GM automatic

[ohiorob]

when GM jumped on the band wagon in sport compact racing thay ran with a automatic that seamed to hold up well. anyone know anything about them, all I know is that it's a 4 speed and came in some cadillacs. If this turns out to be a great starting point for a tranny I may try to adapt it to my car.

[dodgeshadowchik]

Here's a link that lists the GM FWD Transmissions:
http://www.gmtuners.com/gmtransinfo.htm

If I were to guess the ones you'd be interested in would be the 4T60 or 4T80-E's. Kinda like the Chrysler designations; the 4 = # of gears, the T = Transversely mounted and the "40" "60" or "80" is the strength rating i.e. torque rating. The larger the number, the stronger the transmission.

[ohiorob]

Here's a link that lists the GM FWD Transmissions:
http://www.gmtuners.com/gmtransinfo.htm

If I were to guess the ones you'd be interested in would be the 4T60 or 4T80-E's. Kinda like the Chrysler designations; the 4 = # of gears, the T = Transversely mounted and the "40" "60" or "80" is the strength rating i.e. torque rating. The larger the number, the stronger the transmission.

thanks MB for the info. that's a great place to start.

[turbovanman²]

4T65's and 4T80's are pretty big units, they ran those on the midsize and bigger cars. Electronics would be easy, tons of plug and play controllers these days. You might be on too something, they are pretty strong. 4T40's and 4T60's are probably what you'd need. Interested to see what you dig up Rob, :nod:

[black86glhs]

Being sport compact, i'de say it is a 4t45-e.

[turbovanman²]

Being sport compact, i'de say it is a 4t45-e.

Yeah, that too, lol.

[contraption22]

Check this out.

http://cowan1984.xtreemhost.com/gmtunerhydra-matic_4T65_build_book.pdf

[dodgeshadowchik]

^^

Nice find!

[turbovanman²]

Check this out.

http://cowan1984.xtreemhost.com/gmtunerhydra-matic_4T65_build_book.pdf

Agreed, nice find.

I love GM sometimes, non of this auto learning bs that Dodge has with the A604, :(



An easy and cheap way to shift the 4T65E is with two toggle
switches. The toggle switches need to switch ground to pins
A and B in the pass through connectors. To operate the
transmission turn both switches on. This will put the
transmission in 1st gear. To shift into 2nd gear shut off the
switch to solenoid A off. To shift into 3rd gear shut off the
switch to solenoid B. For 4th gear turn the switch for
solenoid A back on.
SHIFT CONTROLLERS

[black86glhs]

I stand corrected. That is the trans they most likely use. Man that is a stout unit...HEHE.

[ohiorob]

thanks everyone that is exactly what I was looking for. now I got to find a junk tranny and see if this is at all possible. if it's a go I'll be building this over the summer. don't look like a cheep build but it's better than building another gernade.

[turbovanman²]

thanks everyone that is exactly what I was looking for. now I got to find a junk tranny and see if this is at all possible. if it's a go I'll be building this over the summer. don't look like a cheep build but it's better than building another gernade.

Did you blow up your 3 speed?

[ohiorob]

Did you blow up your 3 speed?

no and not planning on it but to keep up with the honda guys I need to run 9.70 or quicker. I don't think the tranny will last at that power level. just look at Brian Slow and Darrell Cox and the time and money they have in there trannys. the a413 is a awesome tranny for how tiny and simple it is but after 600 hp it's a crap shot no matter what you do to it.

[wheming]

The bolt pattern on that 4t45e doesn't happen to be the same as the v8? I guess i wouldn't think so.
I was interested in something similar but for RWD.

[black86glhs]

The bolt pattern on that 4t45e doesn't happen to be the same as the v8? I guess i wouldn't think so.
I was interested in something similar but for RWD.I don't think it will and besides, anything GM that has a T after the first number is a FWD trans.

[Mopar318]

According to the Chrysler student handbook. The T stands for Traceability, whatever that is supposed to mean.

[Vigo]

Why not spend the money on an aftermarket controller and run a mildly upgraded 604? I believe two neons have already put 600+hp (although probably no more torque than you) through them.

They came with 2.4 bellhousings and you dont have to spend $$$$ on custom axles.

[Ondonti]

Not sure how often those boys were going through their transmissions. Bomb is something you don't inspect regularly.

[RoadWarrior222]

I wanna say that you should look at the GM Metric bolt pattern trannies from behind FWD V8s, the starter looks almost in the right place, (Northstars had it up top though) and in particular the "F7" version of the 440T4 (That became the 4T60) which was supposed to be specially strengthened, and came in the '87 to '93 Cadillac Allante... that's just my gut feeling best guess though.

[black86glhs]

4T65 will bolt up to most FWD GM engines except the Ecotec 4 cyl engines, the Nothstars, or the Quad Four engines. With an adapter, they could easily be installed behind an Ecotec engine.

[turbovanman²]

no and not planning on it but to keep up with the honda guys I need to run 9.70 or quicker. I don't think the tranny will last at that power level. just look at Brian Slow and Darrell Cox and the time and money they have in there trannys. the a413 is a awesome tranny for how tiny and simple it is but after 600 hp it's a crap shot no matter what you do to it.

Gotcha.


According to the Chrysler student handbook. The T stands for Traceability, whatever that is supposed to mean.

The T is in the GM transmisions, not Dodge, it stands for "transverse" or in laymans terms, FWD, ;)

[Ondonti]

Still not sure how we are determining that the transmissions are reliable without being torn down constantly. Its not weird for people to toss in a refreshed trans every race event when you have money on the line and backing. No reason to lose a race over small potatoes.
Comparing a multimillion dollar program to a do it yourself program and you might find reliability is not what you expected.

The current DCR transmission does seem to not have problems with a boatload more power then anyone here is making and with more weight. Does that mean you don't have to go through it on a regulator basis? Probably not or Maybe?

[Reaper1]

Most of the FWD GM trannies I've seen go in a "J" shape behind the engine. I don't think that will work well for us.

[black86glhs]

Most of the FWD GM trannies I've seen go in a "J" shape behind the engine. I don't think that will work well for us.Correct. It has the torque converter and pump inline with the crankshaft. A chain transfers to torque back to the clutch/final drive section. This would probably work with a 2.4.

[contraption22]

The current DCR transmission does seem to not have problems with a boatload more power then anyone here is making and with more weight. Does that mean you don't have to go through it on a regulator basis? Probably not or Maybe?

...and some DCR transmissions break while trying to back the car off the trailer...:)

[Vigo]

Probably some of the same hard-parts failures i've experienced with those trannies @140hp. Simon has broken stuff that shouldnt have broken too. Just because someone ran 700hp through one and DIDNT break it would not prove anything when we've already proven there are things that COULD RANDOMLY BREAK completely regardless of power level.

[86Shelby]

Rob, spend some time and take a look at what the Ecotec and Grand Prix GTP guys are doing to those transaxles. I have no clue how some of the posters in the thread expect a 4t45 to hold up to anything close to what your car produces. The 4t65 may be a good start but still requires plenty of mods to stay liveable behind higher hp. At a bare minimum that trans requires a new drive chain, GM's race-spec chain is no longer made but can be picked up used for 1500-2000, the standard fare of HP clutches & steels, input shaft and guarantee to do differential work. Check out ZZP's site to see what they currently offer for upgrades.

[Vigo]

Or, there's always the other option which is limit torque to something that wont break the trans and still go just as fast.

[black86glhs]

Rob, spend some time and take a look at what the Ecotec and Grand Prix GTP guys are doing to those transaxles. I have no clue how some of the posters in the thread expect a 4t45 to hold up to anything close to what your car produces. The 4t65 may be a good start but still requires plenty of mods to stay liveable behind higher hp. At a bare minimum that trans requires a new drive chain, GM's race-spec chain is no longer made but can be picked up used for 1500-2000, the standard fare of HP clutches & steels, input shaft and guarantee to do differential work. Check out ZZP's site to see what they currently offer for upgrades.That is why the modified version he is referring to is good. We aren't talking about stock 4T65-E transmissions. These are modified to handle the added power. The smaller of the larger chains is still available and can handle a good amount of abuse.

[turbovanman²]

Still not sure how we are determining that the transmissions are reliable without being torn down constantly. Its not weird for people to toss in a refreshed trans every race event when you have money on the line and backing. No reason to lose a race over small potatoes.
Comparing a multimillion dollar program to a do it yourself program and you might find reliability is not what you expected.

The current DCR transmission does seem to not have problems with a boatload more power then anyone here is making and with more weight. Does that mean you don't have to go through it on a regulator basis? Probably not or Maybe?

They are still overpriced and are a ticking timebomb.

As for the 4T65, its hard to break behind supercharged 3.8's, they are a stout trans, just look at the article that show's how to build one, makes the A413 look like a Dinky toy, :eyebrows:

[Vigo]

I actually think building the 4t65 will be WAY more expensive if you do all the hard parts upgrades in that PDF file.

I mean, i dont actually know all that much about this.. but it seems like we already know how to get the clutch elements in a 413 to hold ridiculous amounts of power. The problems are the input shaft that breaks with power, the output shaft that breaks for no reason, and the case needs a bunch of reinforcing.. right?

Seems like those 3 things would be cheaper to fix even with custom parts, than the cost of the hard-parts list from that 4t65 build.

Now if people are shredding the teeth off the planetaries or the splines off the shafts that is something i dont know about.. but i do think the problems with the differential gear teeth just have to do with the case.

Im not saying Rob should stick with 413.. but i dont think a 4t65 is going to be cheaper if you actually follow that book.

[turbovanman²]

How much would a new recast A413 case be?

I've broken a planetary, the one no one breaks, lol. Looking at getting a new one made but still, I think the GM trans or other trans is a viable option. For what DCR charges, 8K and they still break, it looks like adapting another trans will be alot cheaper and most likely alot stronger.

[Vigo]

Well 'performance' builds have a ridiculous markup so with that 8k number you are including a lot of markup and high-dollar labor that wouldnt apply if Rob built it himself.

I dunno, there's a lot of variables.. like you say, you've broken stuff that 'shouldnt' break and ive broken stuff that 'shouldnt' break and even if you throw a lot of money at it you might still have stuff breaking for reasons that even a smart guy can't figure out.

But what brent said pretty much covers it:

The current DCR transmission does seem to not have problems with a boatload more power then anyone here is making and with more weight. Does that mean you don't have to go through it on a regulator basis?

Until you know that the GM's *ARENT* going through their trannies as often as the fast dodges are, you might just be dumping money down a hole. Because there is already a way to build the 413 to hold all the power Rob needs and not break on EVERY pass.. but until you know how often both ones are breaking or being removed to check out.. it's hard to say the gm is DEFINITELY better and not just DEFINITELY heavier and more expensive.

[135sohc]

How much would a new recast A413 case be?

Way more than anyone here would ever pay for one... :lol: For the cost of something that large and complex its probably just as cost ineffective but would be stronger to have one CNC'ed from a solid block of billet.

[RoadWarrior222]

I believe stock input shafts have been known to do 7 or 8 passes in the low 10s before breakage, so if you swapped in a new shaft every race day, it'd look reliable too.

However, that's not taking into account any fixes, such as limiting line pressure to 135 psi so harsh engagement of third at full power doesn't shock them to death, or heat or cryo treating of the stock shaft.

[turbovanman²]

Way more than anyone here would ever pay for one... :lol: For the cost of something that large and complex its probably just as cost ineffective but would be stronger to have one CNC'ed from a solid block of billet.

That it was I was getting at, lol.

[black86glhs]

I have yet to hear how long one lasts. I want it straight from someone who has over 600 HP going thru one and races it. I don't care about what someone thinks they read or thought they heard. Too much BS on the internet.

Did some searching and they are using 80 percent stock components. The input and output shafts are changed to 300m steel. The drive chain is the 1in wide unit. Higher capacity third gear.

[Reaper1]

Are they doing anything about the OD? How much power can the OD in the GM's hold? If it's similar to the 41TE (A604), then I think doing all that adapting is just a huge waste of time and energy and the 41TE had been proven to be able to hold the power in the main drive gears. You get a better/stronger case and a better/stronger FD with a LOT of options for gearing! By the time you dump all the money into going with a different manufacturer's transmission, you *could* have one just as strong and reliable for less work and money. The biggest output of $$$ besides the actual transmission would be for a controller, but you're going to have to lay that out regardless of which one you go with if it is an electronic unit.

Having a 413 case made of billet would be expensive for sure. The advantages would be that you could specify the alloy and also beef it up in the areas it needs it. You could also make it so you could use better bearings and such if you really wanted to get into it. I honestly think that a well designed girdle and 300M shafts would do the trick. I don't know that a girdle has ever been tried. I know welded in bracing has, and it's been shown to work well, but I'd almost be willing to put money on it that if the entire case were to be supported better that even less failures would be realized.

[black86glhs]

It is converted to a 3 spd, so no need to worry about overdrive. Trans controllers for these are easy and simple. There is no adaptive crap. It can actually be shifted with 2 toggle switches. Obviously, not for racing, but it is simple.

[turbo2point2]

I honestly think that a well designed girdle and 300M shafts would do the trick. I don't know that a girdle has ever been tried. I know welded in bracing has, and it's been shown to work well, but I'd almost be willing to put money on it that if the entire case were to be supported better that even less failures would be realized.

I have a girdle in the works, I'll post up pics when I get a few minutes.

[Warren Stramer]

I have a girdle in the works, I'll post up pics when I get a few minutes.

Good to hear, I have one designed too. I dont think the case will be the limiting factor.

[turbovanman²]

Good to hear, I have one designed too. I dont think the case will be the limiting factor.

What do you think will be then?

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------


I have a girdle in the works, I'll post up pics when I get a few minutes.

How about now? :eyebrows:

[Reaper1]

It is converted to a 3 spd, so no need to worry about overdrive. Trans controllers for these are easy and simple. There is no adaptive crap. It can actually be shifted with 2 toggle switches. Obviously, not for racing, but it is simple.

OK...no OD, so in that respect it's no better than the A413. The aftermarket controllers for the A604 don't incorporate adaptive controls either that I've seen or read. Maybe Brent knows more than I do on that anymore as I've kinda been out of the A604 thing for a bit. I do know the aftermarket controllers can either shift automatically or with buttons as well. If you take all that into account, building a race ready A604 would be not only cheaper, but easier to do than adapting another company's transmission.


I have a girdle in the works, I'll post up pics when I get a few minutes.


Good to hear, I have one designed too. I dont think the case will be the limiting factor.

Great minds think alike! :thumb:

[RoadWarrior222]

The A604 is an all out electronic tranny, the GM trannies are mostly electrically operated hydraulic trannies, like an A413 with a solenoid valve body in. Mostly I think they work by two solenoids, and the various positions, off-off, on-off, off-on and on-on give the four gears.

[Reaper1]

The A604 works very similar. The solenoids are only pulsed in order to achieve a smooth clutch engagement for soccer moms. It's been tested and proven the A604 can be shifted simply by activating the solenoids by switches.

[RoadWarrior222]

I was under the impression however, that in stock form, it wasn't built to handle to shock loads of doing so, thus "required" the electronic control, to (theoretically) live.

[Reaper1]

Well, you are correct, but we are also talking about a transmission that is to be used behind an engine that is going to be making upwards of 500+hp (or more), so I'm betting the internals won't be in stock form. :thumb:

[black86glhs]

It wouldn't be cheaper if you are going thru 2 or 3 413's versus the 4T65. I'm not bashing the 604 or 413 here. It was just pointing out that the 4T65 are living at as high a power level and higher after the mods. They aren't putting girdles on to try and make them survive.
The number of gears don't matter. The powerglide only has 2 gears but is the tops in the 1/4 mile.

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------


Well, you are correct, but we are also talking about a transmission that is to be used behind an engine that is going to be making upwards of 500+hp (or more), so I'm betting the internals won't be in stock form. :thumb:Then it won't be cheap.

[RoadWarrior222]

Why does it seem like we might be comparing A413s that might have had a couple of tricks and a hundred bucks spent on them to GM or other trannies that had several bagfuls applied with several thousand bucks.

[black86glhs]

Why does it seem like we might be comparing A413s that might have had a couple of tricks and a hundred bucks spent on them to GM or other trannies that had several bagfuls applied with several thousand bucks.This is a full race prep 4T65, not like the adjustments on the 413's. A 413 doesn't live long over 500 HP even with the cheaper adjustments. The race prepped 413's are not just turned up line pressure and an extra fiber/steel, either.

[turbovanman²]

The A604 works very similar. The solenoids are only pulsed in order to achieve a smooth clutch engagement for soccer moms. It's been tested and proven the A604 can be shifted simply by activating the solenoids by switches.

No, you can't turn it on with simple switch's, if you do that, the shifts will overlap and then you'll get 2 gears at once for a split 2nd, and that's most of the issue with shifting this tranny, retarded really, :(

[Vigo]

I really wanna see these girdles. After the internal bracing for the pinion bearing, i think it's the next big step.

[Vigo]

there's some 4t60 vs 604 stuff in here so this seems relevant.

I just tried to explain why a 4t60 can run on switches and a 604 needs an actual computer, starting at post #30.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63199-Turbo-van-parts-list!&p=876567#post876567

[RoadWarrior222]

This is a full race prep 4T65, not like the adjustments on the 413's. A 413 doesn't live long over 500 HP even with the cheaper adjustments. The race prepped 413's are not just turned up line pressure and an extra fiber/steel, either.Yah, but we're calling out the A413 for weak parts that are upgraded to 300M material on a built 4T65, so, what's wrong with putting them bits in an A413 is all...

[turbo2point2]

Not done obviously, but this is where it sits...

Have a few more parts to machine to continue.

[RoadWarrior222]

Whew, that looks like something you'd use to convert your cummins HD truck to FWD :D

I'm curious as to what all is under that side case there, and if you've got any weak rejects, (Kinda been tossing around the idea of an overdrive)

[Warren Stramer]

Not done obviously, but this is where it sits...

Have a few more parts to machine to continue.

Nice work Brian. That is similar to what I'm doing, but I'm going to machine a billet back diff cover that ties the bottom plate and a beam from the top of the diff cover to the upper two bolt bosses on the bell hsg.
Mine wont be done till spring, your way ahead of me.
I still have not taken the time to contact Mark Williams, have you?

[turbo2point2]

Nice work Brian. That is similar to what I'm doing, but I'm going to machine a billet back diff cover that ties the bottom plate and a beam from the top of the diff cover to the upper two bolt bosses on the bell hsg.
Mine wont be done till spring, your way ahead of me.
I still have not taken the time to contact Mark Williams, have you?

This design will also use the billet diff cover that Lengel is making. It will be fastened to the pan rail girdle and also at the top with a strut to the bell housing as you mentioned. I am in the process of making the upper strut.

I haven't tried MW yet either.

[turbovanman²]

Nice work. One question though, what's with the transfer gear cover? I don't think anyone have damaged that area or do you have some custom gears under there? :eyebrows:

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah that's what I was curious about, transfer gears and the cover or case over them...

(Every time I decide to say transfer gear, everyone else in the thread says "DYM side gears?" and vice versa)

[black86glhs]

Yah, but we're calling out the A413 for weak parts that are upgraded to 300M material on a built 4T65, so, what's wrong with putting them bits in an A413 is all...Didn't say there wasn't. However, they raise the price of the 413. Which was one of the arguments against the 4T65. My point has been if you build both to handle 600-1000hp like described in the 4T65 buildup, the 413 isn't just a hopped up stock trans. Look at the awesome work Slowe and Lengel have done in the previous posts. Those pieces aren't going to be cheap (as in $100-$150 for them). The 4T65 doesn't need them, as the case is stronger. So you save money there and put it inside the trans.
Now after you do it all to both transmissions, which one is stronger and last longer......who knows. I agree that for the money the 413 is cheaper to build to hold more power in stock form (read that as no billet parts or new shafts).

[Reaper1]

there's some 4t60 vs 604 stuff in here so this seems relevant.

I just tried to explain why a 4t60 can run on switches and a 604 needs an actual computer, starting at post #30.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63199-Turbo-van-parts-list!&p=876567#post876567

Replied in other thread. :thumb:


Not done obviously, but this is where it sits...

Have a few more parts to machine to continue.

NICE!! Is that transfer gear cover meant for the custom gears you had, or new ones? Also, does it incorporate bearings/races on the outside of the gears for added support?

It also looks like you are using the parking pawl teeth to do some sort of speed sensing if I remember the internals of the 413 correctly. Am I right?

[turbovanman²]

Didn't say there wasn't. However, they raise the price of the 413. Which was one of the arguments against the 4T65. My point has been if you build both to handle 600-1000hp like described in the 4T65 buildup, the 413 isn't just a hopped up stock trans. Look at the awesome work Slowe and Lengel have done in the previous posts. Those pieces aren't going to be cheap (as in $100-$150 for them). The 4T65 doesn't need them, as the case is stronger. So you save money there and put it inside the trans.
Now after you do it all to both transmissions, which one is stronger and last longer......who knows. I agree that for the money the 413 is cheaper to build to hold more power in stock form (read that as no billet parts or new shafts).

I doubt those billet case pieces are $100-$150, I would guess more like $500+.

We definately need some stronger internals, which I am trying to address on my own-cheaper, lol, DCR has and Brian is also looking at stuff, and the case is the next step but it seems not many have broken a case.

[turbo2point2]

NICE!! Is that transfer gear cover meant for the custom gears you had, or new ones? Also, does it incorporate bearings/races on the outside of the gears for added support?

It also looks like you are using the parking pawl teeth to do some sort of speed sensing if I remember the internals of the 413 correctly. Am I right?

The transfer gear cover does incorporate bearings to help keep everything in line. The gears are straight cut one-off pieces. The sensor you see is used to datalog pinion speed/ provide signal for the torque management.

[RoadWarrior222]

According to this FS post a DCR stage 5 tranny can hold 1400HP ...

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63271-Possibly-one-of-the-baddest-GLH-s-out-there

So if you just want a plug and play $8000 tranny with a free Omni thrown in, there ya go :D

[turbovanman²]

According to this FS post a DCR stage 5 tranny can hold 1400HP ...

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63271-Possibly-one-of-the-baddest-GLH-s-out-there

So if you just want a plug and play $8000 tranny with a free Omni thrown in, there ya go :D

He already fixed it once, lol.

[black86glhs]

I doubt those billet case pieces are $100-$150, I would guess more like $500+.

We definately need some stronger internals, which I am trying to address on my own-cheaper, lol, DCR has and Brian is also looking at stuff, and the case is the next step but it seems not many have broken a case.I thought the case has been a problem on the higher HP cars? No, I'm not getting the 5 speed cases mixed up with the auto ones. If not, then it is stronger than I thought. If that is the case.....HEHEHE.....then the 413 would be a cheaper build for racing apps.

[turbovanman²]

I thought the case has been a problem on the higher HP cars? No, I'm not getting the 5 speed cases mixed up with the auto ones. If not, then it is stronger than I thought. If that is the case.....HEHEHE.....then the 413 would be a cheaper build for racing apps.

It probably is, but the only 2 broken cases I know of are me and Brian. I have heard of others but not sure of what power level and where they broke it. I think DCR had issues but all I seem to remember was him breaking internals.

[Vigo]

The 4T65 doesn't need them, as the case is stronger.

The 413 case is breaking because of the ring and pinion gears spreading.. The 4t65 doesnt even have a ring and pinion per se. All the forces going into the diff are just rotating it from the side so it doesnt create the spreading force of the 413 diff.

It's probably an inherently stronger design but it doesn't have to do with the case being stronger.

[Pat]

Does anyone know the details of the 413 that Stephane ran in his Charger? I don't recall hearing about transmission issues with that car in the year or two he ran in the Hot Rod class.

[Warren Stramer]

Does anyone know the details of the 413 that Stephane ran in his Charger? I don't recall hearing about transmission issues with that car in the year or two he ran in the Hot Rod class.

I talked to him at length about his trans back in 06, he said after spending about $25,000 on it, it was finally holding up without breaking!...........yes you read right $25,000 is what he told me he had in the trans.
And I doubt that would surprise Brian one bit:wow1:

On every video I have of Stephanes Charger, I notice he never applied all the power untill about the 60ft. mark, just past that distance you can hear the engine just suddenly "turn on". He was using stock axles, Saginaws from wrecking yards, I picked his brain goood when I had the chance.
He also told me in Topeka (and he was begging me to try it) that he would launch in Second gear, let it roll out a ways, then put it back into first, and go up thru the gears. Ive never yet tried it. He swore it was a big help on the 60's, but I couldnt verify that.

[turbovanman²]

I talked to him at length about his trans back in 06, he said after spending about $25,000 on it, it was finally holding up without breaking!...........yes you read right $25,000 is what he told me he had in the trans.
And I doubt that would surprise Brian one bit:wow1:

On every video I have of Stephanes Charger, I notice he never applied all the power untill about the 60ft. mark, just past that distance you can hear the engine just suddenly "turn on". He was using stock axles, Saginaws from wrecking yards, I picked his brain goood when I had the chance.
He also told me in Topeka (and he was begging me to try it) that he would launch in Second gear, let it roll out a ways, then put it back into first, and go up thru the gears. Ive never yet tried it. He swore it was a big help on the 60's, but I couldnt verify that.

I always wondered that myself, I figured he was saving his axles too.

I've listened to the in car Topeka vid many times, I don't see/hear him starting off in 2nd then dropping to 1st?

[Vigo]

On every video I have of Stephanes Charger, I notice he never applied all the power untill about the 60ft. mark, just past that distance you can hear the engine just suddenly "turn on". He was using stock axles, Saginaws from wrecking yards, I picked his brain goood when I had the chance.
He also told me in Topeka (and he was begging me to try it) that he would launch in Second gear, let it roll out a ways, then put it back into first, and go up thru the gears. Ive never yet tried it. He swore it was a big help on the 60's, but I couldnt verify that.

datalog pinion speed/ provide signal for the torque management.
sounds like

there's always the other option which is limit torque to something that wont break the trans and still go just as fast.

Hmmmmmmm. :p 2 out of 2 8-second builders agree, with a mouthy junk builder (me) thrown in for good measure.

And on that note, look at this thing launch soft on drag radials and haul major ---. That's exactly what im talking about. Of course rwd is a different ball game but the point is limiting power on launch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1N7hDUVCz4&feature=player_detailpage#t=59s

[Warren Stramer]

I've listened to the in car Topeka vid many times, I don't see/hear him starting off in 2nd then dropping to 1st?

I agree, Just repeating what he told me. I dont know how he was limiting power on launch, he did not volunteer that info, but you can sure hear the engine change.

[turbovanman²]

I agree, Just repeating what he told me. I dont know how he was limiting power on launch, he did not volunteer that info, but you can sure hear the engine change.

I think his turbo was so big, it wouldn't spool right away, lol.

Watched it again, I can't tell, lol.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4WFmIl8w98

[turbo2point2]

I talked to him at length about his trans back in 06, he said after spending about $25,000 on it, it was finally holding up without breaking!...........yes you read right $25,000 is what he told me he had in the trans.
And I doubt that would surprise Brian one bit:wow1:

On every video I have of Stephanes Charger, I notice he never applied all the power untill about the 60ft. mark, just past that distance you can hear the engine just suddenly "turn on". He was using stock axles, Saginaws from wrecking yards, I picked his brain goood when I had the chance.
He also told me in Topeka (and he was begging me to try it) that he would launch in Second gear, let it roll out a ways, then put it back into first, and go up thru the gears. Ive never yet tried it. He swore it was a big help on the 60's, but I couldnt verify that.

You're right Warren, I'm not surprised at that number. He was doing some pretty neat stuff before anyone else. The video kinda does sound like he leaves in 2nd and downshifts to 1st. The big jump in rpm after the launch suggests it.

[RoadWarrior222]

Seems like the only point to that would be to spool the turbo, since he had to be close to maxing out 1st even launching in 2nd by 60ft.

[Vigo]

I dont think that was a 2-1 downshift. I think Simon is right :p

Look at the gauges. The big gauge zip-tied to the center leg of the M is a pressure gauge. If you compare that gauge to the rpm rise of the engine, and the engine cutting at the end of the run, you can infer that it has to be either the boost gauge or the pressure in the exhaust manifold. I think it's the boost gauge. In order for it to be an exhaust pressure gauge he'd have to be running a better than 1-1 ratio of exhaust psi to boost psi.

If it is a boost gauge, the reason the car leaves soft is because it's making <5psi at the line and just launching off a really high stall, about 5200 rpm when he starts to roll. Boost goes to low 20s in 1st and climbs to ~35 in 3rd gear.

The gauge actually shows no boost when it starts to roll, but i dont trust the accuracy of a 100psi gauge on the extreme low end (would you use it to set your slicks?). It SOUNDS like it's making some boost when its leaves. It doesnt sound like a lot but ~5 psi @ 5200 rpm with that kind of setup in a ~1800 lb car.. is still a lot of power to roll out with. Take a badass motor, rev it up to a ~5000 rpm launch limiter making 5psi with anti lag and dump the clutch in a super-lightened l-body? That's still a hard launch, if you think about it that way (just an anology).. Ubmbass recently ran high 11s in a heavier car with only 10psi TOTAL.

I dunno what his et was on that run. Just because he isnt leaving with much boost there doenst mean he didnt on his fastest runs. Too little info to go off of.

But the point remains that it launched without massive torque. And furthermore, it never made peak boost at peak torque rpm, so the actual maximum torque to cause the ring and pinion to spread was probably relatively lower than it is in some of our other fast members' cars. In that video, Stephane's car didnt even show 20 psi until 7500 rpm, WELL PAST the engine's natural peak torque rpm.. So if Rob, Warren, Brian, fast 413 guys et al are launching with more boost at a lower stall (pure assumption on my part, sorry), they are putting A LOT more spreading force on the r&p..

[turbovanman²]

He ran an 8.03, :faint: :hail:

[Ondonti]

I am not saying anyone needs to buy a DC.R trans, I am saying the one that is in the Red Sled is fine. Its not uncommon to have better parts in your promotional vehicle then what you have on the shelf. I do know for a fact that list price means nothing. If someone likes you or feels like being nice, you might get all the good stuff for small money.

I remember that Dean was breaking OEM input shafts almost instantly and even after heat treating them. He tried his best and gave up on stock.

One concern I have with the a604 is the input shaft, but that might not be an issue with a soft but still effective launch.

[Warren Stramer]

I remember that Dean was breaking OEM input shafts almost instantly and even after heat treating them. He tried his best and gave up on stock.

I know Dean, Brian, and Rob were breaking input shafts, but (knock on wood) I've never broke one. The only thing Ive ever done to mine is change out transfer gears. I think Ive been lucky cause I dont run crazy high line pressures, and mostly because I run a 'loose' convertor.
I give up some ET, and MPH because of it, but its WAY better than fixing the trans. every 10 runs.
Next season I will probably have nothing BUT trans breakage:eek:

Ive never tried the 2-1-2-3 shift cause with my shifter I would probably hit neutral. I think I will try a second gear launch sometime just for the fun of it.

[turbovanman²]

Ive never tried the 2-1-2-3 shift cause with my shifter I would probably hit neutral. I think I will try a second gear launch sometime just for the fun of it.

Are you running a RMVB? What's the deal with your shifter? :eyebrows:

[RoadWarrior222]

I think that's what he's saying, because if he's too exited going 2-1 he might miss and hit neutral, whereas with normal pattern, you hit the stop.

[black86glhs]

If he was too excited, that would be even better!!

[Warren Stramer]

I think that's what he's saying, because if he's too exited going 2-1 he might miss and hit neutral, whereas with normal pattern, you hit the stop.

Exactly, looking at the shifter you will see why. Sure I could do it, just never got around to trying it yet.

Sorry Rob for getting off topic:o

[turbovanman²]

Ok. Nice shifter, :eyebrows:


I think that's what he's saying, because if he's too exited going 2-1 he might miss and hit neutral, whereas with normal pattern, you hit the stop.

There is no stop with the normal shifter except for reverse.

[RoadWarrior222]

Orly? What do you call it when it's yanked all the way down to the bottom and won't move any more then?

[turbovanman²]

Orly? What do you call it when it's yanked all the way down to the bottom and won't move any more then?

Yeah, so how is that a bad thing?

[RoadWarrior222]

:banghead:

Anyone got a universal translator handy?

[Vigo]

I think what RW is saying is on a normal pattern shifter you cant go 'past' 1st. It just stops.

[turbovanman²]

I think what RW is saying is on a normal pattern shifter you cant go 'past' 1st. It just stops.

Well durr, I don't even know why he brought it up? :confused:

[ohiorob]

thanks everyone for your input. the GM tranny is stout from the get go. the balk, weight, got to be adapted and we don't know if the starter will be in a good location makes it a last resort. I'm still going to pick one up from the junk yard when he gets a core tranny in, just to see if it can be done.
I do have a 604 that will bolt to my motor but don't know if it's any stronger then the 3 speed.

[Rampage16V]

Your right on the money with that one Warren. Its not so much the power and weight as it is the shift shock. of running the high line pressure and tight converter. After I put a Danoto input shaft in never had any problems though.


I know Dean, Brian, and Rob were breaking input shafts, but (knock on wood) I've never broke one. The only thing Ive ever done to mine is change out transfer gears. I think Ive been lucky cause I dont run crazy high line pressures, and mostly because I run a 'loose' convertor.
I give up some ET, and MPH because of it, but its WAY better than fixing the trans. every 10 runs.
Next season I will probably have nothing BUT trans breakage:eek:

Ive never tried the 2-1-2-3 shift cause with my shifter I would probably hit neutral. I think I will try a second gear launch sometime just for the fun of it.

[Shadow]

thanks everyone for your input. the GM tranny is stout from the get go. the balk, weight, got to be adapted and we don't know if the starter will be in a good location makes it a last resort. I'm still going to pick one up from the junk yard when he gets a core tranny in, just to see if it can be done.
I do have a 604 that will bolt to my motor but don't know if it's any stronger then the 3 speed.

I believe the whole reason Steve was looking into the 604/T41 is Because it has a way beefier diff section/case And much more desirable FD ratios. He was at the point where he was breaking the 413 case more than anything else IMS.

[turbovanman²]

Your right on the money with that one Warren. Its not so much the power and weight as it is the shift shock. of running the high line pressure and tight converter. After I put a Danoto input shaft in never had any problems though.

I know the 1-2 shift is probably the worst one, I whimis? sic, everytime I do a run at the track, lol.

Knock on wood, I haven't bugger an input shaft yet.

[ohiorob]

I believe the whole reason Steve was looking into the 604/T41 is Because it has a way beefier diff section/case And much more desirable FD ratios. He was at the point where he was breaking the 413 case more than anything else IMS.

Damn i must be getting old. forgot all about Steve. he did alot of work to the valve body and other things that I don't remember to the t41. I think the biggest set back was the computer control. to bad he got out of drag racing . I need to give him a call

[Shadow]

Damn i must be getting old. forgot all about Steve. he did alot of work to the valve body and other things that I don't remember to the t41. I think the biggest set back was the computer control. to bad he got out of drag racing . I need to give him a call

Exactly. I followed his progress very closely and I have the T41 he built with Pelequin posi :) Since the bro's 2.4l S/C project has been on hold, I've been hoping someone will perfect a controller by the time we get back on it. (fingers x'd)

[Warren Stramer]

Exactly. I followed his progress very closely and I have the T41 he built with Pelequin posi :) Since the bro's 2.4l S/C project has been on hold, I've been hoping someone will perfect a controller by the time we get back on it. (fingers x'd)

Sounds like a good side job for my son Lyle. He is an electrical engineer for John Deere. His specialty is writing code for elec/hydralic controls type of thing.
I didnt know the T41 controls were THAT complicated. I'll run it by him. Maybe we could come up with a plug and play shift box with manual or programmable shift schedule.
I wonder how much interest there would be in such a controller, If the T41 is that much stronger, and four forward gears, it could be the next step up.
The only expierience I have with them is that I have fixed or replaced a bunch of em. And they are heavy compared to the 413.

[turbovanman²]

Sounds like a good side job for my son Lyle. He is an electrical engineer for John Deere. His specialty is writing code for elec/hydralic controls type of thing.
I didnt know the T41 controls were THAT complicated. I'll run it by him. Maybe we could come up with a plug and play shift box with manual or programmable shift schedule.
I wonder how much interest there would be in such a controller, If the T41 is that much stronger, and four forward gears, it could be the next step up.
The only expierience I have with them is that I have fixed or replaced a bunch of em. And they are heavy compared to the 413.

There is alot of interest, we have multiple threads about it, I am trying to get a case out of Mexico, without being raped, :nod:

Rob is trying to get the code broken but not sure how much further he has got, wouldn't hurt to have your son look at it.

[Warren Stramer]

There is alot of interest, we have multiple threads about it, I am trying to get a case out of Mexico, without being raped, :nod:

Rob is trying to get the code broken but not sure how much further he has got, wouldn't hurt to have your son look at it.

Just got off the phone with my son. He is interested, We will discuss it at length when he is home for Christmas. We could use just about any old Chrysler for a test mule.
Did Steve Lockett (I think that is his name) ever figure out how to manually shift one? or was that the hurdle that stopped him?

[turbovanman²]

Just got off the phone with my son. He is interested, We will discuss it at length when he is home for Christmas. We could use just about any old Chrysler for a test mule.
Did Steve Lockett (I think that is his name) ever figure out how to manually shift one? or was that the hurdle that stopped him?

Not sure, someone did post up a link for the Neon forum earlier with his info, but if someone knows him, would be better to quickly chat with him.

[Shadow]

Sounds like a good side job for my son Lyle. He is an electrical engineer for John Deere. His specialty is writing code for elec/hydralic controls type of thing.
I didnt know the T41 controls were THAT complicated. I'll run it by him. Maybe we could come up with a plug and play shift box with manual or programmable shift schedule.
I wonder how much interest there would be in such a controller, If the T41 is that much stronger, and four forward gears, it could be the next step up.
The only expierience I have with them is that I have fixed or replaced a bunch of em. And they are heavy compared to the 413.

Pretty sure Steve had one shifting off switches and relays (right off the shifter) at one point. The main issue seems to be Chrysler went with a very heavy current solonoid set-up. IF they would have gone with something much lighter, we could have controlled this puppy with my Bros AEM EMS.

So, the solonoids are high current (30 amp relay, 2 Ohm) if memory serves, And the current is supplied by %. I think it comes on strong on the shift and then drops to 60%?

I have a lot of notes on this stuff, would just have to look it up.

---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------


Just got off the phone with my son. He is interested, We will discuss it at length when he is home for Christmas. We could use just about any old Chrysler for a test mule.
Did Steve Lockett (I think that is his name) ever figure out how to manually shift one? or was that the hurdle that stopped him?

I think the big issue with manual shifting was the time delay from shifter to actual shift and not being able to adjust it.

There IS a controller available for this unit Right now and it is supposed to work pretty well. 750.00 I think. The one issue, which I never heard wether it got sorted out, was the controller would get hot and start screwing up. The company was working with Steve to solve this.

Warren, Steve took one of these from a J-yard that had something like 60-80000miles on it and ran some low 10's (10.1-10.2-10.3) Just to see how it would do without any mods. (might have modded the VB?)

We were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time and bought his own trans with Pelequin diff and billet TC. When he went back out on the 3 speed and looked at his data logs, he couldn't get over how much faster the car was on the 41T (3:90 FD I believe) Last I heard he was going to build another one, but Pelequin wanted at least 10 pre-orders to make the posi again! Then I heard nothing :(

[Shadow]

My worse case scenario (in leu of no one figuring anything else out) was to get some really high Q Solid state relays and either try to have a manual electronic shifter or preferably an interface to the AEM which already has a really nice stand-alone trans managment in it. Only problem is the AEM is very low current.

I was actually thinking about dissmantling a factory controller, tracing back the relays to the low current feed and simply conecting the AEM there. Sounds easy, could be nuts though :(

[Rampage16V]

Steve had an aftermarket controller for his trans. I know there is also a mega squirt drived trans controller out now too

[Shadow]

Steve had an aftermarket controller for his trans. I know there is also a mega squirt drived trans controller out now too

Correct, I'll get the name of that controller for reference. Although in 05 he ran one of these straight of solonoids switch activated by manual shifter. Had a major 1-2 flare problem that he later cleaned up with VB mods.

I never heard wether anyone finished the MS version? Never heard any results.......

Diff comparo, guess which ones the 4 spd :)

[turbovanman²]

The one on the right is the A604 I believe.

As for shifting with toggles, wonder how he got around the overlap?

A 4 speed would make my van like a new vehicle, lol.

[Warren Stramer]

While I dont remember one, Was there ever a 4 speed that bolted up to a 2.2-2.5 block, bell hsg. wise? If so, what was the application?

[turbovanman²]

While I dont remember one, Was there ever a 4 speed that bolted up to a 2.2-2.5 block, bell hsg. wise? If so, what was the application?

Yes, Mexico, hence my statement earlier about getting one with paying an arm and a leg.

[Warren Stramer]

Yes, Mexico, hence my statement earlier about getting one with paying an arm and a leg.
Oh, ok I was wondering what you were talking about. Mexican only huh?

[Aries_Turbo]

Just got off the phone with my son. He is interested, We will discuss it at length when he is home for Christmas. We could use just about any old Chrysler for a test mule.
Did Steve Lockett (I think that is his name) ever figure out how to manually shift one? or was that the hurdle that stopped him?

Vigo and StraX22 were pulling controllers out of cars and sucking off the eeprom data and Rob Lloyd was beginning to disassemble it. I dont know the status of that project.

Maybe have all of them collaborate would help things along quicker.

Rob Lloyd wanted to use the factory controller and reprogram the shifts so that they were alot quicker. The factory controller is the best solution IMO because it maintains all the adaptive shift control so that it adjusts to minor transmission wear over time to keep things consistent.

Steve used an aftermarket PCS controller for the 41TE. It worked well but it was having some overheat problems.

It does not have the adaptive programming like the factory controller. nor does the megasquirt version.


Pretty sure Steve had one shifting off switches and relays (right off the shifter) at one point. The main issue seems to be Chrysler went with a very heavy current solonoid set-up. IF they would have gone with something much lighter, we could have controlled this puppy with my Bros AEM EMS.

I think the big issue with manual shifting was the time delay from shifter to actual shift and not being able to adjust it.

There IS a controller available for this unit Right now and it is supposed to work pretty well. 750.00 I think. The one issue, which I never heard wether it got sorted out, was the controller would get hot and start screwing up. The company was working with Steve to solve this.

Warren, Steve took one of these from a J-yard that had something like 60-80000miles on it and ran some low 10's (10.1-10.2-10.3) Just to see how it would do without any mods. (might have modded the VB?)

there was some testing of a trans with switches and relays, even a breakout box is available to test the function of the solenoids/trans for a repair shop to see if it is at least working but its not ideal for an on the street setup.

it flares or binds like crazy because the 41te does clutch to clutch handoffs of gear changes. one hydraulic circuit is filling while another is draining and all that stuff really needs to be controlled by a computer.

Steve did mention that some pressure transducers could possibly be put on all the fluid circuits and some simple logic applied to eliminate flare and bind but changes in RPM is going to mess things up. i mean if you only shifted at redline all the time, you might be able to use a pressure transducer on the fluid circuits and figure out at what pressure one circuit is draining, another could start to fill for a smooth clutch to clutch shift but i think you will always be chasing your tail.

For the JY trans, steve upped the line pressure a bit (which required a recalibration of the PCS controller...) and possibly drilled some fluid passages larger. I know on the later iterations of the trans, he drilled out a bunch of passages in the valve body to increase the speed of the fluid making it to the actuators.


My worse case scenario (in leu of no one figuring anything else out) was to get some really high Q Solid state relays and either try to have a manual electronic shifter or preferably an interface to the AEM which already has a really nice stand-alone trans managment in it. Only problem is the AEM is very low current.

I was actually thinking about dissmantling a factory controller, tracing back the relays to the low current feed and simply conecting the AEM there. Sounds easy, could be nuts though :(

you will need to have the AEM mimic the factory shift logic.... its totally different than most everything else out there. Rob Lloyd found alot of the shift logic flowcharts on patent sites and was using them to try to trace down through the code.


Steve had an aftermarket controller for his trans. I know there is also a mega squirt drived trans controller out now too

correct. tjabo on neons.org has steves old van that is currently being controlled by the PCS box... he was trying to sell the van but i dont know what happened to that.

as stated above, neither the PCS box nor the MS unit have the adaptive coding built in to adjust the shifts based on a shift speed target. you will have to retime the shifts over the life of the trans. you may get shifts that were once tight but now flare or ones that were smooth and now bind as things wear. thats why i want to wait till rob gets into the factory controller as i dont want to have to monkey with the shift timing all the time. im assuming that temps will effect shifts too which the factory controller will account for.

Una was running the MS version hooked to a 41te in his omni.


Correct, I'll get the name of that controller for reference. Although in 05 he ran one of these straight of solonoids switch activated by manual shifter. Had a major 1-2 flare problem that he later cleaned up with VB mods.

I never heard wether anyone finished the MS version? Never heard any results.......

Diff comparo, guess which ones the 4 spd :)

did he really get it to work with the valve body mods? i thought it would always flare.

yeah the MS version works but i dont think it has any adaptive coding.

here are some links to the state of 41te control.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=307286&hilit=41te

http://msgpio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/41te/41te_wiring.html

the other issue with the 41TE is 4th gear.

boost + 4th gear = broken 4th gear.

the shaft for 4th gear and the clutch count/basket are a bit low for insane power. that stuff could be made from stronger steel though i bet.

i think ondonti is concerned with the input shaft too as its the same dia as the 413 but it think its longer so there is more of a spring effect so it may be able to survive better. again, a part that can be modified.

i think the 41te diff is really close to the 5-speed diff too.

i want to use a 41te with a hacked factory controller to add AWD easily to my k car.

[turbovanman²]

Oh, ok I was wondering what you were talking about. Mexican only huh?

Yep, pretty crazy how a poorish country gets a 4speed auto yet the mass's that really need it get stuck with the 3 speed, :(

[Shadow]

did he really get it to work with the valve body mods? i thought it would always flare.




the other issue with the 41TE is 4th gear.

boost + 4th gear = broken 4th gear.



He had modded the VB to the point that the flares were pretty well gone AFAIK. The trans he was using had the weaker drum and he increased the flow through the VB till the drum broke, then upgraded the drum and decreased the VB flow mod a hair. This is the state the trans is in now.

Also, pretty sure he bobo'd into 4th at full power a couple times and was surprised that it Didn't break 4th.

---------- Post added 12-19-2011 at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was 12-18-2011 at 11:58 PM ----------


Oh, ok I was wondering what you were talking about. Mexican only huh?

The 2.4l 41te Will bolt to a 2.2, just like a T850 will. Only 1 mount hole is off and really not a big deal to make a plate for.

BTW, Are we jacking Robs thread to $hit? If so, maybe this should be moved so Robs thread can remain a GM based disscusion? Rob?

[turbovanman²]

The 2.4l 41te Will bolt to a 2.2, just like a T850 will. Only 1 mount hole is off and really not a big deal to make a plate for.


Puts the starter up front and for some of us, that won't work.

[black86glhs]

Puts the starter up front and for some of us, that won't work.Put a hand crank on it then......Geez, do I have to think of everything. LOL:D

[turbovanman²]

here are some links to the state of 41te control.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=307286&hilit=41te

http://msgpio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/41te/41te_wiring.html
.

Someone needs to condense all that info, lol, there is something like 50+ pages to read, :banghead:


Found a neat calculator to see what your rpm is, using 4th drops about 1000 rpm, schweet.

http://vexer.com/automotive-tools/speed-rpm-calculator


Gear 41te Ratio
1 2.84
2 1.57
3 1.00
4 (OD) 0.69
Reverse 2.21

The axle ratio can be a number of values. These most commonly relate to the accompanying engine size:

Engine Displacement Axle Ratio
2.0L 4.10
2.4L 3.90
3.0L/3.3L 3.60
3.8L 3.45

[ohiorob]

He had modded the VB to the point that the flares were pretty well gone AFAIK. The trans he was using had the weaker drum and he increased the flow through the VB till the drum broke, then upgraded the drum and decreased the VB flow mod a hair. This is the state the trans is in now.

Also, pretty sure he bobo'd into 4th at full power a couple times and was surprised that it Didn't break 4th.

---------- Post added 12-19-2011 at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was 12-18-2011 at 11:58 PM ----------



The 2.4l 41te Will bolt to a 2.2, just like a T850 will. Only 1 mount hole is off and really not a big deal to make a plate for.

BTW, Are we jacking Robs thread to $hit? If so, maybe this should be moved so Robs thread can remain a GM based disscusion? Rob?
please keep it going. I'm looking for what would work best in the long run. there's alot of great stuff here.

[Shadow]

Someone needs to condense all that info, lol, there is something like 50+ pages to read, :banghead:




No problem, I can do exactly that if we're keeping this going! :)

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------


Puts the starter up front and for some of us, that won't work.

WT? Really, so the 2.4 MTX uses the starter in same location as 2.2/2.5, but the auto flips it to the front? :confused:

[turbovanman²]

No problem, I can do exactly that if we're keeping this going! :)

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------



WT? Really, so the 2.4 MTX uses the starter in same location as 2.2/2.5, but the auto flips it to the front? :confused:

Sweet.

The 2.0/2.4 puts the starter up front, auto or 5 speed, durrr. ;)

[Shadow]

The 2.0/2.4 puts the starter up front, auto or 5 speed, durrr. ;)

So what are the ppl doing that are using the T850 on 2.2/2,5's?

[RoadWarrior222]

Rope starter off a 3HP Briggs lawnmower :nod:

[turbovanman²]

So what are the ppl doing that are using the T850 on 2.2/2,5's?

Going to go out on a limb here and say, put the starter up front. Unless they are casting brand new case's, it has to go up front, or maybe they are using a belt driven starter, or they've cut a hole to access the crank nut and use a electric starter gun or maybe they use rollers, :eyebrows:

Most people though use the stock TM trans or modify a TM trans to fit an SRT block. For 3 speed autos using the SRT block, we use the Neon case.

[Shadow]

Well, I've got all these trannies/ blocks in the shop. Might as well do some moc-ups over the holidays and see what fits. :)

[Reaper1]

4th gear (aka OD) won't hold much power. This is a known fact and problem with ALL variants of the A604...even the RWD versions. It can be strengthened, but it will only get you so far. The best thing to do is use it as a 3-speed at the track, and use the OD only for the highway. That's what most of the RWD guys do from what I've gathered over time.

[RoadWarrior222]

Actually, that's gotta be true of the GM trannies too, because they should never tow in OD.

[turbovanman²]

Actually, that's gotta be true of the GM trannies too, because they should never tow in OD.

BS, you can tow in 4th no problem with an 4L60E, as long as your not lugging it and/or shifting constantly out of 3-4, its fine, same with the other GM trans. I've towed with my Jimmy in 4th for years, 4000 lb trailer, stock tranny cooler and 230K, just took it apart to fix the leaking pump seal, thought I'd rebuild it, really didn't need to, clutch's were mint, steels looked brand new, band looked like it was never used.


4th gear (aka OD) won't hold much power. This is a known fact and problem with ALL variants of the A604...even the RWD versions. It can be strengthened, but it will only get you so far. The best thing to do is use it as a 3-speed at the track, and use the OD only for the highway. That's what most of the RWD guys do from what I've gathered over time.

Yep, which is fine with me, :nod:

[RoadWarrior222]

Well yah, you can stick it on OD on flat highway.

[Shadow]

Where's Turbojerry? He's still on here, right? He should have some really good info on these trannies. (strength and weaknesses)

[ohiorob]

Where's Turbojerry? He's still on here, right? He should have some really good info on these trannies. (strength and weaknesses)

who is turbojerry?

[turbovanman²]

who is turbojerry?

He's into turbo-mopars for many years but keeps a low profile. He has a ton of useful info, goes way back.

[Shadow]

Anyone know what specific vehicles the "mexican" case came in? Years, production #'s? :)

[Reaper1]

I can tell you for certain that the Phantom's could be had with it after 1990. I've seen a few on CarDomain listed with 4-speeds and 2.5 turbo engines.

[ohiorob]

Decided to dump the GM idea, to big, heavy and to much work just to bolt it up.
got two 41t's at the shop. one neon ,one Sebring. still need to talk to Steve and find turboJerry.
would like to get the ball rolling on this this summer.

[Shadow]

Sounds good. I sifted through the thread on neon.org and was going to give a major breakdown on here but I'm not sure it would be worth it.


In a nut shell, Steve did some VB mods to help with shift quality, the A/M controller kept overheating, but otherwise worked great, and there were a few weaknesses found in the earlier models that seemed to be corrected by 2002-2003.


I think we can just move forward and I'll add pertinent info when it seems fitting. :)

[ohiorob]

:thumb:

[OmniLuvr]

my friend used to talk to turbojerry on a regular basis, not so much lately, il see if he can give him a ring for ya tho...

[Shadow]

That would be Great as I believe he could add some very needed info to push this forward.

[Vigo]

Hooray 604! :D

[Big_P]

If only someone could source a Mexican 2.2 604...

[RoadWarrior222]

Yup real difficult to source, what sort of place, would have a Mexican 604, made for the Mexican market, supplied in Mexico? Just need to think of the area, or region, place or nation where a Mexican transmission might be got... ... ... nope I got nothing, you?

[Vigo]

Mi espanol es malo, y soy gringo...no quieres estar KIDNAPPED.

[Reaper1]

I work with quite a few people that are Mexican born, but are now legal US citizens, but still have family and such in Mexico. I'll do some asking to see how bad obtaining one would be! ;)

[Shadow]

That would be cool as I already know a few ppl that would be interested.

[Reaper1]

Well. I asked this morning. It is possible, but that's as long as we aren't in any hurry. It would be helpful if we could source one before the guy goes, otherwise it might take longer. Shipping would be gas money. Keep in mind this is just talking right now. If this goes down as serious then more firm and detailed information can be had.

[Vigo]

Id be willing to have the trannies dropped off at, and shipped out of, my place if that helps at all. Might even be willing to drive closer to the border to meet up with the courier if needed. This is assuming someone doesnt feel like driving the trannies all the way from mexico to florida.

[black86glhs]

Just have the ones "walking across the border" carry a few out for you guys. Your over thinking this.:D

[RoadWarrior222]

You know those guys aren't interested in carrying anything for you unless they can swallow it or stuff it up their arse right?

[Reaper1]

Id be willing to have the trannies dropped off at, and shipped out of, my place if that helps at all. Might even be willing to drive closer to the border to meet up with the courier if needed. This is assuming someone doesnt feel like driving the trannies all the way from mexico to florida.

That would save on some $$$ for sure.

[turbovanman²]

Also, have them ship just cases, the guts etc you can get here, that will save a ton of money.

[Vigo]

I dont know about that.. the cheapest place to get one is going to be junkyards, and they're going to come complete. The only way to get a used case is to get it from a trans part seller, but you're still paying them to take it apart and just sell you the case. Where im at a used case from those guys isnt much or any cheaper than a junkyard trans. Asking the courier who may or may not be a mechanical person to do it doesn't seem good either.

I think being picky is just going to end up costing MORE money. I'd be willing to take most of the guts out of a 604 for shipping if the deal happened to come through my house, if that were to happen. But i'd charge you for those long snap ring pliers i'd need to get the pinion shaft out. :p

[Reaper1]

I agree that telling them to take the thing apart is a BAD idea.

I'm dead serious about trying to help with this. I'll give you guys the name of the place where they go so that searching for the parts will be easier.

[Reeves]

Rob,
Just put a 5 speed in there and be done with it! For a few passes.