Operation Oil Geyser: Trans reseal, rear main seal HELP

[ohlarikd]

Ok, for about 2 years I have been messing around with an oil leak. Tried a million 'easy' things, but no luck. I guess it really is the rear main seal, or something close to it. I know I've blabbed about this in a lot of other threads, but this one is for REAL!

1) I need help removing the 525 trans
2) Then replace rear main seal, and anything else in that area of block that may be leaking oil
3) Reseal transmission while its out without massive disassembly.
4) Axle seals? Anything else?

I have the FSM, but it is not really helping me in a step by step for transmission removal. Planning on starting this weekend, but usually I get stuck in 5 minutes, then waste the rest of the day. So, maybe I can gather some info during the week, since most of you guys are a helpful giving group!

So - any advice on how to remove the trans? General step by step, then details for those tricky places? I feel like I have to remove the axles somehow, then the shift and clutch linkages...

THANKS! The rear main seal is $3.81. This is a lot of effort for that little part, but gotta do it. Tired of oil everywhere.

Derek

[RoadWarrior222]

Transmissions are easy ...
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?64660-Transmission-Install-Nightmare&highlight=

:D

No just kidding, but yeah, it's a bit annoying when they refer you all over the manual for the stuff that needs doing until you get to the trans, be aware, there is a glitch in the sequence in an FSM or two, which since the Haynes and Chilton copy them mostly, appears in those too. You might have to take something off before it's actually called for.

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

Oh, quick way to get teh axles out, undo swaybar at ends, swing it down, undo the balljoint clamp at the knuckle, pop knuckle off BJ on control arm (push control arm down,) pull knuckle out, axle comes out and gushes fluid out of the diff, so have something under it. Then you can tie up the axles out the way.

[ohlarikd]

Transmissions are easy ...
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?64660-Transmission-Install-Nightmare&highlight=

:D


I only read the first page and I am already exasperated. I see there are 4 more pages to read... But this is good, I need to get my expectations reeeeaaaallly low.

Derek

[ohlarikd]

So just to get me started this weekend, is the first step gonna be getting both axles out? I assume the way RoadWarrior describes will leave the spring in place? I guess it will make more sense when I see it.

There is a half shaft on the other side, is there a special way to get that out? Procedure?

THANKS! I know I sound lazy, but I am looking for sage advice while also looking at FSM.

Derek

[turbovanman²]

Undo the center sway bar mounts, remove axle nuts, remove ball joint bolts, pry down control arm to release ball joint, put a bucket under the inner axle, remove drivers axle, same for passenger except unbolt bearing at engine, remove whole shaft as one unit. The axle nuts are tight, over 100 ft/lbs, so if no air tools, you'll have to jam the hub so it wont' turn.

[ohlarikd]

Undo the center sway bar mounts, remove axle nuts, remove ball joint bolts, pry down control arm to release ball joint, put a bucket under the inner axle, remove drivers axle, same for passenger except unbolt bearing at engine, remove whole shaft as one unit. The axle nuts are tight, over 100 ft/lbs, so if no air tools, you'll have to jam the hub so it wont' turn.

To release ball joints, do I need any special air chisel or something? I needed that on a Mustang once, had to rent it. I do have the air impact gun though, a lifesaver.

Derek

[RoadWarrior222]

You might find it useful to knock a regular cold chisel into the split in the clamp to help them release if they're being difficult. They're usually not too bad, if you soak them in penetrant.

---------- Post added at 06:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 AM ----------

Simon's method has you taking off the axle nuts in the hub, this is for complete axle removal, it's easier to loosen them before you raise the car if you want to do that. In the method I posted, you can leave them attached at the hub, there's usually enough clearance with pulling out and turning the hub and the joints to pop them out, and leave them attached, and bungee them up above the trans.

Also I missed the bit about loosening the center swaybar clamps, before you take off the end clamps and swing it down.

[ohlarikd]

Ok - thanks guys, will heed all the advice and get started Saturday. Let's see how far I get....

[turbovanman²]

You can pry down with a long bar between the Kmember or frame then push the control arm down, or put a chain around the control arm, loop it together, few inch's of slack, slide a very long bar thru it and the use that, more leverage.

I prefer to remove the cv axles, especially if the equal length setup won't come apart, then you don't have a chance to damage them and also crack your head on them when they are dangling.

[ohlarikd]

Looking for a little tip here...

I am trying to remove the lower ball joint. The joint is loose, but it seems like the control arm will not lower enough to allow it to come completely out. I used a jack to lift compress the spring to get a little more room, and I did get the passenger side out. The problem is the tension of the spring caused it all to kind of snap apart - seemed a little dangerous.

Is there a way to get the control arm to lower more to get the joint out? I am considering just removing the control arm busing bolts and getting rid of the whole control arm.


Derek

[ohlarikd]

Looking for a little tip here...

I am trying to remove the lower ball joint. The joint is loose, but it seems like the control arm will not lower enough to allow it to come completely out. I used a jack to lift compress the spring to get a little more room, and I did get the passenger side out. The problem is the tension of the spring caused it all to kind of snap apart - seemed a little dangerous.

Is there a way to get the control arm to lower more to get the joint out? I am considering just removing the control arm busing bolts and getting rid of the whole control arm.
Derek

CANCEL CANCEL - I got it the axles out. Just had to figure out the best way to pry them and finally it came out reasonable easily.

Next step is.... not sure, guess I just start unbolting things...

[ohlarikd]

The FSM shows transmission removal, except it seems to go overboard. Its saying to remove all these guide pins and set screws, etc., basically taking off covers and removing parts. I think it meant services the transaxle while in the car. I assume I am not going to do all that - just remove all the dogbones, clutch cable, shifter, and support brackets? I have to support the engine as well.

Gonna stop for the day and try to drop it out Sunday - hopefully get a few hints here first.

THANKS so far, you guys have been spot on with the axle removal. Now that I know how, its pretty easy actually.

Derek

[RoadWarrior222]

Think the FSM tells you to use a support fitting across the top of the engine bay to support the motor, the generic way to do it is with a jack and a foot length of 2x4 or similar to spread the load, under the oil pan. Usually need the cover off in the driver wheel well to get it off the trans mount. SDAC guy says that heavy duty rubber strap bungees can be used for taking the weight off the tranny and letting you maneuver it on and off the motor. Haven't tried that myself, I'm assuming he means the ones that are like 1/2" by 1/4" rubber or thereabouts.

You might wanna let the motor droop on teh mount a bit, like let it drop a few inches from where it sits, which can make things a little easier, but remember the trans could just slide off the dowels by itself when you take the last bolt out if you do that and don't have it supported...

I had a square of 3/4 ply under everything so if I screwed up and dropped the trans it would hit that rather than concrete, then also when I lowered the trans onto it, it was easy to drag out.

[ohlarikd]

I'm trying to figure out how to get the rod shift linkage off without taking it all apart. I am just studying it right now, where it goes, what its attached to. I can remove it from the selector shaft - not sure what else. Same with clutch cable. Not sure how to get that off at the moment. I know these are dumb questions, but the first time is a little perplexing.

[ohlarikd]

Shift linkage: I removed 2 C-clips and got the linkage mostly removed. I just have the Selector Shaft - not sure which way to get that off. Unscrew the nut (blue circle) or somehow get off that joint (red circle)? Or something else? Not even sure how to get that nut off shift selector, since it moves?


38389


Thanks!

Derek

[turbovanman²]

You simply need to carefully pry off the rod ends-white plastic connectors with a prybar. You don't need to remove all the brackets, linkage etc, just the ones that shift the trans from the car so to speak.

Clutch cable, push up the arm at the trans with a jack, then slide out the metal clip and pull the cable out.


What spring came out earlier? Nothing like that should happen unless you undid the strut top and the strut came apart, if so, your lucky it didn't seriously hurt or even kill you.

[ohlarikd]

You simply need to carefully pry off the rod ends-white plastic connectors with a prybar. You don't need to remove all the brackets, linkage etc, just the ones that shift the trans from the car so to speak.

Clutch cable, push up the arm at the trans with a jack, then slide out the metal clip and pull the cable out.

What spring came out earlier? Nothing like that should happen unless you undid the strut top and the strut came apart, if so, your lucky it didn't seriously hurt or even kill you.


Thanks for the late reply! So I can get under that white plastic cap and pry it off without damaging it? Ok, will give that a try. Without doing it before, its kind of a mystery fastener.

I may have mispoke, but no spring came out - the strut spring was fastened top an bottom. But the dump jack I uses moved and the control arm snapped down since it was under tension - so that didn't seem like I was doing the right thing. The next one I did, I was able to not use the jack and just got the pry bar into a better position to get me the leverage I needed. Easy now that I know.

Again - thanks for making this weekend productive but getting me some quick answers. I hope to get the trans out tomorrow, then I can start figuring out how many things are leaking. I can tell my oil pan is leaking, even though I resealed it. Those rubber end caps don't see to be sealing that well.

Derek

[turbovanman²]

The control arm should not spring down, especially if you've undone the sway bar. :confused: There is nothing to push it down per say.

Glad your making progress, :thumb:

[ohlarikd]

The control arm should not spring down, especially if you've undone the sway bar. :confused: There is nothing to push it down per say.

It's only cause I compressed the spring by jacking up the hub to... ah forget it! I did it the right way on the next one and it popped exactly like you guys said with no issues and no springing or surprises.

Derek

[ohlarikd]

Before I get into a situation that the trans crushes me, how many bolts do we have?

1 on the lower engine mount
1 on the rear lower bracket on the engine side
A few on the top drivers passenger side bracket
3 bolts at the top near the engine block (which will be replaced with dowels to ease installation)
1 Nut on the firewall side of trans near engine block.
I guess there are two more on the trans on the bottom? Gotta look again. Plus some dowels I will see eventually.

That's all I see currently. Doing some searches and looking at FSM to be sure, there must be more...


Derek

[ohlarikd]

I am not exactly sure how this trans is suppose to come out. Do I lower the whole things a little bit to get an angle to slide it off? Or is there enough room to leave engine level and slide it off the dowels? Doesn't seem to be moving at the moment. This FSM really isn't very helpful in this regard. Anyway still working at it, but any timely advice would be helpful. Just not sure what is suppose to happen.

[ohlarikd]

I give up for the day. I have every bolt removed, every bracket, yet still it remains firmly attached. I have no idea, and I am to pissed off to continue.

Am I suppose to smash it with a hammer? Should it slide off easily? I have no clue.

[RoadWarrior222]

Hmmm...

One thing I forgot toe mention is that that speedo drive cable should be removed and the SDS disconnected, it's easy to pull the whole unit out. Doubt it's holding it there though, would cause a snag halfway down though.

Trans mount on drivers side is off?

