Making your TM a Track King

[Dave]

Okay after seeing people dumping all this money into their vehicles and running so many pounds of boost but still stuck in the 13's or 14's, I've decided to hopefully educate people here for how to race your TM properly and how to make it go its fastest. Every TM has potential for atleast 13's or 12's. It's very easy, can be very cheap, so let's kick some a$$ folks. It's disapointing to see people still in the 15's. Up the boost, open that exhaust, freeze that intake charge.

With that said, here's my writeup to make your TM a freaking rocket.

(1.Traction
Most of the problems people are having are in the first 60'. Coming off the line is the hardest yet most important part of drag racing. Our cars are naturally torquey vehicles. We're torque monsters. This makes traction difficult to attain. Invest into some slicks or even drag radials.

(A. Warming up the slicks or drag radials.
Doing a burnout is an important part to making those tires stick. Pull into the burnout box and go through out. You want the bottom of the slick about 2 inches past the box. This will put a little load on the differential, causing it to "lock up" just a bit and spinning both tires. It might transfer between tires a bit, but for the most part it will spin both if done right.

If you have an auto, bring up the boost and get into 1st gear lightly, short shift into 2nd and nail it. Take it up through 2nd for about 3 seconds then let off. Don't forget to set the e-brake.... if it works.

A manual, okay I've never raced a turbo manual. I'm not sure on there. Someone else can describe how to properly roast the tires on a stick.

(B. Tire pressure
Bump up the rear tire pressure and lower the front pressure. Personally I run 42psi in the rear tires and with slicks I run 11-12psi, drag radials I'll run 13-14psi.

(C. Launching
Ah, the most difficult part. If you have a larger than mitsu turbo the boost will more than likely come on slow and when it comes on there's where the problems are. Play around with how high you come out. I personally came out at 3,200 - 3,300 RPMS (8 or 9psi of boost) and got right into it. I cut a 1.88 60'. With drag radials I couldn't get it to hook. I would have to get into the gas half throttle until I came near 4,700 RPMs, then I could mash it.

So when coming out, try getting into it at a throttle percentage and then procede to WOT. It will take practice, but holy hell hold on when you got it down.

Invest into heavy duty rear shocks. They're $45 at AutoZone. They will keep that car from squating and losing front end traction

Some people have had luck with a dual stage boost controller. Set it to a low boost setting and flipping a switch, activating a higher boost level. That again will take lots of practice, but works well once mastered.

(2. Staging
Assuming you have an auto, it'll be hard to build boost quick if you have a larger than a mitsu. turbo. Trying to build boost on pre-stage and roll into stage with boost wont work too well. When you are in the boost the master cylinder can't develop any more vaccum for the brakes. If you let off the brakes and try to get back into the brakes, the brakes aren't going to apply as hard, because you just let some vaccum out. Do your burnout quick and fly into staging. When you get into the staging and activate the last bulb, get that boost building. Use your tach as a reference where to come out at, it's bigger than the boost gauge and easier to see.

Again with the 5spd, never done it. Someone?

(3. Shifting
In any auto or stick you can feel where the car's power-band is. You will feel it stop pulling. Look at the tach where it stops pulling and shift there. On a stock 8v head it's usually only good for 5,500 RPMs. Since upgrading from the stock T3 Garrett to a T3/T04E with a super 50 wheel I noticed I had more top end power. This would be due to a higher flowing exhaust side.

In an auto, invest into a reverse manual valve body (RMVB) so you can shift it wherever you want. You also have the benefit to turn the line pressure up the grenade-mode so it barks 2nd gear every time.

In a stick, I would atleast reccommend a good clutch. Centerforce kicks a$$.

(4. Keeping it cold
Another VERY important part that I see a lot of TMer's forget. Let the damn car cool down!!! Put a towel and ice on top the intake. Spray the intercooler with a garden hose and put some ice on it, or even both. When coming down the return road pop the hood and put the heat on high and defrost. By the time you get to your pit area you can shut if off immediately. It's a good cool down from the return road.

When you get into your pit area open the hood and let it cool for atleast 10-15 minutes. Invest into a manual cooling fan switch. They're like $5 and it helps keep things cool at the track. I leave mine on from the time I arrive at the gate. The battery will be fine with its charge.

Also I recommend buying a 180 thermostat. Drill a very small hole at the top of the thermostate on the outer portion that sticks out. Install it so the hole points straight up.

That's it for now. Add on to this and lets help people get their TMs kicking butt.

Look over into the General area, I compiled a list of go-fast mods.

-Bryan

[Bubba]

I'd burn out in 2nd back when I had my 5-speed Shadow. Ran 10.5 psi pressure in my M&H slicks.

[Frank]

Defrost kicks the A/C on and heats up the intercooler and engine bay. Heat if fine, but not defrost.


Frank

[BIG PSI]

What A/C---ours are all gone except on the 91 Spirit ES and BIG PSI my
89 Voyager SE.

Chuck

[slasky]

Who has working AC on a 20 year old TD?????

[Dave]

Ha, A/C... that's funny, Frank. :thumb:

Anyways, let's keep those tricks and tips coming!

[csxtra]

For cooling, if the car was originally equipped with A/C, you can use the A/C controls for a manual fan switch.

If you have working A/C, unplug the compressor clutch, then put the climate control on A/C and turn the blower on low. The computer will start the radiator fan, thinking the A/C is running.

If you don't have working A/C, or you have removed the A/C, short the pins on the pressure switch connector together (so the computer thinks that the A/C is charged), and do the same.

No need to add another switch or additional wiring.


And on clutches:
The Centerforce kicks @ss up until about 230 HP, after which it SLIPS @ss. It is designed to hold high HP/Torque at high RPM, but our cars will easily overpower it because the weights don't add any additional clamping in the 3000-4000 RPM range, where our cars make more torque than it can handle.

As you go up in power, expect to replace the Centerforce...

[Bubba]

RP stage3 4-puck ;)

[Frank]

According to Aries_Turbo, the new Strip & Street clutch from TU is pretty sweet!

[Tony Hanna]

Who has working AC on a 20 year old TD?????

Me. At least until the compressor locked up a few days ago. :lol:
Oh well, at least I have a spare...

[Turbo3Iroc]

If you don't have working A/C, or you have removed the A/C, short the pins on the pressure switch connector together (so the computer thinks that the A/C is charged), and do the same.

No need to add another switch or additional wiring.

I tried this on my R/T a couple months ago and it still didn't work.

[fleckster]

I tried this on my R/T a couple months ago and it still didn't work.

Is the wiring at your clutch plugged in and working? If you have a short in the wiring up at the clutch, it won't kick the compressor on either. You may have to check and make sure that you are getting voltage at the clutch. Maybe a bad A/C relay? What Warren suggests is to bypass the low pressure switch. That will take care of only that portion. (if the clutch doesn't come on because of low pressure) If that doesn't allow the a/c clutch to be engaged then you have another problem in the a/c electrical system.

[Turbo3Iroc]

The A/C used to work on the car but it developed a leak 2 years ago and now all of the plumbing is removed. I ended up cutting the connector off and tied the wires together because I wasnt sure if they were making contact in the plug. I thought maybe Chrysler changed the wiring on the later cars. I'll swap out some relays and see what happens. Thanks.

[Pat]

The A/C used to work on the car but it developed a leak 2 years ago and now all of the plumbing is removed. I ended up cutting the connector off and tied the wires together because I wasnt sure if they were making contact in the plug. I thought maybe Chrysler changed the wiring on the later cars. I'll swap out some relays and see what happens. Thanks.


This trick hasn't worked on my R/T's either...always worked on all the 8v cars I've had though.

[fleckster]

I used it to recharge my Spirit's a/c shortly before SDAC-16. I admit I didn't use it to cool the engine, just to start the compressor to draw in the R134...

Snoogins!

[Dave]

:focus:

[91DSX]

The A/C fan trick also did not work for me: 8V and A/C totally removed?

[fleckster]

Bryan,

This is on topic since you listed in a method to make your TM "a track king."

I would guess that in removing the A/C system, somewhere, somehow, a connection is no longer made, completing the circuit and telling the computer to kick the fan on via the fan relay. I would be willing to bet that even though the low pressure switch my be bypassed, you still must have the a/c clutch switch done too. Then the cooling fan can be used for cooling in the pits, staging lanes, or on the return road.

[91DSX]

Hmm, Fleckster!

So I suppose an experiment of sorts is in order by possibly jumping the clutch switch as well, meaning the connector that once went to the A/C compressor? I hate sitting in the staging lanes waiting for my fan to turn off or on depending on what I'd like!

[Dave]

Okay buy a toggle switch at the hardware store (any kind will work). Wire one end to a 20 fuse in slot number 15, the other end gets wired directly into the fan's circuit. Easy enough?

I made this thread for folks to give advice on how to drag race, not how to cool their engine. Not to be a dick, but if you want to know how to use the A/C switch in use as a manual cooling fan switch, make another thread. Sorry if I'm being a little blunt here.

-Bryan

[Bubba]

My A/C switch turns my fan on...I have no A/C

[fleckster]

Okay buy a toggle switch at the hardware store (any kind will work). Wire one end to a 20 fuse in slot number 15, the other end gets wired directly into the fan's circuit. Easy enough?

I made this thread for folks to give advice on how to drag race, not how to cool their engine. Not to be a dick, but if you want to know how to use the A/C switch in use as a manual cooling fan switch, make another thread. Sorry if I'm being a little blunt here.

-Bryan

Bryan, YOU brought up the idea and this has where it has led. I don't want to use my fan for manual cooling, you suggested it. Others are having issues in what you suggested and we are trying to help them. They are trying to do it as you suggested by using the existing wiring and not have to go to the trouble of making a seperate manual circuit. To be honest, you are kind of being a dick and it looks to be directed at me as a Moderator.

[GLHSKEN]

Well handled John. Cooling at the track is an issue. I've always hated the ricey Ice bag routine and never used it. Nice to drip water all over the track.

Hey, didn't a skittle have an Ice bag fall out ON the TRACK and the SRT Nats meet???

[Marcus86GLHS]

i do use ice on my i/c (stock glhs unit) between runs but i agree it is poor manners to drip water in the staging lanes so what i did was purchase these industrial 12 mil thick zip-seal plastic bags and i put the ice in those bags cause as the ice melts the bags will not leak. i prepare 3-4 bags per event and just rotate them, works great. i carry an empty cooler in the hatch and when i'm say 3rd in line to run i throw the ice bag into the cooler and i'm ready to go with a chilled i/c.

[Tony Hanna]

To the traction side of things, in addition to the obvious stuff like slicks and a lsd, there are some fairly low cost but effective methods to improve traction.
One of the major ones is weight distribution between the front tires. If you're running a car with an open diff, it's really important. Most people aren't going to be able to move enough weight around to get it distributed evenly between both sides. A way to help with that is to use an air shock on the left rear to preload the right front.
Stiff rear suspension is another big one. Anything that can be done to help keep the weight from transfering backward on launch is a help. There's alot of good information floating around involving traction if a person wants to do a little digging.

[Dave]

Ken, that is why I say I put a towel down. Icing the intake helps tremendously!

John, not to stir anything up, but I don't care what your status is. It was going off topic. Forget about it, let's move on to showing people how to make their TM fast at the track.

Forward now... I know Warren has a sort of "bobble strut" that's connected from the back of the block to the K-frame. When the engine rocks backwards under a load it pushes down on the K-frame, and axles, and tires. I believe he's reported 1.6 60's. I don't know how streetable that would be.

Another note. I remember seeing someone installed adj. air shocks in the back and welded a brace on the trailing arm. At the track the air shocks could be pumped to max pressure or something of the sort, the shocks would then become inop. and the entire rear end would be supported by the brace and the only absorbtion would be the tires. Hard to explain, does anyone know what I'm referring too?

-Bryan

[Tony Hanna]

Another note. I remember seeing someone installed adj. air shocks in the back and welded a brace on the trailing arm. At the track the air shocks could be pumped to max pressure or something of the sort, the shocks would then become inop. and the entire rear end would be supported by the brace and the only absorbtion would be the tires. Hard to explain, does anyone know what I'm referring too?

-Bryan

Gary tried something similar except that he replaced the shocks with solid rods. http://www.thedodgegarage.com/traction.html
It's a little past halfway down the page.

[GLHSKEN]

And Gary recommends NOT using those rods. little value and a scarey ride.

Icing has never helped my car. A proper intercooler does.

[Skibbe]

Aluminum transfers heat so fast that I can't see pre-icing working at all. If you pull it off in the staging lanes, by the time you do a burnout and hit the line the intercooler will be back to normal temperature, and no cooler than if you left it alone. Same goes for the intake manifold.

It's not like you are icing a big chunk of metal that will retain its lack of heat energy. Most of the intercooler is thin sheet.

[Dave]

Ken, I'm very surprised it's never helped you.

I've always noticed when removing the ice bag and towel, both are very hot. I'm assuming the heat has transferred from the intake manifold and the ice has absorbed it through the towel. I'll have to do some comparisons next time at the track.

[Marcus86GLHS]

MIKE excellent point the coefficient of thermal conductivity of a typical i/c is very high, and its' mass is low so yes i agree the benefits of icing are slight......but......when you run a small stock i/c like i do you need all the help you can w/ 20 psi......and by keeping the ice on the car literally to just 3 minutes before the race begins that small reduction in i/c core temp makes a contribution......and i dont do any burnout i just roll to the line cold, my setup seems to work best that way.


of course those lucky TD's with big front mount i/c's can skip the ice that i agree with for sure.

[GLHSKEN]

Ken, I'm very surprised it's never helped you.

I've always noticed when removing the ice bag and towel, both are very hot. I'm assuming the heat has transferred from the intake manifold and the ice has absorbed it through the towel. I'll have to do some comparisons next time at the track.

Question here. Why are things being touted without comparison data???

No it hasn't helped me. I don't know a single racer running 12's or lower that sits in the lanes with an ice bag (well I guess you do marcus and you run 12's so now I know one ;) )

I didn't see any of the TM's at the SRT Nats with ice on their cars.

[Frank]

Ken, I'm very surprised it's never helped you.

I've always noticed when removing the ice bag and towel, both are very hot. I'm assuming the heat has transferred from the intake manifold and the ice has absorbed it through the towel. I'll have to do some comparisons next time at the track.

I with Ken and others. While it feels hot, the amount of heat you have removed is minimal... just look at the mass and density of the things you are cooling. The only things that help are alky injection or a IC sprayer right before the burn out box.

I may do some math later to support this based on how much ic is required to remove 1 deg F out of the block, etc.


Frank

[Speedeuphoria]

Just Say YES!
to Meth/Water injection

[csxtra]

With a good intercooler, you will see intake charge temps (as measured by the charge temp sensor) DROP during a 1/4 mile run, as the air flowing through the IC takes more heat out of the intercooler than the increased boost temps are adding. But with a marginal IC (such as a stocker), the temps will go UP as the IC doesn't flow enough and doesn't have enough thermal mass to prevent being overloaded with heat.

With my dual-stock core intercooler, I typically see the charge temps drop about 10 degrees during a 1/4 mile pass (at 28 psi of boost).

Now that I have added methanol injection (no water, just pure Methanol), I see the charge temps drop by about 25 degrees during a pass (25-26psi of boost).

I also have a datalog from Topeka of someone running a 10.80 @ 132.9, with a dual Porsche 944 cooler and straight methanol. His charge temps at the beginning of the pass were 132 degrees F, and at the end of the run, the charge temps were 107, a drop of 25 degrees (I'm not sure of the exact boost level, but lets just say it was over 29PSI because the 3 bar map was pegged at 5V).:thumb:

I've found from testing and logging, the way to keep temps low before a run is to run the fan while in the staging lanes to keep the engine temps under 190. Then, revving the engine some (2500 rpm or so) to run some cooler air through the intercooler helps to keep the intercooler from getting too heat-soaked.

Although an IC sprayer (or air to water Intercooler) would definitely help to remove heat soak from the intercooler.

[Frank]

I think that maybe a prestage alky nozzle before the IC would be interesting... meant only for non boost conditions. :) I think Warren could agree... mr syphon all my alk into the IC.


Frank

[csxtra]

I think that maybe a prestage alky nozzle before the IC would be interesting... meant only for non boost conditions. :) I think Warren could agree... mr syphon all my alky into the IC.

Hey!!!! I resemble that remark! :D

Funny, I had the same idea.

It got a bit boring on the drive out to Topeka, so I armed the Alky kit and watched my charge temps on the highway as I hit the prime/test button on my AlkyControl kit. At highway cruising speeds, I would press the button to spray alky until the Air Fuel Ratio hit 10:1 (or until the car started sputtering because it was too rich), then let it clear back to normal 14.7:1, then spray again, etc.

Before I started, my Intake Charge temps were 170 degrees F (105+ ambient temperatures). I did the spray thing on and off for a couple of minutes at most, and when I was done, the charge temps were in the 80's and stayed that way for 30 seconds or so before beginning to climb again. So this tells me that I basically cooled the intake manifold down to way less than 80 degrees.

At that point, I had a blinding flash of the obvious...a nozzle spraying alky before the IC could be used to pre-cool the IC before a run. The problem is the amount of alky needed to drop the temps that much requires a boatload of airflow to keep from drowning the engine in alcohol. (You'd have to be revving the crap out of your engine in the staging lanes to draw enough air in to keep the engine running).

If there was some other inexpensive liquid with a low boiling temperature and high latent heat of vaporization that wasn't flammable, toxic or corrosive, it would be sweet to spray on the exterior of the intercooler to cool it down. I thought of spraying Alky onto the outside of the IC, but that could be a bit dangerous (why is my airdam melting??).

Bryan (Dave), sorry to take your thread even further off topic, Frank, perhaps this should be moved to the Alky Injection section?

[GLHNSLHT2]

Centerforce Blows! Any non-Newbie knows that :)

[deuce dodge]

does it make sense to move the air filter to a cooler location and insulate intercooler to throttle body???

second is the traction trick of shimming sway bar "GUS" technique safe on street?

deuce

[GLHSKEN]

does it make sense to move the air filter to a cooler location and insulate intercooler to throttle body???

second is the traction trick of shimming sway bar "GUS" technique safe on street?

deuce

Gus's trrack trick is also a street trick... More so for the street. I ran that way for years. I pulled long posi tracks with an open diff. It simply shifts weight to the passenger side. no other handling is affected.

Any drop in intake charge temp is good. It is not a HUGE gain. Look at all the N/a cars. 3-5hp from a cold air intake. On my charger I do run a cone filter into the nose... With our cars it's more of a detonation preventer in my mind.

[cordes]

does it make sense to move the air filter to a cooler location and insulate intercooler to throttle body???

second is the traction trick of shimming sway bar "GUS" technique safe on street?

deuce

Insulating the IC pipe from the IC to the TB is a some what conrtoverisal topic. I think it all comes back to the cooling ability of the IC though. If the charge air coming out of the IC is at a lower temp than that of the engine compartment that it travels though, then it would seem to me that it would slow the heat transfer if one were to have the pipe insulated. Other wise, it would actually be preventing the charge air from shedding additional heat on the way to the TB.

ETA: Since the IC pipe will be realtivly the same temp as the engine bay, I don't really think that it would make much of a difference period since the air will be traveling though the pipe so fast. I don't think that there would be enough time for it to remove enough heat from the pipe to raise the charge air temp. It would probably cool the pipe durring the duration of the run, but not enough heat transfer at any given moment to raise the CAT.

[Tony Hanna]

I don't really think that it would make much of a difference period since the air will be traveling though the pipe so fast. I don't think that there would be enough time for it to remove enough heat from the pipe to raise the charge air temp.

I think that's a sound theory and I've seen it supported elsewhere. The lt1 camaro guys recomend moving the air temp sensor farther upstream in the intake plumbing. The reason being that it heatsoaks badly in it's stock location and by moving it to a cooler area, it's reading closer to the true temperature of the air. This was questioned and the general response was that the air moves fast enough that the ammount of heat transfer through the intake plumbing is minimal.:thumb:

[Dave]

That makes me wonder about wrapping the intercooler pipes. I'm using 2.5" aluminum pipes. Aluminum naturally for some reason is very prone to the temperatures around it. It disapates and absorbs heat very well. Now, hypotheticaly, if I were to say, wrap the upper intercooler hose would I gain anything from doing so? Would it benefit from not absorbing the engine bay's heat, but at the same time still benefit by retaining the temperature inside the pipe?

I'm not up to testing it, me thinks my polished pipes are saxxey. :p

But I must note, going from the stock turbo and intercooler setup, I noticed a fanominal (hehe big words) gain from upgrading to the T3/T04E and Mishimoto front mount. At 15psi it's faster than it's ever been at 20psi. Way less heat expansion from the turbo, much more efficient on the exhaust side, and the intercooler is far more efficient as well.

Frank, that would be cool to see some numbers from how much heat is absorbed through icing.

Ken, I've always iced my intakes. I dunno why. lol Maybe my dad got me started on it. As soon as I take it to the track, I'll do back to back, and try to keep everything consistant.

I do believe my dad noted while making repetative runs, and when he didn't have time to ice the intake, it vapor-locked. I know this happened in our 1990 Spirit while doing excessive bracket racing. But...... that really doesn't support my point at all. Just figured I'd mention it.


Wait here we go! :thumb:
http://www.sdac.org/sdac_photo_pages/sdac16_drag/images/7217022.jpg

[Frank]

Well icing an intake to keep from vapor locking the fuel is something that is useful.


Frank

[Dave]

Ah, so it does help, am I right? It does keep things cool. Perhaps it doesn't remove a significant amount of temperature from the intake manifold, but it DOES help.

[GLHSKEN]

IF your car has an issue with vapor locking. Then you can START it. It provides little to NO effect going down the strip. Even less the faster you run.

[Mario]

"hehe big words"....That you can't spell. PHENOMENAL

[Dave]

Mario, it was 2 in the morning! lol I used to frequent spelling bees when I was a kid. But that's for another thread, but to the madness!

[Mario]

Also, what does showing a picture of a Viper with ice on its intake prove?

[GLHSKEN]

Also, what does showing a picture of a Viper with ice on its intake prove?


LOL Nothing!!! The air is moving sooooo fast through those areas, Ice is literally doing nothing. Properly sizing the turbo and intercooler negate everything

[Mario]

LOL Nothing!!! The air is moving sooooo fast through those areas, Ice is literally doing nothing. Properly sizing the turbo and intercooler negate everything

I know...that's why I asked.

Alright, smartass is done here.

[turbovanman²]

Funny thing, at the strip on Friday night, they said anyone caught with ice on there engines going down the strip will be removed immediatley, and no, not the ice, ;)

Gus's shimming works awesome.

I have wondered about wrapping the upper IC pipe, mostly for around town and to stop the heat soak from the temps under the hood when tooling around. Now I have alky, I don't care anymore.

Agreed Ken, moving the air filter out of the engine bay works wonders, sucking in hot air makes the air hotter and IC work harder.

[Frank]

I think it would require close to a gallon of solid ice to drop the temp of the block from 212degF to 180degF negating the fact that the ice will melt and evaporate to atmosphere, cool the atmosphere, the water that runs down the block will help cool, water will run off the block before it can cool, and all kinds of other inefficincies...

this is all rough equations and weird assumptions to get to a guestimation. point still stands.... wont do much.

alky injection or and intercooler sprayer are by far the most helpful thing. another trick is to get a huge garden/bug sprayer like below and fill it up with ice and water and spray down the intercooler. it is far more effective....
http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/034411/034411112007md.jpg

[Tony Hanna]

Frank,
What temperature does gasoline boil at at atmospheric pressure and at 40 psi? I'm curious about the vaporlocking mentioned above. I was under the assumption that vaprolocking was prettymuch impossible on a fuel injected car due to the high fuel pressure and the return line setup keeping relatively cool fuel circulating from the tank.

[86Shelby]

I'd rather just finish the sheetmetal shield for the intake to shield it from the radiant heat of the exhaust manifold. I would imagine there would be greater benefits of that than just icing.

[Frank]

Frank,
What temperature does gasoline boil at at atmospheric pressure and at 40 psi? I'm curious about the vaporlocking mentioned above. I was under the assumption that vaprolocking was prettymuch impossible on a fuel injected car due to the high fuel pressure and the return line setup keeping relatively cool fuel circulating from the tank.

I dont think I can do those equations... was never good with thermodynamics. However I think the real reasoning you are looking for is that if you get vapor bubbles in the rail due to excessive heat in the rail after shutting it off, then it should not be a concern on EFI motors because the high fuel pressure when the motor is keyed on will force the vapor out of the system and into the combustion chamber. On a carbed car or with a suction type fuel pump, it is different. Then add to the fact that you have alot of return line setups which help cycle the fuel thru the rail.


Frank

[Frank]

I'd rather just finish the sheetmetal shield for the intake to shield it from the radiant heat of the exhaust manifold. I would imagine there would be greater benefits of that than just icing.

While radiant heat at the header is higher then block temperatures, the block/head's coolant system keeps the engine componenets at similar temperatures because the coolant efficency is better then the heat absorbtion thru air. It does help, but dont beat yourself up on it.


Frank

[Tony Hanna]

I dont think I can do those equations... was never good with thermodynamics. However I think the real reasoning you are looking for is that if you get vapor bubbles in the rail due to excessive heat in the rail after shutting it off, then it should not be a concern on EFI motors because the high fuel pressure when the motor is keyed on will force the vapor out of the system and into the combustion chamber. On a carbed car or with a suction type fuel pump, it is different. Then add to the fact that you have alot of return line setups which help cycle the fuel thru the rail.


Frank

Makes sense though I have a feeling that (providing it doesn't leak down) the fuel pressure in the system would actually keep the fuel in the rail from boiling in the first place.

[turbovanman²]

Makes sense though I have a feeling that (providing it doesn't leak down) the fuel pressure in the system would actually keep the fuel in the rail from boiling in the first place.

Thats why the return type systems work well, they force boiling fuel out and replace it with much cooler fuel so vapour lock on a an EFI engine is usually impossible or very rare.

[Tony Hanna]

Thats why the return type systems work well, they force boiling fuel out and replace it with much cooler fuel so vapour lock on a an EFI engine is usually impossible or very rare.
Right, I understand that (mentioned it in my first post).:thumb:

What I was wanting to do was set aside the benefits of the return line setup for the sake of discussion and look at it strictly from a pressure vs. boiling point perspective. We know that the more pressure you put on a liquid, the higher the temperature has to be to cause it to change phase (boil or turn to vapor, whichever you prefer). It seems to me that the high fuel pressure most efi engines run would eliminate the possibility of vapor lock based on that alone. That's why I asked about the pressure vs. boiling temperature of gasoline. Just wanted to see if my theory held true.:)

[Frank]

Vapor lock doesnt happen when the car is running... typically. It happens because the fuel has stopped flowing, so on an EFI, the fuel system is no longer pressurized.

[Tony Hanna]

Vapor lock doesnt happen when the car is running... typically. It happens because the fuel has stopped flowing, so on an EFI, the fuel system is no longer pressurized.

I could swear that the last car I had a guage on held it's pressure even after the engine was shut off. I was under the impression that the pump had a checkvalve?

[Frank]

I thought that also and half the time it tends to be the case on my car, but everyonce in a while it drops off.... so I am just saying that it can't be gaurnteed... maybe the check valve is at fault.


Frank

[Tony Hanna]

I hear ya. I guess the only way to know for sure would be to pressurize a vessel with gasoline in it, apply heat, and measure the temperature when it starts to boil. I'm really not in the mood to blow myself up though so I'll stick with an unproven theory.

[turbovanman²]

Yes, the fuel pump has a check valve in it to keep residual pressure. Even if it bleeds off, a good pump will prime within 2 secs and force the warm or vapourized gas out the return line.

[cordes]

I agree with Tony Zs assessment of the fuel pressure preventing the boiling. I know that my cars will hold about 20-30PSI residual pressure all day in a track situation where one would be in and out of the car. That must really put the boiling point up there.

Also, I cant see using ice at all, but dry ice at -109*F might have a decent effect on temps of the IC if you could readily set it on there for a time with good surface area contact. That would be a pretty tall order for most of us though. The fact that dry ice gives off co2 (obviously) is the main thing I don't like about it.

[turbovanman²]

Now what about leaving ice in the cold air box?

[cordes]

Now what about leaving ice in the cold air box?

I have been thinking about the wraping of IC piping, CAI piping etc., and I just don't think that there is enough time for the air to be cooled or heated up significantly given the speed and distance it is travleing in such a short ammount of time. So, I would suggest that ice in the cold air box could not hurt, but that you probably would not see any real world gains.

[Tony Hanna]

I always figured if you wanted to do some serious cooling of the air, why not build a pressure vessel around an intercooler and fill it with something that acts as a refrigerant? A solenoid valve could be used to bleed the refrigerant off to maintain the temperature at whatever you wanted (ever see a propane bottle frost up from using it quickly?). It would probably be expensive to use, but if you set it up right you should be able to get air temps well below ambient. 80* air after the turbo on a 90* day. How nice would that be?

[cordes]

Yeah, I always thought it would be nice to have some sort of an IC tank that you could install at the track which would allow you to bathe the IC in dry ice water. There are many problems with doing that, so I have not even tried to get that going yet. It sure would be nice though.

[Tony Hanna]

Yeah, I always thought it would be nice to have some sort of an IC tank that you could install at the track which would allow you to bathe the IC in dry ice water. There are many problems with doing that, so I have not even tried to get that going yet. It sure would be nice though.

I'd definately be interested to hear how it works out if you end up doing it.

Sounds like it would be a little easier than my idea since the details for mine would be a bear. Finding something to use as a refrigerant that won't piss the EPA off when you vent it, isn't flammable, and isn't too expensive, plus finding an intercooler core that would put up with the pressure.:confused:

[cordes]

I'd definately be interested to hear how it works out if you end up doing it.

Sounds like it would be a little easier than my idea since the details for mine would be a bear. Finding something to use as a refrigerant that won't piss the EPA off when you vent it, isn't flammable, and isn't too expensive, plus finding an intercooler core that would put up with the pressure.:confused:

Yeah, the dry ice would be nice since it is non-toxic, and the pressure could easily be vented with some sort of a pressure relief, or check valve even since pressure would not be necessary for its opporation. I think that the main thing would be the design of the end tanks of the IC should you want it to be removable. Lord know you would not want to be laying down water at the track with such a contraption.

[Tony Hanna]

Yeah, the dry ice would be nice since it is non-toxic, and the pressure could easily be vented with some sort of a pressure relief, or check valve even since pressure would not be necessary for its opporation. I think that the main thing would be the design of the end tanks of the IC should you want it to be removable. Lord know you would not want to be laying down water at the track with such a contraption.

I think the trick there would be to have a dedicated setup for the track. That way you could weld the tank to the intercooler and not have to worry about leaks. You could then swap between that and an air-to-air intercooler for the street. A nice way to do it would be to set it up so that both coolers use the same plumbing and mounts to make swapping back and forth quick and easy.

[SwiftTech]

Dry ice works wonders provided you can get it to stay on the intercooler, the dc intercooler is perfect for it.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_0501.jpg

[fleckster]

The fact that dry ice gives off co2 (obviously) is the main thing I don't like about it.

What's the matter with CO2?

[cordes]

What's the matter with CO2?

I mainly don't like it in an application were the gas can be picked up by the CAI etc. It does not burn, and I have heard many anicdotal reports of guys spraying co2 before a run and sucking it up only to have performane decrease at the beginning of the run.

That is the main reason why I would not use it in the CAI box. I would certainly use it in an application like the DC IC posted above though. That looks sweet.

[Mario]

What's the matter with CO2?

Besides robbing horsepower if it gets sucked through your intake?

[fleckster]

Besides robbing horsepower if it gets sucked through your intake?

I missed the idea of leaving on the car while making a pass. I was just under the impression you guys were talking about cooling the car down the in the pits. Then it wouldn't be sucked into the intake. That's why I didn't understand the problem with CO2. I was wondering if it was like a tree-hugging hippy thing with CO2 as a green house gas or somesuch rubbish.

[turbovanman²]

I missed the idea of leaving on the car while making a pass. I was just under the impression you guys were talking about cooling the car down the in the pits. Then it wouldn't be sucked into the intake. That's why I didn't understand the problem with CO2. I was wondering if it was like a tree-hugging hippy thing with CO2 as a green house gas or somesuch rubbish.


I was suggesting on a setup like mine, you could leave bag or 2 of ice in there and it would act as a precooler for the air. It would be zip locked so no leaking. I might try it next time out.

[Speedeuphoria]

I saw some vids(I think it was from Getaway in Stockholm) where they sprayed the fmic w/ a fire exstinguisher on the starting line. It would probley negate the effects by being drawn in.. I think if you did it in the pits it may work but by the time you get to staging it may be a wash(someone try it;) )

[Tony Hanna]

I saw some vids(I think it was from Getaway in Stockholm) where they sprayed the fmic w/ a fire exstinguisher on the starting line. It would probley negate the effects by being drawn in.. I think if you did it in the pits it may work but by the time you get to staging it may be a wash(someone try it;) )

CO2 fire extinguisher: Worlds fastest way to chill a beer. Most expensive too.
Gotta love Mythbusters. :thumb:

[Frank]

Ya I think your best bet at this point is a jug of ice water and spraying your IC.

[contraption22]

I mainly don't like it in an application were the gas can be picked up by the CAI etc. It does not burn, and I have heard many anicdotal reports of guys spraying co2 before a run and sucking it up only to have performane decrease at the beginning of the run.

That is the main reason why I would not use it in the CAI box. I would certainly use it in an application like the DC IC posted above though. That looks sweet.


That's where those n20 intercooler sprayers would be ideal, if they work. I don't think they work well enough to have an entire nitrous kit used just to spray nitrous on the cooler, but if you have a nitrous kit anyway, you might as well have your purge spraying on the intercooler.

[Dave]

Maybe I'm still trying to defend my point here, but we all know and worship Gary Donovan. I'm sure he wouldn't have mentioned icing the intake if it didn't help.

Line #12.

http://thedodgegarage.com/turbo_tricks.html

Frank, I agree that spraying down the intercooler helps a lot. After a pass I soaked my TII i/c down with the track's garden hose and I noted that it helped a good bit.

[Frank]

Maybe I'm still trying to defend my point here, but we all know and worship Gary Donovan. I'm sure he wouldn't have mentioned icing the intake if it didn't help.

Line #12.

http://thedodgegarage.com/turbo_tricks.html

Frank, I agree that spraying down the intercooler helps a lot. After a pass I soaked my TII i/c down with the track's garden hose and I noted that it helped a good bit.

He didnt say it was effective on our cars... he said its a trick used by racers. It has been a great trick for racers... I just doubt its effect on our cars to the degree wish it did.

12) A bag of ice on the intake manifold between passes has been an effective trick of racers for years...

Of course this is me talking from my desk.... so Bryan, go give it a try sometime... 2 equal setups.... with and without ice! :)

[Dave]

Pops said he's willing to do it. My car is far too inconsistent to try. Traction is not my buddy. In the Turbo Acclaim it's more consistent... T1, stock turbo, w/ T2 i/c, 14psi, open DP, good trans. That's about it.

[GLHSKEN]

Gary is a good friend (talk to him often). I've never seen him ice the intake on his car. Gary was also against injection to stop pinging... Old timers will remember the word "crutch". Alchy injection is now proven to work well. It still depends on the basic tune of the car.

No one worships him. He is a friend to many on the board. I do things "counter" to what the dodge garage says in my set-ups all the time.

[turbovanman²]

Alky is king, just need to get ahold of Devils Own and get my checkvalve.

[Tony Hanna]

Gary is a good friend (talk to him often). I've never seen him ice the intake on his car. Gary was also against injection to stop pinging... Old timers will remember the word "crutch". Alchy injection is now proven to work well. It still depends on the basic tune of the car.

No one worships him. He is a friend to many on the board. I do things "counter" to what the dodge garage says in my set-ups all the time.

Speaking of Gary, I wonder if he's going to start racing the Reliant again in the future? I check the updates on his site from time to time hoping to see something about it. That's an awsome car, and Gary's a heck of a guy for making all that information available on his site. I know it's helped me alot. Hopefully one day I'll get a chance to meet him and say thanks.

[Dave]

Worship was more of a symbolic word I was using for him. He has great ideas. You can't doubt he's revolutionized the TM world. I think him and Gus really got the aftermarket TM community rolling.

Ugh, anyways, moving on. We're going racing Wednesday. I'll post the results afterwards.