Megashift for A604

[moparman76_69]

Anybody have any experience with this? Does it require a megasquirt to operate or is it a standalone setup? I'm thinking of running an a604 from a pt turbo in the van and need a way to control the shifts.

[bakes]

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/41te/41te_wiring.html

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/41te/41tebuild.html

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/shift.html

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/shift.html

[moparman76_69]

Cool, I had read the first two but the last one answered my questions for the most part. Might be worth it to pick up the trans now. Does the solenoid pack have to go with the trans or can I use a similar one? Someone had taken the pack off already.

[bakes]

The later packs were better

[moparman76_69]

I can grab a pack off a N/A PT and bolt it on the Trans before I buy it. Guess I need to read up on modifications for autos.

[Big_P]

You're going to adapt it to your 4cyl?

[RoadWarrior222]

Whoa, that's a whole lot more info than has been floating around on the recent A604 threads.

I was skeptical of megashift handling the A604 because all the apps I was hearing about where the GM and Ford "electronified" hydraulic trans which cope with bang-bang shifting. But that looks like it will attempt to handle shifts the way the A604 likes.... as far as it likes shifting at all of course :D ...

Well let's hope if we throw out the NVH and "shift quality" encumbrances, that you can get the thing reliable with it, even if it lets out an impressive graAAArrrrk at stop signs and buzzes like a robot farting at partial lockup.... I could live with that, I actually like feeling shifts, and not worrying about how sh!t is grinding away when they are "imperceptible"

[moparman76_69]

You're going to adapt it to your 4cyl?

I guess I should have rephrase that. I'd be using a 41TE from a pt cruiser.

I guess its a trade off. If I run the 5 speed then I need to modify the AWD to fit it, but I shouldn't have to worry about the trans itself. If I run the 41te then the AWD bolts up with little effort but I'd need to buy, assemble, and program the controller. Plus I'd have to beef up the trans to handle the power I'm hoping to make.

[ShelGame]

I guess I should have rephrase that. I'd be using a 41TE from a pt cruiser.

I guess its a trade off. If I run the 5 speed then I need to modify the AWD to fit it, but I shouldn't have to worry about the trans itself. If I run the 41te then the AWD bolts up with little effort but I'd need to buy, assemble, and program the controller. Plus I'd have to beef up the trans to handle the power I'm hoping to make.

It's still on my list of things to do to tear into the TCM. Though, I would start with the early ones as I'm pretty sure they'll take one of my flash modules. I need to get a ~'89 TCM and open it up. I didn't have much luck with the '94 I was working on...

I doubt I could have anything for you before SDAC, unfortunately.

[turbovanman²]

We've got threads out the wazzo for this, I think we came up with it won't work with this trans due to the way it shifts. I'll dig up the threads.

[moparman76_69]

It's still on my list of things to do to tear into the TCM. Though, I would start with the early ones as I'm pretty sure they'll take one of my flash modules. I need to get a ~'89 TCM and open it up. I didn't have much luck with the '94 I was working on...

I doubt I could have anything for you before SDAC, unfortunately.

I guess the question would be if it was possible to use an older controller on a new-ish trans. If you could use the 89 TCM with maybe a 95-ish stratus trans that might work.


We've got threads out the wazzo for this, I think we came up with it won't work with this trans due to the way it shifts. I'll dig up the threads.

I don't remember any threads at least recently that directly tackle the question of using the megashift to control the 604 or the 41te. I guess the question is are people assuming it won't work due to the way it shifts or has it been verified.

[zin]

AFAIK, the 07 TCM from a PT GT/turbo will work, is a stand-alone controller and has the "stick" option. It's what I have planned when/if I go 4-speed auto...

Mike

[moparman76_69]

Well apparently it is a done deal that Mshift will work.

<br>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL6v1h6jog

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------


AFAIK, the 07 TCM from a PT GT/turbo will work, is a stand-alone controller and has the "stick" option. It's what I have planned when/if I go 4-speed auto...

Mike

So I'm assuming the PT I was looking at was a pre-whatever trans since I didn't notice the auto stick option. Found out some guys that came over when we were pulling the engine ended up taking the trans after we left it on the ground so I'll have to dig up what is different between the n/a and turbo transmissions.

[zin]

I don't know if there is much, if any difference in the trans itself, but the controller was different. Pretty much just the programing/shift points, etc and the autostick option. You'd need the wiring harness to go with it as well as making a splice between the SBEC and the TCM for stuff like RPM, etc... not really a big deal (says the guy who hasn't done it yet...).

Mike

[moparman76_69]

So no N/A, it'd have to be a gt? That might prove difficult. A lot of PTs are showing up in yards but they are all crunched and the one I found was the only GT I've seen. I can try and get over there and see what year it was. I'd like a "factory" solution if possible.

Maybe a thread rename is in order.

[Reaper1]

Neat to see a 604 being controlled via an aftermarket controller! :thumb:

[moparman76_69]

So I found out most later model PTs came with a 40te instead of the 41te. I think Mike is right by saying N/a vs Turbo nothing changed. I'm wondering if the 89 uses a separate TCM or if it is tied into the other systems? A factory option in my opinion would work better.

[ShelGame]

So I found out most later model PTs came with a 40te instead of the 41te. I think Mike is right by saying N/a vs Turbo nothing changed. I'm wondering if the 89 uses a separate TCM or if it is tied into the other systems? A factory option in my opinion would work better.

'89 TCM is separate, but it still needs the CCD bus data. The SMEC does have the CCD bus chip, and the V6 code has the coms routine. It would be no big deal to add that code to a T-SMEC cal. If you can add the wires, I bet we could make it work. Reprogramming the TCM is what I am not ready to do yet...

[moparman76_69]

So addt'l wiring from the smec 60way to the TCM? I guess the next question would be if the trans would hold up using the factory shift program and then what would be required to use the 89 computer to run a later transmission.

[ShelGame]

So addt'l wiring from the smec 60way to the TCM? I guess the next question would be if the trans would hold up using the factory shift program and then what would be required to use the 89 computer to run a later transmission.

You'd have to add like 2 wires to the 60-way, but you'd need the entire TCM section of the harness from a V6 minivan. I can't answer the last 2 questions...

[moparman76_69]

Well then I'll let you know if I find the harness and TCM and go from there. I'll start looking into year model changes also. Rare deals can always be seen on the Kroger Weekly Ad (https://www.weeklyads2.com/kroger/).

[Reaper1]

From what I remember reading in the 41TE/AE FSM, the TCM doesn't NEED the CCD bus to work. The TCM only reads a few of the engine parameters and does its own thing. The 3.8L is the only driveline where the TCM interacted with the SBEC. In that configuration it requests retarded timing during shifts to reduce torque for transmission longevity reasons. None of the other configurations do that (at least in longitudinal FWD/AWD configuration).

Of course this was over 10 years ago that I read the book and the later versions of the TCM could in fact use the CCD bus. The book I read was from 1990.

[moparman76_69]

I know the megashift needs TPS and MAP so I'm assuming that the factory TCM gets that info over the CCD bus instead of a direct read from the sensor. I'll go junkyard hopping this weekend and see if I can find a 89 TCM and a later trans to see if the 89 solenoid pack bolts to a later trans, or if the later pack has the same connector as the 89 harness.

[Reaper1]

I know my '91 with the stand alone just has the signal wires from each of those sensors tapped and they go straight to the TCM. That car doesn't even have a SBEC in it anymore!

[GLHNSLHT2]

subscribed. Have a PT Turbo Auto drivetrain sitting on the floor of my shop waiting to go in my New Yorker one day.

[Ondonti]

I know my '91 with the stand alone just has the signal wires from each of those sensors tapped and they go straight to the TCM. That car doesn't even have a SBEC in it anymore!
The way it should be :) Standalone systems make me much happier when it comes to simplicity and troubleshooting and install aesthetics.

[moparman76_69]

I know my '91 with the stand alone just has the signal wires from each of those sensors tapped and they go straight to the TCM. That car doesn't even have a SBEC in it anymore!

So at least in 91 the TCM read directly from the sensors? I can't see them using the bus in 89 then going to a direct read in 91 so it has to be the same. Any idea what year they relased the TCM with flashable programming?

[RoadWarrior222]

Maybe they found the bus had too much latency in practice?

[ShelGame]

In the early A604, the TPS signal was split and the TCM got it's own signal. But, I'm pretty sure the TCM needs the engine RPM and load condition sent from the ECU to properly figure it's shift points, lock-up, etc.

For light reading - http://www.google.com/patents?id=LJIsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false

[moparman76_69]

From what I have read the TCM gets TPS, MAP, and crank sensor readings from the sensors directly. Now on the 89-94 cars I'm not sure where the rpm signal comes from but on the later cars it seems it takes a reading off the crank sensor on the 2.4 which would be do-able for me. The issue seems to be getting a controller off a SBEC car since the later cars use different signals.

So page 102 of the patent outlines that the controller sees engine speed (crank sensor), turbine speed (trans input sensor), output speed (trans output sensor), throttle angle (TPS), brake application (brake switch), the driver selected gear (shift lever position), and engine coolant temperature (coolant temp sensor).

I guess the question is which signals it gets directly and which it needs the smec to translate or pass along or whatever over the bus.

[Ondonti]

Seems like something as simple as looking at the wiring diagrams, which seem to enjoy being slightly incorrect.

[moparman76_69]

Yeah I need to figure out what years/models have a SBEC based PCM and autostick and dig up the FSM for it.

[moparman76_69]

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu62/moparman76_69/Van%20project/4%20speed%20trans/Electrical.jpg

So it does use the bus to transmit data but I'm unsure of the necessity of that info. I was looking at a 92 FSM and it mentions that previous year controllers won't interchange with 92 year model vehicles so it must be a change over year. I'm looking for a FSM that covers autostick to see if it is doable.

[SebringLX]

Looks like you already found the video of the guy I was thinking of... I know he's on neons.org, has an Omni that he put a 41TE in and controls it with a Megashift.

PCS used to have a controller with a plug and play harness available that would work with the 41TE. Not sure if they still do, I don't think they ever advertised it, but you could get it if you asked for it.

[ShelGame]

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu62/moparman76_69/Van%20project/4%20speed%20trans/Electrical.jpg

So it does use the bus to transmit data but I'm unsure of the necessity of that info. I was looking at a 92 FSM and it mentions that previous year controllers won't interchange with 92 year model vehicles so it must be a change over year. I'm looking for a FSM that covers autostick to see if it is doable.

I think the issue there is that they changed the CCD bus spec in '92. The same issue comes up for body computers. 91/92 Daytona BC's are specific to the year.

[moparman76_69]

So is the SMEC or pre 92 SBEC not capable of talking to the newer TCM? I was really hoping to use a 97 stratus autostick TCM.

[RoadWarrior222]

Welllll, there WAS a mexican turbo 2.4 with autostick, if you could get the 'pooters and harness out of one of them, you could run a PT-GT drivetrain (Or nSRT-4)

[moparman76_69]

Welllll, there WAS a mexican turbo 2.4 with autostick, if you could get the 'pooters and harness out of one of them, you could run a PT-GT drivetrain (Or nSRT-4)

I don't want to chance getting kidnapped/killed by a drug cartel going to a mexican junkyard.

[SebringLX]

I don't want to chance getting kidnapped/killed by a drug cartel going to a mexican junkyard.

You don't need a Mexican one... all the 2G Stratus/Sebring Sedans could use autostick, even though the option was available only with the 2.7L V6. I got the shift assembly and cluster from a 2.7L w/ auto stick, and hooked it up in my 2.4L, did it way before I went turbo. Still works great to this day.

[RoadWarrior222]

I don't want to chance getting kidnapped/killed by a drug cartel going to a mexican junkyard.Write up all the possible scenarios and we'll pitch it to Fox as a new reality show "Junkyard Extreme..."