Could lower the motor a bit, while supporting the drivers side of teh tranny, you should see it starting to part/crack at the bottom.

[ohlarikd]

Hmmm...

One thing I forgot toe mention is that that speedo drive cable should be removed and the SDS disconnected, it's easy to pull the whole unit out. Doubt it's holding it there though, would cause a snag halfway down though.

Trans mount on drivers side is off?

Could lower the motor a bit, while supporting the drivers side of teh tranny, you should see it starting to part/crack at the bottom.

The drivers side mount is off - I can see the whole engine/trans unit tilt down free when I lower the jack. So the trans seems free from the car, but it still seems attached to engine. I guess it can 'stick' over years and years of being there?

If I jack up the trans, the whole engine/combo goes up - it doesn't split.

Derek

[ohlarikd]

You would think even if there was one bolt left somewhere, the trans should move a bit and at least crack open. But nothing, it's like it's magically glued together. Am I suppose to tap it with a hammer to break them apart?

[turbovanman²]

Did you remove/undo the starter?

You should have 2 bolts that go in thru the front bracket, 2 more 18mm bolts on top, 15mm starter bolts-1 or 2 of them, then on the back side, another starter bolt and another 18mm bolt.

[ohlarikd]

Did you remove/undo the starter?

You should have 2 bolts that go in thru the front bracket, 2 more 18mm bolts on top, 15mm starter bolts-1 or 2 of them, then on the back side, another starter bolt and another 18mm bolt.

A ray of hope here. No I did not disconnect the starter. I took a quick look this morning and totally missed that. I will hopefully try that tonight. Good shot here I think....

Thanks!

Derek

[ohlarikd]

Ok, after moving starter out of the way, I found the other mystery bolt. It was above the passenger side transaxle output, hidden from view. I felt around up there and finally found it. I can move the trans around finally... of course now I know its easy... once you know where to look. Thanks for the STARTER tip!

However, I don't know what to do exactly, I afraid to break something. Am I suppose to slide the trans towards the drivers wheel well FIRST? Then drop it down? I am afraid to bend some shaft or something. I have never seen these parts before. What is the proper procedure to separate and lower the trans then? THANKS!

Derek

[ohlarikd]

Ok, after removing the K-Frame / Control Arms, I was able to get the trans out. I don't know for sure if that was necessary, but I couldn't slide the shaft out of the clutch because the differential was hitting the control arm. No room. Maybe its an L-body thing. Either way, it will make things easier to get in, and I can clean it all up better.

Here are some pictures. The flywheel/clutch looks very dry. The inside of the trans bellhousing though looks like oil has been slung everywhere - not sure what is 'normal'. If anyone can take a look at these pics and note anything unusual, that would be helpful. I would think a leaky rear main would cause the flywheel to be oily, but its not. Maybe its just a really leaky trans?

38540
38541
38542
38543
38544
38545
38546
38547

[black86glhs]

Pull the clutch and flywheel. Then take pics.

[ohlarikd]

Pull the clutch and flywheel. Then take pics.

Ok, if pics are inconclusive, then I will do that. I didn't want to do that if it was clearly unnecessary of course.

Thanks!

Derek

[ohlarikd]

As a checklist:

1) Do I need this special clutch disk alignment tool, or is there some replacement in my garage, like a long socket or something?
2) What the heck is a 'Release Bearing and Fork' that the FSM mentions? No picture or description. Do I need to remove it like it says?
3) If rear main is leaking, do I need to get Tool C-4681? Not even sure what it does.

Otherwise,
1) I mark the pieces to get them back into alignment later.
2) Remove Clutch Cover and Pressure Plate Assembly, making sure clutch disc does not fall (with tool)
3) Remove 8 bolts that hold flywheel on, take off flywheel

Is that it?

THANKS, sorry, I am way deeper here than I ever wanted to be, but I'm in it to win it!

Derek

[turbovanman²]

As a checklist:

1) Do I need this special clutch disk alignment tool, or is there some replacement in my garage, like a long socket or something?
2) What the heck is a 'Release Bearing and Fork' that the FSM mentions? No picture or description. Do I need to remove it like it says?
3) If rear main is leaking, do I need to get Tool C-4681? Not even sure what it does.

Otherwise,
1) I mark the pieces to get them back into alignment later.
2) Remove Clutch Cover and Pressure Plate Assembly, making sure clutch disc does not fall (with tool)
3) Remove 8 bolts that hold flywheel on, take off flywheel

Is that it?

THANKS, sorry, I am way deeper here than I ever wanted to be, but I'm in it to win it!

Derek

Oil leak that you say you have doesn't look like it in these pics, looks very dry.

TO bearing is in the first 2 pics, its the part that push's on the pressure plate. Spin it, is it noisey, if so, replace it.

You need an alignment tool or if your good, you can eyeball, I do that often as my alignment tool won't work or it didn't come with one. If you get a stock replacement clutch, it will come with one. I'll bet you will need a new clutch.

Remove the 13mm bolts holding the PP on the flywheel, the disc will slide down so hold that all together, then you can remove the flywheel.

I use a screwdriver to remove the rear main seal and use the old seal and sockets to put new rear main seals in. You might want to get some help installing it, if you mess it up, it will leak.

[ohlarikd]

Ok, here are pics of the Flywheel and crankshaft seal area.
1) The flywheel bolts are oily. There is oil around the bolt holes on the crankshaft end.
2) I don't see any oil from the rear main seal. But there is some oil, I think, from the bottom of the bracket plate AROUND the seal.
3) The clutch and flywheel have a very odd scratched up pattern. Let me know what you think of that.
4) Flywheel seemed dry - dirty, but not freshly oiled (I take that back, looks like oil just spread radially)

Anyway, look at the pics! You know better than I.

3855438555385563855738558

385593856038561

3856238563

[4 l-bodies]

Derek,
There is a 5/8" oil galley plug in the block above the crankshaft. Looks like a mini frost plug. Make sure that is dry. If that is weeping, that could be all of your oil leak. The 8 crank bolts pass thru the crankshaft and are open into the oil pan cavity. Make sure these threads are clean and dry and make sure you install with locktite. That could be your oil leak too ie; oil passing thru threads on crank bolts. Rear main looks like it has been replaced. It looks dry, so I don't think that was your oil leak. I think you previously have told us you have had the pan off, so that seal below the rear main has been replaced by you. That probably isn't it either. As far as the clutch disk, is that a centerforce dual friction? If so, these have been know to slip at your power level. They might have been the cats meow when installed, but there are much better options these days.
BTW, it you took off the extension housing on the tranny (the extension that holds the speedo gear) you can fairly easily pull the tranny without removing the cross member or the lower control arms on a l-body. You can actually remove it without doing this, but it makes it WAY easier. IIRC, one of the the right crossmember bolt/nut is the pivot on these. That one has no adjustment. It is sort of star designed. You need to get that installed first and then the other three mounting points will be adjustable on install. You do know you will need to realign now that you have taken the crossmember out?
Don't forget to look at tranny for oil leaks. I believe your tranny had motor oil installed instead of ATF, so that could be a source of your leak too. I believe those bolts that hold the girdle on and the brearing retainer plate pass thru into the transmission oil sump. Those need to be applied with sealer as well.
Good luck, and call me if you want.
Todd

[ohlarikd]

Derek,
There is a 5/8" oil galley plug in the block above the crankshaft. Looks like a mini frost plug. Make sure that is dry. If that is weeping, that could be all of your oil leak. The 8 crank bolts pass thru the crankshaft and are open into the oil pan cavity. Make sure these threads are clean and dry and make sure you install with locktite. That could be your oil leak too ie; oil passing thru threads on crank bolts. Rear main looks like it has been replaced. It looks dry, so I don't think that was your oil leak. I think you previously have told us you have had the pan off, so that seal below the rear main has been replaced by you. That probably isn't it either. As far as the clutch disk, is that a centerforce dual friction? If so, these have been know to slip at your power level. They might have been the cats meow when installed, but there are much better options these days.
BTW, it you took off the extension housing on the tranny (the extension that holds the speedo gear) you can fairly easily pull the tranny without removing the cross member or the lower control arms on a l-body. You can actually remove it without doing this, but it makes it WAY easier. IIRC, one of the the right crossmember bolt/nut is the pivot on these. That one has no adjustment. It is sort of star designed. You need to get that installed first and then the other three mounting points will be adjustable on install. You do know you will need to realign now that you have taken the crossmember out?
Don't forget to look at tranny for oil leaks. I believe your tranny had motor oil installed instead of ATF, so that could be a source of your leak too. I believe those bolts that hold the girdle on and the brearing retainer plate pass thru into the transmission oil sump. Those need to be applied with sealer as well.
Good luck, and call me if you want.
Todd

Thanks for the reply Todd. While its apart, I am trying to do everything I can to make sure there is no leak, and replace anything that would be prudent. I think the clutch is one of those things - although its working fine at the moment, I don't feel like doing this again anytime soon down the road.

The 5/8" plug looks ok to me, see the attached photo. There is a tiny bit of oil or grease at the bottom of the rear seal, but that may be from the bolts. There is no evidence that I can see that it could possibly be the source for all the oil I see. The threads on the flywheel bolts do not look like they had any kind of loctite on them. They look like fresh metal, except oily. Possibly, oil is leaking here, get flung outward on the back of the flywheel, and is thrown all over the inside bell housing of trans (see the trans picture). So that could be a source.

As for alignment, I didn't realize the crossmember was adjustable. I kept all the tie rods the same, and didn't touch the strut bolts, so I thought I was safe. Well, either way, an alignment is the least of my problems! But I probably would not have done it till you mentioned it.

As far as the BLOCK is concerned - is there anything else to check? So I can leave rear seal alone, or should I try to replace it now? It's $3.80, and looks fairly easy to do - just to be safe? How about the metal bracket that goes around the rear main, does that look ok at the bottom? Looks like crystallized something or other is there. Probably ok. I may reseal the oil pan again - those end caps never did seem to seal right, like the pan was misshapen. Can I RTV the end caps on top of the rubber seal?

The TRANS, that thing is leaking all over I think. I haven't even gotten there yet. My goal is to somehow reseal the whole thing, but I am trying to avoid removing anything internal, since I don't know if I have to the tools or knowledge to get it back right. I need to study it, and get a list of what seals and RTV / Gaskets I can replace externally. The trans has always been the main suspect. I will have to take pictures next week (won't be around this weekend).

38578

[turbovanman²]

I don't see any oil leak from the engine so I'd have to agree with Todd, the input shaft seal on the trans is the culprit.

That flywheel was resurfaced backyarder style, using a roloc type disc. If your clutch wasn't smooth, have it resurfaced properly. Clutch doesn't look too bad but see what a new one costs for shitts and giggles.

Don't replace the rear main, its very easy to mess up and that one looks ok.

