So close to getting her running... but she just won't go!

[beeblebrox82]

Sorry if this is the wrong section for this, and I hate to make yet another thread like this... but I need the help from the gurus on getting this build going.

Details:

87 daytona with complete 88 wiring (engine and dash) upgrade)
89 2.5L CB with all the T2 fixins
Engine just dropped in trying to get the thing running
new 93 octane gas.
getting fuel to all 4 cylinders (plugs soaked after turning over for a bit)
Checked for spark at the distributor from the coil (good)
Cranking over very strong and consistently
Same symptoms on two completely different distributor/wires sets.
Plugs gaped to spec, not new plugs, but they are clean.

When the flywheel is at TDC the I-shaft is parallel to the block and the notch on the cam is in the window. So hard to tell on the cam, can't look straight in the darned map is in the way. I could see it maybe being one tooth off, toward the front of the car, but honestly, I think it's right on.

When I crank I almost immediately get one to three fires, (usually two) then no more. If I stop cranking and then restart It will fire a few times again, if I keep cranking I never get another one.

I've had the distributor on and off several times, and pulled the cap to verify the rotor is pointing at cyl one when everything else is TDC.... I can't make it do anything different.



Any idea where I should look next? Thanks guys. So close to having this thing running!!

[5DIGITS]

Have you confirmed that the rotor points to the #1 plug wire when the #1 cylinder is at TDC, with both valves closed?

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

It is easy to have the ignition timing AND/OR the cam timing 180 degrees off.
When you key up, there is a primer injection shot that is fired regardless of valve and piston position.
This is enough fuel to trigger popping but subsequent crank fueling/spark will be off time if the cam or distributor are not properly positioned.

[beeblebrox82]

Have you confirmed that the rotor points to the #1 plug wire when the #1 cylinder is at TDC, with both valves closed?

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

It is easy to have the ignition timing AND/OR the cam timing 180 degrees off.
When you key up, there is a primer injection shot that is fired regardless of valve and piston position.
This is enough fuel to trigger popping but subsequent crank fueling/spark will be off time if the cam or distributor are not properly positioned.

Cam notch is up (in the timing window) when the crank is at TDC, rotor is pointed at cylinder one. With all those conditions met is it possible to still have something upside down?

[135sohc]

Use a mirror to verify the cam timing is right.

[5DIGITS]

Verify that the #1 piston is at TDC, with the spark plug removed.
The cam notch your referring to is the oval hole, correct?
With a harness change, are all of the ground wire lugs and braided ground straps in place?
Are there any fault codes?

[turbovanman²]

^^^^^^^^^What he said, verify #1, which is closest to the timing belt, is actually at TDC, there can be a few marks on the flywheel and this can throw you off. I use a long philips screwdriver in the plug hole or use a small powerful flashlight, turn over by hand ONLY.

[beeblebrox82]

Verify that the #1 piston is at TDC, with the spark plug removed.
The cam notch your referring to is the oval hole, correct?
With a harness change, are all of the ground wire lugs and braided ground straps in place?
Are there any fault codes?

Cam notch is the oval hole yes, when that is up that signifies that the cams are set for the cyl 1 compression stroke right? I have the main head ground, trans ground, ground off the intake and the motor mount ground on... I'll double check those though.


^^^^^^^^^What he said, verify #1, which is closest to the timing belt, is actually at TDC, there can be a few marks on the flywheel and this can throw you off. I use a long philips screwdriver in the plug hole or use a small powerful flashlight, turn over by hand ONLY.

I have to believe it's timing related, I will check it this way tonight. Thanks!

[4 l-bodies]

Use a mirror to verify the cam timing is right.
+1 on this. Since the fenderline is in the way of seeing this correctly, another way to check this is to put your digital camera there and zoom in on this area. If you have a camera that has a display that pivots you can then easily check what you are trying to see. Snap a pic and post if still in doubt. Again make sure that rotor is pointing to #1 at TDC. As 5digits said earlier you can be 180° off if rotor is pointing to #4 at TDC instead of #1.
Todd

[moparman76_69]

There are multiple marks on the flywheel. My guess is you used the wrong one. Did you verify that the dot on the crank pulley and the I-shaft are pointing at each other?

[bfarroo]

Also the notch isn't necessarily straight up as the motor is installed at an angle. I like to look that the arrows on the cam gear are aligned with the cam cap parting lines. With the #1 at TDC and the rotor pointing at #1 your marks on the intermediate shaft and crank should line up although this all depends on the oil pump install. It's really easy to get the oil pump in off a tooth.

[beeblebrox82]

I did line everything up per factory specs on the timing belt when it went together originally. All the dashes, dots, notches and parting lines were matched up as specified. :p I will check them again tonight very carefully.

