Built 413 no reverse questions

[bgbmxer]

Looking to buy a car has a built auto and a cheeta rmvb in it. Has all forward gears but no reverse.

1 where do I start in diagnosing fixing
2 comes with a spare auto trans should I just swap the valvebody and what's all involved in that?

Sorry I'm a complete newb to autos. Never tackled one yet

[turbovanman²]

Its probably the lo/reverse servo, which can be fixed without taking the trans apart. I would pick up the ATSG book adn go thru it, that will help you familirize yourself then you can ask questions and know what we are talking about when we answer you, :nod:

[denviola]

I have no experience with reverse pattern valve bodies. In a stock transmission, if the low/reverse band breaks it will still move forward weakly but not at all in reverse since the band can no longer bind the rear clutch drum (at least that is how the 904/727 trans worked). If it moves forward well, then the reverse servo probably has an issue either in the servo itself or an issue with the VB providing fluid pressure. Has the car been sitting for an extended period of time? Is the fluid up to proper level, is it pink and has a good smell or dark and burned? If dark and smells bad, don't bother swapping VB, it's burned up. Overfilling an auto trans is bad too, the fluid contacts the rotating assemblies and gets filled with air bubbles. Can burn the clutches as well.

If you have pressure gauges and a service manual as diagnosis tools, you can more accurately find the problem. I would not just swap the VB, if the installed trans has mods the stock VB may or may not work properly. If you want to overhaul a trans for the car, I still have all my tools (except gauges). Stock ATs are surprisingly simple inside.

[bgbmxer]

I have no experience with reverse pattern valve bodies. In a stock transmission, if the low/reverse band breaks it will still move forward weakly but not at all in reverse since the band can no longer bind the rear clutch drum (at least that is how the 904/727 trans worked). If it moves forward well, then the reverse servo probably has an issue either in the servo itself or an issue with the VB providing fluid pressure. Has the car been sitting for an extended period of time? Is the fluid up to proper level, is it pink and has a good smell or dark and burned? If dark and smells bad, don't bother swapping VB, it's burned up. Overfilling an auto trans is bad too, the fluid contacts the rotating assemblies and gets filled with air bubbles. Can burn the clutches as well.

If you have pressure gauges and a service manual as diagnosis tools, you can more accurately find the problem. I would not just swap the VB, if the installed trans has mods the stock VB may or may not work properly. If you want to overhaul a trans for the car, I still have all my tools.

I have some fsm and such not sure if they have trans stuff in them I will have to check and or buy one. I think it might be due to the car sitting as he says it just quit all of the sudden and it does sit a good bit. Also what kinda gauges do I need all I have is hydraulic guages. I haven't take it for a drive yet I'm just picking everyone's brain to know what I'm getting myself into cause I'm really liking this car considering.

[turbovanman²]

You need a 200 psi gauge and small fittings, not sure on the size. The ATSG book has the pressures and what ports to tap.

If the lo/reverse piston goes, you can't really tell except no reverse, been there, got the badge, lol. Had to have one made custom as I kept breaking them and blowing out the seal.

[bgbmxer]

You need a 200 psi gauge and small fittings, not sure on the size. The ATSG book has the pressures and what ports to tap.

If the lo/reverse piston goes, you can't really tell except no reverse, been there, got the badge, lol. Had to have one made custom as I kept breaking them and blowing out the seal.

If it has a rmvb would my pressures be higher?
And what is the cause of the piston breaking also

[turbovanman²]

If it has a rmvb would my pressures be higher?
And what is the cause of the piston breaking also

Depends, its been posted that out of the box, the RMVB's are set low.

Piston and seal damage is caused by the line pressure being too high.

[bgbmxer]

Depends, its been posted that out of the box, the RMVB's are set low.

Piston and seal damage is caused by the line pressure being too high.

That's what I thought anyways. I will just have to investigate. No better time to learn about automatics then the present I guess. Where is the best place to get a manual? eBay

[turbovanman²]

That's what I thought anyways. I will just have to investigate. No better time to learn about automatics then the present I guess. Where is the best place to get a manual? eBay

Ebay or local trans parts supplier.

[bgbmxer]

If that piston is intact broke or what not could I just swap that vb onto another 413 and be good to go?

And refresh my memory. The turbo autos are different then the regulars correct?

[Dave]

I had a bur in my case casting that continously would tear the seal and would cause intermittent problems with reverse. Ended up deburring the cylinder and all was better.

[turbovanman²]

If that piston is intact broke or what not could I just swap that vb onto another 413 and be good to go?

And refresh my memory. The turbo autos are different then the regulars correct?

That piston is in the trans, so yes, you can swap your VB to another trans BUT if that trans isn't built or slightly modified, it won't shift as nicely or last as long.

If the trans is stock and hasn't been rebuilt because you just never know-IE I just did a customers 87 trans out of his Z, it had N/A components, then all turbo, v6 and 31TH's are heavy duty from the factory.

[bgbmxer]

That piston is in the trans, so yes, you can swap your VB to another trans BUT if that trans isn't built or slightly modified, it won't shift as nicely or last as long.

If the trans is stock and hasn't been rebuilt because you just never know-IE I just did a customers 87 trans out of his Z, it had N/A components, then all turbo, v6 and 31TH's are heavy duty from the factory.

Guess my main goal will be to try and fix the Built trans then. And get a service manual so I know if indeed the piston is broke how to get to it and fix it

[ShelGame]

If the piston is just broke (happened to me with a Cheetah RMVB, too), then you can swap the piston in the car. I don't remember what all I had to remove to get at it, but it wasn't that much. I swapped it in less than half a day. If the rest of the trans is built (and good), it's a no-brainer swap.

[turbovanman²]

Guess my main goal will be to try and fix the Built trans then. And get a service manual so I know if indeed the piston is broke how to get to it and fix it

You drop the pan, valve body and this is blurry, remove a pin, move the arm out of the way, remove the circlip and the piston assembly falls out. Inspect and go from there.

If it broke, the only reason is the line pressure is too high, so simply turn it back down. Its possible someone put a stiffer spring in to crank the line pressure.

[RoadWarrior222]

By the way, when they sit for a long time, the TC and pump drains and it takes a few mins to get enough pressure to activate reverse. So if it was a case of fired it up, tried to reverse, wouldn't, then let it run for 5 mins, give it 2000 RPM in neutral for a minute or two, go back to idle, THEN try reverse.

[bgbmxer]

thanks for the help guys denny i might be giving you a call to pick your brain and possibly enlist some help. i guess ill dig into it and report back with questions from there. anyone have an atsg they wanna sell.

---------- Post added at 07:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------


If the piston is just broke (happened to me with a Cheetah RMVB, too), then you can swap the piston in the car. I don't remember what all I had to remove to get at it, but it wasn't that much. I swapped it in less than half a day. If the rest of the trans is built (and good), it's a no-brainer swap.

if this is the case that would be wonderful so i could run the built trans in it. i will also be getting ahold of you for a cal at some point. this car was built back when they added a 5th injector and rrfpr was as good as it got. has alot of forward motion parts on it. gotta find all the details and then go from there. also where can i sorce the piston? dealer or trans shop?

[135sohc]

might still be available from the dealer. Same piece used up through 2000. I had one but sent it shelgame a few weeks ago.

[bgbmxer]

might still be available from the dealer. Same piece used up through 2000. I had one but sent it shelgame a few weeks ago.

you good with autos as well?

[turbovanman²]

I was using used ones until I had a billet one made with a scarf seal, I have one left but that one uses the OE seal.

[135sohc]

you good with autos as well?

I am not ready to tackle one of those yet.

[bgbmxer]

I am not ready to tackle one of those yet.

me neither but looks like im going to anyways ha

---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------


I was using used ones until I had a billet one made with a scarf seal, I have one left but that one uses the OE seal.

what did you have it made out of? ill have to see how complicated it is my old mans a machinist. makes me all kinds of crazy stuff.

[bgbmxer]

Does that Service guide include a404 a413 and a670 all in one book? Just to make sure ink getting the correct one

[RoadWarrior222]

yep that's it...

( "Preview" it online if you like, think it's on scribd or somewhere similar, linked to it a few times )

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

http://www.slideshare.net/dangerq/transmission-chrysler-a404-a670

think that's it... on the slow 'pooter, don't wanna make it thrash by opening it :D

[bgbmxer]

yep that's it...

( "Preview" it online if you like, think it's on scribd or somewhere similar, linked to it a few times )

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

http://www.slideshare.net/dangerq/transmission-chrysler-a404-a670

think that's it... on the slow 'pooter, don't wanna make it thrash by opening it :D

it crashed my smart tv haha

[ShelGame]

I think I have the A413 ASTG manual in .PDF form somewhere...

EDIT: here's the link... http://oskin.ru/pub/chrysler-dodge/manuals/ATSG_Transmission_Repair/ATGS_Torqueflight_A404_A413_A415_A470.pdf

[turbovanman²]

what did you have it made out of? ill have to see how complicated it is my old mans a machinist. makes me all kinds of crazy stuff.

Aluminum.

[bgbmxer]

A little update. Car was sitting for awhile and he took it out for a drive and noticed reverse doesn't work. Says it is faintly there and forward works fine

[turbovanman²]

A little update. Car was sitting for awhile and he took it out for a drive and noticed reverse doesn't work. Says it is faintly there and forward works fine

1000-1 its the piston or seal.

[RoadWarrior222]

Could give it a good drive round with Lucas tranny fix and it might work fine for years afterward (In which case it would have been a dry seal or sticky piston that cleaned up)

[bgbmxer]

Could give it a good drive round with Lucas tranny fix and it might work fine for years afterward (In which case it would have been a dry seal or sticky piston that cleaned up)

I will try that but I know that would be too easy

[RoadWarrior222]

it crashed my smart tv hahaJust checked it, yah, it's a flash based pdf viewer and smart TVs and media devices usually have the mobile version of flash, flash lite, so it might not have liked it.

[denviola]

Brandon you have not told us the best diagnostic of them all. What does the fluid look and smell like? If it is dark and smells bad, the trans is fried and swapping the VB is futile. All the info you need is in the factory service manual to pull the pan, do the pressure tests, pull the VB or rebuild. I'll loan you mine. What you have to understand is that ATs need regular fluid changes, no matter what anyone says. I used to rebuild all the ATs at the dealer back then, and most failures are lack of maintenance. As Simon said, it could easily be a seal or piston issue. Really bad old or burned fluid will clog the VB as well, especially if it has been sitting. I change my fiuld and filter at 20K miles max. That may not be a lot of miles for some but it is a lot for me as I live close to work. AT fluid has great cleaning propeties as well. Used to dump some into old engines crankcases to free stuck rings, especially on old tractors that never got maintenance.
BTW, just a thought. Look under the hood when someone puts the trans in reverse, checking if the shift cable is loose. Be careful not to get run over......If the cable is out of adjustment, it may be putting the selector valve just slightly out of position and then no reverse. Long shot but easy to check and no fluid all over.....the VB has a detent so this should not happen but it costs nothing to check.

[bgbmxer]

Brandon you have not told us the best diagnostic of them all. What does the fluid look and smell like? If it is dark and smells bad, the trans is fried and swapping the VB is futile. All the info you need is in the factory service manual to pull the pan, do the pressure tests, pull the VB or rebuild. I'll loan you mine. What you have to understand is that ATs need regular fluid changes, no matter what anyone says. I used to rebuild all the ATs at the dealer back then, and most failures are lack of maintenance. As Simon said, it could easily be a seal or piston issue. Really bad old or burned fluid will clog the VB as well, especially if it has been sitting. I change my fiuld and filter at 20K miles max. That may not be a lot of miles for some but it is a lot for me as I live close to work. AT fluid has great cleaning propeties as well. Used to dump some into old engines crankcases to free stuck rings, especially on old tractors that never got maintenance.
BTW, just a thought. Look under the hood when someone puts the trans in reverse, checking if the shift cable is loose. Be careful not to get run over......If the cable is out of adjustment, it may be putting the selector valve just slightly out of position and then no reverse. Long shot but easy to check and no fluid all over.....the VB has a detent so this should not happen but it costs nothing to check.

I am going to look at the car Tom and if it is in the shape the guy says it is buy it. I just wanted to pick everyone's brain and make sure I'm not getting in over my head. If I do buy it I'll probably buy my own book and start tearing into it and then post on here from that point on with questions. I will let everyone know what I find. Definitely pulling the dipstick on that will be the first thing I do

[denviola]

What year is it? I may have a good trans laying around.
denny

[bgbmxer]

What year is it? I may have a good trans laying around.
denny

The car is a 93 The rest i have to investigate. Built motor with je pistons and a enforcer turbo from forward motion and some other stuff. Gonna be a lot of investigating.

[turbovanman²]

Any update?

[bgbmxer]

Any update?
Ended up not buyin the car. It's definitely rust free car but the bottom end had a nock and the wiring was worse then a rats nest. I still plan on building an automatic someday so thanks for all the help guys