Converting From Lotus to Masi Motor, Electrical?

[2.216VTurbo]

So the motor in my 93 RT needs a complete rebuild(and then some:() and I have a good running Masi 16V motor sitting in the shop soo... Most of the conversion is pretty strait forward, what I'm wondering what would be the least amount of wireing conversion I'd have to do. My half baked ideas are:

Run the Masi motor off the RT engine harness, the grey plug from the cam position sensor can be extended and plugged into the grey from the HEP and the black plug from the crank postion sensor can be plugged into the black plug from the HEP with the same net effect right? That way the SBEC II ECM would work right? Or is that wishful thinking? All Masi 16V ECM's are SMEC so not like I can just plug and play one from a TC to the Lotus harness.

I do have a complete engine harness from a Masi but then I would have to convert it at the firewall plug(I hate electrtical work BTW:mad:). I haven't even compared the how different they may be so I don't have any idea of how many pinouts would need to be changed.

Also I have an SBEC from a 91 turbo shadow that I suppose could be socketed and recal'd for the Masi motor, would probably run the engine as is but the fuel and timing maps would be way off I'm sure.


So which idea sounds least half baked? Any thing else I haven't thought of yet?

[RoadWarrior222]

Well you can get the indexing for the cam sensor right by dickering with the diz, and running off the coilpack, but I don't see how it works for the crank signal, since it's half engine speed... and those are indexed some way before TDC aren't they?

[shackwrrr]

Run the flywheel from The R/T and the 568 and you're set with the crank signal. A custom made shutter wheel for the dizzy would Mimmic the cam sensor. That way you could run the coil pack (or COP if you wire it up). I'm sure the calibration would be somewhat close too.

[Reaper1]

I'm with Ian. That makes the most sense.

I don't think the stock TIII cal would run it very well. You could putter around, but it's not going to make very good power. The ignition advance, pumping efficiency, and fuel curves are all going to be quite a bit different if what I know about the Masi is true.

[Pat]

I'm with Ian. That makes the most sense.

I don't think the stock TIII cal would run it very well. You could putter around, but it's not going to make very good power. The ignition advance, pumping efficiency, and fuel curves are all going to be quite a bit different if what I know about the Masi is true.

I agree. If you get it to work, you likely wont be satisfied with how it runs.

[GLHNSLHT2]

And the question is, How do you get an R/T to run reliably? :)

[Lotashelbys]

And the question is, How do you get an R/T to run reliably? :)
Cant be done

[GLHNSLHT2]

That big of a pile eh? :)

[Lotashelbys]

That big of a pile eh? :)
Ya and I dont want to argue anymore. I will just drive mine everyday and leave it at that.....

[Lotashelbys]

But,to help Allen out. Do you have a 92 TI SBEC in your parts stash somewhere? If so it would be easy to convert it to that by lengthening and shortening some wires and getting a cal burned for the Masi using that route. The only thing im not familiar with on the Masi is what the coil plug looks like or where its at lol. The 91 will be a PITA to get the cruise to work and such. The 92 would be more plug and play....

[2.216VTurbo]

But,to help Allen out. Do you have a 92 TI SBEC in your parts stash somewhere? If so it would be easy to convert it to that by lengthening and shortening some wires and getting a cal burned for the Masi using that route. The only thing im not familiar with on the Masi is what the coil plug looks like or where its at lol. The 91 will be a PITA to get the cruise to work and such. The 92 would be more plug and play....

Hmm, I like this idea, that shadow turbo *might* have been a 92, I'll dig around and find the SBEC and see what it is. All I remember for sure is that it was a 5spd turbo car. You have me running the Masi dizzy with this method right? I think I would rather do that than try and make the coil pack set up work...

[Lotashelbys]

Yes Alan you can run the Masi dizzy with the TI electronics...

[Turbo3Iroc]

How bad is the engine that you are considering this swap? Do you really not want it to be TIII anymore or would a shortblock help you out?

[2.216VTurbo]

How bad is the engine that you are considering this swap? Do you really not want it to be TIII anymore or would a shortblock help you out?