[beeblebrox82]

Ok, so I couldn't get a ton done tonight but I was able to check timing, take a look. Found TDC in cylinder 1 (timing belt side) with a screw driver and tweaked it in as close as I could get it watching the end move:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/beeblebrox82/Daytona/KalamazooCity-20120220-00035.jpg

looks dead nuts to me

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/beeblebrox82/Daytona/KalamazooCity-20120220-00038.jpg

Honestly hard to tweak in with the screw driver I landed about -1 to 4 degrees on several attempts. The last time it landed right there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/beeblebrox82/Daytona/Holland-20120220-00040.jpg

aimed at Cyl 1.



So we can rule out timing yes?

Tomorrow I'll pick up a spark tester and rent a fuel pressure gauge, and maybe a compression tester. Seems like the cylinders are getting quite a bath in fuel, so I'm thinking at this point it's electrical. Thoughts?

[turbovanman²]

Looks good but do yourself a favour, replace those wires, and rotor, maybe the cap if the carbon button is damaged or missing. That rotor does NOT look healthy.

Ok, I just reread your first post, did you actually check for spark at the plugs? Based on the rotor condition, I would bet your not getting spark at the plugs. On that note, change the plugs, after they get fuel soaked, it can damaged them.

Do you have access to a scanner? Any codes?

So you converted to a SMEC, did you do this with the new engine or did it all at once?

IF this is a new engine, you've probably ruined the rings at this point, :(

[5DIGITS]

It appears to be in order and good job checking the grounds.
I mentioned fault codes a bit earlier, has this been checked?
A poor connection at the distributor connectors or faulty pick-up plate may store a fault during cranking, if there is a problem.
Also, some of the ignition parts look to be a bit tired - have you removed a plug and checked for spark at the spark plug?

Quick test:
With all the fuel thats showing on the plugs, push the throttle to the floor before you key up and crank the engine.
This will not permit the initial "prime shot" and no fuel will be delivered during cranking.

[beeblebrox82]

Looks good but do yourself a favour, replace those wires, and rotor, maybe the cap if the carbon button is damaged or missing. That rotor does NOT look healthy.

Ok, I just reread your first post, did you actually check for spark at the plugs? Based on the rotor condition, I would bet your not getting spark at the plugs. On that note, change the plugs, after they get fuel soaked, it can damaged them.

Do you have access to a scanner? Any codes?

So you converted to a SMEC, did you do this with the new engine or did it all at once?

IF this is a new engine, you've probably ruined the rings at this point, :(

It's an 89 CB that I've not ran, but it's not a fresh rebuild. The engine has miles on it. As far as a new rotor and cap, I was also working with an entirely different distributor/wires, with the same result. Seems unlikely that both are bad, but I don't have a problem replacing it all. Am I wasting my time with autozone parts? I've not checked the spark at the plugs as I haven't had a second hand the last couple days. Perhaps I can get my kid to turn the key for me tomorrow.



It appears to be in order and good job checking the grounds.
I mentioned fault codes a bit earlier, has this been checked?
A poor connection at the distributor connectors or faulty pick-up plate may store a fault during cranking, if there is a problem.
Also, some of the ignition parts look to be a bit tired - have you removed a plug and checked for spark at the spark plug?

Quick test:
With all the fuel thats showing on the plugs, push the throttle to the floor before you key up and crank the engine.
This will not permit the initial "prime shot" and no fuel will be delivered during cranking.

no codes, well.. just code 12. I did check and clean up the grounds. Reading less than .5 mOhms around the grounds. Going from the head/TB etc to the negative battery cable is reading about .1 Ohm max.

[turbovanman²]

It's an 89 CB that I've not ran, but it's not a fresh rebuild. The engine has miles on it. As far as a new rotor and cap, I was also working with an entirely different distributor/wires, with the same result. Seems unlikely that both are bad, but I don't have a problem replacing it all. Am I wasting my time with autozone parts? I've not checked the spark at the plugs as I haven't had a second hand the last couple days. Perhaps I can get my kid to turn the key for me tomorrow. .

Nothing wrong with Autozone tune-up stuff, except I only recommend my wires, hehe.

Plugs, change them, just get some Champions or equivelant.

Too check spark, simply remove a ground strap off one and make sure the base is grounded, it should jump to ground-check this at the coil wire and plug wires.

Air/blow out the cylinders, new plugs and see what happens, IF you have spark.

Do you have a scanner? Maybe try a new coolant sensor if you don't have access to a scanner.

[beeblebrox82]

no scanner :( I'm gonna grab an ignition tester tomorrow when I'm picking up the other stuff, cheap, and a little more formal. I've got 3 sets of wires kicking around, so I'll find a good set while testing tomorrow. I'd rather buy a good set later than yet another cheap set now. Got to get another 5 gallons of supertech from walmart and do a quick oil change too, I didn't like the look of the oil from all the gas I've been dumping into it. Got to love a zero mile oil change lol.


Thanks for all the help guys.

[turbovanman²]

You not answering questions, :mad: ;)

Did you convert over now or before and all you did this time was install a new engine?

[5DIGITS]

Quick test:
You may want to try this.
With all the fuel that it's showing on the plugs, push the throttle to the floor before you key up and crank the engine.
This will not permit the initial "prime shot" and no fuel will be delivered during cranking.

[turbovanman²]

Just thought of something, does the dizzy have the hole in one of the shutters?

[5DIGITS]

Just thought of something, does the dizzy have the hole in one of the shutters?
Great point - I was hoping to get to that after requesting a few more photos.
It may not know where #1 is but I would also hope it would trip a code, for that very reason.
Again, great point.

[black86glhs]

Yes, he did answer that question. Actually read his posts, stop scanning them. :rolleyes:

[Juggy]

if the timing is good, i would believe there to be an issue with the HEP.

sounds like 1/2 the HEP is dead....the ignition side!!

[5DIGITS]

Yes, he did answer that question. Actually read his posts, stop scanning them. :rolleyes:
I see references to the cam pulley hole and locating the number one position, relative to the rotor, but no references to the removing the pick-up plate and inspecting the distributor vanes.
Where is this mentioned?

Thanks in advance.

[turbovanman²]

Yes, he did answer that question. Actually read his posts, stop scanning them. :rolleyes:

Errr, blow me, and maybe add something useful, ;)

I just reread, NO MENTION of the shutter window, so right back atcha pizza boy, :eyebrows:

[beeblebrox82]

You not answering questions, :mad: ;)

Did you convert over now or before and all you did this time was install a new engine?

Sorry misunderstood your question, SMEC conversion and new engine went in simultaneously... So the car has never run on this wiring, nor have I ever run the motor on the old wiring. (But the engine is not a fresh rebuild.)



Just thought of something, does the dizzy have the hole in one of the shutters?

say what now?


if the timing is good, i would believe there to be an issue with the HEP.

sounds like 1/2 the HEP is dead....the ignition side!!

I will check the HEP as I go through the electrics tonight.


I see references to the cam pulley hole and locating the number one position, relative to the rotor, but no references to the removing the pick-up plate and inspecting the distributor vanes.
Where is this mentioned?

Thanks in advance.

say what now again? What should I be looking for here?

[Force Fed Mopar]

You didn't use a TBI distributor housing did you you? If you did it won't run, or at least I'm pretty sure it won't. Does sound like a HEP issue. I am assuming you moved the distributor around a bit? Theoretically it should start at 0 deg, but you may have to advance it a bit off the bat to get it to start. Did you have some one turn it over while you watched the spark? Could be a bad coil possibly, it might spark once on the first turn then get weaker or not work.

[beeblebrox82]

You didn't use a TBI distributor housing did you you? If you did it won't run, or at least I'm pretty sure it won't. Does sound like a HEP issue. I am assuming you moved the distributor around a bit? Theoretically it should start at 0 deg, but you may have to advance it a bit off the bat to get it to start. Did you have some one turn it over while you watched the spark? Could be a bad coil possibly, it might spark once on the first turn then get weaker or not work.


Honestly I've got parts everywhere, The two distributors I've used both had the dual HEP connectors. I've got another one with only one and one with none. :confused: I should not own a TBI distributor, all the motors and parts I've gotten were from turbo cars, but most of my extras came with the donortona, so goodness knows where it all came from. Is there a discernible difference? Shame on my for using suspect parts. I'm going to replace most of this with new tonight, and then do spark checks through the whole system.

[turbovanman²]

Look at the dizzy vanes, the ones the HEP sits on, one of them should have a square hole in it. It needs this signal to fire everything correctly. It should set a code but you never know.

Ok, well if you just did everything at once, its possible you messed up the wiring when converting.

I would see if you can borrow a scanner, you should be getting codes 12 and 55 when checking them.

[5DIGITS]

Honestly I've got parts everywhere, The two distributors I've used both had the dual HEP connectors. I've got another one with only one and one with none. :confused: I should not own a TBI distributor, all the motors and parts I've gotten were from turbo cars, but most of my extras came with the donortona, so goodness knows where it all came from. Is there a discernible difference? Shame on my for using suspect parts. I'm going to replace most of this with new tonight, and then do spark checks through the whole system.

We we're just getting to the distributor vanes a few posts back and the differences between the TBI and turbo.
If you remove the distributor cap, rotor, and pickup you'll see a four vane assembly and one of the vanes should have a hole in the middle of it.
If you don't, then it's a TBI distributor and you'll need to find one that has a hole in one vane and install it.
This is used to identify the number one cylinder and synchronize the the ignition and injection timing on the turbo/sequential fuel injection engines.

[pauly_no_van]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/beeblebrox82/Daytona/Holland-20120220-00040.jpg

aimed at Cyl 1.



Hi That rotor is past #1 plug wire by 1 IM Shaft gear tooth if rest of motor in that photo is lined-up FWIW.
The other thing that still gets me almost every time is camchaft being + or - 1 tooth.
hope its going well...

[beeblebrox82]

Look at the dizzy vanes, the ones the HEP sits on, one of them should have a square hole in it. It needs this signal to fire everything correctly. It should set a code but you never know.

Ok, well if you just did everything at once, its possible you messed up the wiring when converting.

I would see if you can borrow a scanner, you should be getting codes 12 and 55 when checking them.

Roger that, I will check. I did get 12 and 55 doing the key dance. I'll start at the distributor and work my way back, it's entirely possible I have a short or some other issue somewhere, went from a bare engine bay to a full one with 100% untested parts, I knew 6 months ago this thread was coming. :nod:

Thanks again!!

[turbovanman²]

Roger that, I will check. I did get 12 and 55 doing the key dance. I'll start at the distributor and work my way back, it's entirely possible I have a short or some other issue somewhere, went from a bare engine bay to a full one with 100% untested parts, I knew 6 months ago this thread was coming. :nod:

Thanks again!!

Sounds good, and of course, let us know, :banghead: :lol:

[beeblebrox82]

We we're just getting to the distributor vanes a few posts back and the differences between the TBI and turbo.
If you remove the distributor cap, rotor, and pickup you'll see a four vane assembly and one of the vanes should have a hole in the middle of it.
If you don't, then it's a TBI distributor and you'll need to find one that has a hole in one vane and install it.
This is used to identify the number one cylinder and synchronize the the ignition and injection timing on the turbo/sequential fuel injection engines.

Perfect. I'll take a look!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/beeblebrox82/Daytona/Holland-20120220-00040.jpg

aimed at Cyl 1.



Hi That rotor is past #1 plug wire by 1 IM Shaft gear tooth if rest of motor in that photo is lined-up FWIW.
The other thing that still gets me almost every time is camchaft being + or - 1 tooth.
hope its going well...

You know, I didn't pull it back off to see if it was still perfectly parallel to the block last night :banghead:. I'll take a look at that too. Outside of being a savant, how can you tell? should it be lined up with the raised mark on the HEP there?

[turbovanman²]

Perfect. I'll take a look!



You know, I didn't pull it back off to see if it was still perfectly parallel to the block last night :banghead:. I'll take a look at that too. Outside of being a savant, how can you tell? should it be lined up with the raised mark on the HEP there?

If the line is parallel, then you have it right, or you could mark the housing where #1 sits, then when you remove the cap, you'll be able to see where the rotor sits.

[Orangetona]

+1 on this. Since the fenderline is in the way of seeing this correctly, another way to check this is to put your digital camera there and zoom in on this area. If you have a camera that has a display that pivots you can then easily check what you are trying to see. Snap a pic and post if still in doubt. Again make sure that rotor is pointing to #1 at TDC. As 5digits said earlier you can be 180° off if rotor is pointing to #4 at TDC instead of #1.
Todd

I actually did that with my little flip hd camera and it worked great. Haha

[pauly_no_van]

You know, I didn't pull it back off to see if it was still perfectly parallel to the block last night :banghead:. I'll take a look at that too. Outside of being a savant, how can you tell? should it be lined up with the raised mark on the HEP there?[/QUOTE]

That's IDIOT savant :P
Because I have been there and seen it a million times, that rotor is advanced a tooth ahaed if all your other marks are lined-up. You can just turn the whole
dizzy clockwise to line it up/time it though.

[beeblebrox82]

coming to you live from the garage!!

The I shaft is notch is perfectly parallel with the block, both dizzys I was using have the windows. Moving on! :amen:

[beeblebrox82]

Ok. changed the oil and dropped a strawfull of oil onto the rings through the plug holes to try save my rings. The oil was pretty bad already. :yuck: I hope I didn't do any real damage. to new cap and rotor, with the help of my 4 year old (poor guy can hardly turn the key) I checked spark at the end of the coil cable, seemed consistent, but I could only pull it away from the ground about 3/8 of an inch. Put the ignition tester on the plug wires, 1st one good at 25KV, 2nd one nothing (the second time I got poked too, I think through the frame) 3rd it fired once, but again, nothing, 4th nothing, back to 1st nothing. Went back to the coil again and let it run longer and noticed it seemed to be skipping every now and then, still couldn't pull it further away from 2 different grounds.


so... bad coil?

[beeblebrox82]

also, since it's a new cap, and rotor, checked the wires, 3 are consistently at 4 Kohm no matter how I move them, the 4th stuck at about 3.6. So seems the wires are ok.

[turbovanman²]

It could be a bad coil or bad HEP, or a wiring issue. Are you getting battery voltage to the coil + at all times during cranking?

[moparman76_69]

Are you sure the injectors are firing after the inital prime shot?

[black86glhs]

I see references to the cam pulley hole and locating the number one position, relative to the rotor, but no references to the removing the pick-up plate and inspecting the distributor vanes.
Where is this mentioned?

Thanks in advance.

It wasn't directed towards you, it was to Simon and he recognized it, too....lol.
And, Mr I can't spool at the track, I said he answered that question, not questions.
Mmmmm, pizza.:D

[beeblebrox82]

It could be a bad coil or bad HEP, or a wiring issue. Are you getting battery voltage to the coil + at all times during cranking?

constant 12v with the ASD relay actuated
constant 10.9V with the car cranking
Flickering -coil while cranking.


Are you sure the injectors are firing after the inital prime shot?

not sure, there was ALOT of gas in the oil, doesn't seem like fueling is the issue. I was unable to rent a fuel pressure tester today. (out of stock)


So everything seems to check out... but I wasn't getting consistant spark at the tester. Perhaps my ground was no good? Perhaps my grounds in general are no good... It's cranking over strong and consistently though....

[moparman76_69]

Get a Noid light and verify the injectors are firing.

[turbovanman²]

It wasn't directed towards you, it was to Simon and he recognized it, too....lol.
And, Mr I can't spool at the track, I said he answered that question, not questions.
Mmmmm, pizza.:D

No, it wasn't answered or asked, ;)


constant 12v with the ASD relay actuated
constant 10.9V with the car cranking
Flickering -coil while cranking.



not sure, there was ALOT of gas in the oil, doesn't seem like fueling is the issue. I was unable to rent a fuel pressure tester today. (out of stock)


So everything seems to check out... but I wasn't getting consistant spark at the tester. Perhaps my ground was no good? Perhaps my grounds in general are no good... It's cranking over strong and consistently though....

What kind of spark tester?


Get a Noid light and verify the injectors are firing.

+2.

[moparman76_69]

Didn't some of the years have different injector harness wiring? Maybe you have a injector harness that doesn't match your engine harnesses wiring and its causing the injectors to stay open and flood the engine.

[turbovanman²]

Didn't some of the years have different injector harness wiring? Maybe you have a injector harness that doesn't match your engine harnesses wiring and its causing the injectors to stay open and flood the engine.

All SMEC are the same, and you can't plug a SBEC harness in, different connector.

[beeblebrox82]

No, it wasn't answered or asked, ;)



What kind of spark tester?



+2.

From the zone:

37758


had it set at 25.

[beeblebrox82]

Can I kill a few birds with one stone and pull the rail off and let the injectors dump in to some cups?

[black86glhs]

No, it wasn't answered or asked, ;)Anyone have a Simon decoder ring?:D

[turbovanman²]

From the zone:

37758


had it set at 25.

Back it down, 25 is too much, try 15-20 and go from there.


Can I kill a few birds with one stone and pull the rail off and let the injectors dump in to some cups?

Sure you can, been there, done that, JUST make sure you run a jumper wire to the fuel rail ground.

Anyone have a Simon decoder ring?:D

Less typing, more eating. :p

[Force Fed Mopar]

Sounds like a weak coil.

[beeblebrox82]

So I put it back together and figured I'd give it a quick go before I tore the fuel side apart... pretty much the same results, a few puffs, but nothing... total crank time was maybe 30 seconds across 6-7 different tries.

Pulled the plugs out fouled... look into the plug holes... I see gas... I folded up a piece of paper stuck it in quick until it hit the cylinder and then pulled it right back out... each cylinder had at least 1/4" of standing fuel in it. Holy ----! So the injectors are just blasting the cylinders continuously.

A. what would cause this?

B. Total crank time through this whole process has been... maybe 5 minutes... hard to gauge.... all the electrical tinkering yesterday was done on new oil, and I dropped a little oil in through the top, hopefully onto the rings before we started going.... but seriously... how much damage to the rings/bores have I done here?




is the injector harness on a 87 T2 the same as the injector harness on an 88 T2? ......because I didn't change it....

[bakes]

I just like a little more info on the set up
1 injector size
2 fuel presure
3 2 or 3bar map
4 what Cal and what injectors and map set up for?

[beeblebrox82]

I just like a little more info on the set up
1 injector size
2 fuel presure
3 2 or 3bar map
4 what Cal and what injectors and map set up for?

1. stock TII
2. Do not know, will getting my hands a gauge tomorrow, stock FPR.
3. Stock as far as know
4. Stock TII SMEC.... I should crack it open just to be sure.

[moparman76_69]

Sounds like the injectors are staying open to me. Even if it doesn't start it shouldn't flood the engine that quickly. The only way to see if you've hurt the rings is to do a compression test and a leakdown test.

[thewraith1971]

i got some 804 injectors and another injector harness here off 88 t2 if you need them?

