keep me from smashing GLHS 174

[vipernbox]

Alright.... So I have been driving the damn car around for weeks off and on.. Put it up a CL for sale.. and have an interested buyer all set to show up tomorrow... So what the heck right? I'll use the car today to make sure everything is tip top...


then.. WTF... It is idling at 2200... Acts like a Vac leak.. but unless it is coming from the bottom of the intake... I can't find it.. I drove it around this way today finishing my errands and obligations... and other than the fast idle it seemed to run alright.... So... Tried locating with carb cleaner and couldn't find a leak. I even pulled the fuel rail to make sure an injector O ring wasn't jacked.. I busted out the vac pump and did a leakdown on my vac lines.. and no leaks could be found anywhere.. Then on to messing around with the AIS... yada yada yada... Even swapped to a known good Throttle body.. No dice...

During the process I used my finger to close off the AIS port on the TB... and could make it idle as I wanted... Closing the port all the way off would kill the car..

Busted out the factory diagnostic procedures manual.. Started testing all the AIS and TPS stuffs according to those instructions... No luck.. everything seemed fine..


Then playing around.. A gremlin came out of now where.. Now when the key is in the on position all the relays, and whatnot are freaking out.. clicking on and off.. Tack is wiggling around.. and this is where I left it.. No start.. just a bunch of freaking out..





I have a couple 87 LM's (the car is 87 converted... Been running Turbonator stage III) and every changing LM's or PM's didn't cause any change in symptoms.. Idled fast with a 2 bar map and stock T2 LM... and with the socketed one... Then when it decided to start... same deal.. Either LM netted same results..


So here I am.. Calling it a night without resolving my feelings towards the car.. I hate to go to bed angry... but damn.. Enough.


Of course the frign thing is going to act up now..


Hell.. the guy wanted to come this morning.. damn.. I should have let him and blew off taking the kids to a B day party.. it was running great (as usual) then.


:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[turbovanman²]

Check grounds, then redo them all, sounds like one has come loose or got rusty.

[Keito]

Check the speed sensor.

[moparman76_69]

Check grounds, then redo them all, sounds like one has come loose or got rusty.

This, any time the relays go nuts (at least for me) it ends up being a ground.

[cordes]

This, any time the relays go nuts (at least for me) it ends up being a ground.

I've only had one exception to that rule. I had an intermittent failure of an ignition switch cause the same symptoms and 6mo of on and off frustration. I couldn't track it down until it was more failed than not. Very frustrating as it gave the exact same symptoms as a bad major ground.

[vipernbox]

Alright... So i am in a better mood today.. Heck.. last night I had a few minutes to work on the mid engine project.. and I was all pumped up about it.. in fact in part while out in the GLHS I had picked up some MIG wire just for that purpose.. and instead, there I was working on the GLHS .. I have to thin the herd.. To many irons in the fire.. That car really had me worked up...

So now with a clear(er) head I am going to tackle this thing..


And oh.. BTW.. a set of powdered coated engine mounts goes to the first correct diagnosis of my problem...


Zin.. What makes you guess speed sensor... Oddly enough I forgot to mention the only code of the night was 15..(right when I came home, and never seen again. No codes at all after that..) and somewhere in the the middle of my fury I plugged the sensor back in, as it was unplugged...... Which now of course brings back bad memories.. Because one time this idiot managed to plug the fog light harness into the speed distance sensor on a GLH.. Fired two computers before figuring that one out... Damned car ran great until you turned the lights on... Idiot... First thing to try is unplugging that.. But I am really curious as to what made you mention it....


So off to test speed sensor and clean grounds... Instead of working on the Charger... :(


and damn... Just before it decided to freak out the sensors I was ready to pull the head and fix the intake gasket that probably isn't leaking..

[cordes]

The speed sensor being bad causes the LM cars to idle really high. I usually test that by using a custom cal with the staging limiter set to about 2500RPM. If the SDS is bad the computer will use the 2500RPM limit for everything and you won't be able to rev higher than that.

I'm sure you've checked the base idle? How about spraying down the AIS area in the TB to free up any gunk which could hinder its ability to close as the car warms up?

[vipernbox]

Ok... Frign bonehead (me) when putting the fuel rail back last night didn't tighten up the bolt which holds the.... wait for it.... GROUND.. fixing that corrected the relays freaking out.. and now she will start... and idle fast.. This of course leads me to believe there must be other grounds which need cleaned or corrected... So onto that...


It starts right up now.. but idles fast. I unplugged the SDS and that didn't create any changes.. Going to dig through some boxes now to find some SDS's...

While I got cha.. What is the preferred testing method? (I need some hand holding today to keep me sane.. sorry)


Oh and Yes.. I have cleaned the AIS and TB.. even tried swapping...


When doing the AIS actuator test (03) on my OTC4000E... What should happen? what should I be looking for..


(thinking out loud a bit if you don't mind)

[86seeS]

I had the ignition switch problem that cordes discribed in my 86 Z tach freaked out along with the dash lights

[turbovanman²]

Cycle the key on and off 3 times, this will reset the IAC. See if the idle comes down. You should be able to control the idle with the scanner.

[vipernbox]

In the run test mode on my scanner I couldn't adjust idle when it said I should be able to by pressing 0...

Plugged in a old SDS I had around ... and operating it with a drill.. and watching the dataline everything seemed normal.

Near as I can tell all the pins look good at the LM connectors..


Trying to figure out if somehow I jacked something up on the 86-87 swap.. and it is now just rearing its head.. but nothing is jumping out at me...

Swapped TB's back... and the one that was on there idles higher... but still the same deal. I can control idle with my finger in the AIS port.


Simon.. You are saying that the IAC system should reset by cycling the key.... So if I unplugged the AIS motor it should default to the high or low idle position?


I am about to just frign pull the head an see if I am just up against a intake manifold leak.. All this chasing my tail is killing me... Hopefully I will run into the problem during the process... :( Heck I dunno... I might really lose my mind if I didn't fine an inake mani leak...

[turbovanman²]

Simon.. You are saying that the IAC system should reset by cycling the key.... So if I unplugged the AIS motor it should default to the high or low idle position?


I am about to just frign pull the head an see if I am just up against a intake manifold leak.. All this chasing my tail is killing me... Hopefully I will run into the problem during the process... :( Heck I dunno... I might really lose my mind if I didn't find an intake mani leak...

Just leave it hooked up, cycle the key,.

[bakes]

Spray the intake and vac lines (all sides)with water mist and see if the idle drops down if not start to dianose the ais motor

[vipernbox]

Just leave it hooked up, cycle the key,.


Oh yeah.. BTDT to many times.. Even tried the ole pull a big vac line (brake booster) letting it idle even higher.. so the AIS will shut.. Then you can set base idle... and no luck... Just picks up speed and never come back down until vac lines are hooked back up.


Here is what the 1987 Diagnostic test procedure manual says to do... to test the AIS operation... (separte test for motor itsself tests good.. and motor is from a known running car)


Engine off.
disconnect AIS.
Connect Mutlimeter b/t 1 and 4 of AIS connector. (it is the outboard terminals)
set meter to AC voltage.

Put system in test mode 03..

Then check for voltage pulsating b/t 0 and 6 volts every 2 seconds..


Ok.. Passed that tested... Same procedure for the 2 and 3 terminals on the AIS connector...

Failed..


Ok.. The next test in the squence is checking for voltage at the Terminals at the LM...


The terminals which correspond to the 1/4 are 18 and 20 on the red connector at the LM.. Passed... the 2/3 terminals are 22 and 16 on the red connector.. Again.. No dice..


The solution listed... First check the the 16 and 22 connections making sure they are not crushed causing poor connection... Alright.. after typing this I am going to go out there one more time and pull the pins and check them out and clean them...

The other solution listed..


Replace the Logic module...



Already tried that.. Test nets the same result. same idle.. ect...


So I will pull pins and clean them one more time...


Triple check all the stuff that was moved for the 86-87 conversion... Then I dunno :( Not making me happy..

[audiomaninc]

Check continuity between 2/3 at the AIS and 22/16 at the LM. Figure out which wire is bunk, andust run a new wire from the LM to the AIS. Quick and easy fix for a wiring/connector error. Good luck!

[jckrieger]

If you smash the S I'll smash my R/T. I bet they've been equally frustrating.

Now, on to the potential solutions...

PCV valve stuck open? This can cause a big ol' vacuum leak. Also check the hose that goes to the PCV valve.

[moparman76_69]

Check continuity between 2/3 at the AIS and 22/16 at the LM. Figure out which wire is bunk, andust run a new wire from the LM to the AIS. Quick and easy fix for a wiring/connector error. Good luck!

This. If you've replaced the components at both ends then you have to have an issue in between.

[vipernbox]

This. If you've replaced the components at both ends then you have to have an issue in between.

You would think so... But the wires check out says my handy dandy multimeter... and the damned diagnostic procedure ends with "replace LM" :( damnit.. Already did that you F-ers..

I know have to be missing something right in front of my face.. but damnit.. I sure ain't seeing it..


PCV stuff and all vac lines not needed are properly plugged... Done the water and carb cleaner test... everything.. Only thing is a leak at the bottom of the manifold, as I can't really get to that to check really good for a leak... But having a diagnostic problem which ends with replace LM has stopped me from pulling the head.. Because... so help me God.. If I pulled the head and didn't find a problem.. I ain't sure the car would survive it right now... Stupid thing...


Arrrgggg...



Well back at it.. this SOB isn't going to kick my ---... well it might.. but at the end of the day I will win..

[moparman76_69]

If it idles down when you plug the AIS hole then a manifold leak isn't likely. You've tried a new AIS and throughly cleaned the sensor and the hole right?

[vipernbox]

If it idles down when you plug the AIS hole then a manifold leak isn't likely. You've tried a new AIS and throughly cleaned the sensor and the hole right?

Yep... even tried a couple throttle bodies.. They each had their own high idle.. but all high... couple hundred rm difference.. give or take from 2500rpm

[turbovanman²]

Sorry if I missed it, have you removed the AIS and plugged the hole, and did it idle or stall out?

[moparman76_69]

Have you just unplugged the AIS and seen if it idles down? what about the TPS?

[vipernbox]

Yes it will die if I plug the port with my fingerNo change unplugging the tps or the ais

[turbovanman²]

Yes it will die if I plug the port with my fingerNo change unplugging the tps or the ais

So this narrows it down to wiring, bad AIS or computer. Have you tried a stock computer? What does the scanner say the counts are for the AIS? How about CAT and TPS readings?

[cordes]

I test SDSs by testing for continuity between the two pins while rotating it. It should have continuity 8 times per revolution if I'm not mistaken.

[bakes]

when you hook up the scanner what is the vehicle speed when idling while stopped ???????

[vipernbox]

Yep.. SDS is reading stopped unless I spin it.. Operation seems normal as far as I can tell..

The wiring to and from the LM for the AIS all checks out ok.

Problem is the same with known working LM's.. and my go to LM works fine in another car.



I don't know how to look and see AIS counts.. I have an OTC4000E.. and nothing seems to pop up in the data line tests for that.. Doing the AIS test by the book shows the one of the circuits isn't doing its thing.. But the solution given is the wiring or the LM... and AAAHHHHH... frickn fracking frucking


TPS was reading 1.08 volts at idle, if you can call it idle.. Arrgg..


and CAT?



To much exhaust fumes maybe for me.. enough already.. I started pulling fuses inside the car to see if something was wacky.. and pulling 10 settled it down and then it died... Oh yeah.. 88 FSM for L body says that is the fuel pump...

I gota get something to drink.. Stupid car...

[bakes]

the AIS step should 7 -13 and what is the coolant sensor read for temp?

[turbovanman²]

Coolant temp? CAT is intake air temp.

You should see something for the AIS, it could be written as "steps", "idle counts", if its 0, the computer has it maxed out, if its reading under 30, then most likely the motor is bad. Have you tried a PM?

[vipernbox]

I have not looked at intake air temp.. The wiring to mine was kinda shifty.. so I fixed it.. but never bothered to check a reading.

I currently have a new AIS installed with no change. I have had two different TB's and probably 5 different AIS motors.. Nothing helps.


I tried a PM late last night when things were freaking out on me.. I didn't try one now that the car starts and runs again normally. I guess I should have done that.

[bakes]

A closed AIS = 0 idle is around 7 steps warm and 24 is about cold and 32 + is wide open

[vipernbox]

I am fairly certain The AIS has to be getting pulled wide open for whatever reason... and that wide open must be the AIS motors natural position. I have plugged the port and plugged in a known good AIS motor and have not seen it do a damned thing.


I will go out and check everything again here in a little while.. We will just go through sensor by sensor...


I think ya'll are probably right though the first time.. There must be a bad ground or connection somewhere not giving up juice to let the LM do its thing.. But F me.. I sure can't find it.. This thing is really making me crazy.


I may pull the head.. just to keep doing something.. and rule out a hidden mani leak (which I really don't think is there) The head gasket is of unknown age... and it ain't going to hurt anything..

[turbovanman²]

Do you have a pinout of the grounds?

Use a high beam headlight to check grounds, a simple multimeter doesn't cut it.

[vipernbox]

I have the pinouts.. I will try that.. Then OFF with its head. :(

[turbovanman²]

I doubt you have a vacuum leak, it you plug the AIS hole and it barely idles or stalls, then that's not your problem.

I don't know what you have access to but try to find someone with a known working stock LM and PM and rule those out once and for all IF the grounds check out.

What about the other scan data we asked for, :eyebrows:

[vipernbox]

I have tried known working LM's I have a couple.. The 87 CSX has even played test mule.. both checking the module from the GLHS in it.. and using the CSX module in the GLHS...


And I went through all the 86-87 converstion stuff last night.. all the colors match up as they are supposed to..




. This is the procedure the book pictured below shows for checking the computer ground circuits.


So in this book

37750

We have this process..

37751


Now.. For kicks Pin location 24 is the Knock sensor.. and 7 and 8 on the red connector are "ignition "start"/"run" feed from PM (J2)"



So checking with my Didgital Multimeter set to ohms.. b/t pins 7 and 8 it reads 5.3 something...


and 24.. The knock sensor... Nada.. nothing.. Well.. the wire to the sensor checks out.. but the sensor to the ground doesn't.



So help me understand this test? Am I reading a typo? EVery pinout I have... 86 0r 87.. T1/T2.. all of them use this pin as det/knock sensor...


WTF?

[moparman76_69]

Use a high beam headlight to check grounds, a simple multimeter doesn't cut it.

Is that a Canadian redneck test light or something?

[turbovanman²]

Your only checking the LM and PM grounds. Get a high beam sealed headlight, use the high beam, more amperage, hook one side to power, leave the other side loose, disconnect the LM and PM connectors, note the grounds, now use the other end of the bulb and check the grounds, if the headlight is bright, ie the same as checking the battery, your grounds are verifed and if you feel better, leave the light hooked up and wiggle the harness, engine etc. You can reverse the headlight to check the quality of the power feeds.

Don't worry about checking the sensor ground as its obviously ok.

I asked more questions in my last post.

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------


Is that a Canadian redneck test light or something?

Nope, I was taught that years ago by a ace electrical diagnostic technician, see my last post to him. I've found many a marginal ground using this trick. A multimeter doesn't pull any amperage so its only good to check for a broken wire, using the headlight your pulling 15-20 amps, it WILL find a bad ground.

[vipernbox]

What I am thinking is the book mixed the blue and red connectors.. as 7 and 8 on the blue are "power ground source from fuel rail" and 24 on the red is "signal from fuel rail bolt" and 25 is "signal ground to sensors"


So it says here anyway...

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/ecu/index.html

Which basically matches whatever I can find in any FSM...


So lets go try the test this way....

[turbovanman²]

Don't test 25.

[vipernbox]

opps... Why not 25?


Just checked the others listed above.. All less then half an ohm... and pass the headlight test.

---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

Going to look now to see if I can't figure out how to get the OTC to put out AIS steps... But with the car running and a known good AIS out in the open... it doesn't do anything.. So...


And will check out the Charge temp sensor.

[roachjuice]

I bet there is a loose wire on the red or blue connector on the lm. Happened to me. My car would act retarded. Can't remember what wire it was. It would die. Idle high. Throw random --- codes that didn't belong on the lm. Yea.

[vipernbox]

I bet there is a loose wire on the red or blue connector on the lm. Happened to me. My car would act retarded. Can't remember what wire it was. It would die. Idle high. Throw random --- codes that didn't belong on the lm. Yea.


As much as I have plugged and unplugged the damn things at this point it sure wouldn't surprise me.. but near as I can tell everything looks fine.. I haven't gone pin by pin pulling things...



But damn...



In the back of my mind.. When I did the 86-87 swap.. I used a EGR wire.. and the shift light wire to power/signal the MAP.. I have traced them and didn't see any other odd connections.. which might be doing weird chit.. I have tried grounding the MAP several places and it changes nothing.. Maybe I will look over all that one more time.. :mad:

Not throwing any codes other than stuff I unplug.. and those reset normally.

[turbovanman²]

opps... Why not 25?


Just checked the others listed above.. All less then half an ohm... and pass the headlight test.

---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

Going to look now to see if I can't figure out how to get the OTC to put out AIS steps... But with the car running and a known good AIS out in the open... it doesn't do anything.. So...


And will check out the Charge temp sensor.

Because your putting power to the sensors, so some don't like it.

[vipernbox]

Well... I don't think it hurt anything... Charge temp running was reading 65degrees.. bat temp 54 degrees... coolant temp made it to the 90's and rising normally.. and coolant circuitry passed the book tests... All sensors I could read looked normal to me. and by the book they test normal.. (unless I am having one of my moments which is VERY possible)


But... Something interesting... My spare Speed distance sensor... I can spin it and bring the Rpm up... from 2500 to 2700 ish.. Unplugging does nothing.. it seems to read normally watching the dataline test.


I can't seem to get to the run tests.. on my OTC in fact.. the battery was a bit low.. and cranking the engine to try and start the test locked up my OTC.. So added the battery charger.. and got to the run tests..(to get to the test you have to select deluxe CDR.. Cycle key to get codes.. then puts you through to the sensor/ATM tests/run tests.. select run tests.. then it prompts you to start the car.) but it won't let me do any of them, or I don't know how.. Never had a problem with SMEC stuff.. but it is only giving me the option to press 0 to alter rpm.. which doesn't do a damn thing..


It really seems VERY unlikely there is a manifold leak, given that I can kill it by blocking the AIS..... But I have no idea what else to try...



Oh... I did get the first code I didn't set intentionally though.. 35.. radiator fan relay.. but I may have.. uuhh..

[vipernbox]

Ok... I think ya'll let me down.. I'll know for sure in a minute... But I was headed out to the shop tonight all ready to pull the head.. Cleaned up the junk around the car and got to thinking.. Maybe I should take out the +20's and put in some stock T2 injectors and give the CSX MP Stage 2 LM another shot at it...


then I got to thinking it had been awhile before I had even checked the Fuel pressure on this one.. Honestly I can't remember the last time..

So I pop the gauge on and start the car... Idling normal.. but running pig rich.. Oh yeah... The vac lines are disconnected... Heck the Fuel rail isn't even all the way seated at this point.. So I quickly fix that stuff... Shut off the car and try again.

I'll be damned.. With the Fuel pressure regulator plugged in I get a high idle and seemingly normal rich/lean condition.. and a fluttering 45 psi on the gauge.. Unplug the FPR... idles drops and the car goes pig rich... The FP gauge fluttering at about 55 psi...



So now I am headed back out to figure out the fluttering Fuel pressure... and yeah.. Uhh...


Told you I was an idiot...


So can ya'll 'fix' this before I can, and redeem yourselves with the new information I have provided. (weird how a guy could get excited over finding something that might actually be broke).. :)





(just kidding..)

[cordes]

Well, at least you have it figured out now. Nice work.

[vipernbox]

Well, at least you have it figured out now. Nice work.

Well.. Not yet... Burning a couple cals on a chip to try out on the fourplay..


And oddly enough... With the FPR unplugged... it idles down and runs pig rich .. Plugging the open vac line with my finger... oddly enough raises the idle...


but hey... Not solved yet.. but at least these are symptoms I can work with.

[turbovanman²]

Not sure how bad fuel pressure can cause a high idle? :confused:

Does the FPR vac line smell of gas, it could be leaking. Fluttering fuel pressure is the FPR, plugged fuel filter or bad pump.

[moparman76_69]

I vote bad FPR, it's leaking and causing fuel to enter the engine which causes it to idle up. When you plug the AIS hole it goes too rich and dies.

[vipernbox]

Ok.. So here is what I now know..

Swapped the FPR just because with a known good one and I don't think it changed anything.. But...

I think unplugging the FPR and leaving the vac lin open was enough of a leak to screw with map readings.. Causing the Overly rich condition.. Plugging the line with my finger allowed it to pick back up... didn't have OTC hooked up to see exactly.


Now.. I just tried the CSX LM again.. used a 2 bar map.. and left the +20's.. again the LM is a MP Stage 2 unit...

And guess what.. The frign thing seems to run normal.. Unplugging the FPR without first pinching the line will kill it.. but yeah.. It has to be running rich.. I assume..


So there ya go.. Somewhere in the cleaning grounds and connections I must have fixed something.. because it didn't like that computer last night...

Or maybe I am wiggling something in the injector harness?


I'll be damned though..


anybody have a BIN for a 3 bar + 20 cal.. 16-17 Psi or so? Going to socket one of the 87 T1 LM's I have around.. and I want to make sure I ain't screwing something up with Rob's Turbonator stage III cal?

[vipernbox]

Ok... Check that about the turbonator acting up... put the 3 bar back on.. and tried the Turbonator Stage III... Seems to idle just a teeny bit off (SLOW) but I am sure my adventures into ultra rich land have not done the plugs any good...



So... I ain't 100% sure what I fixed.. if anything.. Thinking I need to really give the injector harness a once over.. Or maybe the FPR.. I sure could get the old one to leak on the bench.. and the new one didn't fix the flutter.. So...


What the heck.. Need to get some belts back on and go for a drive...

[turbovanman²]

Well you fixed the missing ground, and most likely replaced a bad FPR. The stage II will be rich with +20's.

[moparman76_69]

I have seen an injector harness be the cause of much aggravation.

[vipernbox]

:thumb::D

Alright.. So I don't know exactly what fixed it.. I plan on trying the old FPR back on there just because I want to see if that was the problem or not.. But I guess despite my best efforts something was screwy in the injector harness.. No idea what.. or how I missed it.. because all I did was clean it up..(and yes simon I had cleaned the ground long ago..) But dang... something fixed it.. So I plan on spending a few minute tomorrow trying to make the problem come back for just a second.. But. yeah.. uhh...


Finally.. a test drive...


And even with some fluttering in the boost gauge.. b/t 14-17 psi.. It is really easy to remember why these cars are so much fun.. For all basically stock parts.. Just a 2.5 glasspack.. and more boost.. Oh what fun.. HEHEHE... The turbnator Stage three.. without further tuning, well, it seems to run pretty strong..


Soaking the wastegate solenoid in PB blaster for the night.. and will check the rest of that out tomorrow..


Oh.. and I apologized to the car.. I sure said a lot of mean things to it over the last couple days.. and it wasn't very nice of me...

:)

[turbovanman²]

Oh.. and I apologized to the car.. I sure said a lot of mean things to it over the last couple days.. and it wasn't very nice of me...

:)

My vans heard worse, lol.

[vipernbox]

Hehe...


I doubt it... I spent enough time in the Marine Corps.. and married a Marine.. Trust me.. Part of the car not running right i am sure had to do with its ears bleeding from my joyful banter.

;)

[trannybuster]

My bet is on LM, loose something, eeprom, wire etc...had same issues with my 's'....luckily it did it on large bumps, well every frkin bump feels large in that thing, so it told me just loose something.

[vipernbox]

SOLD!!!

Heck I even tried to disclose everything I knew.. I don't think I said to many, if any nice things about the car at all... And I guess it is hard to not fall in love with an 86 GLHS..


really kinda sad to see it go..

I told him about the forum.. Hopefully he will drop in..

[trannybuster]

^^Or you could fix it that way..lol...

[vipernbox]

:)

I sure hope not..

Talking to him yesterday he was already looking for restoration parts and stuff..

Sounds like he has plans to make it pretty nice... I hope it works out for him.