The cylinder head shop that has done dozens of heads for me in the last 15 years uses bead blasting to clean the heads, I saw that the oil galley plugs weren't removed but since I was distracted by my personal life drama I ran it anyways. The motor lasted less than ten miles before it lost major power and was low on oil pressure, brought it back to my shop & pulled the pan and the bearings are wiped out. I surmised that some blast media got flushed out of the oil passages from the head and badly scored the crank. Cams are hard to turn in the head as well so they are likely damaged some. It's no secret that I find the TIII motors to be less desireable to maintain and work on than the Masi 16V motors, so no, I'm not gonna try and fix it at this time. Shame that I just ported and polished the head, used a FWD perf ported Ex manifold and installed a S70 turbo all for naught:mad: The RT may look a little odd with Maserati on the valve cover:lol:

[GLHNSLHT2]

damn that sucks. Any way for you to get them to compensate you some? Maybe you can put on one of those prototype VC's that don't have Maserati written on them? :)

[iTurbo]

Have you taken the valve covers off the bad TIII yet? I've had rocker arm failures before that got metal all over the place. This has happened to me three times.....once on each of my Spirit R/Ts that I only discovered shortly after buying them, and the third time it happened to me during my ownership of the red Spirit R/T (2nd time for this car).

The last time it happened I got really lucky and found it before any major damage. You couldn't hear or really tell anything was really wrong despite the rocker arm failure and the engine running on 15 valves. The engine sounded fine when I pulled it out and disassembled it, but the crankshaft still had to be turned .010/.010 at machine shop. Cam lobe on offending rocker was wiped down to the base circle.

At any rate, I think I'm going to pop the oil galley plugs off of all the blocks (TIII or not) I have awaiting assembly and bring them to the car wash for a high psi flush.

[Turbo224]

Ha ha, im surpirsed you didn't start this swap a lot sooner!

[turbovanman²]

I agree with Jackson, run it as T1 setup per say as it uses a dizzy, you just need to extend or shorten some wires and then you can make a custom cal, use a normal coil.


Ya and I dont want to argue anymore. I will just drive mine everyday and leave it at that.....

Ditto, my damage is self inflicted, lol.

[Reaper1]

The coil on the Masi is the standard oil-filled coil. You could easily change that to the epoxy E-coil to shorten the coil wire and the primary wires. Come to think of it, that may be something I do to mine!

[86Shelby]

Would it not be possible to simply use a TI harness, add the wires for the intake temp sensor and use the SMEC that you and Rick have installed on a few Masis for more performance? Maybe it was a Daytona TII SMEC? I might be out in left field...

[GLHNSLHT2]

The coil on the Masi is the standard oil-filled coil. You could easily change that to the epoxy E-coil to shorten the coil wire and the primary wires. Come to think of it, that may be something I do to mine!


Chris, IIRC that epoxy coil was already bolted to your masi motor.

[Reaper1]

You are correct, however it was bolted the the A/C mount if I'm not mistaken, but I'm intending to use A/C on my car, so I can't use that spot. That's why my plan was to use the stock oil_filled coil in the stock location. Hoever after rethinking the bennefits I'm sure I can come up with a mounting solution! ;)

[Turbo3Iroc]

The cylinder head shop that has done dozens of heads for me in the last 15 years uses bead blasting to clean the heads, I saw that the oil galley plugs weren't removed but since I was distracted by my personal life drama I ran it anyways. The motor lasted less than ten miles before it lost major power and was low on oil pressure, brought it back to my shop & pulled the pan and the bearings are wiped out. I surmised that some blast media got flushed out of the oil passages from the head and badly scored the crank. Cams are hard to turn in the head as well so they are likely damaged some. It's no secret that I find the TIII motors to be less desireable to maintain and work on than the Masi 16V motors, so no, I'm not gonna try and fix it at this time. Shame that I just ported and polished the head, used a FWD perf ported Ex manifold and installed a S70 turbo all for naught:mad: The RT may look a little odd with Maserati on the valve cover:lol:

Thanks for the full explanation. Good luck with the swap. :thumb:

[440dart]

And the question is, How do you get an R/T to run reliably? :)

Its not yours so why you worried about it add something usefull jay

[4 l-bodies]

Ouch! Sorry to hear that Alan. Think that is a wise move on your part. When you have that many vehicles its all about commonality. That is probably going to be a first, a Masi motor in a IROC RT. I seen plenty of 8v transplants but can't recall another 16V variation transplant.
Todd

[16vGLHS]

I can help you Alan. Call me tomorrow or this weekend. Let's make it Masi powered!
-Rick

[Vigo]

This is going to be a sweet project. Sounds like at least 2 or 3 possible approaches to engine management, none of them SUPER hard. It'll definitely be unique!

Go for it!

[BadAssPerformance]

Masi powered RT... I dig it :thumb:

[iTurbo]

I had given this operation some thought recently. I have a Masi 16v motor, and no shortage of cars that could use a decent engine, including my red Spirit R/T. The Masi engine I have even has the correct motor mounts to allow it to drop right in to the Spirit R/T.

Me personally, I would probably try to run it on stock TIII electronics and get a custom cal later on. Seems easy enough to mod the wiring and run an A568/flywheel/clutch from a TIII which would enable the crank sensor. I would make a custom bracket for the TIII coil pack and contact Rich Bryant or turbovanman for a custom set of spark plug wires. Not sure what the heck I would do about the cam sensor though; that was the gotcha for me. In the end I decided to just keep the Spirit R/T TIII powered and leave the Masi motor for something else.

[RoadWarrior222]

Not sure what the heck I would do about the cam sensor though; that was the gotcha for me. I'd have figured on cobbling something up to the drive pulleys if no other options available...

[moparman76_69]

I like simplicity so go with the T1 electronics and use the dizzy setup. Sell the T3 parts for profit.

[ShelGame]

Alan - The '91 T1 code is 90% the same as the '89 code. So, copying the Masi cal specs into a '91 T1 computer is easy. In fact, I've already got all the cal specs in a template file for the T/SMEC code. I just haven't given it a final check for release yet.

A '92 computer would be quite a bit harder to calibrate for the Masi due to the 3D code it uses. But, it's still possible.

Given the differences in the electronics between '91 and '92/93, I think I'd go with reprogramming a '92 T1 computer.

[2.216VTurbo]

Alan - The '91 T1 code is 90% the same as the '89 code. So, copying the Masi cal specs into a '91 T1 computer is easy. In fact, I've already got all the cal specs in a template file for the T/SMEC code. I just haven't given it a final check for release yet.

A '92 computer would be quite a bit harder to calibrate for the Masi due to the 3D code it uses. But, it's still possible.

Given the differences in the electronics between '91 and '92/93, I think I'd go with reprogramming a '92 T1 computer.

Experience and knowledge FTW! Thanks Rob:hail:

[Directconnection]

Masi powered RT... I dig it :thumb:

I don't.

I like the Masi setup, wouldn't mind having one myself, but this is cardinal sin. Like replacing a '63 Max Wedge motored car with a 426 Hemi.... Both cool and have greatness, but me no likey.

[GLHNSLHT2]

It'd be the only R/T I'd buy! Can't wait to see it done Alan.

[4 l-bodies]

I don't.

I like the Masi setup, wouldn't mind having one myself, but this is cardinal sin. Like replacing a '63 Max Wedge motored car with a 426 Hemi.... Both cool and have greatness, but me no likey.
Screw the 426 Hemi, V-10 Viper power FTW!!! Dare to be different.:D Alan, make it twin engined and AWD, Lotus in the front and Masi in the rear. With nitrous thrown in for good measure of course!
Todd

[2.216VTurbo]

I don't.

I like the Masi setup, wouldn't mind having one myself, but this is cardinal sin. Like replacing a '63 Max Wedge motored car with a 426 Hemi.... Both cool and have greatness, but me no likey.

Get this Steve, a few years ago I talked with a guy in Oregon that ran a fix it shop that did lots of Chryslers over the years. Seems the guy had a 16V TC Masi and a Spirit RT. He loved the TC to drive but the RT motor better.(:confused:Crazy I know:p) He pulled the Lotus motor out and put it into the TC:thumb: Quite possible the only TIII powered TC Masi on the planet...

[turbovanman²]

Get this Steve, a few years ago I talked with a guy in Oregon that ran a fix it shop that did lots of Chryslers over the years. Seems the guy had a 16V TC Masi and a Spirit RT. He loved the TC to drive but the RT motor better.(:confused:Crazy I know:p) He pulled the Lotus motor out and put it into the TC:thumb: Quite possible the only TIII powered TC Masi on the planet...

Smart man, :eyebrows:

[4 l-bodies]

Smart man, :eyebrows:
No, I would say more like a glutton for punishment (lol):D Some say tomato, some say tomoto.
Todd

[GLHNSLHT2]

+1 to that todd. Anyone looking at the motors side by side should know which one is superior.

[Reaper1]

+1 to that todd. Anyone looking at the motors side by side should know which one is superior.

^+1! :nod:

[turbovanman²]

Wow, the TIII hate hurts, :(

[4 l-bodies]

Wow, the TIII hate hurts, :(
All in fun Simon. What else would we talk about on these forums without a little banter? :thumb:
Todd

[Reaper1]

True!!

[iTurbo]

Well I love them both lots, but I gotta say in the end the TIII wins in my opinion because of parts availability alone.

[MNmopar]

Well I love them both lots, but I gotta say in the end the TIII wins in my opinion because of parts availability alone.

agreed.

