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View Full Version : guess its time for a "whats needed to rebuild 3.0 thread"



Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 01:32 AM
plan is to pick up a motor tomorrow. What should i look for? im hoping to find a late model van with low miles. ill be turning the crank to see if things are good


what i need is links on where to buy things, how to go about stuff, etc.

i want to run 1g dsm headbolts for my 2 bolt main just because. ill be using the new motors heads with my current cams. they will be milled for flatness and valve stem seals replaced.. unless i get lazy again :P

rings and bearings is my main concern.. idk where to start or how to go about anything. halp

Mdoe8
02-22-2012, 02:25 AM
Sounds like you're going towards a similar build as me1 Going to open the ring gaps?

As for junkyard, it's tough to tell without pulling things apart. Aside from obvious visual clues, check all plugs to make sure they look normalish.

Are you going to completely rebuild the motor? A simple plastigauge clearance check is a good way to get things going as far as checking bearings.

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 02:41 AM
i want to do what is necessary to make it reliable with boost. 12-16psi through my turbo.

i want to keep stock pistons rods crank. heads will be stock with my mitsu cams.

the rings will deff have to be opened up to support the power i want on 93 octane. i want to find a 95+ up motor to be sure it has the good valve guides. for the heads, i only want to have to swap in new valve stem seals. i never ended up doing it with my car. new headgaskets seemed to cure the oil burning that i had.. so much for that.


i guess im trying to take a stock block and make it as good as it will get on a budget. 1g dsm headbolts are easy to find (im assuming 1g 4g63 headbolts are same N/A or turbo)

rings are needed and opening the gap is free.

as far as bearing go.. i have no idea where to start. i know i have to measure things but ive never done such a thing so ill have to tear into it to figure all that out.



with the new motor, ill be able to mock up a custom rear manifold with provisions for my wastegate.

Mdoe8
02-22-2012, 02:51 AM
Hit up youtube for measuring clearances. Its pretty simple and even easier when you see someone else do it first.

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 02:54 AM
i will for sure man.

what all should i expect to buy for the block (not worried about heads right now)

Shadow24
02-22-2012, 08:08 AM
there shouldn't be much to buy for the block really. If your doing a complete R&R on the motor, there are a couple things to keep in mind. Watch out for the new bearings, some places won't tell you that the bearings they list are now aluminum instead of Tri-mental. You'll also need plastigauge to check the clearances on the bottom end.

If all is good on the new motor's bottom end, i wouldn't mess with it if you don't have to. you really don't need to swap rings out either if they are in good shape (gap to fit boosted application of course) as the current rings are already bedded to the cylinders and you won't realy have to "break in" the motor if you keep the old rings.

I'd also refresh the timing components and the front & rear main seals, just in case (PITA to fix later). Other than that, I'm not sure there is much else you'd need to address on a replacement motor without spending a ton of money that probably isn't needed in your application

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 09:35 AM
how do i check oil pump clearneces? im thinking just swap my oil pump in. im worried any new ones wont be as good as oem (this is stock)

RoadWarrior222
02-22-2012, 09:38 AM
You don't want my list, it's a bit strange and experimental, and while it adds up fine in theory, I need to get the bits and test assemble....

But anyhoo, what Shadow24 said, plus the waterpump so I can forget about it for 100K... then of course, "on condition" for everything else, like if the coolant crosspipe looks rotty etc.

However, one thing, the rings got thinner as the years went on... I am not sure anyone has run boost on the thinnest rings (Wanna say 98 ish to end of run) There's also some claimed compression bump later on, but no-one has been able to measure it.

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 09:41 AM
i can compare them to my motor's pistons. maybe the part number for the rings is different?

i want new rings. ill get the nice crome ones ed uses.


so i dont need new bearings if my current ones check out?

RoadWarrior222
02-22-2012, 09:47 AM
Not saying they never ever need bearings, but they have to be abused by Satan himself, or Brent learning to tune, so unless you get a 500,000 miler that was run out of oil and you're only messing with because you got it for free... then you probably won't have to worry about it... (Given a reasonable choice of two or three motors i.e. not forced to take the only one in 200 miles for less than $1000)

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 09:48 AM
my motor will run me 125 lol

so bearings are good if they look good and the clearances check out

check

Shadow24
02-22-2012, 11:15 AM
These motors are pretty bullet-resistant (was going to say bullet-proof, but you CAN kill them if you REALLY TRY :)). If you want to check the oil pump, all you need are the specs (haynes or FSM) and a feeler gauge. If you didn't have any issues with oil pressure/flow, again its not something to really worry about. You could always pick the better of the two depending on the motor you get (as RW222 pointed out, mileage, abuse etc). The only real issue with the oil pump is when you start revving above 9000, the gears can shatter (see 3si.org), but for turboed under 8000rpms, you shouldn't have any issues.

and to reiterate RW222 - water pump and timing components are cheap insurance.

FWIW, I spun 2 rod bearings a couple years back (oil pressure sender disappeared at 6000rpms at the track dumping all my oil) and was able to toss in a set of new stock sized bearings, new front and rear main seals and go. no damage to the crank or rods luckily (spun them at idle and didn't run it much afterwards). Motor is still running ATM with probably another 100 drag passes and 30,000 miles w/o issues.

Mdoe8
02-22-2012, 02:24 PM
Agreed with everything said above, well put guys!

Also, LOL at "or brent learning to tune"

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 02:58 PM
this is my list so far

Heads -

new valve stem seals
3.3 conical springs
lightweight ls1 retainers
mitsu oem cams
milled for flatness
MLS headgaskets (unless the price highly out weighs felpros. I might go felpro with copper spray)
smoothed out and polished ports

block

- fresh hone. i want to break it in nicely. the ecu is tuned for boost so mine as well take advantage. alot of you guys dont have the luxury of being able to break the motor in with boost due to no boost tune.

new rings. ill go with ed's rings or the rings DSM graveyard can get me. im still talking to them about it
new bearings (depending if needed or not)
oil pump checked
new timing belt from current block
new water pump
new front and rear main.
dsm headbolts for 2bolt main. do these need to be new or is it acceptable to pull them off a junkyard 1g 4g63?


what about wrist pins? (is that what they are called? the thing that holds the piston to the rod. ive never actually held a piston and rod or looked at how they are connected. do these need to be checked?

did i miss anything for the heads and block? right now im only talking heads and block. the other stuff will come later.

MC#4
02-22-2012, 03:11 PM
I always put money into machine work on a rebuild. I always get heads cleaned and pressure tested (for cracks), Good idea to get a fresh 3 angle valve job too. I always have them clean the block and magnaflux it (for cracks). Let them determine if the heads need milled or if the block needs decked. I'm also a big fan of torque plates when boring/honing in a performance build. I know alot of guys say these motors don't need a torque plate but It can only help. You should consider letting them check for bent rods too since it only costs a couple dollars and then you know.

At the very least let the machine shop clean your heads/block, it will make your experience much more pleasant.

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 03:23 PM
they will def be checking the heads and block to make sure the surfaces are nice and smooth. not sure about a valve job. how important is it? if the guides are in place and not dropped.. a valve job cost money, new valves and guides and im not sure if its needed


only reason for the spring and retainer upgrade is that i mine as well do it while the car is down and out sense ive already bought the stem seals. otherwise i would use my current heads that didnt seem to leak oil when the new headgaskets were installed.

i am on a budget here.. if i can get my mom to buy me cleaning supplies so i can clean the block my self.. then thats what ill do LOL

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

so we are supposed to be able to run MLS dohc headgaskets

these are the pictures autozone provided me. (dosnt mean they are exact but im curious)

felpro composite (what brent and i have)

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/fpr/9112PT/image/4/

MLS for dohc twin turbo (also felpro)

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/fpr/26186PT/image/4/

i guess if the blocks are the same then the headgaskets should be the same..

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

i might pull a dohc head and compare the headgasket to my original ones

MC#4
02-22-2012, 03:54 PM
Around here its common practice for a the shop to clean the heads/block before ANY work. You could scrub the block for days and detail with a toothbrush but as soon as they get it they will throw it in thier "hot-tank" overnight to clean all the passages and everything. You can prob get away without a valve job and you can even lap the seats yourself with valve grinding compound and a suction cup on a stick. That would the very budget rebuild way but far from a performance rebuild. You won't need new valves either way, they will cut your old ones to match the new seat or just let them alone if you just lap em.

I'm pretty sure The DOHC MLS do work but I can't say personally. 3sx has Mitsu OEM MLS for $62ea. I just slapped those felpro's you have pictured on my car a few weeks ago and they seem to be fine so far. They list for $18ea or so.

RoadWarrior222
02-22-2012, 03:55 PM
Bear in mind that chrome rings need a coarser hone than moly faced rings.

turbovanmanČ
02-22-2012, 04:25 PM
If the bearings are not marked, then you can reuse, I do it all the time, :nod:

I've noticed 3.0L tend to pit up the deck surface, so I would get it decked and cleaned, then you can hone it and put it back together. I would also do cam seals unless you did them before.

Your list otherwise is ok.

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 06:01 PM
the felpro top end kit will be used. it has all the top end gaskets. very complete



im such a little girl! decided im not getting a second block.. i dont have any reason to just not rebuild this motor. save the $125. it would be nice to have two motors but im not driving anyways.

ill keep you guys posted on my progress. if i can, i will pull the motor tonight

Irocelectric93
02-22-2012, 06:31 PM
Sorry to hear your motor crapped joe. Hopefully next time things will be better (which i know they will) I dont believe the DSM mainbolts are torque to yield so junkyard ones should be fine and pretty much everything else on your list looks good. 3.3 springs and ls1 retainers are a cheap upgrade but keep in mind the LS locks have to be trimmed but thats not a big deal. For a rear header design what are you going with or are you having Ed build it? You basically stated all your heat issues in your other thread....Timing,Air dam,Fan rewire, etc. Good luck dude.

Murphy
02-22-2012, 07:34 PM
just a thought here...

while you have it apart, might you consider 10:1 pistons? I know compression and boost usually don't go well together, but I thought Brent had good luck/experience with it.

I can't remember the exact year diamante they come from, something like 92-96? There should be info on that here, or I know I found it on TD before, or just searching around on google.

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?58077-10-1-Diamante-pistons

RoadWarrior222
02-22-2012, 08:40 PM
I figure that might be due to lack of tuning options that 10:1 worked well, in that it kept the boosted/unboosted compression ratios nearer, so it wasn't so night and day for fuelling and spark.... meaning a loss of theoretical volumetric efficiency.... but on the other hand, keeping it easier to fudge with an RR AFPR... so not having 10:1 means more potential, if you have the tuning mechanisms to get the best out of it... also helps it not lose low end if you don't spool very low... and also should be better for mpg in vacuum.

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 11:21 PM
just a thought here...

while you have it apart, might you consider 10:1 pistons? I know compression and boost usually don't go well together, but I thought Brent had good luck/experience with it.

I can't remember the exact year diamante they come from, something like 92-96? There should be info on that here, or I know I found it on TD before, or just searching around on google.

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?58077-10-1-Diamante-pistons

brent ran e85. while i want to run e85. i wont touch it until i have the walbro installed, stainless lines, and bigger injectors that are alcohol friendly.

93 octane and 350whp will be enough to please me. hell, im happy now and im afraid im making like 245whp or something with a laggy spool.


Sorry to hear your motor crapped joe. Hopefully next time things will be better (which i know they will) I dont believe the DSM mainbolts are torque to yield so junkyard ones should be fine and pretty much everything else on your list looks good. 3.3 springs and ls1 retainers are a cheap upgrade but keep in mind the LS locks have to be trimmed but thats not a big deal. For a rear header design what are you going with or are you having Ed build it? You basically stated all your heat issues in your other thread....Timing,Air dam,Fan rewire, etc. Good luck dude.


thanks for the nice words.

i have a feeling that i got unlucky with the heads sealing. remember, i did NOT mill the heads or check them when the new head gaskets went on. the motor always got nice and hot when i hit boost but i neverr thought anything of it. ticking time bomb. i always wanted to ask about the heat but just never did.. afraid of my suspicions being right i guess.

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

with the custom rear manifold and no ducttape holding the piping together, it should come alive earlier... i never checked for leaks because i know it must be bad. i just dont complain about it... we plan on making a low profile mount or modding the current one to allow for piping to go straight to the throttle body without any ghetto fab and ducttape.


speaking of custom rear manifold.. how should i go about it

im ordering this flange http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/flanges-custom-waterjet-cutting-36/header-flanges-194/mitsubishi-197/mitsubishi-6g72-sohc-header-flange-3-8-mild-steel-799.html?osCsid=b08b9839a9146a2c400a88467bf74f08

not sure what pieces of pipe i should order to build it and run it to the crossover. i want something small and simple. it will also have my EWG on it.

Mdoe8
02-22-2012, 11:31 PM
Headers aren't too bad, just tight clearances to make it into the merge pipe.

Or just do a simple log style header. These have made huge power on other cars.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/pipes1243/Camaro/LogHeaders.jpg

Sundance 6g72
02-22-2012, 11:36 PM
i want it to look like ed's

http://kmperformance.com/products/turboheaders/crossover/side2.jpg

small log means more room for wastegate and 3inch future downpipe if i ever do that.

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 02:28 AM
http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/builder-kits-33/super-builder-kits-47/1-625-od-2-50-radius-16-gauge-mild-steel-super-builder-kit-115.html

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 12:40 PM
thinking about those bends for the rear manifold

and thinking about these bearings

http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=29525

Irocelectric93
02-23-2012, 12:46 PM
Ed's is your best basic design. I'd build my own but i don't have access to a 220 MIG at the moment and im not buying one because i dont have room at the moment either between my TIG and my 110 MIG.

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 12:48 PM
a 110 should be able to do it. lay a couple passes down. otherwise why not the tig? throw some sexi beads onto some stainless

think this will get the job done?

http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog...r-kit-115.html (http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/builder-kits-33/super-builder-kits-47/1-625-od-2-50-radius-16-gauge-mild-steel-super-builder-kit-115.html)

c2xejk
02-23-2012, 01:33 PM
Remember that whatever you build will ultimately be supporting the turbo... So you will want one side to be schedule 40 pipe or you will need to add structure... The bends you linked to above will not support a turbo for long...

