Diesel Injectors

[Johnny]

Want to replace the ones in my 92. My questions are...
Have you done this?
Best place or brand of injectors to get?
Something better?...stock?

[speedfreek500]

I would call your local diesel performance shop, they will have a few different choices for ya. You will need to bring your old ones for a core charge maybe. They will give you the best prices and info you will need, thats what i do when upgrading or replacing them.

[440dart]

If your running stock turbo get some 50-75HP or if you plan on upgradeing the turbo at some point put some 100+ HP injectors in it you wont beleive the difference it will make not only in HP but spool. Put in a GSK at the same time i put a 4,000rpm kit in my 98 you have a ve pump but it will work the same it doestn really add any HP it adds alot more drivability. Stock your truck will turn around 2600-3000rpms but what people dont understand is that even though it turns 3k they are designed to start defueling as an example around 2100. So if you put in a 3k gsk it will fuel hard all the way to 3k then defuel rapidly this gives a superwide powerband compared to stock. I like the 4gsk but you gotta put in stiffer valve springs as stockers will float

[Johnny]

gsk...???

[440dart]

governor spring kit

[Johnny]

Just the spring or the pin also?

[turbovanman²]

Google injection pump mods, lots of basically free stuff you can do to wake these up big time. I would call some of the bigger name company's for injectors, as they sell decently out the door. All I can think of right now is Beans but they should be able to point you in the right direction.

Injectors, pump mods, exhaust and intake will make your truck fly and get better MPG, :nod:

[bakes]

BD deisel just a couple of mins drive from Simons shop.

[turbovanman²]

BD deisel just a couple of mins drive from Simons shop.

VERY expensive.

[bakes]

valley injection or is that the sam company
nothing is cheap when it comes to deiesels LOL

[Johnny]

Injectors, stage one, best price I found is $494.00 for the six.

[chilort]

What was the first year the B-Series went in the Dodge trucks? Was it '92? The 1st year had the smallest injectors used in the B-Series in the Dodge trucks. If you do have the 1st year, then even going with newer parts would be an upgrade.

Be careful with pump modifications. My father worked for Cummins as a field tech for decades. One of the things I remember growing up hearing about were some of the backwoods pump modifications people would do to these and really eff them up.

[turbovanman²]

valley injection or is that the sam company
nothing is cheap when it comes to deiesels LOL

Same company, stupid money, at least double over the US prices.



Injectors, stage one, best price I found is $494.00 for the six.

Not bad, :nod:


What was the first year the B-Series went in the Dodge trucks? Was it '92? The 1st year had the smallest injectors used in the B-Series in the Dodge trucks. If you do have the 1st year, then even going with newer parts would be an upgrade.

Be careful with pump modifications. My father worked for Cummins as a field tech for decades. One of the things I remember growing up hearing about were some of the backwoods pump modifications people would do to these and really eff them up.

The mods are really simple, just basically de-limiting the pump.

[Johnny]

Any issues with getting the injectors out?
I heard that they stick and need to pull them with something.

[dixiedodge7369]

After that many years they will be tight there is a smaller slide hammer that works very well

[Johnny]

I heard that, I'll make something.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Also am then going to have the valve adjustment checked.

[chilort]

The mods are really simple, just basically de-limiting the pump.

Just because it is simple doesn't mean it is smart. You can put a map clamp and a Granger valve on a stock TM and crank the boost up to 25psi. It is simple to do that.

While I suspect Johnny doesn't plan on going ape $h!t, two of the reasons they limited the B-Series so much in the early Dodge trucks were 1) transmissions, and 2) rear ends.

[trannybuster]

The GSK and fuel plate will make a huge difference, you may not even want to bother with the injectors because just those mods will overtake that stock trans and it will shudder if its an auto then your going to be buying a torque convertor and a good ones 1000.00+, like a Goerends...

---------- Post added at 09:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

Its not the trans thats the issue mainly, those stock TQ's wont hold crap for torque.

[Johnny]

Changed my injectors this morning with stage one injectors 25 to 50 hp gain and they say 1 to 4 mpg better fuel mileage. "IF" you keep your foot out of it :)

Was not that hard of a job, everything went well. Took me just shy of 3 hours. Started the truck...no leaks. warmed it up and took it for a test drive. Power is back, it's not sluggish any longer. If you step on it hard, black smoke and goes REAL good.

Having the valve adjustment checked this afternoon.

[Johnny]

The valve adjustment and having the old injectors tested was less than $100.
The old ones were not working right...spray pattern was degraded and leaky also.

After driving it more, its nice. Less "gas pedal" to go the same speeds. On the
hill I went up it didnt need to shift down. So seems a lot better drivability wise!
Hope the mileage is better.

[chryguy]

There is no "fuel plate" in a VE pumped ISB. Bigger injectors, and pump modifications are the (fuel side) path to higher performance.

Hey Johnny, another good upgrade is changing out the diaphragm lift pump for something a little better. The piston lift pump I have listed here is a low pressure version of the pump that comes on the "P" pump 12-valve engines.
Keeps the pressure higher (12-15 psi where the VE likes it) as opposed to the 2-5 the stock pump supplies. It also pumps more fuel, thusly recirculating more fuel, keeping it cooler. In addition, when the piston pump fails it doesn't dump fuel into your crankcase.:thumb:

You have to cut away some of the lifter insulation on the side of the block, but it's a fairly straight forward installation. Takes a couple hours at most...if you do it leisurely.;)

Below is the parts list...the prices here are several years old, as I installed mine a couple years back.

Do a search at DTR and you can read-up about it...

CG



Pump,Fuel Transfer P/N#3936320 $153.23
Gasket, Cover Plate P/N# 3639258 $1.75 ea (2 required)
Tube, Fuel Supply P/N# 3914753 $29.29
Spacer, Mounting P/N# 3914284 $10.40
Washer, Sealing P/N# 3963983 $1.00ea (2 required)
Total cost $196.42 + Tax

[Johnny]

I just changed mine...or I'd do it now.
I has all the power I need for now, any more would not be healthy for the trans.
At least now it will get out of it's way...much better than stock.

[440dart]

Just because it is simple doesn't mean it is smart. You can put a map clamp and a Granger valve on a stock TM and crank the boost up to 25psi. It is simple to do that.

While I suspect Johnny doesn't plan on going ape $h!t, two of the reasons they limited the B-Series so much in the early Dodge trucks were 1) transmissions, and 2) rear ends.



If you somehow screw up an injection pump you shouldnt be driveing a car or truck about the only way you can break them is if you drop something in them and fire it up.

Since he has a ve pump if you turn up the pump make sure you do it with a buddy have the intake hose off so you if your engine runs away you can put a peice of wood over the turbo inlet to choke the engine out. Ive turned the ve pumps up as far as they would go before run away i did make a difference but not as much as takeing the fuel plate out on a p-pump

[chryguy]

Piston transfer pump isn't a performance upgrade...

It pumps more volume, so the pump is lubed and cooled better. It also supplies the VE with a slightly higher supply pressure, so it doesn't have to work as hard.

The fact that when it fails it doesn't fill the crankcase with fuel is reason enough by itself to install one though.

Keep it in mind for when this one takes a dump...:eyebrows:

CG

[The Pope]

too high of up pump pressure will blow out the seal in the VE pump, so they have to stay under 15 PSI

I run the 60 HP / 100 ft lb injectors and love them

I run the 3200 RPM spring, a must

Advanced the tiloosen losen up the pump and push thto wardsowards the valve cover a 1/4" or so

I have the safety collar removed and I am running the fuel pin all the way in, then I run the star wheel to the top and come down slowly to get spool and smoke where I want it. You have to turn down the idle when you max the power screw, but it is really worth it for mileage reasons, turned the truck way down for emissions and the fuel drops to 14-Maxed. Maxxed out I got as high as 28 MPG on the 65 MPH highway, but normally I am in the mid lower 20s with it. I was thinking turned up would use more fuel, the higher fuel pressure just makes the truck run better.

I don't know if you broke the plastic end link from the linkage to the pump yet. I made two with heim joints and Matt didn't want the other one so shoot me an email if you want the other. Did you add the shift kit and good converter yet? The local converter builder I know here will mod the converter for $150, adds the aluminum stator bushing, roller bearings, etc. The converter is really big for helping. But doing the shift kit and converter is important.

[trannybuster]

How high egts say with 4000lbs steep grade?

[Johnny]

Well the injectors helped fuel mileage BUT not much. (went from 15 to 17 mpg) Something else is wrong.
Has nice power though.

[bakes]

have you bumped you injecton pump timing up? and get rid of the stock lift pump and put a holley black pump on it or spend some coin and put a air dog on it.

and when you going for MPG keep the rpm's close to 1500- 1650 after that the fuel needed goes way up.

[94GTC]

Do you have an auto or a 5 speed? I got 16-17 towing my Demon at 65m.p.h and I had a dual wheel truck. I had a 16cm exh housing on my turbo and it really helped spool. The stock is 21 cm and you have alot of lag. An HE 341-351 is a REAL nice upgrade, and the HE 341 can be found for less than an HE 351. With the bigger sicks, you could use the air. The only thing I did to mine was the housing, bumped the psi up and screwed in the afc wheel.

[Johnny]

Its an Auto

[Johnny]

How would I know if the injector pump was bad?

[black86glhs]

How would I know if the injector pump was bad?Check it's police record?

[Johnny]

:D Good.

[bakes]

before any diagnose of the injection pump make sure you take a fuel pressure supply readings to low of pressures can cause all sorts of problems and if to low it will wipe out your injection pump from lack of lube

[Johnny]

I am getting way too much fuel, black smoke. New fuel pump (not injector pump). New filter.

[bakes]

I am getting way too much fuel, black smoke. New fuel pump (not injector pump). New filter.

is your boost normal levels (lack of boost can cause black smoke)

[Johnny]

Good Boost! Good power.

[bakes]

have you played with the pump setting at all ?

[bakes]

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/0807dp_bosch_p_pump_diesel_fuel_injection/viewall.html

[Johnny]

Mine is the 92 style pump.
I did not mess with the adjustments but a shop did and gave up, could not turn it down enough.

[bakes]

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/2nd-generation-12v-dodge-cummins/24-p7100-injection-pump-tuning

---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/1st-generation-dodge-cummins/9-ve-injection-pump-tuning-up-a-ve-injection-pump

[The Pope]

Mine is the 92 style pump.
I did not mess with the adjustments but a shop did and gave up, could not turn it down enough.

hmm. So you changed the up pump as it is called. What did you use? If the up pump is over 15 PSI is blows the seal system in the VE and it'll pump too much fuel all the time..

I have my pump adjusted with the main fuel pin ran all the way in till it bottoms, then I back off the idle screw a little over an 1/8". After that it got a 3200 RPM fuel spring, a MUST. I also ground down the fuel pin. Once you get all that done make sure the fuel pin is facing the right direction, there is a little pin that falls into the gap in the fuel pin you remove. If turned the wrong way you don't get fuel with boost. Then turn up the timing.

The start wheel makes you blow real black under boost AND makes the engine run real hot. So start off with it at the top and slowly screw it down until it starts to smoke. I have mine at a haze. My truck though needs a new VE pump though, it blows smoke rings when I turn it up under boost lol. Just bought the turbo back 4" exhaust with muffler from diamond eye. Didn't notice so much top end but the spool up change is night and day. Used to get 28 MPG highway unloaded, we'll see where it is now. Turned up is flunks the test blowing a 72 with a max of 40, turned it down and passed with a 2 but the mile cut in half!

[94GTC]

Check your afc diaphragm and make sure it does not have a hole in it.

[Johnny]

I will. I am taking notes and when I can get back to it I'll do some looking.
Thanks everyone!

[RoadWarrior222]

With gassers you've got a BSFC change that makes it hard to figure if you're actually using less if you don't need to downshift, with diesels it should mean you're using less fuel period.

[Johnny]

Be careful with pump modifications. My father worked for Cummins as a field tech for decades. One of the things I remember growing up hearing about were some of the backwoods pump modifications people would do to these and really eff them up.

Well it was my injector pump that was bad. It's being rebuilt by Oregon Fuel Injection.

[The Pope]

Well I'd rather be doing the pump... Just got done a couple years ago taking out the trans because I shreaded the flex plate. NOW after trans mods and a new built performance converter the converter is destroyed. So out comes the trans again....

[Johnny]

Injector pump replaced. Fuel mileage towing a Reliant wagon on a car dollie was only 14.6...for the 250 mile trip. That sucks. Still black smoke.

[bakes]

how did they time the pump ???

[Johnny]

No idea, a guy that seemed to really know what he was talking about did it. Would I ask? Not sure what to even ask.

[The Pope]

Injector pump replaced. Fuel mileage towing a Reliant wagon on a car dollie was only 14.6...for the 250 mile trip. That sucks. Still black smoke.

Take the round top off the top of the pump, that is the star wheel. Run it all the way to the top to cut down on boost fueling. I added bigger exhaust and left my wheel down a few turns, truck rolls smoke but also eats fuel. So you turn the star wheel up to lean it out a bit under boost.

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/images/1stgen/ve-pump/ve-pump.jpg

[Johnny]

Take it off by the four screws? Or some how the cap on top?

[Johnny]

I talked to the guy that did my truck. (Oregon fuel injection rebuilt the pump) ...and he said
the pump is set at stock, not turned up.
I do have aftermarket injectors...but when I put them in the mileage went up 2 mpg.

[turbovanman²]

Rolling coal is too much fuel, hence your shitty mpg, you need to remove some fuel, I would try as the pope says. Almost 15mpg towing isn't that bad.

[bakes]

for a cummins 15 towing light is crappy try 18-19 and past 23 un loaded

[Johnny]

Thats what I used to get.

[bakes]

John I would install a EGT gauge and try to lean it out shot for 750 - 850 egt cruze and 1100- 1200egt full load
also a boost guage

[94GTC]

Instead of trying to "lean" it out, wrong term for a diesel, you need to look at the turbo and intake side, because you need more air. Too much smoke means to little air.

[turbovanman²]

Instead of trying to "lean" it out, wrong term for a diesel, you need to look at the turbo and intake side, because you need more air. Too much smoke means to little air.

Or too much fuel, so Bakes is correct in "leaning" it out.

[Kryp2nitE]

Do you have a boost gauge, tested for leaks?

[Johnny]

Yes tested for leaks. Boost is fine.

[94GTC]

I went to Diesel and FI school and 20+ years working on them, and leaniong out a Diesel was/is never used. In a gas engine you can lean the combustible mixture, in a Diesel with no intended restriction on the inlet, you either have proper fueling,if you don't have enough fuel, you develop less boost, so it self regulates fuel to air volume at low fuel levels or it is over fueled. If you have smoke with a diesel, you have too much fuel for the amount of boost. Sorry, but rich/lean, is not used in the diesel lingo. John, I pmed my phone# so call me. PSI does not equal volume, you may need quicker boost, smaller exhaust housing or a larger turbo, HE341/HE351, ding ding ding. The HC1 is out of breath, as configured.

[Johnny]

BUT the dam thing is stock and was fine once. The thing has had....
been pressure tested (no leaks)
they said turbo was still tight
boost is going to 24.5
checked pump timing
new injectors
valves adjusted, new gaskets
fuel heater was leaking...0-ring replaced
rebuilt fuel pump by Oregon Fuel Injection
new pick-up fule pump (lift pump)

used to get 24 empty on the highway
went down to 14
new injectors brought it up to 16
new injector pump did not help mileage, but does runs good.

[turbovanman²]

I went to Diesel and FI school and 20+ years working on them, and leaniong out a Diesel was/is never used. In a gas engine you can lean the combustible mixture, in a Diesel with no intended restriction on the inlet, you either have proper fueling,if you don't have enough fuel, you develop less boost, so it self regulates fuel to air volume at low fuel levels or it is over fueled. If you have smoke with a diesel, you have too much fuel for the amount of boost. Sorry, but rich/lean, is not used in the diesel lingo. John, I pmed my phone# so call me. PSI does not equal volume, you may need quicker boost, smaller exhaust housing or a larger turbo, HE341/HE351, ding ding ding. The HC1 is out of breath, as configured.

I know how diesels work, I know what fuel does etc, don't get picky with terms, it still applies. Fuel equals boost, if he's getting boost then 2 things, too much fuel or not enough air, so again, LEAN it out or reduce fuel or increase boost which if the fueling isn't a match, will blow black still.

If he has the right size turbine housing on the H1C then it will be ok, if not, that's part of his problem as they are too large hence why Dodge switch to the HX and HY series.

[hfro555]

Dude i think Google is more help to you about the replacement of the injector of the diesel because i have no much knowledge about to change the injector..

[bakes]

I just had a flash back to a non cummins diesel problem I ran into check the intercooler for oil / condensation plugging it . The one I had was half full .