I prefer thread sealer on the flywheel bolts but each there own.

The K-member isn't adjustable.

Yes you can RTV the end caps, just wipe the oil off using brake cleaner then RTV.

[RoadWarrior222]

Taint adjustable, but it can sit 1mm off either way, front, back, corner to corner...

[ohlarikd]

I don't see any oil leak from the engine so I'd have to agree with Todd, the input shaft seal on the trans is the culprit.

That flywheel was resurfaced backyarder style, using a roloc type disc. If your clutch wasn't smooth, have it resurfaced properly. Clutch doesn't look too bad but see what a new one costs for shitts and giggles.

Don't replace the rear main, its very easy to mess up and that one looks ok.

I prefer thread sealer on the flywheel bolts but each there own.

The K-member isn't adjustable.

Yes you can RTV the end caps, just wipe the oil off using brake cleaner then RTV.

Thanks for the reply. If I resurface the flywheel, can I use the same clutch? Or will there be some incompatibility there? I remember getting a new brake disc on my motorcycle years ago, but failed to replace the pads as well. Pads gouged the crap out of the new disc since it wasn't perfectly smooth.

Great - if engine looks ok, I will leave it alone and just make sure I use thread sealer / loctite on the bolts. I am considering the clutch, but that is $300+

Trans is next to investigate. Input shaft seal - that would be something I can replace easily? Its the seal for the splined shaft in the middle of the bell housing? I would like to reseal the rear diff cover as well, since it can't really be done in the car.

Derek

[turbovanman²]

Thanks for the reply. If I resurface the flywheel, can I use the same clutch? Or will there be some incompatibility there? I remember getting a new brake disc on my motorcycle years ago, but failed to replace the pads as well. Pads gouged the crap out of the new disc since it wasn't perfectly smooth.

Great - if engine looks ok, I will leave it alone and just make sure I use thread sealer / loctite on the bolts. I am considering the clutch, but that is $300+

Trans is next to investigate. Input shaft seal - that would be something I can replace easily? Its the seal for the splined shaft in the middle of the bell housing? I would like to reseal the rear diff cover as well, since it can't really be done in the car.

Derek

Was your clutch chattering? If no, then leave the clutch and flywheel alone. There is a bit of oil on the disc but that should be fine.

The seal is easily replaced, 3 bolts hold the collar on, then it comes off and the seal is in the retainer. Is the t/o bearing noisey?

[ohlarikd]

Was your clutch chattering? If no, then leave the clutch and flywheel alone. There is a bit of oil on the disc but that should be fine.

The seal is easily replaced, 3 bolts hold the collar on, then it comes off and the seal is in the retainer. Is the t/o bearing noisey?

Clutch had no issues, so I can leave it alone then. Looks like it had a lot of meat on it still. I just didn't like that Roloc grinder surface job, but it seems to work.

I don't know what a throw out bearing noise would be, but I never hear anything unusual there. In fact the whole car runs and sounds great, it just spews forth oil on the tranny side block. Thus, I would like to leave that alone as well.

So replace the tranny input shaft seal. Anything else that is typical on the tranny? It's hard to tell if rear diff cover is leaking at bottom since the oil tends to always be there since its the lowest point. I would like to reseal that to be cautious since the tranny is out. Is that as simple as removing the cover, cleaning it, and re-RTV'ing it?

Derek

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

I have a stock 525. Is this the seal?

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Timken-Transmission-Seal/1987-Dodge-Shelby-Charger/_/N-iijddZ6o216?itemIdentifier=487167_0_0_5126%2C6576

Derek

[ohlarikd]

Is the inside of the bell housing suppose to be this grimy? Or should it be clean? Is this the indication of a shaft seal leak?

38580

[turbovanman²]

That looks like the seal but obviously double check looking up the part.

I would reseal the diff cover, and yes, easy as cleaning and resealing.

Replace the axle seals.

Spin the t/o bearing, should be smooth, not noisey, if noisey, replace it.

Bellhousing is grimy due to the input shaft spewing oil everywhere.

[ohlarikd]

I would reseal the diff cover, and yes, easy as cleaning and resealing.
Replace the axle seals.
Spin the t/o bearing, should be smooth, not noisey, if noisey, replace it.
Bellhousing is grimy due to the input shaft spewing oil everywhere.

Great! Sounds like this is going to be easier than I expected, so far at least.

[4 l-bodies]

Great! Sounds like this is going to be easier than I expected, so far at least.
Derek,
You have that girdle bolted in place that wraps around diff. bearing retainer and diff cover. That will complicate things just a hair more. You will want to re-seal these at the same time so they can be bolted together while RTV is still taking set. Much easier doing with tranny off the vehicle than installed as oil wants to continuously puddle on lower diff cover area.
Yes, I would change that input shaft seal, looks pretty moist in bellhousing area. As far as the clutch is concerned, if it slips it's prety much game over. IMO, the dual fiction disk was decent, but the PP is alsolutely nothing special. No better than a stocker. If you could find a good strong PP, that would add some clamping power insurance.
Todd

[135sohc]

That is the correct seal, atleast by part number anyways. Theres going to be a shim sitting loose behind that seal retainer when you remove it, make sure it goes back in.

