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View Full Version : To hone or not to hone....



altered7151
01-03-2006, 02:09 PM
I know this arguement has been brought up before, but figured I'd bring the info over here. Seems people have different opinions on what to do on a re-ring. Some say they've had troubles getting rings to seat if re-honed, especially with moly rings. Others have stated they re-ringed with no honing and had no sealing problems. Would like to hear success/failure stories and what was done, rings used, honed or not, type of hone, with torque plate or without.

BadAssPerformance
01-03-2006, 02:53 PM
Moly rings just take longer to seat period... heard up to 2k miles before.

mo' parts
01-03-2006, 03:00 PM
i had replaced a piston with no hone, and used a set of used piston/rings from another motor(they had about 1500 miles on them) and had no sealing problems. had 145 psi on it at startup, put a good 15-1600 miles on it that way before the oil pump took a dump:(

the last motor i built was bored/honed at the machine shop, using a torque plate, installed a set of wiseco w/moly rings and pulled 150psi on all 4 before inital startup.

i also had a set of moly rings/venoilas on my first motor (fresh bore/hone, no torque plate)take about 200 miles to seat, was 115-120 and eventually came up to 145.
both of those motors are still running quite well to this day:)

Tony Hanna
01-03-2006, 03:05 PM
FWIW, I have never replaced a set of rings without running a hone through the cylinders. According to all the information I've read on the subject, a fresh crosshatch is necessary for the new rings to seat in properly.
The last engine I did, I used Federal Mogal moly rings in combination with a re-hone with a 3 stone hone w/coarse stones. I then followed the break-in guidelines here (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm). I had no problems with smoking or excessive blow-by. I did a compression test after break-in, but it's been long enough ago that I've forgotten the results. I do remember that the balance between cylinders was really even.
HTH,

altered7151
01-03-2006, 03:24 PM
Well I'm leaning towards a hone without a torque plate (since no-one withing a 300 mile radius has one), and moly rings. I've always used moly rings in race car engines where the motor was assembled, warmed up, then made at least a half track pass, so it was ran hard off the trailer. Never had problems with them seating, so the link tonyz2897 posted makes alot of sense. I know the cast rings seat quicker, but are more brittle.

Tony Hanna
01-03-2006, 03:40 PM
FWIW, I think a torque plate is more of an issue for doing an overbore than just a hone. I think the idea is to simulate any stress/deformation that would occur with the head bolted on. I could see the benefit of this when doing an oversize bore, but I'd think the effect of a hone with a torque plate vs. one without would be minimal since the idea of the hone is just to finish the cylinder so the rings seat properly and not to remove alot of material.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

altered7151
01-03-2006, 03:55 PM
FWIW, I think a torque plate is more of an issue for doing an overbore than just a hone. I think the idea is to simulate any stress/deformation that would occur with the head bolted on. I could see the benefit of this when doing an oversize bore, but I'd think the effect of a hone with a torque plate vs. one without would be minimal since the idea of the hone is just to finish the cylinder so the rings seat properly and not to remove alot of material.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that a torque plate on a hone job would really only make a difference if you are trying to squeeze every last possible drop of power out of the motor. I'm not really going all out, just a good strong street motor, so it wouldnt' be an issue I would think.

87csx2.4
01-03-2006, 05:13 PM
Ive always just ran a ball hone 8 to 10 times followed with a super finish hone 3 to 4 runs which makes the rings seat instantly.But just a ball hone works great.Ive never had a ring seating problem,provided the bore is fairly straight.

altered7151
01-03-2006, 06:00 PM
Ive always just ran a ball hone 8 to 10 times followed with a super finish hone 3 to 4 runs which makes the rings seat instantly.But just a ball hone works great.Ive never had a ring seating problem,provided the bore is fairly straight.

What rings did you use, moly or cast?

MiniMopar
01-04-2006, 02:01 AM
IMO, you should always hone for new rings and try to get a close-to-stock cross hatch if you can. If the bores are oval, no amount of honing or not honing will get them to seat.

