My v6 Drag Week build

[Ondonti]

Need to put major combustion pressure on the rings to properly seat them. If they don't have enough force to tear down the honing marks, it won't go well. wot pulls and decel are king in breakins.

[RoadWarrior222]

yah find a nice hill, rip up one side, engine brake down the other.

[c2xejk]

Took the car for a test drive/thrashing. Found a variety of issues that I will need to figure out/fix. One of which is that it started getting hot (220F) pretty quick. I know it was 90+F out and I was thrashing on it, but it got hot quick and it wasn't 103F like I saw at Drag Week last year...

Picked up a fresh thermostat (180F) and clipped the jiggle valve off of it. When I pulled the old one out, found that it was also a 180F thermostat... I am looking at a couple other things.

1) Going back to a puller radiator fan setup. (probably need a pair of small low-profile fans to clear the header.)
2) Sealing the area around the radiator fan better.
3) For summer/racing I may consider just using a restrictor.
4) Fresh radiator or flushing the system.

Not sure if I am just not used to driving the car with a manual steering or if the steering is heavier with the addition of the LSD. Pulling out of my drive way it nearly got away from me! This has me considering putting the PS unit back in...

The 53" belt stretched enough on me that it is loose on the car and was causing the alternator to squeal. Switched to a 52" belt with front bolt of the alternator going through the bracket hole.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yah, it will run hotter than you were used to while running in, more friction.

[c2xejk]

Cooling was a bit of an issue last year... Trying to make sure it isn't an issue again this year....

[turbovanman²]

Never heard about lapping in a water pump, damn chinese, :banghead:

What turbo did you end up going with?

[RoadWarrior222]

Well it's like a cam seal, sometimes it weeps a little until it beds in.

[Ondonti]

Are you having temp problems when cruising over 30mph or just idling/stop and go? If you are always over 30mph you should not have cooling issues. Those fixes above also won't address your problem. Those fixes above will help with low speed driving. The restrictor seems a bit excessive at this point. Bandaid. Do something like that when everything is top notch. No reason to run hot. I only got halfway on temp when towing another car. Your car should run cooler then your van ever did since it has less weight to pull around and you towed with that van.

[RoadWarrior222]

Is it pressure tested with a cap known to hold it's stock pressure?

[c2xejk]

It has been a while since I updated my status. The new engine had a problem with a spun bearing. At the same time I an opportunity crossed my that I couldn't pass up. So gone is the 12v 3.0 and the engine bay now looks like this.
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2010/1004452w.jpg

Yup, that's a 6g74 (3.5L V6) with a T3 turbo header. I still have a LOT of work ahead of me, but this is the new direction. More details to come...

[Force Fed Mopar]

Nice...

[RoadWarrior222]

Yup, that's a 6g74 (3.5L V6) with a T3 turbo header. I still have a LOT of work ahead of me, but this is the new direction. More details to come...

Muhuhahahahaaaa...*cough* I mean, nice, very nice.

[RoadWarrior222]

I'm thinking you're gonna want a BSX front end for all the tire you're gonna need though :D

[Shadow24]

probably on OBX or other LSD will be in order as well. Sure your going to have hood clearance with the 3.5?

[RoadWarrior222]

Looks like more room than with a 3.0 and stock plenum to me...

[c2xejk]

probably on OBX or other LSD will be in order as well. Sure your going to have hood clearance with the 3.5?

I have an OBX in the 543 trans that is in the car... Looks like it would clear the stock hood. If it doesn't, it should clear the hood scooped hood that is on the car right now...


Looks like more room than with a 3.0 and stock plenum to me...

I think there may well be more room. Certainly more room than with the 4" plenums I had on the prior engine... Bigger problem is creating a little more room between the engine and the radiator. Right now there is not enough room for a hose to make a bend out of the radiator.

[Shadow24]

How do you have the setup for the radiator hoses? I was able to use stock hoses when I put my 3.0 in...(maybe it was 2 bottom hoses, can't remember anymore lol)

the OBX will def be worth it with the power of the 3.5. It sure helps with the 24v 3.0.

The bump hood will probably be the best, Although my 3.0 cleared a base non-cutout hood on Lucy 1.0.

[c2xejk]

How do you have the setup for the radiator hoses? I was able to use stock hoses when I put my 3.0 in...(maybe it was 2 bottom hoses, can't remember anymore lol)

With the coolant in and out on the driver's side of the motor, stock 12v hoses won't work. I believe the hoses I have right now are from a '97 Diamante (it was in the big box of parts that was included with the engine.) I think the lower hose would have worked too, but the header requires the outlet to be rotated from the stock position. I will see if I can get some pictures...


the OBX will def be worth it with the power of the 3.5. It sure helps with the 24v 3.0.

Peak normally-aspirated hp may only be marginally more than I had before and before I was having BIG traction issues... I am still debating which turbo, but I am intending to go fairly large, so the turbo doesn't really kick in until I am down the track a little and have more traction...


The bump hood will probably be the best, Although my 3.0 cleared a base non-cutout hood on Lucy 1.0.

I have thoughts of stuffing the air intake filter up in the scoop.

[Shadow24]

well, for perspective, I'd estimate I am at about 200whp (189hp/201tq from my initial dyno a couple years ago, with a CRAP tune) out of my 3.0 and the 3.5 was rated at 205hp and 230tq. You would probably be around 200+ whp but would have me in the tq department by 30-40...

what do you think you were making with the 12v and what sort of traction issues did you have?

[c2xejk]

It dyno'd at 175whp. When I launched at the track at anything over 1100 RPM I had nothing but wheel spin with street tires and an open differential... On the street from a 5-10MPH roll, I could mash the throttle in first and light up a tire...

I now have an OBX and slicks. Have to see how the slicks do with the 3.5. I bought shorter ones intending to use them with a normally-aspirated 3.0L. With the turbo'd 3.5, taller ones might be better... We will see...

I have wondered what Mitsu changed between the various versions of the 6g74. Some make a lot more power... I have wondered if it was hard parts or tune...

[Shadow24]

MIVEC is usually the leading indicator (260hp vs 205 i believe). Tune probably could account for 10-20 hp possibly...

175 out of a 12v is pretty good! regarding slicks, I was under-powered for the 25.5"x8.5" slicks I bought. Once warmed up and sticky, a 6000rpm clutch drop slipped the clutch some and bogged a bit. They will probably be just right for the supercharged setup though. What size did you get? Also, the OBX makes a world of difference when it comes to launch and jump on-throttle traction. I can usually light up 1st but i have to TRY to do it.

BTW, check the other site's thread for more questions/info :)

[Vigo]

Hmm. That motor come out of a daytona? Be nice to see the 3.5 in a finished, documented swap.

AFAIK most of the 3.5s were rated about the same. Even the non mivec 3.8s had only a bit more hp. Nothing was rated above 230hp without mivec, iirc. However, based on the port dimensions and how they act bone stock (my dad's had a diamante for 130k and ive driven the piss out of it) i think a 3.5 could break 230hp with nothing other than a custom upper intake and larger throttle body.

Glad to see you going this way. :)

[c2xejk]

Here is a shot of the passenger side mount.
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9021/1004455e.jpg

And here is the turbo header.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9496/1004459.jpg

[RoadWarrior222]

Angles look a bit tight on the header, but whatever fits and works pwns theoretically bestest.


Got some shots of the the radiator problem? I'm thinking plumbing aisle, home depot, if it's off an ABS end tank, then can even just cut it down and cement a 90 on it, theoretically would hold 100psi if you get good contact area.... whereas you need it to hold 15ish, and if it spikes more than 20 you've got issues.

---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------

BTW are you gonna heatshield the trans? Whatever lube in there might be turning to tarry sludge on the topside with the header right close.

[Shadow24]

BTW, i think the PO put the thermostat housing on wrong. my outlets are both pointing forward, not one forward and one up. Hopefully that makes your hose routing issues easier :)

[c2xejk]

Angles look a bit tight on the header, but whatever fits and works pwns theoretically bestest.

That is an area that might change... I am strongly considering adding a bend up so the turbo sits higher.


Got some shots of the the radiator problem? I'm thinking plumbing aisle, home depot, if it's off an ABS end tank, then can even just cut it down and cement a 90 on it, theoretically would hold 100psi if you get good contact area.... whereas you need it to hold 15ish, and if it spikes more than 20 you've got issues.

I will get back to you on this. I have some pics at home that I need to upload...


---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------

BTW are you gonna heatshield the trans? Whatever lube in there might be turning to tarry sludge on the topside with the header right close.

I plan on running a blanket on the turbo and heat shielding on a lot of the surrounding component...


BTW, i think the PO put the thermostat housing on wrong. my outlets are both pointing forward, not one forward and one up. Hopefully that makes your hose routing issues easier :)

Actually, I rotated it that way. If I rotate it forward, it hits the turbo flange... That is part of why I am thinking of adjusting that part of the header so I can run the pipe in the stock position and likely run a "stock" hose (heatshielded!).

[Sundance 6g72]

:O

i did not see this coming

[MC#4]

:O

i did not see this coming

+1

Pretty cool stuff though. Will be watching it unfold.

[RoadWarrior222]

or completely unravel as the case may be :evil: :p :D

[Irocelectric93]

Hmm. In a way i find this bitter sweet.

[c2xejk]

Hmm. In a way i find this bitter sweet.

Me too, I had to mourn going away from the 12v 3L....

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, now we're gonna chuck you out into the "other vehicles" section :D

[c2xejk]

Can anybody point me to information on hooking braided AN hose to our stock fuel line?

[Shadow24]

Something like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251057386643?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Sundance 6g72]

i think the best way is to weld an AN fitting to the rail directly.

[c2xejk]

The rail end is covered, it already has AN fittings. I am looking for the best way to hook up to the stock lines.

[wallace]

You can flare the stock tube to 37* and use a tube nut and sleeve on it if it's a standard size. If its not a standard size you could buy a plug and have it bored on a lathe to the od of the line and weld it on. I've done it both ways.

[Irocelectric93]

I know the LS guys have a fitting that works. Its sort of like a quick disconnect for the fuel filters. Summit carries them but you'd have to check the fuel rail size that they work with. I'm sure they are out there somewhere in our size. If you come up with something let us know because ill need this info as well when i put my rail back in the car (welded with AN fittings)

[87turbodance]

I'm interested in see the results of this. I must say, Ed, I didn't see you going this route.

Ar you going to use the stock three vane crankshaft sensor in the 3.5 with MS? The stock crank and cam sensors would be capable of wasted spark with MS3 and sequential fuel and spark with MS3. You'd need to add a second input to the MS for the cam sensor though.

If you don't like the idea of purchasing an MS3 card, an MS3X add-on card can e used with your existing MS2 card as an elegant way of adding additional inputs and outputs without serious soldering.

http://msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=39273&sid=b0649cda602c9a9fccc2c32ebb00c82a&start=20

[Ondonti]

So that motor comes out after sitting 7 years? Always wanted to see the distributor setup it had.

Won't help with bearings or cooling issues. 74 does have MUCH larger bearings and the crankshaft oils better then the 3.8L based on how it is drilled...
Is this still a "dragweek" build?

[Sundance 6g72]

i think its a "hell bent on going fast" build

lol.. no replacement for displacement.. except for a turbo OR you just go BIG and add a TURBO. jeeeeebus

[c2xejk]

I'm interested in see the results of this. I must say, Ed, I didn't see you going this route.

Ar you going to use the stock three vane crankshaft sensor in the 3.5 with MS? The stock crank and cam sensors would be capable of wasted spark with MS3 and sequential fuel and spark with MS3. You'd need to add a second input to the MS for the cam sensor though.

While I am thinking about it, I wanted to confirm that the stock 3-blade crank sensor can be used with the MS2 I have (with the distributor.) I assume that it is an optical sensor and can be configured the same way I had the 3.0 when I was running a distributor... (I don't remember the details.)

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------


So that motor comes out after sitting 7 years? Always wanted to see the distributor setup it had.

I don't plan on running Mike's hybrid distributor. I think it was 2006 when he last worked on the motor... Kids have slowed him down on car stuff so he sold it to me so he could see it run...

My tentative plan is to run the stock distributor (spark distribution only) and the 3-vane crank sensor. Fall back would be to run a 36-1 wheel and the distributor or wasted spark.


Won't help with bearings or cooling issues. 74 does have MUCH larger bearings and the crankshaft oils better then the 3.8L based on how it is drilled...
Is this still a "dragweek" build?

Assuming I get into drag week, yes! I am still waiting to hear from them...


i think its a "hell bent on going fast" build

lol.. no replacement for displacement.. except for a turbo OR you just go BIG and add a TURBO. jeeeeebus

Yup, 3.5L 24valve SOHC + big turbo = :D

[Vigo]

Ahh, so it is that motor. This will be cool. Im interested in what you mean by hybrid distributor but i cant ask you to clutter up your thread talking about something that you're not even using lol.

[c2xejk]

Basically it is the 24v distributor modified to use the 12v sensor... Mike's original plan was to run the engine with 12valve electronics... My plan is to run it with a MS2.

[Shadow24]

Im pretty sure the 24v dizzy can work with MS. the early 3.0 24v (00-02) and all 3.5s use a 1-pulse cam reluctor. Later 3.0s used a 4 pulse reluctor.

http://www.club3g.com/forum/3g-eclipse-gt-gts-specific/70489-3-5-6g74-swap-discussion-64.html#post3042568

[c2xejk]

Right now I am more interested in if the 24v crank sensor works with MS.

[wallace]

Right now I am more interested in if the 24v crank sensor works with MS.
Is it a 2 wire sensor?

[c2xejk]

Three wire sensor.

[RoadWarrior222]

If it's larger than another sensor that will work, mold it into modelling clay, position the other sensor in the mold and pour resin round it to make a "fits like stock" copy.

[fishcleaner]

Can anybody point me to information on hooking braided AN hose to our stock fuel line?
I'm sure a -5 AN tube nut would work, but if you are building power, run a 3/8" hardline back to the tank, even if the pick-up tube is 5/16" I would think the added volume in the larger line would help.

[87turbodance]

No reason why the 24V CAS wouldn't work. The three vanes on the crank looks the same to MS as 6 vanes on the cam like the 12V. Just a matter of software changes. The crank is likely optical but could be hall-effect. Will likely need to wired the same as a hall-sensor regardless. Wasted spark would require the addition of a cam sensor input to MS which isn't terribly difficult but requires a couple components and some jumper wires in MS.

A wiring diagram from mitchel or something would give definite answers.

Likely similar or same as this (http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Mits6g72.htm)

[Sundance 6g72]

is there any info on how well these blocks behave when boosted?

i know the 3s guys swap them into their cars but considering this is sohc still, im thinking smething else might be different as well.

[Shadow24]

keep intake temps down and ensure enough fuelling. the 3.0 doesn't have the greatest quench. not sure about the 3.5. There is some good info at the following post on club3g.com http://www.club3g.com/forum/3g-eclipse-gt-gts-specific/22437-why-6g7-blows-up-2.html#post2118672

ring gaps are tight for N/A and could stand to be opened up (brent also figured this out).

[Sundance 6g72]

right. i assume meth or e85 would still be in the plans?

[Ondonti]

The rods are tiny

[RoadWarrior222]

Just thunk, better sit up an pay attention, I've got a crazy plan for a 6g72 bottom end that strokes it.... well it would be more like 3.2L than 3.5L buuut, splitting the difference between any 3.5 oddities and normal 3.0 tuning might give me a clue.

[Sundance 6g72]

http://www.club3g.com/forum/3g-eclipse-gt-gts-specific/70489-3-5-6g74-swap-discussion-46.html

dude is shooting for 300 wheel on a 3.65L sohc 24v NA

if the block holds up, a 300whp NA motor with 5psi would be a riot

"wanna race? im on 5psi" hhahahaha

[Ondonti]

http://www.club3g.com/forum/3g-eclipse-gt-gts-specific/70489-3-5-6g74-swap-discussion-46.html

dude is shooting for 300 wheel on a 3.65L sohc 24v NA

if the block holds up, a 300whp NA motor with 5psi would be a riot

"wanna race? im on 5psi" hhahahaha
You know I know BJ right (in real life)? He listened too much to the wrong person and not enough to me regarding his build. Went through wasted money on custom intake manifolds that I said would not work, back to stockish, etc.

Here he is with 3.9L built motor in 2011 running 93mph at the same track that my bolton 12 valve Spirit ran 87mph in 2005 (high altitude 4400 feet, not 5k like he says). Spirit was full weight, nothing removed. Note that he made 218hp on his most recent dyno and I made 445 on the same exact dyno 18psi, 3.0L stock block vs his 3.9L. The math would say he gains nothing over me. I actually blew 2 O rings out of my headgasket so power was off.

The guy who used to be helping him with his motor (might still be) is the sohc 24v gt35R turbo Galant that I raced a few times.
http://s397.photobucket.com/albums/pp54/speedyspeed3_2008/?action=view&current=DSC_0072.mp4

3.5L won't do magic. Its a 16% gain in displacement. Its like 2.2L to 2.5L here. There are advantages and drawbacks.

If Ed makes some of the similar decisions he has made with cams and things like that he will struggle to get where he wants to. I still don't understand some of the parts that went into the 12v setup. BJ (above) spent the last 4 years talking about getting a cams for his 24v 6g74 and instead spent 4 years trying different manifolds (intake and exhaust), building 3 different motors...more and more headwork, when for an n/a build the cams had already killed him. Not sure why he didn't just fix the cams first. Too much bad advice.
I still think back to Ed racing Mike after Mike won the dyno numbers competition. 12v van beat up 24v eclipse.

[Vigo]

Yeah, honestly one of my main reasons for being excited about a person on this forum doing that motor is that they hopefully wont have all the smoke blown up their --- from club3g etc which for all the time and thousands of people and aftermarket 'help' they've had, have never really gotten the results it takes to impress me.. I honestly think someone who understands the fundamentals and doesnt know ---- specific to that motor, will probably end up with a better build than someone who takes their advice from club3g residents..

[RoadWarrior222]

Yah, it's not a B series, or a 4G63, or a SBC... you get these people who "know motors", and they don't, they know one motor, and it doesn't work on others, so they say "You can't do anything with it" but what they mean is that the low hanging fruit that chevy or honda left for the picking isn't there on it. Sure you can read up all the tweaks for other motors, and learn, but the learning is not in knowing how to do them by rote, it's in knowing how and why they work, then you can take another motor and consider it, and know whether it's a good idea or not.

[Shadow24]

I will agree, club3g has way too many nay-sayers to foster any innovative or outside the box thinking. I was flamed pretty bad for wanting to go Roots blown vs vortech or turbo. I'm still going that route because I want to see what happens. Personally I want to stay with the 3.0 due to its base design differences than the 3.5 or 3.8. the 3.5/3.8 are less oversquare than the 3.0.

Also, the bottom end of the 24v motors is quite robust. Forged cranks stock, decent rods and all. The only real time I have seen bent rods was on a hydrolock situation.

Rezlo did some good work back in the day and it still stands as good info, however there are always the outlying one-offs. One instance was a well tuned Ripp or Turbo 3.0 that was daily driven with 15psi on a bone stock motor. It stayed alive because the tune was much better than most of the wannabe's over there could manage or pay for.

I believe that with good basic engine building, the 3.5 with a turbo would be pretty nasty. While stock it doesn't make too much more HP than the 3.0, its the torque aspect that is quite different. the extra .5L displacement with a turbo would make a pretty good tire-roasting machine :)

[RoadWarrior222]

"Just" making it a tire roaster would be what would concerns me... I'd want the damn thing to move :D I guess that's why I started in on my suspension and tranny the other year, being aware that I could break the tires loose almost at will already at legal speeds, on 205 tires... I did an ill fated cheapass LSD experiment with the ford tracloc spring and assploded it...and wasn't impressively effective while working, helped in the wet a touch. Well the situation improved quite a bit with 215s on it on pumpers, but it hasn't been really hammered since, it's had maintainance issues. I've gotta get suited up and get going on it again now, now the pollen is cleared out and I can breathe, but current heat/humidity is holding that up.

[Shadow24]

Yeah, traction and a good LSD are probably musts on a build like that. I know the LSD sure helped my traction all around. I had to try to lite up the tires on the street due to equalized traction.

If Ed sets up the build so that the boost doesn't hit right away, i think it could be a well balanced build. the 3.5 has enough torque to get going fairly well without help, then the boost would come in for the extra kick.

As much as the OBX gets knocked on, it takes a fair bit of abuse and definitely helps being a Torque-biasing LSD.

EDIT: i hear you on the heat too, going to be another high 90's day in the Boston area...too d**n hot to work on the car

[Vigo]

Hahaha. Good thing i just quit my tech job working on cars in 95* weather every single day. We're having a mild summer down here...

[RoadWarrior222]

95 and dry, I can cope, mid one teens heat index with the humidity, not so much... Get sweat blind real quick, especially when it drips on my glasses.... would feel like a real pansy though if I had to have a roof to work under, instead of lying out in the sun on black asphalt. ;-P

(Actually though, my driveway gets too soft, even with a square foot plate under them my jacks and stands will sink and tip)

[c2xejk]

The turbo arrived yesterday. I set it in the engine bay to get a general idea of how it is going to fit... Battery tray is definitely going to have to go...

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3733/1004468j.jpg

[RoadWarrior222]

Looks like it, plus probably the cruise control servo if you still have one living under there.

[c2xejk]

I ditched the cruise control a long time ago..

[Vigo]

Details on the turbo? Or did i miss them somewhere..

[c2xejk]

T61 with a P-trim turbine.

[Vigo]

Egggcellent.. what turbine housing a/r?

[c2xejk]

I think it is a .68 (I don't have the info in front of me...)

I was trying to figure out the fit last night and realizing just how big this turbo is... It is going to be a tight fit between the coolant lines and the clutch cable and the brake MC...

[Vigo]

p-trim / .68 sounds good. It is not 'big' for a 3.5 but definitely will take you as far as you want to go and will have a broad powerband. :)

[c2xejk]

A couple pictures of my initial turbo positioning.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1760/1004474l.jpg

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4066/1004473g.jpg

[RoadWarrior222]

The hoses that go on those coolant fittings are gonna melt.

[c2xejk]

The hoses that go on those coolant fittings are gonna melt.

Having some aluminum tubing welded onto them to extend them away from the flange is on my to do list...

[Vigo]

Nice, looks a lot more workable this way. Keep the pics coming!

[c2xejk]

I am hoping to start fabrication of the down pipe tonight. I also need to spec out parts for the turbo oil supply and return.

Anybody use Eastwood Hi-Temp Internal Exhaust Coating? I am toying with using it on some of the parts to minimize underhood temps.

[RoadWarrior222]

Having some aluminum tubing welded onto them to extend them away from the flange is on my to do list...Good plan.

[c2xejk]

A couple shots of recent progress.


Wastegate is in place. The output is routed under the transmission and dumps just before the crossmember.
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2173/1004478f.jpg

The downpipe and connection to the exhaust.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2430/1004475.jpg

Ed

[Sundance 6g72]

nice work

im assuming you are running a different exhaust than before? I think you should just run a cutout as soon as you can but thats just me.

[c2xejk]

For the moment it is the same 3" exhaust as before. If the turbo doesn't spool well, I might look at making some changes (ie. side exit before the rear tires...)

[Vigo]

I have a 3" side exit on one of my cars and i really like it.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Side exit is annoying as hell, but if it's a race car...

[Sundance 6g72]

well that is what the cutout is for.

use a megasquirt output to trigger a relay that triggers a door lock to open the cutout when you go over 70% throttle? Hell yes!

I know turboshad is running some door locks to open and close his cutout. Much faster than a real E-cutout.

The previous Motor in this car required next to no throttle opening to get it to get up to cruising speed.. i would emagine having the cutout open at 70-80% throttle would be daily drivable 100%

[shayne]

close friend at work runs a sentra with a sr20det swap. motor is stock, but his exhaust is a side exit, catless, and uses a magnaflow 6x36 round muffler, and is pretty quiet and doesnt drone too much at all. he got the idea from one of the sentra forums.

[Vigo]

I never had any problem with side-exit exhausts (ive run 2 of different diameters) except for the very short time i ran it with an auto trans. When i did the 5spd swap the rpm drop took the exhaust from too loud to fairly quiet and not annoying at all at cruise. They are definitely loud at WOT.

I agree with sticking the longest straight-through muffler you can get on there, though. My first 2.25" side exit had a ~20" glasspack in it. My 2nd, 3" side exit has two ~20" mufflers stuck in there, one stainless mesh magnaflow round and one cheapy glasspack. If i built another one id try to get a 36"+ single magnaflow for it. A 48" might even fit.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02146Large.jpg

[c2xejk]

Good News! I am officially in Drag Week 2012!! I received the email last night and registered this morning. Now back to work getting the car ready!

[nmw2006]

That is awesome news :thumb: Good luck!

[Sundance 6g72]

:thumb:

[RoadWarrior222]

AWESOME SAUCE!!!!! 16M scoville edition!

If you run outa time to get those coolant barbs extended then the quick and dirty way might be to hammer pipe over them and use exhaust style U-clamps.

[87turbodance]

How's the motor coming?

[c2xejk]

Engine is in, and just about everything if fabricated for the initial test. (things like the coolant reservoir and water injection can wait until after the initial startup.) Right now the big road block is spark. I am not getting the coil to spark the plugs. Not sure if it is an MS2 issue, wiring or bad coil/distributor... I hope to finish that diagnostic work tonight.

[RoadWarrior222]

Wire it up for DIS, electronic ignition dizzy, and magneto and points... nothing like having some redundancy :D

[c2xejk]

Last night I figured out that both of the terminals of the 2-wire are connected up to the coil and using them you can directly fire the coil... Problem solved.

I tested out the radiator fan and discovered that the brand new fan doesn't work...

[c2xejk]

Last night I put the engine back together (fixing a coolant leak.) On a whim I decided to try and start the engine using the calibration from the prior 3L engine. On the second crank it fired right up and idled at 2K. Tweaked the IAC steps and brought it down to 1200. Checked timing and it was off a little. (7 degrees. Not too bad.) I was very pleased with how the engine was running!

It was getting late so I went ahead and shut it down for the night.

The Snow 20001 water/alcohol injection should arrive tonight so I can start looking at how I want to install it. With a little luck I should be driving the car this weekend...

PS. 24 days till DragWeek!

[Sundance 6g72]

dang its already been a year...

good luck this year. bigger motor and some slicks! time to go fast

[c2xejk]

dang its already been a year...

good luck this year. bigger motor and some slicks! time to go fast

Not to mention a turbo!

[Sundance 6g72]

oo yeah :evil:

[c2xejk]

The water injection system has been installed and the Shadow is out of the barn and been on a couple quick trips to start tuning. So far I have kept engine to a max of 6 psi. The turbo does not seem to be as laggy as I expected it to be.
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1050/1004480h.jpg

[Sundance 6g72]

i bet its fast as snot :drooling:

[MC#4]

The car is already running and driving!?!? Maybe it's just me but that seemed to happen very fast! Awesome.

[Sundance 6g72]

hes got less than a month to drive it about 2000 miles and race every day!

Ill have to make a trip down sometime and see this thing. just need to find the right excuse. Maybe ill buy a car down there when the time comes.

[Shadow24]

no vids? I wanna hear that 3.5 turbo! :) BTW, did those base maps help out on getting it started?

[c2xejk]

I am still sorting out some of the details, videos will come eventually.

I ended up using my 12v 3L maps as baseline. At idle they were close. Off idle, I have been having to add a bunch to the VE tables... At some point I do want to compare what you had to what I end up with...

[c2xejk]

The car is already running and driving!?!? Maybe it's just me but that seemed to happen very fast! Awesome.


hes got less than a month to drive it about 2000 miles and race every day!

Ill have to make a trip down sometime and see this thing. just need to find the right excuse. Maybe ill buy a car down there when the time comes.

As Joe mentioned, I do have a deadline! The test drives have revealed several problems.

1) I am OUT of fuel. At 10psi the injector duty cycle is 130%. I need to find larger injectors pronto. The current ones are 300cc.
2) The current cooling fan is not moving enough air. The engine is trending toward overheating when stopped in traffic...
3) The speedometer is not working...
4) Still a lot of things on my punch list and I would like to try and get the AC working...

[Shadow24]

1) hmmm, stock 3.5 injectors were 270cc, so 300cc wasn't much extra fuel at all. Supposedly some of the subaru injectors are a drop-in fit and go into the 400cc range, but they arn't cheap. (EDIT 2 - I scored some Galant VR4 injectors from a non-US spec 2.5 v6 TT that are 390ccs and are drop ins for the 3.0/3.5 mani, but I haven't seen another set show up in the 2 years since I got mine...)

2) Stock shadow fan? I never had a problem with cooling on the 3.0, but then again, its not turbo either. (EDIT - it looks like the older shadow radiator isn't as big as the 92+ 3.0 radiators...maybe that is a contributing factor...)

3) should work fine w/o the computer. may have to splice in 12v and jump the old CPU feed/output wires, don't remember exactly ATM.

4) Pretty sure that the A/C can be made to work with the 3.0/3.5 motors with some A/C line work. Plus you should be able to retain the stock pressure sensors and wire the new A/C compressor clutch wires into the existing system. At least thats what my plan is and it seems like everything fits and "should" work... :) (see my thread for pics) Also, I was looking at going with this refrigerant, supposedly as good as 12a but compatible with 12a and R134 http://www.duracool.com/

[c2xejk]

1) hmmm, stock 3.5 injectors were 270cc, so 300cc wasn't much extra fuel at all. Supposedly some of the subaru injectors are a drop-in fit and go into the 400cc range, but they arn't cheap. (EDIT 2 - I scored some Galant VR4 injectors from a non-US spec 2.5 v6 TT that are 390ccs and are drop ins for the 3.0/3.5 mani, but I haven't seen another set show up in the 2 years since I got mine...)

Yup, I figured I was going to have to upgrade them... I believe they are the same style as Toyota uses. Looking on ebay I have found some, just debating how big to go. There are some 440cc injectors. There are also some in the 500 and 600cc range.


2) Stock shadow fan? I never had a problem with cooling on the 3.0, but then again, its not turbo either. (EDIT - it looks like the older shadow radiator isn't as big as the 92+ 3.0 radiators...maybe that is a contributing factor...)

No, aftermarket fan. I needed a slim fan to fit past the exhaust manifold. The 14" one from SiliconeIntakes.com was DOA. I am in process of trying to get a replacement. In the mean time I bought a 12" from Advance Auto. I am toying with installing the stock fan as a pusher for the moment.


3) should work fine w/o the computer. may have to splice in 12v and jump the old CPU feed/output wires, don't remember exactly ATM.

Yeah, I fixed this last year and suspect I undid something when I installed the new battery.


4) Pretty sure that the A/C can be made to work with the 3.0/3.5 motors with some A/C line work. Plus you should be able to retain the stock pressure sensors and wire the new A/C compressor clutch wires into the existing system. At least thats what my plan is and it seems like everything fits and "should" work... :) (see my thread for pics) Also, I was looking at going with this refrigerant, supposedly as good as 12a but compatible with 12a and R134 http://www.duracool.com/

Remember that I am running a different setup than a stock 3.5L. I have a plan to tweak the AC hoses to fit better. Right now both are a tad short/not angled right.

[Shadow24]

Remember that I am running a different setup than a stock 3.5L. I have a plan to tweak the AC hoses to fit better. Right now both are a tad short/not angled right.

I actually don't remember... retaining the stock 12v compressor somehow?

Also, for calculating theoretical injector sizes, see http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx Supposedly for 350hp, you want 500cc injectors at 43.5psi fuel pressure. Although I seem to recall that the normal fuel pressure is around 55 on a shadow... FSM for the 24v SOHC 3.0 lists 47-50psi with the FPR closed and 38psi at full bypass, most likely its the same for the 3.5 with stock FPR

[c2xejk]

I have custom brackets for all the accessories.

The fuel system is heavily modified. I have an aftermarket AFPR, you can see it by the passenger side engine mount. I currently have the base fuel pressure set to 43.5. I will probably bump it up some in the short-term.

How big of injectors depends on several factors BSFC and max injector duty-cycle. According to one calculator I have looked at, 500cc injectors 400 crank hp @90% duty-cycle and .65 BSFC.

[Shadow24]

Gotcha,

Yeah the 500cc i calculated was based on a BSFC of .65 and a max duty cycle of 80%.

[john1320]

Is it viable to run a pusher fan in front? (like some M3s run)

[MC#4]

I've been running a pusher fan for 6 months now with no issues. Makes a whole lot more room under the hood.

[john1320]

Thank you. When I go the front tube header route, there will be little choice, so good to know now. :)

[RoadWarrior222]

If I were doing it, I'd be sure to find a fan that was used as a pusher in original application.... just 'coz I'd want to make sure that I got tough enough blades to stand up to a bit of grit and gravel hitting it without assploding.

[Vigo]

Now that i think about it, all the OEM pusher fans ive seen have full 'cages' for shrouds to limit the size of the object that can get to the blades.

[roachjuice]

Car ran good. Didn't break anything. It's quiet!!! I think he got a 14.8@98 2.4 60ft. It's got way more in it. Needs a better burn out and launch a little more aggressive. Seemed like he was getting a feel for it.
Nice too meet ya today. Good luck on the rest of the journey. I'll be back at the track when you guys return to Tulsa.

[MC#4]

Cool, I was hoping we would get some updates.

[roachjuice]

He's gonna take the muffler off tomorrow morning. I gave him directions to a local muffler shop down the road. Maybe he can hear it now lol

[c2xejk]

Let's see if this link works for the pictures I took of some of the cars...

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151205185010132.511934.744450131&type=1

[MC#4]

Let's see if this link works for the pictures I took of some of the cars...

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151205185010132.511934.744450131&type=1

Very cool! That triumph turbo is crazy!

[c2xejk]

He's gonna take the muffler off tomorrow morning. I gave him directions to a local muffler shop down the road. Maybe he can hear it now lol

Checked out the directions when I got back to the hotel. Looks like it should be pretty quick to get to... Hopefully they will be able to get me in quickly tomorrow.

[nmw2006]

I want to see how a couple of those full-blown drag cars hold up. As well as what is under the hood of the RX7.

[c2xejk]

I will see what I can do. I don't think I saw the RX7 with it's hood up today... I should be able to find it sometime this week....

[roachjuice]

I want to see how a couple of those full-blown drag cars hold up. As well as what is under the hood of the RX7.

Small block or an LSX turbo. It was turbo either way lol. LSX cars were out in full force.

[roachjuice]

Checked out the directions when I got back to the hotel. Looks like it should be pretty quick to get to... Hopefully they will be able to get me in quickly tomorrow.

Yea just tell him what's going on and you need to be on the road ASAP lol. If those two places that i mentioned dont work out there is a place on 21st and memorial area on 21st south west side called randys brake and muffler. Guy is good too. It's a little further south though. From the track Head south on 169 Take the 21st exit west head down there to memorial. That intersection there is a quick trip and a walgreens and a Mexican car lot. Right past that intersection on the left blue and yellow building. Can't miss it.

[roachjuice]

Oh btw. That waffle house off 76th st n is great :) I go there all the time.

[Sundance 6g72]

so did you bring just the spirit or both cars?

[c2xejk]

Just the Spirit, the Shadow wasn't ready.

Just got into Ennis, TX. Racing got started late and Daily Driver went last... Then 380 miles of driving.

I took the car to the shop Roachjuice recommend and the guy quickly removed the muffler. The car is mildly louder most of the time. It drones a little on the highway, but not bad.

The car ran a quickest time of 14.616 w/2.3 or 2.4 60' and a fastest time of 99.? (I don't have the slips in front of me.) Checked the slicks after the second run and pressure was back up to 20psi...

I have some pictures and videos, but it will be a day or two before I post them.

The RX-7 has a Mopar 360 under the hood.

Time to go to sleep.

[c2xejk]

Some additional information of the 234+ cars that registered, only 187 showed up!!! More than last year, but that is a LOT of no shows...

Right now it would take a pass of 12.4 or quicker to be able to make the Quick 32. That is slower than I expected.

[RoadWarrior222]

That's a pisser for those that couldn't register.... nearly 50 no shows... should get blackballed for 2 years or something, unless they give up their reg to someone else at least a week before.

[nmw2006]

That's awesome. (referring to the RX7) At least he went the right (Mopar) path with it. I was gonna bash him for running pistons if it was "another" LS swap. :evil:

[roachjuice]

That's awesome. (referring to the RX7) At least he went the right (Mopar) path with it. I was gonna bash him for running pistons if it was "another" LS swap. :evil:

Lol aint nothing wrong with some LSX power. At least he didn't try to put a ford 4.6 2v in it. But yea I'll have to check it out when It comes to town again.

[Irocelectric93]

Hey man a new Ford 5.0 would be cool. EVERYONE uses the LS motors. I understand they are reliable, easy to get parts for etc but seriously i get so tired of everyone and their brother doing LS swaps.

[RoadWarrior222]

I know how we can kill it... there's someone selling/trading a Daewoo Leganza in the classies, we just make a youtube vid of a 90 year old great grandma swapping an LS7 into it, while using ricer slang badly.

[Sundance 6g72]

yeah the only imports last year had.. LS motors. Fastest ford, LS motor, etc. I liked it down there but man i did get annoyed at all the LS this LS that. Have to use the best to win i guess. Non of those guys would ever consider an RB or a 2jz :P

[Shadow24]

Its not an RX7 if it aint got a rotary... :) 20B consmo turbo peripheral port FTW :)

[roachjuice]

Its not an RX7 if it aint got a rotary... :) 20B consmo turbo peripheral port FTW :)

Its a MX1. Mopar experiment 1 :)

[roachjuice]

yeah the only imports last year had.. LS motors. Fastest ford, LS motor, etc. I liked it down there but man i did get annoyed at all the LS this LS that. Have to use the best to win i guess. Non of those guys would ever consider an RB or a 2jz :P

I'd consider a 2jz in something.
LSX because:
Its cheap
Parts are fairly cheap
Parts can be bought at any local parts chain
Its TOUGH
It makes good power in stock form
It's reliable
It's simple
There are a ton of them for a reason. Like I tell those ford 4.6 guys. You don't see people stuffing 4.6 mod motors in cars because it's the exact opposite of the LSX.
The rotary is a fail. It sucks. In a street car it's worthless.

[Sundance 6g72]

my buddies 4.6 is ready for over 1000rwhp...



Ed, lets see that 60 foot get cut down! i know you can do better than that. hit the limiter, slam the clutch!!! lol This car has 300hp, make it move!! i want to see a 13.5 second pass

[1BADVAN]

That Ram SRT-10 was on the forum a few months back, someone here had it in there shop, Turbocharged viper motor, I think it ran 10s or better.
Good luck to you!

[1BADVAN]

found you on you tube :-) At 2 hours and 26 minutes

Don't feel bad he seems to call every mopar the wrong name :confused:

http://youtu.be/b8Y8W5V441g?t=2h26m33s

[roachjuice]

found you on you tube :-) At 2 hours and 26 minutes

Don't feel bad he seems to call every mopar the wrong name :confused:

http://youtu.be/b8Y8W5V441g?t=2h26m33s

Lol yea announcer kept calling it a shadow

[MC#4]

"dodge shadow 2 litre turbo"

fail

[Vigo]

What boost level are these 98-99mph passes at?

Also what are the slicks? And why arent they working? I launched my 3.0 off the 5800 limiter on my 23" slicks and was clutch-limited to 2.0-2.1. If you have a better clutch and/or bigger slicks i dont see why you shouldnt be doing at least that well.

[roachjuice]

In tulsa He was launching holding and not pumping the gas to keep the turbo spooled 2200-2500 rpm. Pretty much launching in full vacuum. Slicks were 20psi. Boost was 10psi. What he needs is
More burn out. Smoke the crap out of them
More rpm on the launch. Pump the gas. Keep the turbo spooled. Holding the gas will make the turbo spool down
Lower slick tire pressure. 15psi on down.
This car has a low 13 high 12 in it as it sits.

[Shadow24]

at least he hit a 14.3 this time. If he can get the launch sorted out I think your right with a low 13, maybe high 12.

EDIT: also, what RPM are you shifting at? If you can (don't know if the spirit has an MS like the shadow is going to have), change the rev limiter to like 7200. I'd clear the traps in 3rd at 6800ish with a 14.3@94. might net a better ET than hitting the taller gear in 4th...

[c2xejk]

I think he keeps call it a Shadow, because that is what I originally entered... Not sure on the 2L other than maybe bad eye sight... As you can see in the video, I managed a 14.3 @98 on a 2.2 60'.

The problem I am having with the slicks is I am trying to launch too hard... I keep busting them free... A bigger burn out should help. Right now I am reving to 2500 and stabbing the throttle as I let out the clutch. They wheel hop some then they grab and away I go... I may have to try being a little more gentle with the clutch, it tends to be grabby and chatter.

I have dropped the pressure in them. I start with them at 10psi cold. After the first run it was up to 15psi and after the 2nd run is was 20psi... Looks like I will need to drop the pressure down some between runs... (they are MT slicks.)

Boost is ~8psi. I do plan on turning it up some.

I have been adding pictures to my facebook page.

---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------


EDIT: also, what RPM are you shifting at? If you can (don't know if the spirit has an MS like the shadow is going to have), change the rev limiter to like 7200. I'd clear the traps in 3rd at 6800ish with a 14.3@94. might net a better ET than hitting the taller gear in 4th...

The car has a Greddy e-Manage, so I do not have control over the rev limiter... I am shifting right about 6200...

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

Some additional info. We weighed the car today. (I don't have the figures in front of me, but here is what I remember.) 3194 ready to go down the track with me in it. The driver's side wheel was 100 lbs. heavier than the passenger side wheel.

I have been doing 1st gear burn-outs. I will probably try a 2nd gear burnout tomorrow. (I was going to try it on my second run, but I couldn't get the tech guy to put more water in the box...)

[Irocelectric93]

Right on ed. At least we're seeing some improvement. You'll get a 13.XX out of it for sure. Keep it up.

[86Shelby]

2nd gear burnout all the way. I used to do 1st gear trying to get them hot before they pulled me out of the box, got crappy launches. Tried 2nd gear and was able to get them good and hot before they pulled me out. Took my 60 from 2.1 to consistent 1.9s and several mid-low 1.8s in the right weather. In my RT I've ran the best with 13psi in the tires before each run, YMMV since you have a 6 popper but it's at least close being AA bodies.

I wish you the best! It would have been nice to get to go. Even better if the 20% of the participants hadn't been no-shows. I would have skipped SDAC and gotten the car ready to be flogged every day for this.

[Vigo]

More rpm on the launch. Pump the gas. Keep the turbo spooled. Holding the gas will make the turbo spool down
Lower slick tire pressure. 15psi on down.

Well, you dont NEED the turbo to get down at least into the 1.9s with a 3.0. If you can hook all the momentum of the motor at 6000 rpm you'll have way more energy to the tires than 2500 rpm and a little boost, and the turbo will spool anyway before the rpm settles and starts going back up in 1st. So almost instantly.


I guess it is a difference between slicks, and possibly the clutch. I was only able to spin my slicks by letting the clutch out way too fast. But, if your clutch is grabby it may do that whether you want it to or not, and if your slicks arent brand new like mine were, maybe they couldnt take the redline launch either. I have extremely little slicks experience so this is just my conjecture.

Good luck going forward!

[Shadow24]

Ed,

Nice work! I know I was having trouble with TOO much traction with my slicks (only 200hp) if I did a longer burnout. I was also dropping the clutch from 6000 rpms and still getting some bogging off the line and that was with 24.5x8.5 slicks. Its a bummer you can't raise the redline, you'd probably drop a couple tenths staying in each gear a bit longer, especially if 3rd can run you past the 1/4.

[Ondonti]

Well 3rd won't even get to 90mph for him so there ain't much to say there if he traps 98-99.

I don't see whats wrong with burning out the entire 1st gear on slicks. Best FWD manual trans launches on slicks are a 20% burnout the entire 1st gear. That way your 1st gear feels more like you have a loose torque converter then a clutch that wants to bog the engine.

If you are bogging then spinning, might as well start spinning the moment you let the clutch out. You can spin through 1st gear and still get middle 1 second 60's depending on how large of a tire you are spinning.

[Pat]

What I have always done is never alter my launch sequence...fair 2nd gear burnout, stage, lot of rpm (6k+) and let it go hard. Not a snap up of the clutch, but a verybhard release. I alter the tire pressure to adjust for hook vs power.

Monkeying with your burnout, launch rpm, clutch engagement and tire pressure together leads to inconsistency. Find a recipe that works and alter one variable to adjust for the traction and power you have.

Also, someone mentioned wheel hop. If you have a reasonably decent suspension and are getting wheelhop on slicks, you have way too much pressure in them.

[c2xejk]

Ok, update for you guys. Starting at the end, mid way through the Gilliam -> Memphis we developed a miss. Got off the interstate quickly and started diagnosing. The ecu initially said injector #3 circuit problem. Cleared codes and tried again. This time it said injector #4 circuit problem... Started looking over the injector harness and found where it had been touching the crossover pipe and melted... Pulled the upper intake to access and repair the harness in a gas station parking lot! No further problems with it during the remaining 170 miles to Memphis.

Now for the update you have been wanting. Started doing a 2nd gear burnout and 60' dropped to 2.1 (second pass) and I pulled a 14.1@98. Since I was determined to make a 13 second pass I made a few more. During one I watched the boost gauge and I was only getting 6 MAYBE 7psi. I had turned it up and on the street I was getting 10psi. When I dynod, boost was peaking at 9-10psi before settling to 8. Now on the track I am getting 6??? That explains where the power went...

On a whim, I made some passes with street tires and was able to get a 14.4@100.8 (boost was up a little more...) (2.6 60')

Tomorrow morning I am going to inspect the boost controller.

Pat, how much pressure do you like in your slicks? Right now pressure in my slicks is ~12psi. My clutch tends to be very grabby and I think the struts are getting old...

[RoadWarrior222]

Well if you can find somewhere with compressed air, go grab a cheap fuel filter that looks like it will jam in one of your intake pipes and saw the bottom off it, hose clamp it on there, apply air to fitting, and check for boost leaks.

[Pat]

Ok, update for you guys. Starting at the end, mid way through the Gilliam -> Memphis we developed a miss. Got off the interstate quickly and started diagnosing. The ecu initially said injector #3 circuit problem. Cleared codes and tried again. This time it said injector #4 circuit problem... Started looking over the injector harness and found where it had been touching the crossover pipe and melted... Pulled the upper intake to access and repair the harness in a gas station parking lot! No further problems with it during the remaining 170 miles to Memphis.

Now for the update you have been wanting. Started doing a 2nd gear burnout and 60' dropped to 2.1 (second pass) and I pulled a 14.1@98. Since I was determined to make a 13 second pass I made a few more. During one I watched the boost gauge and I was only getting 6 MAYBE 7psi. I had turned it up and on the street I was getting 10psi. When I dynod, boost was peaking at 9-10psi before settling to 8. Now on the track I am getting 6??? That explains where the power went...

On a whim, I made some passes with street tires and was able to get a 14.4@100.8 (boost was up a little more...) (2.6 60')

Tomorrow morning I am going to inspect the boost controller.

Pat, how much pressure do you like in your slicks? Right now pressure in my slicks is ~12psi. My clutch tends to be very grabby and I think the struts are getting old...

Depends on the weight of the car and what slicks you use. I've had good luck with the 23" M&H's around 9-11 psi. They look almost flat, but they work there. With 24" Mickey Thompsons, I ran a bit more...I want to say 11-12. Changing the pressure didn't alter much of how it hooked, so I kept it a bit higher to keep rolling resistance down. On the 24.5" M&H's, I've had great luck with low pressures. I've run as low as 7 psi, but they seem to work great at 8 psi.

One other thing to mention...someone had said earlier that you don't want too much hook. That's fairly true. The best ST's you'll get is if you keep a bit of wheelspeed and let the slicks drag you forward. They'll spin a little and hold the motor at a fairly consistent rpm. Lauch it hard, if it blows them away, drop air pressure out of the slicks. if it hooks hard a bogs a bit, add a bit of pressure to the slicks. When it works, you'll hear a nice tearing sound out of the slicks through first gear.

Good luck and thanks for representing us out there! Sad I'm not out there with you!

[RoadWarrior222]

When it works, you'll hear a nice tearing sound out of the slicks through first gear.!

It kinda sounds like skeeeeeeerrr to me, with a low e not a high e... kinda like cornering hard when they sing but don't skitter or screech.

---------- Post added at 08:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 AM ----------

possibly more of a skuuuurrrrr :D

[Shadow24]

nice work pulling out the 14.1! I know I was running between 18-22psi on my 24.5x8.5 slicks launching at like 6000 (don't have access to my data sheet at work :( ) but I was pulling 2.0-1.9's with some bog (only 200hp though).

[c2xejk]

Found this picture! I nominate this as hood scoop of the year! :) In case you are wondering, yes it is raining here in Memphis right now.
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3848/hoodscoopoftheyear.jpg

[Shadow24]

nice! use what you have to though :)

[MC#4]

Sounds like its got a 13 sec pass in it. Good Luck!

[Sundance 6g72]

getting closer! get a sub 2.0 60' and get the boost to hold 10psi!!

megasquirt would be nice for this sitution. it barrely holding 7psi in third and 4th? i know i dont make much boost in 1st or 2nd most of the time.

[c2xejk]

Bad news guys, I made my first pass and on the way down the track everything was fine. Let off the throttle coasted down, then got into the throttle to head to the timing shack and nothing... Clutch in and the engine stalls. Put it in gear and it restarted for a few seconds...

I got a push back to the pits and started diagnosis. As far as I can tell, no spark...

So far we have:
-bypassed the MSD
-replaced the coil
-replaced the distributor.

Looking on the scan tool, during a crank the ecu is seeing RPM and the B+ wire to the coil comes on, but still no spark. (checked with a timing light and directly off the coil to a ground.)

I have gone plan B and rented a car to go get my truck and trailer...

I might have some time to try something before putting the car on the trailer if anybody has any ideas.

[turbovanman²]

Is the coil actually getting a signal from the computer?

Great job on the times previously though, :thumb:

[c2xejk]

Can't really tell. I didn't bring a scope so we have been shooting blind...

I have wondered if distributor was bad and in the proccess of cranking a bunch to test we have fouled the spark plugs.

Does anybody know how the computer uses the two optical sensors in the distributor? Could it calculate RPM, from just one of the two sensors and not command spark because one of the sensors is bad?

[RoadWarrior222]

Outer ring spark timing, inner ring injector timing. Opticals can die with age, or get dirty, or ring can get debris in.

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36532&d=1325812926

---------- Post added at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

BTW I believe it is possible for oil to come up the diz shaft at high RPM, due to worn seals, which if it globs all over teh opticals and disk would screw things up until cleaned.

[Shadow24]

That sucks... Grab a spare dizzy possibly? Also double check for melted/shorted wires. an unseen short is a b*tch to deal with.

[roachjuice]

Man that sux. It's raining here in Tulsa. I see a bunch of the guys made it here. Owasso is a happening spot today lol.

[turbovanman²]

You said a new dizzy, as in a brand new one or store bought rebuilt or a used one?

Have had a few store units bad right out of the box over the years, could have happened to you. Check for injector pulse, you can use a 12 volt test light.

[c2xejk]

Store bought reman unit. I can throw in a known good distrib when I get home... We could smell fuel, so I think it is fueling the engine... But I can also check it when I get it home.

So did they run the final day? When I was there at 11am, they were starting to dry the track and staging lanes...

[roachjuice]

I had a funeral to attend at 1. So I couldnt go to hot rid drag week yesterday. I'm not sure if they ran. It was misting all afternoon. If you come back through owasso there is a burrito place that's good eating. Baja jacks burrito shack. Call me if you do this weekend. We'll meet up.

[RoadWarrior222]

Store bought reman unit. 2012 definition, taken from a wrecker, thrown through a parts washer, boxed up shiny.

[c2xejk]

Just finished up diagnosis and repairs on the Spirit. Bad ECU. My scope showed an almost non-existent trigger signal to the coil... Dropped in a replacement ecu I had on hand and the car fired right up!

[RoadWarrior222]

Bad ECU! BAD, BAD ECU!! Go lie down in the corner!

[Ondonti]

I have an ecu with that same problem. 5 speed so it was a shame to kill it. No idea if its ever worth fixing.

[shayne]

is there a company that rebuilds or reconditions the stock computers?

[Ondonti]

There is a company that does them for 3000gt's which seem to fry all the time (capacitors). It probably makes no sense price wise for us.

[RoadWarrior222]

If it were here, I'd probably just try replacing the output transistor and crossing my fingers... in the absence of other smoking guns, like black and crispy resistors or assploded caps.

[Sundance 6g72]

we fried the ecu in my buddies GSX.. his dad opened it up and re soldered the connection that broke. it was very obvious. could be the same deal with brents and ed's ecu. Ours are a pain in the --- though because we have that gel crap all around our ecu to protect them from moisture or something.. all that just to mount it under the hood and not in the cabin.

[c2xejk]

Back before dragweek I had ordered a bunch of things from SiliconeIntakes.com. The fan I received didn't work. After debating it some, I opted to have them send a replacement. Because of other issues getting the Shadow working, I didn't worry that it didn't arrive.

Now that DragWeek is over and back to working on the Shadow some, I thought I should check on it. Friday afternoon I sent them an email asking the status. Saturday morning my son comes out and tells me that there is a FedEx guy on the front porch... He had a package for me! Opened it and found the replacement fan!

SiliconeIntakes had sent it FedEx overnight with Saturday delivery to me! Wow! I didn't ask for that... I will be definitely going back to them for future intake parts that I need!

[MC#4]

Back before dragweek I had ordered a bunch of things from SiliconeIntakes.com. The fan I received didn't work. After debating it some, I opted to have them send a replacement. Because of other issues getting the Shadow working, I didn't worry that it didn't arrive.

Now that DragWeek is over and back to working on the Shadow some, I thought I should check on it. Friday afternoon I sent them an email asking the status. Saturday morning my son comes out and tells me that there is a FedEx guy on the front porch... He had a package for me! Opened it and found the replacement fan!

SiliconeIntakes had sent it FedEx overnight with Saturday delivery to me! Wow! I didn't ask for that... I will be definitely going back to them for future intake parts that I need!

Very impressive!

I ordered 3" exhaust on 9/6 and haven't gotten it yet. Due here Friday.

[c2xejk]

I am seriously considering going to Turbopalooza to make a few passes at full boost... See if I can find out what the Spirit can do with slicks _AND_ 10psi of boost...

[roachjuice]

I am seriously considering going to Turbopalooza to make a few passes at full boost... See if I can find out what the Spirit can do with slicks _AND_ 10psi of boost...

Do it!!!! Get some video!!

[MC#4]

Do it!!!! Get some video!!

+1!!!

[c2xejk]

Making Turbopalooza is looking unlikely right now. My truck (tow vehicle) has had some play in the steering and over the weekend it started making some noise from the passenger side front wheel. Jacked it up and found a LOT of play in the upper ball joint (tire moves more than 1/2"). Parts are not going to be in until tuesday and I don't consider it safe to drive the way it is...

[Ondonti]

No tow van?

[c2xejk]

The tow van has been gone for several years...

[Vigo]

No van = sadness. No context needed.. hehe

[c2xejk]

Fired up the 3.5L in the Shadow. Once it warmed up I noticed it does not like to idle lean. At ~14.9-15.0:1 a cylinder seemed to miss... Richen it up and it goes away... Not sure if one of the 600cc injectors isn't firing right or if the injector doesn't like to be fired for very short amounts. I might try reducing the fuel pressure so I can lengthen the pulse width...

[Ondonti]

lean misfire is not fun to diagnose. No fouled plugs :P

[Sundance 6g72]

i just idled the car in the 14-13 area.

Megasquirt was so much fun, i got good at figuring out what misfire came from what and why. kind of miss messing with it. Its so cold right now that i dont want to start the duster with such thick oil.

[c2xejk]

Took the car for a couple quick trips (3-4 miles). I avoided getting into boost for right now. Other than blowing off the turbo outlet hose (forgot to tighten), no problems. I started retuning it with the 600cc injectors. Boy these things are NOISY. They make a loud click. I put some of the factory plastic covers on to try and reduce it, but it didn't seem to help.... Just going to have to live with that I guess.

[c2xejk]

I have wanted closed loop idle so I could have a fairly consistent idle speed regardless of load on the engine (ie. electrical load.) Then a secondary reason developed over the holidays, during the drive into work the idle speed slowed down at each intersection. I had to manually change the IAC step curve to avoid the engine stalling.

Spent some time today trying to understand why I couldn't get closed-loop idle speed control working. Turns out I had the IAC wired the opposite of what it should be (ie. As the engine warmed up, iac step counts increased.)

The algorithm assume that the IAC count decreases to reduce RPM. Switching the wires around and the IAC count direction agrees with the algorithm. Still need to tune PID in a little more, but I am happy so far.

[Ondonti]

Sounds like what i did to my car. My wiring harness did not have proper tags on the IAC wires and I think I swapped things. The most maddening thing for me has been idle control and a refusal to go with manual idle control.

[c2xejk]

Ok, hear is the flow data for a few different 6G heads. I should have ported data in a few days...

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/6883/6gheadcomparisonintake.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img254/1989/6gheadcomparisonexhaust.png

[Vigo]

Love it! Thanks for the info!

[c2xejk]

A couple months ago I found out that my Shadow qualified for a historic plate. And that in Indiana you can run a Year Of Manufacture plate. For Christmas, my darling daughter got me an '87 plate and today my wife took care of all the BMV paperwork. So now my car can wear a YOM plate!! :dancingbana:


http://imageshack.us/a/img69/139/yomplate.jpg

[Vigo]

Nice!

[RoadWarrior222]

Cool, the historic plate thing we've got here isn't any good.

[c2xejk]

I just found out, Hot Rod is announcing Drag Week 2013 locations next week. One location a day Monday-Friday, not in order...

[Pat]

Hot Rod is driving me nuts...the way they have been playing with the locations would make you think they had some national secret. Kind of annoying.

[c2xejk]

Side note, the one clue they have given is that all the tracks are east of the Mississippi. Pat, are you thinking of bringing Scaries?

[Pat]

Side note, the one clue they have given is that all the tracks are east of the Mississippi. Pat, are you thinking of bringing Scaries?

Drag Week has been on my bucket list for a while and if it's east of the Mississippi, that's a huge plus for me being outside of DC.

I wouldn't bring the ScAries...that car is way too far from a street car. I do have a Shadow sitting in the driveway that could be an pretty good Drag Week car.

[c2xejk]

Depends on what you mean "too far from a street car." Many of the cars there stretch the definition of "street car".

Looks like Beech Bend has published a schedule that mentions Drag Week, but the dates do not make sense... http://www.beechbend.com/dragschedule.htm

[Pat]

Depends on what you mean "too far from a street car." Many of the cars there stretch the definition of "street car".

Looks like Beech Bend has published a schedule that mentions Drag Week, but the dates do not make sense... http://www.beechbend.com/dragschedule.htm

Ha ha! I should have clarified...too far from a street car for me to want to drive it. It's a tin can that sits too low, has way too stiff springs in it, the windows don't roll down, everything has been gutted, it rattles/buzzes and has no exhaust. Awesome race car but my soon to be 40 year old --- wants nothing to do with driving 1k miles in that thing! LOL!

[Ondonti]

Ha ha! I should have clarified...too far from a street car for me to want to drive it. It's a tin can that sits too low, has way too stiff springs in it, the windows don't roll down, everything has been gutted, it rattles/buzzes and has no exhaust. Awesome race car but my soon to be 40 year old --- wants nothing to do with driving 1k miles in that thing! LOL! Time for some ear protection, memory foam, and hole in the window medicine. Big baby!!!! ;)

[Pat]

Time for some ear protection, memory foam, and hole in the window medicine. Big baby!!!! ;)

Don't you worry...I have a plan for Drag Week that I believe will be plenty fast to qualify me in the top 32 in Daily Driver and still work with my big baby ways. :-)


Ed - I'm definiltey in and plan on registering as soon as it's open tomorrow. I'll PM you later.

[roachjuice]

ScAries and drag week would be tits!!

[c2xejk]

If you bring your Shadow, then there may be two Shadows at Drag Week...

[forcedfedmopar]

Im out this year. my wedding is that saturday....Drag week wedding? lol.

[c2xejk]

I am registered for Drag Week 2013! Order number 2150. Current guess is that will give me number 151.

[c2xejk]

The strut spring retainers arrived. The fully assembled struts with coilovers are 7.5 lbs. lighter than stock strut/springs.

I am currently working on converting the car to rear disk brakes. I have had the parts hanging around for a while, but now I am getting the motivation to install them. Along with the brakes, I will be replacing several hoses and some of the lines that look iffy. Plus whatever I break in doing the brakes and distribution block.

For replacement line I am using Copper-Nickel. If works well I may get some 3/8" line to upgrade the fuel lines.

I will also be converting to a hand actuated parking brake system instead of the current foot parking brake... Also installing a neon shifter console in the process.

[Spiritman]

strut pictures ??

[fishcleaner]

You have been busy

[c2xejk]

strut pictures ??
The only picture I have right now is this one from when I weighed it. Since I am using a Koni-insert, it looks like a plain jane strut...

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2821/imag0126hx.jpg

[Pat]

Looks great...love to hear details of what you used and how you did the struts.

[c2xejk]

I think others have documented this. Just used the Koni inserts for a Neon SRT4. Fit nicely in our strut housing. I think this thread http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?57268-After-Koni&highlight=Koni+srt4+insert covers most of the info including a youtube video of installing an insert (not on a Chrysler.)

[wallace]

What did you do at the strut tower for the spring seat?

[Irocelectric93]

I'd like to see pics of the top as well.

[Force Fed Mopar]

What did you do at the strut tower for the spring seat?

I used Neon strut mounts and drilled the strut tower to fit them on chilort's Daytona.

[Vigo]

All it takes is a 3.5" hole saw and a bit to drill the stud holes, pretty much.

[c2xejk]

I'd like to see pics of the top as well.

I kept the stock upper setup.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4255/coiloverupper.jpg

[fishcleaner]

Nice job!

[Reaper1]

It's been so long since I've had that bearing plate apart, but I seem to remember that area looking kinda weak. Maybe I'm thinking about something else and being paranoid?

[Irocelectric93]

If you kept the old bearing setup i have a set of camber plates if you want em Ed. You'd have to open up your strut towers a little to adjust em but i only installed them on my car once and then decided to go with BC's before i even drove it.

[Irocelectric93]

Your PM box is full Ed.

[c2xejk]

Your PM box is full Ed.

Oops. Fixed that.

[c2xejk]

Still triple digit number of days till Drag Week, but time is counting down. I have relocated the battery so I can install this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/9725/imag0193j.jpg

[Vigo]

Nice!

[Pat]

Looks great!

[Ondonti]

What intercooler is that? Treadstone? Or custom since I seem to see multiple cores there.

[c2xejk]

What intercooler is that? Treadstone? Or custom since I seem to see multiple cores there.

CXRacing http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=IC0012-A&Category_Code=INCO

I spent a lot of time debating between that one and the slightly smaller one... http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=IC0005&Category_Code=INCO

Current debate is how high to mount it... Current plan is mount it fairly low (like shown) and run the tubing similar to what Pat is doing on his car...

[c2xejk]

Looks great!

How is your car coming?

[Ondonti]

CXRacing http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=IC0012-A&Category_Code=INCO

I spent a lot of time debating between that one and the slightly smaller one... http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=IC0005&Category_Code=INCO

Current debate is how high to mount it... Current plan is mount it fairly low (like shown) and run the tubing similar to what Pat is doing on his car...
I have long been tempted by this type but I have ended up feeling like I will still go long core with a decent cross section. Would an opposing end tanks cooler fit better? I was looking at one of those but I still have not decided years later on vertical vs horizontal. I know in theory vertical has more flowpath and equal cooling capacity in the same size cooler but it is hard to accept (because there is little talk about it and few people sell them)! I am also bothered by the air having to slow down so much and then speed up again. I have not seen information about pressure drops and how they compare. Pressure in an efficient system should be near equal in the entire IC system but in that super large flowpath core, the air should just be moving very very slowly.

[c2xejk]

I have long been tempted by this type but I have ended up feeling like I will still go long core with a decent cross section. Would an opposing end tanks cooler fit better? I was looking at one of those but I still have not decided years later on vertical vs horizontal. I know in theory vertical has more flowpath and equal cooling capacity in the same size cooler but it is hard to accept (because there is little talk about it and few people sell them)! I am also bothered by the air having to slow down so much and then speed up again. I have not seen information about pressure drops and how they compare. Pressure in an efficient system should be near equal in the entire IC system but in that super large flowpath core, the air should just be moving very very slowly.

I am primarily concerned with minimizing pressure drop. Cooling is important, but it was my secondary consideration. I will still have the water/alcohol injection to help with the cooling (and octane boosting, and keeping the combustion chamber clean.)

Air going into an intercooler is going to slow down no mater what. As soon as it empties into the end cap, it will slow down. I probably lose a little bit of cooling compared to a core of the same size, but flowing long ways, but I expect that loss to be minimal. Pressure drop will be greater.

If I could have found a reasonable way to get the one that has the end cap exits diagonal to work, I would have chosen it for better efficiency...

[Pat]

How is your car coming?

Been swamped at work lately so not too much progress since least thread updates. All the mock up work is done, engine bay is completely empty again for cleaning and painting and dash and heater box are out for new heater and evaporator cores. I have a few weeks of lunacy to deal with at work, but I expect to be making progress again in the near future. She'll be ready though.

[Ondonti]

I am primarily concerned with minimizing pressure drop. Cooling is important, but it was my secondary consideration. I will still have the water/alcohol injection to help with the cooling (and octane boosting, and keeping the combustion chamber clean.)

Air going into an intercooler is going to slow down no mater what. As soon as it empties into the end cap, it will slow down. I probably lose a little bit of cooling compared to a core of the same size, but flowing long ways, but I expect that loss to be minimal. Pressure drop will be greater.

If I could have found a reasonable way to get the one that has the end cap exits diagonal to work, I would have chosen it for better efficiency...


BTW that smaller intercooler would definitely flow enough but the extra inch of length on your current core is nice. I don't know how much any of these giant intercoolers really help. I have always liked my cheapy tube/fin 12x3 and have probably never gotten close to maxing it out. I have heard of people having troubles with heatsoak on a long run with high hp and some of these cheaper intercoolers. Running an "800hp" intercooler and making 400 is probably safer then running it at 800. I don't exactly understand how a better intercooler would heatsoak less. Cheaper intercooler should pick up less heat (less fins) so it has to shed less heat. Probably just a situation where ducting would improve results.

E85 people sometimes ditch intercoolers but I don't see temps dropping enough to justify that.

[Sundance 6g72]

My cheepy cx racing intercooler has always kept temps really close to ambient but I haven't gone over 16psi really. IT should work just fine for a efficient turbo that doesn't heat things up much in the first place.

[Reaper1]

The CX Racing intercoolers seem to actually be pretty good. I did a "Gus Method" backpressure test on mine (CX Racing horizontal core) vs. stock vs. a vertical core eBay store Spearco knock-off. I did a thread on it here someplace with pictures and results. Anyway, the CX Racing did pretty darn well and I never had an issue with heat soak even running the car HARD for 20 minute stints at 20psi (road course...so not constant).

BTW, it seems to me that the cheaper IC's don't necessarily have less cooling potential. They just seem to have less efficient cores. What that means is there is a larger pressure drop for a given flow compared to a better core, but it still has the same cooling capacity. The heat soak issue comes into play because usually those cheap IC's not only aren't very efficient at passing the engine intake air, but also the oncoming cooling air. That means the cooling air stagnates and doesn't allow enough heat transfer. They can also hamper your engine's radiator because of this.

[c2xejk]

A quick video of the car starting

http://youtu.be/W0wTP2JKl6o

[Vigo]

Nice!

[Reaper1]

Man, I can't remember...is that a SOHC 24V or 12V?

[c2xejk]

24v SOHC

[roachjuice]

Bad a$$!!!

[c2xejk]

My Android tablet arrived. The plan is to use it for tuning. A windshield mount is on order. In the mean time I am checking out the options.

I loaded and tested MSDroid first since it is free. It seems to work well, but "dash" setups seem very limited. All the options are round gauges. For some things I would like a flat bar graph or just a number...

Looking at a video of Shadow Dash in action and it looks better... In addition to a variety of gauge shapes, it looks like you can show the acceleration data on the screen! (couldn't find that on MSDroid.) Based on what I have seen, looks like it should be worth the $9.99.

[Sundance 6g72]

I bought Shadow Dash. When talking with Phil on the phone he mentioned that he plans to make it a full scale tuning app just like Tuner Studio.

Right now you can log native Megalog viewer data (something shadow logger could not do)

For now, the only option for adjustments is MSDroid but Shadow Dash works great for real time monitoring when you dont want to have the laptop out. We are running one in place of a radio in my buddies car, its awesome.

[fishcleaner]

That car sounds wicked.

[Ondonti]

You keeping the plastic engine covers? :P
What do you mean by accelleration data? G forces based on something in the tablet? Or GPS or?

[c2xejk]

You keeping the plastic engine covers? :P
What do you mean by accelleration data? G forces based on something in the tablet? Or GPS or?
I have the cover on because the current injectors are noisy... My understanding is that Shadow Dash logs the accelerometer data from the tablet. I think it can also pull in GPS data for location and speed.