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c2xejk
01-21-2012, 10:05 AM
This is my build thread for my Hot Rod Drag Week event. My 2011 run was disappointing, so I am starting my build now.


At Drag Week I ran a best of 15.1 @ 90.x MPH 2.1x sec 60'. No traction off the line. My best launches came by launching at 1100 RPM and modulating the throttle. I could not do my usual, rev to 3K and let the clutch out quickly as I mash the throttle. That resulted in me sitting there with the wheels spinning... Keep in mind the tracks were VERY sticky. The engine has a lot more to offer even in it's current configuration... . On the street on dry pavement, in first gear from a roll (5-10 MPH) I could mash the throttle and the 205 60 tires would let out a mighty squeal/mini-burnout.

Goals:
Overall:

low-13 sec pass.


Body:

reduce race weight by 200 lbs. The weight of the car and driver @ DW2011 was 2875 lbs. So 2675 lbs.


Suspension & tires:

1.7xx sec or better 60' times.
qualify for Modified NA class.


Engine:

gain 50hp. Dynoed at 175 whp, so ~225whp.
Understand and fix issues noted during DW2011.

large %timing err
erratic A/F




Not sure I will get it all done by DW 2012, but going to give it a try.

Final note for those considering going to Drag Week 2012+, DO IT!!! It is a blast even when things are not working right!


Update on the current configuration of the car. (07/05/15)
Engine: Mitsubishi 6g74 3.5L 24V SOHC
"T61" Turbo (that is what it was sold to me as, but it is much bigger ~T67 or T68)
Intercooler: Aluminum Turbo Intercooler 25.5"x13"x3.5", 3.5" Core: 24"x7"x3.5", 3" Inlet & Outlet
Weight: Current Race weight: 2930 lbs w/ driver.
Best Pass: 12.36@122 18psi of boost and pig rich (~9.6:1)
Transmission: Stock A543 w/OBX limited slip.
Clutch: Turbosunleashed 6-puck purple plate.

RoadWarrior222
01-21-2012, 11:43 AM
You were using the 205s at the track?

Fat sidewall, (70) larger diameter 205s would never hold much of a launch on my van. (Hold on brake at 2000RPM, then throttle modulate, which would probably be an effective 1500 RPM, if I just went "into it" from 2000 they'd fry) In fact after the shift kit they would squeak going in second or third, when I was hard on the throttle.. Those were fairly grippy Kumhos. I could burn them on sharp kickdown from a 30mph roll. I know this is auto vs stick, but that's also a larger diameter by about half an inch and an effective 2nd gear ratio, though torque multiplied.

The Nexen 215s I have on now, so far I have had trouble breaking loose, but the van has been on the sick list.

tryingbe
01-21-2012, 11:44 AM
Get slicks.

Force Fed Mopar
01-21-2012, 12:06 PM
Get 225/50's if you have to run street tires.

shadow88
01-21-2012, 12:37 PM
Low 13's, 2685 lbs =225whp?

Sundance 6g72
01-21-2012, 01:10 PM
Get slicks.

he now has slicks.

turbovanmanČ
01-21-2012, 01:16 PM
2.1's are pretty good.

Slicks
LSD
Maybe a 2 step so you can launch consistantly.
Gearing?
More power, :eyebrows: I don't think 225 hp will cut it.

RoadWarrior222
01-21-2012, 02:29 PM
Yeah, but that is 225HP of V6 GRUNT, not that buzzy Honda horsepower you 2.2/2.5 guys deal with :D :p ;-) ...


... okay I'm kidding, but it does seem to be something of a problem in that you can quickly overwhelm any grip you managed to find with these with minor upgrades, it all goes on the bottom too :( ... SMEC programming doesn't help though, it's like torque from 0 rpm to 2000, then fall on it's face because it pulled timing for emissions then turn it on again at 2700 ish.....then you fall off the cam at 5000.

Sundance 6g72
01-21-2012, 02:45 PM
2.2 dodge = 225hp and 400tq

1.6 honda = 350hp and 210tq

fail

as far as grip is concerned.. the launch was the only thing slowing this car down as far as grip goes. I think the slicks will be enough BUTTT a diff pin at the min should be used imo because youl be doing burnouts before every run more than likely. an obx is preferable though. slicks and obx would make such a killer difference

crusty shadow
01-21-2012, 02:52 PM
get a turbo.

Sundance 6g72
01-21-2012, 02:56 PM
the whole point of this car is to be the fastest N/A no power adder 12 valve 3.0 in the world.

RoadWarrior222
01-21-2012, 03:00 PM
In ze volrd?

MC#4
01-21-2012, 04:59 PM
Who is the current holder of that title and what was their time?

Sundance 6g72
01-21-2012, 10:48 PM
Josh simons 14.2

R.I.P.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

Josh simons 14.2

R.I.P.

RoadWarrior222
01-21-2012, 11:43 PM
Wow, still!

annnnd I was doubtful, but couldn't find any info that even hints different.. was plowing through DDG, but I guess the cars in the 13s were on the bottle.

Kinda makes me wanna start trying hard with this brick... was dreaming of touching in the top of the 14s... damn, I'm just gonna have to F up my oilpan to get a real header on it aren't I?

Force Fed Mopar
01-22-2012, 12:04 AM
Wow, still!

annnnd I was doubtful, but couldn't find any info that even hints different.. was plowing through DDG, but I guess the cars in the 13s were on the bottle.

Kinda makes me wanna start trying hard with this brick... was dreaming of touching in the top of the 14s... damn, I'm just gonna have to F up my oilpan to get a real header on it aren't I?

Not really, just run a Diamante pan.

c2xejk
01-22-2012, 12:09 AM
the whole point of this car is to be the fastest N/A no power adder 12 valve 3.0 in the world.

Yes... I have a turbo 3LV6 car. This one is to see what I can do with the normally-aspirated setup.

I have slicks. I plan on getting an OBX. I plan on going to a full coilover setup to make tuning the suspension "easier."

Will 225whp be enough? Don't know. Can I find more power? Time will tell.

Right now I am trying to get the 36-1 wheel and hall-effect working right.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------


Kinda makes me wanna start trying hard with this brick... was dreaming of touching in the top of the 14s... damn, I'm just gonna have to F up my oilpan to get a real header on it aren't I?

I am looking modifying Grand Prix 3800 headers.

RoadWarrior222
01-22-2012, 12:21 AM
Not really, just run a Diamante pan.Rare as hens teeth here, but could order one I guess... Just would like to clap eyeballs on one first.

(Mitsu no sell anything in Canada until mid 2000s)

Force Fed Mopar
01-22-2012, 12:23 AM
Rare as hens teeth here, but could order one I guess... Just would like to clap eyeballs on one first.

(Mitsu no sell anything in Canada until mid 2000s)

Hell I just found one on ebay before I posted for like 45 USD :D

Vigo
01-22-2012, 01:12 AM
I was hooking 23/7/15 slicks off the 5800 limiter in my 3.0 dynasty on Wednesday even with no burnouts.. Best 60' was only 2.08. I was able to spin them if i dumped it but other than that they hooked. Ran 15.2@88

I actually think the next step to improve my 60' is raise my rev limiter. :p

c2xejk
01-24-2012, 12:57 PM
I have been struggling to get a hall-effect I had on hand to work with the 36-1 toothed wheel. Above 4k RPM the signal would have problems. I think they are because the sensor (from a '96 Dodge 3.3L) isn't designed for this setup (wheel thickness and RPM.) So yesterday I ordered the tabbed hall-effect sensor from DIY AutoTune. I went back and forth between the sensor and fabbing a 18-1 wheel. The sensor should allow me to reuse much of my existing mount and should work for as much RPM as I want to throw at it...

I confirmed with Matt that they had them in stock. The web site was indicating that they were on back-order. Luckily the order had just arrived.

As a side note, I confirmed that there threaded body hall-effect would also work. I was concerned about the 85C temperature limit. For an external mounting of the sensor I should be fine even in the conditions I saw during last year's Drag Week.

contraption22
01-24-2012, 01:02 PM
2.2 dodge = 225hp and 400tq

1.6 honda = 350hp and 210tq

fail

as far as grip is concerned.. the launch was the only thing slowing this car down as far as grip goes. I think the slicks will be enough BUTTT a diff pin at the min should be used imo because youl be doing burnouts before every run more than likely. an obx is preferable though. slicks and obx would make such a killer difference

Good slicks + Warm Weather + Decent track prep = No burnout needed.

RoadWarrior222
01-24-2012, 01:08 PM
This could be an alternative... http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1119293&parttype=7196
Variable reluctance sensor though.

some hints buried in this... http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html

Sundance 6g72
01-24-2012, 01:28 PM
Good slicks + Warm Weather + Decent track prep = No burnout needed.
i didnt see one person with slicks not do a burnout. not saying it was required, just saying everyone did it.

c2xejk
01-24-2012, 01:38 PM
The Drag Week 2012 locations have just been announce. Sept. 9-14

2012 Drag Week Locations Announced - Hot Rod Magazine Blog (http://blogs.hotrod.com/2012-drag-week-locations-announced-19595.html)

Stop 1: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Stop 2: Motorplex in Ennis, Texas
Stop 3: Thunder Road in Gilliam, Louisiana
Stop 4: Memphis International Raceway
Stop 5: Back to Tulsa for evening finals.


Looks like several long drives, especially the last one... Given that the finals are held in the evening, I may split the last leg over two days...

---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------


i didnt see one person with slicks not do a burnout. not saying it was required, just saying everyone did it.

Depends on how close you are to the limits of traction... If you have more traction than you know what to do with, why do a burn out? If you are looking for every bit of traction you can find, better do a burnout... That said, I suspect there were a couple people at Tulsa last year that might be rethinking doing a burn out. (thinking of the guy (RWD) that had the nose lift higher and higher till he got off the throttle and slammed to the pavement! A little less traction may have given him his "usual" launch. )

c2xejk
01-24-2012, 01:51 PM
I was hooking 23/7/15 slicks off the 5800 limiter in my 3.0 dynasty on Wednesday even with no burnouts.. Best 60' was only 2.08. I was able to spin them if i dumped it but other than that they hooked. Ran 15.2@88

I actually think the next step to improve my 60' is raise my rev limiter. :p

Just read some of this in your build thread. It gives me hope that I can find the weight loss in my car and that with slicks I will be able to launch at more than ~1100 RPM that I had been...

Juggy
01-24-2012, 06:09 PM
Who is the current holder of that title and what was their time?


Josh simons 14.2

R.I.P.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

Josh simons 14.2

R.I.P.

actually rick lozier has the fastest 3.0L 12 valve. im pretty sure it ran mid-high 13s all motor, and when blasted with the spray it ran sub 12s. it was a 92 or 93 iroc auto.
The car is currently owned by another member on this board, maybe he will chime in???

and my old 3.0 Duster ran 15.4's all day.....on street tires with 2.4-2.5 60 footers @ 91-92mph......if I had slicks it would have prolly broke a 13.99 :)

Vigo
01-24-2012, 06:27 PM
It gives me hope that I can find the weight loss in my car and that with slicks I will be able to launch at more than ~1100 RPM that I had been...

Slicks will get you 14s immediately but i think you have more to gain in figuring out the performance issues.. My car trapped exactly what it 'should' for the light mods but i think you are missing some mph because of the tune/electrical issues. Your car would probably already be in the 14s on street tires if that stuff was fixed.

Best of luck with it, im watching with great interest. :)

Sundance 6g72
01-25-2012, 05:51 PM
actually rick lozier has the fastest 3.0L 12 valve. im pretty sure it ran mid-high 13s all motor, and when blasted with the spray it ran sub 12s. it was a 92 or 93 iroc auto.
The car is currently owned by another member on this board, maybe he will chime in???

and my old 3.0 Duster ran 15.4's all day.....on street tires with 2.4-2.5 60 footers @ 91-92mph......if I had slicks it would have prolly broke a 13.99 :)

sense when did he do it without spray? i was told he always used spray on his runs

roachjuice
01-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Good slicks + Warm Weather + Decent track prep = No burnout needed.

I second that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqczGGQIdo8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

2500 rpm launch. All season street tires. 14.0@104

Mdoe8
01-25-2012, 08:12 PM
slicks + suspension blocks or something in the back would get you out of the hole very well.

RoadWarrior222
01-25-2012, 08:22 PM
Don't say block, some of the cheaper folks here will replace the coil with a chunk of regular 4x4.... when we all know they should spend the extra 25c a board foot and go with the exterior treated stuff for durability.

Mdoe8
01-25-2012, 08:23 PM
I was thinking lincoln logs

Sundance 6g72
01-25-2012, 08:36 PM
hes doing a coilover conversion or something similar

c2xejk
01-25-2012, 10:13 PM
Yup, the plan is to use coilovers at all four corners so I can adjust the suspension. Probably be using some fairly firm springs, at least for Drag Week. My plan is to adjust the rear suspension heights to equalize the weight on the front wheels for track runs. Combined with slicks, an OBX LSD and some weight loss, that should make for some very quick launches.

While I am waiting on the new Hall-effect to arrive from DIY AutoTune, I took care of a couple small things this evening.

First, figuring out why my horn wasn't working (technically you need one for Drag Week, but I didn't get asked to demo it like many people did.) Anyway, verified that the horn itself does work when 12v is applied. Then went to the other end and verified that if I shorted the wire to the switch to the battery ground that the horn worked. The switch checked out, but the column wasn't grounded... So 6" piece of wire later the column is now grounded and the horn works.

Second, since I had the airbag off ('92 steering column and dash) I took some time to gut the bag and reinstall just the backing plate and cover. That saves 2.2 lbs. Problably fill the cover with some spray foam before reinstalling it.

RoadWarrior222
01-25-2012, 11:25 PM
Remember to use the low expansion stuff.... don't wanna come back next day and find your interior is a solid lump of foam :D

Reaper1
01-26-2012, 12:53 AM
Jugs, I now have Rick Lozier's car. To my knowledge he never ran it at the track off the spray. It ran a best of 12.2@112 with the "old" 3.0 engine and tune with a 150 direct port shot (note that this was done with an A604 on a stock controller, but a stand-alone Haltec EK6 system). It's never been down the track with the new engine that is supposed to be a 3.2 stroker (this was the RPW kit from what I know). Rick claimed it was around 225hp off the bottle with the old engine, but I honestly think that might be a little bit of wishful thinking. In all the documentation I have for the car, there are NO dyno sheets.

I know the car ran the numbers, but I think maybe the shop doing the work might have played up their work a bit to him as he did not do the work himself. My experience with said shop's work hasn't been pleasant, hence why I've never driven the car under its own power...sadly. :(

c2xejk
01-26-2012, 07:51 PM
I just checked the tracking number for the new hall-effect sensor. It is scheduled for delivery for today and is list as "out for delivery" in REDONDO BEACH, CA. Only problem is I DON'T live in California. I am in Indiana! ACK! :banghead: So much for getting it installed by this weekend... :(

c2xejk
02-01-2012, 09:26 PM
Finally installed the DIY AutoTune hall-effect. At first I couldn't rev over 4700 RPM. Moved the sensor further out and it was worse. Moved it in and I was able to free rev to 7500 RPM!

The timing err % is still pretty large (ranges between -12.7 to +12.7) Not sure what to make of that. I am hoping that we are now dealing with 12.7% of 10 degrees instead of 12.7% of 120 degrees... That would be a big improvement.

Sundance 6g72
02-01-2012, 10:24 PM
glad its working

not sure what any of it means but im glad it works :)

RoadWarrior222
02-01-2012, 11:42 PM
The timing err % is still pretty large (ranges between -12.7 to +12.7) Not sure what to make of that. I am hoping that we are now dealing with 12.7% of 10 degrees instead of 12.7% of 120 degrees... That would be a big improvement.Well I hope it didin't eat the key slot on the crank.

c2xejk
02-02-2012, 08:24 AM
Actually looks like the #1 plug is not firing... Not sure why yet.

Sundance 6g72
02-02-2012, 10:20 AM
lol, number 1 plug not firing.

that explains everything if that was happening DURING our runs. My car will idle fine with 5 spark plugs it seems like.

Murphy
02-02-2012, 11:33 AM
... okay I'm kidding, but it does seem to be something of a problem in that you can quickly overwhelm any grip you managed to find with these with minor upgrades, it all goes on the bottom too :( ... SMEC programming doesn't help though, it's like torque from 0 rpm to 2000, then fall on it's face because it pulled timing for emissions then turn it on again at 2700 ish.....then you fall off the cam at 5000.

replace the cams and it will pull to the limiter!

Vigo
02-02-2012, 01:28 PM
I think most people have problems other than the stock ECU. My 3.0 car wants to make power past the rev limiter and trapped 88.4 with the stock 180* intake pipe and a pretty shitty 2.25" exhaust, stock cams and ecu.

Honestly, i can think of at least two 3.0s on megasquirt on this forum that are slower on the same or more mods, one that isnt enough faster to represent how much more work it has in it, 1 supposedly fast 3.0 on an aftermarket ems that hasnt run in a LONG time, 1 car that only managed to run the same as mine with a 50 shot, etc etc etc.

It's fun to talk about how crappy the stock tune is, but honestly MOST people with modded 3.0s have way bigger issues than the stock ECU and at some point talking about the stock ecu is just distracting from fixing the real issues.

Im not trying to bash on anyone (i like most of the projects i mentioned), but there are definitely times when the stock setup is NOT the problem.

Force Fed Mopar
02-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Actually looks like the #1 plug is not firing... Not sure why yet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ3mEP-aXE

Sundance 6g72
02-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Honestly, i can think of at least two 3.0s on megasquirt on this forum that are slower on the same or more mods, one that isnt enough faster to represent how much more work it has in it, 1 supposedly fast 3.0 on an aftermarket ems that hasnt run in a LONG time, 1 car that only managed to run the same as mine with a 50 shot, etc etc etc.

It's fun to talk about how crappy the stock tune is, but honestly MOST people with modded 3.0s have way bigger issues than the stock ECU and at some point talking about the stock ecu is just distracting from fixing the real issues.



your right.

now take those slower megasquirt cars and get them tuned correctly on a dyno and see who is faster. Ed's car had more of a problem than the tune being off. it was a physical problem and we think its the cams being offset. we could not get the car to have a consistent air fuel ratio which robs power and he never spent days and days the dyno perfecting the ignitioin timing (to my knoledge). Between runs we added timing, took timing away and then added a crap ton of timing. no dyno used just one big guess, cant expect to go as fast as the car can possibly go by guessing.. and we knew this.. no complaining here.


and now we come to see that it might be running on 5cyl? well no wonder it pulled like it was on 5cyl.

c2xejk
02-02-2012, 05:43 PM
I think the biggest issue I had was lack of traction... My best launch came by launching at 1100 RPM and pedaling out of hole for a 2.1 60'. I was past the 60' before I could even go WOT. With decent traction (ie. slicks like you had during your run) I think the results would have been much better.

After I got back I put the car on the dyno and tuned A/F and spark advance in and gained 10 hp... On the last day of Drag Week I left it lean thinking it wouldn't make a difference. The engine does not like being rich... About 7 of 10 hp gained came from leaning the engine out. The timing added during drag week helped, it just needed to be dialed back a little.

I think there are more gains to be found. Right now, I think my #2 limiting factor is the stock exhaust manifolds are holding back the top-end. The half-header helped low-rpm torque, but having to go through the crossover is limiting top-end power. Plans for a full header are in the works.

#3 limiting factor, the valves are sized for low-rpm torque not high-rpm power. Again plans are in the works to fix that.

#4 limiting factor, the intake runners are wrong for top-end power. They are designed for low-rpm torque... Again plans are in the works to fix that.

Bottom line, there is a whole bunch of things designed for low-rpm torque. Just fixing one helps, but to make big changes, you have to fix them all.


The #1 cylinder not firing is a new issue and unrelated to Drag Week. This problem is very noticeable when you are on the throttle and makes the car "undrivable". It feels a lot like two spark plug wires are swapped. Idles ok, but when you tip in it starts stuttering.

c2xejk
02-02-2012, 07:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ3mEP-aXE

I remember watching that. I haven't fully diagnosed my problem completely yet, but have you checked the cap to make sure the terminal for the rotor is connected to the one up top. I have heard of cases where that fails. Especially on some of the cheap ones...

Force Fed Mopar
02-02-2012, 08:04 PM
I remember watching that. I haven't fully diagnosed my problem completely yet, but have you checked the cap to make sure the terminal for the rotor is connected to the one up top. I have heard of cases where that fails. Especially on some of the cheap ones...

No I haven't done anything else with it just yet. I am planning to just buy a new cap, rotor and wires and throw on it. I put new plugs in already.

Vigo
02-02-2012, 10:35 PM
now take those slower megasquirt cars and get them tuned correctly on a dyno and see who is faster.
The same could be a said for a modded version of the stock cal.. I was just pointing out that unless you are already good at tuning, going away from the stock ecu causes more problems than it solves, and some of the people who would think about adding a MS or any other EMS to the equation might just be layering more variables onto their underlying problems.


With decent traction (ie. slicks like you had during your run) I think the results would have been much better.

Im not disagreeing with you, but my best ET was had with a 2.16 60'. Either because of my bad driving or a bad clutch, or both, i never got below 2.08 with the slicks on that trip. Im sure i will find a lot of improvement the more i practice. Im amazed you were able to get a 2.1 with that kind of launch on street tires. Goes to show how much the driver plays into it. You will probably get better slicks results than i did on your first try.

c2xejk
02-02-2012, 11:25 PM
Im not disagreeing with you, but my best ET was had with a 2.16 60'. Either because of my bad driving or a bad clutch, or both, i never got below 2.08 with the slicks on that trip. Im sure i will find a lot of improvement the more i practice. Im amazed you were able to get a 2.1 with that kind of launch on street tires. Goes to show how much the driver plays into it. You will probably get better slicks results than i did on your first try.

The car just has that much torque down low... I was struggling to get enough traction. My first launches were my usual rev to 3K and let out clutch quickly while mashing the gas. That just resulted in the tires spinning and going no where. I have not had the problem before... I have had them spin then grab and go, but not just continually spinning... Slicks have the potential to make a HUGE difference on this car...


On other fronts, changed the #1 spark plug and the miss is gone. Took the car for a spin and I am still struggling with the hall-effect not reading right at higher RPM (7200 and higher) and causing sync loss... Looks like I need to adjust the hall-effect air gap...

Timing Err % bounced around +/- 12.7 through the whole RPM range... Not sure what to make of that...

c2xejk
02-05-2012, 06:29 PM
I spent some time working on the hall-effect again today. I played with the gap on the sensor to see how much difference it made. At one point I had the gap down to ~0.035" and was reving and idling. Some where in there I heard a grinding noise shut things down and sure enough the toothed wheel had touched sensor and wore a small groove. The sensor was still bolted in tight so the wheel must have moved...

That was the motivating factor for me to change how I mounted the wheel. Instead of bolting the wheel to the pulley, I decided it was time to weld the wheel on. I gutted the center of the toothed wheel, centered the wheel on the crank pulley and put in 8 tack welds.

Double checked the centering and it pretty much exactly centered on the pulley. Now R&R'ing the pulley will be easier. I will no longer have spend time fussing with the toothed wheel to make sure it is centered. Just bolt it on and check/set the sensor spacing. This is what I should have done to begin with!

Took the car out for a spin and was able to rev it to the 7500 rev limiter! I have turned on some of the noise filtering (Tach period rejection, tach interrupt masking, and polarity checking.) That seems to help.

Timing Err % is still bouncing around between +/- 12.7%. I have been debating moving to a newer MS2 firmware.

Vigo
02-05-2012, 09:44 PM
Makes sense.. well that's one problem licked!

7500 sounds fun. I want to do that with my Caravan but i have to run the pulley ratios to see if the m90 will spin that fast without asploding. I just want to hear it. hehe.

Sundance 6g72
02-05-2012, 11:54 PM
i would update the firmware. I was on the same firmware as you but now i have the newest one (upddated it a while ago)

i didnt notice a difference (no problems to fix that i knew of) but updated firmware is usually for a reason in most cases

Shadow24
02-06-2012, 08:14 AM
ed, I also would suggest a firmware update. The code revisions usually help with oddball issues :) I haven't had much issues with my ford VR sensor once i got the toothed wheel mounted. I am also running an air gap of like .1" and rev to 7500 w/o issues. have you tried using a new/different VR sensor possibly?

Vigo, whats the stock crank pully diameter and are you using a ford Supercoupe M90? I got a calculator spreadsheet worked up off of Corky Bell's Supercharged book that will output CFM, temp gain, S/C Rpm etc if you want me to run your #s

RoadWarrior222
02-06-2012, 10:00 AM
Just a thunk, is there any chance that timing is responding to a faulty sensor, such as an intermittent CTS or something?

Shadow24
02-06-2012, 11:57 AM
good point rw222, a bad CLT or IAT sensor with temp or intake temp ignion adjustment will screw with your timing. I accidentially ran for a while wth knock enabld but no knock sensor. The MS was constantly pulling max timing as no signal was triggering timing retard.

Mdoe8
02-06-2012, 12:57 PM
MS looks extremely capable, loving what I'm reading!

Also, 7500 sounds fun!

c2xejk
02-06-2012, 01:25 PM
MS looks extremely capable, loving what I'm reading!

That is both it's strength and weakness. You can configure it so many ways, but you do have to tune it and you are likely to spend some time figuring out problems... For a while I was trying to figure out why I suddenly couldn't rev past 2K rpm. Turns out I had enabled a noise filter that was causing problems... There was more than a little hair pulling as I tried to figure out the problem!


Also, 7500 sounds fun!

Yup, right now I am not making big power there. I have been experimenting some with cam timing and have the cams advanced 4 degrees which favors lower-rpm power... Likely be back to making power there with the next head and cam though.

Vigo
02-06-2012, 08:20 PM
Shadow24, i bought a nick boers UDP so that i could start the SC build at a low-ish boost number. I think i measured both pulleys and did some kind of math out of corky bells SC book (which i had and then lost.. grr), but i cant remember the numbers right now. I just remember the result didnt cause me any concern. hah

c2xejk
02-11-2012, 01:55 PM
Ok, installed 3.2.1 firmware. The roads are too icy to really run it hard. One thing happened that I am not sure is related or not, the AFR read by the MS is stuck at 12.1 (still working normally on the dash gauge.)

Sundance 6g72
02-11-2012, 01:58 PM
you should have to re do the settings for the temp sensors and AFR sensor IIRC

c2xejk
02-11-2012, 02:47 PM
Ok, found the setting for the AFR that fixed it. However, I think I screwed up the coolant temp sensor when I redid that... 87turbodance, do you remember what the values should be for the CTS?

Ondonti
02-11-2012, 09:20 PM
We need a repository somewhere for that MS calibration info. Put mike to work :P
If i lose my info I won't remember what I set things up as.

As Vigo said, MS cars seem to be slower but for turbo applications I think its the way to go. I will stick with the OEM distributor sending information to MS for now on the low data rate wire. I think my Duster could qualify as used to be fast but is still running MS and I hope its not slower then stock but it could be.
All that extra complication doesn't help diagnosing problems. When the problems are gone then extra complication can be fun. Otherwise its one huge brain exercise.

Sundance 6g72
02-11-2012, 11:01 PM
the only person (to my knoledge ) to tune NA on a dyno was ed and he didnt go as in depth as a pro tuner would have and couldnt get a horsepower reading (or tq reading cant remember)

if you want to be faster than a factury tuned car then you need to take the time out and tune it PROPERLY.

c2xejk
02-12-2012, 01:54 PM
It was torque that it was not reading. Torque is dependent on RPM, hp is read directly.

To tune best, you need a dyno that can hold a particular rpm/load for an extended period of time. Those types of dyno's are pricey... With them you can do sweeps things like spark advance to map the hook and holding at an single RPM/throttle factors out the transitional part of the fueling.

The OEM put a lot of time and effort into tuning the cars to get them just so. It is part of the reason that a piggy-back can be benifitial, you only mess with a narrow area of operation and leave the rest as the factory made it...

Reaper1
02-12-2012, 02:39 PM
Last time I checked the formula for horsepower was the one that was dependent on torque and rpm!

Ondonti
02-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Last time I checked the formula for horsepower was the one that was dependent on torque and rpm!
But that is not how inertial dynos work. They have a set weight of drum and reverse calculate HP from rate of acceleration of the drum. It is impossible to plot torque for the engine unless you can perfectly correct for tire diameter and gearing, or have a functional spark pickup. Many dynos seem to have broken pickups. Dynojet drums also tend to weigh 1.5-2x what your car does so there are some differences in load vs real street driving.

Brake dynos like Ed is talking about can control the speed of the drum as constant and directly spit out torque numbers based upon how much effort the dyno puts into stopping the drum (which would be a known diameter and weight). The fanciest brake dynos can hold a perfect rpm while older ones have to be corrected constantly as you mess with fuel or timing (losing power would drop rpms and gaining power would increase rpms).
That dyno is also a real test for the engine with all that constant loading. Thats why the manufacturer uses mules :P

Reaper1
02-12-2012, 06:46 PM
I thought he was talking about somethings else...nevermind...

Sundance 6g72
02-13-2012, 12:03 AM
edit: not tryin to thread jack, just think its relevant to ed's N/A car. would be damn unique and i dont think its to far from his place.


hey ed, stumbled upon this

do we qualify as Mitsubishi powered cars? i dont see why not

http://www.facebook.com/events/147754038581732/

(http://www.facebook.com/events/147754038581732/)

c2xejk
02-13-2012, 08:38 AM
edit: not tryin to thread jack, just think its relevant to ed's N/A car. would be damn unique and i dont think its to far from his place.


hey ed, stumbled upon this

do we qualify as Mitsubishi powered cars? i dont see why not

http://www.facebook.com/events/147754038581732/

(http://www.facebook.com/events/147754038581732/)

This might be a good "warm-up" for Drag Week...

Sundance 6g72
02-13-2012, 10:01 AM
yep, and alot of fast cars :)

anyways, back to CTS

what sensor do you use?

c2xejk
02-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Chrysler sensor.

I ended up putting the GM data points in and it seems to work correctly. I vaguely remember people talking about putting a different resistor in the MS unit to use the Chrysler sensor... I am guessing that is what Ryan did when he built my unit...

c2xejk
02-13-2012, 01:49 PM
The rules for 2012 have been released ( http://www.hotrod.com/dragweek/hrdp_1202_hot_rod_2012_drag_week_rules_registratio n/ ) and there are enough changes, that I may have to reconsider my plans...

MC#4
02-13-2012, 03:34 PM
That looks like a really cool event! Too bad I'm 1200 miles from the starting point. What class were you planning on running ed?

Sundance 6g72
02-13-2012, 04:45 PM
what rules changed that effect you ed? suspention im guessing?

c2xejk
02-13-2012, 05:45 PM
The event is awesome! If you can find a way to go do! Last year I know of two people that were camping to keep the costs down.

I was going to run Modified normally-aspirated. They increased the rear suspension mod's for 'Modified' (now requires completely different suspension type...) and added 'Super Street Race' in just above 'Street Race'. The rule I was going to use to get into the old modified does not exist in the new Modified or the new 'Super Street'.

On an initial read through of the rules, I think I could get into super street by just running a non-stock spoiler... The questions are, would they really inforce that? Will Super street be sparsely populated... If a non-stock spoiler could 'force' me into super street, my guess is there could be a lot of people there...

I am working through my options. Some of the things being considered are:

Run the car normally-aspirated in Daily Driver, Street or Super Streed.
Find a way to do a conversion to independent rear suspension (or other radically different rear suspension.)
Turbocharge the car and go for daily driver.
Nitrous, would be easier to make some NA passes. (again, this would be in daily driver.)

87turbodance
02-13-2012, 07:26 PM
That is exactly what I did. There are two resistors installed on the board with one for the CTS and IAT respectively. Standard resistor is 2.49k; I installed 10K resistors to run Chrysler sensors without changing any setting in the software. the two resistors and be changed to 2.49K 1% resistors if needed with a soldering iron and some side cutters.
Ryan


Chrysler sensor.

I ended up putting the GM data points in and it seems to work correctly. I vaguely remember people talking about putting a different resistor in the MS unit to use the Chrysler sensor... I am guessing that is what Ryan did when he built my unit...

Sundance 6g72
02-13-2012, 08:42 PM
Turbocharge the car and go for daily driver.


hehehehehehhee

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

just so everyone knows, reason for not wanting to be in Daily driver is that there are alot of 11 second cars in that class.. and most are hardly daily drivable :/

Spiritman
02-13-2012, 10:48 PM
"daily driver" is somewhat of a confused term these days.

c2xejk
02-14-2012, 08:30 AM
For drag week it basically means "not faster than 10.80".

I remember being in the tech line last year when a 60's station wagon pulled out the other end of the tech building. BIG slicks, narrow front tires and engine cammed so big that it struggled to idle... That car was in "daily driver"... :confused:

RoadWarrior222
02-14-2012, 08:34 AM
Yah, I think it means what "street" used to now.

Maybe they should check everyone's insurance policies, to see it's not historical or specialist insurance that limits usage ... if it says no driving to work, or parking in supermarket lots, then it ain't a DD.

Sundance 6g72
02-14-2012, 10:21 AM
its not a DD if you have to go WOT to get anywhere without having issues :P

c2xejk
02-17-2012, 01:29 PM
The manual steering rack has arrived. Once I fix the brakes on my truck, I will see about getting it installed.

After spending time considering running a supercharger, I have convinced myself to go turbo. Lots of good turbos at really good prices... Found a place down in Indianapolis that has what appears to be some good deals. I may use them simply because I can go down there and get a hands on look at the turbo before I plunk down the money.

Right now I need to figure out which turbo.

I am leaning toward a GT3582. Should work now and continue working well as I up the boost.

Others being considered are a T3/T4 hybrid. T04E 60 trim wheel would work. On the turbine side a stage 3 or 5 wheel.

I have also wondered about a full T4 turbo... The concern would be how laggy will the T4 turbine make the setup. I could look at using a small shot of nitrous to help the turbo spool at the track... Any idea how a T4 turbine compares to a T3 stage 3/5 turbine?

With an eye toward more boost, I am starting to research water/alcohol/other stuff injection... I have also wondered if I could use it in combination with 10:1 pistons now... (ie. run 10:1 pistons and modest boost on the street with 93 octane fuel. Then at the track inject water/alcohol/something else so I can run more boost...)

For the header, I am toying with building it a little differently. Lots of details to consider...

Sundance 6g72
02-17-2012, 01:57 PM
words cannot explain the smile on my face right now

i say no to the spray and yes to the water injection. remember now we could only find 91 octane while driving from city to city most of the time. e85 seems scarce down there as well. i think all time water injection is the way to go. Does water injection literally mean water? water is easy to come by :)

i think a big turbo with low boost will make this sucker fly. I think for the sake of simplicity, you would want to flip flop the intakes and somehow make them fit? the dizzy will be deleted, correct? With the throttle bodies on the other side you could go crossover mounted with a FMIC rather than water to air *(unless you prefer water to air like your RT has)


youl need to look into fuel pump and injectors too! jeeze this thing is going to be crazy

clutch too :nod:

c2xejk
02-17-2012, 02:27 PM
words cannot explain the smile on my face right now

i say no to the spray and yes to the water injection. remember now we could only find 91 octane while driving from city to city most of the time. e85 seems scarce down there as well. i think all time water injection is the way to go. Does water injection literally mean water? water is easy to come by :)

Water would need to be distilled water to avoid mineral residue in the engine.

Last night I was reading Graham's Forced induction book and he has several things he recommends instead of water. Most of which increase fuel octane... Figure if I stay out of the boost during the drives, I can conserve whatever I am injecting... (I think one of the options may be available in hardware stores...)


i think a big turbo with low boost will make this sucker fly. I think for the sake of simplicity, you would want to flip flop the intakes and somehow make them fit? the dizzy will be deleted, correct? With the throttle bodies on the other side you could go crossover mounted with a FMIC rather than water to air *(unless you prefer water to air like your RT has)

With this car, I am more willing to cut it up and delete things. On the Spirit I purposely kept the AC. Without AC, there is a lot more room...

Yes I plan on deleting the dizzy. I have a coil pack that I plan on using and need to get that going soon. Plug wires should arrive soon.

Flipping the plenums is a little iffier... I would need a much wider hood scoop (the engine is not centered in the engine bay and the front setup rubs as it is...) What I am planning is running the output side of the turbo compressor on the passenger side. Output of the FMIC (assuming that is the way I go) on the driver's side.

I don't think I have mentioned it yet, I plan on this being a rear mount setup. I will likely move the alternator down to where the PS pump normally resides...

I have also toyed with going back to the stock type plenum that I have with a 68mm TB... I could potentially go back the stock hood.


youl need to look into fuel pump and injectors too! jeeze this thing is going to be crazy

clutch too :nod:

For injectors I have a set of 42# (from a beefed up 3800SC) that I briefly ran on my Spirit. For the fuel pump, the only reason I might be concerned right now is that we put a generic pump in there during last years Drag Week.

Yeah, gotta figure what what clutch... I would like something that is not as much of an on/off switch that the puck clutches tend to be. Anybody have opinions on some of the Kevlar clutches...

A lot of work ahead of me...

Sundance 6g72
02-17-2012, 02:49 PM
my TU 6puck is easy to drive once you get used to it. it almost feels stock imo. i think you would want a heavier PP than me though. mine is their stage two (they say it will do 350 tq reliably)

IDK how far you want to push this motor. my clutch has been holding great so far but im positive im not at 300whp yet.. and i deff havnt head my booost where i need it (3500-4500rpms) I tend to make 8psi and up after 4000rpms (where tq dips :( ) so take that as it is.

http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/clutches-accessories-c-97.html

i like the 6puck but if they promise that their kevlar option will hold the power, then mine as well.


i know you know what your doing, im just trying to lay it all out so i understand whats going on

coil packs, dizzy delete
bigger cam
big valve head
bigger headers (now going turbo headers)
turbo
PS pump relocation (i was thinking something like bobbies instead? but down by PS would be more hidden. youl love the manual rack once your used to it. im starting to like it with the stock rack, just not running the pully)
clutch
injectors
fuel pump (maybe go with the aeromotive pump? if they have one. all our vendors were nice to us. otherwise walbros are cheep and should hold you down


im not caught up yet, does your crank sensor function as it should now? i wish i could come down and help build this thing but the drive is for one, 4-6hours and i have school :P

RoadWarrior222
02-17-2012, 05:55 PM
Water would need to be distilled water to avoid mineral residue in the engine.

Can get that at drug stores as well as car parts places here.

But most folks are using the blue washer fluid (Methanol/water)

c2xejk
02-17-2012, 07:15 PM
Can get that at drug stores as well as car parts places here.

But most folks are using the blue washer fluid (Methanol/water)

blue washer fluid is a possibility. Graham recommends toluol, Avgas (and blends of it), methanol. Toluol (aka Toluene) apparently has very good resistance to detonation...

Vigo
02-17-2012, 08:02 PM
I dont see why there's any question as to a full T4 or 10:1 + boost. Something like an o-trim/.68 t4 turbine isnt even that big. I dont think you'd have any trouble spooling it, or even NEEDING it to spool, considering you were launching at 1100 rpm and still able to do a half-decent ET (most people's run would be immediately ruined, like an extra second, with an 1100 rpm launch..).

Honestly, if you plan to shift at 6500 or higher i would skip a small t4 and go straight for something bigger. Youd have a hard time spooling anything but the biggest t4s LATER than 3000-4000 rpm so i dont think there's much to worry about.

As for 10:1 + boost.. been done. The pistons are proven to be strong.

Also, people around here tend not to do water injection, with the result that, imo, it's not well appreciated how great it can be.

So i say full t4, 10:1, and water injection!

Sundance 6g72
02-17-2012, 11:28 PM
my thoughts exactly.. go big! your reving to 7200-7500 wity big valve heads

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM -------

Ondonti
02-18-2012, 05:51 AM
Since you can rev, big turbo is fine.

c2xejk
02-18-2012, 11:18 AM
As of right now, I am not going to go with a bigger valve head this year. I will likely be working on an evolving multi-year build.

This year I am going for Daily Driver and make the fast 32 shoot-out. My estimate is it will take a 12.2 to make the shoot-out. Without a roll-bar/cage I will be limited to 11.5. That correlates to 320-380 whp. I think that is doable with a re-ring (possibly 10:1 pistons) and a turbo (and suspension mods.)

In future years I will look at adding a roll-bar/cage and more engine mods so I can run close to the 10.8 limit of daily driver or go after Street or Super Street class.

These are some of the turbos I am considering. The first one is my current top choice, but I am open to considering others.
http://www.speedyracer.com/turbo/turbocharger/GT35-TURBO-GT3582-Turbo-Charger(500hp) (http://www.speedyracer.com/turbo/turbocharger/GT35-TURBO-GT3582-Turbo-Charger%28500hp%29)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-T4-GT35-Turbo-Charger-0-68-AR-Super-Fast-500-HP-Eclipse-Mustang-/140667236374?_trksid=e17001.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D6%26ps%3D 63%26clkid%3D6417963313477105081

http://www.speedyracer.com/turbo/turbocharger/Turbocharger-T70-(4-Bolt) (http://www.speedyracer.com/turbo/turbocharger/Turbocharger-T70-%284-Bolt%29)

http://www.speedyracer.com/turbo/turbocharger/T4-T04B-GT45-Turbocharger

http://www.speedyracer.com/turbo/turbocharger/Dodge-Ram-1500-2500-3500-EMUSA-Upgrade-Diesel-HX40-HX40W-Turbo-Charger-T4-Flang

shayne
02-18-2012, 01:37 PM
exersize extreme caution with buying overseas turbo's, if the real garret gt35r is about 1200 new and found for 700-900 used than there is something lost when it is duplicated overseas and sold for less than the costs of component castings pre machining, you get what you pay for. for every one story about a good chinese turbo i myself read probably 4-5 bad ones, you get what you pay for. im looking forward to seeing this car completed, hopefully i will have my own turbo 3l done soon.

Sundance 6g72
02-18-2012, 01:57 PM
^ troof

although i recently read on DSM tuners that garret has been doing funky things with their turbos lately. i guess buying brand new legit ones isnt the way to go anymore either. something about them being built oversees in a sketchy place. but i cant find the link to back this info up


my cx racing turbo works great, dr shreds does also (although he did blow one of his up and wasnt clear as to how but did say it was his fault iirc)

brent also ran a ebay turbo (unsure of the brand) that worked well. p trim or something turbo iirc.

CX racing seems to be the better brand as far as cheep turbo stuff goes. some will argue that they are the same casting as the crappy stuff but im not convinced. i keep reading more and more success stories with them vs. the generic noname seller's on ebay. They have their own websight too.. not that that makes them good but they are more legit than the noname ebay people who you cant get in contact with and probably dont even run boosted cars them selves.

if going as cheep as cheep gets, go cx racing. otherwise i support the holset choice. they love lots of boost and seem to be very reliable. DSM guys love them, our 4cyl guys seem to love them, brent runs one, i see honda guys with them.

c2xejk
02-18-2012, 02:22 PM
exersize extreme caution with buying overseas turbo's, if the real garret gt35r is about 1200 new and found for 700-900 used than there is something lost when it is duplicated overseas and sold for less than the costs of component castings pre machining, you get what you pay for. for every one story about a good chinese turbo i myself read probably 4-5 bad ones, you get what you pay for. im looking forward to seeing this car completed, hopefully i will have my own turbo 3l done soon.

Agreed, that is why I would like to see the turbo in person. I am also open to other turbo options (new and used).

How "big" of a turbo is a Holset HX40W?

Mdoe8
02-18-2012, 03:18 PM
I believe cx racing is just another company that buys all of the same chinese parts.

If you're going for a cheaper turbo on a budget, Holset or Master Power are GREAT choices.

Sundance 6g72
02-18-2012, 03:20 PM
^ i agree that they are not the optimal choice for someone who can afford something better. Im just saying im not afraid of picking them because from the stories im reading, they seem to be getting better. mine has not done any funny business to me (yet?)


but i support a push for holsets. they HAVE to be reliable to run on a cummins that should go for 300k miles

Mdoe8
02-18-2012, 03:43 PM
I definitely agree that they've gotten better. I remember years ago some of the parts were held together by glue, so they would fall apart!

They seem to be getting more and more reliable though.

c2xejk
02-18-2012, 04:17 PM
I am looking at a variety of used turbos. Problem is for many of them I have to ask a bunch of questions to figure out exactly what it is... Another option I am considering is rebuilding a T04E 60 trim and put a stage 5 wheel on it. (bought it used and the seller told me it had a stage 3 turbine, it has a stage 1...)

On the holset is this the HX40W? It looks a little small flow wise (seems to favor pressure.)
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/index.php?version=4&target_peak_power=400&pr_ref=14.696&engine_disp=3.0&engine_disp_factor=0&target_af=12&bfsc=0.43&max_ic_loss=1.7&rpm_redline=7500&rpm_peak_power=5500&rpm_max_boost=3800&rpm_min_boost=3000&vol_1=89&vol_2=93&vol_3=90&vol_4=78&vol_1=89&vol_2=93&vol_3=90&vol_4=78&intake_temp_1=90&intake_temp_2=120&intake_temp_3=135&intake_temp_4=140&turbo_n=1&map_sel0=125

Sundance 6g72
02-18-2012, 04:29 PM
link no work for me. usually they dont work when they are flash based stuff like that (or similar)

i wouldnt buy a used cx turbo thats for sure. the price of the one you provided should have been new iiirc for those sizes that they offer.

Ondonti
02-18-2012, 06:21 PM
The Holset compressor maps out there are all very suspect. I would worry only about the inducer diameter on the compressor wheel.

Hx40 has a larger turbine wheel then mine and with that larger housing, it will be laggy. Not saying it will be so laggy that you will hate it.
A good compressor wheel match is a 60mm compressor but that turbo was also available with 56mm I believe. My He341 has the newer smaller turbine wheel, small housing, and 56mm compressor. He351's are exactly the same with a 60mm compressor housing. 60mm hx40's could be hard to find but the good side is if you want to blow your budget, there are aftermarket t3 .70a/r housings available from bullseye.

I don't think the 60 trim fits the 3.0 very well, especially when you rev above 6000.

T66 turbo or a T61 (smaller) are good oldschool choices if you are trying to find deals. 60-1 or 62-1 are larger then 60 trims and also should fit better (more flow at the same pressure level). Quick google shows the T61 selling a lot for Supras with their own style inlet flange. Maybe look at a cheap brand name Borg Warner in the 60 mm or so size?
gt35 is okay but a fake gt35...I have no idea how it compares to other fake turbos. I wouldn't use a T70 if the turbo is actually a T70. That turbo has a stupid compressor map.

I like the idea of slowly upgrading. That will keep you from having to get it all nailed down right away, and it will let you keep being excited for the next thing.
If you are slowly upgrading, I would rather pick a turbo once, be super happy with it, run super low boost, and have it all work great. Build your manifold and downpipe and IC system and never worry about that part again. Then do your head magic later etc. Just build the stuff so it will handle your increased power goals. What is your turbo requirement when you want to get towards the 10.8? That is what I would think about. With good headwork I think you would get there on less then 30 pounds of boost and maybe even only 20 depending on how your setup works together and how large your turbo is. Megasquirt opens new doors that I have not spent much time investigating.
The 6262 that Kyle got for his car is a great turbo that would do everything you want and spool better then my 67mm P trim. Maybe you can get one for 900 bucks and never look back. If you are cool with a cheap turbo and trying a different setup in the future then thats all a budget and time thing.

Vigo will hopefully get to drive my He341 in March if you are waiting that long so he can give his opinion on the feel of a conservative HE341. I would rather have the 351 for racing or a known good legit Hx40 with 60mm compressor. Hx40 will make more power on less boost but I watched Bansheenut frag his when he had a boost leak. It ran very very well before that compared to He351 cars here. Much better on less boost. Turbine housings for the hx40 are all over the place so I can't give advice except that I know there are aftermarket options. Holsets of those generations are harder and harder to find so don't expect easy replacements or even finding the first one cheap. The secret has been out for awhile :(

http://www.maperformance.com/precision-turbo-pte-billet-6262-hp-technology-series-t3-t4-turbocharger-670hp-pte-6262.html
Get to4S without ported shroud and .68 t4 turbine with V band. No extra charge for your choices. Worst thing about my holset was the downpipe and the fact that I couldn't locate the proper flange. Would have bought a Garret 55 or 58mm V band if I could do it over.

Irocelectric93
02-18-2012, 10:52 PM
I like what Brent said about slowly upgrading. As I've gone along ive come to the realization that i am into my "build" like 3 years and have very little accomplished. Although i've sank alot of money into it...parts that arent on the car etc. I can say that the 35R would be a good choice but you could go the Precision route like brent stated and be just as happy and make just as much power (basically) on less money. Billet wheel FTW. I know your car will breath and rev so big is good as brent stated above. Go 6262 or 6762 most likely. What are your intake possibilites? Header design?

RoadWarrior222
02-18-2012, 11:08 PM
I just end up chasing stupid little maintenance things down instead of progressing, or redoing crap I considered "done" because I can't find a part that wasn't made in China.

shayne
02-18-2012, 11:29 PM
actually the 60 trim is a very good size for a 3l if you want to keep the power reasonable and purchase the correct turbine wheel and housing. this is why i bought the turbo that shadow had for sale. if you look at the compressor maps, this will show you that at approx 450bhp and 6800 rpm the compressor will be at ~65% efficiency, while the upward curve follows the surge line in parallel right at the left edge of the peak efficiency. which is important because you dont want to pump excessively hot air into the engine at that point in the rpm range. it would just be a matter of using the right turbine wheel and housing to suit your flow and rpm requirements and these are things that talking to a turbo manufacturer would solve to a close match to perfect.
this information has been confirmed by engineers i work with and another engineer who works at a company called adp distributors who sell garret and rotomaster turbo's.

Ondonti
02-19-2012, 12:10 AM
I think Ed would be pushing it way too hard with how he runs his motor and how it will eventually flow. His 3L will just move too much air at low boost pressures.

I think some of this will depend where he revs. Another thing to think about is that if you do have a 60 trim with a t4 housing, you could always go with a hotter turbo in the future and still not have to ditch any exhaust parts. The t4 setup will help it make more power. The downside is that you can't run much more then 20 pounds of boost. 60 trim does flow a lot per pound of boost compared to the rest of it's family.

Try dropping the BSFC a bit to the higher 40's with our 3.0 to get more useful information. He might get lower with his better setup but no point choosing turbos off theoretical best case scenario.

Also, Franks calculator tends to act more like crank hp then wheel HP. Usually makes me feel quite good about myself :o

Vigo
02-19-2012, 10:42 AM
Vigo will hopefully get to drive my He341 in March if you are waiting that long so he can give his opinion on the feel of a conservative HE341.

W00t!

I dont have anything to add except that that hx40 being advertised as 800hp-capable and then clearly saying 56mm inducer... seems pretty stupid.

I agree with what brent is saying about worrying primarily about inducer size on the compressor side as your first rule on whether to keep looking into a turbo, or rule it out immediately. My .02 is that a 56mm inducer is too small for your later goals. As brent also said, 67 is definitely bigger than you need. So you can see i have nothing new to add except to regurgitate the ~62 recommendation. lol

Ondonti
02-20-2012, 12:32 AM
Or an older used 61mm setup with either stage 5 but preferably P trim. Not going to work as well but it will make power.

c2xejk
03-06-2012, 11:05 PM
Start with the good news. I have started purchasing parts and tools for the Shadows rebuild. Found the OBX LSD for $375 shipped! Should be hear Friday. The Belleville washers and bolts should also arrive soon.

Now for the bad news. I rebuilt the turbo on my Spirit R/T last weekend. Took it for a test drive and things were going great. It had great power and was making boost. Then it struggled to idle and was running pig rich. I suspected one or more injectors were leaking, but they checked out.

Tonight I Did a compression test and all the cylinders were in the 160-170 range except #1 which was ZERO... I have to pull the head, but I am suspecting a burned valve... This is likely going to delay my digging into the Shadow for a week or more...

Sundance 6g72
03-06-2012, 11:12 PM
.... my cyl is messed up to

welcome to the club!

Mdoe8
03-07-2012, 01:37 PM
I've got a Turbonetics T66 with a .68 A/R that I can sell you for $550 shipped if you're interested.

Also have an ebay T61 that I'd sell for $300 shipped

Sundance 6g72
03-09-2012, 04:38 PM
have you thought about a 180* or less t stat? the car got prett damn hot when we would hit the city driving after being in the sun for 3+ plus hours

c2xejk
03-09-2012, 05:22 PM
Not sure how much of a difference it would have made during the trip from Topeka to Great Bend. Everybody was running hot that day. The reversed coolant fan doesn't help. The stat should have been open for a long time... Probably more helpful would be prevent air from leaking around the radiator...

That said, I may still throw a 180 stat in there...

Sundance 6g72
03-09-2012, 05:23 PM
mine as well.. they are cheep as it gets and might buy you a little time.

c2xejk
03-09-2012, 11:11 PM
Parts for the build are starting to arrive.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8529/1004435b.jpg

Sundance 6g72
03-10-2012, 12:08 AM
:) woooo

c2xejk
03-10-2012, 01:46 PM
Found out why I had zero compression on the Spirit's #1 cylinder... The intake seat is falling out...

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8042/1004438p.jpg

RoadWarrior222
03-10-2012, 02:08 PM
That's usually a sign of overheating... on other motors, quite a bit of carnage usually ensues.... maybe you just caught it in time.

Ondonti
03-10-2012, 02:58 PM
better then a burned valve. I don't want to hear about our valves failing with turbo abuse :P

Also good that its on the cold intake side.

Sundance 6g72
03-10-2012, 03:48 PM
this is offtopic, but was that combustion chamber milled out a little bit? (talking about area to the right of the valves.

c2xejk
03-10-2012, 06:26 PM
this is offtopic, but was that combustion chamber milled out a little bit? (talking about area to the right of the valves.

No. The combustion chamber is stock.

I pulled the front head and found a small issue that I am also going to take care of while the engine is apart. The heads have been disassembled ,cleaned and are ready to head to the machine shop. Probably going to upgrade to 3.3L spring while I have the heads apart.

c2xejk
03-14-2012, 12:27 PM
While I wait on the machine shop and for parts to arrive so I can finish up the Spirit, I started wondering what coolant I should run during Drag Week. Since I am doing a rebuild, now is a good time to make a switch if I want to.

Some of the options being toyed with:


50/50 Ethelyne Glycol, same stuff as last year. I didn't overheat, but the engine did get very hot during the trip to Great Bend.
Water with ???, better heat carrying capacity than EG. Boiling point with a standard radiator cap should be 240-250. Any issue with micro boiling (boiling in just one section of the head, ie near the exhaust ports?) Where can you get an additive package so I have the corrosion protection and water pump lubricant?
75% water/ 25% EG. A little extra boiling protection but still a fairly high heat carrying capacity. Additives from the coolant.
Some other coolant. ie. Evans, Engine Ice, HOAT, ????


Keep in mind that I am happy to run one coolant during Drag Week, then change it after DW. (ie. straight water during DW, then 50/50 EG so it doesn't freeze during winter...) I don't plan on changing coolant at the track unless I absolutely have to...

On a related note, I am also thinking about running an oil cooler to help keep the temps down...

86Shelby
03-14-2012, 02:14 PM
Water wetter is something you can put in with straight water to help with boiling temp, lubrication and also supposedly helps transfer heat better. I would lean towards making sure the radiator ends are blocked off, making the air flow through rather than around the radiator. Also make sure the radiator itself is in good shape.

Sundance 6g72
03-14-2012, 02:42 PM
out of respect for the drag strip guys who clean up spills, i say run water for DW then back to your usual stuff. Its 10x easier to clean up and they actually ask that you run water iirc.

you never now when your 10:1 and boost will lift the head off the car and dump coolant everywhere from your mad powerr! :p

Ondonti
03-14-2012, 09:57 PM
I ran straight water because it made the track people much happier. Sometimes used water wetter.

Sundance 6g72
03-14-2012, 10:29 PM
Ed dosnt plan on blowing the head off the block at 500whp though.


i dont think http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/xeye.gif

c2xejk
03-25-2012, 07:16 PM
First week in April is my son's spring break. So during it he and I will be rebuilding the engine for this year's DW. Right now I am still waiting on the machine shop to get finish with the Spirit's head, so I don't want to take down the Shadow to measure to make sure I order the right parts. So plan B is to rebuild the used engine I have in the shop that I had used for fitting headers.

I originally thought it was an '87 or '88 engine because of the adapter plate, fuel rail, etc. Yesterday I took it apart to measure, when I pulled the valve covers, I knew that was not the case. It has roller rockers... Pulled the heads and a piston and confirmed that it is newer. The top ring was a 1.2mm ring.

All the bearings show almost no wear so I think I will leave them alone and just do a rering job.

On the down side the coolant passages appear to be mucked up and will need some cleaning... I masked off the block and bead blasted it, then shot it with a coat of paint.

Right now I am trying to debate the clutch configuration. Sprung or unsprung hub? 3, 4 or 6 puck clutch. Right now I am leaning toward a 6-puck sprung hub to keep it streetable. But I have been debating the unsprung hub.

Sundance 6g72
03-25-2012, 08:04 PM
turbos ubleashed has a 6puck kit. id get something above stage two. mine is a stage two and has never slipped but im sure youl make more power than me.



its dd able too.. the stiffer pp might make things harsher but its worth it

c2xejk
03-25-2012, 09:13 PM
In addition to the TU clutches, I am thinking about this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Competition-Clutch-Kit-Stage-4-91-93-Dodge-Daytona-IROC-Caravan-Chrysler-LeBaron-/120872336032?hash=item1c248d7aa0&item=120872336032&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

My guess right now is that the solid hub wouldn't be as streetable as I want. If I was staying NA, I might still be considering it.

Ondonti
03-25-2012, 09:55 PM
Regarding Sprung hub. It might save your axles....but shifting at high rpms on a sprung 6 puck might not be awesome. Heavy combo.

Irocelectric93
03-26-2012, 11:06 AM
Rob has used an ACT clutch from an SRT-4 and got Carroll to as well. They love it. It'd be a little pricey but in my opinion having a car thats DD able and being able to hold like 600 hp or more would be nice. Regarding sprung and unsprung..... I know the argument about the unsprung being lighter etc etc but I seem to see more sprung hubs over unsprung (maybe im crazy) which sort of leaves me with the impression of...hey maybe theres a reason for that. Like Brent said above...could save axles which blowing axles isn't something you want to be doing unless you want to spend money for some DSS axles.

Sundance 6g72
03-26-2012, 11:17 AM
at drag week, saving axles would probebly be prefferable :)

c2xejk
03-26-2012, 12:49 PM
I just went to register for Drag Week and found out that they have hit there 200 car limit!!!! I submitted my name in case somebody drops out, but I am not holding out much hope... Majorly BUMMED. I did not expect it to fill so quickly!

MC#4
03-26-2012, 01:12 PM
I just went to register for Drag Week and found out that they have hit there 200 car limit!!!! I submitted my name in case somebody drops out, but I am not holding out much hope... Majorly BUMMED. I did not expect it to fill so quickly!

Well that sucks! Do you know if you are the first one on the "substitute" list?

forcedfedmopar
03-26-2012, 01:16 PM
yup, im in the same boat. I guess we will be #1 and #2 registered for 2013.

c2xejk
03-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Well that sucks! Do you know if you are the first one on the "substitute" list?

I have no clue where I am on the list... Probably not first given how popular the event seems to be this year. Last year there were 170 something cars. This year they hit 200 EARLY...

forcedfedmopar
03-26-2012, 02:35 PM
I have no clue where I am on the list... Probably not first given how popular the event seems to be this year. Last year there were 170 something cars. This year they hit 200 EARLY...

We will just have to be #1 and #2 on 2013s list. No excuses to not be ready by then!

Sundance 6g72
03-26-2012, 07:28 PM
damn... i was going to ask if you registered when i saw jeff was too late


o wells you guys can do sdac or see me at import alliance :thumb:

c2xejk
03-26-2012, 09:11 PM
I am strongly considering going to SDAC.

Ondonti
03-26-2012, 09:56 PM
That sure is a bummer. My suggestion about a sprung hub really had to do with drag week and avoiding axle swaps. Axles are something you should have a spare of anyways. Not that I ever do.

Not sure exactly what ACT clutch setup they are going with. I know that it doesn't shift well at high rpms if its the one I have seen Chuck use in his stock block HP record holder.

Force Fed Mopar
03-27-2012, 10:30 AM
That sure is a bummer. My suggestion about a sprung hub really had to do with drag week and avoiding axle swaps. Axles are something you should have a spare of anyways. Not that I ever do.

Not sure exactly what ACT clutch setup they are going with. I know that it doesn't shift well at high rpms if its the one I have seen Chuck use in his stock block HP record holder.

So in other words, if we get the valvetrain worked out to handle 8-9k rpm, we'll be needing unprung discs? Yay :( Although Shadow has a solid disc (I think) and says it does fine on the street.

Vigo
03-27-2012, 11:59 AM
Brent had an unsprung disc too, and if i remember correctly he complained a lot more about the pressure plate than the unsprung hub.

c2xejk
03-27-2012, 04:42 PM
Just talked to the machine shop. One valve on the Spirit's heads was bent, not a surprise... I will drop off a replacement valve tomorrow and with a little luck I will have the heads back soon.

c2xejk
04-07-2012, 07:58 AM
The heads are back on the Spirit and it appears to be fine other than a blowing off an intercooler hose.

The Shadow's next block has been disassembled, honed and cleaned. The pistons need to be cleaned and the rings gapped. With a little luck I might get to that today.

Ondonti
04-07-2012, 08:00 PM
Brent had an unsprung disc too, and if i remember correctly he complained a lot more about the pressure plate than the unsprung hub.
No complaints about my plate. I just don't like breaking axles. Some of that is the driver mod which I don't have on launch. Need to take out the slack before letting go of the clutch.

Vigo
04-08-2012, 09:17 AM
Gotcha, memory fails me again. I called a local friend before my first time racing on slicks and that was one thing he mentioned: let out the clutch enough that it takes the slack out of the drivetrain before dumping it the rest of the way out. The one time i didnt do this is the time i completely spun the slicks. So my 23" slicks i guess dont have the sheer traction to just BREAK the drivetrain.

RoadWarrior222
04-08-2012, 09:49 AM
Man I thought that was stick driving 101 right there, bring clutch in to bite before setting off and releasing fully.... and if you can't do it, keep your friggin' heel on the floor and hinge off it, a clutch is not an on/off switch.

Ondonti
04-08-2012, 06:03 PM
Man I thought that was stick driving 101 right there, bring clutch in to bite before setting off and releasing fully.... and if you can't do it, keep your friggin' heel on the floor and hinge off it, a clutch is not an on/off switch.

Its a bit difficult when you hook up launch control and use it at the track without ever testing it...zero muscle memory. Also hard when your clutch has a microscopic slip window and you don't want to redlight. Its not that hard if you don't care about redlighting. That is why I want a staging brake in the Duster for the future.

People with more practice or skills will have better luck with axles. Or people who have a safer launch point but do a poor job. Slippery clutches will also be very forgiving. My best 60' ever was on a slipping 3 puck that would not even hold power in 1st gear (couldn't run faster then 13's no matter how well things ran).

I looked at a Carbonetic blade clutch (carbon pucked clutch instead of a multidisc carbon style from them) because in contrast to ceramic/metallic, they grip better the hotter they get, good for hard launches and shifts. They slip on impacts until they get very warm. Way too expensive if they even had one available for us :(

Vigo
04-09-2012, 08:15 PM
Yeah, it would take insane precision to get your spirit clutch to do what i was talking about, now that ive driven it. I assume the Duster was even touchier. I really want to try a DD plate with a stock disc..

Ondonti
04-09-2012, 09:53 PM
3 puck clutch requires more precision but it doesn't chatter like the Spirit. I think the Aluminum flywheel leads to worse clutch engagement (excess chatter). That said, I also swapped to a stock flywheel in the Duster which I was not used to racing/launching and that probably added to my problems.
I don't know what I like more. Light flywheel and poor engagement or slow reving motor but happier left foot.

c2xejk
04-17-2012, 01:05 PM
Since Drag Week for this year is looking iffy, I have been debating what to do with the Shadow's build... Right now I am thinking of keeping it normally-aspirated through SDAC. Then after SDAC start adding a turbo.

So that has me debating the details... A chunk of the budget for the build was spent getting the Spirit back on it's feet...



Fresh bottom end are a given since it is already built.
Manual rack is also a given since it is already on hand.
OBX LSD is also here and ready to go in.
DIS coil pack should be doable.
Toying with a more aggressive cam and a full header.
May do a side-exit exhaust (no muffler) for drag racing.



The race cam may require some machine shop work or solid/adjustable lifters. So I have to see if I can find the $$$.

The cost for the full header is more reasonable, so it might well happen. Down side is I wouldn't be able to use it with a turbo...

Sundance 6g72
04-17-2012, 01:30 PM
remember, your origonal goal was to have the fastest NA 12valve 6g72. You can pull it off as it sits with a perfect tune. Traction and the tune jumping around is what got us.

i think if you spend your time on the dyno instead of figuring out a bigger cam and this and that, you can make something work. Yeah the cam might be to small for your intake and exhaust but that didnt stop Josh Simon from running a 14.2.

RoadWarrior222
04-17-2012, 01:54 PM
I remember a TD thread back in the day, prolly at least 5 years back, where we came up with some cheap shortie header option that looked like it just needed redrilling the flange... was not a mitsu header... anyway, they dissappeared off eBay while we were still BSing about it... the thread went cold...

anyhoooo... being a shorty, it was thought that some approximation of stock routing might be achieved, rather than going under, and also being a shorty, there's more of a chance it would be adaptable to a turbo... so all I'm saying is that thread might be worth digging out and looking at again...

I'd say skip the DIS unless it's getting realllly necessary for the tune, I really don't think there's a hell of a lot on the table with the ignition...

Also I'd be wary of running batch fire + wasted spark + wild cam... depending what you're converting from/to..

87turbodance
04-17-2012, 02:06 PM
The only header discussion that I can recall that follows what your are saying is the one about adapting SSAutoChrome Grand Prix headers.

These are similar but from someone else:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$%28KGrHqN,!i0E3SGCFGI1BN6VS5j%28qg~~0_12.JPG
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/97-08-PONTIAC-GRAND-PRIX-GTP-3-8L-HEADER-03-04-05-06-07-/190541121393?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5d22c771

Mopar3.0 ran these with 3.0 12V exhaust flanges welded in place of the GP flanges. He had to do a bunch of mods to fit them and the primarys may be too large.

turbovanmanČ
04-17-2012, 02:32 PM
I wouldn't run coolant at the track, they get pissy about it. I run water and water wetter in the summer, works great. Oil cooler is a good idea if it runs hot, I put one on and now it runs too cold, lol.

I've tried Evans and the jury is still out, not sure I gained anything except draining my wallet. I did alot of research after I got it and it seems it actually costs power.

RoadWarrior222
04-17-2012, 02:50 PM
The only header discussion that I can recall that follows what your are saying is the one about adapting SSAutoChrome Grand Prix headers. ...

Mopar3.0 ran these with 3.0 12V exhaust flanges welded in place of the GP flanges. He had to do a bunch of mods to fit them and the primarys may be too large.

Think that was a more recent development than I was thinking... though it could have been earlier discussion of it... I seem to be thinking nissan or toyota.

It's the cross sectional area of a primary that counts, so you can "tune" a big one by pounding it flatter, making it more oval. However, this does increase the surface area to volume ratio, so inefficiency from heat loss is a tad greater than perfectly sized round tubes.

Ondonti
04-17-2012, 03:48 PM
I wouldn't dump money in with the expectation of being the fastest, just go with what you want to do for the sake of fun or experimentation. When there are other fish in the sea you can't always get the trophy you want and you might feel like you wasted money.

c2xejk
04-17-2012, 05:57 PM
The only header discussion that I can recall that follows what your are saying is the one about adapting SSAutoChrome Grand Prix headers.

These are similar but from someone else:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/97-08-PONTIAC-GRAND-PRIX-GTP-3-8L-HEADER-03-04-05-06-07-/190541121393?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5d22c771

Mopar3.0 ran these with 3.0 12V exhaust flanges welded in place of the GP flanges. He had to do a bunch of mods to fit them and the primarys may be too large.

Yup converting a 3800 header is what I had in mind...

---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------


I wouldn't run coolant at the track, they get pissy about it. I run water and water wetter in the summer, works great. Oil cooler is a good idea if it runs hot, I put one on and now it runs too cold, lol.

Yup I am planning on water (and water wetter) in the car for SDAC.

---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 PM ----------


It's the cross sectional area of a primary that counts, so you can "tune" a big one by pounding it flatter, making it more oval. However, this does increase the surface area to volume ratio, so inefficiency from heat loss is a tad greater than perfectly sized round tubes.

Based on my looking a while back, it appears the heads come with about 3 different primary pipe sizes... I was looking at the 1.5" primaries.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------


I wouldn't dump money in with the expectation of being the fastest, just go with what you want to do for the sake of fun or experimentation. When there are other fish in the sea you can't always get the trophy you want and you might feel like you wasted money.

Experimentation is a big part of it...

Force Fed Mopar
04-17-2012, 08:32 PM
Weren't VG30 headers close?

c2xejk
04-18-2012, 12:23 PM
Weren't VG30 headers close?

Based on pictures the VG30 route the pipes differently. ie. either for a RWD or under the engine... The 3800 headers are routed up over the trans like the 3L does...

c2xejk
04-18-2012, 12:54 PM
I'd say skip the DIS unless it's getting realllly necessary for the tune, I really don't think there's a hell of a lot on the table with the ignition...

Also I'd be wary of running batch fire + wasted spark + wild cam... depending what you're converting from/to..

I had not considered the risk of wasted spark and wild cam. Not sure how much difference batch fire makes because in the upper RPM band the injectors are going to be on a lot...

I had to think back to my original reason for going to wasted spark. It was to make additional intake changes easier by getting the distributor out of the way... Not as necessary if I am going to hold with the current intake setup...

I forgot to mention I will also be installing air bags to firm up the rear suspension and help launches.

Sundance 6g72
04-18-2012, 02:09 PM
still going subi front coil overs?

c2xejk
04-18-2012, 04:18 PM
still going subi front coil overs?

Not yet... Other than air bags in the rear and maybe some alignment tweaking, I plan on leaving the suspension alone.

Force Fed Mopar
04-18-2012, 06:33 PM
Based on pictures the VG30 route the pipes differently. ie. either for a RWD or under the engine... The 3800 headers are routed up over the trans like the 3L does...

VG30 also came in Maximas :) Can't remember how their exhaust was routed though, might have been under the pan like the Mitsu's. I was thinking more for the flanges anyway, but I guess a flange is the easy part to make.

c2xejk
04-19-2012, 09:54 PM
Cheap water pump bolt came with the new water pump housing... The torque wrench was set to 28Nm and I wasn't reaching the torque. Pulled the bolt out and found that it was necking down... Much more and it would have broken...

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9079/waterpumpbolt.jpg

Ondonti
04-20-2012, 06:59 AM
housing bolt or to the block bolt? I didn't bother torqing mine because they seemed pretty snug. Mine were ghetto hardware store style bolts but 10mm. I didn't want to torque mine because I figured they overtorqued it already.

c2xejk
04-20-2012, 07:22 AM
Housing to the block bolts. The bolts came with the new housing I bought for the water pump. I suspect hardware store bolts will do better.

RoadWarrior222
04-20-2012, 07:49 AM
Probably. Hardware store bolts are usually at least grade 5.

I've found that before. And if I open a part and the bolts are not graded, when the factory part has grade 8+ on, it goes straight back to the store, I don't even TRY fitting it, from past experience if they can't even put good bolts in the part is likely to last minutes.

c2xejk
04-21-2012, 09:41 PM
Today I installed the manual steering rack in the Shadow. In the past the steering had been very light. Now the steering is definitely a lot heavier. Not unbearable, but definitely heavier. Once in motion the steering feels tighter than before.

Since the adapter that came with the unit doesn't fit column in the car, I opted to weld the one for PS rack to the manual rack.

The 530K5 belt was a tad long so until I get a shorter belt (tomorrow?) I put the long bolt for the alternator on top of the mount. With a little tweaking I was able to get it to work.

It frees up a considerable amount of space on the back side of block. Net weight savings is on the order 15 lbs.

Ondonti
04-21-2012, 09:48 PM
Would be interested to hear how you like it if that Shadow gets turbo'd. My worry is having to manhandle the steering when accellerating. I like being able to basically go where you want to with a few fingers even when everything is spinning. I did not like the defeated power rack I drove once even with very moderate power (T2 Z). I think the space is more important then the weight. The weight is a good tradeoff for the power steering but the space there would be nice (plus simplify taking things apart there).

My pump didn't even come with bolts so I reused OEM.

Reaper1
04-22-2012, 02:51 PM
The manual rack is geared so it doesn't take that much effort to steer the car. I had one in my old LeBaron and I liked it over the P/S which always felt overboosted in that car.

Sundance 6g72
04-23-2012, 12:29 AM
i put the bolt up top too.. couldnt find a better way without making something custom.

c2xejk
04-23-2012, 11:57 AM
Yesterday I picked up a 520K5 belt, but have not installed it yet. By some quicky measuring, moving the bolt changes the desired belt length by ~1.25-1.5".

I was surprised the 53" belt was too long. I thought it was supposed to go on tight... But that may be more so with the newer style belt layout (tensioner mounted by the alternator vs. the older style tensioner mounted by the crank.)


My initial impression is that pulling the PS pump off the belt makes a greater hp improvement than an UDP.


During my test driving Sunday I finally got around to logging a "hiccup" the car has been experiencing during cruise. For a while I thought it was a problem with the crank position sensor because it has a similar feel, but the sync lost counter never changes and the AF reading spikes rich, not lean.

The log confirmed that the fuel pulse nearly doubles for a brief period (less than a second.) TPSAcc also spikes, but I am not running any TPS enrichment (only MAP based enrichment.) So that shouldn't cause the increased fuel, but it does correlate. Anybody know if there are multiple TPS based enrichments in the MS2 code?

Toying with disconnecting the TPS to see if that gets rid of the problem.

Sundance 6g72
04-23-2012, 12:30 PM
sounds like my problem too.. mine seems to go lean though

c2xejk
04-23-2012, 12:38 PM
Trying to figure out what TPSAcc is. It may be generic for TPS and MAP-based enrichment... That would imply that there is some kind of MAP signal spike (electrical or vacuum.) I will need to look at MAPdot and see what the value is...

Sundance 6g72
04-23-2012, 02:22 PM
keep us posted. i havnt touched my tune sense the rebuild and i have not noticed much of my issue BUT its still there every once and a while. usually 2200-2400rpms at light load. i usually go lean at that point but i also have forced it to be rich in that area and it made no difference. changes in timing also did not effect anything. tried 20* and 40* along with everything in the middle.

Ondonti
04-23-2012, 03:34 PM
Ed, have you ever felt the "old hall sensor" hickup at 3000 rpms? I have an OEM ecu that hickups at 2050 rpms but keeps misfiring until you change load levels or RPM. I never understood the distributor based problem. My MS car had hickups that were annoying but I ignored them. Hopefully this summer I get to drive my MS2 car and mess more with drivability and pay attention to those small problems.

Do you know what an MS reset sounds/feels like or what a log would look like?

Sundance 6g72
04-24-2012, 12:06 AM
i think the issue he is having feels different than a ms reset (like when you burn changes) its not as violent.

c2xejk
04-24-2012, 07:36 AM
In the log you can see where the injectors were commanded open longer. Here is an example of one that is that is perplexing. I can see the MAP spike (some you can't), but the spike is negative and the injector spike is positive and very large (more than 3x the surrounding pulse width...)

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8176/hiccup2.jpg

RoadWarrior222
04-24-2012, 08:34 AM
Ed, have you ever felt the "old hall sensor" hickup at 3000 rpms? I have an OEM ecu that hickups at 2050 rpms but keeps misfiring until you change load levels or RPM. I never understood the distributor based problem. Supposedly, the OEM tune pulls a LOT of timing between 2000 and 3000 RPM for emissions reasons. This is also supposed to be common on all EFI vehicles of the era. I would suspect that fuelling is tightly controlled in that area too, not much available for trim... thus anything with mods and no tune, tends to run lumpy in that area. I just lost a stumble/hesitation problem in this area on my Escort by going to E3 plugs which throw the spark to the center more, which is effectively advance. The 3.0 in Voyager has not really suffered from it much due to being only lightly modded and running 15* base advance.

(Though I'm kinda wondering about the "light" modding part lately, since 2.5" exhaust is supposed to be a good upgrade and it has 52mm TB stock for '88, it was kind of night and day from when it had 2.25" exhaust parts on it... and timings I've done by hand + online calcs estimate crank HP @ 160-170... which I took for crappy calcs, or error in timings...could be not as "light" as I thought... in which case there's not a lot left on the table for easy stuff if the exhaust does most of it.)

---------- Post added at 08:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 AM ----------

Edit: though thinking about it, there's always that "Falls on it's face moment" if you accelerate up to 55ish in 2nd (about the same as 3rd on a stick) and let it shift up, instead of staying on it until about 60-65... coz that dumps it in the mid 2000s instead of towards the upper end where it's stronger near torque peak.... but that's with the kinda long gearing in an A670, where 3 is kinda between 4 and 5 on the stick.

Ondonti
04-24-2012, 07:40 PM
Wonder what Timing error % was there? I did notice that my error % is always bette when doing a pull vs cruising.

RW, This is just one ecu, others do not have the problem.
Timing like that sure kills MPG though :(
Our distributors do have something funny that causes a misfire as you pass 3k at ~ 30% throttle. Mwinkle said its only with ones that are wearing out something in the optical blah blah.

RoadWarrior222
04-24-2012, 08:28 PM
Oh right.. that... yeah I had a slight misfire a couple of years back, and I had 2 spare dizzys sitting around so after a mix and match of internals, including optic sensor and wheel it was okay again... mine was prolly original, 20 years old with near 200k on it.

Ondonti
04-24-2012, 09:53 PM
But of course Ed is not using a distributor.

I don't really know how stable MS2 is to assume its always gonna be...happy. Both firmware and hardware.

87turbodance
04-24-2012, 11:07 PM
Have you posted a log and MSQ at www.msextra.com? Or perhaps emailed Matt Cramer at DIYAutotune to pick his brain? That would be my suggestion. I took a quick look but I don't have a lot of time on my hands these days, unfortunately.

This probably isn't in your budget but MS3 kicks MS2's --- and has much more processing power. The developers are all spending their time on MS3 these days.

That being said, I'm sure your problem has an explanation and a solution I just don't know what it is... I always has issues when I tried to use MapDot instead of TPSDot so I gave up.

Sundance 6g72
04-25-2012, 12:15 AM
i want to say i had my miss issue on tpsdot too (i have sense switched to mapdot due to tps being dumb on me). 2200rpm to like 3000rpm or something dumb. Maybe its just my dizzy getting old as stated above ^

i thought ed was just using a dizzy right now with a crank sensor (havnt switched to coil packs yet?)

c2xejk
04-25-2012, 07:57 AM
I am running a 36-1 wheel for crank position and the distributor for spark (haven't switched to coil packs.) I haven't had much time yet, but I do plan on posting my issue to msextra.com... See if I can get something done today. (looking at the log, I just found an event where MAPdot and TPSdot are both near zero...)

87turbodance
04-25-2012, 10:34 AM
looking at the log, I just found an event where MAPdot and TPSdot are both near zero...

Looking at the screen cap above from the log it appears that you are somehow triggering TPS based accel shot even though TPSDot remains 0. You've also got a dip in your map reading causing a negative MAPDot. I don't think a negative MAPDot will pull fuel like a negative TPSDot will when using TPSDot. The drop in Map reading seems to be caused my the PW spike. APR goes rich that also confirms that the PW spike is actually occurring.

Or....I'm writing out my thinking...

So... why is there a TPS based accel shot (tpsacc).

or maybe the TPSacc is used to display an accel shot whether is is Map or TPS based? I can't find any references to MapAcc so I believe that to be the case.

So... to me it looks like you're driving along and then I see dip in your map reading with an accompanying lean spike in the AFR. Then the map settles down and jumps back up to the value it was at, which triggers the MapDot based accel shot which is displayed as TPSAcc. You AFR goes rich because of the accel shot and you feel a hickup while driving.

This is what see when looking at the log. Why the you have a dip in the map reading I don't know but it looks like the negative map spike is the cause.

Misfire maybe? Maybe disable accel shots and try to log the problem again - a misfire should show up in the AFR log.

c2xejk
04-25-2012, 12:56 PM
I just posted it to msextra.com. See if they can come up with any solutions.

Interesting theory. I am starting to experiment with dampening the MAP signal.

Do you know anything about the EAE algorithm (uses wall-wetting algorithm for enrichment instead of MAPdot) I have seen some recommendations to use it when having problems with MAPdot...

87turbodance
04-25-2012, 01:22 PM
I see that Mat Cramer responded saying that it's your accel shots. Hopefully someone can explain in more detail - like why are you getting accel shots with steady cruising?

From what I've read, EAE seems to be the answer but I've never had a chance to mess with it as MS1 doesn't support it. I'll get MS2 or MS3 someday.. I keep saying that every year.

Sundance 6g72
04-25-2012, 01:54 PM
what exactly is EAE (im away from my laptop and desktop to actually look at it)

87turbodance
04-25-2012, 03:09 PM
what exactly is EAE (im away from my laptop and desktop to actually look at it)

Enhanced Acceleration Enrichment. A more complex way of calculating the Accel Enrichment.

"Enhanced Acceleration Enrichment is a wall-wetting algorithm which tries to account for the fact that a significant portion of the fuel squirted into an engine gets stuck on the intake ports or manifold. Additionally, it also tries to account for the amount of fuel getting pulled off the walls of the intake ports or manifold. "

c2xejk
04-25-2012, 06:10 PM
I see that Mat Cramer responded saying that it's your accel shots. Hopefully someone can explain in more detail - like why are you getting accel shots with steady cruising?

I saw that response, but I am not sure I believe it. The pulses seem too long to not see a MAPdot... I can also find some that are too short to be due to AE...

87turbodance
04-25-2012, 07:14 PM
I'm going to look through the log you posted on www.msextra.com when I get a chance.

c2xejk
04-26-2012, 12:11 PM
I am toying with running the alpha 3.3.0b MS firmware. Looks like they put MAP averaging (from the MS3 code) into it. That may help with some of the MAP noise I think I have right now... Given that the spikes are (guessing) so quick that the often don't show up in the log file, I would think that some averaging of the MAP signal would clean it up...

87turbodance
04-26-2012, 01:37 PM
I am toying with running the alpha 3.3.0b MS firmware. Looks like they put MAP averaging (from the MS3 code) into it. That may help with some of the MAP noise I think I have right now... Given that the spikes are (guessing) so quick that the often don't show up in the log file, I would think that some averaging of the MAP signal would clean it up...

That looks like it would be worth trying for sure. Just remember to use the default file that comes with the firmware and manually copy your settings into it. Loading an MSQ created for a different firmware can and will cause all sorts of issues. Another thing I thought about was a small restrictor in your map line to dampen the signal a bit.

Also, maybe an inline car stereo noise filter on the 12v feed to MS might help ensure there is no noise.

RoadWarrior222
04-26-2012, 01:57 PM
I am toying with running the alpha 3.3.0b MS firmware. Looks like they put MAP averaging (from the MS3 code) into it. That may help with some of the MAP noise I think I have right now... Given that the spikes are (guessing) so quick that the often don't show up in the log file, I would think that some averaging of the MAP signal would clean it up...Could strap the MAP with a small value capacitor as used for spike suppression in 74 series logic circuits, like 0.1 microfarad... in your current setup, see if it helps.

87turbodance
04-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Could strap the MAP with a small value capacitor as used for spike suppression in 74 series logic circuits, like 0.1 microfarad... in your current setup, see if it helps.

Megasquirt already has small filter caps on the board already. The software filter (map averaging) sounds like a good solution if it is map noise.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/v3pcb_2.gif

c2xejk
04-26-2012, 07:37 PM
Another thing I thought about was a small restrictor in your map line to dampen the signal a bit.

I currently have a 0.035" restrictor. I have been thinking about trying something smaller...

c2xejk
04-26-2012, 08:55 PM
Before I change much, I thought I might try changing some of the filtering calibrations.
Any thoughts on the lag filter number? MAP sample window? MAP sample angle? Number of sample events? (Currently 50, 10, 40, 1)

I need to read through more of this thread, but it does sound like my problem.
http://msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=42233&p=312130&hilit=map+lag+filter#p312130

Ondonti
04-26-2012, 10:02 PM
I had problems balancing Racing with letting off gearshifts and getting full fuel when boost came up. Increased Accell enrichment with TPS and then it killed low throttle accell (rich misfires).

87turbodance
04-27-2012, 01:47 PM
Before I change much, I thought I might try changing some of the filtering calibrations.
Any thoughts on the lag filter number? MAP sample window? MAP sample angle? Number of sample events? (Currently 50, 10, 40, 1)

I need to read through more of this thread, but it does sound like my problem.
http://msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=42233&p=312130&hilit=map+lag+filter#p312130

I saw that thread but I haven't had a chance to read though it yet.

I also haven't had a chance to educate myself on the different values that can be adjusted with the filters so I have no clue about them right now.

c2xejk
04-28-2012, 08:37 PM
I adjusted the cals for the MAP filtering and the MAPdot seems to be more stable. While it is a little early to declare the problem fixed, during some limited driving the problem didn't occur.

Sundance 6g72
04-29-2012, 11:22 PM
yeah ill wait until you drive it a bit more before i agree that its fixed. sometimes i would do a fix that would seem to help and then 2 days later its not helping (adding fuel, pulling/adding timing, etc)

your fix sounds promising and more on top of whats going on than what i was doing.

c2xejk
05-04-2012, 12:09 PM
After 5 days of driving the car, I think I can safely say the problem is fixed.

Next up, installing the air bags in the rear springs.

87turbodance
05-04-2012, 02:07 PM
That's great to hear! Could you go into a little detail about you changed?

c2xejk
05-04-2012, 03:47 PM
I set number of sample events to 4 and set the MAP lag filter to 40.

I may yet try one of the new firmware versions that has the MAP averaging algorithm. Not sure if I will do it while it is still in alpha or wait till it is beta or released...

Sundance 6g72
05-05-2012, 12:46 AM
COOL! ill try doing that as well. It makes sense i had a very similar problem because i started my tune from your tune!

has me excited.. the stupid miss fire feeling thing at 2200-3000rpms was my only hickup with my tune... and i would never get the tune perfect because id always be changing things to try and fix that dumb problem.

c2xejk
05-05-2012, 06:02 PM
Today I finished up the install of the air bags. With 25psi in them the rear is noticeably firmer on launch (less squat).
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3581/1004445k.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2480/1004443nd.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2734/1004444kl.jpg

Sundance 6g72
05-05-2012, 11:53 PM
does it feel good when cornering? Just curious

those springs look like they are deff stiffer than mine. yours felt stiffer if i remember right.

c2xejk
05-07-2012, 12:41 PM
does it feel good when cornering? Just curious

those springs look like they are deff stiffer than mine. yours felt stiffer if i remember right.

Hopefully the springs are stiffer. I installed them new just before Drag Week. Also, they are for a LeBaron.

I haven't tried much cornering yet. The stiffer spring rate should keep the rear flatter in corners...

Ondonti
05-07-2012, 03:06 PM
They did help my Spirit. I think the air bags work great air shocks (what I have in the Duster) IMO do not work.

MC#4
05-07-2012, 05:23 PM
They did help my Spirit. I think the air bags work great air shocks (what I have in the Duster) IMO do not work.

Air shocks made a night/day difference on my car.

3950839509

Ondonti
05-08-2012, 05:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXF2cGyfKAw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7-5IfDfLno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chvr100AoI0

Now, the last video is a much slower run but a better 60' There is less drop in the back but the clutch is slipping on the launch.


My experience was that air shocks lifted the rear of my car off the springs (so that there is little to no tension on them). I have S/T springs so they want to help things out and the shocks won't let them. Air bags did not lift up my Spirit as much and there was no drop because they won't compress.
Air shocks at 100psi or whatever (more = higher rear end) still compress when you launch hard. I tried all sorts of limiting strap ideas to keep the rear from raising up but somehow I always broke one coming off a curb at the track or something or other. I wanted the limiting straps to see if I could salvage the air shocks and pretend they were helping me :( Still not sure about them.

I got 2.2 60's on an AA body with Kumho HP4's (boring all season) & Air bags so I must say they work great. I actually would set one side harder back then because I felt one tire was spinning more then the other.

Sundance 6g72
05-08-2012, 10:32 PM
with all that effort, coil overs or ed's idea seems to surfice and help handing.

c2xejk
05-09-2012, 10:55 AM
The engine is making a noise that sounds a lot like a spun bearing to me... The car is now in the barn waiting to have the engine swapped. I could spend some time confirming the diagnosis, but I have the replacement engine ready to go, so why bother... I now have my motivation to get off my butt and swap the engine.

Sundance 6g72
05-09-2012, 11:22 AM
250000 + miles. its about time. especially for a RACE ENGINE!!


get to it!

Ondonti
05-09-2012, 07:42 PM
with all that effort, coil overs or ed's idea seems to surfice and help handing.
Idea? I ran those 8 years ago in my AA body and I copied someone else :P
What I am saying is that they seem to work great for OEM rear suspension and that the hydraulic shocks are garbage. Air bags let you run a nice rear shock AND be able to firm things up.
Rear end does get squirly with either style pumped up.

Sundance 6g72
05-14-2012, 11:06 PM
ed, can you send me your tune so i can copy over the settings you changes?

c2xejk
05-15-2012, 11:34 AM
ed, can you send me your tune so i can copy over the settings you changes?

Long story, but right now I do not have access to that laptop...

Sundance 6g72
05-15-2012, 10:14 PM
crap

are you able to tell me what settings you changed? i think im turning accel enrichment ON but i dont wanna mess with it before knowing for sure

c2xejk
05-16-2012, 06:20 PM
I set number of sample events to 4 and set the MAP lag filter to 40.


crap

are you able to tell me what settings you changed? i think im turning accel enrichment ON but i dont wanna mess with it before knowing for sure

Go to Basic setup>General, lags then make the changes noted above.


In other news, Drag Week is looking more likely... http://blogs.hotrod.com/drag-week-new-registrations-and-scheduling-25201.html Wish I knew where I was on the waiting list.

Sundance 6g72
05-16-2012, 11:03 PM
thats the only thing you changed? left accel enrich to basic?

Ondonti
05-17-2012, 06:13 AM
I might look into that as well. What Sensor are you using Ed? Not fun to mess with accel tuning when there is another problem that causes hiccups.

c2xejk
05-17-2012, 06:31 AM
thats the only thing you changed? left accel enrich to basic?

Yup... With the extra reads, the MAPdot signal seem to settle down enough to turn down the AE threshold and have it kick in earlier. There was some AE changes, but I would expect that to vary from engine to engine...


I might look into that as well. What Sensor are you using Ed? Not fun to mess with accel tuning when there is another problem that causes hiccups.

What ever the stock MAP sensor is for the MS2...

Sundance 6g72
05-17-2012, 10:21 AM
i never had a problem tuning AE so i should be fine


I might look into that as well. What Sensor are you using Ed? Not fun to mess with accel tuning when there is another problem that causes hiccups.

you scared me with the AE before i had my megasquirt.. its much easier than i thought it would be.

Ondonti
05-17-2012, 04:00 PM
Well the OEM computer didn't like that cam either and I had what, 4 n/a load points for something that wants to make no power off idle :P

I redid my load points after I realized that VE changes very little as boost increases/decreases.

Sundance 6g72
05-17-2012, 04:36 PM
how much did VE values vary from say 160-170kpa? i gave my self a good amount of boost areas but im also running less boost.

i guess that does make sense with the cam and no load points under 100kpa! with stock cams and a good amount of NA load points, its hard to get accel enrich to effect driveablity.

c2xejk
05-20-2012, 09:54 PM
Over the weekend I pulled the transmission. It has been mostly degreased, a drain plug has been drilled and tapped and the OBX LSD has been installed.

I still need to fix the lever for the crossover cable. There is a fair amount of play in the stock roll pin. So the plan right now is to remove the stock pin (M4?), drill out the hole and put a 3/16" pin in it's place. That should fix the side-to-side play in the shifter that has been annoying me.

Once the transmission is done, I will get started with the engine.

Ondonti
05-21-2012, 03:39 AM
how much did VE values vary from say 160-170kpa? i gave my self a good amount of boost areas but im also running less boost.

i guess that does make sense with the cam and no load points under 100kpa! with stock cams and a good amount of NA load points, its hard to get accel enrich to effect driveablity.

Its going to change almost nothing. That change is also going to be very consistent as boost increases, restrictions are going to increase. A few VE points is all you really need even if running 30psi. For 8psi its cake! I changed mine to 10 n/a load points and 6 boosted points. The only think you are doing is correcting for restriction changes. The fueling formula takes care of the rest.

Ed, once I removed the cotter pin someone stuck into one of my transmissions and then put in a china screw driver from the little blue/clear plastic box sets. It was the perfect size (can't remember if I drilled out the hole though). Cut off all the extra length and hammered it in.

Sundance 6g72
05-21-2012, 08:52 AM
thanks for the info. i never knew that and would always feel that the tune was going to be junk because the values where so close and i would richen it up!

RoadWarrior222
05-21-2012, 09:29 AM
I'd have been thinking ford brake caliper pin before chinese screwdriver, but then I have a bunch around... bought a hardware kit, pads and calipers when I did my brakes and got new pins in all three.

c2xejk
06-07-2012, 08:39 AM
The Shadow is going back together slowly. I found that the rear manifold was cracked (it was suspected during Drag Week.) It was cracked in several places on the top and bottom. I spent some time and ported the replacement.

Right now I am debating which turbo. I am pretty much planning on a GT3582. The key question is one with a T3 or T4 flange...

Sundance 6g72
06-07-2012, 11:05 AM
whats the difference between the two flanges? would one be a t3 housing and the other a t4?

c2xejk
06-07-2012, 11:49 AM
The turbos appear to be identical other than one has a T3 flange and the other has a T4 flange... There are some variations that have a different output flange, but they are all 3" out (V-band or 4-bolt.) T3 theoretically gives me the possibility to step to a smaller turbo if the GT3582 turns out to be too big. The T4 makes it easier to fabricate the header (larger port to merge things into...)

Two examples are:

http://www.speedyracer.com/GT35-TURBO-GT3582-Turbo-Charger%28500hp%29
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT35-T4-Turbo-Charger-Anti-Surge-500-HP-Oil-Fitting-/160605526574?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2564d5da2e&vxp=mtr

Ondonti
06-07-2012, 03:08 PM
t4 flange for a turbine wheel that large should work better in all ways with the same a/r.

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2012, 03:20 PM
T4 flange is a bigger a/r compared to the same T3 flange, so a .82 T4 is bigger than a .82 in a T3 housing, so keep that in mind.

c2xejk
06-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Over the weekend, I thought I might get the car back together. After I sealed the coolant system I started filling it with water. I heard it dripping a found that it was from the front of the motor...

Tour down to the timing belt and found that the brand new water pump was dripping... Closer inspection and I realized it was leaking from a crack in the PUMP!!! I was PO'd... I put the pump from the prior motor on (it has only about 30K miles on it and I was only replacing it to be "safe"...

Right now I am out of town at a conference so it will be this weekend before I get back to working on the car again. With a little luck, I should get it back together this weekend...

I have ordered pipe for the turbo header. I haven't made a final decision on T3 vs T4 flange, but I am leaning toward T4.


I am starting to hear stories on bangshift of people that will not be able to make DragWeek and are dropping out. So that increases the likelihood that I will be able to get in...

Vigo
06-12-2012, 10:27 PM
Here's hoping you get in!

Sundance 6g72
06-13-2012, 12:07 AM
woooo :hail:

Ondonti
06-13-2012, 04:51 AM
Rooting for more dropouts is supposed to feel wrong right?

My waterpump instructions stated that a new seal that is not lapped in can leak. That freaked me out when I put my new one in.

Vigo
06-14-2012, 07:21 PM
WTF does that even mean? Only thing ive ever lapped was some valves and i feel old just saying that word.

c2xejk
06-14-2012, 07:49 PM
I was wondering that myself. Both parts should be machined flat...

I have been wondering if the water pump was cracked when I got it, or if it cracked when I bolted on the engine...

RoadWarrior222
06-14-2012, 08:51 PM
IIRC you're meant to do 'em in a 2 stage criss cross pattern... coz torquing everything right down in a sequential ring around it tends to do crap like that.

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

Though I'll give you evens that if it's a chinese casting it's got a line of bubbles in it where it cracked...

Ondonti
06-14-2012, 09:59 PM
WTF does that even mean? Only thing ive ever lapped was some valves and i feel old just saying that word.
Referring to the seal & shaft. Warning in my water pump package saying the weep hole might drip until the seal laps in. Mine did not leak.

Sundance 6g72
06-15-2012, 03:28 PM
maybe thats what all my new pumps where doing?????? cuz i went through like 3 of them that leaked out the weep hole right away. my newest pump (with brand new housing!) did not leak. same brand more than likely..

Ondonti
06-17-2012, 04:07 AM
maybe thats what all my new pumps where doing?????? cuz i went through like 3 of them that leaked out the weep hole right away. my newest pump (with brand new housing!) did not leak. same brand more than likely..
Yeah, maybe that is why women say to read the instructions.

Vigo
06-17-2012, 11:08 AM
the weep hole might drip until the seal laps in.

I dont think that line would fly if i bought a pump for my 2.7 where it leaks into the crankcase.. do they just make some better than others, or pre-lap them? :p Life's mysteries/excuses...

Sundance 6g72
06-17-2012, 01:58 PM
leaks into the crankcase. that sounds like a great idea. only in a dodge

c2xejk
06-18-2012, 06:52 AM
Finished off a few details on the car last night. Setup TunerStudio on my new laptop pulled the Shadow's tune in. Cranked with the injectors disconnected (to prime the oil pump) then plugged in the injectors and the car fired up right away. Ran it and tweaked the cals some as the engine warmed up and broke in. Once up to temperature, the engine started running smoother (I assume the break-in has started....)

Tonight I hope to get the tires back on and take the car for a spin.