Turbo van parts list!

[jpdthe3rd]

Sorry about just letting the other thread go, it slipped my mind between work and school. but now i have to time off and im at kind of an impass. i have a holset Hx30 turbo and a built header, cheetah throtle body spacers, new plugs and wires. but other then that im stuck. i need to know what good parts i should ge. i still need an RRR, injectors, and a fuel pump. i have all my power goals in mind im looking for 500ish hp. please help me with what ever will get me there. and i know one of the questions from last time i posted was how tough the tranny is, and it was built to be stronger then factory because it when out on me/my father on two diffrent occations. so i need help with what parts i should get to achive max horse power and torque, the goal is 11's in the 1/4 mile. HELP!

[Sundance 6g72]

11s and 500 horsepower meens get megasquirt, the rising rate works fine but for such a big goal you need a better tuning tool

Youl need a walbro or other high flow fuel pump

Injectors, try for something high imperedence (if going with megadquirt) and rated in the 40# area

Proper tuning should be your main goal, a good wideband is needed amd youl want to get new rings and gap them properly if you really want 500hp

Youl need the obious front mount intercooler, piping, etc

[turbovanman²]

Transmission better be built if its an auto.

[paduster]

Transmission better be built if its an auto.
Enless u are willing to swap a 5 speed in

[Sundance 6g72]

And rebuild does not count as built

[c2xejk]

11s and 500 horsepower meens get megasquirt, the rising rate works fine but for such a big goal you need a better tuning tool


Pish Pash! It can be done with a Piggy-back controller like the e-Manage.

[shayne]

we'll have to see about the piggyback thing with high horsepower. on a second note i looked and the hx30 is to small for the goals in mind, it has a hard time flowing enough #of air to meet that power goal and its too small a turbo on the charts for an average 3.0l. itll just be a constriction that'lll kill the motor. an hx35 is nearly perfect from 300 to 550 hp on the charts.

[Sundance 6g72]

a piggy back can be used but noone i know of used it to hit 500hp WITHOUT a RRR paired with stock ecu. Emanage coulnd get timing control for our motors last time i checked.. so price vs. price, Megasquirt is most likely cheeper than an emanage and some type of spark controller. Id rather have it all in one box. going from 141hp to 500hp should be done on a stand alone, thats my opinion. idc if he uses AEM, as long as its a standalone thats proven to work well. Im all for trying new things but i dont think he had blowing up motor after motor until you get it perfect, in mind

[Vigo]

noone i know of used it to hit 500hp WITHOUT a RRR paired with stock ecu.

The ONLY way a RRR is useful is if you have no control over injection pulsewidth (which an Emanage does). RRR's let you run more fuel through small injectors. You dont need them with big injectors, but you cant run big injectors on a stock computer with no fuel control.

So, once you get that control from a piggyback like an emanage or FIC, the need for an RRR goes out the window. You can spend that same amount of money getting some right-size injectors, run them at a lower pressure (which increases the HP ability of the fuel pump), and have simpler tuning.

The one BIG drawback of a piggyback when you want to make BIG power is that they cant move the rev limiter. If you want BIG hp, getting more rpm makes it a lot easier to MAKE the power and to make the engine live (the more rpm you have, the less parts-breaking torque you need to hit X hp).

Luckily, im pretty sure the rev limiter can be moved on all 87-91 3.0 computers. I am not certain on 92-95.

If i was going to build a 500hp 3.0, i would start by getting my full tuning setup working on a STOCK motor. Then, i would pick a turbo that fits the goal and build the exhaust plumbing to use that turbo. Then i would worry about the motor itself, as far as cam choice/porting (these decisions should be made at the same time), doing a hone and re-ring with proper ring gaps, making sure the bottom end is ok, etc.

A case can be made that you dont NEED forged pistons to make 500hp, but most people will have so much money into a 500hp setup that the extra hundreds for forged pistons is 'cheap insurance'. :/

[Sundance 6g72]

does fic have timing control? i forget. a Buddy of mine uses it on his 2.4turbo but he is SWITCHING to megasquirt :eyebrows:

Ed said he couldnt get timing control out of the emanage.. maybe someone else can? who know knows. timing control is a must for such big power. Brent proved this. iirc, everytime he blew up it was timing related due to having stock ecu.

[turbovanman²]

Enless u are willing to swap a 5 speed in

Yep, then you need a proper clutch.


And rebuild does not count as built

Exactly.




A case can be made that you dont NEED forged pistons to make 500hp, but most people will have so much money into a 500hp setup that the extra hundreds for forged pistons is 'cheap insurance'. :/

Did you really just say that? Did you see the light? Have an epiphany? Wow, I guess leopards do change their spots, ;)

[c2xejk]

a piggy back can be used but noone i know of used it to hit 500hp WITHOUT a RRR paired with stock ecu. Emanage coulnd get timing control for our motors last time i checked.. so price vs. price, Megasquirt is most likely cheeper than an emanage and some type of spark controller. Id rather have it all in one box. going from 141hp to 500hp should be done on a stand alone, thats my opinion. idc if he uses AEM, as long as its a standalone thats proven to work well. Im all for trying new things but i dont think he had blowing up motor after motor until you get it perfect, in mind

Why are you saying it has to be done without an RRR? The RRR provides the bulk of the fuel until it maxes out pump pressure. The emanage fills in the gaps and fine tunes the fueling. When the pump maxes out, use the e-manage to control two auxillary injectors to continue adding fuel...


does fic have timing control? i forget. a Buddy of mine uses it on his 2.4turbo but he is SWITCHING to megasquirt :eyebrows:

Ed said he couldnt get timing control out of the emanage.. maybe someone else can? who know knows. timing control is a must for such big power. Brent proved this. iirc, everytime he blew up it was timing related due to having stock ecu.

I think the timing issue is with my emanage. I don't think it is a limitation of the emanage itself...

[Ondonti]

RRR makes it easier to idle on a larger injector when you don't have the greatest quality injectors or sequential injection. That is another good point that can be helpful for all setups. I am not using one on my Duster but I could see myself doing it again with my current fuel system if I wanted to avoid upgrading injectors for now and still be able to idle (Ramp up fuel pressure to fake larger injectors when in boost, all I can do now is increase base pressure which would mess up idle. I have excess fuel pump capacity so that is not my concern).

Megasquirt is a good idea for high power goals because higher rpms will allow you a wider powerband even when you are forced to use a large turbo that spools late in the rpms. That is something I didn't like on a 67mm with 6200 rpm limiter AND cams. No power then bam, then redline. Every shift dropped me out of the powerband and also boost if I didn't powershift.

If someone is actually going to go through with things then I agree with Vigo. Achieve your tuning solution first, then get the car running well. Then you can build the turbo setup that will reach your goals. Then later after that is running well on super low boost you can figure out where you want to go from there with motor changes.

[jpdthe3rd]

For the record the tranny blew and then was rebuilt past the factory spec. And i wont it to run on the factory computer i may invest in a megasquirt if i keep it long enough. And as far as RRRs go. Whatsva good brand or manufacturer. Also would a walbro 255 work forbthis or should i go bigger. And should i keep the stock fuel tank or upgrade that as well. I think the hx30 will do what i need with a fue mods but if worce comes to worce i sell it off or make a hybrid.

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

Sorry i was mistaken i do have a 35550 not the 30. Its been a good two months since i looked at tge project or the parts

[Sundance 6g72]

factory spec tranny wont hold 500hp

[forcedfedmopar]

500 WHP? what head are you running? What valves (size) who ported it? what does it flow? what cam are you running, what are your current dyno numbers? do you have a chart showing where power is made? air fuel ratio correct? what intake manifold? What rods/pistons? How gutted is the van? How good at tunning suspension are you? How good of a driver are you? Maybe i missed another thread but more details would be nice.

[Sundance 6g72]

300whp is a more practical goal. RRR has already been proven to work well for that. Not sure whats needed for the tranny to handle 300hp but i doubt the stock spec one will hold that either... at least thats what i hear


as for you forcefed, stock block and heads will handle the power if tuned right (but you have to actually TUNE it right you go CABAM).. thats why i said megasquirt to start. Get that working right, then get fuel system working right, then put a turbo on and go fast.

i set a long term goal and then do a few short term goals. First shortterm would be to get the tuning right (piggy back, rrr, or stand alone)

[turbovanman²]

factory spec tranny wont hold 500hp

Agreed, and its the torque that will grenade it first.

[Ondonti]

Agreed, and its the torque that will grenade it first.
And I don't think a mild holset will be friendly to the trans in the torque department on a 6

[jpdthe3rd]

Tranny was rebuilt to above stock specs and im here to find out about if i need new heads or cams. The goal is 11sa dosnt need to be 500a poneys. And im a good circle track and technical driver. I may just scrap the project and buy a datsun 280 and v8 swap it. I just wonted to jump into to turbo world for fun and to run some ricers off the road

[87turbodance]

The A604 will die if you put over a couple hundred HP through it. Newer A604s can handle more power but you will have some complicated tuning issues (see below). Shift maps will be wrong for vehicle running 11s. You'll be flaring shifts in a matter days and then bam! stuck in second gear. People need to invest literally thousands to make the A604 handle power. It can handle more power then the A413 three speed at a price.

I'd be looking at an HX40 with a loose converter, billet trans parts and a stand alone trans controller. Then be prepared to spend many many days tuning. A670 3 speed might last longer but I'd keep a collection of parts. Don't forget a LSD for the A604 so the van will not sit there and burn off one tire.

I'm going to say this - stick with the v8 swapped Datsun. 11's in a 3.0/auto turbo van is going to be troublesome.

[Sundance 6g72]

Tranny was rebuilt to above stock specs and im here to find out about if i need new heads or cams. The goal is 11sa dosnt need to be 500a poneys. And im a good circle track and technical driver. I may just scrap the project and buy a datsun 280 and v8 swap it. I just wonted to jump into to turbo world for fun and to run some ricers off the road

you say above stock specs now.. what exactly do you mean by that?

gutted sundance. junkyard long block (stock stock stock) with a big turbo, intake, exhaust, proper fuel mods BAM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7-5IfDfLno

that being said, if you REALLY want 11s. Do it the right way and re ring the block and do some headwork and cam work if you can afford it. it will only make it easier.

[Vigo]

People need to invest literally thousands to make the A604 handle power. It can handle more power then the A413 three speed at a price.

I was under the impression that if you got a good controller (<1k) and just set the stock trans up tight (cheap if you do it yourself) it would hold a lot higher power than a stock-parts 3spd.

[turbovanman²]

The A604 will die if you put over a couple hundred HP through it. Newer A604s can handle more power but you will have some complicated tuning issues (see below). Shift maps will be wrong for vehicle running 11s. You'll be flaring shifts in a matter days and then bam! stuck in second gear. People need to invest literally thousands to make the A604 handle power. It can handle more power then the A413 three speed at a price.

I'd be looking at an HX40 with a loose converter, billet trans parts and a stand alone trans controller. Then be prepared to spend many many days tuning. A670 3 speed might last longer but I'd keep a collection of parts. Don't forget a LSD for the A604 so the van will not sit there and burn off one tire.

I'm going to say this - stick with the v8 swapped Datsun. 11's in a 3.0/auto turbo van is going to be troublesome.


Agreed on the stock specs but a properly built 4 speed can take it, I don't think it will take $1000's either, I know of one locally.

11's trouble some, nah, I'll be there next year with the 4 cylinder, :nod:

Agreed the Datsun will be easier but what fun is that, nothing like seeing a van do 11's or 12's.


I was under the impression that if you got a good controller (<1k) and just set the stock trans up tight (cheap if you do it yourself) it would hold a lot higher power than a stock-parts 3spd.

I think your right, although an aftermarket controller would be the ticket for controlling shifts better, or until Rob cracks the code, which should be soon.

[87turbodance]

The aftermarket controller is available for just under 1K but it is pretty much race only from what I've read and tuning the clutch to clutch shifts seems awful hard to do. Then when the clutches wear you have to keep retuning to keep the shifts correct.

11s are completely possible in a van! Just not possible with an A604 that hasn't been built to the extreme. There are a few threads on the neon forums about people using the A604 (41te) with a 2.4 turbo and aftermarket controller. Interesting read.

Huge thread on the subject:
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=307286&sid=279b7a91dbe5a6faf1cfc3fa84072807

[Vigo]

There is probably a way to setup a factory TCM and the aftermarket TCM and switch back and forth with a switch and a bank of relays. Bottom line, though.. if you want to go fast with a 604 you need to be a decent trans builder AND a decent electrician, AND have at least $1k-1500 to get rolling.

[Sundance 6g72]

5spd swap

[Ondonti]

Do the clutches really wear fast enough to feel like its a constant worry? How do other electronic transmissions deal with it when people are directly controlling shifts?

[87turbodance]

I only know what I've read from others experiences so I guess it should be taken with a grain of salt.

My biggest concern is would we get a decent return on the large investment of building an A604 to take power and electronics to control it. The thread on the Neon forum is gives a rough total of about $3000 all said and done for a built 604 with stand alone controller.

[Vigo]

How do other electronic transmissions deal with it when people are directly controlling shifts?

The thing that makes the 604 control scheme complicated is that it is all 'clutch to clutch' shifting, without any bands or sprags. Usually when a trans changes gears one thing engages and one thing releases. When the thing 'releasing' is a sprag that's nice and easy because you dont need any kind of timing.. the sprag will just stop holding when whatever part it's holding starts wanting to spin the other direction. So you dont need any timing or control for a sprag releasing. That's what happens in the 413 1-2 shift, which is the easy shift to get right in that trans. A 413 going 2-3 has a clutch engaging and a band releasing. This is a 'clutch to clutch' shift and timing is important because neither of those holding elements applies or releases instantaneously and if the timing is not right it will either bind or flare. The 2-3 is the hard shift to get 'right' in a 413 for this reason, because timing is important and the timing is controlled by purely mechanical things like governor weights, fluid pressures, spring pressures, etc that you have to go into the trans to adjust. Super tedious and no automatic wear compensation which is why old/high miles 413s almost always flare 2-3.

The 604 is ALL clutch to clutch so not only is timing important from the get-go, but the trans would quickly (in DD terms) start working like ---- if there was no automatic timing control and monitoring for wear compensation. One of the reasons why it's hard to get a 604 to shift faster on stock controls is because it is easy to make clutches apply faster but hard to make them release faster, so if you do a basic shift kit that makes the clutch packs apply faster you will probably end up with one fully engaged before the other one full releases which causes a bind (transbrake effect).

Clutch packs release purely based on the strength of the return spring and the restriction of the orifices the fluid behind the apply piston has to flow out of to allow the piston to release the clutch pack. So without making those springs stronger and the fluid 'out path' less restrictive, there is nothing the electronics can do to make that part happen faster. This is why you need control of both the apply AND release timing to tune for the speed of BOTH, which is something that a shift kit you do in the valve body cannot give you.

A bank of switches can shift the trans but humans and their fingers dont have the milliseconds accuracy to avoid a bind or flare because of the clutch-to-clutch nature of the shifts, at least unless you go in there and mechanically make everything happen to have the right apply and release 'speed' first (hugely tedious/expensive trial and error).

[turbovanman²]

Yep, and unlike say a GM trans, which uses simple solenoids to set the gears.

[Vigo]

Well a 604 uses solenoids too but what makes it hard to control is that you always have TWO things that you need to control the timing of during a shift instead of just 1 as in a trans that uses one-way clutches (~sprags).

If you look at a 4t60 apply chart, 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4, one of things engaging/releasing is always a one-way clutch. When one of the things that needs to engage/release is a one-way clutch, it's just going to mirror/follow whatever the other holding element (the clutch pack) is doing, so you ONLY have to control how hard/fast that one clutch pack hits, to control the shift.

So you only have to control ONE clutch pack apply to get a good shift on each 4t60 shift, whereas you always have to control (and balance the timing of) TWO clutch packs (an apply and a release) to get a good shift on a 604.

[Reaper1]

I understand exactly what you are talking about, the reasoning behind it, and the theory. However, the 604 HAS been shifted via simple switches "successfully". The reason I put it in quotes is that the car was driven around a bit like that, but the person decided to go a different direction and never went to the track, nor was the engine making a lot of power. It was simply a proof of concept attempt.

Since there ARE aftermarket controllers for the 604 (and variants of that design including the 46RE, ect.), has anybody looked into HOW they actually control the transmission? Does it look at, and control the release element during a shift?

According to what I remember reading (YEARS ago) in the FSM for the A604 the shifts only require the different solenoids to be activated/deactivated. The hardest shift was the 2-1 downshift to get the transmission back into 1st as it requires a less intuitive application of the solenoids.

[turbovanman²]

I understand exactly what you are talking about, the reasoning behind it, and the theory. However, the 604 HAS been shifted via simple switches "successfully". The reason I put it in quotes is that the car was driven around a bit like that, but the person decided to go a different direction and never went to the track, nor was the engine making a lot of power. It was simply a proof of concept attempt.

Since there ARE aftermarket controllers for the 604 (and variants of that design including the 46RE, ect.), has anybody looked into HOW they actually control the transmission? Does it look at, and control the release element during a shift?

According to what I remember reading (YEARS ago) in the FSM for the A604 the shifts only require the different solenoids to be activated/deactivated. The hardest shift was the 2-1 downshift to get the transmission back into 1st as it requires a less intuitive application of the solenoids.

Who did it? Everything we've read and been told, IE Racerstev said that's impossible, as explained earlier.

[Vigo]

According to what I remember reading (YEARS ago) in the FSM for the A604 the shifts only require the different solenoids to be activated/deactivated. The hardest shift was the 2-1 downshift to get the transmission back into 1st as it requires a less intuitive application of the solenoids.

It's POSSIBLE for a 604 to shift acceptably with just switches, but that's a crapshoot. What if it doesn't? what if you do the switches and it binds/flares? You either buy/build a controller with accurate timing and adjustable delay settings, or you go in there and open the can of worms where you spend dozens if not hundreds of hours pulling it, drilling orifices in tiny increments, coming up with custom return springs, regulator changes, putting it back together, putting it back in the car, testing it, etc etc. People have been doing that with the 413 for 2+ decades and there are still only a handful of people on this forum who can get it to work right. That's basically the game you'd have to play to get a 604 to work right with switches.

[Ondonti]

Or buy a controller lol.

Rob needs to get that going. I will jump that bandwagon.

[Reaper1]

Who did it? Everything we've read and been told, IE Racerstev said that's impossible, as explained earlier.

It was a few years ago. I don't remember the person's name off the top of my head. I DO remember there was a debate that if the solenoids weren't run through a PWM that they would overheat and fail. In order to test it the person took a solenoid and hooked it up to power to activate it overnight. It worked fine and there was no "obvious" damage to the solenoid proving that they can handle being activated for long periods of time.


It's POSSIBLE for a 604 to shift acceptably with just switches, but that's a crapshoot. What if it doesn't? what if you do the switches and it binds/flares? You either buy/build a controller with accurate timing and adjustable delay settings, or you go in there and open the can of worms where you spend dozens if not hundreds of hours pulling it, drilling orifices in tiny increments, coming up with custom return springs, regulator changes, putting it back together, putting it back in the car, testing it, etc etc. People have been doing that with the 413 for 2+ decades and there are still only a handful of people on this forum who can get it to work right. That's basically the game you'd have to play to get a 604 to work right with switches.

You could be right, but for the most part it's never been tried to my knowledge! This is still theory.

[RoadWarrior222]

It's a van, you need 500 ponies, plus a wolfs head nailed to your grille to scare the F**K out of them.

[Aries_Turbo]

1. the 604 can handle power. lots of power. ONLY if you make it shift faster though.

2. the 604 can be shifted with switches. however the timing of the shifts isnt right with the flick of a switch as fluid passages have to fill and others have to drain and that takes time and has to be controlled via a computer to get it smooth or firm without flare or bind.

Racerstev mentioned that you could possibly have to shift via switches with power but pressure transducers/switches would have to be installed on various circuits to see when a passage was draining or filling and apply some simple controls to get the shift to be correct. this would require lots of tinkering and experimentation and there is a possibility that it wouldnt work correct at all.

3. the AEM FIC can control timing though no one has hooked it up to the 3.0L distributor to see if it is compatible with the stock stuff enough to work. Adam (Vigo) has a FIC and a 3.0L car but he is being a poo poo head and wont test it for me!!!!!! grrrrrr!!!!! :) if he does this and it works, it is a great way to go though it has limitations.... 25psi boost max on the unit, wont raise the limiter (see #4 below) but its less than 400$ and can control huge injectors and retard timing and stuff.

4. the 88-91 cars ecus are hacked enough to do a good enough base 1 bar (no boost controlled by the ECU) calibration to use a RRR but timing control still would have to come from another source... AEM FIC? (see above)....maybe even a MSD boost timing master? the rev limiter can be removed or raised on these 88-91 computers too.

5. there are still fluid passages and orifices in the 604 that can be modified to get it to shift faster when hooked to the stock TCU.... however, since the TCU has adaptive programming, it will, over time, modify the shift timing and solenoid application to make the shifts smooth as stock again which burns stuff up. its too smooth. it needs to be quick and firm to handle power.

Brian

[Vigo]

Im starting to come around on it (fic 3.0). I hate to see a running car sitting there completely ignored. I just need to drag enough of my junk harnesses up here to make a patch harness for the fic so i can just plug it in without cutting the car. It'll be good practice for my 3.3 car since thats how i want to install it on that one.

[Aries_Turbo]

thats the spirit! :)

[Ondonti]

You can always just clear memory constantly on the TCM. Not sure how fast it learns.

Programming sounds so much easier. If it would be super annoying to program, then its gotta be life threatening to take care of everything mechanically.
I have been sorta interested if AEM transmission control can deal with the a604. Rather go with Rob's stuff.

[Aries_Turbo]

hopefully rob has good/quick success with hacking the TCM code.

im sure its as easy to recalibrate as the ECU.

Brian

[87turbodance]

I'd love to see a hacked TCM. One of the early ones would be nice because they can run standalone without a SBEC.

[RoadWarrior222]

Well that's kinda like saying that if we want to build a private aircraft capable of delivering a nuke on china we should start with a Wright Flyer because sticks and string are easy to come by.

[Ondonti]

Don't really know what the TCM would need from SBEC except a few signals that you don't need the SBEC to get...

[87turbodance]

Later TCM gets data over a type of CAN bus (CCD bus) from the SBEC. Early TCM get data directly from sensors (TPS and distributor low data rate). When I say early TCM, I mean only the first few years.

Some form of implementation of torque management would help longevity too.

[Reaper1]

To my knowledge, until the TCM got integrated into the SBEC the TCM was still stand-alone. Yes, it did communicate with the SBEC over the CCD, but that was only for the torque management and later the SDS.

[turbovanman²]

To my knowledge, until the TCM got integrated into the SBEC the TCM was still stand-alone. Yes, it did communicate with the SBEC over the CCD, but that was only for the torque management and later the SDS.

It was I believe until around 97, then the controllers became one, like everyone else.