a413 transmission valve body mods and bleed hole mod.

[jefo]

Hey Guys,

I am going to be getting my transmission in my 89 turbo voyager with 110k miles ready for more boost.

My planned mods:
1.)bar and plate transmission cooler after and inline with factory cooler, with an inline magnetic filter.
2.)tighten bands/adjust kickdown cable
4.)sonnax hd rear strut
5.) VB mods: remove ball, drill separator plate (4 holes), block accumulator, immobilize shuttle and bypass valves. And the bleed hole pressure mod.

I have 2 questions:
1.) Will my shift points be changed from stock with any of these mods if I do not touch the line pressure adjustment screw?
2.) What size hole should I drill for the line pressure mod? The trans is in great condition but I don't want to damage it from too much pressure. I have read up to 1/16" but I was thinking 0.46" or maybe less? http://www.turbododge.com/forums/images/smilies/extras/shrug.gif

Let me know,
Thanks

[Dohc Rocks]

I built my trans to the following specs:

1) Mod output shaft cup for Torrington (see Turbovanman)
2) Tighten up forward clutch pack
3) TIG planet pinions
4) TIG kickdown band tabs
5) Sonnax HD L/R strut
6) 404 steels in the direct clutch for a 5 disc setup and use a spare forward clutch pack snap ring
7) DIY valve body mods
8) Torqueflite's line pressure mod using smallest bit available... at 1000 rpm I have 100 psi and 130 at WOT.
9) Higher stall torque with lock up

If I set my kickdown cable as per factory adjustment, the trans upshifts way to early and I have no part or full throttle kickdown.
If I set the cable so at WOT the throttle lever is at max pull, part throttle is intermittent and and full throttle kickdown usually goes overkill and I slaml the rev limiter.

My governor is not modified in any way FWIW.

The car is a 98 Neon Coupe with 2.4 and a PTE BB5858

[turbovanman²]

Are you taking the trans apart? If not, don't do the bleed hole mod, you will blow your clutch's.

I would go smaller than 1/16", its harsh for a daily driver.

Yes, the bleed hole will raise the shifts points a bit so you'll need to play with the governor a bit.

He gave a good list above of what to do.

[jefo]

No I will not be taking it apart. I just want to beef it up to handle more boost.

How much did it change the shift points when you drilled the bleed hole? I'm thinking a 1/32 hole would still increase the line pressure, but be more forgiving on the unrebuilt parts/ clutches with some gap.

If not, would just the valve body mods, other than the bleed hole, be enough for my trans to be reliable for up to the max boost the mitsu turbo can put out?

[turbovanman²]

DO NOT do the bleed hole if your not tightening up the clutch packs, you will blow it up in short order.

Do the valve body mods per this site, drill and tap the case so you can adjust the line pressure and turn it up 2-3 turns, add the sonnax rear band strut adjust to spec, adjust the front band-snug then back off 1.5 turns, large tranny cooler and run a good dexron or TDH tractor fluid.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031209062246/http://www.omniturbo.com/Mopar+Pages/Tranny%20upgrades%20detail.htm

[jefo]

Ok, how do you think the trans will hold up to drag racing and up to 18psi with my trans plans? I just want to prepare the trans the best I can without rebuilding it. I have yet to touch the engine in terms of performance, and the trans is in perfect working order.

Also, I don't want to have to mess with the governor. Will the shifts remain mostly the same at WOT? I just want to raise them using the line pressure screw if need be.

My total plans are:

-remove check ball, drill separator plate, drill and tap accumulator holes, immobilize shuttle and bypass valves
-new fluid (Mopar ATF +4)/ filter
-add magnetic drain plug
-reusable pan gasket
-stacked bar trans cooler inline with oem setup but after the oem cooler. also add inline magnetic filter
-tighten bands/ adjust kickdown cable to oem specs
-differential pin retainers, replace differential pin with new one (updated if exists), updated dowel to hold diff pin in place.
-drill and tap case for a plug, for access to line pressure adjustment screw.
-add heavy duty sonnax reverse/low strut

Thanks for the help!

Oh, and I decided to delete the ford spring from the lineup, as I know how much you support it. ;)

[Dohc Rocks]

Save your $$ on the fluid and run Walmart TDH fluid....

I run Castrol Transynd but only becuase I get it on the cheap.

Either install a Phantom Grip and diff tabs or bite the pillow and get a Peloquin (love mine)

[turbovanman²]

PG's suck, don't waste your money, OBX's work fine, I am using one.

Your list is good, forgot about the diff savers, good idea.

What you've suggested is ok BUT the biggest problem is, the slop of the clutch packs, they might be ok for awhile so monitor how it shifts.

Any line pressure adjustment affects WOT shifting, so adjust the line pressure until you hit the point of hitting the rev limiter, then adjust back.

[Vigo]

I took a trans that was slipping (i.e. LOOOSE clutch packs) and did the bleed hole in a very small size (probably smaller than 1/32) and it stopped slipping, shifted better, and didnt break the clutch hubs.

Honestly the mod goes from super mild to super wild based on the hole size. You can always drill it small now and drill it bigger later. I say find a set of tiny tiny bits and give it a shot.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, I don't see why the clutch upgrade is needed unless you're doing it to a TBI trans... or putting enough power through it that your problem isn't high apply pressure, it's not quite high enough apply pressure.

[Vigo]

I think Simon is worried about breaking the snap ring lands on the clutch drums. Personally i dont think thats a problem unless you drill the hole too big. My honest opinion is 1/16 is too big.

[turbovanman²]

When you up the line pressure you make the clutch's hit harder, so the more clearance you have, the more the clutch's hit, so yeah, things can/will break so I'll add this then, do the line pressure mod at your own risk.

[Dohc Rocks]

I decided to pull my trans this weekend and play with the governor.
I am running a stock Neon SOHC governor but my line pressure is 100 psi and 140 full throttle.

My upshifts used to be all messed up because of the line pressure being jacked.

My fix...

Take the primary governor weight and stuff a BB in the --- end, then heat it up and fill it with solder.

Reinstall and blammo - WOT upshifts @ 6200 rpm !!

Lucky me !

[turbovanman²]

Why did you pull the trans to change the governor? :confused:

I got my part throttle shifts perfect by lightening the little valve. When I get it back together, going to alter my WOT shifts, 7K is too high as I want to short shift to 3rd.

[Dohc Rocks]

I pulled the trans to pull out my torque converter AGAIN to see why its dumping filings into my pan.
I installed a Neon DOHC converter and it's better than ever.

The governor was just what I played with while I had it apart.

I do need to play with part throttle kickdown though....

[Rampage16V]

what make you think the filings are from the torque converter?

---------- Post added at 10:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------


I think Simon is worried about breaking the snap ring lands on the clutch drums. Personally i dont think thats a problem unless you drill the hole too big. My honest opinion is 1/16 is too big.

I agree 1/16 is too big I think maybe 30 thou would be a better size

[Dohc Rocks]

I stripped down the trans and everything looks perfect. Also there are no aluminum parts in the trans to wear.

The stator however.... which is likely cast as opposed to the billet I requested is likely the culprit.... as is my once again failed lockup.

The stock converter is working great so far !

I'm sending the dud to TCS for am impartial third party inspection.

It had better have the parts in it that I paid for

[Rampage16V]

Sounds like you have everything covered.....let us know what happens

[turbovanman²]

Dean, when a converter lets go, it fills the trans with metal, ask any trans rebuilder, :mad: I assume the stator rubs on the housing and it files itself to bits. This one was supposed to have the bearing but it let go within so I am assuming someone messed up and gave me the wrong one.

I've had 2 let go on me recently, the last one from TCS filled it with so much metal my trans is junk, I have to replace everything but the case and OBX, :(


I pulled the trans to pull out my torque converter AGAIN to see why its dumping filings into my pan.
I installed a Neon DOHC converter and it's better than ever.

Was is it stalling at? Mine would only stall to 2500 rpm.

Did you strip it down? That metal gets everywhere, just doing that, its a mess, :censored:

[Dohc Rocks]

I gutted the case, verified everything was good and reassembled. Input shaft endplay is .045 like when it was new.

The DOHC converter stalls @ 2750 ish which actually helps spool as it loads the engine sooner.

By this time I'm already pushing 5-7 psi so it works out rather well.

As for the filings, there we none except for the ones in the pan, I think I caught it early.

[turbovanman²]

Nice, I wasn't so lucky, :(

I could only stall 2500 rpm and 5 psi, very frustrating.

Didn't I tell you that a high stall for you was not needed? :eyebrows:

[jefo]

Out of curiosity, how much does the bleed mod raise the shifts? Enough to warrant governor mods?

[turbovanman²]

Out of curiosity, how much does the bleed mod raise the shifts? Enough to warrant governor mods?

It seems every trans is different, but it will slightly alter the shifts, how much, its a crap shoot.

[jefo]

Ok guys, plans got changed a bit. I got this work done.

-raised line pressure around 1/2 turn
-new fluid (Mopar ATF +4)/ filter
-tighten bands/ adjust kickdown cable to oem specs
-differential pin retainers
-add heavy duty sonnax reverse/low strut

to do:
-stacked bar trans cooler inline with oem setup but after the oem cooler. also add inline magnetic filter

It shifts great, and at about 5500 rpm. My transmission guy who has worked with alot of a413's for racing didnt recommend the vb mods with a 110k mile transmission.

[turbovanman²]

My transmission guy who has worked with alot of a413's for racing didnt recommend the vb mods with a 110k mile transmission.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

That's silly, they help extend the trans life, he's wrong.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yah, it's only half dead at 110K... fully dead zombie mode is at 200k plus..

[jefo]

He said something about the clutch pack splines stripping out with hard shifts.

[Rampage16V]

That's highly possible seen them strip out on stockers

[Vigo]

Yeah, i dont think its a power thing. Just once it starts happening, it gets worse pretty quick (in transmission terms anyway, could be thousands of miles).

[turbovanman²]

He said something about the clutch pack splines stripping out with hard shifts.

Never stripped out a clutch disc since 2003.

[Rampage16V]

Me either but this is used disks in a 100k mile Trans he was talking about. I've seen this happen with stock na 2.5s before I can see his point.

[turbovanman²]

Me either but this is used disks in a 100k mile Trans he was talking about. I've seen this happen with stock na 2.5s before I can see his point.

True but I've had literally dozens and dozens of 3 speeds apart and only had one trans with stripped out rear clutch teeth. I think its a very rare occurance, probably based on miles and abuse.

[Rampage16V]

I've been a Chrysler Trans tech for about 25 years seen it a few times

[RoadWarrior222]

given the eleventy bajillion made though, it's gotta be bad luck. Like that piece was in the bottom corner of the oven when they were treated or something, or was first or last out of the ingot mill, or first or last of the pour or whatever. Or was the last one that passed at a glance before the tooling was sharpened up... given that blunt tools can shear and tear, make stress risers, even just at a microscopic level.

So I would say it's unlikely but somewhat predestined, if it's gonna die it will die, maybe a bit sooner, whereas it's got a very good chance of living. Not like you can dissassemble 20 of the things and go through and say, "AHA that's a Wednesday part from mould cavity B3, that one will hold 500HP" ... and have any better luck... unless anyone has a secret database :D

[jefo]

There was a bit of copper or brass in the pan also. Any ideas what that is? I believe he told me but I do not remember.

The magnet had a little bit of fur too.

[RoadWarrior222]

Ahh, at a guess, bushings/washers on teh input shaft, maybe he said that because he thinks stuff is getting loose and rattly up there already.

[turbovanman²]

I've been a Chrysler Trans tech for about 25 years seen it a few times

So yeah, a few times, just like we've all said, :p


There was a bit of copper or brass in the pan also. Any ideas what that is? I believe he told me but I do not remember.

The magnet had a little bit of fur too.

Metal is usually the converter, brass are the bushings/washers or pinion gear shims. A little fuzz is ok.

[RoadWarrior222]

If the brass color is like traces of paint and you can barely feel it, no worries... if it's more like gold glitter to chunky, then a concern.

[jefo]

Heres my new trans cooler setup: B&M 70268. The cooler on the left will completely replace the stock one on the right. What do you guys think? How much more do you think it will cool compared to the stocker? The new one is fully exposed to air, as the old one's airflow was half covered by the bumper.

Also, should I put the filter before or after the cooler? The reason I put it on the left is to make room for the intercooler I am going to put in front of the radiator.

http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/8391011/

[135sohc]

Filter before the cooler so if something decides to nuke it will catch it before polluting the cooler.

[turbovanman²]

That will cool nicely, better design than OE.

Exactly, filter before cooler so it stops junk from ruining the cooler when the trans lets go, :p

[jefo]

Hey, new question guys. I now got rid of the factory trans cooler and am running 2 b&m 70268 coolers in series placed in front of the a/c.

I know it is probably overkill, but would the added length the fluid needs to travel affect the transmission? Any downsides to this setup?
My van stalls at 4100rpm (stock converter with mitsu) so I would think keeping the fluid cool is important.

I'll post pics tomorrow







.

[RoadWarrior222]

The cooler goes in the lube circuit, right at the end, before it would dribble back to the pan anyway. It's likely that a high amount of restriction would cause lube problems, but think it would take more than 2 coolers... I'm suspicious of tiny filters.

[wallace]

Are they in series or parallel? If in series you double the pressure drop..not sure it matters.

[RoadWarrior222]

good point, if you're worried, put them in parallel, then it restricts less than the factory one I should think.