[4 l-bodies]

Taint adjustable, but it can sit 1mm off either way, front, back, corner to corner...
Chrysler could have never built the subframes that straight without some adjustability. You guys better look a little closer at subframe mounting points next time your crossmember is out (lol). There is one point that is not adjustable, the other three points you can move around a bit. Next time at salvage yard I'm going to snap photos to school yeah (lol)!:D
Todd

[turbovanman²]

As far as the clutch is concerned, if it slips it's prety much game over. IMO, the dual fiction disk was decent, but the PP is alsolutely nothing special. No better than a stocker. If you could find a good strong PP, that would add some clamping power insurance.
Todd

How are you determining it could be a Center Force? Usually the PP is orange and everyone I've seen has weights on the fingers. This to me, looks like an stock type replacement and based on the resurfaced flywheel, :eyebrows: I'd guess the PO was cheap, lol.


Chrysler could have never built the subframes that straight without some adjustability. You guys better look a little closer at subframe mounting points next time your crossmember is out (lol). There is one point that is not adjustable, the other three points you can move around a bit. Next time at salvage yard I'm going to snap photos to school yeah (lol)!:D
Todd

True on the one side, usually lining that up, it goes back up square, unless of course the car isn't, :faint:

[4 l-bodies]

How are you determining it could be a Center Force? Usually the PP is orange and everyone I've seen has weights on the fingers. This to me, looks like an stock type replacement and based on the resurfaced flywheel, :eyebrows: I'd guess the PO was cheap, lol.

Tell you the truth I never looked at the pics. I'm going by memory, as I was the previous owner (lol)! Before that Tom Piazza. That takes care of the last 20+ years of ownership. Tom applied a centerforce sticker underhood on water trough area. Among other stickers. I peeled them off when I repainted engine bay. That is how I assumed it had a centerforce DF clutch in it. I never had the tranny out of car, so I didn't change it. Dereks car had lots of high dollar nostalgic parts on it from about the early 90's era. Like a snapshot from 1991. FM did lots of work to that car over the years. 525 LSD, Spearco kit, Koni's, shelby floor mats, DC boost gauge, Lemans wheels, tig welded wheel well mods, 4 point seat belts, etc. My point, hardly cheap just the opposite in fact. Derek has a whole shoebox full of receipts for that car going back to about 1990.
Todd

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

Yup after looking at pics, looks like Centerforce clutch died an earlier death and another clutch has been installed. Maybe Derek could find receipts for replacement clutch if he is curious. Derek, if both sides of disk are organic and doesn't have pucks on one side, then it is not a Centerforce DF disk.

[turbovanman²]

Great story, lol. :thumb:

[ohlarikd]

So there is an O-ring on the trans extension that is broken in half. I can't seem to find a replacement. Parts manual has it as:

6500 111 :: O-RING, Trans. Extension

Anyone know where I can get this? Looks like NS1? I guess I can try the dealer.

Took some pics of the Shelby differential, will post later. Thanks!

Derek

[135sohc]

The rtv applied to the extension housing per the fsm direction/picture should be more than enough to seal it up. I say that because my January 94 mfg a523 never had the o-ring on it (the housing wasnt even machined for one). That being said I did get one from the dealer (took forever, bag said ns1) and then went to a local hydraulic fabrication company and had them match up the OE ring to something from their stock, cost me 65 cents.

[ohlarikd]

The Shelby LSD really is in there...

38801

[ohlarikd]

The rtv applied to the extension housing per the fsm direction/picture should be more than enough to seal it up. I say that because my January 94 mfg a523 never had the o-ring on it (the housing wasnt even machined for one). That being said I did get one from the dealer (took forever, bag said ns1) and then went to a local hydraulic fabrication company and had them match up the OE ring to something from their stock, cost me 65 cents.

Ordered the O-Ring, should get it tomorrow. $6! Oh well. The FSM shows the RTV around the base as well as the O-ring, and given all my leaking problems, I will do both. The rear diff cover was not sealed properly either, so that was another potential leak source.

[ohlarikd]

Ok - so the inner axle seal... how does it come out exactly? It is not clear to me. Do I need to remove the bracket and girdle to get access to it? Also, I was pretty sure the part number for the Extension Housing Axle Seal and this Axle Seal were the same, but they don't look the same from this viewpoint.

38828

[turbovanman²]

You don't need the O-ring, never used one and never have leaks plus newer trans don't have them.

Axle seals are the same on both sides. To get that one out your showing, takes some patience with a pry bar, screwdriver and hammer.

[ohlarikd]

You don't need the O-ring, never used one and never have leaks plus newer trans don't have them.

Axle seals are the same on both sides. To get that one out your showing, takes some patience with a pry bar, screwdriver and hammer.

Ok - so I don't need to take all those brackets and housings off... well, I will try to pry it out, can't hurt I guess. I just don't see the lip on the seal like I do on the extension housing. Odd.

Does the part that says 'MEXICO' part of the seal?

[135sohc]

Does the part that says 'MEXICO' part of the seal?

Yes.`

[4 l-bodies]

The Shelby LSD really is in there...

38801
One left turn under power and you should have been able to figure that out (lol).

[4 l-bodies]

Ok - so the inner axle seal... how does it come out exactly? It is not clear to me. Do I need to remove the bracket and girdle to get access to it? Also, I was pretty sure the part number for the Extension Housing Axle Seal and this Axle Seal were the same, but they don't look the same from this viewpoint.

38828

Derek,
Be aware that some of those bolts on the diff. plate retainer penetrate the oil sump. Like I said before, those could be leaking too. Since you have the tranny on the bench, If it were me, I would remove the girdle, the diff retainer, and reseal everything. BTW, how did you get the diff cover off without removing the girdle? The axle seal is a snap to remove if you take the retainer out. It's easy to goober up where the OD of the seal is if just using a pry bar, large screwdriver, slide hammer, etc. I just had to repair this on my NY'er because of gouge in this area from previous hack axle repair job.
Todd
Todd

[ohlarikd]

Derek,
Be aware that some of those bolts on the diff. plate retainer penetrate the oil sump. Like I said before, those could be leaking too. Since you have the tranny on the bench, If it were me, I would remove the girdle, the diff retainer, and reseal everything. BTW, how did you get the diff cover off without removing the girdle? The axle seal is a snap to remove if you take the retainer out. It's easy to goober up where the OD of the seal is if just using a pry bar, large screwdriver, slide hammer, etc. I just had to repair this on my NY'er because of gouge in this area from previous hack axle repair job.
Todd
Todd

Well, I DID remove that girdle and redid the rear cover... BEFORE I realized that the seal wouldn't be easy to remove. I am going to start over and remove it all again to pop out the seal and reseal this retainer. Not the first time I've done something out of order and multiple times. Arrrrrggg....

[ohlarikd]

DONE. Resealed everything. Re-Removed everything, put in seal, re-RTV'd. If this thing leaks, then I guess it just wasn't meant to be. Flywheel, clutch aligned, pressure plate on. I guess all that is left is to heave this thing back on. Of course, this whole weekend is shot due to 3 kid's birthday parties....

[ohlarikd]

Trans is back in the car. First, I did not heed the suggestions to use the headless bolts as guides, it seemed like it would be no problem. Well, after an hour of frustration, I went and bought the M12x1.75 bolts from the hardware store. After cutting off the heads and screwing them firmly in place, it took maybe 5 minutes to jack it up into place and slip it on, easy. Definitely a no-brainer next time. So now I will re-reseal the oil pan just in case and put it all back together and hope for the best.

[ohlarikd]

Well, everything is back together, filled the trans, so far, just sitting static, no leaks. Haven't started it yet. Why? Cause I have no luck. The old radiator had a small leak, so I just replaced it. Put everything back together, fan, intercooler, etc. Fill it up, and the brass fittings for the heater hose and drain are leaking like crazy. 2 more gallons of antifreeze wasted. Gotta get some free ones from Autozone, where I got the radiator. Pull radiator, fix those fittings... blah blah.

Always a battle.

[4 l-bodies]

Derek,
That is so strange that the radiator would have a leak as it was replaced just prior to me purchasing the car. You might want to see if the radiator just has a small pinhole leak that can be repaired. That radiator can't have 15k miles on it. probably under 10K. That way you could use it as a spare if it can be repaired easily.
If you want a good laugh check out what the the previous owner was charged for the repair. The guys wife brought the car in for the repair and they really took advantage of that. I was absolutely shocked by the invoice!
IIRC, at the same time they installed the cat converter. That one failed in like 2K miles even before you bought the car.
We will keep our fingers crossed that it's all sealed up now.

[ohlarikd]

Truth be told, I was planning on investigating further where the leak was coming from, but I jammed the transmission upper metal shield through it. End of investigation.

[DevoBuzz]

Truth be told, I was planning on investigating further where the leak was coming from, but I jammed the transmission upper metal shield through it. End of investigation.
I would like to take some credit for that mishap too! You can't steal all the glory - lol.

[ohlarikd]

I would like to take some credit for that mishap too! You can't steal all the glory - lol.

True, it was your suggestion to try and wedge the metal shield behind the flywheel, at which point I slipped and jammed it into the radiator, and doused myself with coolant. We ended up removing the clutch and flywheel again to get the forgotten shield in place. Remember - I do everything TWICE.

So I installed the radiator for the SECOND time of course, no leaks. One fitting was only hand tight from the factory, and the other two were tight but made of plastic and leaking. Replaced them all with brass and sealed them with teflon. Looks good overnight, no leaks.

Today, just need to tighten axle nuts, put on wheels, and fill with engine oil, then give it a try. Still no leaks from trans after two days, but we will see when its running and sloshing around in there.

[ohlarikd]

Finished the car last night, drove it for maybe 15 minutes, and came back. This morning - NO LEAKS! By now it would have oil all over the lower trans and differential. But nothing! What a relief.

Also - the car drives great, differential is quiet, shifts great in all 5 gears and reverse, clutch works great. So happy. It was a lot of work, but worth it now for sure.

Thanks for all the help on this thread!

[135sohc]

Every once in a while the mopar gods will cut you a break. Good to hear you got yours finally.
my van had a chronic oil leak from the rear main area for as long as I can remember. I spent untold hours under that pig replacing the rear main seal several times over. Finally the last time I had enough and threatened to take a gas can and road flare to it... Stupid sob stopped leaking the next day, bone dry underneath since then :confused: (it stopped leaking totally by itself no lie or bs)

[RoadWarrior222]

Yah, sometimes they just need to be told

http://cdn.stripersonline.com/e/ee/ee4e84be_pimp-hand1.gif

[turbovanman²]

That's awesome, glad you got her all fixed up, :nod:

[ohlarikd]

Thanks guys! It's a fine running machine now... it's nice not to have to think about anything and just drive it. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do this. I had tried all the 'quick fixes' hoping it would magically solve the leaks, but no... It was most likely the input shaft seal, and also the extension housing RTV seal was terrible and the O-ring broken (if that was even needed).

I can smile when I look at the car now, instead of just being stressed.