[bakes]

Sounds like the injectors are staying open to me. Even if it doesn't start it shouldn't flood the engine that quickly. The only way to see if you've hurt the rings is to do a compression test and a leakdown test.

That what im starting to think here . I 'd pull the rail from the intake and flip it to see what they are doing during prime and crank.

[RoadWarrior222]

Coulda been a one off from the lifters not pumping until crank speed was up... i.e. getting a bunch of fuel spraying at closed valves that suddenly dumps in there after a lot of cranking, or cranking speed picks up... in which case, I'd dry it out, then crank it with the gas pedal to the floor for 10 secs or so on a fresh batt until it starts cranking faster, then let the pedal up, while still cranking, see if it starts.

[Force Fed Mopar]

You have another computer to try? I'd find the wiring diagram for the engine controls and trace the injector wires, make sure there isn't a short or something anywhere too.

[turbovanman²]

Rings are already seated so probably no damage.

Did you do the fuel injectors into a cup like we said earlier?

You really need to borrow a scanner, you need to see the data stream and see what's going on, it could be bad sensor the computer to go full rich or something else?

[beeblebrox82]

I couldn't get the rail off without removing the fpr, which I didn't want to do at the. Ytime but I will now. I'll check a few things tonight and if I don't get anywhere I'll get a scanner. Unfortunatly I don't have a spare smec at the moment

[turbovanman²]

Why take off the FPR?

[beeblebrox82]

Why take off the FPR?

to get the damn bolt underneath it (2pc intake)... was just reading, someone said they could get at it with a 1/4" drive... I couldn't get it in there last night... but it was late.

[turbovanman²]

to get the damn bolt underneath it (2pc intake)... was just reading, someone said they could get at it with a 1/4" drive... I couldn't get it in there last night... but it was late.

Gotcha.

I would use a 1/4 ratchet, :eyebrows:

[beeblebrox82]

good lord getting the fuel rail out from under a 2pc intake is a huge PITA.

It's out. Bad corrosion on several connectors.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Why take off the FPR?


to get the damn bolt underneath it (2pc intake)... was just reading, someone said they could get at it with a 1/4" drive... I couldn't get it in there last night... but it was late.

Have to take the FPR and valve cover off. Then most of the time pull the clips holding the injectors to the rail and shove them farther down the intake to get the rail out. PITA but doable.

Helped a friend do a 5spd, mitsu to garrett, 2 piece swap and FFV injectors on his Minvan this weekend. Went to fire it up and it basically did what it sounds like yours is doing, it'd try to hit a couple times then nothing. I put my foot to the floor and held it on the starter for about 10 seconds where it'd hit a bit and then I could let off the starter but had to keep it floored to idle at 600rpms. Pulse width was at 16 milliseconds. After about a minute of running like that it started to turn the PW down and after about 5 minutes I could slowly start to take my foot off the floor. Took about 10 minutes to be able to totally release the gas and the PW was still about 4ms which is pretty high for idle. Started pulling plug wires and found #3 not firing the injector as the roughness didn't change when we pulled that one but we had spark there. Pulled the injectors and put the stockers back in and she fired up and ran great.

Guess that story has me leading to thinking you definately have a fuel issue. But I think you have that figured out.

[beeblebrox82]

Yea, ended up pulling the valve cover, which I had sealed so nice. A stubby 13mm wrench hits that bolt under the FPR like a champ.

---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

Ok....


http://youtu.be/6khr66k7AHk


Few items of note... I assume the fuel pump should be priming the line when the ignition is turned on? This is obviously not happening. Problem in the ASD? Video was show just after I assembled, and you can hear the car turn to on, but no fuel pump, and it takes a few cranks to get the pressure up. You can see the prime shot on the second crank as the pressure was still high enough. Bad angle on the video, but the 4th injector is firing nicely with the 3rd. Are those supposed to be firing in that pattern? Pressure drops quickly after the cranking stops, during cranking it's steady at about 55. For the rail ground, I alligator clipped a wire from the rail ground to the manifold side of the firewall ground, so that tells me that ground is good. Not so sure if the ground was so good at the rail when assembled, it was reasonable rusted and greasy under there. Two injectors had considerable corrosion on the injector and in the connector. I cleaned all that up before the test. Confirmed stock T2 injectors. There's a growling sound from in the engine bay when I turn the key to on the 2nd time...not sure what's making that noise.

[turbovanman²]

Yes, when you hit the key, the asd relay turns on for a few secs to prime the system, so there's problem #1. The pattern is fine after the fuel pressure comes up. DAMN, that's alot of fuel, so I think you wired something up incorrectly, the computer is no good OR the coolant sensor circuit or sensor is messed up.

Pressure shouldn't drop after you turn off the key so you have an issue there.

I could get the fuel rail out without removing the valve cover with a 2 piece, :eyebrows:


First off, hook up a pressure guage to the shrader valve or tee in at the rubber line-engine cool and engine off.

Start the car and note fuel pressure, it should be around 50 or a bit less, unhook the vacuum line to the reg and it should go up to 55 psi. Now shut the car off and watch the fuel gauge, the pressure should stay. If not, pinch the pressure line-if it drops, you have a bad FPR or leaking injectors, if it holds, the check valve the in fuel pump is bad and the pump should be replaced.

Make sure the key is off, jump 12 volts to the coil + terminal, a fused jumper wire is best but a piece of wire will work just fine.

Now, you should be reading around 55 psi, now squeeze the return line, the pressure should jump to around 90-100 psi. If not, the pump is no good. You can check the FPR if you have a vacuum pump if not, the above test works.

These tests assume you have no leaks and a clean/newish fuel filter thats not plugged up.

If you have an amp clamp and a lab scope, you can check the brushes by looking at the waveform pattern, it should look like a nice sine wave.

[GLHNSLHT2]

looks decent. Yes the injectors fire with 1 and 2 at one time and 3 and 4 at the other. It's called Batch Fire. So you get 2 spritzes per firing event. I can't turn the volume up loud enough right now to hear the growling sound.

[bakes]

ya that is alot of fuel for a start up if you have a set of t1 injectors on hand try them

[beeblebrox82]

There's currently no coolant in the system, the top hose isn't even on, could that be what's causing the over fueling? I did two more cranks to read the pressure gauge, and there was about half a cup of gas in that container. holy cow!

I was able to manually activate the ASD yesterday through the diagnostic plug during the coil checks, but I had the fuel pump unplugged at the time. When I was doing the pressure tests, turning the key to on and leaving it made no change in the pressure, it instantly went and stuck nicely at 55 while cranking, and then fell off in.... say 5 seconds after the key was released. That pressure should hold right? I can do the hose pinching tricks tomorrow to see where the problem is.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Pressure should hold, your fpr is probably bad. I had one that leaked through the diaphragm into the vacuum line, it dropped pressure like that. New one holds pressure at 50ish.

[RoadWarrior222]

Wait up though, while there might be a problem with the fuel pump drainback, shouldn't it pull the pressure down a bit from vacuum while cranking? I am doubting the CTS is anything to do with it, on a cold start, ignores it until it catches I think.

[turbovanman²]

There's currently no coolant in the system, the top hose isn't even on, could that be what's causing the over fueling? I did two more cranks to read the pressure gauge, and there was about half a cup of gas in that container. holy cow!

I was able to manually activate the ASD yesterday through the diagnostic plug during the coil checks, but I had the fuel pump unplugged at the time. When I was doing the pressure tests, turning the key to on and leaving it made no change in the pressure, it instantly went and stuck nicely at 55 while cranking, and then fell off in.... say 5 seconds after the key was released. That pressure should hold right? I can do the hose pinching tricks tomorrow to see where the problem is.

No coolant doesn't make any difference.

The tests I posted up will pinpoint the pressure issue anyhow but that doesn't solve why your getting so much fuel cranking.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Are you sure they are stock injectors? What's the part number?

[beeblebrox82]

Wait up though, while there might be a problem with the fuel pump drainback, shouldn't it pull the pressure down a bit from vacuum while cranking? I am doubting the CTS is anything to do with it, on a cold start, ignores it until it catches I think.

Map maybe then? I did check the vac lines, no evidence of fuel... I can change out the map and the cts with spares and see if there's any difference. May not get too far tonight, but I can spend all day tomorrow on the thing.


Are you sure they are stock injectors? What's the part number?

4418258s 33 pounders, but from 89 t2s?

[turbovanman²]

Wait up though, while there might be a problem with the fuel pump drainback, shouldn't it pull the pressure down a bit from vacuum while cranking? I am doubting the CTS is anything to do with it, on a cold start, ignores it until it catches I think.

Nope and nope, it needs the CTS to start, that's why you get all kinds of weird things if it acts up.

[bakes]

Nope and nope, it needs the CTS to start, that's why you get all kinds of weird things if it acts up.
That and the air charge temp sensor can play havic if it seeing -65*C been there got that brownie badge.

[turbovanman²]

That and the air charge temp sensor can play havic if it seeing -65*C been there got that brownie badge.

Ditto, :banghead:

[beeblebrox82]

Alrighty. Probed the coolant sensor, read 3.6 volts... which if you look at the holland michigan weather right now (35 degrees or so in the garage) is perfect. So cross that one off the list.

Put the fuel gauge back on the rail... turned the key to on... nothing.

Manually actuated the ASD, and up went the fuel pressure to 55, and the fan kicked on, and several other relays clicked. fan continued to cycle on... off... on... and the fuel pump kept cycling... removed the ground from the diagnostic connector and the fan and random clicking stopped but the fuel pump kept working, on for a few... off for a few....

did it again and the fuel pump just ran continuously.


When I killed the key this time I watched the pressure gauge... it dropped much slower off the rail. How quickly is it supposed to drop anyway? It took 15 seconds or so to drop to ~ 40 pi. no gas out the vac port.


...

ok WTH.

just ran up mid post to check something again.... kicked over the ASD through the diagnostic cable... this time any time I ground the pin on the diag cable it fired the fuel pump. Pulled it off and put it on again.. no gas, and the fan relay just clicks... put it on again and the fan kicks on and just stays running, fuel pump only runs while the pin is grounded... Map solenoid was clicking on off even after I removed the ground. This thing is bat ---- crazy? Every time I turn on the ASD through the connector the car behaves differently.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

still no codes outside of 12 and 55.

[beeblebrox82]

Compression test... granted it's on a stone cold motor with washed down cylinders.... but the results are strange...

Cyl. 1 - 150
Cyl. 2 - 110
Cyl. 3 - 150
Cyl. 4 - 110

1 and 3 and 2 and 4 were within a few psi of each other... but 40 PSI difference???

[RoadWarrior222]

That would suggest to me that you have a grounding problem, and they're trying to ground through that pin, but it can't supply enough current drain, so it's sorta "first come first served" as to what managed to get enough current to click in. So I'd redo the engine grounds and the SMEC grounds.... and I'd also check nothing is crossed up or shorting, since it sorta sounds like they're finding an alternate path sometimes. Anyway, it's the first paragraph first chapter in T-M exorcism 101.. "Redo the grounds!" :D

[beeblebrox82]

That would suggest to me that you have a grounding problem, and they're trying to ground through that pin, but it can't supply enough current drain, so it's sorta "first come first served" as to what managed to get enough current to click in. So I'd redo the engine grounds and the SMEC grounds.... and I'd also check nothing is crossed up or shorting, since it sorta sounds like they're finding an alternate path sometimes. Anyway, it's the first paragraph first chapter in T-M exorcism 101.. "Redo the grounds!" :D

engine mount, firewall, main head ground, and then the few wires on the left wheel well right? That's it?

[Force Fed Mopar]

That sounds like what my car did when the cal wasn't right...

[turbovanman²]

engine mount, firewall, main head ground, and then the few wires on the left wheel well right? That's it?

Don't forget computer grounds.

Fuel pressure shouldn't drop when you shut the key off, read my diagnostic chart, :eyebrows:

[beeblebrox82]

That sounds like what my car did when the cal wasn't right...

One of these days I'll actually pull he SMEC and make sure it's stock


Don't forget computer grounds.

Fuel pressure shouldn't drop when you shut the key off, read my diagnostic chart, :eyebrows:

that's what I meant by the grounds on the wheel where, there's two on that screw right? one from the battery terminal and one coming from the computer? Anyway... I didn't like that one, cleaned it up considerably and now the ASD triggering is yielding consistent results (fan on, fuel pump on constant.)

Still doesn't turn on when I turn the key... maybe there's a wiring issue under the dash.

Did another test fire with the injectors out, everything is still working. seemed like it was shooting less gas but it's hard to tell. I think I might pop it back together and see what it does. I'm going to be irritated if it just turned out to be a ground issue... although those compression numbers are worrisome.

[turbovanman²]

Wouldn't worry about the compression until you get it running, then recheck it.

[bakes]

Wouldn't worry about the compression until you get it running, then recheck it.
ditto . i would also put a teaspoon of oil down each spark hole to stop tearing the ring up while get this problem solved.

[shackwrrr]

Have you been cleaning the plugs between tries or tried a fresh set after fixing the ground?

[beeblebrox82]

http://youtu.be/lOFm_F-1bG4


Could not have done it without you guys. Idling smooth, rev-ing strong.

[black86glhs]

Amazing what a couple of grounds will do. Glad it was something simple.

[RoadWarrior222]

Sweet, hope that was it.

[bakes]

Ok so which ground was it?????

[beeblebrox82]

Ok so which ground was it?????

I messed with all three, but I believe it was the computer ground on the drivers side wheel well. That one was not pretty, and as soon as I fixed it when I actuated the ASD I started getting consistent behavior from the engine. So I think that was it. It's idling under it's own power and reving nicely, so I assume it's getting acceptable fuel now. Won't really know until I put a wideband on it. No black smoke after the first few seconds of the first run, so that's good. Seems happy!

[turbovanman²]

So that's 2 no starts due to grounds! Glad its fixed. :nod:

Grounds and wiring were mentioned a few times, :eyebrows:

[beeblebrox82]

So that's 2 no starts due to grounds! Glad its fixed. :nod:

Grounds and wiring were mentioned a few times, :eyebrows:

Arg, yes. I was focused on the ground at the injectors and the intake.... didn't even think about the computer ground until I realized how erratic it was behaving. Thanks everybody for the help!