[turbovanman²]

All in fun Simon. What else would we talk about on these forums without a little banter? :thumb:
Todd

I know, except Jay isn't kidding around, :(

[Reaper1]

Both engines have about the same parts availability really. The TIII just has more vendors, but it also NEEDS more parts availability!! LOL

[Turbo3Iroc]

How many 16V TC's were made over the 2 years?

[Reaper1]

501 production units.

[Turbo3Iroc]

So you realize there was nearly 4 times as many T3 cars produced before you count the Mexican cars? I'm not getting in the one better than other argument but that alone speaks for parts availability.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Both engines have about the same parts availability really. The TIII just has more vendors, but it also NEEDS more parts availability!! LOL

:lol:


So you realize there was nearly 4 times as many T3 cars produced before you count the Mexican cars? I'm not getting in the one better than other argument but that alone speaks for parts availability.

Very valid point. The T3 at least had 2 regular body platforms were as the TC was one $40k car that was a lot of money back then.

[Turbo3Iroc]

:lol:



Very valid point. The T3 at least had 2 regular body platforms were as the TC was one $40k car that was a lot of money back then.

Right. By no means am I saying a TIII is common but parts for it are far more readily available than for the Masi.

[Reaper1]

TIII Actually had 3 production body platforms. A, G, and J. Don't for get the Mexican Phantom R/T's! (LOVE those cars!)

[RoadWarrior222]

Right. By no means am I saying a TIII is common but parts for it are far more readily available than for the Masi.In which case, the Neon heads pwn all :p

[Reaper1]

in which case, the neon heads pwn all :p

ok....gtfo!! Lol ;)

[Vigo]

Touche!

[JasonFlood]

And when you count the number of heads that were replaced because they cracked (could have been fixed) and the Chrysler warranty whore monger mechanics that got the factory or service contract to replace EVERYTHING in the head (after all a water leak REQUIRES new cams and rockers valves and springs????).....well the parts supply just doubled the number of cars produced!!!! Now add in the aftermarket support 20 years later and all the changes in technology that allow us to reproduce anything the factory thew at us relatively inexpensively today.........


Now you know why I bought my old car back 10 years after I sold it!!!

[RoadWarrior222]

Riiiight, now we just need to know where Chrysler buried the master stash of broken returned heads...

[turbovanman²]

If we could get rocker arms, then that's all that's left for hard to get and expensive parts, :nod:

[JasonFlood]

Wasn't someone working on rocker arms? Thought I saw a thread about that............

[turbovanman²]

Yes, Wallace, but until we see them in operation, still a pipe dream, :(

[2.216VTurbo]

If we could get rocker arms, then that's all that's left for hard to get and expensive parts, :nod:


Man, if they only made a nice flowing 16V 2.2 based head WITHOUT rocker arms, *that* would be the shznit:p

[turbovanman²]

Man, if they only made a nice flowing 16V 2.2 based head WITHOUT rocker arms, *that* would be the shznit:p

And if they only made more than a dozen of them and they didn't fetch unobtanium prices, :p

[Reaper1]

Yeah, but what if there was one that didn't need 15 things done to it to be reliable!?

LMAO! This is fun! I see this as friendly jabbing, BTW. I'm not trying to be a d*ck or anything.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Man, if they only made a nice flowing 16V 2.2 based head WITHOUT rocker arms, *that* would be the shznit:p


And if they only made more than a dozen of them and they didn't fetch unobtanium prices, :p


Yeah, but what if there was one that didn't need 15 things done to it to be reliable!?

LMAO! This is fun! I see this as friendly jabbing, BTW. I'm not trying to be a d*ck or anything.





LMFAO!!!!!!!!! Poor Simon.

[2.216VTurbo]

And if they only made more than a dozen of them and they didn't fetch unobtanium prices, :p

I'd say there are 600+ out there somewhere... A whole 16V TC last week here on TM.com for $2K C'mon, you can part out the car for more than that...

[turbovanman²]

I'd say there are 600+ out there somewhere... A whole 16V TC last week here on TM.com for $2K C'mon, you can part out the car for more than that...

Only 600?, damn, high production or what.

They made a few more TIII's than that and cheaper to buy than a Masi, :p

[moparman76_69]

It was said before but, if we are basing superiority on parts availability, then there should be loads more hybrid head cars running around.

[Pat]

It was said before but, if we are basing superiority on parts availability, then there should be loads more hybrid head cars running around.

If it were based on parts superiority, we wouldn't be screwing around with these cars at all! :-)

[RoadWarrior222]

yah, we'd all be driving ze swiss supercars wiz ze cherry liqueur filled chocolate valve stems.

[86Shelby]

Where do I get those?!?