For some 304 schedule 40 bend, you might want to try this place. I have not ordered from them yet, but there prices look very good (1/2 what I had been paying from mild steel schedule 40 bends...)

http://www.acestainless.com/butt-weld-fittings/weld-els/schedule-40-304l

turbovanmanČ
02-23-2012, 01:47 PM
King bearings FTMFW, :nod:

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 01:56 PM
King bearings FTMFW, :nod:

cool. hope dohc and sohc use the same bearings. they should. same rods and crank

Ed. ill check out that link. was hoping to order all at the same place

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

is there a problem with the wastegate being on the rear manifold?

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 02:12 PM
i can only seem to find 1.61 ID bends on that sight. is that okay? im shooting for 1.55

Mdoe8
02-23-2012, 02:49 PM
A 110 will do just fine, I built my rx7 turbo kit with this and it worked great. Must be noted though, I made a brace for the turbo and attached it to the motor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-47Iw9jCLw

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 02:59 PM
so pause everything

i can get coated npr pistons, new rings, rist pins, bla bla bla for $220.

im bout to jump on this but they are 24valve pistons. is it okay to do this LMFAO

RoadWarrior222
02-23-2012, 03:01 PM
I'm thinking the only real troublespot with a 110 is if you've got a really thick hunk of flange, getting penetration into that... but if you're following your structural welding 101 stuff, you'll have put a bevel on it.... for the tube to tube stuff... if you are having trouble with the 110, you'd be blowing holes in it with the 220.

Mdoe8
02-23-2012, 03:04 PM
Were you kidding about the 24v pistons? Cause the reliefs will be different, might as well buy forged tt pistons and notch them ;)

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 03:07 PM
lol i wasnt. the guy at dsm graveyard was convinced they woudl work but then i told him for the second time that im 12valve and then he was like "OOOOOOOOOOO idk then"

some good that does

o well. im staying with my current pistons. getting crome rings that ed uses

RoadWarrior222
02-23-2012, 03:22 PM
I had heard you'll get full clearance when running if it's timed right, but otherwise it's light interference if you lose the belt... i.e. do it if you want but be anal about the belt.

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 03:24 PM
yeah im not doing it. interference is stupid.

go figure mandrel-bends.com has the straight pipe i need. the t bends that i need but not the 90 degree bends that i need.

cool.

Mdoe8
02-23-2012, 03:45 PM
ebay is your friend for a lot of things, find some piping on there

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-1992-Chrysler-Car-181-3-0L-SOHC-V6-12V-6G72-PISTONS-MOLY-RINGS-/270886548971?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3f1218b5eb


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsubishi-3-0L-SOHC-12V-6G72-Pistons-Rings-Bearings-/360320762635?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item53e4ca830b (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-1992-Chrysler-Car-181-3-0L-SOHC-V6-12V-6G72-PISTONS-MOLY-RINGS-/270886548971?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3f1218b5eb)

Sundance 6g72
02-23-2012, 03:48 PM
ehh figured it out. made my order. now im heading out to pull the motor

Irocelectric93
02-23-2012, 06:55 PM
I'm thinking the only real troublespot with a 110 is if you've got a really thick hunk of flange, getting penetration into that... but if you're following your structural welding 101 stuff, you'll have put a bevel on it.... for the tube to tube stuff... if you are having trouble with the 110, you'd be blowing holes in it with the 220.^this Dont get my wrong i like my 110 and have had schooling in welding and understand the theory side of things but i've always preferred having a 220. I'd really like to TIG some stainless headers...but i dont really care enough at the moment to be honest. We'll see maybe you've guys inspired me and ill build my own stuff but i like Ed's work and sometimes...i just dont have time which is something you can't buy.

c2xejk
02-23-2012, 08:55 PM
ebay is your friend for a lot of things, find some piping on there

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-1992-Chrysler-Car-181-3-0L-SOHC-V6-12V-6G72-PISTONS-MOLY-RINGS-/270886548971?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3f1218b5eb

I wonder how representative the picture is. There is no dish on those pistons, so they are 10:1.... $137 for pistons and rings is really good... I was looking at ~$100 for just chrome rings through RockAuto...

Mdoe8
02-23-2012, 10:17 PM
Not sure, can always message him and ask. The description states they are 8.9:1

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 04:55 AM
motor is out. i did it by my self for the most part but did everything slow and we took brakes to do other things.


oil did not look nice.. it had a greanishness to it and was kinda creamy but nothing that stood out.

its on the stand right now.. not torn down


two things to think about

- my oil dip stick is ruined ( i think) it got bent up during engine removal.

- power steering is coming out. is it cool to just loop the lines for the rack with fluid in them? i grew fond of no power steering so i want the pump gone for more space, cleaner look, less weight.



coolant anyone?

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/420347_10150692070648899_534573898_11044466_180814 0957_n.jpg



my steel was shipped today too. cool

wallace
02-24-2012, 08:19 AM
Can you use the DOHC heads on this engine?

RoadWarrior222
02-24-2012, 08:26 AM
Short answer: No
Not quite as short answer: It's more work than you'd think.

---------- Post added at 07:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------


oil did not look nice.. it had a greanishness to it and was kinda creamy but nothing that stood out.


Ick, maybe this one will need bearings if you've been running hard on milkshake..... every winter I'd get a bit of condensation scum in mine though, so not entirely sure how bad we're talking here... but green sounds like coolant. Did we have some worries about your headgasket a few months back?

Reaper1
02-24-2012, 09:40 AM
How am I NOT subscribed to this!? LOL Well...I am now! :)

87turbodance
02-24-2012, 11:45 AM
subscribed

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 12:29 PM
Short answer: No
Not quite as short answer: It's more work than you'd think.

---------- Post added at 07:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------



Ick, maybe this one will need bearings if you've been running hard on milkshake..... every winter I'd get a bit of condensation scum in mine though, so not entirely sure how bad we're talking here... but green sounds like coolant. Did we have some worries about your headgasket a few months back?

well i put new headgaskets on but did not mill the heads like i should have. like ed said, its best to do that. Brent did not tell me to NOT mill the heads.. he told me he has gotten away with not doing it so i took a stab at it and i think that caused the heads to not seal right and allowed me to heat up when in boost.. enough was enough and POP


thanks for subscriptions guys. i hope to start cleaning gunk out tonight after work

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 AM ----------


Can you use the DOHC heads on this engine?

they bolt on but my accessories wont work with the new heads and its hard to fit the motor into the bay. its not a direct swap for the dodge cars.

TainterRacing
02-24-2012, 12:37 PM
I didn't think the dohc heads have the same coolant and oil placement. So you can't realy bolt it on...... and run it.

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 12:38 PM
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/409049_10150693240353899_534573898_11047616_171751 4137_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/421183_10150693240408899_534573898_11047617_130920 9840_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/419877_10150693240458899_534573898_11047618_199144 2739_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/401235_10150693240528899_534573898_11047619_562429 21_n.jpg


http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/423125_10150693240628899_534573898_11047621_110403 1278_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/396290_10150693240678899_534573898_11047622_117661 7136_n.jpg






so what do i do about the dip stick and dip stick tube....

Mdoe8
02-24-2012, 01:03 PM
Go to a junkyard and buy another one, or bend it back.

As for power steering, yes you can loop it. Many lsx rx7 people do this. It will be harder to move than a manual rack though.

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 03:37 PM
i havnt looked at it much. if its hard to pull at the yard ill just bend it unless someone gives me a legit reason to just ditch it

wallace
02-24-2012, 03:48 PM
Can you swap the entire DOHC engine in place of the SOHC?

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 03:50 PM
as far as head swap goes. i cant see why the dohc heads wouldnt bolt onto a sohc black and here is why. We can run dohc twin turbo OEM MLS headgaskets. they are the best ones available. If the dohc headgasket works then the oil passeges and coolant passeges should be the same

you can swap a dohc motor into a shadow but its not easy. people have done it but you need custom mounts that cant be bought. the a543 tranny will still bolt up though.

enough of that though, not relevent to this thread

TainterRacing
02-24-2012, 04:20 PM
DOHC
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Finfo.rockauto.c om%2FFel-Pro%2F26186PT_TOP.jpg&imagekey=447038-0&width=450




SOHC

http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Finfo.rockauto.c om%2FFel-Pro%2F9112PT_TOP.jpg&imagekey=122422-0&width=450

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 04:22 PM
thats weird. why am i told we can run oem dohc headgaskets...

RoadWarrior222
02-24-2012, 04:29 PM
Because if you flip one of them over they more or less match up :D

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 04:30 PM
ehhh


so summit has crome rings? and how do i do this re grap business?

Ondonti
02-24-2012, 04:47 PM
Do you guys realize that those passages in the gasket are not exactly what the block or head looks like? Some of them are restrictors, etc. Headgaskets are all compatible. They don't look the same but it all works out.
I said before, don't use non oem MLS.
The head seal problems here have nothing to do with something that can be prevented with a different headgasket. MLS are harder to seal in the first place. This was not a cylinder pressure issue anyways. MLS, they like to melt when you push coolant so instead of slow failures you get super fast failure (pressurized coolant dumps into the cylinder the moment you add water). Heat will kill both.

I asked him to check the flatness of his head and he never did. Same with the block. He did a quick job. For all we know his thermostat is not working properly or his radiator is clogged or who knows. Those temperatures will kill a headgasket every time.

Used OEM bearings are fine. I get mine from the junkyard when I have time. I do not reuse a rod that has spun unless I get it resized. 15 bucks per rod is WELL spent. The crankshaft is the thing you have to measure and worry about. Cheaper to just get another used shortblock and drive that and then get an extra to part out or rebuild for "fun" unless you can quickly do a complete rebuild (hard when you are sourcing parts). Only needed thing I see is ring gaps for safety but obviously its easy to blow your motor with something as simple as heat. Its not cheap to fix things but its not smart to purposely be quick with important jobs. I always forget that lesson and it causes me issues. I want to run more boost on my Holset but I don't even get much into boost because I foresee the need of a healthy motor in the future and its not worth the risk at the moment, even if the risk is small. I don't get myself hyped up with justifications that it should be safe. I have gone way past that before and said "I don't care, friends are here, it might get hurt," but I didn't need to drive the car if it died. Timewise I can't afford to do that right now.

You can also just swap in a motor, run safe boost, and then tear apart your old motor and diagnose any problems. Easier to build when you know what needs to be replaced. Take care of needs first, then move to wants. Oil pump is important but its probably good if your oil pressure was fine before spinning. I had a bad one but that was from bending the crankshaft. It could barely maintain any pressure and then it spun a bearing and dropped to almost zero. Pissed me off cause I just put in a new crankshaft and didn't think about what a bend crankshaft would do to the oil pump gears (force them into the sides of the pump case and wear out the case. I was double the service limits!

Sundance 6g72
02-24-2012, 05:23 PM
Do you guys realize that those passages in the gasket are not exactly what the block or head looks like? Some of them are restrictors, etc. Headgaskets are all compatible.

this is what i thought


I asked him to check the flatness of his head and he never did. Same with the block. He did a quick job. For all we know his thermostat is not working properly or his radiator is clogged or who knows. Those temperatures will kill a headgasket every time.
correct correct correct


I do not reuse a rod that has spun unless I get it resized

so what does this mean? if i hav two bad bearings, do i get the rods re-sized?

TainterRacing
02-24-2012, 07:23 PM
You can use any 6g72 headgasket

Ondonti
02-24-2012, 10:56 PM
so what does this mean? if i hav two bad bearings, do i get the rods re-sized?

Resize the rods that spun. Bearings are held in by by a "crush" that decreases when the bearing has spun. Resizing the rod allows it to maintain the same amount of crush. The worse it spun, the worse the rod will be. I would always resize a rod, especially if you have the heads off (have to have the heads off to remove pistons).

That said, its possible to be knocking before the bearing actually spins. Either way you have to fix it.

shayne
02-25-2012, 12:05 AM
felpro permatorque mls head gaskets are identical to the oem mitsubishi mls head gaskets. i dug further into this and it has been confirmed to me through three people who build some high hp 6g72's that they are the same. mitsubishi and npr sources them from felpro. i have them for my own motor im building, they can take a 92.1 mm bore just fine, and i also had my block decked and heads milled lightly for flatness and the correct RA finish for proper sealing. all things being equal a mls headgasket will take more abuse than a standard head gasket, and thats a fact. composite head gaskets arent used in any form of professional racing anymore. a proper tune and you wont push coolant by accident, the heads thin combustion chamber and weak'ish head casting will always be the weak link.
always resize any damaged components, and if your building it up again and really want to do it properly spend the few bucks and buy proper new bearings, have the block decked and heads milled. my crank spec'd out just fine and cleaned up nicely after a polish, i mic'd it and its within spec.
my rings came with my forged pistons, from total seal, and i have mine gapped at .020 top and .022 2nd, and left the oil rings the way they were. once again i filed them to this spec after advice from a local racer who i did headers for a few years ago.
i bought a melling oil pump because my oem one was worn beyond spec.
cheap rebuilds will never return spectacular results.
i have said it before. a lot of folks have made cheap cars fast but reliability is always sub par for a daily driver.
we all have budgets to work on, and im hoping that you can be really happy with your results, im looking forward to it being done again.

Ondonti
02-25-2012, 03:55 AM
felpro permatorque mls head gaskets are identical to the oem mitsubishi mls head gaskets. i dug further into this and it has been confirmed to me through three people who build some high hp 6g72's that they are the same. mitsubishi and npr sources them from felpro. i have them for my own motor im building, they can take a 92.1 mm bore just fine, and i also had my block decked and heads milled lightly for flatness and the correct RA finish for proper sealing. all things being equal a mls headgasket will take more abuse than a standard head gasket, and thats a fact. composite head gaskets arent used in any form of professional racing anymore. a proper tune and you wont push coolant by accident, the heads thin combustion chamber and weak'ish head casting will always be the weak link.
always resize any damaged components, and if your building it up again and really want to do it properly spend the few bucks and buy proper new bearings, have the block decked and heads milled. my crank spec'd out just fine and cleaned up nicely after a polish, i mic'd it and its within spec.
my rings came with my forged pistons, from total seal, and i have mine gapped at .020 top and .022 2nd, and left the oil rings the way they were. once again i filed them to this spec after advice from a local racer who i did headers for a few years ago.
i bought a melling oil pump because my oem one was worn beyond spec.
cheap rebuilds will never return spectacular results.
i have said it before. a lot of folks have made cheap cars fast but reliability is always sub par for a daily driver.
we all have budgets to work on, and im hoping that you can be really happy with your results, im looking forward to it being done again.

No names = no credentials. If I see it from Matt Monett, Scot Merkul, Ray Pampena, GT pro, IPS, or 3sx, then I might buy the story. This would go all the way back to DSM's as well. Fact is that DSM guys run composite headgaskets these days on a regular basis on some of the very fastest cars. This would save a lot of money for people if actually confirmed. 3sx sells non oem gaskets (surely the felpros) and they would use the OEM price if it was the same thing. It would only make business sense if its the same part. Same company does not mean same materials or process or design. Felpro makes budget parts for the 3.0 and also premium parts, etc. I think you can get crappy VSS or premium. Same with crank seals.

Nothing has been done to his motor to need an MLS gasket. MLS will take more abuse, that is why you end up being more likely to hurt your motor then the headgaskets.
I have run two different MLS gaskets and they didn't stop coolant push on our weak cylinder heads.
I really don't think he had a head sealing problem with those temps. A headgasket leak that bad would have been fatal on the first drive. Temps caused his headgasket problem.

Spending extra money that he doesn't have to build up things that don't need built up to still end up in the same boat is not what I would suggest. If he is still overheating, he will just lose a more expensive motor.

MLS gaskets are great with forged pistons because those things just won't break and 3.0's do not preignite which seems to be the killer of forged pistons. That said, my only real worry is the 8.9:1 pistons. 10:1 oem pistons with a big gap will separate the mains before failing. Being able to get away with all that detonation will eventually lose your seal on the MLS or break something. I have not proven myself the sturdiness of 8.9 pistons, even with big gaps. I only know of others and myself failing them on stock gaps. 10:1 pistons are not a great choice for pump gas builds. I think i would rather run TT 8.0:1 pistons. for a pump gas build with nice big gaps. If 10:1 pistons don't need valve reliefs, why would it matter if you run TT pistons? Not proven but it would make sense. Just can't let your timing belt slip and be careful when setting up cam timing. The downside of those TT pistons is that the quench does not match the 3.0 so you might not get the full anti detonation advantage of that lower compression.

Joe has a thing for thinking about what he should do and then skipping a few steps in the excitement of getting the car running soon. I did this myself recently with wiring.
He never checked the flatness of any surfaces when he said he would, he never changed the valve seals when he said he would. I don't want to get him superfocused on something that is not central to his problem. I don't think he needed to change his VSS but he did need to check the flatness of surfaces. I bet they are flat and something else is very unhappy. I don't even think its just his radiator fan. My fan is always on right now and I don't get hot like that. Fan always being on at high loads and high speeds would be bad but he seems to be constantly overheating when sitting still (is this true, or just when driving hard?). For all I know his coolant temperature sensor readings are wrong and just leading my thought process astray. I would assume they are correct and that a replacement motor will soon die after. There are a lot of things that could have happened. I don't remember if the previous headgasket swap was before or after megasquirt. Running constantly at 230 degrees is just wrong. Huge red flag. I called his temps out as a problem and that is how it turned out!

I really don't fear headgasket sealing at mild power levels even with everything done cheap. Having gotten away with it 7 times in a row on 3 different blocks and 4 different cylinder heads and even used OEM paper headgaskets that had been removed and sat for 3 years makes me feel quite good about it. I have never had a failure to seal combustion. Cheap headgasket job will fall prey to overheating just like the biggest dollar setup would. Hey, I have seen the baddest 6g72 ever built (Matt's billet stroker) fail on its first dyno pass because the new OEM oil pump gear grenaded for what seemed like no reason. He and a bunch of others went with billet gears but since all those gear failures happened during a small period of time, most people think it was a bad batch of pumps and not necessarily a need for billet gears. Matt previously ran 6g72s over 9500 rpms without pump failure. It was noted that Aftermarket pumps made by one company have a press fit sleeve on the gear, possibly to improve clearances (tighter) without expensive high tolerance machining. If I put 5k or 10k into a motor I might want billet gears but it has also been shown that those gears seem to slowly get unhappy (but no frags).
Here, I see a need to solve a problem instead of build things stronger that will fail just as bad with excess heat. Overheated motors can do a lot worse then blow headgaskets. Piston and valve seizing sounds fun. Overbuilding is just a bandaid that will fall off after you hit the showers. Or I guess I when I decided to go backwards and use weaker engine parts and be gentler on them, I made a mistake. My forged motor is sitting in storage but I see not use for its oil burning no matter how much abuse I know it can take. I could run ANY AFR I wanted on that motor and it would not die. I originally wanted forged pistons because back then, people here always thought it was necessary to go fast reliably. What they really meant was, it covers up our mistakes better. It does not solve our mistakes. Spending a lot on a motor that could likely fail for an unrelated reason scares my pocketbook. I also wouldn't want to push my only car hard. Even a safe tune and build can't prevent certain bad things from happening.

I made some very bad financial decisions beefing up that motor and it was not worth it. I couldn't pay for my room after paying for the motor and had to borrow money. Probably cost 2k total and I went faster and had more fun with $90 dollars. Spending 500 dollars to make a $90 dollar motor no better then it was before also irks me. I went with Ed on the decision to run chrome rings on my Daily but I still have my doubts. I could afford it so I do not regret it. I would rather run whatever is already in a motor if chances are that the motor never sees enough miles to have OEM rings fail. I was surprised to see his motor get as far as it did with all the issues he had, especially boost creep and constantly playing with ignition timing. Turns out none of that ever hurt his motor! I hope to see a lot of miles. I still might not get there.

Ondonti
02-25-2012, 04:18 AM
Per 3sx, this gasket is "non oem" and looks just like the felpro.

http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/head-gasket-6g72-nonoem-mls-04-400l.jpg


Then here is the OEM. Not made the same.
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/stock-head-gasket-md199239-01-500.jpg

BUT the hillarious thing is...

on the non OEM gasket, they have a closeup that shows what looks like an OEM headgasket..

http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/head-gasket-6g72-nonoem-mls-07-600l.jpg

I will also point out that the Rock Auto pictures do not have the headgaskets facing the same direction. One is flipped.

Sundance 6g72
02-25-2012, 12:44 PM
I think i would rather run TT 8.0:1 pistons. for a pump gas build with nice big gaps. If 10:1 pistons don't need valve reliefs, why would it matter if you run TT pistons? Not proven but it would make sense. Just can't let your timing belt slip and be careful when setting up cam timing. The downside of those TT pistons is that the quench does not match the 3.0 so you might not get the full anti detonation advantage of that lower compression.


now hold on a second. For a little more than $200 i can get a set of brand new pistons, rings, and wrist pins. all nice and shiny and coated with some special thing that must add at LEAST 500hp :P only problem is they are 24valve.

our 8.9:1 pistons dont ever hit valves. these are 8.5:1 sooo why would these? I guess my logic ends with them being designed for dohc heads which would = a different combustion chamger? so maybe these pistons are really 9:1 with our motor or maybe they are 8:1... ?

either way.. $100 for rings seems steep if i can pay twice as much and get a better than stock piston (still cast) with rings and wrist pins and some fancy coating. Otherwise im staying with stock pistons. i dont mind being a test pig for these pistons BUT i will not deal with interference. I screw too many things up to even think about doing that.. my buddies evo just ruined a head because hit brand new belt and timing setup was faulty.


I don't think he needed to change his VSS but he did need to check the flatness of surfaces.

yes and yes. Only issue with this is we wont be able to accurately tell if they where flat or not in the first place. how hot this motor got, it would be hard to tell if it went from good to bad or from bad to worse.


Fan always being on at high loads and high speeds would be bad but he seems to be constantly overheating when sitting still (is this true, or just when driving hard?).

NO I only get hot when i give the car hell. Cruising down the highway and idling it sits at 190. It didnt jump around until recently (right before i got knock)


Running constantly at 230 degrees is just wrong. Huge red flag. I called his temps out as a problem and that is how it turned out!

well new water pump, t stat, chevy temp sensor, and check the radiator like a hawk is what im going to do.. all temps when out of boost seem normal so i would think that at high load they would also be accurate.


I was surprised to see his motor get as far as it did with all the issues he had, especially boost creep and constantly playing with ignition timing. Turns out none of that ever hurt his motor! I hope to see a lot of miles. I still might not get there.

playing with the time a bunch? the most timing i ever ran in boost was simply taking .5 degree out per psi. all runs before that happened to be less. The headgaskets decided to give out last sat. when the car was pushed very hard 3 times with the new 1/2 per psi timing. i seemed to have went faster but at what cost? not saying the timing did it by any means.. just saying i played with timing alot yes but never ran more than i was told too.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

boost never creeped past 190kpa and that was only once. it ave like 180kpa until i added some timing and it actually got better. i wasnt worried.. if i not going over 12psi then who cares? its getting 12psi now that boost is controllable with my ewg.

RoadWarrior222
02-25-2012, 01:20 PM
A few years back, I was kinda okay with making a motor interference... that was before the parts industry got so crap-spammed and it seems like you've got a 50:50 shot of any new pump or tensioner locking up your motor within days of fitting it... EVEN IF they give you a 2+ year warranty on it..... back 5 years ago, you'd think "oh the cheapy one will do a couple of years, the midrange 5 or so, the spendy one maybe 10 or 100,000 like the OEM part" now you think "the cheapy one will last a couple of minutes, the midrange one and half of the spendier ones are just the cheaper one in a fancier box, WTF... " and end up driving round for 2 days finding places that actually have them on the shelf so you can eyeball them before you waste your time and put the rest of the car at risk by fitting it.

Sundance 6g72
02-25-2012, 01:52 PM
exactly

i wonder if we can order tensioners from mitsubishi? like the 4g63 guys do.

Sundance 6g72
02-27-2012, 01:18 AM
so the rings i want to get are these SEALED POWER Part # E528KC

ed plans on running them for his drag week car (now going turbo). for $115.. i would easily justify paying twice as much if it got me new shiny pistons and rings w/ wrist pins and some fancy coating that i know no thing about and is probebly irrelivent to my goals. im not worried about getting new pistons. but again.. they are 24valve and i want to figure out if they would make me interference. noone has shot down the fact that they are 24valve and im not smart enough to know if that would be the smart move or not. (assuming they would still be non interference.)

TainterRacing
02-28-2012, 10:23 AM
exactly

i wonder if we can order tensioners from mitsubishi? like the 4g63 guys do.


You can buy them... About $50 for one.

Sundance 6g72
03-02-2012, 05:24 PM
debating on what to purchase next. With the manifold hopefully being finished tonight, i can pull the heads and check things out.


im thinking the best course of action would be to buy my 3.3 valve springs and ls1 locks and retainers. IDK what else is needed for the heads as far as getting them refreshed goes. i have new valve seals im putting in. id like to keep the stock valves and guides unless i find that they are messed up. I would then get them to the machine shop and checked out to make sure all is good. once im done with the heads and have them ready to bolt on, ill order whats needed for the block and get it machined as needed. I cant buy everything at once but by the time im done with one thing, i tend to have money for another thing. Sense im driving dad's car, i dont spend ANY money so cash flow is pretty decent.

---------- Post added at 04:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

anyone know if i can get ls1 oem locks and ratainers for behive springs from rockauto? that would be amazing! otherwise ill have to get the locks from one ebay seller, retainers from another, and 3.3 springs from rock auto :(

87turbodance
03-02-2012, 05:55 PM
I bought from this guy on ebay:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-BEEHIVE-RETAINERS-HARDENED-LOCKS-LS1-SERIES-L92-/380413660869?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58926bcec5

on Ed's recommendation. However, when I bought mine he was advertising the retainers as "light weight". Now there is no mention of weight. You may want to ask him what he has.

The set above will work with 3.3 beehive springs with a little bit of grinding to the locks so they sit below the tip of the valve stems.

For the 3.3 springs, I bought 12 from rockauto.

c2xejk
03-02-2012, 07:11 PM
Yes you have the correct list of parts. The stock LS1 locks move the retainer down a little too much so you need the Comp Cam 623 (12 or if yo want a few spares order the 16.)

87turbodance
03-02-2012, 09:10 PM
Yes you have the correct list of parts. The stock LS1 locks move the retainer down a little too much so you need the Comp Cam 623 (12 or if yo want a few spares order the 16.)

I used stock LS1 locks on mine. I didn't realize that that I would benefit from using the Comp Cams locks. How much do the stock LS1 locks move the retainer down compared to the Comp Cam 623 locks?

Sundance 6g72
03-02-2012, 11:42 PM
ed, the retainers you gave me a link too.. the listing ended.

are these identical? the ones ryan linked above

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-BEEHIVE-RETAINERS-HARDENED-LOCKS-LS1-SERIES-L92-/380413660869?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58926bcec5


just ordered the comp cams locks and 3.3 valve springs. waiting on the retainers at the moment

87turbodance
03-02-2012, 11:49 PM
Buy these: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Comp-Cams-RETAINERS-LITE-WT-TOOL-STEEL-LS1-1754-16-/250991946997?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a70492cf5

maybe... I believe the LSx motors use beehive springs stock so these should be fine to use but a bit expensive but light weight. Not sure if they're for a beehive spring or not.

or maybe these:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/COMP-CAMS-7-RETAINERS-LS1-LS6-W-BEEHIVE-SPRING-774-16-/140692521815?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20c1ed8357

I don't know the valve spring diameter so I'm just guessing for the most part. Ed would know better. The second option above I believe is correct,

Sundance 6g72
03-03-2012, 12:01 AM
lol, i dont need titanium.

these are what i bought http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-BEEHIVE-RETAINERS-HARDENED-LOCKS-LS1-SERIES-L92-/380413660869?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58926bcec5

BUT havnt paid for yet..

87turbodance
03-03-2012, 12:08 AM
lol, i dont need titanium.

these are what i bought http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-BEEHIVE-RETAINERS-HARDENED-LOCKS-LS1-SERIES-L92-/380413660869?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58926bcec5

BUT havnt paid for yet..

That should work too but they look like stock (LSx) full weight retainers

Sundance 6g72
03-03-2012, 12:14 AM
im not too worried about weight. if they are heavier, damn. if they are lighter, woot. only reason im buying them is to use the 3.3 valve springs.. otherwise id be sticking to stock stock stock.


its is cool that we have the option to use ls retainers though, tons and tons of options available. My question is how far will 3.3 springs rev with titanium locks and retainers before the valves float? ed and i did 7500 but im curious if it will do 8500? im not going to try that but its cool to talk about how high you could rev your motor :P

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

didnt realize they come with locks too :/ o well.. thats why its $10 more i guess. should be the same retainer ed linked me too. i can always sell the extra locks to some ls guy and use my comp cams locks.


so with the comp cams locks, i still have to trim the retainer or...? does anyone have any pictures of the prosses? otherwise ill make a "how to" thread when i do the install.

87turbodance
03-03-2012, 12:24 AM
so with the comp cams locks, i still have to trim the retainer or...? does anyone have any pictures of the prosses? otherwise ill make a "how to" thread when i do the install.

Don't touch the retainers. Trim the top of the locks so that the locks sit below the valve stem tip when installed. If the locks sit above the valve stem tip then there is a good chance that the rocker will push the locks out of the retainer and cause you to drop a valve - not good.

Sundance 6g72
03-03-2012, 12:30 AM
okay i get it now. so i trim them after they are installed? with like a little die grinder?

im thinking of taking a spair valve and trimming them until they are flush with the tip

87turbodance
03-03-2012, 12:31 AM
okay i get it now. so i trim them after they are installed? with like a little die grinder?

im thinking of taking a spair valve and trimming them until they are flush with the tip

test fit the locks then trim separately. Trim enough so that the locks site BELOW the valve stem tip to be safe. I wouldn't touch the valve stems.

Sundance 6g72
03-03-2012, 12:32 AM
okay gotcha spanks

just gotta find the valve i had sitting around

87turbodance
03-03-2012, 12:35 AM
okay gotcha spanks

just gotta find the valve i had sitting around

A spare valve would be perfect to test fit the locks on before and after trimming. Makes sense when you have it all in front of you..

Sundance 6g72
03-03-2012, 12:41 AM
im pictureing it now

i hope the machine shop dosnt rape me

c2xejk
03-03-2012, 08:23 AM
I caught this thread late, but yeah the ones you bought have locks with them.

I couldn't justify the extra cost for titanium. Just going to the smaller LS1 style retainer drops the retainer weight significantly.

Trim the locks off the valve... I used my stationary belt sander. I did a little at a time so the locks don't get too hot.

Why are you worried about the machine shop on this??

Ondonti
03-03-2012, 09:32 AM
How much change in install height with comp cams 623's?

My big cams ate up OEM VSS on my solids. Those LSx retainers would make it worse.

c2xejk
03-03-2012, 10:26 AM
It was either 0.005" or 0.015". With some retainers that Alex's parts used to sell the total was ~0.050". Alex may still have some. I had to ask him directly to get some for Kreel's heads and at time he had a few sets left, but wasn't selling them on ebay. He was searching for a new supplier.

Sundance 6g72
03-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Why are you worried about the machine shop on this??

just in general. idk how much they charge for things and im just hoping it wont be too much. the one i plan on going to is local and they have a great reputation for doing good work on everyday motors and race built motors.. i just hope they have nice prices

i think they charged me $35 to resurface my flywheel?


nice to hear that the retainers are still lighter than stock even though they are steel :thumb:

Sundance 6g72
03-05-2012, 02:22 AM
manifold is built

paduster
03-05-2012, 05:55 PM
manifold is builtpics needed

Sundance 6g72
03-05-2012, 07:29 PM
check other thread..

---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

build thread

paduster
03-05-2012, 08:39 PM
gotcha i saw it

Sundance 6g72
03-06-2012, 01:08 AM
did a little work tonight. piston 1 is damaged. i forgot to look at the spark plug to see if it shattered but piston 1 is deff not right. All the other pistons looked good imo.

the headgaskets imo looks great.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/429416_10150714624913899_534573898_11132407_143017 7056_n.jpg


http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/422096_10150714625013899_534573898_11132409_128229 9449_n.jpg


http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/425083_10150714625048899_534573898_11132410_484559 875_n.jpg

front head

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/428640_10150714625163899_534573898_11132411_160727 3663_n.jpg


http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/429750_10150714625263899_534573898_11132412_188865 7636_n.jpg



here is piston 1. ouch! could this have been the noise i heard? it looks smooshed in or something. i found no debree in the oil that i could see...

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426386_10150714625368899_534573898_11132413_465389 733_n.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K2Xv-3qWTg



now lets lay everything out before we jump to conclusions.

cyl one was one of two choked up cyl with terrible exhaust flow from the capped off manifold. im sure egt was much higher on these 2 cyl. I had also ran more timing that night than before. (3-4 more degrees across the table)

i reviewed some footage of a pull and i saw it hit 13:1 afr once or twice. otherwise it was in the 12s and richer.

so that means detonation right? High EGT, plus more timing, plus 13:1 afr for a moment on 93 pump.. makes sense to me

headgaskets looked great but i never re checked the rear head's tq for the headbolts. they felt inconsistent as i took them off.

havnt gotten to the crank yet. i hope to do that tomorrow and check out the bearings.

Ondonti
03-06-2012, 06:44 AM
Your rings butted. Simple as that. When that happens and your piston smashes a piece of piston against the head you can spin a bearing.

I would say you killed it with timing and high AFR numbers. I don't know why detonation puts so much heat into the rings but that is what happens when they expand. I only broke plugs when the pistons were not able to fail.
Its possible you lost the headgasket on that cylinder as well. What surprises me is that you killed the piston without killing your plug so much that it would not fire. That or you have been running on 5 cylinders and the sound has been a huge misfire and backfires in the exhaust or who knows what. The cylinder is super wet and it could be just fuel washdown. That can kill your oil and bearings as well. Measure the gap on that ring when you get the piston out. I would be intersted to know what it was. I think I broke rear pistons first even with a decent rear manifold. Might have to do with the staggered cams. I can't remember which one has more overlap. I also can't confirm which bank broke on my Duster at the moment but the motor is sitting in the shed (sans crankshaft). My friends tore off that head just to see the carnage. Ended up only being 1 broke piston and no spun bearings. It was knocking at the end of that 11.5 second video and was running on 5 cylinders, but it could be there is more damage that I did not find.

Intake valve relief is very large which is why it breaks there when the rings butt and grab against the cylinder. There is also more surface area on the piston in that spot so more heat can enter the ring right there.

Sundance 6g72
03-06-2012, 09:48 AM
i agree.

the pull where it hit 13afr was in 5th starting out really slow. it built to much boost to fast and hit an untuned part of the map. BAD IDEA with a wg that creeeps.

EWG, good manifold, bigger gap, and lay off the timing and this thing should be back to reliable like it had been. (or so i thought :P still need to make sure the cooling system is right. more on that later)

RoadWarrior222
03-06-2012, 09:59 AM
Oh well, nothing for it now then, custom 80 over forged slugs, rebore, stroker crank... ... :eyebrows:

Sundance 6g72
03-06-2012, 10:00 AM
yeah this motor is TOAST time to drop 4k on a Panorama block!

Sundance 6g72
03-06-2012, 03:07 PM
so bobby is sending me some factory 8.9:1 pistons W/ rods. cool

i cant express how happy i am

Sundance 6g72
03-15-2012, 09:59 AM
kinda got a problem here. Cyl bore is bad and needs to be bored out. Cant remember how bad it was but he said it was pretty scuffed and he didnt feel comfortable honing it and telling me that it would "work"

it has about twice as much wear as the other cyl is what im getting.. he woke me up when i got the call so i dont remember the exact numbers.

i dont like the idea of replacement pistons that arnt oem because they might not be as strong? am i right to think this way?

There is a block at the junkyard that gives me deals.. its in a van with a crushed oil pan. Im thinking i can score that motor for cheep.. maybe even just the block for even cheaper.

what do you guys think?

Sundance 6g72
03-15-2012, 10:09 AM
yeah i called the junkyard.. they want 125 still for the motor. and says they wont give me a deal on the one with the screed up oil pan

and i cant just get the block. so $125 gets me a second motor still... non of the motors there i really liked but they can prolly use oem pistons... i think oem pistons cost more than the block still.


called another yard who is usually --- holes but they sounded nice on the phone. asked him to get me a price on a 3.0 block, "just the block!". He said he would get back to me and was real polite about it.. we'll see how that goes.

c2xejk
03-15-2012, 11:48 AM
I would get the oversized pistons and have your existing block bored...

If you are having the shop assemble your engine (or just the bottom end) make sure they are aware that you are running the engine boosted so that they can gap the rings correctly.

Sundance 6g72
03-15-2012, 03:53 PM
im doing alll the assembly work, screw paying someone to do the easy stuff. hell, id machine it if i knew how and had the ability.

i got a new block for $50. Ill use the pistons and rods bobby gave me along with my crank.

new pistons cost way more than a new block did.

ooo and its a 99 block.. it had some sensor on the backside that looked to go into some freeze plug? its a 3 wire sensor.. not sure what its for?

ill be able to compare the pistons to my 8.9:1 pistons. Brent dosnt think they are higher compression (9.3:1 ?) and i think he checked a new block, ill double check with my block and confirm that.

i guess now i have a second block that can go into a future forged 3.1L build. maybe with a 3.5 forged crank if thats ever possible but im not worried about that right now. If this block is bad too then im going to be a sad panda and by then prolly give up and buy oversize pistons, i just worry about aftermarket cast pistons from some company building OE type pistons that were never meant to see boost and might be weaker than stock. Id get the 24valve pistons that i can get for $200 and say screw it.

RoadWarrior222
03-15-2012, 04:05 PM
Sure it's a sensor? Might be a block heater. does it look like you could plug a cord that goes to a laptop power pack in it? sort of o*o shape?

Sundance 6g72
03-15-2012, 04:17 PM
YES it does. i didnt look at it much but it kinda had that shape.

dosnt look like the block heater we put in my friends TDI though..

RoadWarrior222
03-15-2012, 04:21 PM
They're probably bigger for a diesel.

Sundance 6g72
03-15-2012, 04:23 PM
so what do i do with it? it just plugged into the block

ill get a picture later, i have to head to work

RoadWarrior222
03-15-2012, 04:29 PM
Well, back in the day, I had one cause sudden and potentially catastrophic loss of coolant, due to the bracket clamp on the back of it, that holds it in, rusted through, and let it pop out. It's clamped on by a bolt/screw through it. So if I were you I'd at least take it out and inspect it. Could put it back if it's good, and buy a cord for it for next winter, or get the machine shop to put a plug in if it's bad or you don't want it. Rust through in future, if solid now, would only be a problem if you're putting straight tap water in the coolant, instead of de-ionized or distilled, especially with no inhibitors as found in antifreeze or water wetter etc.

Mine went shortly after I got the van, so it was previous owner's fault.

Sundance 6g72
03-15-2012, 09:33 PM
i take a better look at it tomorrw. i have a pigtail harness for it but doubt ill use it. I let the car sit for 10min in the cold anyways and half the time i dont even use my heat

i saw some nice grean fluid in the block and heads so im sure the motor was taken care of. its a 99, kinda wish i bought the whole thing but i dont need 99 heads.

Sundance 6g72
03-16-2012, 12:43 AM
so the 99 block deff has different pistons with bigger ring gaps and a smaller oil ring (smaller hight)

all the gaps looked bigger to the naked eye compared to my 93 pistons. Both pistons seem to have the same height to them, makes me assume they are still 8.9:1

The 99 pistons have mitsubishi simbols on them and i think they have less material on them.. the bottom of them is kinda shaped differently. I dont think id feel comfortable using these pistons with boost.. BUT the ring gaps were bigger.

RoadWarrior222
03-16-2012, 06:03 AM
That sounds right for a '99, but by then they were also saying the compression ratio was a little higher, forget teh figure, no-one has ever confirmed it though.

Ondonti
03-16-2012, 06:16 AM
What year is your original motor? The newer EEK 3.0's are all mitsu symbol pistons with smaller ring gaps. (1994-1995 motors for example).
Your previous motor sounds like the older pistons have have a fuller skirt AND a larger top ringland (meaning with a big ring gap, it should be stronger then the newer pistons). My Holset has a 1995 motor with over 160k miles (except my Chrome rings). Mitsu pistons. My built motor used a 1994 block from the Spirit that had the same pistons. My 1997 junkyard motor had the same mitsu pistons. The only motor I had with the big ringlands and skirts came with the 1992 Duster but it was not an original motor (slider cams, old). I don't know what year the switchover was.

While aftermarket cast pistons can't be confirmed as being stronger/weaker then OEM cast pistons, oversize pistons will have more meat between the intake valve guide relief and the back of the Top ring groove. +40 would thus be stronger then +20 which is stronger then +0 in the same brand of piston.

Sundance 6g72
03-16-2012, 10:53 AM
origonal motor is a 93. I remember pulling them out and just taking a mental note of the ring gap. Then Bobby sent me an entire set of what he says are 8.9:1 pistons and rods. While cleaning them, the gaps on the rings looked the same as my origonal pistons so i didnt think anything of it.

I got the 2nd block (99 block) and i was like "wow these have bigger gaps". i didnt have to think about it, i just knew they were bigger. pulled a 93 piston from the origonal block out of its box and sure enough the gap on the 93 piston is smaller than the 99 piston.

the 93 piston looks to have more meat on it when looking at the bottom of them but the space between the top and middle ring is the same and so is the space between the top of the piston and the top ring. I can get pictures. One thing to note, the pistons bobby sent me and the pistons my 93 had do not have the mitsubishi symbol. from what i understand, bobbys and my 93 should be 8.9:1 comp.

the pistons bobby sent me looked identical to my 93 pistons in every way. if im not mistaken, his block was a 93 but i never asked him.


and yea, sadly we cant assume that aftermarket +40s are stronger than our oem.... which sucks because i dont wnat to assume they will handle power they wernt desined for. you couldnt blame them if they broke at 220wtq or hp or whatever. They are meant for 141crank hp. If i go aftermarket in the future, it would just be custom forged with like 11:1 compression and e90 and cams and all sorts of things i can dream about :{