GLHS0658
01-04-2006, 02:05 AM
FWIW, I think a torque plate is more of an issue for doing an overbore than just a hone. I think the idea is to simulate any stress/deformation that would occur with the head bolted on. I could see the benefit of this when doing an oversize bore, but I'd think the effect of a hone with a torque plate vs. one without would be minimal since the idea of the hone is just to finish the cylinder so the rings seat properly and not to remove alot of material.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. Do NOT use a torque plate if you are saying with the stock bore. A torque plate is installed in the final honing process. Usually the block is bored first then finish honed (2 different machines). The torque plate is installed with the last .003-.005 to go. The finishing stone (grit) is matched to whatever rings you use. Cast rings would use a courser grit than Chrome moly rings.

If you are staying with your current bore size, I would use a ball hone. They are also available in different grits/finishes.

Mike

87csx2.4
01-04-2006, 02:24 AM
What rings did you use, moly or cast?Ive used both they both seem to work equally well.

turbovanmanČ
01-04-2006, 03:44 AM
I know Ken and others have never honed and never had an issue. I have also read in a few speed mags, IE Hot Rod, Car Craft that some manufacterers are leaning towards no hone. I haven't had the balls to try it yet.

I only use ball hones now if doing an in car rering. Got bit once using the 3 bar/finger type, cast rings never seated and had to redo it. Never had a ball hone job never seat, even with moly rings.

My current engine, torque plate, Total Seal rings, broken in like I stole it, 1-2%leakdown and 150 cranking. I might check it again this weekend, I have put 5000 hard KM's on it since I last checked it, and that was at 1000 km's. I was having oil blown out of my crankcase vent so TS told me to limit the size of my vent-I did that and then realized my PCV was leaking boost. So now, its been good for a week or so and no oil in the pcv line.

GLHSKEN
01-04-2006, 07:53 AM
Moly rings just take longer to seat period... heard up to 2k miles before.


When replacing a piston or 2, I never hone... If I can see the factory cross hatch, good to go. And I've had great luck with seating moly rings in instantly. Of course, I hammer the engine from the get go...

R/T
01-04-2006, 08:51 AM
I've been using the Speed Pro rings, and hone with a 3 stone unit.

I think it's a good idea to deglaze the cylender walls while the motor is apart.

All is well on the 2 engines I did this to..... :thumb:

altered7151
01-04-2006, 01:43 PM
What size ball-hone did you guys use? I've always used a 3-stone in the past, but have heard good things about the ball/flex-hone. It shows that the 3.75" is good for bores from 3.125 to 3.75, and the 3.5" is good for 3.00 to 3.5, I figured I'd for for the 3.75" so I can use it on other engines. Just wondering what you guys have had luck with.

GLHS0658
01-04-2006, 01:59 PM
3.5" would be the correct size to use. The sides of the balls have the point on them to create the cross hatch pattern. A ball hone to large would not work like it is intended.

Mike

altered7151
01-04-2006, 03:11 PM
Makes sense, thanks!

87csx2.4
01-04-2006, 07:12 PM
3.5 ball hone is what I use goodson tool sells them for like 40 bucks.

Turbo Joe
01-04-2006, 08:12 PM
i use the 3.125-3.750 120 grit ballflex hone. i run cast rings though.
moly likes it smoother 180? i'm always in that engine so replacing
cheaper rings that seat way faster for a car that is drag only is my
route. perfect seal almost instant. make sure you pay close attention
to the crosshatches you make in degrees , it matters! I prefer the
"bottlebrush" over the hardstone cause of the more equal pressure you
have honing. my .02..:thumb:

Tony Hanna
01-05-2006, 06:16 PM
You are correct. Do NOT use a torque plate if you are saying with the stock bore. A torque plate is installed in the final honing process. Usually the block is bored first then finish honed (2 different machines). The torque plate is installed with the last .003-.005 to go. The finishing stone (grit) is matched to whatever rings you use. Cast rings would use a courser grit than Chrome moly rings.

If you are staying with your current bore size, I would use a ball hone. They are also available in different grits/finishes.

Mike

That's interesting. I've always used the coarse stones for moly rings due to them being harder. In fact, the only engine I've ever built that I couldn't get the rings to seat in was honed with fine stones and used moly rings.
After that, I've always used coarse and never had a problem.:confused:

GLHSKEN
01-05-2006, 07:54 PM
Never honed...All engines were 150+ across the board with hastings moly rings. Had one 165 across the board... All blew a slight puff of blue when 1st started, nothing after.

GLHS0658
01-06-2006, 02:42 PM
That's interesting. I've always used the coarse stones for moly rings due to them being harder. In fact, the only engine I've ever built that I couldn't get the rings to seat in was honed with fine stones and used moly rings.
After that, I've always used coarse and never had a problem.:confused:

Using a course stone will get the rings to seat quicker but will also wear them out quicker. The correct grit stone will require a longer break in but will last.

Mike

As Ken said...don't hone. If you see the factory cross hatch, you're probably OK.
Hasting Rings are VERY good for seating quickly!

Tony Hanna
01-07-2006, 09:22 PM
Mike,
What's your opinion of the FM/Sealed Power moly rings? That's the brand easiest to get around here and what I normally use.
Thanks,

turbovanmanČ
01-07-2006, 11:28 PM
^Nothing wrong with them, I have used them before with no issues.

Tony Hanna
01-07-2006, 11:55 PM
Thanks Simon. They saw around 28 psi in the Daytona with no problem and John is now using that car for a daily driver. I've got a set of them waiting to go in the 2.5 that's on the stand now. It's reassuring to hear another good review though.
Thanks Again,

GLHS0658
01-08-2006, 01:10 PM
Sealed Power are Good rings as well. I looked up the info on honing for Sealed Power and Hastings. 180 grit is optimal.
FWD Perf also sells them.

Mike

Holley
01-08-2006, 03:38 PM
I think I might just need to hone before chucking this engine in the Charger ...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/katejames/feelinbored.jpg

lol, its a real mirror image. I think I can get away with just a hone, rings and bearings though as luckily they're all the same all the way round :)

Tony Hanna
01-08-2006, 04:50 PM
What's the ridge like? I usually look at the ridge as an indicator of how bad the bore is worn. The 2.5 I'm putting together now doesn't have enough of a ridge to hang a fingernail on, so I feel pretty cofident that it'll do fine with just a new set of rings.

turbovanmanČ
01-08-2006, 04:58 PM
I think I might just need to hone before chucking this engine in the Charger ...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/katejames/feelinbored.jpg

lol, its a real mirror image. I think I can get away with just a hone, rings and bearings though as luckily they're all the same all the way round :)

The head or ? was leaking oil, those oil rings are sealing just fine.

Holley
01-08-2006, 06:18 PM
I was refering to there being no honing marks at all - the cylinder walls are a perfect mirror surface! The ridge at the top is next to nothing.

As for the oil, I think the valve guides just need replacing :)

turbovanmanČ
01-08-2006, 06:25 PM
I was refering to there being no honing marks at all - the cylinder walls are a perfect mirror surface! The ridge at the top is next to nothing.

As for the oil, I think the valve guides just need replacing :)


No problem, just wanted to let you know if you were chasing oil burning issues that your rings aren't your problem, :thumb:

Holley
01-08-2006, 07:11 PM
Thanks, 99% of the time I do need that kinda help, I am just a tinkerer ;)

R/T
01-08-2006, 11:06 PM
What's your opinion of the FM/Sealed Power moly rings? That's the brand easiest to get around here and what I normally use.
Thanks,

I have the Sealed Power rings in 3 engines, and it will be 4 this weekend.

I always hone with a 3 stone, as these engines all had some issues in the cylenders - ridges, rust, melted pistons, etc... 100,000 miles will do that to a cylender.

The SP rings are easy to use being pre gapped, and are only $50 or so at Advance Auto Parts. ;)

Tony Hanna
01-09-2006, 01:43 AM
Thanks Tracy. The Sealed Power rings in the Daytona still seem to be doing fine and after hearing plenty of good about them here, I'm not going to hesitate using them in the 2.5.

johnl
01-19-2006, 05:29 PM
Simon - Just wondering, how do you know, from looking at the photo, that the oil rings are fine? Is it because the cylinder walls are perfectly polished?

turbovanmanČ
01-19-2006, 05:35 PM
Simon - Just wondering, how do you know, from looking at the photo, that the oil rings are fine? Is it because the cylinder walls are perfectly polished?


Nope. If looking at the pistons, like above, there evenly coated with carbon. If you have worn rings, at positions 12 and 6 oclock, the piston would be washed. I have a TD here with that so I will post pics later.

BTW, reringing said car and I am going to try not honing and post results. Fingers crossed.

johnl
01-23-2006, 05:26 PM
Nope. If looking at the pistons, like above, there evenly coated with carbon. If you have worn rings, at positions 12 and 6 oclock, the piston would be washed. I have a TD here with that so I will post pics later.

BTW, reringing said car and I am going to try not honing and post results. Fingers crossed.


Do you say 12 and 6 o'clock (or 180* apart at any o'clock) because that is where the gaps on the first and second compression rings should be and that oil is getting by them on intake stroke?

What kind of rings are you going to try without honing? Moly faced might be too slick to seat?

GLHSKEN
01-23-2006, 05:35 PM
What kind of rings are you going to try without honing? Moly faced might be too slick to seat?

I've seated instantly with Hastings moly rings withour honing... several times

turbovanmanČ
01-23-2006, 05:43 PM
Do you say 12 and 6 o'clock (or 180* apart at any o'clock) because that is where the gaps on the first and second compression rings should be and that oil is getting by them on intake stroke?

What kind of rings are you going to try without honing? Moly faced might be too slick to seat?

Looking at the engine, from the front at 12 and 6. This is the thrust so this where the oil and combustion leaks thru.

I got Hastings Moly rings, :thumb: Cast won't last in a turbo engine, the ring will melt or deform.

Should have it running tomorrow or Wednesday, came down with the flu so coudldn't work on it this weekend. Had the head redone, new oil line too.

johnl
01-25-2006, 12:09 AM
Looking at the engine, from the front at 12 and 6. This is the thrust so this where the oil and combustion leaks thru.

I got Hastings Moly rings, :thumb: Cast won't last in a turbo engine, the ring will melt or deform.

Should have it running tomorrow or Wednesday, came down with the flu so coudldn't work on it this weekend. Had the head redone, new oil line too.

Education is a good thing. Thanks Simon.:)

turbovanmanČ
01-25-2006, 02:07 AM
Well, I am in shock, the rings seated up pretty fast. Went out and beat on it at 7psi and so far so good. Very little blowby and after I broke it in, I removed the plugs and looked inside the bores-no signs of oil. It sat overnight and started it, no clouds of blue. So I will have him come back next week and I will recheck the compression and perform a leak down test. I don't know if I would do this on a N/A engine though.

Moparbishi
01-25-2006, 02:33 AM
/\ was this with no honeing and the crome moly rings liek autozone sells with 59.99 and was the honing visable? just want to double check as i will be doing that very very soon

turbovanmanČ
01-25-2006, 01:29 PM
/\ was this with no honeing and the crome moly rings liek autozone sells with 59.99 and was the honing visable? just want to double check as i will be doing that very very soon



Cross hatch was barely visible, Hastings rings but I am sure any rings are fine, cleaned out the carbon and oil holes on the piston. Put them in, went out and beat on it, so far, so good.

Moparbishi
01-25-2006, 10:02 PM
awsome thanks man. that helpalot in my honing desision. i se slight crass hatching and autozone can order me a set of moly hastings rings for 50$. that that is what im gana do man. thnx alot for the info

Dez
10-18-2007, 08:52 PM
Guys, very good info here. Where is it you guys buy the ball hone? Ebay ones good?

It seems the block I have in my garage still has the factory crosshatches, so i might be good there :)

Dez
10-18-2007, 09:01 PM
3.5 ball hone is what I use goodson tool sells them for like 40 bucks.

http://www.goodson.com/store/template/product_detail.php?IID=2842&SID=1c2d5d4a11ef886f5909b5aa8e73a24b

Would that be the tool?

Turbodave
10-19-2007, 01:41 AM
That looks like the correct one.

Dez
10-19-2007, 09:16 PM
Sweet, now i just need the cash to buy it :)

Directconnection
10-19-2007, 09:45 PM
ALWAYS re-hone. There's a glaze on the cylinder walls that makes it hard for the new rings to seat. Some have had success not doing this, but those are lucky ones. I also attribute it to someone who runs it hard out of the box. Someone being lazy and easy on it will take a real long time, especially with the moly rings.

Good friend had a 440 built with moly rings. broke it in, changed the oil...took it out for a spin and noticed it was puffing blue smoke. Engine builder told him to take it back out and hammer it. That's all it took.

I just witnessed tonight what it takes to break in an engine. Now... this is a roller cam engine (.748 lift!) 540ci BB Chevy made 738 hp on break in pulls using the dyno room's carb (no jetting changes from different engine it was used on last...just getting the engine broke in and in the ballpark at this point)


What they do is give it a high idle until the water temps are at 172 (and oil temps are up) at around 2,100 rpms (any lower and a race engine like this can load up after a few minutes idling away) Then, once that is good, they load the engine at WOT at 4k for about 5-10 seconds, then let it rip. This one started at 710hp. Next pull was about 720 after brief cooldown between each pull. Next pull, about 730, then 738. Then down to 731. That's when they know the engine is broken in when the HP levels off. This one dropped 7hp and it was due to the engine heatsoaking a bit. Now, they start playing with jets and spark and different carb. Engine should have pulled 750+ but I had to get home.

In my engine I work on thread, monday, I will be posting pics of a genuine NASCAR crate engine we are building (our 2nd one) This thing is cool and comes totally complete with all billet accessories to boot. Comes in one big azz crate, too with color instructions and every part is bar coded. You cannot machine anything or it makes it illegal. No balancing, nothing.

Directconnection
10-19-2007, 09:49 PM
http://www.goodson.com/store/template/product_detail.php?IID=2842&SID=1c2d5d4a11ef886f5909b5aa8e73a24b

Would that be the tool?

Wash ou your bores and engine after with a few cans of brake cleaner. THEN... get some Dawn dish soap and hot water and a soft brush and wash the bores again this way and rinse with water. The honing grit won't totally wash away ntil you wash it with soap and water.

turbovanmanČ
10-19-2007, 09:53 PM
In my engine I work on thread, monday, I will be posting pics of a genuine NASCAR crate engine we are building (our 2nd one) This thing is cool and comes totally complete with all billet accessories to boot. Comes in one big azz crate, too with color instructions and every part is bar coded. You cannot machine anything or it makes it illegal. No balancing, nothing.

What are you guys doing to it then?

Dez
10-19-2007, 10:12 PM
Wash ou your bores and engine after with a few cans of brake cleaner. THEN... get some Dawn dish soap and hot water and a soft brush and wash the bores again this way and rinse with water. The honing grit won't totally wash away ntil you wash it with soap and water.

Good advice, thank you. :thumb:

Directconnection
10-20-2007, 05:03 PM
Good advice, thank you. :thumb:


just helping out a fellow dodge enthusiast. :)

You won't belive the crap that comes out when final washign with simply soap and water. Before doing the soap and water thing, take a white cloth or paper towel and get it damp and wipe. You probably will see the residue on it. I'd also get a real long pipe cleaner to run through the block's oil galleys as well.

Directconnection
10-20-2007, 05:03 PM
What are you guys doing to it then?

we just assemble it and then dyno it. No modifications of any sort allowed.

Directconnection
10-23-2007, 10:23 PM
Here's a pic of the crate with all the other pics at this point in the thread: "engines I work on"

Dez
10-26-2007, 11:27 AM
So the other day i bought a 3-prong engine hone tool from autozone, used my autozone $20 reward car :]

Today, i went out side and did around 8-10 passes on each cylinder, and i believe it looks good :]

Now i just need some Rods and pistons haha.

Oh, and to clean out all the gunk.