[ohlarikd]

Every once in a while the mopar gods will cut you a break.

The Mopar God's have smote me down. Although the leaks are 90% gone, after a few days, I see that there is still one small drip coming off the differential. It is very minor, but a drip none the less.

I was really trying to make this car perfect, so now I would say it is very very close to perfect. For the next owner. It's for sale. I am moving in another direction in the automobile world....

Derek

[RoadWarrior222]

I'd give it some running around before you despair, prolly the axle seals got a bit dry, they'll plump up.

[ohlarikd]

I'd give it some running around before you despair, prolly the axle seals got a bit dry, they'll plump up.

Well, axle seal was my first thought, since it it appears to be right under the driver side seal. Hard to tell because of all the brackets there, and like 8 bolts. Seems to run inside the bracket and then onto the bottom if diff. So I am thinking axle seal as well. Are you saying there is a chance that it can actually seal better over time?

Derek

[RoadWarrior222]

Yes, can happen, they are designed to work with the seal conditioners in fresh ATF... will either go away in a couple of weeks... or will be the same, if the same, then seals might be done... I usually give mine a head start when I have the axles out by putting straight Lucas Transmission Fix around the axle and on the seal.... only had mine leaking enough to notice when I've had the tranny empty a while, or when I've let the ATF get more than a couple of years old.

[ohlarikd]

Yes, can happen, they are designed to work with the seal conditioners in fresh ATF... will either go away in a couple of weeks... or will be the same, if the same, then seals might be done... I usually give mine a head start when I have the axles out by putting straight Lucas Transmission Fix around the axle and on the seal.... only had mine leaking enough to notice when I've had the tranny empty a while, or when I've let the ATF get more than a couple of years old.

Well, there is no ATF here, its the recommended straight 5W30 engine oil. Is there some recommended procedure for new seals on a manual car? The 5W30 by the way is for the Shelby LSD, that is what it uses.

If there was solid evidence that I could pull the axle and somehow retreat the new seal, I might give that a whirl, despite my best judgement to leave the thing alone! Pulling the axle is something that doesn't require me to remove the trans, so it has possibility. Plus the procedure is still fresh in my mind.

[RoadWarrior222]

Ahh that's a toughie then, some motor oils seem to have very good seal conditioners in, some don't seem to have any. I can tell you that castrol and pennzoil seem to be good and mobil makes my 3.0 leak like a sieve... don't think valvoline was too clever either...

[black86glhs]

For future reference. I put some bearing grease on the seals before putting the axles back in on old seals. I also do it on new ones.

[4 l-bodies]

For future reference. I put some bearing grease on the seals before putting the axles back in on old seals. I also do it on new ones.
+1. The older Mopar seals came this way as well. FWIW Derek I just replaced an axle seal on my NY'er. Happens to all of us that drive 20+ year old vehicles. Mine actually appeared to be leaking on the OD diameter of the seal due to someone prior to me attacking it with a slide hammer, seal puller, screwdriver, etc. Boogering up the diff retaining hub. Did you use any anerobic sealant on the OD of seal? Might have same issue as I did.
Todd

[4 l-bodies]

Just saw ad on eBay. Both car and ad look great! GLWS. Couple of awfully nice SD's on Ebay at the moment!
Todd

[ohlarikd]

All of you are evil. Yes the car is for sale, but not because of the leak. I really am going to get something else, and if I pull it off, I will post it here for sure! It is a Mopar after all.

But you are evil cause my car is already back on jack stands. I really want to give this one more try. The input shaft / rear main seal area, and the extension housing are all dry as a bone - GREAT! That was a huge leak over there. Now it is just one leak around this driver-side axle. I will post some pictures a bit later....

[ohlarikd]

The bolt you see here is where the oil is dripping from. I put some paper towel in there to see if the oil is coming from above, from the axle. In the morning, I'll see if it's oily which should give me a clue.

39292

[ohlarikd]

Just to get a head start in my thinking... I can do this with the trans in the car, which is why I might give it a try:

1) To replace the axle seal, I can remove the girdle/bracket thing that covers the retaining hub and rear cover, then remove the retaining hub. This should not affect the rear diff cover seal hopefully.
2) I will get a new seal, use aenerobic sealant on it just in case.
3) There is an 'oil feed baffle' behind the retaining hub - can that cause a leak, and should it be replaced? Not sure if that is doable with the trans in the car.
4) Put axle grease on the new seal, then reinstall the axle.

I think that is that last attempt here. Does this sound like a plan? Please fill in any blanks if you can, I wish I had asked these questions the first time.

Thanks!

[ohlarikd]

Of course its not leaking today. I put it back down off the jackstand to see if it will make a difference overnight. If not, then I will have to drive a little bit and see if that causes a leak. It is really minor, but still... after all that work...

[ohlarikd]

Took everything apart, and its clear the seal was leaking from the outer edge of the seal, not the inside. Todd was right, it's not the seal, its the metal flange that the seal goes into. It is all marred up with a screwdriver. Wasn't me! I knocked out the seal from behind, hitting the seal itself, not near the edge. Going to use the anaerobic sealant like Todd suggests.

39528 39529

[ohlarikd]

Although the Timken seal worked, there is a clear difference between the Timken from Autozone, and the Mopar seal. Same Price!

39530 39531

[ohlarikd]

Crappy pic, but you can kind of see the oil leaking around the perimeter of the old seal and dripping down. I had drained the trans before I pulled out the axle, so its not from that.

39546