Traction control now available for our cars!!!

[glhs727]

Yes, you heard correctly!
As some of you know, we already sell traction control units for the neaon srt-4 and the caliber srt-4! now the same maker of those units, ND Performance, make a traction control system for our cars. This will work for all abs cars like abs equipped R/Ts and 89 up shelby style rear brake cars when retrofitted with the r/t rear abs sensor. Took your ABS out of your r/t? No problem!, you can still use the TCS as long as you retained the right rear wheel abs sensor.
No longer will you need to feather the throttle off the line and pray the tires don't spin beyond control, no longer will you have to ease into 2nd gear, no longer will you have to worry about holding the correct launch RPM, and most of all no more spinning and spinning and spinning until 60+ mph with the feeling that the car is hardly moving anywhere. The TCS from ND Performance addresses all of these issues with the ease of use, reliability, quality, and value that you demand for your vehicle.

what can you expect?

Maximized traction for all conditions
Better 60' times
More consistent 60' times
Much better traction through low speed gear shifts
...Basically more grip as available

Your TCS will include many feature available now like remote map switcher, and electronic slick shift, and other software undates coming later like electronic boost control, 2 step rev-limiter, and some other goodies as well! (The unit already has the hardware, you will just need to upload the new software when ready!

These units have already been prototyped, installed and tested for more than 6 months and now ready to the public through FWD Performance
Retail pricing will in the $499-599 range, but we are offering a limited group buy of $399 per unit. Group buy will end on December 25th and these units will start shipping on Jan 31st!

Thanks!
Cindy

[iTurbo]

Would like a little more info, but I've pretty much been waiting for this so I'm down. I even sourced 11" rear disc setup for my CSX from an ABS equipped R/T so I believe I'm setup already. Does it use the VSS or an ABS sensor in the knuckle for the front reference? Is the feature set the same as the version for the CSRT? I had though about buying this for my Caliber some time ago but decided I wanted to keep that car pretty much stock for now. The YouTube videos of it working on the CSRT are impressive.

[turbovanman²]

What he said, so you only need the right rear wheel speed sensor? That's easy.

What kind of 60ft times can you expect on street tires?

The 2 step has me drooling. :nod:

[nemiro]

The TCS, as developed for the Turbo Dodges is very similar to our current product for the Neon SRT-4. It has been specially adapted for the older cars' electronics and ABS sensor. Because of the type of sensor used on the 88-94 cars, no other electronics or ABS system is actually required, outside of an ABS sensor on one of the rear wheels, preferably the right rear. If your car has ABS already, you're all set.

Right now, TCS is designed to be used in the 91-93 TIII cars. However, it will work on the SOHC cars, currently, with a few notes that I will get into if the interest to use it there exists. We have a TCS installed on Chris Papademetrious' 86 GLHS #432 (currently in the Shelby Museum), and in a 92 Spirit R/T.

In the R/T, we were able to do more complete testing, and can verify that all functions work properly, including Electronic Slick Shift (ESS) which is a WOT shift function. Testing has shown ESS to be worth about 0.5s in the 1/4 mile, not to mention the strain it takes off the driveline during power shifts, and how much easier it is to make them.

The TCS features an automatic two step, which allows you to dial in an RPM you want to launch at. While stationary, the 2 Step rev limit automatically engages. Setting the limit just right makes for a lot of popping (and even flames from the exhaust), but you can leave your foot on the floor, staying right at your ideal launch RPM, and what's more, you are actually building boost at the line. VERY useful for big turbo cars!

Once you launch, TCS adjusts itself 60 times per second, constantly keeping your tires right at the limit of adhesion. As the tires slip, TCS rolls off engine output just to the point that the tires stick. As they do stick, it rolls power back on, just to the point that it detects any slippage. As the tires can take more and more (as the car gets moving), TCS applies more and more power. The results? Very consistent, easy launches, with reduced driveline stress! TCS takes the guesswork out of launching your car. For this reason, we call it DriverMod.

How about the numbers? TCS has been around for almost 5 years now. Hundreds of TCS owners can't be wrong: Typical 60' times for a stock SRT-4 are in the 2.3-2.4s range. Better drivers might be able to pull that down to a 2.1. (On slicks, stock SRT's might pull off a 1.7-1.8, for reference.) With TCS and street tires, the same SRT-4 will pull off consistent 1.8-1.9 60' times. That's slick territory, all at a flip of a switch! What's more, if we compare a 2.3 stock 60' time to a 1.9 (lower end of the average) with TCS, that's 0.4s difference. The rule of thumb is that each tenth in the 60' is worth two tenths in the 1/4. Saving 0.4s in the 60' is worth about 0.8s in the 1/4. Go to the extreme of the averages, and you will save 0.6s, or 1.2s in the 1/4! Add in an additional savings of 0.5s with ESS, and you could be looking at 1.3 - 1.7s in the 1/4 - all on street tires! On slicks, the benefits just get better.


How about on the street? Well, traction control becomes the great equalizer at the stop light. Pesky Evo's and STi's are no match to even a mild SRT-4 with TCS. And in weather, you'll wonder how you ever drove your turbo Dodge without TCS.


TCS for turbo Dodges will come with the automatic 2 Step function, traction control, ESS, and the "Map Switcher" control, which allows you to turn the system on or off, and select between two different TCS maps that you program yourself in our intuitive "TCS Tuner" software, which runs under all 32bit versions of Microsoft Windows (2000/XP/Vista/Win7).

TCS will come to you with the TCS: DriverMod box, wiring harnesses, Map Switcher, and USB -> Serial adapter cable. Installation instructions and software are all available for download straight off our site.

[turbovanman²]

The 2 step sounds awesome.

I am a bit confused on how having your TCS read off the back sensor, it knows the front wheels are slipping? Is it comparing the SDS to the ABS speed?

Thanks Neil, great sounding product.

[nemiro]

Basically, that is how it works. There's a bit more to it, but those are the main inputs. After that, lots of math :)

[RoadWarrior222]

Interesting... what happens if you throw it sideways though? Seems like you can't pull it straight on power.

["Top Fuel" Bender]

what happens when your running 24.5-26" slicks but 22-23" skinnies in the back ?

[RoadWarrior222]

I guess that and the other will work out if it lets the front go slower than the back, but not faster...

In which case, short slicks and tall skinnies might be an issue, unless it's adjustable, and then you might be able to swap speedo gears for it.

[nemiro]

Interesting... what happens if you throw it sideways though? Seems like you can't pull it straight on power.
Has never been an issue. Also, TCS has some settings to disengage it above specified speeds.



what happens when your running 24.5-26" slicks but 22-23" skinnies in the back ?
TCS Tuner software has a whole section in it to set up and compensate for smaller or larger wheels/tires, front or rear :)

[RoadWarrior222]

Software, USB, Uh oh, can you make a version with a knob on it for Simon? :D

Cool stuffs, it's sounding like it might pay for itself in axles very quickly if you're in the high HP range. Who knows, maybe make stock axles last well into the 500WHP range.

and it's less than an OBX LSD....

What does it do to control power, intercept spark or fuel or something? It it going to be adaptable to 3.0 V6 setups? ( I guess I'm asking what specific things it needs to work beyond SDS and ABS sensor)

[nemiro]

TCS takes a multi-faceted approach to controlling power, but basically, ignition timing is retarded to reduce engine output, which in turn will bring wheel spin under control. If this does not do enough (almost always does), then TCS will cut ignition to a random cylinder, and increases this cutout, if necessary, until wheelspin is completely under control. It has proven itself effective at the race track and on the street.

Doing all of this takes a lot more processing power than anyone would guess. In order to get the processing rate up to where it needs to be, TCS uses multiple processors. In some applications, TCS has seven (!) processors onboard, all crunching numbers so that there is no lag, no delay, and no excuses when it really counts! The embedded code (many thousands of lines!) is written to FAA/DoD standards, so it is "tight", fast executing, and most of all, reliable. There is far more processing power in the TCS than there is in your engine controller!

TCS for this application will use the VSS (SDS), one ABS sensor (rear), clutch up switch, TPS, and ASD circuit. In addition, it will interface between the SBEC and the coil pack. Installation takes between 2-5 hours, all depending on your proficiency. Instructions are VERY thorough, with color pictures for each application, and even a primer on soldering. You can download instructions for the CSRT or NSRT off the site (http://www.ndperformance.com), and have a look. Installation will be closer to what the NSRT-4 uses, as the R/T will use that same basic system.

Currently we do not have a v6 version, but that will change in the future. Are you running a distributor or DIS?

[RoadWarrior222]

Thanks very much.

I don't know what I'll be running by the time I will really need something like this. At the moment a distributor, (Optical, not hall effect sensor) but could have it running a Ford EDIS on Megasquirt or anything by the time I'm ready.

[nemiro]

Distributor based can probably run this existing box (with some minor software tweaks). DIS will require a modified version of the CSRT box, which has not been developed, yet.

[vipernbox]

so will this work with LM and smec applications? or just sbec stuff...



heck I have masi brakes on the back of the glhs with speed sensor mounted already :)

[nemiro]

Right now, it is being released for SBEC TIII cars. However, I might have mentioned that this has been successfully installed in a GLHS ;)

[vipernbox]

Hey... this is the TM world just saying GLHS doesn't mean a thing.. :)

For all I know it could be a T3 SBEC machine... :lol:



Being kinda ignorant to this kind of stuff.. how much work am I looking at to make this baby tick on 87 PM/LM electronics.. (In 86 'S' )

Or a 89 Masi SMEC setup in the back of a Charger for that matter :D

[nemiro]

Installation is just as easy as the R/T, but you would have to add a clutch up switch (from a cruise control package or starter interlock would work great). Wiring would have to be extended to reach the coil, or you could improvise and wire it all at the LM. At any rate, install is pretty easy. I would have to go back and rewrite some of the software to be 100% spot on compatible with the single coil. If this is something you and others want, push your request through Cindy.

[1BADVAN]

I too would be interested in a SOHC version with SMEC controller and ATX just to make street tire launches more consistent would this work for that or would that have to be in Version 2 of this thing?

[nemiro]

Again, push the requests through Cindy, as she is the vendor, and she will give me feedback on how many are interested, and we will go from there.

[turbovanman²]

Guess we'll have to post up our requests, so I'd be interested for an auto, SMEC, dizzy setup.

[RoadWarrior222]

Wonder if you could try to be a smartarse and use it to kick in a center lock up clutch on a part time AWD setup when the front wheels lose traction....

[nemiro]

Could easily be done in the future.

[glhs727]

Requests for new products are great, but as we have seen in the past someone wants something, you spend a lot of money to get it developed then when ready everybody has an excuse why they can't buy one....
I would be willing to work with neil to get other applications done, but I would have to see at least 5-10 prepaid orders to make it worthwile to develope.

[turbovanman²]

Requests for new products are great, but as we have seen in the past someone wants something, you spend a lot of money to get it developed then when ready everybody has an excuse why they can't buy one....
I would be willing to work with neil to get other applications done, but I would have to see at least 5-10 prepaid orders to make it worthwile to develope.

Correct, hence why if we post up, you have an idea for the future, :thumb:

[vipernbox]

I am very interested... but I am also a cheapskate.... :lol: Well sorta.. Just have to many hobbies..

[RoadWarrior222]

I am very interested... but I am also a cheapskate.... :lol: Well sorta.. Just have to many hobbies..Ditto, got all these strange obsessions to fund, like eating, keeping the lights on, avoiding foreclosure etc.

[nemiro]

However, new products, especially ones for a niche market like this, do not happen without support. Without support and new products, the niche slowly dies away. That's the awful truth, and is, as always, a catch 22.

[vipernbox]

Oh no... Mine is way worse.. :lol: it involves a boat... and traveling.. At least the boat doesn't burn gas... (Hobie 16)


But seriously.. I am very interested in one of these.. This is just the kind of thing I can see myself springing for... Total 'high tech' in something that shouldn't be.. Love it..



So any and all details on what is required to adapt the current setup to the SMEC/LM would be awesome... Or what the heck right.. The sand rail has a SBEC VNT setup.. :)

[nemiro]

Adapting is easy from the user's standpoint, but to make it right will require some rework on my end.

[RoadWarrior222]

Personally I think some "common ground" coil and distributor version would sell best. Because off the top of my head, I can only think of 4 or 5 people/cars that could go for the TIII setup as is.... due to many R/Ts now being preserved as summer cars, unmodded, seldom taken to the track, and never having wet or snow traction issues because they never see it. OTOH, there's a lot more "ordinary" but modded to the gills TMs around in DD and serious racing service that this would appeal to I would think.

By common ground, I mean requiring some set of electronics that pretty much everyone can mod to if they really want to run it. For instance, we know about how to use the later speed sensors...
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/speedsensor.html

Though if it has to be... I can see some folks going out and trying to get DIS and neon coil packs working on older stuff....

[nemiro]

Think we're getting buried too deep in the weeds. The product was originally developed for the SRT-4 - an ABS equipped, DIS car. Making the leap to the TIII w/ABS was a logical one, and indeed the engineering and thorough testing has been conducted. Moving to a single coil, distributor 4 cylinder is not too complicated from here, and indeed I made a one-off TCS to do this job in Chris' GLHS (albeit, it uses a SRT-4 ABS system). Put the two flavors here (Chris' SOHC version and the R/T version) together, and coming up with a version for the 2.2/2.5 SOHC cars is fairly straightforward, but I also know there are some internal modifications to TCS that must be made to accommodate it. What I can tell you off hand, is that you can take one of these R/T versions right into an SOHC car, and it will start up and run great! There is some software that has to be taken care of, as there will only be one coil vs. DIS. If you can make a real business case to Cindy, that she feels this version will not just it sit on the shelf, then I will move forward with the necessary mods to make it happen.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, realize the TIII application was the easy step, most logical first step, just hoping you're not judging total potential demand off what might be relatively few TIII orders.

[moparman76_69]

I was considering getting a WOT box but this looks like a better option. I'll be running a distributor setup on a 2.4 though. I have no problems adding a clutch switch as I'd have to for the WOT box anyway. Problem will be coming up with the cash that soon.

[nemiro]

I've been involved with the Shelby Dodge market for quite a long time, and I do know what to expect.


WOT Box is a great product, and it certainly has it's place - like when you want to do less than you can ;)

[turbovanman²]

I was considering getting a WOT box but this looks like a better option. I'll be running a distributor setup on a 2.4 though. I have no problems adding a clutch switch as I'd have to for the WOT box anyway. Problem will be coming up with the cash that soon.

Ditto, I really need some help with launching, and yeah, cash flow, :(


Maybe get a count on how many would be interested and do a spring sale, I'd be able to save up by then, just in time for drag racing season.

[iTurbo]

I was actually not going to do the TIII (or SBEC for that matter) on my '87 Shelby CSX. That car will be getting a regular coil pack and SMEC electronics.

But, lots of TIII vehicles in the works here, so I'm definitely still down for one with this group buy sale that FWDP is doing! Probably use it on my Omni GLH instead which is getting TIII SBEC.

[135sohc]

Very cool. I have no interest in this product (nothing to use it on) but to see what can be done to bring modern technology into an old platform like these just never ceases to amaze me.


Requests for new products are great, but as we have seen in the past someone wants something, you spend a lot of money to get it developed then when ready everybody has an excuse why they can't buy one....
I would be willing to work with neil to get other applications done, but I would have to see at least 5-10 prepaid orders to make it worthwile to develope.

Big +1... I'm not doing my 'group buy' to make a profit and become a vendor. But hearing so much interest, putting out big $$$ upfront and now to sit back and watch it fizzle out.... I doubt I'll break even on it. I dont know how you can be a fulltime vendor for this crowd and stay sane.

[86Shelby]

Is this a stand-alone system similar to an aftermarket remote start, or does it require a special FWDP modified SBEC like a Trim-cal?

Is the option of being able to switch between tires sizes easy and quick once you have it dialed in? I like to drive my car to the track and put the slicks on there. I'd rather not have to spend 15-20 minutes(or however long) resetting the unit.

[nemiro]

It's a standalone system, and does not 'care' what ECU you have in your turbo Dodge :)

[speedfreek500]

If there was a LM version ready i would buy it now!

[86Shelby]

Neil, I think you were a bit too ninja-like in your reply and missed my addition. Any reference on how long it takes to change the settings for tire size?

[nemiro]

Sorry about that. Changing any of the setting for the TCS, including tire sizes takes mere seconds from within the TCS Tuner software.

Also, since TCS can hold two separate maps, you can program one for your street tires, and another for slicks. Switching between the two profiles (and yes, even tire sizes can be different between the maps) is as simple as flipping a switch. Almost every single adjustment can be saved in one map or the other. In addition, you can save and load profiles to disk, so you could set up several street tire or slick maps, and then load them up through TCS Tuner whenever you want. In the CSRT and NSRT communities, people swap their TCS map files with each other, as well.

[ShadowFromHell]

So this is only for T3 cars? Im gonna be honest I dont think you will sell that many of them. Just not enough of the cars out there in the first place, let alone very many that would benefit from this system. Now, If you make a system that works on SMEC 88-89 cars, you would sell alot. From what I have seen the SMEC cars are the most popular cars to be modded, and alot of LM guys swap to SMEC electronics. I also have another question. With spirit r/t abs brakes not being something you can pick up at your local JY it makes those parts hard to get, adding to the cost. But, alot of 1gen neons came with ABS, and I think with a little tweaking the rear brakes from a 1gen neon could be bolted onto the back of a turbo mopar. If that is the case, will the neon ABS sensors work with this system, or are they different? I was VERY excited when I saw the tittle to this thread, but rather then let down when I saw that it only worked on r/t's. I would want at least one of these units if they worked on SMEC cars, possibly two.

[nemiro]

One step at a time, guys. Read my posts carefully. R/T is the logical step in the evolution. The 1G neon sensors are a whole other type, and I have no plans to support them right now. The ABS sensors that the R/T used are actually fairly plentiful in junkyards. Again, one step at a time. There are plenty of R/T owners out there, but you are right, there are more SOHC owners. Read my posts in this thread again.

[iTurbo]

I think the confusion comes from post #1 says that this will work with all ABS equipped cars, but now it is apparent that this is only for cars running TIII based electronics because they use a coil pack.

Regarding the two-step RPM limiter function.....will an ABS equipped car have the clutch pedal switch? For those of us with TIII swaps, I assume we'll have to retrofit the clutch pedal switch in addition to the rear ABS sensor?

And...any plans for an iOS app? Probably thinking way too far ahead here but connectivity similar to the PLX Kiwi Wifi would be pretty nice and a whole lot more convenient for those of us who don't do Windows. I think it is Objective C not sure if you do that Neil.

[nemiro]

No plans to support iOS devices at all. SOHC support is there (again, read my earlier posts), but will require people stepping up to the plate to encourage the engineering to be done. SOHC units could be available in as little as 4-6 weeks.

For cars without them, a clutch switch would need to be added to take advantage of the ESS function. Rear ABS sensor will be required, no matter what.

[glhs727]

So, not to go on and on about what future products we should do,
lets recap:

TCS for r/t cars now available (or any car using the coilpack/rear abs sensor, clutch up switch needed if you want the ess function to work)
TCS could be available for sohc cars if enough interest, which would be gauged not by how many people say it is a good idea, but instead by how many people would be willin to actually buy one, by putting down a deposit.
so i wil start a new thread for the group buy and deposits for the sohc versions

[iTurbo]

OK thanks Neil.

And Cindy, is this a group buy with a list we should start or do we just call to order?

I had though about saying that I would like an SMEC/distributorized version, but really I think any car *I* would actually buy this for would have TIII electronics. Definitely in for one, maybe two.... I'm thinking this would reduce the shock loads on the TIII-enabled A525/A555 trans that I have for the Omni.

[nemiro]

No doubt at all that it takes shock out of the driveline. TCS reduces engine output, it does not add any power. While seemingly count-intuitive, TCS accelerates the car more quickly, with less drama, and less wear and tear on everything, including your clutch, trans, axles, and yes, tires.

[tryingbe]

Any customer feedback threads on TCS for the newer cars?

It's kinda hard to put a deposit down for something that has not even been developed for the 8 valves cars. Never mind tested on 8 valves cars.
What if we don't like the product? Full refund possible?

[nemiro]

Lots of feedback through SRTForums and various caliber forums. There are quite a few videos up on Youtube, too. Function for the 8v cars will be the same, and remember, there is a prototype TCS running in GLHS #432 (2.2 8v).

[tryingbe]

Post those URL please.

[RoadWarrior222]

It's a standalone system, and does not 'care' what ECU you have in your turbo Dodge :)
Great! Wish you'd said that earlier :D

I think when you said map swapping I and others were thinking it was going to trigger a SMEC/SBEC switchable custom calibration or something, not it's own map.

So it's only dependent on particular inputs, particular type of SDS, particular ABS and particular outputs, currently the DIS right?

I'm obsessing on "what does it need to know" because I'm thinking it won't take a lot on the part of the PURCHASER to mod any vehicle to use it, given suitably generic coilpack and coil versions, and information on what signals it needs. Because looking beyond the TIII/DIS version, you're gonna get 2 people for this particular config, and 3 people for that particular config, and me with a V6 just hoping something gets close enough, and details seep through enough to take the plunge on buying a model that probably ain't gonna be V6 specific... and I'll be trying to figure how to cobble one onto a Ford Escort...

Just saying there would be more confidence if you could come out with "This will work with setups that have x y and z" with x y and z being specific sensors or outputs, because there's enough info and ingenuity around here to get pretty much any combo of that on any vehicle. Because at the moment, it's like trying to order something that sounds like a good cone filter, that you know the dimensions of, and the vendor insists you supply make/model and then tells you you can't have it because it won't fit in your airbox... and you know damn well it won't fit in your airbox, and doesn't the vendor realise that rigging a bit of 3" piping to the rest of the intake isn't rocket science.... but the vendor will take your money and tell you when they have a custom bent bit of 3" piping available if they take enough orders for your particular vehicle to make a custom no brainer fit worth it. Really, all you want is the filter dammit and you'll rig your own damn pipe.

[trannybuster]

If there was a LM version ready i would buy it now!

Agreed, Id pay today if it were or do we need to start paying now to make the LM version going...lmk. Traction is my biggest issue in the GLHS, well actually it sucks, spinning tires at 55-60mph is cool and all but tires arent cheap and the fix to keep spinning is what slicks, Im not running slicks on the street!

[turbovanman²]

Wow, people gotta read, lol.


That car will be getting a regular coil pack and SMEC electronics.


How are you going to do that?

[Reaper1]

OK...Lengel...your next job is to machine a whole slew of tone rings that can be adapted to our stock hubs so we can all install an ABS sensor in our rear brake adapters!

In all seriousness though, Cindy, an install kit that could be purchased with the product would be VERY beneficial! When I get my Masi engine in my car this is something I will be VERY interested in! I've been thinking of this type of thing for a few years now in my own head and to see it become a reality in almost the way I envisioned is exciting to me! It does need to be able to work with SMEC and SBEC single coil cars, though, in order for it to be a real success. I would have thought that would have been a given considering the percentage of the customer base with TIII's vs. other stuff?

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

Oh, Neil, the ABS sensors in question...are they the same for other ABS cars of that time, such as Imperial's and New Yorker's?

[iTurbo]

Wow, people gotta read, lol.



How are you going to do that?

Not sure what you mean? CSX isn't getting TIII so no TCS on that car for now, but will be converting to SMEC. By coil pack I meant probably use the later thermostat mounted coil....not really a coil 'pack' I guess but I digress.

[nemiro]

Any ABS sensor on a 2.2/2.5/3.0/3.3/3.8 car of the 88-94 vintage _should_ work. It should be the earlier Bosch type of ABS system, not the later Kelsey Hayes type. (94 was a changeover year)

[trannybuster]

Agreed, Id pay today if it were or do we need to start paying now to make the LM version going...lmk. Traction is my biggest issue in the GLHS, well actually it sucks, spinning tires at 55-60mph is cool and all but tires arent cheap and the fix to keep spinning is what slicks, Im not running slicks on the street!

Ha, T111 guys dont have any money, too busy buying 600.00 heads..pft...lol..Us Lm guys are loaded!

[nemiro]

Then step up and pre-order a SOHC TCS :)

[speedfreek500]

I will if the TCS will work on my LM.

[trannybuster]

Where do I pay? FWDP?

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------


I will if the TCS will work on my LM.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63159-Group-buy-for-TCS

Thats the preorder for LM units, yeah I was just clicking on the thread outside of the FWDP myself and didnt see this either^^

[turbovanman²]

Not sure what you mean? CSX isn't getting TIII so no TCS on that car for now, but will be converting to SMEC. By coil pack I meant probably use the later thermostat mounted coil....not really a coil 'pack' I guess but I digress.

I thought you meant coil pack, as in coil pack, :eyebrows:

I am supposed to test a prototype system so it still could happen, :nod:

[nemiro]

Yes! The SOHC version will work with LM, SMEC and SBEC. For that matter, add a rear ABS sensor and a SDS (VSS), and this will work on a carb'd car!

[RoadWarrior222]

Hmmmm, on this page...
http://www.ndperformance.com/tcs/tuning_tcs.html

I am seeing the tuner software has a simple radio button for MAP sensor type. (For the SRT-4)

I am gonna presume you'll at least put in the 2 stock MAP sizes for the "SOHC" version, if it uses the MAP sensor. But, some folks are using some odd ones, or modded stock ones, so being able to directly enter MAP parameters might be better for anyone that wants to use "other" MAP sensors...

But how does that bit work on a carbed car???

[1BADVAN]

Hmmmm, on this page...
http://www.ndperformance.com/tcs/tuning_tcs.html

I am seeing the tuner software has a simple radio button for MAP sensor type. (For the SRT-4)

I am gonna presume you'll at least put in the 2 stock MAP sizes for the "SOHC" version, if it uses the MAP sensor. But, some folks are using some odd ones, or modded stock ones, so being able to directly enter MAP parameters might be better for anyone that wants to use "other" MAP sensors...

But how does that bit work on a carbed car???

Im pretty sure he said "map" not MAP
Meaning it has a "map"- a program it references .
Not a "MAP"- manifold absolute pressure sensor.

Thats my understanding anyways

[turbovanman²]

Yes! The SOHC version will work with LM, SMEC and SBEC. For that matter, add a rear ABS sensor and a SDS (VSS), and this will work on a carb'd car!

Does it have to be right rear or can you use the left rear instead?

[nemiro]

There is a MAP sensor radio button, but right now, it does nothing, as it is there for the future for other options. Right now, you can set it to whatever makes you happy :)

---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------


Does it have to be right rear or can you use the left rear instead?

Right is preferred, but left will work fine, too.

[turbovanman²]

Right is preferred, but left will work fine, too.

Why? Just curious, does it really make a difference?

[nemiro]

Slight difference in how the differential works, and how the SDS reads off the right axle. We just noticed that right rear works a little better, is all.

[turbovanman²]

Slight difference in how the differential works, and how the SDS reads off the right axle. We just noticed that right rear works a little better, is all.

Ok, fair enough.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yah, I figured that turning left or right, the right rear follows a similar (not the same but fairly close) radius/track to the right front, which the SDS reads off, whereas the left rear would either follow a much smaller, or larger radius which in the case of tight left turns might trigger the TCS.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yah, I figured that turning left or right, the right rear follows a similar (not the same but fairly close) radius/track to the right front, which the SDS reads off, whereas the left rear would either follow a much smaller, or larger radius which in the case of tight left turns might trigger the TCS.

[trannybuster]

Money where mouth is! Done today!

[nemiro]

Thanks!

[Reaper1]

This obviously work very well in straight lines (I watched the You Tube videos I could find), but how does it fair in corners? I'd be running an LSD of some sort, so it wouldn't matter if I were turning right or left because both front wheels will spin the same speed.

From my perspective it seems to me it would work well in that sort of set-up, but if the diff were an open-type, then left-hand corners could still result in inside tire fires if I'm understanding how this works correctly.

This isn't to say the product is junk, just that if somebody were to expect it to work in this situation, then there are other mechanical pre-requisites for it to function correctly.

I will be on board with this product, and purchase it in the future...I just have to tackle one project at a time. Right now that's the engine. :thumb:

[nemiro]

Yes, in tight left corners, with an open diff, you would have this issue. However, if you are that bad of a driver, that you would allow your open diff car light up a tire uncontrollably in corners, you will be replacing said diff in short order when it spits the spider gears out :)

Seriously, though, it will work best with a LSD, no doubt about it.

[turbovanman²]

This obviously work very well in straight lines (I watched the You Tube videos I could find), but how does it fair in corners? I'd be running an LSD of some sort, so it wouldn't matter if I were turning right or left because both front wheels will spin the same speed.

From my perspective it seems to me it would work well in that sort of set-up, but if the diff were an open-type, then left-hand corners could still result in inside tire fires if I'm understanding how this works correctly.

This isn't to say the product is junk, just that if somebody were to expect it to work in this situation, then there are other mechanical pre-requisites for it to function correctly.

I will be on board with this product, and purchase it in the future...I just have to tackle one project at a time. Right now that's the engine. :thumb:

Links of vids.

[tryingbe]

Post those URL please.

Still waiting.

[RoadWarrior222]

Links of vids.


Still waiting.

Guys, a smiley or two would soften what might be seen as a harsh response,

such as...


:whip:

[Reaper1]

YouTube and Google are your friends! ;)

[nemiro]

Here's some links to my own vids of testing with the CSRT-4. There are other vids with the NSRT. Keep in mind these were done on 90 octance fuel, on a rural road, at 8000' elevation on stock tires, suspension, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsTlDexV3UI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDnln-Z3Jw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9MoNXaypr8


Not my vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVyNFcj1sFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QKAiA42y5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUb9gFg0Q3M


There's tons more out there. As stated earlier. Google and Youtube are your friends.

[trannybuster]

I hear ppl complain all the time about their BMW traction control..my point being your not going to find the 'fix-all' traction device, not even in a $40,000 vehicle..sheesh. I would bet 99% ppl who buy this are more worried about straight line performance, which we complain about daily, but just like that BMW this will 'help' in many 'other' situations and hamper in others aspects. Im sure they could design it, but at price quoted, I doubt it.

[nemiro]

until you're in a supercar, you'll always hear about people complaining about factory traction control. That's because factory traction control is all about the lawyers, and absolutely nothing about performance. DriverMod is all about performance. Watch the vids, or try it out in a DriverMod equipped car.



edit: read the last post wrong. sorry about that.

[tryingbe]

Maybe I should be more specific.

I want to see a video of a FWD car (8V PREFER) equipped with TCS doing a 1/4 mile and then have it show the 60 ft time and what tires it used.

So for, all I have are words, videos of flashing lights on top of the dash, and building boost in neutral. I searched, found nothing on youtube that I am looking for.

Google resulted to the below. Not really impressed.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f335/tcs-results-questions-1-8-mile-381307/


So my question to NDE or any others out there tuning on this thing is what are yall doing and what else can you think of to help my car in first gear (and dont say slicks)? Cuz it works great after first, it's just when I come to full spool at 3200-3400 RPM in first gear it spins away.



As far as I am concern, the vendor is in the phrase of proving this product works on a 8V car. Having one prototype unit working 8V is prefect, for posting video of how well the unit works, with a 1/4 slip and 60 ft time to back it up the claim.

Do we need to start a $20 donation + gas fund to get this car to the 1/4 mile track?

[glhs727]

Getting that 8v with the tcs installed to the track anytime soon would be hard . It is currently sitting in the Shelby Museum.....

[RoadWarrior222]

Well chop chop, I'm sure there's boltcutters, crowbar, flashlight etc hanging round the shop somewhere :D

[trannybuster]

Ive got the vehicle, too far away.

[AZTurbo]

Dear God... if it costs more than a gvalve this community flogs the thing to death or decides it's not worth having. A system that is user adjustable is up to the user to make the most from it.

A system like this can help novice drivers hook up their cars and get a better or more consistent idea of what they're capable of. Seasoned drivers with good setups might not benefit at all... Also consider that retarding the ignition when traction is lost means that boost will still continue to build even as torque is reduced, when the traction is there, the boost will be too.

I'm VERY interested in this system for my car, but I'm too far off from having it running to be able to loose the dollars yet. I hope it becomes a stocked item, but like most 8v items, I doubt the support will materialize for it much beyond 3-4 systems.

[nemiro]

Well, I understand being skeptical, that's being a smart consumer. However, this is not a fly by night product (or company, for that matter). TCS has been in the SRT market for over 4 years. There are posted videos and times with and without TCS. If you think getting a CSRT-4 to consistent 5.6-5.7s 0-60 times (especially under the conditions stated) is easy, then you have never seen a CSRT in person. For reference, the 86 GLHS did 0-60 in 6.5s - and CSRT is an absolute pig next to an L-body. But I digress.

TCS has been out for turbo Dodges for years. It has a real track record (some people with experience even posted in this thread). I have it running in an 8v car, and it is running in an R/T. It is not vaporware. It is running in literally hundreds of SRT-4s (both varieties). Did I mention it is not vaporware? Yes, rolling timing back in conjunction with the automatic 2 step will make boost at the line, and it will keep the turbo spooled. Getting the most out of the system (including controlling spin in 1st gear) will require seat time for the driver, and tenacity to keep adjusting the settings to get the system dialed into YOUR car and YOUR driving style. Once you do, though, you'll wonder how you ever did it without it. Once you realize how much ESS is doing for you, you will also realize that the potential for breaking driveline parts goes down, and over time, I have no doubt at all that TCS pays for itself in parts that didn't break.

Two last points. I mentioned there are hundreds of these systems out there. There are. If you spend time on SRTForums, you'll notice that it is a virtual rarity that a TCS comes up for sale used (there's one on there now for more than a new one costs through this group buy!). If one does show up for sale, it is almost always because the car is getting parted out to be sold. Owners hang on to these because the darn thing just plain works.

Lastly, I can almost guarantee to you that this will be about the most affordable price for a new TCS you will see for a very long time. If you're on the fence, this might be the kicker for you. This group buy will be limited quantity and for a limited time, that I can assure you of.





edit: tired & cranky :)

[turbovanman²]

YouTube and Google are your friends! ;)

I searched You tube and found nothing. Why is it so hard to post up what you found? I think hens teeth would be easier to find, :(


Getting that 8v with the tcs installed to the track anytime soon would be hard . It is currently sitting in the Shelby Museum.....

So remove it and install it on another car.



Well, I understand being skeptical, that's being a smart consumer. However, this is not a fly by night product (or company, for that matter). TCS has been in the SRT market for over 4 years. There are posted videos and times with and without TCS. If you think getting a CSRT-4 to consistent 5.6-5.7s 0-60 times (especially under the conditions stated) is easy, then you have never seen a CSRT in person. For reference, the 86 GLHS did 0-60 in 6.5s - and CSRT is an absolute pig next to an L-body. But I digress.

TCS has been out for turbo Dodges for years. It has a real track record (some people with experience even posted in this thread). I have it running in an 8v car, and it is running in an R/T. It is not vaporware. It is running in literally hundreds of SRT-4s (both varieties). Did I mention it is not vaporware? Yes, rolling timing back in conjunction with the automatic 2 step will make boost at the line, and it will keep the turbo spooled. Getting the most out of the system (including controlling spin in 1st gear) will require seat time for the driver, and tenacity to keep adjusting the settings to get the system dialed into YOUR car and YOUR driving style. Once you do, though, you'll wonder how you ever did it without it. Once you realize how much ESS is doing for you, you will also realize that the potential for breaking driveline parts goes down, and over time, I have no doubt at all that TCS pays for itself in parts that didn't break.

Two last points. I mentioned there are hundreds of these systems out there. There are. If you spend time on SRTForums, you'll notice that it is a virtual rarity that a TCS comes up for sale used (there's one on there now for more than a new one costs through this group buy!). If one does show up for sale, it is almost always because the car is getting parted out to be sold. Owners hang on to these because the darn thing just plain works.

Lastly, I can almost guarantee to you that this will be about the most affordable price for a new TCS you will see for a very long time. If you're on the fence, this might be the kicker for you. This group buy will be limited quantity and for a limited time, that I can assure you of.






p.s. - posting up just dogging the system, even though you have *zero* experience with it, will not deter this product from moving forward. However, it may discourage the next guy, who just might have a great product for you and your car, though. I've been in the SD/TD market for over 15 years now, and seen this pattern over and over, and let me tell you, I have gotten lots of emails and PMs over the years from folks telling me exactly that. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. If you can't afford TCS (be honest), don't want it, or think it's a waste, just move on. That's all.

Neil, I don't know you but I know you if that makes sense, I know you can build what you say you do but this forum of full of people who have no idea who you are. We are all about the results, NOT what we are being told. So SRT's have it, big deal, we aren't SRT's, NRST's etc. Trust me when I say this, put this on an old school car and test it, I guarantee the flood gates will open. I hope you don't take offense to what I wrote.

[nemiro]

Not at all. Went back and read what I wrote, and realized I was just tired, and being cranky :) These things will get out there soon enough...

[turbovanman²]

Not at all. Went back and read what I wrote, and realized I was just tired, and being cranky :) These things will get out there soon enough...

Good, :nod:

Anyhow, after Cindy's last post in the group buy thread, I'll be looking for something else, good luck, :thumb:

[RoadWarrior222]

Getting that 8v with the tcs installed to the track anytime soon would be hard . It is currently sitting in the Shelby Museum.....Actually, could you identify that car better for us. I am getting a feeling that there was an article about it some time back, and TCS as well as other mod cons were described as part of an R&R but I guess we passed over that at the time, because it sounded like a megabuck one-off. Anyway, if you tell us what car it actually was it might help to dig up some details on it.

---------- Post added at 07:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 AM ----------


Group buy will end on December 25th


Anyhow, after Cindy's last post in the group buy thread, I'll be looking for something else, good luck, :thumb:

Conditions were up front in the first post, so I dunno why you are surprised or put out.

[eski]

Maybe I should buy one and install it to Neil's old R/T (yeah still have it) :). It's shame that you ship end of Jan, because I would love to get one at my hands at Christmas when I visit FL.

[glhs727]

It's not that big so shipping to Europe won't be too much!!

[nemiro]

[/COLOR]
It's not that big so shipping to Europe won't be too much!!

Think it's import duty he's probably worried about...

[glhs727]

This is what I said in the group buy thread. I don't know why you think I have some attitude or why it is negative.



OK, if interested and willing to put down a $250 deposit NOW, not in 6 months, then please call me at the shop. 281-288-4411. I will take all your info. I will wait until we have at least 6 people paid or 6 weeks whichever comes first, and then decide based on that. If Neil decides the numbers are worth supporting this application, then we will go ahead and bill all participants for the deposit at that time.

[trannybuster]

^^Cause he really, really wants one :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

This is what I said in the group buy thread. I don't know why you think I have some attitude or why it is negative.

Not sure if your aware but people don't have money, offering to sell it now doesn't help anyone, I suggested you post up a gauging interest thread, for say Spring, so people can get over Xmas etc and you come back with that, so its obvious your not really interested in selling the product, so I simply said I am out and good luck and I'll pursue a cheaper option.

