HELP: 2.2L Charger

[Swagxengaged]

I have an 85 2.2 charger with the 2 barrel carb. An when idling in park it idles around 2k pretty rough, then when dropped into drive she will stall out unless you give her some gas.

Any suggestions?

[zin]

Sounds like it needs a rebuild... It should idle closer to 800. Does it stall out because it is rich? Kinda sounds like it is stuck on fast idle, which could mean the vacuum pull-off isn't hooked up or functioning, this could also mean the choke is on or stuck...

This all assumes an otherwise healthy engine, if it is running that rough, there are probably other issues. I'd suggest doing a quick compression test to make sure the head gasket is still OK, next I'd check all vacuum lines going to/from the carb/intake and make sure they are all in good shape ie, not leaking. Even if the hoses are in good shape, the parts they connect to might not be, things like EGR or the Brake Booster could cause problems. A sizable vacuum leak will cause a high idle, EGR being active at idle will make the engine die (a leaky EGR can do the same). If you go do the rest of what is listed here and it still idles high, you may want to try plugging off all the vacuum outlets on the bottom of the carb and the intake, just as a test to see if the idle problem goes away, but this is a PITA so only do it as a last resort.

I would also be a good idea to check the timing belt for proper alignment and once that is confirmed OK, check the ignition timing as well as the cap/rotor/plugs/wires, basic tune-up stuff, yes, but might be contributing to the roughness...

Since it is the easiest thing to do right away, pull the air cleaner off the carb (plug any vacuum lines that you might disconnect in the process) and check to see if the choke is on. If it isn't uncomfortably cold out, it shouldn't need it to start and run. IIRC, you should be able to pull the choke blade open with your finger and then move the throttle a small amount, this should do two things, one, disengage the fast idle cam/step and allow the choke to stay off. Next try starting the car, but don't touch the throttle, if you do, it will re-set the fast idle and choke. If you get it started and it idles properly and smoothly (at least as smooth as a 2.2 can be expected to run), then the problem is in the vacuum circuit that controls the fast idle/choke, specifically the thermo vacuum valve and/or the vacuum pull-off itself (assuming again that the rest of the vacuum lines are routed correctly and not leaking)...

I'm going off memory here and it's been over 20yrs since I owned one of these so some of the details may be different, but this should get you on the right track.

Can you provide any other background? Was this problem suddenly pop up or is this a car that is new to you....?

Mike

PS The choke should have an electric element that helps time how long it stays on, if that is bad or not hooked up, it would make the choke stay on.

[turbovanman²]

Check for vacuum leaks or a leaking base gasket. Did this just start doing this?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Sounds like a vacuum leak.

[Swagxengaged]

Well It happened right after I had a guy rebuild the carb for me, I installed it and about 2 minutes later it blew out the egr valve. It wouldnt idle in park or drive after that so I decided to replace the egr but the bolts were rusted an rounded off, so I took a torch an cut off the egr and pluged the hole. After that it would idle high an rough in park an stall out in drive.

But its got fairly new plugs, wires, cap rotor, timing belt is also pretty new.

I have also replaced most of the vacuum hoses from the carb

[zin]

Fix the egr correctly, the computer will expect it to be there and add a bunch of timing to compensate for the diluted mixture just like you would do for a lean mixture, bad things might happen if you don't, besides, it's likely to be leaky causing it to run crappy.

Aside from the egr be positive that the vacuum lines are routed correctly, you might want to make the rebuilder aware of your issues to see if it's something he might have an insight into ...as in fix it under warranty.

Could also be a leaky base gasket, as I think TVM mentioned, try spaying some carb cleaner around the base of the carb while it's running to see if it gets sucked in and causes the engine to run differently. If so you'll want to pull the carb to not only replace the gasket, but to check the base of the carb for flatness with a straight edge and some feeler gauges. If it's not too badly warped, you could try adding a very thin layer of sealer like gas resistance RTV to fill in the gap.

Since the carb was off and that's about the time the problem started, it is most likely a vacuum leak, and a pretty big one (if the EGR)isn't leaking) .

If you dont have a mechanic's stethoscope, use a section of vacuum tubing as one by holding one end to your ear while moving the other around the carb and other places you might get a vacuum leak (brake booster, etc).

Heck! It could be as simple as a loose carb or improperly torqued nuts! (Insert crude remark hehere

Mike

[Swagxengaged]

Could it possibly be something the guy did when he rebuilt it?

[zin]

Could it possibly be something the guy did when he rebuilt it?

It's possible, but I'm hard pressed to think of what he could have done to make it run ok, then not idle below 2K and run rough...

But the EGR or a vacuum leak could. Since it was fine for some time, I'm a little doubtful it's the carb rebuild, but I suggested you talk to him just in case he noticed something funky while he was working on it, kind of hoping he might have noticed something and could put you on the right track, saving you some time...