[ShelGame]

So is the SMEC or pre 92 SBEC not capable of talking to the newer TCM? I was really hoping to use a 97 stratus autostick TCM.

I don't think so. Though, the electrical portion is the same, it's just the data and format that changed. I have the '92+ stuff dis-assembled. So, theoretially, we could pate the 'new' CCD bus code into the SMEC replacing the gen1 CCD bus code.

Also, didn't the Mexican T2 cars have an A604 option? I thought they did. If so, then the CCD bus code from the '92 ECU's should run the later controller.

One other issue with the later A604's. At some point I think (this is from memory) they deleted the turbine input speed sensor and just used the engine RPM signal from the CCD bus. I want to say that was like '95? When I was looking into this, I came to the conclusion that the best trans to use was from a '95 (1 year only) Stratus 2.4. It used the 'older' style valve body, but had an autostick option and a flashable TCM. But, that's just by memory. I could be wayyy off there...

[SebringLX]

So is the SMEC or pre 92 SBEC not capable of talking to the newer TCM? I was really hoping to use a 97 stratus autostick TCM.

Missed this one... should have said that may be possible... again, on the 1G Cloud Cars, plenty of people swapped the autostick function into cars with engine combos it was not available on.

[moparman76_69]

I've heard guys on the intrepid forums saying it's been swapped back as far as 93. I haven't read anything about them deleting the input shaft sensor but the intrepid forums are saying that using the newer TCM with the older trans and PCM setup isn't an issue. The only other way I can see to remove the smec part of my harness and put in a 92 T1 SBEC engine control portion to get the newer bus. But then I'd have to find a 92 T1 car.

Would it be easier to get a 90 harness and then splice in the 92 up bus code into a 90 SBEC?

[Vigo]

I also remember that factoid from my time on dodgeintrepid.net.. The obd2-era tcms were swapped into 93s (first year of LH) and worked.

In fact, i still have the autostick TCM that was in my (autostick-converted, column shift) old intrepid (606) and im planning to use it on my 93 3.3 dynasty (604) when i ever get around to it. I remember that the pinout also changed sometime in that year range.

When i still had my Intrepid i was looking into getting my 97 autostick intrepid tcm flashed to the 97 prowler tcm (same trans) because it didnt have forced 3-4 upshift. I always hated that my intrepid would shift 3-4 1000 rpm early and the prowler was the only autostick car i could find that didnt have that function. I wanted to take my 3rd to redline (~135) and use the best part of the 3.5 powerband, but i never was able to. I did burn up my 4th gear running slightly over 130mph for a few miles though. grumble grumble..

[moparman76_69]

I also remember that factoid from my time on dodgeintrepid.net.. The obd2-era tcms were swapped into 93s (first year of LH) and worked.

In fact, i still have the autostick TCM that was in my (autostick-converted, column shift) old intrepid (606) and im planning to use it on my 93 3.3 dynasty (604) when i ever get around to it. I remember that the pinout also changed sometime in that year range.

When i still had my Intrepid i was looking into getting my 97 autostick intrepid tcm flashed to the 97 prowler tcm (same trans) because it didnt have forced 3-4 upshift. I always hated that my intrepid would shift 3-4 1000 rpm early and the prowler was the only autostick car i could find that didnt have that function. I wanted to take my 3rd to redline (~135) and use the best part of the 3.5 powerband, but i never was able to. I did burn up my 4th gear running slightly over 130mph for a few miles though. grumble grumble..

Yeah I think eventually I'd want the prowler TCM I think it has the highest shift points along with the no forced 4th feature. How hard is it to find someone to flash the Prowler code to a different PCM?

[Ondonti]

Not so exciting now with the bus seeming to dominate conversation :( Not sure the PCM would be able to send anything if it has no actual control.

[ShelGame]

Would it be easier to get a 90 harness and then splice in the 92 up bus code into a 90 SBEC?

