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94GTC
07-10-2012, 03:11 PM
I just got off the phone with Jim Dove of Dove Mfg. and he is going to look at what it will take to build rockers for these. They make the rockers for Indy and many others now, so they know what they are doing. The first thing he told me is that it sound like a cammer rocker arm, as in 427SOHC ford, that they build also. Will have to see what the quote is.

turbovanmanČ
07-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Sweet, thanks. Try to get them to make them with a different lifter, IE something off the 3.5L LH engine or the SOHC Neon engine.

DoubleD
07-10-2012, 04:06 PM
Sweet, thanks. Try to get them to make them with a different lifter, IE something off the 3.5L LH engine or the SOHC Neon engine.

YES!!! I really don't like these lifters or the design of them one bit...

turbovanmanČ
07-10-2012, 05:44 PM
YES!!! I really don't like these lifters or the design of them one bit...

Well its the same design just a different size that's readily available and much cheaper.

94GTC
07-10-2012, 07:49 PM
I agree that if the tappets cost alot less that rockers would be more cost effective, because I know they are not going to be cheap, cause this is not a small block Chevy. It kind of sounds like he digs the odd ball, if they specialize in the 427 SOHC.

iTurbo
07-15-2012, 04:18 PM
What would it take to get this ball rolling? Any idea on price? Any price break if I buy in bulk?

RJ138
07-15-2012, 05:42 PM
Very interested here... Wasn't mopar2ya looking into something similar?

iTurbo
07-15-2012, 05:58 PM
Yeah, but Wallace hasn't updated that thread since early October '11. Not only that, it was a mechanical setup if I'm not mistaken and I would rather use a hydraulic lifter for my setups. Even if it means I have to sell all my new sets of FWDP lifters. I have had three rocker arm failures due to the roller bearing seizing up, wiping out a cam lobe and dispersing metal throughout the engine. I can't afford to have that happen again.

depenbrok
07-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Heres some pics of the prototype rockers T&D Machine are doing for my project.

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Turbo3Iroc
07-15-2012, 10:41 PM
Nice Eric!

Looks like the rollers will be replacable? What lifter are they set up for?

depenbrok
07-15-2012, 10:54 PM
Thanks Kelly! No lifters fully adjustable mechanical rollers. Yes the rollers will be replaceable. Fully rebuildable tip and shaft rollers.

turbovanmanČ
07-15-2012, 11:26 PM
Those are awesome, :nod:

Can they be made with a lifter I mentioned above? Aprox cost?

depenbrok
07-16-2012, 05:51 AM
I'm sure anything is possible. My one off set cost me $2500.00. I'm sure Sheldon will come up with a better price for everyone if he gets some orders

turbovanmanČ
07-16-2012, 01:33 PM
$2500, yikes, lol. :faint:

94GTC
07-16-2012, 01:41 PM
I am going to give them a few more days and call them on thursday. I am sure they wont be cheap, but I sure hope they are alot less than $2500!!!!

depenbrok
07-16-2012, 02:11 PM
Yeah man. You want the best it will cost ya! Lol

2.216VTurbo
07-16-2012, 05:40 PM
Wow,those are nice:eyebrows: I'm not even a big TIII guy and I must have a half dozen or so worn out rockers around. Do you have a target date for your Spirit to be up and running Eric? SDAC next year maybe:)?

depenbrok
07-16-2012, 05:55 PM
Thanks Alan
Hell yeah she'll be Rippen by then. Lol

lengel
07-16-2012, 09:04 PM
Nice stuff Eric!! What alloy are they made of? Stock geometery? Are the rollers stock diameter? Sorry for all the questions I have been wanting to make a set for my car for a while now. Cant wait to see this thing roll!

Adam

depenbrok
07-17-2012, 04:39 PM
Thanks Adam! They are made from 2024 billit,yeah stock geometery with stock sized rollers. I think Brian is more excited to see it go down the track than me. We'll all have to take turns rippen this thing.

2.216VTurbo
07-18-2012, 02:13 AM
Thanks Adam! They are made from 2024 billit,yeah stock geometery with stock sized rollers. I think Brian is more excited to see it go down the track than me. We'll all have to take turns rippen this thing.

Dibs on an SDAC 23 pass:eyebrows: What, you said we'll all take turns and I'd be kidding myself to think I'll ever have one of my cars at an SDAC:(

turbovanmanČ
07-18-2012, 02:48 AM
Dibs on an SDAC 23 pass:eyebrows: What, you said we'll all take turns and I'd be kidding myself to think I'll ever have one of my cars at an SDAC:(

Type less, work on cars more, :p

shackwrrr
07-18-2012, 08:09 AM
Type less, work on cars more, :p

Says the one with 30k+ posts.

Keito
07-18-2012, 08:27 AM
I was going to say, Pot, meet Kettle:p

94GTC
07-26-2012, 02:03 PM
I just got off the phone with Jim Dove, the owner, and he said it would not be a problem to do them but he is going to have to figure out a minimum to be feasible and pricing. He also told me that he would supply components such as rollers and shafts if he had something off the shelf that could be used. He has .750 rollers on hand, so I would think it would be close enough. I bought 4 Jessel rockers cheap off ebay, and am going to compare shaft size and length, to see if they would work. I think with a jig, the stock lifter bore could be opened up slightly to take an off the shelf lifter also. He thought in a week or so he would have a price worked up.

rich tideswell
07-26-2012, 06:26 PM
what about a brass bushing to take a smaller diameter off the shef lifter versus machining larger?

94GTC
07-26-2012, 07:41 PM
All the lifters I have looked at so far, are larger.

turbovanmanČ
07-26-2012, 08:27 PM
Says the one with 30k+ posts.


I was going to say, Pot, meet Kettle:p

It was a joke, hence the :p


All the lifters I have looked at so far, are larger.

Check out the 3.5 like I suggested earlier, slightly larger than our OE TIII lifters.

94GTC
07-27-2012, 11:50 AM
I told him the lifter I wanted to use would be slightly larger. I think the 3.5 uses the same as the Mitsubishi, but I may be wrong. The minimum order could bee the killer, but I will find out next week I guess.

Glmwpg
07-27-2012, 03:43 PM
Interested in seeing where this goes, final product, etc...

94GTC
08-02-2012, 04:13 PM
I talked with him again today. He wants me to check back next Wed. He thinks it will take more than ten sets to be feasible. They make them from a casting with their proprietary alloy. He Really wonders why we don't wantan adjustable with a solid cam at those revs. I really wonder how much is being lost with the lifters compressing at that rpm and valve spring psi.

86Shelby
08-02-2012, 09:05 PM
I don't understand why everyone that shows interest is against using a solid setup. It's not like Hondas have a ton of valvetrain noise when thier lash is set right; I know quite well they are quieter than my hydraulic rockers with newer lifters...

94GTC
08-02-2012, 09:45 PM
I know this does not directly translate to the TIII, but back in the day when I was racing my stocker, I was chatting with Bob Kammer, of Kammer and Kammer lore, he told me they were dynoing a 440-6 ,and only changed from hydraulic to solids, because they were curious, and they picked up 70 peak h.p. because the hydraulic lifters would bleed out as the rpm's rose, costing lift and duration. Like I said, this is not a direct comparison, but how are the tappets holding up to 7500 rpm with 240+ open spring pressure? Just thinking.

depenbrok
08-03-2012, 08:57 PM
T&D Rockers Mocked Up



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black86glhs
08-03-2012, 11:29 PM
Those are nice looking pieces.

GLHNSLHT2
08-03-2012, 11:36 PM
got larger pics?

Turbo3Iroc
08-04-2012, 12:26 AM
^ What he said!

Directconnection
08-04-2012, 02:30 PM
^ What he said!

What you said!

zin
08-04-2012, 04:21 PM
Curious to see how they mate with the valve...

Mike

Turbo Joe
08-04-2012, 05:24 PM
following this tread for sure :)

karlak
08-04-2012, 09:34 PM
Solids would be nice but add lot more to the cost. New cams will be costly. Research for solid lift cam profile would be $$$.

shackwrrr
08-04-2012, 09:58 PM
Solids would be nice but add lot more to the cost. New cams will be costly. Research for solid lift cam profile would be $$$.

What's wrong with running the hydraulic cam, we're not talking SBC's here.

GLHNSLHT2
08-04-2012, 11:00 PM
you lose lift in the lash adjusters. more so at higher rpms.

shackwrrr
08-04-2012, 11:15 PM
So running solids you gain that lost lift, I'm saying you don't need to redesign the camshaft just for solid lash adjusters, you just gain some lift/duration.

depenbrok
08-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Here is a closer installed pic and the rocker tip to valve relationship pic you guys asked for

Sorry for the small pics



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Kryp2nitE
08-05-2012, 10:32 AM
Subscribing. Interested to see where these go.

black86glhs
08-05-2012, 11:31 AM
Eric, I like them even more now. Those are cool.

depenbrok
08-05-2012, 12:44 PM
Thanks Bryan,
We'll get you a set when you decide to go TIII. lol

black86glhs
08-05-2012, 02:42 PM
I stay 8V because I'm poor....lol.
Or is that cheap?

karlak
08-05-2012, 07:41 PM
What's wrong with running the hydraulic cam, we're not talking SBC's here.

I may be wrong but I thought the cams were physically different from hydraulic to solid even if they had similiar profiles.
Been many years since I have touched a car that had a cam option.

shackwrrr
08-05-2012, 08:31 PM
I may be wrong but I thought the cams were physically different from hydraulic to solid even if they had similiar profiles.
Been many years since I have touched a car that had a cam option.

Maybe you are thinking roller/flat tappet?

If the lifter rode on the cam it might make a difference but with the lifter on the valve it wouldn't matter.

I think solid is where its at for the TIII.

zin
08-06-2012, 03:24 PM
I'll be interested to see how these work insofar as valve tip longevity and rotation of the valve (for seat longevity).

Personally, I'd love to see the same style of interface the the stockers used, but realize that adds cost, and if these will not cause a premature failure, why not keep it simple?

BTW, since these are not "production" cars, that the average buyer can't be bothered with additional maintenance or inspection, our definition of "acceptable wear" will be much different. I doubt we'll complain if it doesn't make it to 80K miles without the need to be rebuilt, etc... Heck I doubt too many of us drive them that far before changing something radically or selling them!

Mike

shackwrrr
08-06-2012, 09:28 PM
this is what I planned on using

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC109451.html

black86glhs
08-06-2012, 09:48 PM
Will those work with the T-III rockers?

94GTC
08-06-2012, 09:58 PM
How wide are those TD rockers between the shaft and the valve? Not to be a real pain in the rear, but could you tell me the approximate size of the aluminum used for these l-w-h? Thanks in advance.

shackwrrr
08-06-2012, 09:59 PM
Im not sure, They are 8x1.25 thread. I have some 8mm studs laying around and a couple rockers. I need to make a press in insert for the lifter bore, then tap the inside to 8mm. The only issue I see is with how thick the insert might be.

black86glhs
08-06-2012, 10:27 PM
Gotcha....would be awesome if they worked.

shackwrrr
08-06-2012, 10:37 PM
Gotcha....would be awesome if they worked.

Maybe if I found some in 10 or 12mm thread.

lengel
08-07-2012, 12:40 PM
this is what I planned on using

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC109451.html

Im going to be useing these if I ever get around to making a set for my car. Stock rocker come every close to hitting the valve cover. I think if these were used on stock rockers they would hit the valve cover. maybe the jam nut could be used on the bottom side of the rocker, and the top of the stud trimed flush with the top of the rocker. A custom valve cover spacer to jack the cover up a little may work too.

Adam

94GTC
08-08-2012, 03:16 PM
Well, for a minimum ten sets, think the price is more than the market will bare. $1820 a set + $1K for the molds. ARG

turbovanmanČ
08-08-2012, 06:55 PM
Those are badazz rockers, holy crap. I have 2 issues, one, the part hitting the valve should be flat otherwise its going to mushroom the valve tip and number 2, didn't Stephane break solids?????


Solids would be nice but add lot more to the cost. New cams will be costly. Research for solid lift cam profile would be $$$.

Cams aren't an issue for figuring out grinds, my guy does unreal work and you don't really need a new grind unless you going for every last HP.


Well, for a minimum ten sets, think the price is more than the market will bare. $1820 a set + $1K for the molds. ARG

HOLY SHITT, :faint:

depenbrok
08-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Thanks simon
I left the design up to the professionals at T&D those guys make the best stuff out there in my opinion. I can guarantee I'm going to put them to the test. If they mushroom the valve tips so be it. I have no idea what Stephane did. I guess Wallace would be a good person to ask that question.

lengel
08-09-2012, 08:19 AM
Thanks simon
I left the design up to the professionals at T&D those guys make the best stuff out there in my opinion. I can guarantee I'm going to put them to the test. If they mushroom the valve tips so be it. I have no idea what Stephane did. I guess Wallace would be a good person to ask that question.

May be you could run a lash cap on the valve. Lash caps are hardened so it wont mushroom as easy, and if they do you could just replace them. Just and idea.

Adam

Directconnection
08-09-2012, 10:37 AM
May be you could run a lash cap on the valve. Lash caps are hardened so it wont mushroom as easy, and if they do you could just replace them. Just and idea.

Adam

I'd recommend a lash cap. The stockers have one, primarily to keep proper contact on the stem tip as the rocker angle changes through the lift range. Otherwise... the sweeping action over the tip could cause issues.

depenbrok
08-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Good idea guys! Thanks for the info

lengel
08-10-2012, 04:00 PM
this is what I planned on using

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC109451.html

Ordered a set of these today. Going to see if we can make these work in a stock rocker.

shackwrrr
08-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Ordered a set of these today. Going to see if we can make these work in a stock rocker.

Awesome, I was playing around with a 8x1.25 stud and a rocker that I think I got from you. I thought of a time sert in the rocker but the hole is .040 too big for even the "big sert"

GLHNSLHT2
08-10-2012, 07:35 PM
weld in a piece of aluminum into the rocker and drill and tap. easy no?

black86glhs
08-10-2012, 09:01 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Put a bushing in there.:thumbup:

glhs727
08-10-2012, 11:58 PM
Ordered a set of these today. Going to see if we can make these work in a stock rocker.

old school vw FTW LOL I haven't seen those since I built the motor in my VW bug back in 1995...!

Shadow
08-16-2012, 02:31 PM
Just an FYI; Solid = different cam profile, so running solids on a hyd cam profile is a crap shoot. Not saying it won't work (obviously the lower the lift/duration the more it may work) just saying that a proper solid set-up uses a completly different cam profile to work properly.

turbovanmanČ
08-16-2012, 03:45 PM
Just an FYI; Solid = different cam profile, so running solids on a hyd cam profile is a crap shoot. Not saying it won't work (obviously the lower the lift/duration the more it may work) just saying that a proper solid set-up uses a completly different cam profile to work properly.

If you want to get the maximum benefits of course, but switching to a solid lifter will only help if the hydraulics were collapsing. Most don't want the hassle of resetting valve lash but TIII's, its cake, especially if you have good valve cover gaskets, :p

zin
08-16-2012, 04:04 PM
Well, it's more the "take-up ramp" than the profile as far as potential problems, but with the "lazy" profile of a hydraulic cam, I doubt there would be any durability issues. We'd just be leaving the potential a solid profile allows for on the table... UNTIL, someone makes a cam specifically for the solid lash adjusters, then we can break something else, like rocker arms!

Mike

94GTC
08-16-2012, 09:22 PM
With the adjuster on the valve not the lobe like a OHV I really don't think it will make much difference.

shackwrrr
08-16-2012, 09:40 PM
The reason solid cam profiles are different on a flat tappet in block cam is because a solid tappet is just a hollow tube making it really light. The light lifter allows a faster ramp up and more duration without floating.

zin
08-17-2012, 08:09 PM
...and no hydraulic section to collapse, allowing higher spring pressures and so higher RPM potential and more aggressive lobes possible...

Lots of potential for added performance, but only if the cam is made to take advantage of the potential, though still compatible with a lesser lobe.

Mike

94GTC
08-18-2012, 12:13 PM
The rollers on this are on the cam on with either tappet, or adjuster. Both cam mfgs, Crower and Bullet, that I talked to and Jim Dove, who makes OHC rockers for the 427 cammer, said the rocker on valve is not the same principal as solid lifter on a camshaft. You want enough clearance so at the parts most thermal expansion, you have minimal clearance.