I'm leaning toward a vacuum leak or the EGR. If the EGR isn't hooked up to the right port on the carb, which should be a "timed" port, meaning it will see vacuum only when the throttle is partly open, and no vacuum when it is at idle. It would also not see vacuum until the thermal-vacuum switch says the car has warmed up. These two things keep the car from running like crap as it can't handle a diluted mixture when it is cold or at idle. So the port makes sure the EGR can't get the vacuum it needs to open until you are off idle and the thermal-switch makes sure that, even if you are off idle, you won't have EGR until the car has warmed up.

If you get dilution (EGR valve on or a vacuum leak), the carb won't be putting in enough fuel to make the car run right or sometimes even at all at lower RPMs, so it seems to match the problems you're describing.

Since you had definite problems with the EGR, I'd look at that pretty hard, once I'd made sure there weren't any vacuum lines broken or leaking and that the carb was still properly torqued down (not too tight and not loose), since that is quick and easy (not to mention cheap) to do and on cars as old as ours, a pretty likely issue...

In fact, as a rule, one of the first things I'll do with a newly acquired car is replace the vacuum lines, check valves, etc, one at a time and then do a full tune-up (change oil & filter/air filter/plugs/wires/cap/rotor, check timing belt alignment, set timing). This way I know I have a good baseline and that those items aren't likely to be the source of problems down the road. In your case I'd add adjust idle mixture on the carb as well, assuming the limiter caps were removed and the mixture screws are accessible... This would probably be best done by someone who has experience, which will mean "the old guy" at the shop as I doubt they still teach carb tuning/adjustment at the auto schools these days...

Mike

[Swagxengaged]

Is there anyway to properly do away with the egr? The bolts are still bolted into the manifold(rusted an rounded off) The only way I can think of the get them off is to remove the mani an take a torch an try to heat em up an easy out them.

[zin]

You just described the proper way! I'm suspecting that this is your problem... The EGR is there but not sealing, letting either air (vacuum leak), or exhaust (EGR gases) to get into the intake due to the thing not being torqued down properly (rounded bolts, etc).

If you can get the bolts out and just replace the EGR, I'd bet you fix your problem. If not, just slip a BB into the end of the hose going to the EGR, it would stop the valve from opening, but if the computer still thinks it's working, it may try to add a bunch of timing, so the real fix here is just to "do it right", it should fix the problem without introducing others. Sucks, but sometimes the long way is the best way....

Mike

[ScottD]

You may have a vacuum leak where the EGR mounts.

When I did my 85 Turismo project I removed the EGR and made a little block off plate. Be sure to use an EGR gasket and the metal you use is decent thickness. I also have a pipe plug in there too, I can't remember what that went to but I'm sure it was probably emissions related.

The car ran fine without the EGR.

35581

[zin]

You may have a vacuum leak where the EGR mounts.

A bit more concise than me, but we are in agreement...

Other than not replacing the EGR. Don't get me wrong, If the computer won't jack-up the timing more than needed, it WILL make more power and get better MPG, but without a way for the computer to know it's not there, or more correctly there isn't any exhaust gas diluting the mix, it will add the timing, since it doesn't know any better, which could cause detonation.

Your saving grace may have been the fact any detonation would be at light load so the energy involved would be pretty low so the damage might take a long time to add up...

At any rate, I'd look real had at the EGR, and if you cannot replace the valve, well, then you do what you feel comfortable doing.

Mike

[ScottD]

I thought EGRs slow combustion which is compensated for by advancing the timing. Without an EGR, why would the computer advance timing? Also, aren't most EGR systems not employed under heavy load because doing so would reduce the power output? The EGR reduces intake charge density which in turn reduces power.

I'm all for fixing things properly, and replacing the EGR in this case is definitely an option. However, it's not the only option, and I don't think a replacement EGR valve is necessary to fix your issue. EGR valves do one thing. They stick over time and cause more problems than they are worth. I eliminated the EGR on my 86 GLHS for this reason as well and have had no issues with it either.

As Simon suggested, I'd also check the base gasket for the carb. Make sure the mating surfaces (bottom of the carb, the intake) are clean before install.

Also, on these intakes, the part of the intake that the carb bolts to can loosen up over time. This mounting plate is secured with four fasteners, make sure they are tight. Good luck!

[black86glhs]

EGR is used to keep combustion temps down. This lowers NOx emissions. It may slow combustion down a tad, but mainly to cool things in the chamber.

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[Swagxengaged]

I dont think its leaking where the egr is mounted. I tapped the hole an have a brass plug an teflon it. Im thinking maybe the other end might be leaking, Ill give it a look later on today