[tryingbe]

All I want is some 60 ft time slip and video to back up the product. Why is it so hard? If they are posted where else, wouldn't it be wise for you to use them toward your advantage? Instead, I gets a bunch of text that says, "this product works, on hundreds of cars, you should do your own research."

Well, I did do my search, and I posted my search for everyone to see.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63141-Traction-control-now-available-for-our-cars!!!&p=875186&viewfull=1#post875186

Right now, 60 ft time slip with the video to show that 60 ft time and tires used are the only things that will convince me to buy this product. I think it's pretty justify for a potential customer to ask for the proof of what this product is suppose to deliver. Wouldn't you?

To back up that I have money, here's a picture of proof.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/440.jpg

[turbovanman²]

^^Cause he really, really wants one :thumb:

Yeah, I do, but can't swing it until next year, like I mentioned. I bet many others are in the same boat. Either way, it will be this or his WOT box.

[glhs727]

Look, you can buy one in the spring when you have more money, providing that 6 or more fellow TD'ers pitch in and get this off the ground. You wouldn't get the same great price break waiting 6 months, but no said you couldn't buy one in the future. It isn't buy one now or you can NEVER buy one. Do you think it would be fair to anyone that had the money and wanted it right away, that I told them they had to wait till spring because I should wait for Simon. What if 6 months comes and you need a new head or trans or what not, and you don't have the money for a TCS. What should we do then? Maybe you should wait and tryingbe can wait too because he wants proof on an 8v FWD TD before he wants to buy one. That is OK!!.... The first 6 that are willing to take the leap of faith and get this product out to the public will be rewarded with a better price that others that won't or can't. Don't make me or Neil the bad guy because you can't do it now, or you don't beleive it will work, or for whatever reason someone might have for not participating. No one is being forced to do buy one but we are rewarding those that do!

[turbovanman²]

Look, you can buy one in the spring when you have more money, providing that 6 or more fellow TD'ers pitch in and get this off the ground. You wouldn't get the same great price break waiting 6 months, but no said you couldn't buy one in the future. It isn't buy one now or you can NEVER buy one. Do you think it would be fair to anyone that had the money and wanted it right away, that I told them they had to wait till spring because I should wait for Simon. What if 6 months comes and you need a new head or trans or what not, and you don't have the money for a TCS. What should we do then? Maybe you should wait and tryingbe can wait too because he wants proof on an 8v FWD TD before he wants to buy one. That is OK!!.... The first 6 that are willing to take the leap of faith and get this product out to the public will be rewarded with a better price that others that won't or can't. Don't make me or Neil the bad guy because you can't do it now, or you don't beleive it will work, or for whatever reason someone might have for not participating. No one is being forced to do buy one but we are rewarding those that do!

I suggested you do a group buy in the spring, when PEOPLE have more money-AFTER Xmas, but if can't understand that, ok then. Its a good toy but for $500-$600, I'll buy a WOT box. At $399 I and I bet others will do it later on. Sorry to have suggested a way for you to get sales, my bad.

[tryingbe]

tryingbe can wait too because he wants proof on an 8v FWD TD before he wants to buy one.

Maybe I shouldn't have caps those PREFER and you wouldn't have skip it.


I want to see a video of a FWD car (8V PREFER) equipped with TCS doing a 1/4 mile and then have it show the 60 ft time and what tires it used.


Never knew asking for proof of a "proven" product can be so difficult.

[glhs727]

Your right, maybe waiting to spring would allow for more people to buy it, and if we can't get enough people this time around and decide not to do it, we can always revisted the idea in the spirng, or next year or 5 years from now. But if we have enough people willing to do it now, why wait?

BTW we also sell the N2MB wot box, toy box and their other products. I even have a good used WOT box from them that i could sell..... which would get you part way there, at least the 2 step, and slick shift, but it isn't traction control. You could also install an msd 6al and that has a 2 step rev limiter... So if you are only looking for a 2 step rev limiter, you have many choices. Now if you want traction control and it's added features, that is another thing altogether.

[88C/S]

Would love to take advantage of the special group buy. Hopefully will be able to get one around spring or summer. Great idea, nice adding 21st century tech to our cars, which is half the fun of making improvements.

[RoadWarrior222]

To back up that I have money, here's a picture of proof.

Not enough, we need to see the ATM slip and a video of you getting it out of the bank :lol:

[Reaper1]

Not enough, we need to see the ATM slip and a video of you getting it out of the bank :lol:

We also need the account number, routing number, pin number, card number, and security code...just to be sure! ;)

[nemiro]

I will try to link some more threads of peoples' numbers. Thought you were asking for vids, and I posted some. A simple search on Youtube yields dozens of videos for TCS. I will look for time slips (more like people posting up their times) when I get a chance. I am on a family trip right now, and will revisit this when I get a chance.


As for the timing of this effort, this is a do it now, or you could end up waiting a long time thing. I have other development efforts starting in late January that will back burner the TD applications for a quite a while, unfortunately. That being said, it needs to be done now, or perhaps not for quite a long time. This is not a threat of any type, it's just reality. I have a chance to bring the product to a group of vehicles I happen to be a big fan of, and so I am doing it. This market is intensely small next to developing for the Hemi cars, Camaros and Mustangs.

[turbovanman²]

Your right, maybe waiting to spring would allow for more people to buy it, and if we can't get enough people this time around and decide not to do it, we can always revisted the idea in the spirng, or next year or 5 years from now. But if we have enough people willing to do it now, why wait?

BTW we also sell the N2MB wot box, toy box and their other products. I even have a good used WOT box from them that i could sell..... which would get you part way there, at least the 2 step, and slick shift, but it isn't traction control. You could also install an msd 6al and that has a 2 step rev limiter... So if you are only looking for a 2 step rev limiter, you have many choices. Now if you want traction control and it's added features, that is another thing altogether.

I simply suggested spring as an alternative, so lets just leave it at that, :thumb:

If you aren't doing this again in spring, I'll see what you have then. Thanks.

Looks like Neil won't be doing them in the future, that's a shame, oh well, :(

[trannybuster]

C'mon ppl, would FWDP be in business yet if they sold snake oil products...IVe always got what I was promised from them before and I dont see any reason to doubt this product will be any different. Get those preorders in and lets get this made! Dont wish you did it, just do it!

[glhs727]

Looks like Neil won't be doing them in the future, that's a shame, oh well, :(

Simon, could you please work on your reading comprehension.
Neil said "As for the timing of this effort, this is a do it now, or you could end up waiting a long time thing."
No where does he say he will NOT be doing them in the future.... just that now is good time to get it going before his schedule fills up with other projects.

[John B]

I would need a different rear brake setup on my Shadow, right? I have the stock small drum rears. Would this be a whorthwhile improvemment over just my Peloquin?

[turbovanman²]

Simon, could you please work on your reading comprehension.
Neil said "As for the timing of this effort, this is a do it now, or you could end up waiting a long time thing."
No where does he say he will NOT be doing them in the future.... just that now is good time to get it going before his schedule fills up with other projects.

I can read just fine, I just know how things work with our cars and products.

---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------


I would need a different rear brake setup on my Shadow, right? I have the stock small drum rears. Would this be a whorthwhile improvemment over just my Peloquin?

You need rear abs, so if you can you find a drum rear abs, your set, :eyebrows:

[trannybuster]

I would need a different rear brake setup on my Shadow, right? I have the stock small drum rears. Would this be a whorthwhile improvemment over just my Peloquin?

Pelequin doesnt have a 'brain'...I would say posi and TCS would be the perfect marriage, because when the power overcomes the posi and the car spins then the TCS jumps in, the ultimate traction setup.

[nemiro]

There is a lot of truth to this. Realize TCS was originally designed for the NSRT-4, which 2004-05 models came with a Quaiffe LSD from the factory. However, we also designed a box for the CSRT-4, which runs and open differential, and it works great in that application, as well.

[RoadWarrior222]

But if your GF had to bring her fat sister along, make her sit behind you.

[John B]

You need rear abs, so if you can you find a drum rear abs, your set, :eyebrows:

What models might have that?

[RoadWarrior222]

Well it came in in '89, probably only initially an option on the top level trims, so think Chryslers rather than Plymouths. I think from about '91 it was an option on every body type somewhere, except possibly the P-body. (I'm just not remembering ever hearing of it on one is all)

[John B]

Thanks. If anybody locates one of those critters, please give me a heads up and maybe we can make a deal!

BTW, I have pumpers on my '92 Voyager too. Looks spiffy!

[trannybuster]

^^Get that preorder in....

[glhs727]

update:
5 commintments for the R/T version (only need ONE more for a go!)
2 commitments for the SOHC version (come on people, nows your chance to step!)

[vipernbox]

Give me a week or two... gota see how much play money I have left after Christmas...

[turbovanman²]

What models might have that?

No idea, I don't think they had abs drums, I was joking around, lol.

[Reaper1]

There is a lot of truth to this. Realize TCS was originally designed for the NSRT-4, which 2004-05 models came with a Quaiffe LSD from the factory. However, we also designed a box for the CSRT-4, which runs and open differential, and it works great in that application, as well.

CSRT-4's had and electronic traction control system that worked through the ABS. That was their reasoning for never offering a true LSD in that platform. That last bit of info came directly from an SRT engineer. It worked fairly well as I remember riding shotgun around Waterford Hills in one while we were bumper to bumper with Mike Stimac's CS Daytona (keep in mind that car was a prototype and had a prototype "track" suspension under it with Bridgestone R011 street tires on it and upgraded brake pads). The thing about that stock system was it had a tendency to overwork the front brakes. It also didn't offer the same advantage of the torque biasing LSD in the corners in that it didn't draw the car to the apex. It helped to keep the power planted, but that was about it. I personally still prefer a true torque biasing LSD in that situation.

I forgot to add that the CSRT-4 traction system did NOT limit wheel spin all together like Neil's system does. The stock system's primary purpose was to eliminate differential wheel speed in on-power situations. So, it is still completely possible to simply spin the tires to oblivion in those cars without Neil's "Driver Mod".


Give me a week or two... gota see how much play money I have left after Christmas...

Same here. I have to pay some more money for my engine and see what I have left before I commit to something else for this car that doesn't really make it drivable with the new engine once it's complete. I would LOVE to have this product for my car, however!


No idea, I don't think they had abs drums, I was joking around, lol.

To my knowledge drum cars of that era didn't get ABS. You *MIGHT* be able to find it on something like a Y-body (Imperial or New Yorker), or a '94/'95 J body, but I think if they had ABS they also had rear disc. The good news is then you could put rear disc on your car! :thumb:

[John B]

To my knowledge drum cars of that era didn't get ABS. You *MIGHT* be able to find it on something like a Y-body (Imperial or New Yorker), or a '94/'95 J body, but I think if they had ABS they also had rear disc. The good news is then you could put rear disc on your car! :thumb:

OK, thanks. Looks like a major mod job for a relatively small gain (in my case).

[bakes]

There is a one than one way to skin a cat .
1. find a disc brake hub with a abs tone ring and install on the drum they fit
2 install a complete abs rear disc set up
3 get a tone wheel and machine it to fit the tone wheel and use a sesor from a drum abs Xj jeep

Somewhere there is a tread i listed the parts needed go back 2 years

[turbovanman²]

What models might have that?


OK, thanks. Looks like a major mod job for a relatively small gain (in my case).

You should have rear disc anyhow, drums suck, ;)

Putting discs on is cake, even YOU can do it, :eyebrows:

[John B]

You should have rear disc anyhow, drums suck, ;)

Putting discs on is cake, even YOU can do it, :eyebrows: I'm the guy that can't get a clip out of a waste gate actuator arm without pulling the head, remember?

[turbovanman²]

I'm the guy that can't get a clip out of a waste gate actuator arm without pulling the head, remember?

That's why I said it, even YOU can, lol.

[Ondonti]

Are there any actual before and after performance numbers at the track? Even after 4 years? I think its silly to ask for 8 valve evidence when there should be a mountain of evidence on SRT-4's, not just conjecture.

Its easy to say .4 seconds in the 60' times two plus .5 seconds shifting. NSRT have crap for shifting so this should be a huge improvement. Where are the 13.9 second minus 1.3 seconds = 12.6 seconds stock NSRT4. Are videos of 13.9 second cars supposed to prove something? I have done 13.9@101 on garbage tires and open diff so 13.9@104 with fancy controls is...I know I sure don't have any sort of driver mod. When is the last time you saw a bone stock srt-4 that was racomg either? Unknown mods + traction control is a worthless comparison.

All these years and still not a peep of help for a 3.0. Thanks. Plenty of pretending and leading on though.

I see a post 3 years ago from cindy about this device and the soon to come data. 3 years ago.
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f366/what-does-tcs-do-me-476347/

This thread shows no statistically significant difference.
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f335/tcs-results-questions-1-8-mile-381307/

This shows one person with a highly modded car running 12.7 and 12.8 once but then went slower on more power and a nice 2.4 60' on a 114mph car with TCS. He once got a 1.9 60' and maybe on that 12.7 pass too.
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f335/first-track-outing-tcs-440396/
My buddy Josh Simon nailed down 2.0 60's on Azenis and would probably have been able to run a 1.9 on whatever tires these guys are using. He never got to use nice street tires.

All I can seem to find are a huge pile of threads about troubleshooting problems with the device or with the car after installation.


Simplest way to sell something is to stack up evidence. What I am reading is showing me that the device is worthless if you don't understand how to configure it so it may be that nobody in the srt4 world ever figured it out. There are a few decent looking 60's out there but otherwise I can't find anything. Basically 2-3 cars have any info out there that is useful, and things are a bit vague since I don't think people there like giving advice when they finally figure things out.

[trannybuster]

If you want to get better gotta try something new, TCS isnt new BUT 'we' have never got to take advantage of it. Your right, it needs to be setup properly, like anything in life; if its poorly done it wont be worth shi$$. Take off your blinders and maybe do more 'intensive search'

Now, this isn't a new issue in drag racing. The NHRA has addressed this problem in the last year by not allowing certain MSD ignitions to be used in NHRA competition, specifically the 7531 with a slew-rate rev-limiter that is a de facto traction control device. Although a version of it is being sold like crazy to NHRA sports compact racers and to NMRA and NMCA racers where it is legal. According to a source at MSD, they are selling them as quickly as they can make them to those who run "outlaw" high-dollar, 10.5 wide-tire races with heavy "street legal" race cars. On top of that, a gentleman by the name of Shannon Davis has been selling (on the internet for several years) a traction control device that he installs in a stock MSD ignition box. He makes no bones about what he is doing and claims that it is "virtually undetectable." You can check this guy's product out at www.moretraction.com (http://www.moretraction.com/) .

Think they dont work?

[glhs727]

yea, Brent, I don't have any numbers from the track. mostly because my car is a daily driver, not a race car, and as such rarely sees any track time. Although we did run the car at the sdac event in Cincinatti a couple years ago on street tires and the car ran 9 runs all between 12.23-12.28 at 116/117 mph with the TCS so I can say it helped with consistency! Where the TCS really shines is on a street car on street tires under street conditions where many of us will tell you we have traction issues. I don't normally have traction issues at the track. We run slicks and the track closest to my house, preps the track very well where James can cut a 1.75 60 ft. He doesn't complain about tire spin there. Now the 2-step that the TCS offers is very nice at the track, and useful. Truly, the best way to "prove" it is by taking a person for a ride. I rode in Neil's car under snowy conditions, and it was night and day. I can tell a noticeable difference on my own car under just regular driving and some stoplight to stop light action with the TCS on and the TCS off. I don't care that much about the naysayers. If you won't buy one becuase you don't beleive it will work, or your not convinced based on the other people using it, that is OK. There are plenty of people that use this product and are happy with it in other applications, and from my own firsthand experience, I know it will work. Eventually the others that get in on the GB with start reporting their experiences, and then you can decide whether you feel this is a product you want to own or not.

[nemiro]

It's all good. I will be the first to admit that I should have some official timeslips posted. There are a few out there, and I will link them later on. I have another solution in the works to get more posted, and will let everyone know real soon.

As for your comment complaining that there is nothing for the 3.0 - well, I can tell you that you might reconsider that career in motivational speaking after a comment like that!

[BadAssPerformance]

yea, Brent, I don't have any numbers from the track. mostly because my car is a daily driver, not a race car, and as such rarely sees any track time. Although we did run the car at the sdac event in Cincinatti a couple years ago on street tires and the car ran 9 runs all between 12.23-12.28 at 116/117 mph with the TCS so I can say it helped with consistency!

I remember this... quick car. :nod: I remember seeing it run there, and even racing against it in the other lane. :thumb:

You mention you dont have any numbers from the track... yet ran it with TCS at Cinci. It sounds like there is some track data for TCS on street tires... What were the 60's on those runs?

EDIT... found the timeslip

JT__vs__James
.240__R/T__.375
1.791__60'__1.852
5.069__330'__5.255
7.670__1/8__7.942
97.61__mph__92.77
9.849_1000'_10.273
11.700__1/4__12.251
122.63_mph__114.38

Decent 60' and run for sure, but those don't look like street radials?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWliu9ATQ_M


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVrf61uqC9U

[turbovanman²]

yea, Brent, I don't have any numbers from the track. mostly because my car is a daily driver, not a race car, and as such rarely sees any track time. Although we did run the car at the sdac event in Cincinatti a couple years ago on street tires and the car ran 9 runs all between 12.23-12.28 at 116/117 mph with the TCS so I can say it helped with consistency! Where the TCS really shines is on a street car on street tires under street conditions where many of us will tell you we have traction issues. I don't normally have traction issues at the track. We run slicks and the track closest to my house, preps the track very well where James can cut a 1.75 60 ft. He doesn't complain about tire spin there. Now the 2-step that the TCS offers is very nice at the track, and useful. Truly, the best way to "prove" it is by taking a person for a ride. I rode in Neil's car under snowy conditions, and it was night and day. I can tell a noticeable difference on my own car under just regular driving and some stoplight to stop light action with the TCS on and the TCS off. I don't care that much about the naysayers. If you won't buy one becuase you don't beleive it will work, or your not convinced based on the other people using it, that is OK. There are plenty of people that use this product and are happy with it in other applications, and from my own firsthand experience, I know it will work. Eventually the others that get in on the GB with start reporting their experiences, and then you can decide whether you feel this is a product you want to own or not.

Cindy, people want proof, not heresay, to say you don't care what people think and should simply step up the plate is pretty ignorant and to go meh, who needs proof, just buy one, wow, :(

[tryingbe]

Think they dont work?

There is a difference between "don't work" and "how well it works"

Can we agree this claim is a pretty big claim?


Typical 60' times for a stock SRT-4 are in the 2.3-2.4s range. Better drivers might be able to pull that down to a 2.1. (On slicks, stock SRT's might pull off a 1.7-1.8, for reference.) With TCS and street tires, the same SRT-4 will pull off consistent 1.8-1.9 60' times.

I've done the search, this is the best back to back example I found
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f335/tcs-results-questions-1-8-mile-381307/

.018 second between this person's best time 60ft with and without TCS is not worth that $400 - $500 to me, when you can use the same money to buy tires.

I'm done. It's obvious FWD or ND do not have the 60ft data of this TCS device themselves. All they can do is to say, "look at the customers' results". When you ask for those, "search them yourself". If customer service is that bad before money is exchange...

[glhs727]

I can tell you that I have NOT done any back to back TCS on/TCS off at the track. Again, my main point was that it is more needed on street tire car on the street than a RACE CAR with slicks on a prepped track. Afterall we are talking traction control. If your slicks are hooking up and you are not spinning, I don't see where the TCS would actually kick in a make a difference. The difference would be on the street where people do have a regular traction problem. How can I show back to back times on the street that all you naysayers would not scoff at? No matter what we do, I'm sure trying be will say it isn't enough and our customer service sucks becuase we don't have enough proof for him. Nevermind the tons of other happy customers that own srt-4's and caliber srt-4's that are happy with the TCS units... appearantly that doesn't count.....

[dwh4784]

If enough people step up for the SOHC version that I'm able to get one I will do back to back testing on street tires. My car is nowhere near a beast but it spins like a mofo in 1st or 2nd on the street. I don't want to buy slicks or DR's and a pair of spare wheels so this seems like a decent option for a car that is daily driven and might see the strip once or twice a year.

[BadAssPerformance]

I can tell you that I have NOT done any back to back TCS on/TCS off at the track. Again, my main point was that it is more needed on street tire car on the street than a RACE CAR with slicks on a prepped track.

Maybe not back to back, but on a slick tire, with TCS on a prepped track it had a 1.85 60' at least according to the timeslip I have. If it can also run a 1.85 60' on a street radial, I would be very impressed.


Afterall we are talking traction control. If your slicks are hooking up and you are not spinning, I don't see where the TCS would actually kick in a make a difference.

I spin 24.5" slicks thru 3 gears on a prepped track. If a traction control device could fix this. I'm listening!


The difference would be on the street where people do have a regular traction problem. How can I show back to back times on the street that all you naysayers would not scoff at?

I think there are two distinct customer groups out there. Those that want better traction on the street and may never take their car to a track, and those of us that like to take our street driven cars to the track.

The "never plan to go to the track" folks are probably well satisfied with some G-tech videos and 0-60 times. I think we all can agree that traction on the street is difficult at best with higher HP FWD's.

The "we like to go to the track" folks hear "XX better 60's" and are only looking for the data to back up this claim. We all like to race and are tyically on a budget so every dollar spent on a making a car quicker counts, so if something proves that it can knocks tenths off 60' we are listening.


Nevermind the tons of other happy customers that own srt-4's and caliber srt-4's that are happy with the TCS units... appearantly that doesn't count.....

Great that there are tons of happy TCS customers! Many are reading this thread and would like to be added to that list of happy TCS customers. Do any of the tons have back to back data?

[glhs727]

Maybe not back to back, but on a slick tire, with TCS on a prepped track it had a 1.85 60' at least according to the timeslip I have. If it can also run a 1.85 60' on a street radial, I would be very impressed.


since when has an sdac event had a well prepped track???? I'm hoping sdac22 will change that!!!

[nemiro]

OK, you guys are right. The product is not going to be able to prove itself to you. I have some slips here to post, but a couple of the last comments just pushed my decision. TCS will not be available en masse for the SOHC. There will some be some systems available in a limited quantity to the R/T people who stepped forward. I may build one or two SOHC boxes, but that remains to be seen. Time slips will be posted soon, nonetheless.


Cindy-
Will you kindly remove the option for the SOHC box from the group buy?

[turbovanman²]

OK, you guys are right. The product is not going to be able to prove itself to you. I have some slips here to post, but a couple of the last comments just pushed my decision. TCS will not be available en masse for the SOHC. There will some be some systems available in a limited quantity to the R/T people who stepped forward. I may build one or two SOHC boxes, but that remains to be seen. Time slips will be posted soon, nonetheless.


Cindy-
Will you kindly remove the option for the SOHC box from the group buy?

That's the spirit, well done, :confused: :banghead:

[dodgeshadowchik]

OK, you guys are right. The product is not going to be able to prove itself to you. I have some slips here to post, but a couple of the last comments just pushed my decision. TCS will not be available en masse for the SOHC. There will some be some systems available in a limited quantity to the R/T people who stepped forward. I may build one or two SOHC boxes, but that remains to be seen. Time slips will be posted soon, nonetheless.


Cindy-
Will you kindly remove the option for the SOHC box from the group buy?

No, you don't. Otherwise these would've been posted already. Now you are just playing psychological games.

[RoadWarrior222]

It reads like the trolls on the UFO, Bigfoot etc forums, "I have close up pix and physical evidence, but now I'm not gonna post it, because you were mean to me while I teased you for 2 weeks"

[BadAssPerformance]

since when has an sdac event had a well prepped track???? I'm hoping sdac22 will change that!!!

A slick tire car without TCS should be capable of running a 1.85 60' on an unprepped track... at least I have done this.

For a track rental, several SDAC's have had decently prepped tracks. It is difficult to prep a track well with so few slick cars running and the track getting chewed up by street tires. You should know this. SDAC-21 had several racers with new personal best times, we plan to do our best with SDAC-22 :thumb:


OK, you guys are right. The product is not going to be able to prove itself to you.

It will if you post some 60' data to back up your claims.

If I crack the throttle on the street at 80mph I smoke the tires... I'm interested. Unfortunately, I see 60' claims that I have seen zero evidence of. Sorry if you thinks that makes me skeptical, but the onus is on the seller to prove the product.


I have some slips here to post, but a couple of the last comments just pushed my decision. TCS will not be available en masse for the SOHC.

This is hilarious. Please do not blame your business decision on a few racers looking for product results data on your existing product that tons of satisfied customers use.


Time slips will be posted soon, nonetheless.

Cool :thumb:

So far we have seen an SRT4 TCS do a 1.85 60' with slicks. Still waiting on street radial data. It would be awesome if you have some video to go with the timeslip so we can see it in action too :nod:

[dodgeshadowchik]

You know, it's great to see things in development for these cars. Kudos to that! However, what happened here is a breakdown in marketing this product.
When you come out with something new, you want to display its features and benefits. You did this, and that's good... however, there's ALWAYS going to be people who ask for proof of the features and benefits; and this is where this thread has failed and thus created an aura of doubt about its ability to perform as advertised.

Take Ford, for example, and their new EcoBoost v6 offered in the F150. What could possibly be the benefit of a twin turbo v6 over a reliable v8? Given the past that turbochargers can be finicky and expensive, how's the durability of this engine? Instead of just telling people "trust us, it works," Ford did a 100-something hour durability test on this engine where it was run at full throttle and some other tests. They videotaped it and it's easily accessible to anyone who wants to see it on their website. They also brought in people on the show floor to take apart that very engine to show consumers how well it is designed and that it CAN take loads typically left to v8 powered trucks.
http://www.ford.com/new/f-150-torture-test/

Now Ford is a big company with a ton of R and D money, but it is the concept that I'm trying to get across. This is all that was asked for in this thread. Just some proof of some facts. How can you market a product without being able to clearly display its features and benefits? No one is beating you up about making it or not interested in it for these cars. They would just like to know if their hard-earned dollars is WORTH being spent on this product. That's all! I guess I'm not sure why its so difficult to run a test car at the track on street tires a few times?

[trannybuster]

Still a bit dumbfounded how many of you doubt traction control devices or honestly believe it 'wont help', seriously? Ive suffered your mantra, 'timeslips or we dont believe it' ,but fortunately your few among us, I dont need a timeslip. I highly doubt anyone can make the same amount of adjustments to tire slip in your head then relay it to your foot in the same amount of time a TCS device can....so you've got something better to offer, other than ridicule? Well out with it then! You cant, other than the same old rocks and stones your use to working with. Funny how NHRA wont allow these, because they know they work, but everyone still needs proof for "our cars" lol....didnt realize our cars were that much more technically advanced compared to those pos dragster/outlaw car that have hundreds of thousands invested and break rules just to use this device...if I had just known.
Us sohc would appreciate a product of this caliber..tired of fighting non-traction in my street car and IVe used drag radials(joke) and as stated slicks are not an option. Always a naysayer around every corner.....

[BadAssPerformance]

Still a bit dumbfounded how many of you doubt traction control devices or honestly believe it 'wont help', seriously?

I think you are missing the point.

Again, I think we all agree that "it will work", just for those if us that actually race, we would like some proof of "how well it will work" to back ups specific claims made ... there is a distinct difference.

[turbovanman²]

I think you are missing the point.

Again, I think we all agree that "it will work", just for those if us that actually race, we would like some proof of "how well it will work" to back ups specific claims made ... there is a distinct difference.

Exactly and for the record, I am NOT hounding Cindy, I just feel we need more than a, "it works so buy it" routine, especially if he's doing a limited run and in the future, could be paying over $500.

[nemiro]

No games, I just don't have the patience for it. NO one was forcing anyone to buy one of these. They have a good reputation in both SRT circles, and I honestly thought it would be easier to link slips than it has been. Perhaps I could have marketed differently - no, I should have, but whatever, it is done. Lesson learned. C'est la vie.

To be honest, I have been around this market since some of you were in diapers. It has been, and always will be the cheapest of the cheap for the Chrysler marque. The 2.3 turbo crowd is the same for the Ford marque. Each marque has its models that has a similar arrangement. My mistake was to publish some claims, and I did not have the data immediately at hand to show you. Shame on me. The pile-on that many of you have participated on is dumbfounding. And it's also just dumb. Some of you who have come out almost violently have and had no intention of buying the system. Perhaps you didn't believe in it. Perhaps you didn't have the cash. Who cares? So why not just let it go, and let other interested parties buy it, try it, and see what you think then? Some here already know the system from the SRT market, and others have a firm grasp of traction control in general. Each of you who griped has about no right to EVER complain that no one supports this market, or makes new, innovative products for their niche market cars. Amazing.


I *will* post up some time slips this evening. When I do, be confident in your decision to come out so hard against the system. Be so glad that you killed it off, before you even got to try it.

[John B]

Wow. And here I thought I might have a compelling reason to put disks on the back finally.

[glhs727]

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------


That's the spirit, well done, :confused: :banghead:

maybe if you didn't act like such a doucher.......

[glhs727]

Gosh, I have one in my car and I can tell you that it makes a difference. I don't need to be at a track to know that it works for me. Over several hundred of these units have already been sold to the caliber and neon srt-4 models and I don't see people complaining that's it's crap. If you are skepital, fine, don't buy one. But there are a lot of people that seem to understand the benefits of TCS, and some willing to help bring this product to the market. Those people with be rewarded with a great price on a great product. (providing I can talk Neil into making then after he clams down) The rest can just sit on the sidelines and wait. But to keep bashing a vendor and a manufacturer who actually wants to bring a new product to our tiny niche market is NOT good for our hobby

[BadAssPerformance]

No games, I just don't have the patience for it.

Don't kid yourself, your patiece is strong, 8 pages strong! :nod: LOL...


To be honest, I have been around this market since some of you were in diapers. It has been, and always will be the cheapest of the cheap for the Chrysler marque.

Yep, I remember meeting you at SDAC-7 and seeing the CSX-ND :thumb:

So you should definitely know that its not just the thrifty (like that? THRIFTY!, like the CSX-T!? LOL, sorry, I crack myself up.. its Friday afternoon now, right?) community, its the many out there running 12's in a $1500 hotrod that find it hard to budget for a few hundred buck gizmo for their bang for the buck racer... They WANT the fancy stuff, but it takes some good data to dig all the spare change out of all their parts cars to go buy it!

I'll say it again... or just quote it cuz its Friday, LOL!


I think you are missing the point.

Again, I think we all agree that "it will work", just for those if us that actually race, we would like some proof of "how well it will work" to back ups specific claims made ... there is a distinct difference.


I *will* post up some time slips this evening. When I do, be confident in your decision to come out so hard against the system. Be so glad that you killed it off, before you even got to try it.

Patiently waiting. Curiously intrigued by the interesting choice of a threatening tactic.

Again... please don't blame those with limited budgets for your your business decision :thumb:

[nemiro]

You know, it's great to see things in development for these cars. Kudos to that! However, what happened here is a breakdown in marketing this product.
When you come out with something new, you want to display its features and benefits. You did this, and that's good... however, there's ALWAYS going to be people who ask for proof of the features and benefits; and this is where this thread has failed and thus created an aura of doubt about its ability to perform as advertised.

Take Ford, for example, and their new EcoBoost v6 offered in the F150. What could possibly be the benefit of a twin turbo v6 over a reliable v8? Given the past that turbochargers can be finicky and expensive, how's the durability of this engine? Instead of just telling people "trust us, it works," Ford did a 100-something hour durability test on this engine where it was run at full throttle and some other tests. They videotaped it and it's easily accessible to anyone who wants to see it on their website. They also brought in people on the show floor to take apart that very engine to show consumers how well it is designed and that it CAN take loads typically left to v8 powered trucks.
http://www.ford.com/new/f-150-torture-test/

Now Ford is a big company with a ton of R and D money, but it is the concept that I'm trying to get across. This is all that was asked for in this thread. Just some proof of some facts. How can you market a product without being able to clearly display its features and benefits? No one is beating you up about making it or not interested in it for these cars. They would just like to know if their hard-earned dollars is WORTH being spent on this product. That's all! I guess I'm not sure why its so difficult to run a test car at the track on street tires a few times?

And yes, data is, and will continue to be compiled. It will be released. The idea of this thread was to generate interest (which it certainly has!) and to get a few of these units into the hands of people who believed in the product already. Once it went mainstream, then the market in general would either accept it or reject it.

[turbovanman²]

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------



maybe if you didn't act like such a doucher.......

That's funny Cindy, we ask for info and you tell us to just believe you? Sorry, this isn't the SRT forums where kids believe you can make gold from candy.

As for the other part, again, truly sorry for trying to get you sales, I want one but simply can't swing it at this time and would like to in spring when I get my ducks in a row, probably the same with a few others, but whatever, you seem to want this now or never. I am sorry I ever wanted one, shame on me. I'll bite my tongue on saying anything else.


No games, I just don't have the patience for it. NO one was forcing anyone to buy one of these. They have a good reputation in both SRT circles, and I honestly thought it would be easier to link slips than it has been. Perhaps I could have marketed differently - no, I should have, but whatever, it is done. Lesson learned. C'est la vie.

To be honest, I have been around this market since some of you were in diapers. It has been, and always will be the cheapest of the cheap for the Chrysler marque. The 2.3 turbo crowd is the same for the Ford marque. Each marque has its models that has a similar arrangement. My mistake was to publish some claims, and I did not have the data immediately at hand to show you. Shame on me. The pile-on that many of you have participated on is dumbfounding. And it's also just dumb. Some of you who have come out almost violently have and had no intention of buying the system. Perhaps you didn't believe in it. Perhaps you didn't have the cash. Who cares? So why not just let it go, and let other interested parties buy it, try it, and see what you think then? Some here already know the system from the SRT market, and others have a firm grasp of traction control in general. Each of you who griped has about no right to EVER complain that no one supports this market, or makes new, innovative products for their niche market cars. Amazing.


I *will* post up some time slips this evening. When I do, be confident in your decision to come out so hard against the system. Be so glad that you killed it off, before you even got to try it.

Sorry Neil but that is the most piss poor attitude I've seen in awhile. People are asking for proof and you've got the nerve to get upset and pull out?

[BadAssPerformance]

Gosh, I have one in my car and I can tell you that it makes a difference. I don't need to be at a track to know that it works for me. Over several hundred of these units have already been sold to the caliber and neon srt-4 models and I don't see people complaining that's it's crap. If you are skepital, fine, don't buy one. But there are a lot of people that seem to understand the benefits of TCS, and some willing to help bring this product to the market. Those people with be rewarded with a great price on a great product. (providing I can talk Neil into making then after he clams down) The rest can just sit on the sidelines and wait. But to keep bashing a vendor and a manufacturer who actually wants to bring a new product to our tiny niche market is NOT good for our hobby

When is asking a vendor to provide proof of claims "bashing" ?

again:


I think you are missing the point.

Again, I think we all agree that "it will work", just for those if us that actually race, we would like some proof of "how well it will work" to back ups specific claims made ... there is a distinct difference.

and


I think there are two distinct customer groups out there. Those that want better traction on the street and may never take their car to a track, and those of us that like to take our street driven cars to the track.

The "never plan to go to the track" folks are probably well satisfied with some G-tech videos and 0-60 times. I think we all can agree that traction on the street is difficult at best with higher HP FWD's.

The "we like to go to the track" folks hear "XX better 60's" and are only looking for the data to back up this claim. We all like to race and are tyically on a budget so every dollar spent on a making a car quicker counts, so if something proves that it can knocks tenths off 60' we are listening.

and


Great that there are tons of happy TCS customers! Many are reading this thread and would like to be added to that list of happy TCS customers. Do any of the tons have back to back data?

[trannybuster]

^^Where do we send the case of beer to knock edge off his nerves(I understand totally how he feels BTW)? I want my TCS...:hail:

[nemiro]

Patiently waiting. Curiously intrigued by the interesting choice of a threatening tactic.

Again... please don't blame those with limited budgets for your your business decision :thumb:

No threat here. I'm simply not going to do it. I had a narrow window in the development cycle to bring these in, and it is not worth it. Honestly, there are how many TD fans out there? A few thousand (I'm being real generous). If 1% actually stepped up and bought one of these, that would be what.... 30 systems? Stack that next to the Hemi, Mustang, and Camaro markets (of which TCS has been already developed, and is in some test cars as I type this). How many units a year are we talking? That's simple business.

R/T units will come out, as development is done, and it works. I was hoping that the owner of the test car would post up, to give his impressions, but I really don't blame him if he doesn't want to participate at this point. SOHC was a logical next step, but changes have to be made. Software modified, specific wiring harnesses made. Installation trials have to be conducted, and instructions written. This is no small task, and it doesn't happen in a single session.

Again, no threat. Best to just let this thread die out, but before it does, I will post up some links to slips, as I said I would. I will when I get home tonight. My main point in continuing to type this out is two-fold. I will acknowledge the failure for proof. The claims are backed up from peoples' results, but typing up peoples' times without a scan of their time slip is not going to do it for you guys. As for the other point, you guys must come to a realization that what happened here amounted to cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you looked in the group buy thread, you could see that this was probably going to go through. If you had just sat back and watched, you more than likely would see a new product become available (before some of the bigger markets even got it!), and you would get plenty of feedback. Instead, you stomped all over it.

For you personally, JT, you saw what TCS did at the track, and even on slicks, anyone who has drag raced enough knows that it takes quite a bit of skill to get consistent times. Slicks do not equate automatic sub 2.0 60' times - but it makes it easier, just like TCS. Yes, the street is where TCS shines, but there is no way to quantify the benefits - you just have to experience it for yourself.

Videos of TCS in action were posted. Numbers (albeit generated from a CSRT's internal instruments) were posted. Still wasn't enough. The ESS function (which is almost identical to other products' functions) has been proven time and again in a whole range of vehicles. Just knowing that you have available a true WOT shift function, which cuts incredible amounts of time off 1/4 mile times, plus saving parts is extremely well documented. And TCS has it. There's no snake oil here, and as you can tell, I still have faith in the product.

[trannybuster]

In summary, is a traction control device for everyone? Probably not. But when it comes to high horse power street cars, I would say it should be a heavily considered option. The best way I describe it is like horses. Owning a really strong and fast horse is fun, but if you can’t ride it without getting bucked off, who cares. Needless to say the automotive community is a very diverse one, and a traction control box is not for everyone, but for the few that give it a try, I think you will be hooked.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

"The Most Innovative Device That I've Seen In Drag Racing Since I Quit"
---"Big Daddy" Don Garlits
And you guys want a better indorsement...WOW

I know how well does this unit work! I think everyone is much to skeptical here!

[dwh4784]

Great, well cancel my deposit then Cindy. I for one was super stoked for this, and am now bummed.

[turbovanman²]

No threat here. I'm simply not going to do it. I had a narrow window in the development cycle to bring these in, and it is not worth it. Honestly, there are how many TD fans out there? A few thousand (I'm being real generous). If 1% actually stepped up and bought one of these, that would be what.... 30 systems? Stack that next to the Hemi, Mustang, and Camaro markets (of which TCS has been already developed, and is in some test cars as I type this). How many units a year are we talking? That's simple business.

R/T units will come out, as development is done, and it works. I was hoping that the owner of the test car would post up, to give his impressions, but I really don't blame him if he doesn't want to participate at this point. SOHC was a logical next step, but changes have to be made. Software modified, specific wiring harnesses made. Installation trials have to be conducted, and instructions written. This is no small task, and it doesn't happen in a single session.

Again, no threat. Best to just let this thread die out, but before it does, I will post up some links to slips, as I said I would. I will when I get home tonight. My main point in continuing to type this out is two-fold. I will acknowledge the failure for proof. The claims are backed up from peoples' results, but typing up peoples' times without a scan of their time slip is not going to do it for you guys. As for the other point, you guys must come to a realization that what happened here amounted to cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you looked in the group buy thread, you could see that this was probably going to go through. If you had just sat back and watched, you more than likely would see a new product become available (before some of the bigger markets even got it!), and you would get plenty of feedback. Instead, you stomped all over it.

For you personally, JT, you saw what TCS did at the track, and even on slicks, anyone who has drag raced enough knows that it takes quite a bit of skill to get consistent times. Slicks do not equate automatic sub 2.0 60' times - but it makes it easier, just like TCS. Yes, the street is where TCS shines, but there is no way to quantify the benefits - you just have to experience it for yourself.

Videos of TCS in action were posted. Numbers (albeit generated from a CSRT's internal instruments) were posted. Still wasn't enough. The ESS function (which is almost identical to other products' functions) has been proven time and again in a whole range of vehicles. Just knowing that you have available a true WOT shift function, which cuts incredible amounts of time off 1/4 mile times, plus saving parts is extremely well documented. And TCS has it. There's no snake oil here, and as you can tell, I still have faith in the product.

Wow, I've read and watched you struggle with cars, engine swaps etc over the years, your TIII Neon would have had me shooting myself yet you never gave up and I read this, weak, you can call me any name you want but come on Neil, what a cop out.


In summary, is a traction control device for everyone? Probably not. But when it comes to high horse power street cars, I would say it should be a heavily considered option. The best way I describe it is like horses. Owning a really strong and fast horse is fun, but if you can’t ride it without getting bucked off, who cares. Needless to say the automotive community is a very diverse one, and a traction control box is not for everyone, but for the few that give it a try, I think you will be hooked.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

"The Most Innovative Device That I've Seen In Drag Racing Since I Quit"
---"Big Daddy" Don Garlits
And you guys want a better indorsement...WOW

I know how well does this unit work! I think everyone is much to skeptical here!

Didn't know Don Garlits was using Neils TCS, on an old school TM, thanks, :confused:

[BadAssPerformance]

No threat here.

Then what was this.. sounds threatening?:


When I do, be confident in your decision to come out so hard against the system. Be

Whatever, nevermind.


R/T units will come out, as development is done, and it works.

Awesome! :thumb:


If you looked in the group buy thread, you could see that this was probably going to go through. If you had just sat back and watched, you more than likely would see a new product become available (before some of the bigger markets even got it!), and you would get plenty of feedback. Instead, you stomped all over it.

Did you read any of the multiple times I stated that this is a good product for the street and the few of us racers interested are the only ones that want to see proof? Again, dont blame those of us that are curious for your business decision, when plenty of other want it.


For you personally, JT, you saw what TCS did at the track, and even on slicks, anyone who has drag raced enough knows that it takes quite a bit of skill to get consistent times. Slicks do not equate automatic sub 2.0 60' times - but it makes it easier, just like TCS.

Sure, it takes some time to dial a car in on slicks, tire pressure, etc (just like it is required to dial in a TCS) and once that is done, yes, slicks will net consistant sub 2.0 60's. Maybe you don't drag race on slicks enough to know this? Heck consistant 1.90's are easy on a car dialed in on drag radials.

Consistant 1.8's on street radials!? (not drag radials) If TCS does this, there will be a line out the virtual door. This is why so many have asked for proof, for 9 pages.


Videos of TCS in action were posted. Numbers (albeit generated from a CSRT's internal instruments) were posted. Still wasn't enough.

Wasn't enough? Well, 60' improvements were stated, where did those come from? CSRT's dont give 60's?

[trannybuster]

Wow, I've read and watched you struggle with cars, engine swaps etc over the years, your TIII Neon would have had me shooting myself yet you never gave up and I read this, weak, you can call me any name you want but come on Neil, what a cop out.



Didn't know Don Garlits was using Neils TCS, on an old school TM, thanks, :confused:

Im gonna sock you dude..lol...just you never mind and get me a total!!! :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

im gonna sock you dude..lol...just you never mind and get me a total!!! :thumb:

lol!!!!

[nemiro]

I misread you then, my apologies. CSRT give 0-60, 1/4 mile, and a few other measurements. I posted them up. 60' times came from some of the original development testing, and early customers posting up. No, I cannot find that info anymore, because the original manufacturer (NDE, not ND Performance) is no longer a vendor on any of the forums, so that info is long lost, unfortunately. All I can do is show some of the remnants.

Simon: Not weak at all. If you read back to the very beginning of this thread, Cindy announced TCS would be available for R/T's. It wasn't until later on that we decided we'd try to support SOHC cars, as most of the development was already done, and from my end, all that was needed was to transfer bits and pieces of the technology around to make it fit. Then create harnesses, instructions, etc.

As for proof, you guys asked for videos, it took me a few days, I posted them. You asked for links, I posted some (others did, too), you wanted more. Trying to hunt down net ready timeslips was a bigger job than I imagined. Again, when I get home, I will post up some.

I'm still not dumping the resources into the SOHC. I have one running in Chris' GLHS, and I know it will work, but it needs more development to go mainstream. Developing for the TD market is thankless, and it's not that people are asking for proof, it's the attitude. It is likely that development will be a break-even deal, and as a manufacturer, that's a non-starter, anyway. Why should I take a chance, when people like you won't support it, despite being given enough information to show that it does work? You've seen videos and other info. Because you haven't seen a time slip? Please....weak.

Hoenstly, from my perspective, it's like, why bother? The TD guys will see when Mustangs and Camaros have it.

[chilort]

Developing for the TD market is thankless, and it's not that people are asking for proof, it's the attitude.

This is so very and sadly true.

I'd say that a major issue that you are running across is "once bitten, twice shy." Unfortunately, the TD market has been so full of so many shysters for so many years that even people that would be, that could be, that want to be interested in what you are doing just cannot buy in. So they attack, and with very good intentions (to protect themselves and others), instead.

I'd like to see the SOHC version get developed. But I can understand why you wouldn't. Nearly everyone around here, including many of the vendors, seem to be real dicks. Other communities, other MOPAR communities, are not like this. I had a guy send me parts BEFORE I paid him for my Dodge Sweptline truck and another guy sent me parts for FREE just because I'd recently gotten married. These were people I'd NEVER MET IN MY LIFE. Can any of you imagine that happening here? I've met a few good folks here but I don't trust many in the TD/TM world until I see them face to face. Its a sad fact of life here and that's what you are running up against.

If you tuck tail and run, I think you'd be justified. $0.02.

[turbovanman²]

I misread you then, my apologies. CSRT give 0-60, 1/4 mile, and a few other measurements. I posted them up. 60' times came from some of the original development testing, and early customers posting up. No, I cannot find that info anymore, because the original manufacturer (NDE, not ND Performance) is no longer a vendor on any of the forums, so that info is long lost, unfortunately. All I can do is show some of the remnants.

Simon: Not weak at all. If you read back to the very beginning of this thread, Cindy announced TCS would be available for R/T's. It wasn't until later on that we decided we'd try to support SOHC cars, as most of the development was already done, and from my end, all that was needed was to transfer bits and pieces of the technology around to make it fit. Then create harnesses, instructions, etc.

As for proof, you guys asked for videos, it took me a few days, I posted them. You asked for links, I posted some (others did, too), you wanted more. Trying to hunt down net ready timeslips was a bigger job than I imagined. Again, when I get home, I will post up some.

I'm still not dumping the resources into the SOHC. I have one running in Chris' GLHS, and I know it will work, but it needs more development to go mainstream. Developing for the TD market is thankless, and it's not that people are asking for proof, it's the attitude. It is likely that development will be a break-even deal, and as a manufacturer, that's a non-starter, anyway. Why should I take a chance, when people like you won't support it, despite being given enough information to show that it does work? You've seen videos and other info. Because you haven't seen a time slip? Please....weak.

Hoenstly, from my perspective, it's like, why bother? The TD guys will see when Mustangs and Camaros have it.

I get accused from Cindy of reading comprehension issues yet you suffer from it. I am not going to requote but from the beginning, I've said I wanted one, but again, for the 15th time, CAN NOT swing it now but can in the spring when Xmas calms down. Again, I've suggested since the start for Cindy to do a gauging interest thread for wait for it, SPRING and she shitt all over me, I was even willing to put a small deposit down.

As for proof, it would be nice to have on one of our cars, not an SRT/NSRT etc car and I am most pissed about Cindy's buy one because it works and I don't need to prove anything else BS, which works with the SRT guys, then followed by your childish well screw you guys, I won't make them anymore tantrum.

If you truly feel that way, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I think your making a huge mistake but whatever.

Anyhow, I am done, sorry I wanted one, again, shame on me, :(

[Kryp2nitE]

Isn't that part of what a group buy is for? To get another group using it to give results?

I'd be willing to bet the original test cars have gone back and forth testing a lot of things out, making modifications over a long period of time. If you are looking for a "I plugged in X mod and gained X time" wait until the first group tests it. Seems simple enough.

[nemiro]

Last I am going to address it to you Simon. You are having trouble separating me from Cindy. The group buy thread is where your complaint with her belongs, not here. Here is where technical discussion belongs. I think I have explained that a group buy in the spring probably won't work, because I have a gap in development, now. Yes, the timing is pretty bad for some, but this is when I can get things done. In the spring is prime time for everyone - including those in the bigger markets.

I really don't think many of you fully appreciate the amount of time and investment there is in developing a product properly. TCS is not held together with scotch tape and bubble gum, and it is certainly not made from junkyard parts. It's a sophisticated piece, and as a result, it takes lots of time and money to bring it to each new model.

My frustration stems from the idea that I was willing to invest all of that, fully well knowing that there was very little chance for a return on that investment. Honestly, break even was where I was hoping to be with it, and if I was lucky, I might make a few bucks. That's how slim the margins were. My thoughts on this were that we'd offer a group buy on R/T boxes to get the word out, and then maybe afterwards we would develop for the SOHC cars, once some funds were recouped from R/T. Several of you stepped up, and wanted the SOHC version as soon as possible. I checked my funds and schedule and decided I could squeeze it in. However, that would mean a tough commitment from me, for time and energy.

Then this thread took the turns it has, and really now, would you stick it out, especially when you know the financial risk at hand? So skip the sacrimonious BS about doors hitting me. I will be here to deliver for the R/T guys, because development is complete. I just need the orders to get production kick started. SOHC is not quite a clean-sheet level of development, but it's not done, and I really don't need to feel compelled to do it, either.

[nemiro]

And for track record, I will give a recap of a few things:

ND Performance was the first to:
- Offer calibrations in the market (many of which are still used, and almost all of which have been the basis for ALL of the vendors currently here)
- Perform an aftermarket swap of the TIII into a non-AA/AG body
- Figure out distributor ignition for the TIII (aren't you selling parts for that based off my original design, Simon?)
- Use and successfully control an external wastegate with PCM control
- Successfully make the VNT work with anything other than the original SOHC application
- Make Multical and TrimCal units, allowing instantaneous switching of calibrations and tweaking (in all kinds of flavors, too)
- Swap a 2.2 (in both SOHC and DOHC types) into a Neon



Let's not forget the work done on the CSX-ND, Neon-ND, GLHS #053, and more recently GLHS #432. Many of you have seen the quality of those cars, and have seen the progression of them getting better and better with each project. And you think I can't make TCS work, and do what is advertised? Geeez ;)

[Force Fed Mopar]

So where are these timeslips? It's night time here already :p

[turbovanman²]

Last I am going to address it to you Simon. You are having trouble separating me from Cindy. The group buy thread is where your complaint with her belongs, not here. Here is where technical discussion belongs. I think I have explained that a group buy in the spring probably won't work, because I have a gap in development, now. Yes, the timing is pretty bad for some, but this is when I can get things done. In the spring is prime time for everyone - including those in the bigger markets.

I really don't think many of you fully appreciate the amount of time and investment there is in developing a product properly. TCS is not held together with scotch tape and bubble gum, and it is certainly not made from junkyard parts. It's a sophisticated piece, and as a result, it takes lots of time and money to bring it to each new model.

My frustration stems from the idea that I was willing to invest all of that, fully well knowing that there was very little chance for a return on that investment. Honestly, break even was where I was hoping to be with it, and if I was lucky, I might make a few bucks. That's how slim the margins were. My thoughts on this were that we'd offer a group buy on R/T boxes to get the word out, and then maybe afterwards we would develop for the SOHC cars, once some funds were recouped from R/T. Several of you stepped up, and wanted the SOHC version as soon as possible. I checked my funds and schedule and decided I could squeeze it in. However, that would mean a tough commitment from me, for time and energy.

Then this thread took the turns it has, and really now, would you stick it out, especially when you know the financial risk at hand? So skip the sacrimonious BS about doors hitting me. I will be here to deliver for the R/T guys, because development is complete. I just need the orders to get production kick started. SOHC is not quite a clean-sheet level of development, but it's not done, and I really don't need to feel compelled to do it, either.

I am addressing you and Cindy, as you deem me as not wanting one, which I've clearly stated I do, and Cindy for not trying to get the ball rolling later on, IE after Xmas. No one ever said these were simple to make and why is it so hard to understand that some people need proof? Again, these aren't SRT's, NSRT's, Mustangs, etc and saying just look at that car isn't good enough for some people. Only 2 have said they wanted the SOHC now and what, 4 R/T guys? Your getting upset at the SOHC guys when the R/T guys haven't stepped up to plate, so again, revisit this in a few months when again, Xmas is over and everyone has had time to save. Why is THIS so hard to understand?

You say you want to get out now on the SOHC? Why? can't take some heat? Everything said here is legit, so why are you getting so upset? Make one for someone, give them a deal and let them test it, problem solved. You have trannybuster busting a nut for one, so sell him one at the special price and he's our guinea pig.


And for track record, I will give a recap of a few things:

ND Performance was the first to:
- Offer calibrations in the market (many of which are still used, and almost all of which have been the basis for ALL of the vendors currently here)
- Perform an aftermarket swap of the TIII into a non-AA/AG body
- Figure out distributor ignition for the TIII (aren't you selling parts for that based off my original design, Simon?)
- Use and successfully control an external wastegate with PCM control
- Successfully make the VNT work with anything other than the original SOHC application
- Make Multical and TrimCal units, allowing instantaneous switching of calibrations and tweaking (in all kinds of flavors, too)
- Swap a 2.2 (in both SOHC and DOHC types) into a Neon



Let's not forget the work done on the CSX-ND, Neon-ND, GLHS #053, and more recently GLHS #432. Many of you have seen the quality of those cars, and have seen the progression of them getting better and better with each project. And you think I can't make TCS work, and do what is advertised? Geeez ;)


NO ONE is saying anything against your past work, sheesh Neil, and I got the dizzy idea from someone else, but if that was your idea at first before the other 2, then thanks, :nod:

[trannybuster]

You have trannybuster busting a nut for one

Pfft, Im still in the rubbing it out phase....the rise to glory and come forth happens when it arrives at my door!

[Force Fed Mopar]

If FWD-P has a unit installed on one of their personal/shop cars, why do they not take that out and get a TCS off/TCS on video? Wouldn't take 10 mins, hell it could be done on the drive home/to work :)

[turbovanman²]

Nevermind.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Easy Simon, take a deep breath :)

[turbovanman²]

Nevermind.

[glhs727]

If FWD-P has a unit installed on one of their personal/shop cars, why do they not take that out and get a TCS off/TCS on video? Wouldn't take 10 mins, hell it could be done on the drive home/to work :)

I think Neil already showed a vid in one of the first post with it on a caliber on and off. My personal car with TCS is a neon so according to the naysayers, that doesn't count. And my personal opinion and how much I like it on my own car doesn't count too. But that's OK, I plan to put one in my R/T, and then I will be happy to take a video. I'm sure that won't be good enough either. I'll have to go to the track and do some 60 ft, but that won't be good enough, I'll have to install it on a sohc car and take a video, but then that won't be good enough.... There is no proof we can give that either would be good enough that certian people won't find fault with it and stir up crap . I don't blame Neil at all. Here was achance to get a good useful product to the market. Already proved by the sales in the caliber and neon markets, but shot down by basically THREE people, and then AFTER it is decided not to do it, the bandwagon jumpers start in....
Again, if you were skeptical, you should have said "before i send money I want video of a sohc at the track...." and left it at that. The other willing participants would have gotten together enough for a group buy, tried it out, posted their results and that would be that. BUT NO..... constant badgering of Neil, and frankly a little disrepectful as well. So we appreciate all the ones that signed up for the R/T GB, I'll be contacting you after Christmas. The SOHC guys..., well send Simon, Tryingbe and JT a thankyou card.....
You may now close this thread, along with the GB thread. it's done.....and there is no more than needs to be said....

[cordes]

I think Neil already showed a vid in one of the first post with it on a caliber on and off. My personal car with TCS is a neon so according to the naysayers, that doesn't count. And my personal opinion and how much I like it on my own car doesn't count too. But that's OK, I plan to put one in my R/T, and then I will be happy to take a video. I'm sure that won't be good enough either. I'll have to go to the track and do some 60 ft, but that won't be good enough, I'll have to install it on a sohc car and take a video, but then that won't be good enough.... There is no proof we can give that either would be good enough that certian people won't find fault with it and stir up crap . I don't blame Neil at all. Here was achance to get a good useful product to the market. Already proved by the sales in the caliber and neon markets, but shot down by basically THREE people, and then AFTER it is decided not to do it, the bandwagon jumpers start in....
Again, if you were skeptical, you should have said "before i send money I want video of a sohc at the track...." and left it at that. The other willing participants would have gotten together enough for a group buy, tried it out, posted their results and that would be that. BUT NO..... constant badgering of Neil, and frankly a little disrepectful as well. So we appreciate all the ones that signed up for the R/T GB, I'll be contacting you after Christmas. The SOHC guys..., well send Simon, Tryingbe and JT a thankyou card.....
You may now close this thread, along with the GB thread. it's done.....and there is no more than needs to be said....

I think that was in very poor taste Cindy. They made some very valid points and JT especially was quite respectful. You don't have to like it, but you shouldn't stoop like that. If I were you I would love people doing that to me so that not only my company's testing and results, but my actual customers results would put folks in their place in a way that would be remembered for years.

Lets face it, if this thing works like you claim it'll be gold for your company and JT, Simon, Tryingbe, et al will be lining up for one.

[glhs727]

What is in bad tatse? The fact is those three gave Neil enough grief that now the others that actually wanted the product, were willing to put money down and test it can't have it. A simple, good luck on the product! I'll buy once i see test results done on TD would suffice, not 8 pages of crap.... The mods should have stepped in a long time ago, instead fanned the flames. Close the thread already. The decisions have already been made... wheres the beating the dead horse smiley??

[turbovanman²]

I think Neil already showed a vid in one of the first post with it on a caliber on and off. My personal car with TCS is a neon so according to the naysayers, that doesn't count. And my personal opinion and how much I like it on my own car doesn't count too. But that's OK, I plan to put one in my R/T, and then I will be happy to take a video. I'm sure that won't be good enough either. I'll have to go to the track and do some 60 ft, but that won't be good enough, I'll have to install it on a sohc car and take a video, but then that won't be good enough.... There is no proof we can give that either would be good enough that certian people won't find fault with it and stir up crap . I don't blame Neil at all. Here was achance to get a good useful product to the market. Already proved by the sales in the caliber and neon markets, but shot down by basically THREE people, and then AFTER it is decided not to do it, the bandwagon jumpers start in....
Again, if you were skeptical, you should have said "before i send money I want video of a sohc at the track...." and left it at that. The other willing participants would have gotten together enough for a group buy, tried it out, posted their results and that would be that. BUT NO..... constant badgering of Neil, and frankly a little disrepectful as well. So we appreciate all the ones that signed up for the R/T GB, I'll be contacting you after Christmas. The SOHC guys..., well send Simon, Tryingbe and JT a thankyou card.....
You may now close this thread, along with the GB thread. it's done.....and there is no more than needs to be said....

Awesome attitude, kudo's to being a grown up business woman. We've also covered in great detail how an SRT/NSRT isn't an old school turbo Mopar.

As for sending me and others a thank you card, how childish, again, maybe I'll post up in block letters that covers the whole page, but this will have to do-

I WANT ONE BUT SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD IT AT THIS TIME, ESPECIALLY DUE TO XMAS BUT IN SPRING, I AM ALL FOR IT. ALSO, MAYBE MAKE ONE FOR SOMEONE SAY TRANNYBUSTER AND THEN HE CAN TEST IT AND THEN POST UP RESULTS SO IN THE SPRING WHEN EVERYONE HAS RECOVERED AND RACING SEASON STARTS, WE CAN BUY ONE

Is that clear enough for you?

[glhs727]

wow seriously, you are gonna tell me something I said was in bad taste when you keep letting Simon post his crap..... really?????


Simon, in case you don't know the group buy was now till after Christmas. Money wasn't due to late January when people get their tax returns.... How is that any different than waiting for Spring? BTW we also take credit cards that can be used now and paid for in Spring..... that argument has no bearing on this thread, your just mad becuase we wanted to do it now while Neil had time, instead of waiting until you deemed it a good time...

[cordes]

What is in bad tatse? The fact is those three gave Neil enough grief that now the others that actually wanted the product, were willing to put money down and test it can't have it. A simple, good luck on the product! I'll buy once i see test results done on TD would suffice, not 8 pages of crap.... The mods should have stepped in a long time ago, instead fanned the flames. Close the thread already. The decisions have already been made... wheres the beating the dead horse smiley??

Grief? There is some claimed data for the product. Guys wanted to see it. I don't see how that's giving anyone grief. To be frank I probably would have kept quiet if you would have left JT out of that statement, but he hasn't been contrary in the least. He even posted a video and times for you to help out. You should probably be thanking him.

As I stated in my previous post, this is a huge opportunity for you. I would seize it. Your last couple posts leave me wondering how you and Neil have managed to stay in the kitchen. So little heat and you're hoisting the white flag, in manner which the French are impressed by. That's not easy to do on the best of days.

[nemiro]

Again, R/T is happening, because development is done. SOHC requires development, and I am not going to allocate resources to it right now. It was a mistake on my part to offer up putting the resources into it, when it should have waited. The R/T owners can post up time slips (if they like) and we'll take it from there.


JT-
FTR, of all the posts questioning things, yours was the most respectful, and I thank you for that.

[cordes]

Again, R/T is happening, because development is done. SOHC requires development, and I am not going to allocate resources to it right now. It was a mistake on my part to offer up putting the resources into it, when it should have waited. The R/T owners can post up time slips (if they like) and we'll take it from there.


JT-
FTR, of all the posts questioning things, yours was the most respectful, and I thank you for that.

Excellent post.

[glhs727]

Lets face it, if this thing works like you claim it'll be gold for your company and JT, Simon, Tryingbe, et al will be lining up for one.

I could be wrong, but I think even if it showed you could shave a full second off your ET, I doubt JT, Simon or tryingbe would be lining up for one. But I guess we will see........

[cordes]

I could be wrong, but I think even if it showed you could shave a full second off your ET, I doubt JT, Simon or tryingbe would be lining up for one. But I guess we will see........

I'm the cheapest person you've ever met, but if it shaves a second for that price I'd be knocking the guys over for a spot in line. I guarantee that the others in question would be right behind me. Any person using reason will be all over this thing if it works.

[Force Fed Mopar]

He did not post a vid of it off, he posted a vid of a launch with just the TCS, then a 1/4 mile w/ the TCS, then a launch with the 2-step and TCS on (in which he didn't even appear to use the 2-step). Then some other peoples' vids of playing w/ the 2-step. Maybe the timeslips Neil is going to post later on will tell the story better. Not trying to bag on you guys, but I don't understand getting all bent out of shape over a few people asking for a simple demonstration of how well it works. It's not like we are expecting it to magically make our cars a second faster in the 1/4 (unless you really suck at launching). A simple, decent on/off vid is all anyone is asking for. I don't dispute that some of the comments directed at you guys are a little over line, but you guys have returned it in kind as well.

edit: LOL, take a few minutes to post and all hell breaks out :lol:

[bakes]

I find that everyone focuses on the 60' but if you have a real hi power fwd you can realy make the TCS work for ya in 2 and 3rd gear and stop the tires form blowing off even with slicks .

[glhs727]

That would be true, and a 60 ft test won't tell you that! but apearantly it's the 60 ft test is the be all/end all.

[chilort]

He did not post a vid of it off, he posted a vid of a launch with just the TCS, then a 1/4 mile w/ the TCS, then a launch with the 2-step and TCS on (in which he didn't even appear to use the 2-step). Then some other peoples' vids of playing w/ the 2-step. Maybe the timeslips Neil is going to post later on will tell the story better. Not trying to bag on you guys, but I don't understand getting all bent out of shape over a few people asking for a simple demonstration of how well it works. It's not like we are expecting it to magically make our cars a second faster in the 1/4 (unless you really suck at launching). A simple, decent on/off vid is all anyone is asking for. I don't dispute that some of the comments directed at you guys are a little over line, but you guys have returned it in kind as well.


What did I say earlier about some of our vendors being real dicks?

I know I cannot say that because I don't pay the $50 annual vendor fee. :thumb:

What we've got here folks is an old fashioned dick measuring contest. Which is they way they want it. So they get it.

Neil, run away.

[glhs727]

He did not post a vid of it off, he posted a vid of a launch with just the TCS, then a 1/4 mile w/ the TCS, then a launch with the 2-step and TCS on (in which he didn't even appear to use the 2-step). Then some other peoples' vids of playing w/ the 2-step. Maybe the timeslips Neil is going to post later on will tell the story better. Not trying to bag on you guys, but I don't understand getting all bent out of shape over a few people asking for a simple demonstration of how well it works. It's not like we are expecting it to magically make our cars a second faster in the 1/4 (unless you really suck at launching). A simple, decent on/off vid is all anyone is asking for. I don't dispute that some of the comments directed at you guys are a little over line, but you guys have returned it in kind as well.

edit: LOL, take a few minutes to post and all hell breaks out :lol:

according to Simon:
We've also covered in great detail how an SRT/NSRT isn't an old school turbo Mopar. LOL which is pretty funny, becuase when it comes to fast TD's and TCS the old TD's and SRT-4's are VERY similar.....
So if that will shut up everyone, I will do it. It may take till NEXT weekend to post the vid though.

[Force Fed Mopar]

That would be true, and a 60 ft test won't tell you that! but apearantly it's the 60 ft test is the be all/end all.

It's like this - the TCS is what's in question here. There are all kinds of factors that can come into play when doing track tests, that can make track vids and numbers not so great as a proof of well it works. The TCS could work great and you still run slower because the track sucks, or you didn't get the same lane or something. So, take a car out on the street (somewhere deserted preferably :D) on street tires, turn the TCS off, and launch the car from 4k. We all know what happens in a fwd TM (old or new) in a 4k launch - spin city! Now, turn the TCS on and launch from 4k again. If it works, no more spin city, correct? Get that on film, and dispute resolved.

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------


according to Simon:
We've also covered in great detail how an SRT/NSRT isn't an old school turbo Mopar. LOL which is pretty funny, becuase when it comes to fast TD's and TCS the old TD's and SRT-4's are VERY similar.....
So if that will shut up everyone, I will do it. It may take till NEXT weekend to post the vid though.

I've been under and in them all (except CSRT's), and they are very similar mechanically.

Edit: stupid double posts...

[ShelGame]

And for track record, I will give a recap of a few things:

ND Performance was the first to:
- Offer calibrations in the market (many of which are still used, and almost all of which have been the basis for ALL of the vendors currently here)
- snip


I think it's always good to have new products for these cars. I personally have no interest in the TCS system because it would not be legal for my NHRA stocker.

But, I feel I need to set the record straight on the point above - as far as I know, our community now has only 2 'official' cal vendors. I think it's common knowledge that FWD bought your cal business from you years ago.

However, no part of any cal that I have ever made has come from any part of any cal you (or FWD for that matter) have ever made. I think that point is obvious if you have ever looked at my source code and how the cals are built; how they are setup for 3-bar; and how they are setup for bigger injectors.

Of course, my work on these cals started in the old Yahoo ECM group and much of my early dis-assembly leaned on the work of guys from that group that are all now long gone form the community (Graem Schmidt, Derek Beland, Gary D, even Paul V.); for all I know you may very well have provided some of the Chrysler names that appeared in those early dis-assemblies and therefore now in my source code. But, that's not the same as using your calibration data, and it's a far cry from your cals being 'the basis of' my cals.

I have always taken pride in the fact that I do not 'steal' cals from anyone and that all my work is my own.

Sorry for the intrusion in your TCS thread...

[nemiro]

There are some street vids showing just that on YouTube. When I get home, I will link some of those.

[turbovanman²]

wow seriously, you are gonna tell me something I said was in bad taste when you keep letting Simon post his crap..... really?????


Simon, in case you don't know the group buy was now till after Christmas. Money wasn't due to late January when people get their tax returns.... How is that any different than waiting for Spring? BTW we also take credit cards that can be used now and paid for in Spring..... that argument has no bearing on this thread, your just mad becuase we wanted to do it now while Neil had time, instead of waiting until you deemed it a good time...

$250 needed now, I don't have that and guarantee others don't. I am not mad, I am only baffled by your silliness in this matter. I suggested something for you to help in sales yet I am the bad guy. And you lied too, you said you need 5 sales, you have 3 yet you said WE stopped them from getting a TCS unit?


I could be wrong, but I think even if it showed you could shave a full second off your ET, I doubt JT, Simon or tryingbe would be lining up for one. But I guess we will see........

Are you f*cking kidding me? Do I have to redo my post in Pink? Maybe you need to get some new glass's.




Again, R/T is happening, because development is done. SOHC requires development, and I am not going to allocate resources to it right now. It was a mistake on my part to offer up putting the resources into it, when it should have waited. The R/T owners can post up time slips (if they like) and we'll take it from there.


JT-
FTR, of all the posts questioning things, yours was the most respectful, and I thank you for that.

Thank you, and FWIW, its nothing personal etc, I do have faith in your product.

[nemiro]

I think it's always good to have new products for these cars. I personally have no interest in the TCS system because it would not be legal for my NHRA stocker.

But, I feel I need to set the record straight on the point above - as far as I know, our community now has only 2 'official' cal vendors. I think it's common knowledge that FWD bought your cal business from you years ago.

However, no part of any cal that I have ever made has come from any part of any cal you (or FWD for that matter) have ever made. I think that point is obvious if you have ever looked at my source code and how the cals are built; how they are setup for 3-bar; and how they are setup for bigger injectors.

Of course, my work on these cals started in the old Yahoo ECM group and much of my early dis-assembly leaned on the work of guys from that group that are all now long gone form the community (Graem Schmidt, Derek Beland, Gary D, even Paul V.); for all I know you may very well have provided some of the Chrysler names that appeared in those early dis-assemblies and therefore now in my source code. But, that's not the same as using your calibration data, and it's a far cry from your cals being 'the basis of' my cals.

I have always taken pride in the fact that I do not 'steal' cals from anyone and that all my work is my own.

Sorry for the intrusion in your TCS thread...

No sweat, and my posting that was not a swipe at you, in any way. And yes, FWD acquired the 2.2/2.5 cal side of the house from me more than 10 years ago.

[glhs727]

Rob, no need to defend your work. I'd like to think yours and ours work are mutually respected! He didn't say anyone stole his cals, and said almost all not everyone. But I'm sure some the old ecm group had data/info from Neil's work, so in that respect some of your work might be based on some of his, but again, no one said you copied his stuff. He was just pointing out that he has been a pioneer on a LOT TD related things that now years later are commonplace.... and now pioneering the idea of traction control...

[cordes]

$250 needed now, I don't have that and guarantee others don't. I am not mad, I am only baffled by your silliness in this matter. I suggested something for you to help in sales yet I am the bad guy. And you lied too, you said you need 5 sales, you have 3 yet you said WE stopped them from getting a TCS unit?



Are you f*cking kidding me? Do I have to redo my post in Pink? Maybe you need to get some new glass's.





Thank you, and FWIW, its nothing personal etc, I do have faith in your product.

Simon and Cindy, would it be possible for you two to quit the arguing about the group buy business?

Simon, I really don't know why you're barking up that tree still. We all know what you're saying; you've made your point. It's Cindy's show and her choice to do with her company as she pleases. It really has nothing to do with the actual matter at hand, that being the TCS which I think you've made some good points about.

[turbovanman²]

according to Simon:
We've also covered in great detail how an SRT/NSRT isn't an old school turbo Mopar. LOL which is pretty funny, becuase when it comes to fast TD's and TCS the old TD's and SRT-4's are VERY similar.....
So if that will shut up everyone, I will do it. It may take till NEXT weekend to post the vid though.

So your telling me a full ABS equipped, modern car compares to an old school, early 80's designed and dizzy run car? Thanks, my bad.

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------


Simon and Cindy, would it be possible for you two to quit the arguing about the group buy business?

Simon, I really don't know why you're barking up that tree still. We all know what you're saying; you've made your point. It's Cindy's show and her choice to do with her company as she pleases. It really has nothing to do with the actual matter at hand, that being the TCS which I think you've made some good points about.

No, actually, she's claimed numerous times I have no intention of buying it, so I have to keep reminding her of what I've said as she seems to keep forgetting and bringing it up.

[Vigo]

Who has mod powers in this section?

[nemiro]

Thank you, and FWIW, its nothing personal etc, I do have faith in your product.

Good to know. The factors in my decision are as below, in no particular order:
- Development required for SOHC (time and $$$$)
- Limited market (in relative terms)
- Market still needs development
- Development must be completed, product tested in market before market will accept

Add all that up, and it adds up to pulling the plug. Nothing personal, and I think we all got a bit more bent out of shape than we should have. And yes, I still have faith in my products, too.

[turbovanman²]

Good to know. The factors in my decision are as below, in no particular order:
- Development required for SOHC (time and $$$$)
- Limited market (in relative terms)
- Market still needs development
- Development must be completed, product tested in market before market will accept

Add all that up, and it adds up to pulling the plug. Nothing personal, and I think we all got a bit more bent out of shape than we should have. And yes, I still have faith in my products, too.

Now if you need a guinea pig, I'd fully volunteer, LOL, :eyebrows:

[ShelGame]

Rob, no need to defend your work. I'd like to think yours and ours work are mutually respected! He didn't say anyone stole his cals, and said almost all not everyone. But I'm sure some the old ecm group had data/info from Neil's work, so in that respect some of your work might be based on some of his, but again, no one said you copied his stuff. He was just pointing out that he has been a pioneer on a LOT TD related things that now years later are commonplace.... and now pioneering the idea of traction control...

I usually don't feel I need to defend my work, but in this case - just a little. ALL vendors means BoostButton and FWD unless there's someone else that I don't know of. I don't want anyone to have the impression that my cals are not my own work. If anything in my cals is based on ND/FWD cals, or the Yahoo ECM group, it's only the Chrysler names. And, that's really Chryslers work, not ND's or FWD's; and I credit it as such in my source code.

Of course, Neil was an innovator for these cals. He showed everyone it could be done; which likely inspired the formation of the ECM group in the first place.

---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------


No sweat, and my posting that was not a swipe at you, in any way. And yes, FWD acquired the 2.2/2.5 cal side of the house from me more than 10 years ago.

I didn't think it was directed at me personally, Neil. But, being that there are currently only 2 cal vendors, I felt I should make my point. I'm not in a huff about it...

I said my piece and I'll stay out of your thread now...

[Force Fed Mopar]

There are some street vids showing just that on YouTube. When I get home, I will link some of those.

Sounds good :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

The SOHC guys..., well send Simon, Tryingbe and JT a thankyou card.....

My Z has a 2.4l DOHC, why include me in the SOHC trauma? I am waiting to see any street tire tipeslip (from SRT4 even) to look at next to the slick tire timeslip on my desk. Gee Thanks...


Grief? There is some claimed data for the product. Guys wanted to see it. I don't see how that's giving anyone grief. To be frank I probably would have kept quiet if you would have left JT out of that statement, but he hasn't been contrary in the least. He even posted a video and times for you to help out. You should probably be thanking him.

Thanks, I was trying to help by posting the timeslip data and corresponding video. If that run were on street tires I think there would be a line of folks interested


JT-
FTR, of all the posts questioning things, yours was the most respectful, and I thank you for that.

Thanks, no disrespect was meant. I truely think this is a great product and appreciate you bringing it to our niche community.


Lets face it, if this thing works like you claim it'll be gold for your company and JT, Simon, Tryingbe, et al will be lining up for one.

And a lot more folks too, seriously, 1.8X 60's on street tires? giddy up!


I could be wrong, but I think even if it showed you could shave a full second off your ET, I doubt JT, Simon or tryingbe would be lining up for one. But I guess we will see........

Yeah, you could be wrong... and there would be a line of folks waiting to get one


That would be true, and a 60 ft test won't tell you that! but apearantly it's the 60 ft test is the be all/end all.

It's not? :confused2: Then why were 60' claims made? The topic of 60' is what was in this discussion from the start as that is what was claimed so this is what folks, such as myself, have asked to be backed up, however, you're right, the whole timeslip matters and I would LOVE to see a full street tire timeslip for the TCS :thumb:


You may now close this thread, along with the GB thread. it's done.....and there is no more than needs to be said....

I heard that street tire timeslips will be posted tonight, should we at least leave it open until that is done?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Honestly, I'd think the SOHC market would be the one to go for, considering there are 10x more of them than there is R/T's.

[glhs727]

as long as people can be civil, I don't have an issue with keeping it open so people can post vids.

[Force Fed Mopar]

as long as people can be civil, I don't have an issue with keeping it open so people can post vids.

Excellent! Now, when does Neil get home? lol I know he's 3 hrs behind me.

[glhs727]

It's late.. I hope he posts tonight, but if he waits until tomorrow that's ok with me. I'm not losing sleep over it!!

[Force Fed Mopar]

Same here...

[tryingbe]

I think Neil already showed a vid in one of the first post with it on a caliber on and off. My personal car with TCS is a neon so according to the naysayers, that doesn't count. And my personal opinion and how much I like it on my own car doesn't count too. But that's OK, I plan to put one in my R/T, and then I will be happy to take a video. I'm sure that won't be good enough either. I'll have to go to the track and do some 60 ft, but that won't be good enough, I'll have to install it on a sohc car and take a video, but then that won't be good enough.... There is no proof we can give that either would be good enough that certian people won't find fault with it and stir up crap . I don't blame Neil at all. Here was achance to get a good useful product to the market. Already proved by the sales in the caliber and neon markets, but shot down by basically THREE people, and then AFTER it is decided not to do it, the bandwagon jumpers start in....


I don't know who you're talking about. I thought I stated my intention pretty clear. Track with time slip is plenty enough proof for me, even in a Neon. Prefer means "NOT REQUIRED." I have money. I want to see the result of your proven product so I can use my money.



Maybe I should be more specific.

I want to see a video of a FWD car (8V PREFER) equipped with TCS doing a 1/4 mile and then have it show the 60 ft time and what tires it used.

So for, all I have are words, videos of flashing lights on top of the dash, and building boost in neutral. I searched, found nothing on youtube that I am looking for.

Google resulted to the below. Not really impressed.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f335/tcs-results-questions-1-8-mile-381307/


As far as I am concern, the vendor is in the phrase of proving this product works on a 8V car. Having one prototype unit working 8V is prefect, for posting video of how well the unit works, with a 1/4 slip and 60 ft time to back it up the claim.

Do we need to start a $20 donation + gas fund to get this car to the 1/4 mile track?



All I want is some 60 ft time slip and video to back up the product. Why is it so hard? If they are posted where else, wouldn't it be wise for you to use them toward your advantage? Instead, I gets a bunch of text that says, "this product works, on hundreds of cars, you should do your own research."

Well, I did do my search, and I posted my search for everyone to see.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?63141-Traction-control-now-available-for-our-cars!!!&p=875186&viewfull=1#post875186

Right now, 60 ft time slip with the video to show that 60 ft time and tires used are the only things that will convince me to buy this product. I think it's pretty justify for a potential customer to ask for the proof of what this product is suppose to deliver. Wouldn't you?

To back up that I have money, here's a picture of proof.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/440.jpg

[black86glhs]

That would be true, and a 60 ft test won't tell you that! but apearantly it's the 60 ft test is the be all/end all.I'm jumping in here. Cindy, you and Neil both talked the 60' thing up with high praise. Now with this post you try to make it sound like it is nothing?
Sorry, but this is why people have asked for proof. The proof that was shown didn't show me anything but people playing with the system. It did not back up anything that was said by you(the Vendor) and Neil(the creator). If I missed the run that had a Neon or Caliber run 2.3 60' and then turn on the traction control and run 1.9 60' times on street tires, please correct me and I'll post a retraction.
Neil, I want to say that I do not know you and have no ill will towards you and your products. If it works great! Asking for proof before someone buys is smart money managing, not bashing or getting an attitude. If you take this that way, then I am sorry for your inability to see that. I also understand you wanting to sell your wares and making money, since that is what being in business is all about. Well not "all", but that is one big reason I opened mine.
Cindy, I too have no ill will towards you and FWD. I would not have bought the LM from you a couple months ago if I had, I'm sure you can see that.
Sadly this has gone to people getting "butt hurt" for a lack of a better term. Neil, I wish you luck and do hope you get a moment and piece something together for the 2-3 guys that want it and can get some R&D for it. I love these cars(even if some think I don't by some remarks make in jest), but I'll keep driving it or go build a GM if it gets too nasty.

BTW.....as for Simon. It is not your place to keep suggesting that they do it the way you desire. No you weren't nasty, but this is the FWD perf forum not "the way Simon want it to be done" forum. Cindy runs her business the way she sees fit. You should have taken it to PM with her.

[turbovanman²]

BTW.....as for Simon. It is not your place to keep suggesting that they do it the way you desire. No you weren't nasty, but this is the FWD perf forum not "the way Simon want it to be done" forum. Cindy runs her business the way she sees fit. You should have taken it to PM with her.

Never told her how to run her business, I suggested how to get sales and how someone like me and others who are broke could buy one in the spring.

I and others don't like being told just buy it now because it works or buy it now or else I won't do it again is bs.

So lets all do a group hug and wait for the vids/time slips.

On that note, how about now? ;)

[John B]

I could be wrong, but I think even if it showed you could shave a full second off your ET, .....

I was thinking more about ice conditions when I relocate to Colorado (probably next year some time). Would be handy! That was the rationalization I used to put the Peloquin in too. I have to rationalize to trick myself into spending money; it can't just be because I want it. Then too, there's the Secretary of the Treasury I have to convince. She always wants to know why I spend so much time and money on such an old car. "It'll be much safer on the ice Honey..."

[nemiro]

OK, first a link to a post in a thread about a guy, very early on using TCS with slicks and an E1 turbo (slight upgrade from a stock turbo):
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f113/e1-e2-e3-timeslip-database-368939/index3.html#post5374193

Not the greatest, and most of you might be able to pull that off with your big turbo car, but the ultra-quick spooling SRT-4 is a bit more of a handful off the line.

So here's some vids:
http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=15OSew5Oqus

This one gives a good ----pit comparison of TCS ON and OFF:
http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=RhHOrGvHN4Y&feature=related

This shows TCS slightly light in control, but not bad (a little spin is actually good):
http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=xNgzW_Ew1iE&feature=fvst


Then there is this video showing you run after run of a TCS equipped SRT-4 (the red one), and several other turbo Mopars (even a P body & K car). Notice the wheel spin and the sorrier time of the black SRT-4. The black one is running a big turbo and a lot of other stuff, but can't get the power to the ground. Notice the stock wheels on the red car, which will indicate a street tire:
http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=RhHOrGvHN4Y&feature=related


Lastly, I attached a pic of a time slip of one of the earliest SRT TCS test cars. This car had relatively mild mods, and a stock turbo. With slicks, yes. Are you cutting those times with slicks (with less than 300hp on tap)? Consistently? If so, you are so awesome, that's all I have to say.

[nemiro]

And yes, I just got home, BTW :)

[Ondonti]

Traction control works. Its been around for a long time in racing.

Pretty sure I put more research effort in then anyone else posting who does not create or sell the product before I made my comment. I made it on the 4th page. I spent 2 hours reading anything I could find to back up the claims made and also to come to terms with some arguments that had already erupted into insulting remarks back and forth. I said nothing off the hip. What I said was apparently impossible to reply to because its just repetition of fact.

The mathmatics of "sixtyfoot difference times two minus zero point five seconds shifting faster" is obviously completely wrong. You can't take a poor stock 60' and compare it to the best 60' ever obtained, then slap on a guess of shift time improvement which equals well over 1 second, use that as your main selling point, then back it up with modified cars running the times you just claimed a stocker could run based on fool proof math. That is why people want proof. A well powered car running quick times on street tires FWD is odd but not unheard of.
I had a hard time telling what was really being claimed. 0-60 times or 60' runs.

Then I simply quoted people 3 years ago claiming they would obtain data. It never happened apparently. I did not know that, not something I need to feel guilty about.

I read in this thread that a simple google search would prove the product is a success. Did the person saying that actually try a search before saying that? Maybe google is unfair but just about every hit is something to do with a problem. The problem may be the owner of the vehicle but problems are still want the search engine brings up.

Someone searching very hard would find the occasional posts talking about the tuning parameters of the box, something that not a single post in this thread actually addresses, even the people selling and building the product. Things like this would be very good selling points for the bright bunch of gents here who are not quick to part with a dollar over a mystical unexplained box. The advertising in this thread sounds like "set it and forget it" when in reality the creator knows that its "mess around with it all the time and hope it works correctly each time you change the cars setup" when it comes to most owners.

I can go and quote all these things from SRT forums but that seems silly. Nobody here respects the general populace over there except the few bright stars so its not like anyone is going to be afraid of some slightly negative facts that would come up when we talk about actual customer experiences.

It seems well proven that people who are good a launching gain little with this box and people who are good at 3 second 60 foots gain a lot. The main bit of advice I saw Neil giving was "just rev it up and dump the clutch" because everyone who was used to using their own driver mod was having problems bogging or shuddering.

People here like facts, they like data, they like to know details. Screen shots and breakdowns of tuning sessions or other things like that would get people excited. Wallets would open.

Me, I can afford the product for a computer you never figured out, I can afford enough to finance every group buy you could come up with, I still choose to be careful with money as if I still had none like I did the last few years. I feel like there is some offense meant towards those who are tight for cash. Not sure if you caught the whole recession thing, or the fact that many motor vehicle modification shops have failed the last few years.

To top it all off, there is the psychological manipulation going on when you are called into question over a few statements. Probably would have been better off letting Cindy do the selling because she seems to do better at keeping a cool head. Plus, as a vendor, she does not have to feel so threatened by a lack of evidence as the owner might. If Cindy doesn't have information, she doesn't look silly. The owner of a product saying the same thing he did 4 years ago with no hard backup data does look silly. It would be so easy to make your product look really good and very desirable. It would just take a little honesty. Admit the unit will actually hurt your 60' compared to a good driver until you get things tuned in right. Then go about explaining how you would dial in the setting to get an amazing launch. Imagine that you are giving people here a test drive from start of the process to the finish.
Anything else is insulting the intelligence of your customer. Insulting the intelligence of customer is what I was reading it the thread and is the reason I spent so much time looking into the device before making a single post. Too good to be true bells went off in my head when I read the "set it and forget it" commentary, and then the defensiveness with no backup sealed the deal. The best product in the world can be sold the wrong way and be a failure.

Traction control works. The advertising here is what was under scrutiny and its unfair to retaliate against a community because a few people felt they were being bamboozled when it was just a terrible attempt at selling a product. Traction control works. Timing retard is the proper way to control traction. It works amazingly on turbo cars because you will stay spooled but still have power drop. Boost per gear is flawed. This product uses the proper method apart from combining spark retard with variable boost. Traction control works.

I myself cut a 1.71 60' even though i had only 100mph worth of power on tap and a terrible track surface at night. Raw numbers mean nothing just like that 60' means nothing, its back to back that means something. If I mention that the clutch was slipping but I was launching off the rev limiter, raw numbers start meaning little.
Back to back for the TCS would be a couple stock runs with the best driving attempts possible (preferably someone not biased about the product) then the same car using the product for a good number of passes as someone is experienced tunes in the device. Then the numbers should speak for themselves.

Feel free too offer a SOHC product, just don't act like you are doing the poverty status people a favor. I can't use the product since you can't handle all the computers out there. I have learned to live with that. I do find it funny that 3 years later Cindy has not followed up on her promise on the SRT boards. I get tired of "gauging interest" threads that usually result in people getting excited and then the instigator running off after throwing a few quick insults to justify not following through with something they made seem so possible.

If there is a functional unit in a SOHC car why is there even an issue about it not being worth it to "finish" the sohc setup. Shenanigans?

Don't treat people like this guy below and then insult peoples status in life when they have legitimate questions and concerns.
http://www.livingwaterwebsites.com/Websites/vanwykdesign/Images/setit.jpg

[moparman76_69]

Never told her how to run her business, I suggested how to get sales and how someone like me and others who are broke could buy one in the spring.

I and others don't like being told just buy it now because it works or buy it now or else I won't do it again is bs.

So lets all do a group hug and wait for the vids/time slips.

On that note, how about now? ;)

To be honest, you sound like you're butt hurt over the fact she won't wait for you on a group buy. I asked how long she would let it run, if I would have the money by then I would have ponied it up, if not I would have made a decision on paying full price later or buying a different product.

As for the product itself. Having the people "behind it" start to argue and belittle people just as much as the people asking for proof really makes those of us "outside" of the argument not want to deal with the product or the vendor. I'd say at this point Neil is better off selling these to a different group as he has pissed most of us off to the point we wouldn't give him our hard earned cash anyway. This market isn't the same as it was 5-10 years ago. There are people willing to spend money to advance the platform. Assuming we are all "cheap asses" does nothing but insult me.

Personally I agree with closing both threads and letting this idea just die.

[nemiro]

Brent:
Understand most of your points, and will not argue much of it. The idea that people were asking for data was of no offense to me. I understand that perfectly. What was offensive was the manner it was asked for. Some of the very people who were most vocal (and not just in these two threads, I might add) are indeed never going to buy TCS (let's not kid ourselves). If you admit it to yourself, you'll know it's true. Instead of looking at the potential of the entire system, a few decided to play attack dog on a single point. I admit I failed to bring the tech on it, and have also said it should be withdrawn. I have stated as to why I cannot back it at this time. We will be going to the track again, and making a series of runs on more than one car, to bring that tech back.

As for trying to paint me as a bad guy because it is running in an SOHC car, don't even go there. Shenanigans? That car is a SOHC - with a SRT-4 ABS system. It was also a one-off setup that would never have been made available due to the nature of its installation. Development for SOHC is *not* done. I only stated (if you'll read what I have posted) that I know it will work with the ABS system (a la R/T) and I know it will work with the ignition system (with mods, a la GLHS #432). The two have not been brought together. The programming is also incomplete. Wiring harnesses have not been made, instructions, etc. At this point, I am not going to pour the resources into doing it. You do realize this type of development is not free, right? If you'll also remember, this thread opened as being for R/T only, and merely pointed out SOHC could be possible. Several pressured me into proceeding with SOHC development, and I should have declined right then. Another mistake on my part.

Sorry you feel insulted by my comments, but anyone entering this community knows this is the low-buck performance vehicle, and the crowd to go with it. It is both part of the appeal, and part of the reason there are not more innovative products specifically available for the cars. For others who were kids when these cars first came out, there is the nostalgia attached, and I can personally relate. A lot of the community has progressed in their careers, and have some cash to spend. For the community as a whole, we all know that is not true, and as a result, reputation earned. If you're going to get angry with me because I am pointing this out, then so be it. While there are always exceptions to the rules, the simple fact is that you have 2-3 main vendors, and a good handful of small vendors (who are the backbone of *any* car community). Compare that to other markets of cars built in similar numbers. Take Fox body Mustangs, for instance. Compare the numbers, and Ford built far less of those than Chrysler did of FWD turbo cars. Have you ever seen the aftermarket for those cars? The simple fact is that it costs less to get a 2.2/2.5 car to go fast, and the price of admission is negligible. Couple that to the priceless look of surprise when your $500 GLH blows the doors off a new performance car, and you have an intoxicating mix.

The way some of the arguments were presented in this thread - especially the griping about the group buy itself, and not the performance claims, took their toll on my decision. Couple that to some of the nasty PMs and emails I received, and I pulled the plug. From a business perspective, I laid out my reasoning several posts back. The idea that I made this thread mean and nasty it out of line. I may have made a few comments I shouldn't have, but the attack dog mentality of some, instead of letting time and reason prevail is simply amazing. The idea that mods would jump in like they did, and then refuse to moderate - in a paid vendor's section - is also amazing and deplorable.


In closing, R/T TCS units will proceed. How many is in question, but there are those who stepped up in the original group buy for the already developed and tested units. SOHC is off the table indefinitely. Go ahead and abuse me again (as so many of you did, without any moderation) for being crazy, missing the market, etc, etc. R/T development is done. SOHC is not.

[turbovanman²]

To be honest, you sound like you're butt hurt over the fact she won't wait for you on a group buy. I asked how long she would let it run, if I would have the money by then I would have ponied it up, if not I would have made a decision on paying full price later or buying a different product.

As for the product itself. Having the people "behind it" start to argue and belittle people just as much as the people asking for proof really makes those of us "outside" of the argument not want to deal with the product or the vendor. I'd say at this point Neil is better off selling these to a different group as he has pissed most of us off to the point we wouldn't give him our hard earned cash anyway. This market isn't the same as it was 5-10 years ago. There are people willing to spend money to advance the platform. Assuming we are all "cheap asses" does nothing but insult me.

Personally I agree with closing both threads and letting this idea just die.

Hmmmmm, you just had to fuel the fire some more didn't you?

So your blaming me for FWD's or Neil's decision? Gee thanks, didn't know I had that kind of power, guess I should use my new found power to go conquer the world.

Please quote anywhere in this thread where I called anyone cheap azz's, please, find it, I beg of you. If your assuming your a cheap azz, then you are insulting yourself, good one, :nod:

As for being butt hurt, try again, and I won't explain again what I keep saying.


So again, because you don't get it, if they come up for sale later on, count me in.

[moparman76_69]

To be honest, you sound like you're butt hurt over the fact she won't wait for you on a group buy. I asked how long she would let it run, if I would have the money by then I would have ponied it up, if not I would have made a decision on paying full price later or buying a different product.

As for the product itself. Having the people "behind it" start to argue and belittle people just as much as the people asking for proof really makes those of us "outside" of the argument not want to deal with the product or the vendor. I'd say at this point Neil is better off selling these to a different group as he has pissed most of us off to the point we wouldn't give him our hard earned cash anyway. This market isn't the same as it was 5-10 years ago. There are people willing to spend money to advance the platform. Assuming we are all "cheap asses" does nothing but insult me.

Personally I agree with closing both threads and letting this idea just die.


Hmmmmm, you just had to fuel the fire some more didn't you?

So your blaming me for FWD's or Neil's decision? Gee thanks, didn't know I had that kind of power, guess I should use my new found power to go conquer the world.

Please quote anywhere in this thread where I called anyone cheap azz's, please, find it, I beg of you. If your assuming your a cheap azz, then you are insulting yourself, good one, :nod:

As for being butt hurt, try again, and I won't explain again what I keep saying.


So again, because you don't get it, if they come up for sale later on, count me in.

I'm not the one who can't comprehend you are. I quoted myself and highlight it so you can follow along. The red part is meant for you the blue part was meant for neil or cindy. I know you want this part I can tell, I'm just saying you are trying to argue for her to wait until spring when it isn't your decision it is hers.

[BadAssPerformance]

Lastly, I attached a pic of a time slip of one of the earliest SRT TCS test cars. This car had relatively mild mods, and a stock turbo. With slicks, yes. Are you cutting those times with slicks (with less than 300hp on tap)? Consistently? If so, you are so awesome, that's all I have to say.

Nice timeslip. Details on the car? Mods? Slick size? You said mild... got any customers with high HP car timeslips? (what I'm looking for) and timeslips on street tires? (to back up said claims)


Some of the very people who were most vocal (and not just in these two threads, I might add) are indeed never going to buy TCS (let's not kid ourselves). If you admit it to yourself, you'll know it's true.

Lets see, Simon, tryingbe and JT were those blamed for this not happening, so probably the "most vocal" ?

Simon - Was almost first in line for it, loves gizmos, cannot afford it till after holidays
tryingbe - was ready to buy, has cash (pictured) waiting for street tire timeslip, may have lost interest waiting 12 pages?
JT - has cash, interested in seeing it on a high HP car on slicks and any car on street tires

If you look back thru this thread, you will see many folks interested in this product. If you admit it to yourself, you'll know it's true.


We will be going to the track again, and making a series of runs on more than one car, to bring that tech back.

Great news! This is all anyone has asked for right!? Claims to be backed up by track testing is awesome.


Take Fox body Mustangs, for instance. Compare the numbers, and Ford built far less of those than Chrysler did of FWD turbo cars.

Not sure where you were going with that, but the production numbers are similar, and that is comparing apples to oranges.

Every Fox is a "race car" (quotes due to thousands of wanna be race cars) and the Fox was the "bolt on" king from ~1985 until the LS1's took that crown... THIS is why they have a huge aftermarket. It does not take much skill or intelligence to wave a Summit Racing or Jegs catalog over a 5.0L or LS1 and make it quick.

Horizons, Lebarons, New Yorkers, etc? Yes, there were a lot of them made, many with factory turbo engines, but never were the "easy" way to do it for most folks, and most TM's are toyed with by folks like us that like to DIY it because that is a ton more fun than!

Yes, this community like cheap fun, and most in this community are DIYers that like to ficgure stuff out the hard way. You have been around a long time, this should not be a surprise


but the attack dog mentality of some, instead of letting time and reason prevail is simply amazing.

Not sure what you are reffering to "attack dog" ? but can guess you are refering to the repetative asking for data???

This happens in any internet argument when one thing is claimed, others ask for proof, then for pages they get the "go look, its out there" and even after they look and cannot find it, they ask again for data. So repetatively asking for data to back up said claim is an "attack" ? Maybe if they were given anything other than "go look for yourself" they wouldnt have asked again?

Besides, they are asking, not to be "attack dogs" but because they are interested in your products and looking for data. That is all. If you think that that was an "attack" then maybe selling stuff isn't your thing? Or you like to play the victim? Whatever...


The idea that mods would jump in like they did, and then refuse to moderate - in a paid vendor's section - is also amazing and deplorable.

Please explain what you mean by "refuse to moderate" ?

The staff in this thread (myself included) have told others (in this thread and/or via PM) to calm down and act civil. At the same time, I do not think that any Staff sent Cindy a PM for calling Simon a "doucher" which is probably cuz he knows he was and deserved it? LOL j/k... C'mon man we all joke around right?

Or are you saying that because this is a paid vendor section, that any post questioning the product should be removed? Not sure if that would be in the best interest of any vendor or customer tho... So I am confused.

Please explain your concern so we can better help our vendors out.

BTW, are you teamed up with FWDP now, or merely marketing your products through them?

Cindy, this is your section, and we value you as a vendor. Please advise how the TM Staff could have handled this differently so maybe future threads can be more mutually beneficial.


In closing, R/T TCS units will proceed. How many is in question, but there are those who stepped up in the original group buy for the already developed and tested units. SOHC is off the table indefinitely. Go ahead and abuse me again (as so many of you did, without any moderation) for being crazy, missing the market, etc, etc. R/T development is done. SOHC is not.

Nice summary

[turbovanman²]

I'm not the one who can't comprehend you are. I quoted myself and highlight it so you can follow along. The red part is meant for you the blue part was meant for neil or cindy. I know you want this part I can tell, I'm just saying you are trying to argue for her to wait until spring when it isn't your decision it is hers.

Sorry, it comes across differently, accept my apology.




Lets see, Simon, tryingbe and JT were those blamed for this not happening, so probably the "most vocal" ?

Simon - Was almost first in line for it, loves gizmos, cannot afford it till after holidays


Mmmmmmmm, love gizmo's, :love: but yeah, agreed.



The staff in this thread (myself included) have told others (in this thread and/or via PM) to calm down and act civil. At the same time, I do not think that any Staff sent Cindy a PM for calling Simon a "doucher" which is probably cuz he knows he was and deserved it? LOL j/k... C'mon man we all joke around right?



Double damn, :( ;)


In closing, R/T TCS units will proceed. How many is in question, but there are those who stepped up in the original group buy for the already developed and tested units. SOHC is off the table indefinitely. Go ahead and abuse me again (as so many of you did, without any moderation) for being crazy, missing the market, etc, etc. R/T development is done. SOHC is not.

That is truly sad, I won't say anymore, enough has been said.

Let me ask you this, how many sales did you get at TD?

[nemiro]

JT-
Appreciate your sentiment, but at the same time, you did not see the PMs and emails I got. I am still astounded at the tone, and viciousness. As for the whole proof thing, I believe I gave enough data on everything to support the claims, short of every conceivable time slip. Yes, I need some more on street tires, but as I said earlier in the thread, those were lost when SRT Forums shut down the NDE section, unfortunately. We will do more testing, and come back with the same claim, because we know it works - but with back to back time slips to prove it. Until then, that issue needs to die for now.

As I also stated, it was not the request for data that aggravated me. It was the constant hounding over price, and when the group buy would happen. It's nice that people will support it in the future, but I seem to have explained until I am blue in the face why that is not possible. As some stepped up the attack on that, it aggravated me. That coupled with other criticisms led to the decision. Do I need to say more on this?

The car in the time slip was mostly stock. Mods were CAI and Stage 2 package. Boost was 20psi spike, falling to 17-18psi at redline. That was it. Given how the stock SRT-4 turbo spools up, and almost always incinerates the tires (including slicks), the 60' time is pretty darn impressive. BTW, most S2 cars running like this put between 260 and 275 hp to the ground (no matter what Dynojets might tell you).

Fox bodies and Chrysler turbo cars are more similar than you might guess. That vast majority of Mustangs were NA 2.3's (and some V6's). V8 performance was anemic, at best. Handling pretty much sucks. I know. I still own a 91 LX 5.0, and have had several SVO Mustangs over the years. The 2.3 Turbo market is virtually identical to the Chrysler Turbo market in almost every way. A much more apples to apples comparison than you might think.

Lastly, when I do post up data, I know what will happen, as I have been down this road. People will discredit the data, citing all sorts of scenarios that do not line up with their expectations or estimations of real life (heck, not a single comment on the video I posted last night, including that one that showed repeated launches of a TCS equipped SRT and one without). I have been through this many times. The best thing that ALL of the skeptics could have done here was to just bide their time, and wait until those who know about TCS line up for the group buy. Get some units out there, and then see from those peoples' results, as to whether or not they wanted it. Instead, it seemed easier to keep the argument up over the cited 60' time, instead of quantifying the potential of the system. I did some searching around, and I have not seen that much emphasis put on ANY claim for ANY product on this forum - ever! Not trying to evade responsibility, but it seems that it got a little out of hand.

In the future, should I, or any other manufacturer come up with a product, and they cannot back up a claim, and yet, enough people are interested, then let it go. Let the people who are willing to step up and take a chance and be the trailblazers. There will no doubt be some products that will and some that won't make the cut. That is how it always goes, no matter what product or what type of market. Instead, what happened here just cut off the potential for a new product - tested or not. Might seem like wisdom in the short run, but may prove to be folly in the long run.

FWIW, despite all of this, Cindy called me today to lobby me behind the scenes on behalf of the community (after the abuse dished out at her, can you believe that?). She would like to see me go ahead with development. I am so soured right now, that I am still planning to not do it. However, the point here is that despite all that was dished out to her, the names she has been called, she still believes in you guys. The community ought to be proud to have a vendor of her caliber.

I have no connection to Cindy, nor FWD, other than we have become friends over the years. We are not partnered, nor are our businesses affiliated. I have developed products over the years, and she has repeatedly been the vendor to say that she wanted to market it. Has worked good for her, and has worked good for me. I distribute through other vendors in other markets, too. Everyone has their preferences on vendors, but no one can argue that the market would be better off without her. Be careful to not run her off.

[turbovanman²]

FWIW, despite all of this, Cindy called me today to lobby me behind the scenes on behalf of the community (after the abuse dished out at her, can you believe that?). She would like to see me go ahead with development. I am so soured right now, that I am still planning to not do it. However, the point here is that despite all that was dished out to her, the names she has been called, she still believes in you guys. The community ought to be proud to have a vendor of her caliber.



Who called her names? I am the only one that got called names, :(

Glad she wants it, so do I hear Spring? :eyebrows: :lol:

[nemiro]

She called me today pretty upset about what she has been called both as a result of this situation, and in general. Let's just say if someone called your Wife or GF some of the things she has been called (and I have heard it myself at some of the events I have attended), you'd deck that person.


No, you do not hear spring. I am going to enjoy my Christmas, and not be working on this at all.

[turbovanman²]

She called me today pretty upset about what she has been called both as a result of this situation, and in general. Let's just say if someone called your Wife or GF some of the things she has been called (and I have heard it myself at some of the events I have attended), you'd deck that person.


No, you do not hear spring. I am going to enjoy my Christmas, and not be working on this at all.

Bummer, people should never resort to that.

I hope we all enjoy Xmas, :nod:

[trannybuster]

Well I could HAVE enjoyed xmas...Kudos to Cindy for doing all she could to try and make this happen, shame that all parties involved could not see it through, especially since she stood up and anounced it as doable with the preorders.

[BadAssPerformance]

JT-
Appreciate your sentiment, but at the same time, you did not see the PMs and emails I got.

Sorry to hear that. We stay out of PM's and e-mails. Please feel free to handle those as you see fit.


As I also stated, it was not the request for data that aggravated me. It was the constant hounding over price, and when the group buy would happen.

Actually your last post didnt say this and just said "attack dogs" or something like that, but really who cares.... you summed it up, you're not the vendor, so maybe let Cindy handle that, she definitely knows what she's doing :thumb:


The car in the time slip was mostly stock. Mods were CAI and Stage 2 package. Boost was 20psi spike, falling to 17-18psi at redline. That was it.

Cool. Again, what size slicks?


FWIW, despite all of this, Cindy called me today to lobby me behind the scenes on behalf of the community (after the abuse dished out at her, can you believe that?). She would like to see me go ahead with development. I am so soured right now, that I am still planning to not do it. However, the point here is that despite all that was dished out to her, the names she has been called, she still believes in you guys. The community ought to be proud to have a vendor of her caliber.

I have no connection to Cindy, nor FWD, other than we have become friends over the years. We are not partnered, nor are our businesses affiliated. I have developed products over the years, and she has repeatedly been the vendor to say that she wanted to market it. Has worked good for her, and has worked good for me. I distribute through other vendors in other markets, too. Everyone has their preferences on vendors, but no one can argue that the market would be better off without her. Be careful to not run her off.

Thanks.

Cindy, not sure if you saw my note below:


Cindy, this is your section, and we value you as a vendor. Please advise how the TM Staff could have handled this differently so maybe future threads can be more mutually beneficial.

Please advise :thumb:

[cordes]

She called me today pretty upset about what she has been called both as a result of this situation, and in general. Let's just say if someone called your Wife or GF some of the things she has been called (and I have heard it myself at some of the events I have attended), you'd deck that person.


No, you do not hear spring. I am going to enjoy my Christmas, and not be working on this at all.

If folks are calling her names she should forward that to us. It's inappropriate and I'm sure it would be dealt with pretty swiftly.

[black86glhs]

Compare that to other markets of cars built in similar numbers. Take Fox body Mustangs, for instance. Compare the numbers, and Ford built far less of those than Chrysler did of FWD turbo cars. Have you ever seen the aftermarket for those cars? The simple fact is that it costs less to get a 2.2/2.5 car to go fast, and the price of admission is negligible.Ok, so here you mention Mustangs.
Fox bodies and Chrysler turbo cars are more similar than you might guess. That vast majority of Mustangs were NA 2.3's (and some V6's). V8 performance was anemic, at best. Handling pretty much sucks. I know. I still own a 91 LX 5.0, and have had several SVO Mustangs over the years. The 2.3 Turbo market is virtually identical to the Chrysler Turbo market in almost every way. A much more apples to apples comparison than you might think.Now you narrow it down to the turbo Mustangs. You jump around around a lot. Most FWD Mopars in the 80's were either N/A 2.2/2.5 or 3.0 mitsu V6, not turbo powered. Look it up, not my interpretation. Edit: Forgot about the 2.6 mitsu 4 cyl.
As I also stated, it was not the request for data that aggravated me. It was the constant hounding over price, and when the group buy would happen. It's nice that people will support it in the future, but I seem to have explained until I am blue in the face why that is not possible.No one and I repeat no one was complaining about the price. They were saying if they were going to drop the scratch for it, they should be shown what it could do, not be told to look it up on the internet. Simon's issue is that he didn't have it right now and was wanting the group buy in spring so he could get the good deal. Not that he thought the price was a problem.
If you guys were sent PM and emails that were nasty, that was a poor choice on those that did that. If was not representative of Turbo-Mopar.com or it's staff.
So when someone in class did something and the whole class got punished for it, you were ok with that, right? You never thought, "Wait a minute! I didn't do anything but I have to pay for it? This isn't fair!" If you didn't, then I can understand why you want to punish everyone here. It all makes sense.

[nemiro]

I've now said it several times. It was not, I repeat, it was not the requests for data that upset me. And yes, the actions of a few ruined it.

I was already reluctant to deliver the product, and the events of the last week sure did push it over the edge for me, so yeah, the whole class got the punishment. Fair? Certainly not. Try to put yourself in my shoes, understand the commitment that has to be made to bring this product to maturity, and then realize, and agree (even if you don't) with my decision.

/thread

[turbovanman²]

I've now said it several times. It was not, I repeat, it was not the requests for data that upset me. And yes, the actions of a few ruined it.

I was already reluctant to deliver the product, and the events of the last week sure did push it over the edge for me, so yeah, the whole class got the punishment. Fair? Certainly not. Try to put yourself in my shoes, understand the commitment that has to be made to bring this product to maturity, and then realize, and agree (even if you don't) with my decision.

/thread

Your decision makes absolutely no sense, all we see is, "I got my feelings hurt so screw you all, I am outta here" attitude. That's something 5 year olds do in school.

Again, your choice and certainly a poor one.

[nemiro]

Poor? By whose definition, Simon?

[dodgeshadowchik]

Your decision makes absolutely no sense, all we see is, "I got my feelings hurt so screw you all, I am outta here" attitude. That's something 5 year olds do in school.

Again, your choice and certainly a poor one.

Also the "No matter how much I try to manipulate this scenario to my favor; they see right through it. Whatever, I'll just keep lying and belittling them."

Neil, I am sorry, but this type of behavior reflects very poorly on you and also creates a major cloud of doubt. No one in thread called Cindy anything. As mentioned, that would have been delt with quickly. PM's and emails we have no control over. Your videos and timeslip WAS acknowledged by JT; but in that long winded post you said it was ignored. Again, it was twisted in a way to favor you.

Up until the last few pages, this thread was very civil and brought up some valid concerns. But when someone chooses to continue to ignore those concerns, beat around the bush, and play mind games to insult the people on here.... well, yeah, there will be some retaliation.

:/

[DodgeZ]

To back up that I have money, here's a picture of proof.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/tune/440.jpg

i gotz proof too

[moparman76_69]

i gotz proof too

Yeah, well I took a pic of mine too.

http://media1.break.com/breakstudios/2011/11/17/stacks%20of%20money.jpg

[DodgeZ]

http://hoodicons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/stack_of_money.jpg

[nemiro]

Also the "No matter how much I try to manipulate this scenario to my favor; they see right through it. Whatever, I'll just keep lying and belittling them."

Neil, I am sorry, but this type of behavior reflects very poorly on you and also creates a major cloud of doubt. No one in thread called Cindy anything. As mentioned, that would have been delt with quickly. PM's and emails we have no control over. Your videos and timeslip WAS acknowledged by JT; but in that long winded post you said it was ignored. Again, it was twisted in a way to favor you.

Up until the last few pages, this thread was very civil and brought up some valid concerns. But when someone chooses to continue to ignore those concerns, beat around the bush, and play mind games to insult the people on here.... well, yeah, there will be some retaliation.

:/

Well, honestly, the way you, as a mod are conducting yourself in this thread at this point reflects poorly on you, then. No manipulation on my part. Who is playing the mind games, now? Time to close this thread out.

[glhs727]

Also the "No matter how much I try to manipulate this scenario to my favor; they see right through it. Whatever, I'll just keep lying and belittling them."

Neil, I am sorry, but this type of behavior reflects very poorly on you and also creates a major cloud of doubt. No one in thread called Cindy anything. As mentioned, that would have been delt with quickly. PM's and emails we have no control over. Your videos and timeslip WAS acknowledged by JT; but in that long winded post you said it was ignored. Again, it was twisted in a way to favor you.

Up until the last few pages, this thread was very civil and brought up some valid concerns. But when someone chooses to continue to ignore those concerns, beat around the bush, and play mind games to insult the people on here.... well, yeah, there will be some retaliation.

:/

WOW! Posts like this is the problem!
Neil didn't lie. There was tons of proof of the effectiveness of the tcs on the forum in the old NDE section. Any TD guy that has been a regular on the srt forums will remember the "driver's mod" thread. Just because it wasn't posted here, doesn't mean it never happened. Too bad it was deleted when NDE's forum was shut down. He showed several vids of the TCS in action. I own a car with the TCS and love it. BUT because there are no back to back 60 ft comparisons, somehow that makes Neil a liar?? farthest from the truth, and statements like the one above is wrong! Trashing someone reputation because you don't get an answer or result or proof within 2-3 days? How nice....
This thread should have been closed after Neils post #224, and probably way before that! The same people that pretty much derailed this project are the same people that keep coming back to have "the last word". Enough is enough! If you beleive the TCS will work on your car, great! Save your money and wait. Those that won't buy one until they are 100% satisfied it will work through whatever magic number is their buy trigger, great wait..... and maybe someday you will buy.
I can count at least 5 mods in this thread, and most of them were only fanning the fire not actually doing moderation. Moderation should have been early on saying: Neil we would like proof of xyz. Neil came out and showed what proof he had and acknowledged some proof was no longer publically availabe due to the NDE forum being deleted. Either way, at that point a mod should have stepped in and said "OK, for those that feel what little proof was provided is good enough or beleive this product will work, get in on the grup buy, The rest that do not feel it will work or that haven't seen enough proof, stop posting and wait until the product comes out and see what gains are mades" simple as that. Instead the few that could not let it go, kept pestering until Neil finally had enough. I'm sorry, but getting a manufacturer to continue to make products for our cars, or make NEW products for our cars in next to impoosible, and when one does step up,this is what happens....

[DodgeZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxFGhQsaSwI

[GLHNSLHT2]

This whole thread is sad. I thought the people at TM were better than this. I hope it's just cabin fever.

[DodgeZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbbuaIA3Ds

[BadAssPerformance]

Thread Closed.


There was tons of proof of the effectiveness of the tcs on the forum in the old NDE section. Any TD guy that has been a regular on the srt forums will remember the "driver's mod" thread. Just because it wasn't posted here, doesn't mean it never happened. Too bad it was deleted when NDE's forum was shut down.

Most of us do not frequent SRTForums and never saw the NDE thread you reference. It is very unfortunate that all of that data/proof was lost.


This thread should have been closed after Neils post #224, and probably way before that!

Yes, this should have been closed way before that, and I was going to, however, we were waiting for Neil to post the timeslip he mentioned.


I can count at least 5 mods in this thread, and most of them were only fanning the fire not actually doing moderation.

Please note that DSC and a few other TM Staff members are not "mods" in the Vendor section.


Moderation should have been early on saying: Neil we would like proof of xyz. Neil came out and showed what proof he had and acknowledged some proof was no longer publically availabe due to the NDE forum being deleted. Either way, at that point a mod should have stepped in and said "OK, for those that feel what little proof was provided is good enough or beleive this product will work, get in on the grup buy, The rest that do not feel it will work or that haven't seen enough proof, stop posting and wait until the product comes out and see what gains are mades" simple as that. Instead the few that could not let it go, kept pestering until Neil finally had enough. I'm sorry, but getting a manufacturer to continue to make products for our cars, or make NEW products for our cars in next to impoosible, and when one does step up,this is what happens....

Sorry if I did not have my TM Staff hat firmly on as I was in this thread more as an interested consumer. I think this is a great product for both slicks and street tires and would like to learn more about it. I think my posts in this thread, including digging up timeslip data and videos, show this very well.

I did ask for "proof of xyz" (street tire timeslip) and Neil told us he would post it, and it was not. Yes, at this point, myself or another TM Staff member could have typed something similar to what you posted, or Neil or yourself could have posted something like:

"Sorry, we could not find any street tire timeslips to back up our 60' claim. For those that feel what little proof was provided is good enough or beleive this product will work, get in on the grup buy, The rest that do not feel it will work or that haven't seen enough proof, stop posting and wait until the product comes out and see what gains are made"

Neil was only "pestered" by interested consumers, who probably felt "lead on" by unanswered questions and commets like "go look on the net, proof is all over".

Whatever, its closed and done.

I think we can ALL agree that Vendor, Manufacturer, Consumer and TM Staff could all have acted dirfferetnly in this thread.

:grouphug:

I think we can also agree that we ALL look forward to seeing the T-III TCS come out and seeing the results! :thumb: