12 Valve 3.0L Montero working on going to single turbo.

[TainterRacing]

The Back ground first. I have been working/playing with turbo 2.6 4g54 for 13 years.

The Montero is a 1997 That i just did a motor swap in. I want to turbo it not to make it fast just so it can tow better.

The Motor has about 30k on it since I rebuilt it. I ported the heads and port matched all the manifolds. Other then that it is all stock.

The Plan put a cheep t3t4 from e-bay on it.
Need to figure how to get the manifolds connected. The rear wheel drive has a y pipe. I want to find out if I have the room to run it like the Fwd setup is. I need to know how far from the back of the block to the farthest point of from the block. I will make headers if i must but I would like to run the stock manifolds if I could.

If I could have any of you try to measure how far off the block that pipe runs over the tranny is that would be a great help.

[Sundance 6g72]

cx racing ebay account is who i got ny ebay turbo on. it still works. i would stick to them for your cheep turbo needs. they also make very nice budget intercooler kits if yoy want to stay cheep in that area. mine works well.



distance between the block and crossover pipe? ill see what i can do.



you should make sure fueling and tuning is taken care of first. im not sure what type of fuel pumps are available to you gm 3800sc injectors can be used for cheep from a junkyard if you want to. i use them. they are high impedence.

---------- Post added at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------

your lucky you want low end power, stock cams are what you want. we all like to uograde to big cams for our little cars

[Mdoe8]

I would shy away from the ebay turbo and find a nice holset or similar. They are bullet proof and can be had for the same price. You don't need anything big as you're going for low end grunt. Perhaps an hx35 or hx40 would fit the bill. The ebay turbo's have gotten a lot better than they used to be though. If you're set on an ebay turbo, my buddy has a T61 that he's selling very cheap. Used for 8k miles without a hiccup on his supra.

Definitely go with ebay for the intercooler setup. These have been proven many many times over that they are very capable. I myself have used them on two of my 600hp cars.

Also, don't go cheap on the wastegate (if you're going external). Find a used tial or similar. The ebay ones will always eventually freeze up on you which can lead to catosrophic failure.

[Sundance 6g72]

yeah, before you buy the turbo check around for a locally used one or look on the cummins forums and see whats available. turbo dodge guys love holsets so that should make it easy to find one. that was my plan at the time but i got lazy :P

[Mdoe8]

Amen to lazyness :)

[turbovanman²]

I have an HY35 and HE351VGT for sale, :nod:

[Sundance 6g72]

how does one go about setting up a engine to be turbo and make low end power without running out of breath up top?

sequential turbos anyone?

[Mdoe8]

Stock cams, smallish turbo. No need for sequentials. A turbo will still have enough oomph up top if properly sized as well.

[Ondonti]

I have not tried towing yet with my He341 Holset but I think it would be pretty happy with all that extra load. Is this an auto trans? Hilly area? 3.0 doesn't seen to need help towing if you downshift on even very large hills. You do have to beat on the engine up large grades (high rpms) but thats probably safer then low boost and low rpms. That said, I want low rpms, boost, and car towing ability so thats what I went with.

I would megasquirt for optimal towing experience. Timing needs to be carefully controlled when towing, especially with boost. My Spirit with bad headgasket (already leaking combustion slowly for years) blew out completely during my 2nd tow of a car through the 2nd to last mountain pass. I am sure its from knock. I was being very hard on the motor because it was fun.

[Mdoe8]

I was being very hard on the motor because it was fun.

Sounds like fun

[TainterRacing]

The montero is 4475lbs empty weight. It had a DOHC 3.5L in there (200hp) I plan on towing about 3500lbs. I will be doubling the radiator capacity. Adding a 2nd tranny cooler with a fan. I was going to put a 4g54 2.6L 4cly Turbo in there. But I put the 12valve 3.0 as it at lest bolted to the tranny. Was a real pain in the but tho. The power I am looking for is about 60HP+ and about 100Tq+ Is what I am wanting to get. I was thinking boost to be about 6-8psi The montero is 4475lbs empty weight. It had a DOHC 3.5L in there (200hp) I plan on towing about 3500lbs. I will be doubling the radiator capacity. Adding a 2nd tranny cooler with a fan. I was going to put a 4g54 2.6L 4cly Turbo in there. But I put the 12valve 3.0 as it at lest bolted to the tranny. Was a real pain in the but tho. The power I am looking for is about 60HP+ and about 100Tq+ Is what I am wanting to get. I was thinking boost to be about 6-8psi Power band I want is about 2500rpms-4500rpms The motor is 8:9:1 comp now. And yes it is an auto as well. I thought I read some where that the 4G54 valves can be made to work in the 12valve heads. any of you know any thing about that? As for the turning I am not yet sure what I want to do I might just run a MAFT on it and I will be putting on s wide band as well. Thanks for all the help guys and the more I look I think I might just have to make my own headers. I need to keep the pipe very tight to the block. So do you think I can do what I am looking to do or am I going to have this thing eating head gasket.

[Sundance 6g72]

can you run a translator like the dsm guys do?

i think the stock 4g54 valves can be made to work but dont quote me. brent will know for sure.

6-8psi should get you where you need to be. with a somewhat early spooling turbo youl be right in the cams powerband.

tq tends to have a very flat curve and then peak at about 4500rpms or so.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253791_10150260606898899_534573898_8688963_8217905 _n.jpg

what intake manifold are you using? most of our gains come from running a bigger throttle body and porting our intake along with a big 3inch exhaust. Thats the easiest way to make quick power but you might have a different intake setup to start with. pics?

[TainterRacing]

Here are some pics I have the wiring cleaned up now but you get an idea of what it looks like. I am about 95% sure I can run a MAFT I have the same Mass air plug that they do. I will at frist run a 2.5in to the stock 2.25 In Tell it rust out more than I will run a open 2.5in or 3in. I know I have a diff type of intake mine is just like the 87-91 Mustang 5.0's. Is that your dyno?

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/12127/IMG_0828_5BHDTV_28720295D.JPG


http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/12127/IMG_0829_5BHDTV_28720295D.JPG

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/12127/IMG_0830_5BHDTV_28720295D.JPG

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/12127/IMG_0831_5BHDTV_28720295D.JPG

[Sundance 6g72]

crazy looking!

where do you plan on running the turbo?

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------

yes that is my dynorun with open 3inch exhaust, ported upper intake, 52mm throttle body, stock timing.

[Ondonti]

I would run a 180 degree stat to keep your cooling system ahead of heat increases. I was running a 192 stat when towing because I wanted more heat for the cabin.
I would leave the cams alone and not bother with the 4g54 valves if you are looking for low rpm hp.
For pure towing you might look at a smaller turbo then the Holsets. Those are just starting to kick up at 2000 rpms and don't spool hard until 2500. Extra weight will make it spool lower.

[TainterRacing]

The reson I said any thing about the valves I have lots laying around. I might see if I can get a trashed head to work on putting some of the 4g54 valves in and porting it. As for getting a smaller turbo I am not sure I want to get one thats to small. If I can get boost at 2500 that will be great.

I plan on putting the trubo on the passenger side its hard to tell but there is alot of room there.

[Sundance 6g72]

how would you run both manifolds to the turbo? just curious. its weird seeing a different layout, i wouldnt know where to start.

[TainterRacing]

The driver side manifold I will run it over the back of the tranny and run it in to the turbo. It looks like it will be about 250 to make the headers for it. So I might even looking making it twin turbo. But most of the time TT is going to be a good deal more $ then a single.

[Sundance 6g72]

i dont like the idea of custom twin turbo.. to much of a headache

i wanna see this happen though!

[Ondonti]

Holset would be fine if you are not looking for response but just want boost at 2500. It will just take a second.

The 4g54 valves are longer so you need a reduced base circle cam or some other type of fix.

[TainterRacing]

I saw the 4g54 is about .3in longer then the 6g72 ones. MMM wonder how close the mech rockers would be to working.

[Ondonti]

I saw the 4g54 is about .3in longer then the 6g72 ones. MMM wonder how close the mech rockers would be to working.
You will still need a smaller base circle. The longer valves might prevent the rockers from sliding off the valve stem by changing the points at which the adjusterslides on the valve stem but maybe not. They do not work over the long term if they slide off the valve stem...at least on my big cams. Long term = 1 oil change :P

[TainterRacing]

Did you try running any of the 4g54 rockers? I know they fit the shafts.

[Sundance 6g72]

the rockers he tried using were solid lifter from a mitsu 1.5 4cyl i think. it had 2 intake valves and 1 exhaust valve.

[Ondonti]

Did you try running any of the 4g54 rockers? I know they fit the shafts.

Yes, the statement I made above is based on me being the first and only known to run them. They function but they self destruct because they are a little too short (1.5 rocker ratio vs 1.6 oem) and they are a smaller angle. They fall off the valve stem at full lift. I only tried this with a big cam because a stock cam would not be able to use them since the base circle is too large. The less base circle you have, the less likely the rocker would slide off the valve stem because you would get the angle of the rocker more like OEM. They also have to be clearanced a bunch unless you have enough base circle removed or beehive springs (small retainer) or both.

[Sundance 6g72]

wait what about the 1.5 mitsu engine rockerS?

[Ondonti]

wait what about the 1.5 mitsu engine rockerS?

Oh, I guess there is a bit of a disconnect here. 4g54 rockers are slider rockers which ALSO came on 3.0L 87 year motors and I don't know what year they stopped. I have a set but they are 1.4:1 ratio so they are a HUGE downgrade.
What I laugh about is that Starion guys don't even seem to realize that 1.6:1 roller rockers exist.

[Sundance 6g72]

maybe you should go onto starquest and let them know :P

[TainterRacing]

1.6 rockers don't work so well for the 4g54. The lifters can pupmp up at high rpms will not let them close.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Why not remachine the top of the valves so they are shorter?

There was a roller rockers for the 4g54 just not in the USA. Got to go down under to get the good stuff :)

[Ondonti]

1.6 rockers don't work so well for the 4g54. The lifters can pupmp up at high rpms will not let them close.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Why not remachine the top of the valves so they are shorter?

There was a roller rockers for the 4g54 just not in the USA. Got to go down under to get the good stuff :)
So they just need to convert the hydraulic lifter to solid. Quite a few of us want to try that. Weird that they pump up too much. They collapse in 3.0s. Probably because the clearances are preloaded when you put in a 1.6 rocker. What is the highest a 4g54 has been reved?

[TainterRacing]

I cant say what the highest they reved. I know some guys do more then 8500. But I will say not high... Most never see more then 7K. I know some guys do more then 8500 A good stock oil pump will at about 6k be pushing 95psi+ Oil pressure.

[Vigo]

I believe that's what a regulator valve is for.

[TainterRacing]

What is the stock crossover manifold pipe inside diameter?

[Sundance 6g72]

i can check for you later when im out of work.. i have one sitting in my garage

[Ondonti]

I believe that's what a regulator valve is for.
Or a simple restrictor. Thats all the srt-4 heads need to stop from over pumping.

3.0 pumps oil pressure dump works fine :P

[Vigo]

3.0 pumps oil pressure dump works fine :P

Thats what i was talking about. There should be a spring in there you can modify or replace to bring that high rpm pressure down.

[Ondonti]

I actually put a washer in (sometimes) to up the idle pressure because sometimes they don't seat tightly enough.

[TainterRacing]

I never got in to working on the lower end of the motor. I have always taking it to a shop for the short block. With that said.... I have a very low Idle on the 3.0 8-9psi at Idle. Next time I work on it will be sure to address that. It sounds like the lifters collapse at idle.

I should have asked this up at the top. What I am wanting is a turbo that’s going to make full boost at about 2600-2800rpms. I will likely use a external wastegate set to about 6-7psi. I am trying to do this right now for the turbo about as cheap as I can. $$ is very tight right now. The power I am looking for is about 210-230hp with a lot of tq. I am in the 8.9:1 comp motor that stock makes 143hp@5000rpms. I don’t know if its the same cam as any of you so I realize it might be hard to know what would be best. I was thinking a t3t4 with a .63 ar and stage 3 wheel would spool fast. I believe that’s the same turbo as Sundance6g72 is using. Should I run a larger turbo? I can also make is in to a split tag manifold for it as well. I am going to try not to run an IC on it as I don’t every plan on running more then the 6-7psi max.

Thanks so much Matt

[Sundance 6g72]

this is what im running. take it as it is LMFAO

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=TRB-T3T4-V

they dont tell you much and i dont get full boost until like 4000rpms but with that said, i have big intercooler piping, probebly an exhaust leak and an intake leak that im too lazy to check right now. sorry

[TainterRacing]

I bet your wastagate is leaking a good deal I think you will realy like the new one your getting on there.

[Ondonti]

Well the thing about full boost is that 6 pounds of boost can happen 1000 rpms before 20psi.
My question would be how soon do you want to build that boost assuming RPMs stay the same. Response time. Put a 5 speed transmission into 5th gear and you can make whatever boost you see at 3000 rpms...at 2000 rpms thanks to all the load. It will take awhile.

Stage 3 turbine in a .63 would probably have you pretty happy. I have never run a turbo that small to say. Manifolds will also be important in determining how well your turbo responds. Crap manifolds will require a smaller turbine (and decrease power gains).

[TainterRacing]

Well now say I am driving at 55mph. In OD I am at about 2400rpms. I come up to a hill and then It will start to drop speed and have to shift in to 3nd to keep speed up. I want to have some power in Lower rpms so it don’t shift out of OD every time I see a hill.

Background on the motor/montero This 3.0 was in a older montero. Was 500lbs less and had 4.64 gears. Now its 500lbs more weight and 4.27 gears and on top of that I have a stall that’s about 125-150rpms less then it was. And I all so run over sized tires. I am running the stock ecu for the tranny as its ECU controlled. It is setup for a motor that has 57HP & 60tq more then the 3.0 I have in there now.+ The Plan is get new tires Stock sized ones will know about 2in off in height. What I am looking for is to make it even or a bit better like 80hp and tq more.

Manifolds..... I wanted to make a nice set of SS manifolds Shc.40. But after looking in to it just parts will be pushing $400. So I am going to see what it will be if I run the stock manifolds. Modified..... Stock FWD manifolds both side. And stock crossover pipe. But to get them in there the crossover pipe. As to be very tight to the block. I will have to cut out a bit on both manifolds and get the pipe to line back up and re-wield the cast Iron. I know its a pain to wield the cast iron I have done it before and had it work for years. Then I will Slap a t3 flange on the passenger side manifold and box it on there how I want it and make a place for a 38mm Wastegate as well. I know that’s going to be one sucky manifold setup. But I am not looking to make a lot of power. But I think I will have a lot of back pressure and might get it to spool up nice and fast. I know its not going to pull much at high rpms but I will all most never rev more then 4.5K any how. Do you think this might work? If not I might just stay N/A do some good ex and maybe get some new cams off a car on this. And call it good. Any help would be great!

[Sundance 6g72]

problem with an auto is that it will downshift when more throttle is applied. in order to get boost, you have to give it some throttle. Do you have a way to keep the tranny locked in gear?

the small turbo will be fine as long as you never need to actually rev that high. The shelby model of the 3.0 had too small a turbo and i guess it ran out of steam before 5500rpms and made it a crap setup

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/384612_10150533181823899_534573898_10480685_264162 967_n.jpg

sadly, i dont know the specs of said turbo.

[TainterRacing]

It realy dont want to down shift that ezly. I need to push it down like 30-40% down for it to kick down. I have it set right as well the kick down cable. And I do have a button to hold the tranny in gear I am not sure if I can use it in OD tho. I think it only works for the 1-3 I will test it next time I drive it.

[Mdoe8]

Sounds like you need a supercharger

[TainterRacing]

I have thought about that as well. The big thing is they still will be more then what I can do a turbo setup for. I think I can get the turbo on there for less then $500.

[Mdoe8]

Yeah completely understand. Supercharging can be expensive if you don't fab a lot of your own parts.

[RoadWarrior222]

Well now say I am driving at 55mph. In OD I am at about 2400rpms. I come up to a hill and then It will start to drop speed and have to shift in to 3nd to keep speed up. I want to have some power in Lower rpms so it don’t shift out of OD every time I see a hill.

Hmmm, it saves the tranny though, lug an auto and it will die.... and also a case of "why be afraid of RPM?" as long as it's not screaming at 4500+ for long periods, 3500 to get up hills ain't nothing.

[Sundance 6g72]

especialy for the 3.0

[Mdoe8]

I must say a remote mounted roots type blower would be a fun project! A gtp blower should get the job done and can be had dirt cheap. You should do it! :) Can even run an FMIC if you remote mount it! See pics below for what I mean.

http://www.dragonrace.com/integral%20web%20pics/promophoto%20copy.jpg


http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/185922_10150442793660026_873030025_17600359_119135 4_n.jpg

[Sundance 6g72]

would an a543 5spd swap be out of the question?

[RoadWarrior222]

quite likely, this would be an RWDish setup, might find a manual trans in a Ram50 or MightMax.

[paduster]

i have found the super coupe supercharger for like 150 to 300 depending on how much comes with it and sometimes ready to go and put on. and with it being a truck and needing it down low boost with a supercharger would be the best in my opinion.

[Sundance 6g72]

quite likely, this would be an RWDish setup, might find a manual trans in a Ram50 or MightMax.:mad: forgot !

[TainterRacing]

i have found the super coupe supercharger for like 150 to 300 depending on how much comes with it and sometimes ready to go and put on. and with it being a truck and needing it down low boost with a supercharger would be the best in my opinion.

Ya I was looking at them as well I think it still might be a bit more. I would want to get one that’s been rebuilt and would yet have to make an intake and then I would need to get a new belt as well. A supercharger is going to eat up the fuel. With the turbo you can get a bit better MPG.

[Sundance 6g72]

yeah turbo is nice. while i dont like how laggy mine is acting right now, its nice to have a car drive like its stock until you put your foot down.

[Mdoe8]

yeah turbo is nice. while i dont like how laggy mine is acting right now, its nice to have a car drive like its stock until you put your foot down.

Your car has duct tape holding the intercooler piping together though, you should be happy it's boosting at all! :)

[Sundance 6g72]

dude i know right. even when i have it done right, i might wrap it in duct tape any ways.. that way people will feel even worse about losing to me !! HAHAHA

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

the thing is, if it caused it to not boost.. i would have fixed it by now. lazy american right hurr..

[Ondonti]

If you go with the crappier manifold setup then just drop the turbo size a bit. My real worry with a small turbo is controlling boost pressure when the 3.0 wants to scream. Especially with all that weight.
I don't see the need for a supercharger here, I just don't use turbo's that small because I want my fun just starting at the rpms he wants to give up at. The Shelby setup worked fine, you just have to shift at 5k and run a lot of boost to make up for the lack of RPMs if high power is what you wanted. Tire burner for sure.