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Dave
07-30-2006, 02:35 PM
Well we need to start seeing TM's going fast. It's cheap and it's easy. The ball's in our court here guys, we have the overall advantage of going fast for next-to-nothing and keeping it reliable. You can't doubt our engines and transmissions are strong.

So here's my list of how to make that Turbo Mopar a freaking beast!

(1. Open that exhaust
(A. Buy an exhaust cut out!!!!!!!!! I cannot stress this enough. In all 5 of our Turbo Mopars, every one has a cut out that sits after the downpipe, and everyone has shaved 3/10 off the 1/4 mile. Better boost response and way more top end power, yo. They're about $45. Cheap, just weld it in, works great.

(B. Port that exhaust manifold too! Our cars benefit more on the exhaust side. A big exhaust manifold will not only help spool up but also high end power due to increased flow.

(C. Invest into a 2.5" or even 3" SV and downpipe.

(2. Spark plugs...
Don't ever use NGK Platinum plugs. The tips will break off and destroy your turbine wheel.

Use the stock Champion RN12YC's. I haven't had any luck with the RN9YC's (a colder spark plug, supposed to be a track only plug). It would continously miss at the line, couldn't build any boost. POS IMO. Don't listen to the V8 guys. They're retards. As the boost goes up the spark plug gap goes down. Stock gap is .035" and stock boost is anywhere from 7-11psi. Hm, now if you're running say 20psi, at .035" how much of that spark will become distrupted due to the increased cylinder pressure? Probally a lot. Bring the gap down to shorten the distance. Helps a lot. W

While we're at it, base ignition timing should start at 12* and work your way accordingly from there. That's stock BTW.

(3. Intake
Okay it doesn't help "that much" but anything will help to get that intake charge down. Put the filter in a cold place will it will get direct air. Behind the grill works best. Keep hot oil and coolant lines away from the intake/intercooler pipes. Try and keep those intake/intercooler lines away from the tranny and head too. Especially the head. The head gets hot. :nod:

(4. Intercooling
A stocker is only good for so much. At 20psi you can't even touch mine TII's outlet end tank it's so hot. They get heat soaked very quickly. Mine's even mounted as a front mount.

Upgrade to anything from the stocker. Honestly, screw the stock intercoolers. Someone has yet to prove that any other stock intercooler will flow/cool as well as an aftermarket unit. Don't buy some beer or cigarrettes for 2 weeks, save up for an intercooler.

(5. Intercooler pipes
2" pipes work good for around 14-16psi, any higher I'd go with 2.5". Those should be good for as high as 28psi. Try to avoid any tight bends. Tight areas cause turbulence, turbulence causes a pressure drop in the boost, pressure drop causes the turbo to work harder, spin faster, and generate more heat. Got it? :) Heat = bad.

(6. Porting the head works wonders. So I've heard. I'll post my experience with a stock head to a ported head.

(7. Turbo
Upgrading the turbo works awesome. Less heat expansion, greater flow, higher boost potential. Overall efficiency. Especially from stock. Ditch that T3 Garrett or crap Mitsu. If you have a mitsu, a Garrett is a great upgrade. If you have a Garrett your next best bet is a hybrid. Be careful when going aftermarket. Look at your long term goals and present confirguration as well. The turbo will have to match it. Ask for advice on here before buying a turbo! I got lucky.

(8. Upping the boost
(A. Fuel
+20's are usually good for around 15-21psi of boost. People have used rising rate regulators to squeeze much more pressure and use the injectors to perform like they're bigger. I don't reccommend that. Use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and just upgrade the injector sizes.
+40's are usually good for 21-26psi. So I've heard. Anyone have any experience with the limits of the 40's?

(A1. Pumps
To run over 16psi it's reccommended to use a 190 L/Hr fuel pump or why not spend the few extra cents and buy the 255 L/Hr fuel pump. It helps.

(A2. Regulating
When adding larger injectors you'll need to lower the base pressure in order to prevent it from running too rich. An Accufab (new style) or FM (old style) adjustable fuel pressure regulator is what you'll want. I'd also purchases a 0-60psi Summit Racing fuel pressure gauge. It's way more accurate than the 0-80 or 0-100 psi gauges.

(B. Boost control
I use an in-cabin mounted HP Performance MBC. I use 2' of vaccum line on each side. It only spikes 1psi and doesn't creep. Complete control at my fingertips. :focus: Sorry I have ADD.

The boost controller will aid in boost response and total control.

(B1. Going past 14.7
You have a few choices of going past 14.7psi (2 bar)
1-A manual cut out raiser. This allows a certain cut out point
2-A diode. This sends a false signal to the MAP sensor making the cut out point however high you set the voltage to.
3-A MAP clamp. This clamps the vaccum line and again, allows the cut out point to be wherever you want
4-A 3bar MAP sensor, which brings the cut out point to 29.4psi.

(C. Beefing up internals
Not really neccassary but advised.

Folks have ran up to 28psi on the stock bottom end and made continous passes. I'm running 20-21 psi on the original 114,000 mile block and head. No parts have ever been freshened up internally except for the oil pump and rod bearings.

It's advised to use oversized forged pistons and Clevite bearings.

So to wrap everything up, get air into and out of the engine as quick as possible, get the intake charge as cool as possible, and keep your Air/Fuel ratio fat and happy.

G'luck folks

-Bryan

Whorse
07-30-2006, 02:40 PM
Might want to add extra injectors under the fuel section, as well as water/alcohol injection. Both proven methods that are good alternatives.

Tony Hanna
07-30-2006, 02:46 PM
+1 on the alky injection. 28 psi on a bone stock fuel system with no problems.

Whorse
07-30-2006, 04:04 PM
Simon's detonation problem was what really opened my eyes to the alky injection. I plan on putting it on my car just as a safety if nothing else.

turbovanmanČ
07-30-2006, 05:35 PM
Simon's detonation problem was what really opened my eyes to the alky injection. I plan on putting it on my car just as a safety if nothing else.

I know, it suprised the crap out of me, dropped 2 secs at the same boost. Can't wait to install the Devilsown kit I bought.

Bryan, if you had gone to SDAC, you would have seen cheap TM's destroy the skittles, :nod: :thumb:

JDAWG
07-30-2006, 05:47 PM
I have ADD.

lol

omnivore
07-30-2006, 11:11 PM
I can't agree on the cooler plug causing misses. My car runs great on RN9YC's, gapped down to .028 at higher boost....and 2.25" intercooler piping is plenty big enough for anyone running under 11.0 ET's. dave St Louis had no problems running 11's on a 16V T-II motor and a big turbo, all using 2.25" stuff....car probably made over 400 WHP too....and 2.25" allows an easy coupling to the throttle body too.

Dave
07-30-2006, 11:30 PM
I know, it suprised the crap out of me, dropped 2 secs at the same boost. Can't wait to install the Devilsown kit I bought.

Bryan, if you had gone to SDAC, you would have seen cheap TM's destroy the skittles, :nod: :thumb:

Excuse me? Skittles? :confused: So what is this, you dropped two seconds off by adding meth. injection?

BTW this is just a simple write up, nothing too fancy or extreme.

Mario
07-31-2006, 12:23 AM
SRT-4's.

SpoolinGLH
07-31-2006, 12:24 AM
Yep, Skittles is the newnickname for the Srt-4's :lol:

turbovanmanČ
07-31-2006, 12:57 AM
Excuse me? Skittles? :confused: So what is this, you dropped two seconds off by adding meth. injection?

BTW this is just a simple write up, nothing too fancy or extreme.

Did you read the SDAC thread? its the new nickname for SRT4's, as stated, :eyebrows: :lol:

Yep, dropped 2 secs using my homemade setup I posted about a month or so ago. After some more tuning with it, I am sure I have a few more secs. Also, after next week, I am taking my setup out and running the Devilsown kit, :nod:

Dave
08-02-2006, 12:27 PM
Did you read the SDAC thread? its the new nickname for SRT4's, as stated, :eyebrows: :lol:

Yep, dropped 2 secs using my homemade setup I posted about a month or so ago. After some more tuning with it, I am sure I have a few more secs. Also, after next week, I am taking my setup out and running the Devilsown kit, :nod:

Dayum. :eek:

TrrboJeep
08-03-2006, 07:48 AM
Dave, with your new setup & "alky", 12's would be a walk in the park! :nod:

I'm tellin ya... once you start running alky, you'll wonder why you never did it sooner, and you'll never be without it again on a turbo car. :amen:

Clay
08-03-2006, 08:21 AM
Well we need to start seeing TM's going fast. It's cheap and it's easy. The ball's in our court here guys, we have the overall advantage of going fast for next-to-nothing and keeping it reliable. You can't doubt our engines and transmissions are strong.

Are you the Tony Little of Turbo Mopars????????? :p

Tony Hanna
08-03-2006, 08:25 AM
Dave, with your new setup & "alky", 12's would be a walk in the park! :nod:

I'm tellin ya... once you start running alky, you'll wonder why you never did it sooner, and you'll never be without it again on a turbo car. :amen:

:amen: I need to get off my butt and install the alky setup on the Sundance.

Clay
08-03-2006, 08:41 AM
(B1. Going past 14.7
You have a few choices of going past 14.7psi (2 bar)
1-A manual cut out raiser. This allows a certain cut out point
2-A diode. This sends a false signal to the MAP sensor making the cut out point however high you set the voltage to.
3-A MAP clamp. This clamps the vaccum line and again, allows the cut out point to be wherever you want
4-A 3bar MAP sensor, which brings the cut out point to 29.4psi.


so as not to confuse people, 2 bars = 29.4 PSI. A 2 bar MAP sensors range is from -14.7 PSI (vacuum) -> +14.7 PSI (boost), for a total of 29.4 PSI.

Also, a diode and a MAP clamp are effectively the same thing. A diode is typicaly not adjustable, while a MAP clamp typically is adjustable. But they are both electrical mods, not a clamp on a vacuum line.

and to run a 3 bar MAP, you have to have a computer capable of using it. The output voltage of a 2 bar MAP and a 3 bar MAP are the same, ie 0 -> 5 volts. So the scaling of a 3 bar MAP is completely different than a 2 bar MAP, so the computer has to be setup to run that sensor.

clay

Mario
08-03-2006, 01:04 PM
1 BAR = 14.504...or is it different for cars?

Clay
08-03-2006, 01:53 PM
well I know when I was in school a 1 bar was 14.504, but for some reason ever since Ive been into the TDs, everyone has always used 14.7.......... so who knows!! ;)

Im sure the sensors actually only work until 14.5 PSI, but Ive never tested it on a bench or anything.

clay

tryingbe
08-03-2006, 01:53 PM
1 Bar roughly equal 1 ATM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_%28unit%29

Clay
08-03-2006, 01:56 PM
there you go. 1 ATM = 14.7 psi, so somewhere along the line ATMs were confused/mixed/whatever with BAR. (by more people than just me!)

cordes
08-03-2006, 04:30 PM
so as not to confuse people, 2 bars = 29.4 PSI. A 2 bar MAP sensors range is from -14.7 PSI (vacuum) -> +14.7 PSI (boost), for a total of 29.4 PSI.



Vac is not typically referenced in PSI, but in in. of hg.

A 2 bar map measures aboslute pressure to 2 bar. We only see 14.7 PSI of boost since we live at 14.7 PSI all the time, and therefore reference atmospheric pressure as 0 PSI. A three bar sensor will read 3 bar absolute pressure too. Once again you will only see 2 bar on your gauge since the 1 bar is the pressure around us.

Clay
08-03-2006, 08:06 PM
Vac is not typically referenced in PSI, but in in. of hg.

not necessarily. Its all a function of how much vacuum you have. In our case, a car since the engines dont make lots of vacuum we use inches of mercury probably to get better resolution. A car running 20 in-hg has about 10 psi of vacuum. now on to the next part.......



A 2 bar map measures aboslute pressure to 2 bar. We only see 14.7 PSI of boost since we live at 14.7 PSI all the time, and therefore reference atmospheric pressure as 0 PSI. A three bar sensor will read 3 bar absolute pressure too. Once again you will only see 2 bar on your gauge since the 1 bar is the pressure around us.

This is true as well, it all depends on your point of reference. I usually reference things in PSIG (gage pressure) and so do the gauges we look at in the car. 20 in-hg (~10 psi) is really 4 PSIA (absolute).

clay

Dave
08-04-2006, 01:17 AM
I always thought we live in 1 bar... 14.7psi. Added onto 14.7psi makes 2 bar. But in Manifold Absolute Pressure, it reads 14.7psi, not 29.4psi. So that's why I say a 3bar is good up to 29.7psi, b/c it will then cut out. Rob Pachner has this problem. He wants to run 30psi, but can't b/c it will cutout. He needs a 3.5bar MAP.

Thanks for cleaing up the clamp and diode part. I never used those. :thumb:

Frank
08-04-2006, 06:45 AM
sea level, we are at 1 bar, 1 atm, or 14.7psi. however indicated boost on a boost guage is referenced from atmospheric... 14.7psi. so if you are running "5psi" of boost, it is really 5psi above atmospheric. so yes a 2 bar map will do 29.4psi absolute, but when combined with the natural 14.7 atmospheric conditions, it will only be effective to the 14.7psi of indicated boost. 3bar is 44.1psi and 29.4psi respectively.


Frank

Clay
08-04-2006, 08:28 AM
Yup, thats why we have PSIA and PSIG. A = absolute, so just sitting out on your desk it should read about 14.7 PSI, G = gage, so just sitting out on a desk it should read 0 PSI.

SO 14.7 PSIA = 0.0 PSIG

Its all about reference point.

turbovanmanČ
08-05-2006, 09:49 AM
sea level, we are at 1 bar, 1 atm, or 14.7psi. however indicated boost on a boost guage is referenced from atmospheric... 14.7psi. so if you are running "5psi" of boost, it is really 5psi above atmospheric. so yes a 2 bar map will do 29.4psi absolute, but when combined with the natural 14.7 atmospheric conditions, it will only be effective to the 14.7psi of indicated boost. 3bar is 44.1psi and 29.4psi respectively.


Frank

:banghead: :faint:

TrrboJeep
08-07-2006, 03:26 PM
/\/\/\ :lol: :lol: