Which boost button stage cal is equal to fwd stage 5? also fuel/injector question?

[moparmikehunt]

so yeah, just wondering which stage cal is equal to fwd stage 5, and also when it says premium fuel required,could I still run regular on that cal provided I don't boost too high? or at all? like say I got stuck in a pinch driving somewhere and had no choice but to run crap fuel? can I still do it or should I just keep the stock injectors and stock ecu with me and do the swap at the pump? also I need a definitive answer on 2g dsm 450cc injectors, from my math they equal to +20's not +40's as some say. trying to figure out for sure.thanks guys.

[ShelGame]

I don't have one equal to the FWD stage 5. I wanted to wait and see if the S.2-S.4 needed anything before I finished up the S.5.

In vacuum the cal is close to stock, but with a little more timing. Even if you stay out of boost, you might get some knock, but the computer should be able to reatrd the timing enough so that it shouldn't be damaging - as long as you stay out of boost.

450cc injectors rated at 43.5psi, will flow 48pph at 55psi (our base fuel pressure). So, they're kind of in between +20's (42pph) and +40's (52pph). A +20 cal would be richer with those and a +40 cal would be lean.

[moparmikehunt]

so what if i adjusted the fuel pressure a bit higher on a +40 cal? or for that matter dialed it back a bit for the +20 cal? and when might the stage 5 be released good sir? thank you for your help,it is GREATLY appreciated.

[moparmikehunt]

Anyone please feel free to answer my questions here. I know at least half of you that have read or are reading this thread knows the answer here. Why is everyone all of a sudden not sharing knowledge? What is this ----? The "other site"?

[roachjuice]

you dont adjust the fuel pressure with a proper tune. it stays 55 static. a +40 cal is a +40 cal. a +20 cal is a +20 cal. there is no fuel adjusting via the regulator. get the proper tune. anyone can scale it. its not hard. its all point and click now. i wouldnt honestly worry about the "premium fuel required" as long as you stay out of boost and dont go running the shyt out of it. if your worried about it order a fourplay from rob and have a crap fuel tune and a few different ones. 87 octane isnt gonna hurt anything out of boost. there isnt really a load to create knock that would damage anything. premium fuel to me is 91+

[moparmikehunt]

thank you roachjuice. why was that so hard for everyone? I don't get it. thank you,thank you very much!

[roachjuice]

thank you roachjuice. why was that so hard for everyone? I don't get it. thank you,thank you very much! people are busy and the info is all on here. i just so happened to look in here. with your dsm injectors i think there is a way in the new tuning program to add an injector size. i could be wrong. but i would run the +20's cal if there isnt one and maybe turn the fuel pressure down. just watch the wideband to make sure it doesnt go lean. rob makes his off the shelf tunes a little rich up top (well on my car atleast) i think its to cover his own. cant blame the guy. but thats what you get with an off the shelf tune. if you want a custom tune i'd pm rob if i were you. he can hook you up but i dunno if he has time or not.

[OmniLuvr]

i would much rather lower fuel pressure and scale for smaller inj instead of the other, lower fuel pressure will help the fuel pump live longer...

[MNmopar]

thank you roachjuice. why was that so hard for everyone? I don't get it. thank you,thank you very much!

Honestly, bitching and crying about it is the opposite of what you want to do when you need other people's help. Sounds like YOU are too used to posting on the "other site"?:thumb:

[Force Fed Mopar]

I would just go into injector size, add 48pph to the list, then scale the cal for that and leave the fuel pressure at 55.

[moparmikehunt]

listen mnmopar and roach. the point im making is the thread had so many views but no one was answering my question when i knew damn well at least half of you knew the answer and people are busy? yall sure had time to read the thread didn't you? if you have time to read the thread,you have time to post. and ive done lots of research and there's too much conflicting info around. so suck on that. and thank you again everyone, i do greatly appreciate the help.

[roachjuice]

listen mnmopar and roach. the point im making is the thread had so many views but no one was answering my question when i knew damn well at least half of you knew the answer and people are busy? yall sure had time to read the thread didn't you? if you have time to read the thread,you have time to post. and ive done lots of research and there's too much conflicting info around. so suck on that. and thank you again everyone, i do greatly appreciate the help.

I look at threads all the time. Doesn't mean I wanna put my 2 cents in.

[Force Fed Mopar]

listen mnmopar and roach. the point im making is the thread had so many views but no one was answering my question when i knew damn well at least half of you knew the answer and people are busy? yall sure had time to read the thread didn't you? if you have time to read the thread,you have time to post. and ive done lots of research and there's too much conflicting info around. so suck on that. and thank you again everyone, i do greatly appreciate the help.

Most of the people reading probably don't know anymore than you do, and were waiting for the answer same as you.

[black86glhs]

You made an assumption there. Bad idea.:nod:

[moparmikehunt]

alright, my bad. yall are right.thank you all for chiming in. and thank you for setting me straight. I love this place! :) keep boostin gentlemen.

[black86glhs]

No problem. We have all been there. Next time if you need something faster, post it in the "I need help" forum. No guarantee, but guys tend to post up faster in that area.

[tryingbe]

Most of us who can answer your question also downloaded rob's cal and make our own modifications to it, and we do not deal with "stage". Plus, you have no business using a stage 5 cal if you have a stock long block and just want to run higher boost.

We adjust to whatever PSI we want to run, injectors, cold start, map sensor etc.

You can put whatever injectors # you want and the program will scale for you.

Most injectors are there have spec from using a 3 bar regulator. You need to convert them to 4 bar if you want to use their flow is on a turbo dodge engine.

DSN injectors are 48.19 lb/hr at 4 bar.
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4

Download MPtuner, install wideband, and tune it your way.

Direct link for bigger pic
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/injectors.JPG

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/injectors.JPG

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/booost.JPG

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/booost.JPG

[ShelGame]

Is everyone still using MPT1?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Is everyone still using MPT1?

Lol I was just wondering the same :D FTR I use MPTune exclusively now.

[tryingbe]

Is everyone still using MPT1?

I am going to stuck with MPtuner. I have the tune almost the way I want it, and there is no benefit for me to change, unless someone have master the boost control settings in MPtune.

[roachjuice]

Is everyone still using MPT1? its simple and effective. :) i JUST got mptune or whatever the latest thing is. using LM v13. so far so good. I LOVE the total timing table. Thats the main reason i went to the newer program. otherwise id still be running v10 lol.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I am going to stuck with MPtuner. I have the tune almost the way I want it, and there is no benefit for me to change, unless someone have master the boost control settings in MPtune.

that wil be my next goal. Honestly though, MP Tune works like Mp Tuner with perks.

[turbovanman²]

NEVER assume, makes and azz out of you and me, lol.

Just remember that when using DSM injectors, you will need to make collars to push the injector down into the injector bung on the intake otherwise they will not seal, I'll see if I can dig up pics, I Just used rubber hose on top of the injector.

You can use reg fuel but just turn the boost down, that's all I do, its scaled for race gas above 20 psi so I simply keep the boost under that and running alky also helps.


Is everyone still using MPT1?


Yep, lol.

[ShelGame]

I am going to stuck with MPtuner. I have the tune almost the way I want it, and there is no benefit for me to change, unless someone have master the boost control settings in MPtune.

Boost control is actually pretty simple in either MPT1 or 2. What are you having trouble with?

[moparmikehunt]

okay so on the other site, there's a getting to 20 psi mod thread. in it it states that fwd stage 5 ecu plus 3 bar map plus the +20 injectors is all you need to run 20 psi. and a stock long block will take 25 psi all day long,that has been proven. so this is where im trying to get,and probably will stay at for the life of my van(plenty of power,reliable daily driver,family/---- hauler,). a side goal is to beat my sister's boyfriends sti,im not positive if i can do that at this level or not. if i cant,oh well. it sure would be sweet though.

[tryingbe]

Boost control is actually pretty simple in either MPT1 or 2. What are you having trouble with?

Boost spike problem.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?62881-LM-boost-control-v.-boost-spike-problem&highlight=boost

[roachjuice]

okay so on the other site, there's a getting to 20 psi mod thread. in it it states that fwd stage 5 ecu plus 3 bar map plus the +20 injectors is all you need to run 20 psi. and a stock long block will take 25 psi all day long,that has been proven. so this is where im trying to get,and probably will stay at for the life of my van(plenty of power,reliable daily driver,family/---- hauler,). a side goal is to beat my sister's boyfriends sti,im not positive if i can do that at this level or not. if i cant,oh well. it sure would be sweet though.

My stock long block takes 25psi like a champ. I'm on a Garrett turbo though. To beat an Sti your gonna need some balls. My parents have an 09 Sti. Cat-less 3in exhaust. Amr tune. Intake. 22psi. It's fast. From a 20 roll it puts you back hard and makes you dizzy. Amazing.

[roachjuice]

Boost spike problem.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?62881-LM-boost-control-v.-boost-spike-problem&highlight=boost

Manual boost controller. Done deal.

[moparmikehunt]

yeah he has 04 sti,all stock except 4" down pipe to 3" exhaust all the way it does kick your --- when it goes. it's rated at 300 whp, and it weighs just about the same as the van. he just has awd and a 6 spd and lsd. so yeah. if i get an lsd, a decent sized turbo,a cut out and do some weight reduction I think I may have a shot, maybe? hahah.

[roachjuice]

yeah he has 04 sti,all stock except 4" down pipe to 3" exhaust all the way it does kick your --- when it goes. it's rated at 300 whp, and it weighs just about the same as the van. he just has awd and a 6 spd and lsd. so yeah. if i get an lsd, a decent sized turbo,a cut out and do some weight reduction I think I may have a shot, maybe? hahah.

I doubt he is remotely even near 300whp. 04's suck. They are rated at 300 crank hp.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Forget the Stage 5 cal, unless you have a full race top end I don't think it will work good. I personally do not know of anyone w/ a stock or mildly modded engine that had good luck w/ the Stage 5 cal. Maybe someone has, I dunno. I believe Shadow is running a Stage 5, but he has a full race engine.

[Khajjathefang]

Forget the Stage 5 cal, unless you have a full race top end I don't think it will work good. I personally do not know of anyone w/ a stock or mildly modded engine that had good luck w/ the Stage 5 cal. Maybe someone has, I dunno. I believe Shadow is running a Stage 5, but he has a full race engine.

Ran like crap for me, but I had other issues

[turbovanman²]

One suggestion, stop worrying about stages, get a cal suited to your setup, not what you want down the road.


yeah he has 04 sti,all stock except 4" down pipe to 3" exhaust all the way it does kick your --- when it goes. it's rated at 300 whp, and it weighs just about the same as the van. he just has awd and a 6 spd and lsd. so yeah. if i get an lsd, a decent sized turbo,a cut out and do some weight reduction I think I may have a shot, maybe? hahah.

You'll need more than that to beat him, especially if he can drive.

[roachjuice]

One suggestion, stop worrying about stages, get a cal suited to your setup, not what you want down the road.



You'll need more than that to beat him, especially if he can drive.

I'm all staged out bro. I got stage 1 head stage 2 oil and filter. Stage 5 exhaust. Stage 0 turbo. Stage 3 injectors. Stage 3 fuel. Stage 1 tires. You get me bro? Lolz

[turbovanman²]

I'm all staged out bro. I got stage 1 head stage 2 oil and filter. Stage 5 exhaust. Stage 0 turbo. Stage 3 injectors. Stage 3 fuel. Stage 1 tires. You get me bro? Lolz

LOL, :eyebrows:

[moparmikehunt]

okay so can someone explain to me how to scale for these injectors in mp2? also exactly how to make them fit? as i understood they would work with the dodge o rings and lots of lube/push. is this not correct? and what calibration should i be using then if i want 20 psi on a port matched head,ported intake/exhaust,50 trim 64.ar t3 turbo and 3" exhaust(possibly with cut out)? i already have 255 pump. 3 bar,etc.

[Force Fed Mopar]

At the top, got to Setup and click Injector Size:

37205

There, click the add button and enter the pph of your injector if not already listed (in your case, 48). Be sure to click save after adding it:

37206

Then close that screen (small X box in the corner), and click the Scaling button on the left side of the group names. Mouse over the injector options menus that pops up, until you get to the size list, then select your injector size:

37207

[moparmikehunt]

thanks,i think im startin to figure this stuff out. ive been messing with stuff today.

[turbovanman²]

okay so can someone explain to me how to scale for these injectors in mp2? also exactly how to make them fit? as i understood they would work with the dodge o rings and lots of lube/push. is this not correct? and what calibration should i be using then if i want 20 psi on a port matched head,ported intake/exhaust,50 trim 64.ar t3 turbo and 3" exhaust(possibly with cut out)? i already have 255 pump. 3 bar,etc.

No, the injectors are a different size so they don't fit properly, the spacer is needed to push the injector into the manifold so it can't move up and down.

[moparmikehunt]

OH MY ----ING GOD! so i just decided to check the part numbers and name search of my "dsm 450cc" injectors that i bought off ebay the ad said they were 2g black top dsm 450's NOPE!.lol turns out i got a STEAL! these are in fact SEIMENS DEKA 3145 INJECTORS,WHICH HAPPEN TO BE ----ING 72 LB, 750CC low impedance INJECTORS!!!!!!! wow!!!! so now what tune should i use guys? lol. think ill have enough fuel for whatever. im so excited!

[roachjuice]

OH MY ----ING GOD! so i just decided to check the part numbers and name search of my "dsm 450cc" injectors that i bought off ebay the ad said they were 2g black top dsm 450's NOPE!.lol turns out i got a STEAL! these are in fact SEIMENS DEKA 3145 INJECTORS,WHICH HAPPEN TO BE ----ING 72 LB, 750CC low impedance INJECTORS!!!!!!! wow!!!! so now what tune should i use guys? lol. think ill have enough fuel for whatever. im so excited! thats like way too big

[moparmikehunt]

it's big enough to run up to 30 psi in boost :) and since the stock long block can handle 25 all day with no issues,project smash my sister's boyfriends wrx i think just got green lighted. im thinking of using the stage 4 cal or stage 5 cal when it's released and scaling it for the 72lb injectors,and run 25 psi,maybe even 30 if im feeling frisky.

[turbovanman²]

OH MY ----ING GOD! so i just decided to check the part numbers and name search of my "dsm 450cc" injectors that i bought off ebay the ad said they were 2g black top dsm 450's NOPE!.lol turns out i got a STEAL! these are in fact SEIMENS DEKA 3145 INJECTORS,WHICH HAPPEN TO BE ----ING 72 LB, 750CC low impedance INJECTORS!!!!!!! wow!!!! so now what tune should i use guys? lol. think ill have enough fuel for whatever. im so excited!

Sweet, those will fit with no mods. As for being to big, nah, I run 80 lb injectors, MP tuner can easily accomodate them.


it's big enough to run up to 30 psi in boost :) and since the stock long block can handle 25 all day with no issues,project smash my sister's boyfriends wrx i think just got green lighted. im thinking of using the stage 4 cal or stage 5 cal when it's released and scaling it for the 72lb injectors,and run 25 psi,maybe even 30 if im feeling frisky.

Stop with the stages, :) AND your going to need alot more than the larger injector to beat an STi.

[moparmikehunt]

im sticking with the stages because i want a good mostly tuned cal that i can just adjust for my injector size and plug and play. i dont want to do any major tuning or anything.

[ShelGame]

im sticking with the stages because i want a good mostly tuned cal that i can just adjust for my injector size and plug and play. i dont want to do any major tuning or anything.

Is the head ported or running a big cam? If not, just run the S.4, scale for injectors, and increase the boost setting. I can walk you thru the boost.

[moparmikehunt]

the head is not ported,allthough I am planning on least having it port/gasket matched and getting a ported intake and exhaust manifold,52mm tb,full 3" down pipe and exhaust. I am also running an 88 tbi cam. if you could walk me through how to scale the boost and such that would be great, although i am running a MBC and not planning on using factory controls so im not sure if that makes a difference or what?. i have figured out how to scale for injectors with the neat side tab. this program kicks ---. it's alot more user friendly and automated than i was expecting. I also figured out how to turn the 2 step on,point and click! lol. love it.

[ShelGame]

If you're going to use a MBC, just run the S.4 with only scaling it for injectors it shoud run fine.

Keep in mid, though, that those injectors are rated at 43.5psi fuel pressure. So, you either need to lower the FP to 43.5 (from our stock 55psi) or re-scale the cal for the injectors flow rat at 55psi which is actually 80pph.

For the 2-step, you'll also want to check the settings. I think I set it to like 3k rpm and 10mph cutoff. Make sure that's what you want.

[moparmikehunt]

isent the cal already set to run at 55 psi and does it not automatically scale everything to suit when you select your injector size? including fuel pressure? also are our stock fuel pressure regulators 1:1 rising rate or are they just regular regulators?

[ShelGame]

Nope. MP Tune scales it to the flow rate specified. Period. It doesn't know that the injectors you have were rated at 43.5 psi.

The stock FPR is a 1:1 ratio, not rising rate (ie, it doesn't go to 2:1 above a certain MAP). Which means that the pressure in the rail is always 55psi more than the pressure in the manifold.

I've often though it would be really sweet to have computer controlled fuel pressure. But, that's a different thread...

[moparmikehunt]

so i can safely mod the fuel rail and put a basic aftermarket fpr on and back the pressure down for the injectors?

[ShelGame]

I'd get an Accufab. No mods required, it's a bolt-on. But, it's $100. There are other less expensive FPR's that bolt-on, too. The Buick Grand National used the same style of FPR, so anything that fits one of those should work in ours. I know I've seen some $50 no-name (IE Chinese) FPR's for them.

[Force Fed Mopar]

so i can safely mod the fuel rail and put a basic aftermarket fpr on and back the pressure down for the injectors?

Why not just scale the cal for 80pph injectors? Seems much simpler to me.

[turbovanman²]

Why not just scale the cal for 80pph injectors? Seems much simpler to me.

+2...

[moparmikehunt]

would i not then be overworking the injectors? these already will supply more fuel than ill ever use, id think running them at where they are suppose to be would make more sense, and be safer, and make the injectors last longer. am i wrong?

[Force Fed Mopar]

would i not then be overworking the injectors? these already will supply more fuel than ill ever use, id think running them at where they are suppose to be would make more sense, and be safer, and make the injectors last longer. am i wrong?

They aren't micro processors lol, just electro-mechanical untis. By scaling for the proper size, they will actually work less. IE, the more fuel an injector sprays, the less time it has to spend open when compared to a smaller injector.

[moparmikehunt]

Alright so scale the cal for 80pph. so I assume I can safely push 30 pounds with this setup? am I correct in my assumption?

[tryingbe]

Injectors are fine, but not so sure about your 3 bar map sensor, or turbocharger, or your tires.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Alright so scale the cal for 80pph. so I assume I can safely push 30 pounds with this setup? am I correct in my assumption?

Yes those injectors will handle 30 psi fine.

[moparmikehunt]

3 bar map goes up to 28 psi correct? so maybe 28 psi max, a t3 turbo with 63 exhaust and 50-60 trim will do just fine, and im expecting to eat tires pretty fast,unless i get drag radials, or slicks.

[roachjuice]

Your gonna blow shyt up.

[moparmikehunt]

well, I guess well find out soon enough wont we? :)

[roachjuice]

More boost doesnt mean more power. To an extent. You get to a certain point where the engine can only take so much. Ive ran a 50 trim at 30psi and it wasnt any faster than 23psi. You gonna need a bad mofo to beat an Sti in a van. Honestly. I'm talking ported to the moon head. Nice matching turbo nothing crazy big. Bigger doesnt mean better when it comes to cams and turbos. Big --- fmic. Injectors you have are fine. May take a little tuning but they will work. Big exhaust. 255 pump. It's doable but don't expect it to whip Sti --- out of the box. Id do a super 60 if I did the bigger turbo all over again. I had a 50 trim with a .63 exhaust side and a stage 2 turbine and it was a little laggy for a stock engine with a cleaned up head and back cut valves. I wouldn't get full boost till the middle of third from a dead stop. The stock Garrett is way more responsive than that turbo ever was. You can always go faster on too small of a turbo than too big of one. That Sti just isn't gonna be a push over. Local guy around here had a turbo van with a fully built engine and a dbb gt28r turbo. Ran 13.9@100. Just food for thought.

[moparmikehunt]

well im gonna go with a decent safe setup and see where im at. probably wont go insane with it. even if i cant beat him,im still gunna be going damn fast in a sweet sleeper van.

[cordes]

well im gonna go with a decent safe setup and see where im at. probably wont go insane with it. even if i cant beat him,im still gunna be going damn fast in a sweet sleeper van.

You really need to do some more reading about the tuning before you get crazy. Just the fact that you have a van will create many differences from what many on here or even in this thread will experience. The added weight and wind resistance of the van will allow for much less timing on the same octane due to the increased load.

Careful and prudent tuning will be the key for you. A TII turbo is going to be blowing very hot air once you get into the 20+ PSI range to boot. The diminishing returns curve is pretty much vertical for most folks by that time.

It's more fun to drive a car around than to pay for another engine to be built.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Old STi's aren't all that fast, they are just quick out of the hole. Still, in a van, you'll have a tough time I think. Although I think gasketmaster on here went pretty fast on a stockish setup in a van.

A large front mount is a must though I think for running the stock turbo at it's limits. On my Daytona I had a stock longblock w/ a FM cam, 3" exhaust, stock Garrett turbo, 52mm TB and an SRT-4 FMIC. After running it hard at 17psi I felt the end tanks on the intercooler, the turbo side was hot enough to almost burn your hand, the engine side was cool to the touch.

Getting the timing set isn't too bad. Buy a new knock sensor and install it, then start out with 14psi of boost. You may need to start out with a stock cal (scaled for 3-bar and your injectors) to get the knock sensor voltage table dialed in. I/we can walk you through it once you get it running.

[moparmikehunt]

arent rob's stage cal's already set up and tuned?

[cordes]

arent rob's stage cal's already set up and tuned?

Everyone's car is different enough that they'll have to tune it to meet their needs. This just gets you close IMO. In all reality, how could one cal be used in all body styles from L bodys to minis? It's not a realistic expectation.

[ShelGame]

The cals are setup basically the same way I would set them up if your spec sheet matched the description. If you engine setup is different from the description, then it's likely it will need some tuning.

Already you're adding 80pph injectors. The injector latency alone is probably enough to cause idle issues (rich idle). Probably nothing that would keep you from running it.

[turbovanman²]

BTW, sorry to the OP, I forgot that Rob offered staged cals, :o

As for a van, I have learned the hard way, what works with a car DOES NOT get the same results with a van, it can be very frustrating.

I raced an STi last summer, had him covered easily but then I kept hitting cut out, :( :mad: