned in cats they have all that info for them. The OEM down here I get between $50-$75 for them. Never turned in a aftermarket so not sure about those.

[turbovanman²]

Oe cats fetch big bucks due to their precious metal loading, I get between $50-$100 is average, the larger ones fetch huge bucks, and my guy told me some newer cars fetch $500+ :wow1:

Good large aftermarket ones go for like $20, the smaller ones, $5.

[glhs571]

Update: car passed with walker cat. HC's- @15 measured 40 max 80, CO- measured .02 max .55 NO-measured 46 max 571. @ 25 HC's - measured 14 max 69 CO- measured .01 max .46 NO- measured 123 max 528. Thanks for all the input everyone!....until next time that is...

[turbovanman²]

Now take it out and put it back in next year, :p

[OmniLuvr]

Now take it out and put it back in next year

thats a very good peice of advice...

[boboli]

Now take it out and put it back in next year, :p
I used to do the same with my cheap catco cat and also the gas cap. It's amazing how in Az your gas cap is bad every other test, even on a car that was driven less than 1500 miles a year.
Now with collectors insurance, I don't' worry about any of that ( no emissions test at all) so if the cat dies, i don't need to worry about replacing it to get through emissions.

[RoadWarrior222]

In approx total family "car years*" of 40ish, we've never had anything needed a gas cap...

(*That's cars I either fix, am first "go to" for problems for, or know enough about or am involved enough with to know what all parts they've had, times years owned since e-testing came in.)

Though come to think of it, I think my BIL's Sonoma needed one when he bought it, but that wasn't in the count, since he looks after that.

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

(BTW s'more.... not even sure if it needed a cap because the original failed a test, or it had a physically damaged one from a gas theft attempt, or the PO lost it and had a temp one on it or what.)

[tryingbe]

Rubber seal on the gas cap dries out and starts to crack. That's when the gas cap fails, since they don't sell just the seal, I have to buy the entire gas cap.

[RoadWarrior222]

I guess we must be lucky, everything else rubber suffers pretty good in this climate too.

[boboli]

I just think the testers are incompetent or the fix is in to sell more caps. My obd2 Elantra in 2001 used to have this problem. I figured it was just the obd2. Soon after all my older cars started failing every other time. It wouldn't be so bad if it was only the cap, but then you have to wait in line again just so they can test the new cap. Luckily my omni and my 2 fords use the same cap so at test time, off comes the original cap and on goes my test only new cap. Once I'm done, the original goes back on

[Rrider]

Then theres this...

[Rrider]

Which I read as methanol injection system filled with water for smog time is fine. And intercoolers don't have to be pulled for visual. A little bit o sanity.

[zin]

That can't be right... it's too........ logical!:)

Mike

PS Saved a copy to take to the smog shop next time, just in case!

[glhs571]

I'm not going to take the cat off, for one the old cat is illegal in the state so finding a place to put it back on would be going out of my way, two the cat was clogged so I don't want that on my car. I paid 85 shipped for my walker cat and 60 to have it welded on. So if I need to buy a new one in two years (we smog every other year here) then I will just buy a new one if need be.

[speedfreek500]

Here is a great link on smog testing and to look for, the goos stuff starts on page 3.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h56.pdf

[turbovanman²]

I'm not going to take the cat off, for one the old cat is illegal in the state so finding a place to put it back on would be going out of my way, two the cat was clogged so I don't want that on my car. I paid 85 shipped for my walker cat and 60 to have it welded on. So if I need to buy a new one in two years (we smog every other year here) then I will just buy a new one if need be.

Mine are clamped in with those wrap around clamps so removal is easy.

[RoadWarrior222]

So what sucks about magnaflow cats? Is it all models? Just 'coz out of the options for a direct fit Escort GT cat, the magnaflow looks nicest. (I am putting a header on the Escort LX which means it needs a cat in the Escort GT position). Passed the e-test on the current one and don't have to worry about it for 23 months, but the exhaust system is patches on patches, and there's a stress crack starting on the cat pipe to cat body, and I have my suspicions that it's partially clogged... plus it's unusable with the header.

Anyhoo, there's not many direct fit options, wanna stay away from walker stuff on this, since it seems to be really crappy for this model. (Was excellent on the Voyager, different plant???)

[turbovanman²]

The full size units seem to be the cheap ones, same as Catco, not sure why. I did run a small bullet cat from Magnaflow and that lasted a few years.

[zin]

I've had good luck with the Magnaflow cats, but then again, most of the cars I've put them on haven't been driven many miles, so it may just be a longevity thing rather than a performance thing...

Really, when you think about it, it has to be in the manufacturing of them that they miss the boat... Cats go bad by either loosing their catalyst material, or having that material get "coated over" by a non-reactive substance, assuming they worked when installed...

So... either leaded fuel/zinc, etc poisons them, they don't get hot enough to "self clean" or they loose their active material over time...

Seems like with proper care and feeding, the catalyst should never "wear out", though the shell may succumb over time...

Mike

[Rrider]

Dang speedfreak, I screenshotted those charts years ago and never was able to find that site again.. thank you!

On the direct fit for mini I couldn't find anybody who had stock locally or online. Even magnaflow didn't. I figure its the same story will all the old obscure cars.

[RoadWarrior222]

Really, when you think about it, it has to be in the manufacturing of them that they miss the boat... Cats go bad by either loosing their catalyst material, or having that material get "coated over" by a non-reactive substance, assuming they worked when installed...

So... either leaded fuel/zinc, etc poisons them, they don't get hot enough to "self clean" or they loose their active material over time...

Seems like with proper care and feeding, the catalyst should never "wear out", though the shell may succumb over time...


Oh yah, cats got thinned out with OBD2 intro, and again in the 97-98ish timeframe and again in the mid 2000s I think... been noticing some "universal" cats are "universal for OBD2" not really universal universal, that's 'coz with the after cat O2s etc, it was all more tightly controlled, they were less susceptible to getting overcooked from too much fuel etc... this would be why you can get $80 for a big old truck OE cat converter scrap, yet replace it with a new "universal" for $60 but not have it last long.

[turbovanman²]

I've had good luck with the Magnaflow cats, but then again, most of the cars I've put them on haven't been driven many miles, so it may just be a longevity thing rather than a performance thing...

Really, when you think about it, it has to be in the manufacturing of them that they miss the boat... Cats go bad by either loosing their catalyst material, or having that material get "coated over" by a non-reactive substance, assuming they worked when installed...

So... either leaded fuel/zinc, etc poisons them, they don't get hot enough to "self clean" or they loose their active material over time...

Seems like with proper care and feeding, the catalyst should never "wear out", though the shell may succumb over time...

Mike

The problem is they are built cheaply, meaning bare minimum materials and coatings, so they literally wear out in no time. Pick on up, feel how light they are, then lift up and OE.


Dang speedfreak, I screenshotted those charts years ago and never was able to find that site again.. thank you!

On the direct fit for mini I couldn't find anybody who had stock locally or online. Even magnaflow didn't. I figure its the same story will all the old obscure cars.

Direct fit, pick up a large body univeral, that's direct fit enough for you, :p You'll have to either choose a 2.5" or a 2 1/4 unit then reduce one end to 2 1/4 or expand the 2 1/4 to 2.5 inch's.

[RoadWarrior222]

FYI update...

I got around to putting my headers on my Escort, and during that process discovered my EGR pipe had rotted out, so it was allowing extra air in when EGR active, this is probably why my NOx was near the limit. Would probably have done better with blocked EGR. So apparently my cat might have been working pretty good still, but it was developing a stress crack, and it was feeling restrictive like it was starting to block. Anyway, that's off and got an under-car Bosal cat for an Escort GT on it now. Replumbed the EGR (Literally, it's got a crap load of plumbing parts in now :D )

[Rrider]

I just had my order for a walker 3" universal cat cancelled. The online shop says they can't ship to CA.. I told them this one was for my pre-smog 1971 car but that didn't help.

[zin]

I just had my order for a walker 3" universal cat cancelled. The online shop says they can't ship to CA.. I told them this one was for my pre-smog 1971 car but that didn't help.

Shoot me the part number and I'll see if I can get it for you... I know a guy...:eyebrows:

Mike

[turbovanman²]

I just had my order for a walker 3" universal cat cancelled. The online shop says they can't ship to CA.. I told them this one was for my pre-smog 1971 car but that didn't help.

I can ship you one too, :eyebrows:

[johnl]

Bunch of scofflaws.

[OmniLuvr]

if they wont sell it to you, then it wont pass the visual inspection when the tech inspects the #'s on the CAT...

[zin]

I've never had anyone check the part numbers on any cat on any car I've ever owned ... now do a conversion, which would require a trip to the smog ref, and that would be a different story.

I don't think anyone with knowledge of what a cat does and how they work believes this is anything more than another way to get these affordable, older cars off the road... and their former owners into public transportation.

Mike

[88C/S]

I bought a cat from Chris and put it on the day I took it to be smogged. The guy said it was new because he could smell the "new CAT smell" when I pulled up. Passed! Just make sure it looks stock under the hood and you won't see the ref. Had to reinstall the airbox and associated hoses. I will buy a 3" CAT from Chris every time I take my car to be smogged.

[johnl]

The newer cars are Big Brotherized - computers that record and/or transmit data to the manufacturers and to the state.

In future, getting old cars, that don't rat out their owners, off the road will become more important to the elites.

[zin]

It will make the proposed GPS toll roads (every "public" road) program (http://www.liveviewgps.com/blog/proposed-vehicle-miles-traveled-tax-law-california-gps-tracking/) much easier to manage, with only a small number of older cars required to be fitted with a "snitch" GPS device...

Mike

[OmniLuvr]

I've never had anyone check the part numbers on any cat on any car I've ever owned

im glad, but it is the law, you can fail a visual inspection just because the cat is welded upside down because they cant "read" the numbers. older techs kind of dont give a crap, or if the same smog tech has seen you a few times, its not a big deal. but if you get a "green" smog tech, he will check...

[turbodaytona87]

I have to agree with 86Shelby, I'm glad we don't have emissions testing. It sounds like a pain

[Rrider]

Well the clean air part of it is good. If they were doing it right they would focus on the cleanliness and not serials and other fund generating bs. Do whatever the F you want with your ride as long as it blows clean. Its so complicated they way they do it.

[OmniLuvr]

^ 100% agree!!!

around here they wont pass you even if you have something as simple as an open air filter without a carb number on it, or even a carb legal intake that the sticker has fallen off...

[Tim]

I am very opposed to any emissions laws that interfere with my horsepower. Especially when we all KNOW it will have little if any impact on cleaning up the world while places like China can pollute all they want. It's nothing but a bunch of politicians trying to show they care so they can get re-elected. I see their game and I won't play it.

I'm fine with having clean air, but this is nothing but a money grabbing game.

Surely some TD members here know someone with an inspection license, a well placed $50 or $100 bill can make any car pass!
:nod:

Years ago, my cars only needed the safety inspection in Pennsylvania, and all the local musclecar people knew which inspection people to go to. Walk in with your papers, they go out and check the tread on a couple tires, go back in, write it out, put the sticker on the windshield, see you next year! Ah, the good old days........

[turbovanman²]

Trouble is CARB has become an EPA monster, I was just reading an article on those guys and they are out of control, they are trying to get CO2 classified as a dangerous gas? HUH? :confused:

[OmniLuvr]

ya, so now no one can even exhale...

[zin]

They have been taken over by people who believe the only thing wrong with the planet is PEOPLE.

So it's natural for them to try to outlaw breathing. Their job was completed in the late 80s, but government can't get smaller, only bigger, so they keep moving the goalposts and coming up with new justifications for their existence.

Go to their site and do a search for "remote monitoring",if you'd like to see how intrusive they already are...

Mike

[2.216VTurbo]

Haha, shi(tt)y day at work so I rode the Ducati to Cooks Corner ( A biker bar that has no hassles just cold suds and drinks) for a couple cold ones. End up chatting with an older guy who after I pry about his occupation tells me he works for CARB. I feign impartiality but then begin asking harder questions about such as, 'why do we need four overlapping government agencies that all control air quality'? and "even though my enthusiast car burns cleaner than OE 20 years ago when it was new, why wont it pass based on tailpipe alone, what is the importance and validity of the visual inspection?" He clams up after some rederick about 'improving the quality of life and health of CA citizens' blahblahblahcause he figures I know too much and have an agenda:D he made a quick exit with 3/4 of his beer still on the table and left on his Yamaha Harley-esque Royal Star. Shoulda placated him by telling him the Ducati has a catalytic convertor(for now):D

[Rrider]

Lolz, perfect. On behalf of the other ca tm'ers, a big thanks to you for giving the CARB guy an earful!

[johnl]

Good for you Alan. Did he have stock exhaust? or . . . . was it illegal "off road only?"
You know, for the race track that he's gonna ride his Harley wanna be on.

BTW, be sure to save the stock exhaust . . . .

Podcast Link - EnviroGreens want to kill you b/c you are human.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/2012/06/22/285-the-environmental-movement-wants-to-kill-you-since-youre-a-nasty-human/

[glhs571]

im glad, but it is the law, you can fail a visual inspection just because the cat is welded upside down because they cant "read" the numbers. older techs kind of dont give a crap, or if the same smog tech has seen you a few times, its not a big deal. but if you get a "green" smog tech, he will check...

^agreed. In fact that's one reason why I failed the emissions, the tech physically looked underneath the car to verify the numbers were correct.

[Badger]

Ive had that happen as well. The tech couldnt read the numbers on the cat......but Id been going to him for years and he let me slide =)

[johnl]

Low miles on the R/T's cat but then it sat for 6 or 8 months because . . . . had to replace the head gasket. Then I went to smog it. Failed - 1022 NOX vs 799 max. Replaced the cat and passed - 77 NOX. Wow, what a difference! I guess anti-freeze in the exhaust kills cats.

[A.J.]

Ya it does. DOHCRT (Vic) had an emission failure. He said it was a "newer" cat but was on his shelf for awhile. I told him it went bad. He doubted me but replaced it and his car passed.

[Badger]

just bought a walker calcat (pn# 80827) for my '89 CSX. Thinking of putting V-band clamps on either end of it so I can get it off and on fairly easily. Heard these cars will run better without the cat. Not sure if the VERY knowledgible source I was talking to was speaking of TD in general or VNT cars specifically since he is a VNT expert. Just trying to make up my mind on whether being able to take it off will actually be worth the extra work of having a shop install the cat that way. any advice?

[A.J.]

I bet you can't tell the difference either way. Maybe on an actual dyno but you'd have to have a pretty sensitive butt-dyno to tell. What size is the exhaust on the car you're talking about putting the removable cat on? If you have a small exhaust you might notice it more than if you have a large exhaust.

[Badger]

it will be 2 1/4. since its still a VNT I don't want crazy boost spikes. On the cars, the exhaust (at the very back of the car) actually gets a little smaller then 2 1/4 but Im gonna keep mine at 2 1/4 all the way to the back as well as changing all bends to mandrel wherever I can. The muffler will be a Dynomax ultraflow.

[johnl]

Badger - V-bands - I like that idea. I've got one car with the three bolt/three hole flanges - kind of a PITA. And a lot easier than the stainless clamps because they require a male/female overlap/insertion depth at each end of the cat and that forces you to drop the downpipe to replace the cat. Probably less prone to leaks too.

[Badger]

we will see how it goes John. I'll post how it turns out.

[Badger]

Im getting these from Columbia river. Should I get the pre welded extensions on the v-bands? If so, do I need the slip fit style or the butt welded style?

[johnl]

But for the expense - $56 x 2 = $112+shipping, for both sides of 3" V bands in mild steel, I'd get the pre-welded slip fit style because they will align easily and the welding is easier too and they can be cut off and used again easily when you have to replace the cat. Also, Columbia is going to get good welds with no pinhole leaks if for no other reason than they are doing lots of 'em and they will get the set up and jigging right, as compared to a welder who does one, one time, tacking and chasing it around his bench/bag/vice. And, Columbia resurfaces the V-bands after they weld them, eliminating likely welding warp and leaks.

[zin]

And, Columbia resurfaces the V-bands after they weld them, eliminating likely welding warp and leaks.

That right there is worth the price of admission! Nothing like putting time and $$ on something you expect to be "b!tch'n", and it ends up leaking or otherwise crappy...

Mike

[Badger]

thanks John! I will go that direction then.

[johnl]

It's only money. lol

[turbovanman²]

I bet you can't tell the difference either way. Maybe on an actual dyno but you'd have to have a pretty sensitive butt-dyno to tell. What size is the exhaust on the car you're talking about putting the removable cat on? If you have a small exhaust you might notice it more than if you have a large exhaust.

I bet he will, especially with a proper exhaust and muffler all the way back.

[johnl]

I tried it, at the track of course, easily felt on the butt dyno; A/F and EGT changed too.

[turbovanman²]

I tried it, at the track of course, easily felt on the butt dyno; A/F and EGT changed too.

Yep, more flow needs more fuel.

[Badger]

ok new cat on the car with the v-bands and now mandrel 2 1/4 where the exhaust (stock) goes even smaller on the way to the muffler and now a Dynomax ultrafow back there instead of the restrictive stock muffler. I can feel the difference for sure. Turnes out it didnt need to be smogged either, I just assumed it did so while I was at the smog place, had them run a pre-test.........NOX to high. Closer to passing at 15mph then 25mph but still........this car has always had a problem with NOX. Boyd thinks the stock swirl head has something to do with it.......my G head car pass without issue. Good thing I got a year to figure it out!

[johnl]

Wow, NOX high, even with a new cat?

[A.J.]

If you're running lean it will cause a high NOX condition. That happened when I put a 5.9 in my Dakota and ran it with the 5.2 computer until I upped the fuel pressure to compensate the larger engine with the smaller computer.

[Badger]

Im now thinking I had the doubleplay thats in the car on the wrong cal when I ran it through the pretest. Opps. The smog guy also said there is usually a break in period of a few hundred miles before a new cat really starts to work to its full potential..........not even 50 miles on this one yet. In a couple weeks I'll bring it back for another pretest (cost me a whopping $10 bucks) this time on the other cal (the stock one) and see what happens. My bad!

[johnl]

My daughter goes to school in Oregon, I own her car and its California registration is due and it needs a smog certificate.

She lives about 225 miles from the border; PITA, she'll have to drive 225 miles, hope her '98 Camry passes, then drive 225 miles back home.

I checked out transferring the car to her and registering it to her, or to me AND her, in Oregon, and, as I understand it, no smog certificate is required there, BUT then the insurance then goes up by $550/year because "no your CA policy can't cross the border to cover an Oregon car, we don't care that she's being driving it for 8 years without accident or even a ticket, it's a new policy, no multi car/multi year discount, blah blah blah . . . . . ."

So, does anyone know about a get around for this cross border insurance stuff?

[86Shelby]

Generally transferring ownership won't work well for that situation. I've tried it too. Why are you insuring someone else's car? is what the insurance companies ask. Any chance you two could be joint owners of the car with an Oregon title and registration? You still own the car at that point which shows you have an insurable interest. If your daughter spends more than 6 months out of the year there, even better if she has an apartment for a permanent address, the car most likely needs to be titled & registered in OR since it has situs.

I'm much more familiar with life insurance than P&C. So my good intentioned thoughts could be worthless.

[johnl]

Thanks. Yes, that is exactly what I asked my Allstate agent - "What if I transfer the car from me alone to me AND my daughter as joint owners and since she resides in Oregon (school and work) and has operated the car there there for the last two years, register the title it in Oregon?" Their decision tree commands that they buck it to an Oregon Allstate agent who launches into "Great, new customer, young driver, highest rate schedules" mode. I asked them "Surely you have other cases of people who live in one state but have a second home and cars in a different state, who object to being forced to open a new policy in a different state and to getting dinged with 'new policy' rates?"

[Ondonti]

My daughter goes to school in Oregon, I own her car and its California registration is due and it needs a smog certificate.

She lives about 225 miles from the border; PITA, she'll have to drive 225 miles, hope her '98 Camry passes, then drive 225 miles back home.

I checked out transferring the car to her and registering it to her, or to me AND her, in Oregon, and, as I understand it, no smog certificate is required there, BUT then the insurance then goes up by $550/year because "no your CA policy can't cross the border to cover an Oregon car, we don't care that she's being driving it for 8 years without accident or even a ticket, it's a new policy, no multi car/multi year discount, blah blah blah . . . . . ."

So, does anyone know about a get around for this cross border insurance stuff?

So you called and told them you will have one of your cars out of state?
In WA I never did inspections while I was out of state in school because I just filled out exemption forms for being out of state. Required Notary. Free from my bank.

Google...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bar.ca.gov%2F80_BARResources% 2F02_SmogCheck%2FFrequently_asked_Questions_Part_1 .html&ei=tsIHUtOxBLOgyQHFqYCQDw&usg=AFQjCNFYp2IF7kxiUpnlK_v0mfoJdJy1QA&sig2=r_8bsP-xGrYU5ANgIGEf9w&bvm=bv.50500085,d.aWc
Question: My renewal notice says my car needs a Smog Check. But the car is out of state, and will not be back for many months. It's too far to bring it back to California for a smog inspection. Can I get the car smog checked in another state and send the results here?

Answer: Do not obtain a smog inspection in another state; it will not be valid here. You need not bring it back to California in order to complete your registration. Simply fill out and sign DMV's " Statement of Facts " form (you need the free Adobe Acrobat reader to download and print this form). The registration tags will be mailed to wherever the car is currently located.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg256.pdf

[johnl]

Brent! Thank you very very much. You saved money and time for both me and my daughter. I poked around the DMV site and didn't find that and neither the Oregon or CA Allstate agents did either. Guess I didn't look hard enough. Thanks again.