I don't think swapping in the later code is too tough, but I admit I haven't checked it out. There might be hitch or two due to differences in the I/O ports. But, I'm sure that could be rectified if it's actually a problem.

[turbovanman²]

You'd have to add like 2 wires to the 60-way, but you'd need the entire TCM section of the harness from a V6 minivan. I can't answer the last 2 questions...

Every time I hit the local PAP, I grab a few, I think I have 4 harness's that come from the TCM and trans, :nod:

[moparman76_69]

I may need one of those if I can't find an 89 with the 4 speed. I wonder if it would be possible to add an autostick with no forced shift feature into the 89 TCM if/when it is disassembled.

[zin]

I may need one of those if I can't find an 89 with the 4 speed. I wonder if it would be possible to add an autostick with no forced shift feature into the 89 TCM if/when it is disassembled.

I imagine (and hope) that just about anything could be changed... The trick will be to only change the parts that help! It'll be nice to adjust the line pressure without getting covered in trans fluid or having a spot on the drive.

I'd bet we could even do a trans-break, just have to engage two elements at once then release one... No add-on solenoid needed!

Being an electronically controlled trans, I have to think a paddle shifter would be fairly easy too! Some of the newer cars have the buttons in the wheel already, though they are for the cruise and radio, a splice here and there and now they are shift controls!

Lots of cool stuff could happen...

Mike

[moparman76_69]

So I plan on grabbing what I need to use a factory controller, but also posted on the megasquirt forum for info on using that controller.

[moparman76_69]

Every time I hit the local PAP, I grab a few, I think I have 4 harness's that come from the TCM and trans, :nod:

I may need you to send me the harness section. I can't locate any 604 vans locally.

Still looking for the trans, supposedly the later ones are better for all the upgrades but all the PTs and the '02 2.4 van I found all have the drivetrain missing. I did pick up a 99 autostick TCM from an intrepid.

[Vigo]

I can't locate any 604 vans locally

wut.

One of the most common vehicles on the continent?

[moparman76_69]

wut.

One of the most common vehicles on the continent?

Yeah well I only found one first gen van and it was a 3.0/3 speed. The only 2nd gen I found that was older than a 94 was a 92 that was a 2.5/5 speed. All the pull a part yards seem to be getting newer vehicles.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah well I only found one first gen van and it was a 3.0/3 speed. See, you were lucky, buy it :D

[moparman76_69]

See, you were lucky, buy it :D

Hard to buy it out of the junkyard and the 3 speed doesn't do me any good.

[RoadWarrior222]

You just don't know yet that you want a twin turbo 3.0 3spd AWD van... :D

[Ondonti]

wut.

One of the most common vehicles on the continent?
But he managed to find a super rare 5 speed instead...

[moparman76_69]

But he managed to find a super rare 5 speed instead...

Yep and they'd have dozens of the auto vans if I was looking for a 5 speed.

Anyone know the difference between a intrepid autostick TCM and a stratus/sebring autostick TCM? I read the stratus had a higher RPM forced upshift when in autostick mode, but can't confirm.

[RoadWarrior222]

May depend on motor.

[ShelGame]

I may need you to send me the harness section. I can't locate any 604 vans locally.

Still looking for the trans, supposedly the later ones are better for all the upgrades but all the PTs and the '02 2.4 van I found all have the drivetrain missing. I did pick up a 99 autostick TCM from an intrepid.

Here's the harness from a '93 van. I assume it's an A604 van since it has 2 60-way connectors and one of them doesn't look nearly fully populated (which would be the trans connector). Not cheap, but it's out there...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIRING-HARNESS-UNDER-HOOD-CPU-TO-ENG-1993-DODGE-CARAVAN-/150610641812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_100&hash=item2311180394&vxp=mtr

[turbovanman²]

I may need you to send me the harness section. I can't locate any 604 vans locally.

Still looking for the trans, supposedly the later ones are better for all the upgrades but all the PTs and the '02 2.4 van I found all have the drivetrain missing. I did pick up a 99 autostick TCM from an intrepid.

Sure, LMK.