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errol
11-15-2011, 08:34 PM
hello again ppl.Is there someone in the mids of this forum that actually make a tubular header for our cars!!?

turbovanmanČ
11-15-2011, 09:28 PM
Bug "badassperformance", tell him to get his azz into gear, "2point2" can make you one, as well as "lonewolfperformance.com"

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2011, 11:21 PM
Moved the thread to "exhaust" section.

A couple prototypes have been made and tested. The bottom one in the pic is the original thin wall mild steel prototype that used to be on my Z when it was a 2.2L. It survived pretty well for being on the car from '02-'06. The top one in the pic is a thick wall SS prototype that was tested this year on a 2.5L Shelby Charger.

I had planned to do a "group buy" on the SS ones once tested, but wasn't sure there was interest since ported stockers run 10's...

30 PSI SHADOW
11-16-2011, 12:35 AM
yeah, maybe with 35+ psi of boost. regardless, let us know about the testing...

86seeS
11-16-2011, 01:10 AM
How did the header fit in an L-body?

Shadow
11-16-2011, 01:22 AM
Test results from this year on the S/C? What size ID is the thick walled SS?

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 02:12 AM
I had planned to do a "group buy" on the SS ones once tested, but wasn't sure there was interest since ported stockers run 10's...

For the 100th time, quit testing and make the damn things, :eyebrows:

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2011, 02:21 PM
How did the header fit in an L-body?

It fit great on a car without power steering and with a custom downpipe. the only issue was I had to modify runner #2 to get mounting stud clearance.


Test results from this year on the S/C? What size ID is the thick walled SS?

So far so good, no issues with warpage, leakage or anything noted, but have not taken it off for analysis yet. It's been a while, I'd have to dig to find the size. There was only one standard size that was large enough for the port area and small enough to fit the bolts past.


For the 100th time, quit testing and make the damn things, :eyebrows:

Sorry, just trying to make sure stuff works...

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 02:25 PM
Sorry, just trying to make sure stuff works...

4 years? :lol: Even the OEM's don't test for that long, :faint: :bolt:

shmedley
11-16-2011, 02:32 PM
4 years? :lol: Even the OEM's don't test for that long, :faint: :bolt:

It was just put on a L body at the begining of the year.
It's not like he is taking as long as you are to get 22shelby his wires that he won in your give away last year :banghead:

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2011, 02:36 PM
:lol: nice... OEM's have a bunch more resources too

As far as testing... the SS header was test fit 2 years ago on L-body and P-body with power steering a couple years ago, but it was only put on a car this year, so it really doesn't have much time on it. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put it on the Shadow and daily drove it all year instead of a car which doesnt see much street use. Maybe I'll do that for 2012?

Really, I would like this thing to be bullet proof before making more, but maybe those who want a group buy dont care about stuff? Stuff like....

Is anyone gonna complain if they buy it and it doesn't fit their car and have to do custom mods to make it fit?

Is anyone gonna complain if they have to make their own custom downpipe?

Is anyone gonna complain if a weld cracks?

Is anyone gonna complain if a flange warps?

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 02:42 PM
It was just put on a L body at the begining of the year.
It's not like he is taking as long as you are to get 22shelby his wires that he won in your give away last year :banghead:

I sent them out, sorry he didn't get them, everyone else did, I asked for his address again and didn't get it, so its my fault? :banghead: Attitudes like this and probably why I won't do it again this year.

Edit, IIRC, Blackglhs paid the shipping so I'll send the shipping money back, or if you/he did, post up the paypal addy and I'll refund the money. Damn, my bad. Wonder why some people won't do shitt like this. :censored:


:lol: nice... OEM's have a bunch more resources too

As far as testing... the SS header was test fit 2 years ago on L-body and P-body with power steering a couple years ago, but it was only put on a car this year, so it really doesn't have much time on it. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put it on the Shadow and daily drove it all year instead of a car which doesnt see much street use. Maybe I'll do that for 2012?

Really, I would like this thing to be bullet proof before making more, but maybe those who want a group buy dont care about stuff? Stuff like....

Is anyone gonna complain if they buy it and it doesn't fit their car and have to do custom mods to make it fit?

Is anyone gonna complain if they have to make their own custom downpipe?

Is anyone gonna complain if a weld cracks?

Is anyone gonna complain if a flange warps?

LOL, yeah, I know, just buggin ya but you do have that option, Option A is it looks like it works, buy it at own risk or Option B, wait another 4 years, :p

4 l-bodies
11-16-2011, 03:34 PM
JRB exhaust had a stainless tubular one made probably ten years ago or more. It was designed to fit exactly where log manifold turbo flange ended up, so it was truly a bolt on install. Unfortunately it warped real bad. He had it straightened by same fab shop that made it and he sold it to Jay on this forum. My understanding is it warped on Jay too.
I've got a bunch of pics of it but would have to scan them, as this was long before digital cameras were the norm.
I know my TBI header that I had made up (flame spray welded) and heavily ported, works very well. I had it flow benched by same guy that flowbenched 16V masi, modified ported masi, stock log, ported log, and TU's cast log manifold.
My TBI header is now going on other car along with ATP's V-band swingvalve, so it should work even better.
Todd

4 l-bodies
11-16-2011, 03:44 PM
There have actually been several one off tubular headers built. Even DC made a prototype that was supposed to make production, but never did. Some on cars currently, some that have come and gone, some that will surface this next year. I have some pics of one being built that looks very well designed. I won't post pics as this is owners decision not mine. But it was designed and built by a very respected TM guy.
Todd

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 03:53 PM
There have actually been several one off tubular headers built. Even DC made a prototype that was supposed to make production, but never did. Some on cars currently, some that have come and gone, some that will surface this next year. I have some pics of one being built that looks very well designed. I won't post pics as this is owners decision not mine. But it was designed and built by a very respected TM guy.
Todd

Aaron M? :eyebrows:

4 l-bodies
11-16-2011, 04:05 PM
Aaron M? :eyebrows:
Nope, but good guess. Quality is in same league as Warren's header.

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 04:12 PM
Nope, but good guess. Quality is in same league as Warren's header.

LOL, all I know with that quality are Warren, Aaron or it could be Brian Slowe.

Shadow
11-16-2011, 06:22 PM
LOL, all I know with that quality are Warren, Aaron or it could be Brian Slowe.

Keep guessing, but go back even further, I think I know which header Todd is talking about. :)

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 06:23 PM
Keep guessing, but go back even further, I think I know which header Todd is talking about. :)

I'm out, that's all I know, lol.

Shadow
11-16-2011, 06:26 PM
:lol: nice... OEM's have a bunch more resources too

As far as testing... the SS header was test fit 2 years ago on L-body and P-body with power steering a couple years ago, but it was only put on a car this year, so it really doesn't have much time on it. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put it on the Shadow and daily drove it all year instead of a car which doesnt see much street use. Maybe I'll do that for 2012?

Really, I would like this thing to be bullet proof before making more, but maybe those who want a group buy dont care about stuff? Stuff like....

Is anyone gonna complain if they buy it and it doesn't fit their car and have to do custom mods to make it fit?

Is anyone gonna complain if they have to make their own custom downpipe?

Is anyone gonna complain if a weld cracks?

Is anyone gonna complain if a flange warps?

I heard that! There are those that will put something to market to make $'s and too bad if anything goes wrong, and there are those who care about what their name is attached to and will do the best they can to try and make sure that everything is worked out first.

Good on you that you belong to the second group! :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2011, 08:26 PM
JRB exhaust had a stainless tubular one made probably ten years ago or more. It was designed to fit exactly where log manifold turbo flange ended up, so it was truly a bolt on install. Unfortunately it warped real bad. He had it straightened by same fab shop that made it and he sold it to Jay on this forum. My understanding is it warped on Jay too.
I've got a bunch of pics of it but would have to scan them, as this was long before digital cameras were the norm.
I know my TBI header that I had made up (flame spray welded) and heavily ported, works very well. I had it flow benched by same guy that flowbenched 16V masi, modified ported masi, stock log, ported log, and TU's cast log manifold.
My TBI header is now going on other car along with ATP's V-band swingvalve, so it should work even better.
Todd

Jesse's design was great for packaging, but I rememebr hearing it warped as well. This is it right?

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2011, 08:32 PM
There have actually been several one off tubular headers built. Even DC made a prototype that was supposed to make production, but never did. Some on cars currently, some that have come and gone, some that will surface this next year. I have some pics of one being built that looks very well designed. I won't post pics as this is owners decision not mine. But it was designed and built by a very respected TM guy.
Todd

True story, I have pics of a dozen one-offs...

Cool, cant wait to see it!

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------


I heard that! There are those that will put something to market to make $'s and too bad if anything goes wrong, and there are those who care about what their name is attached to and will do the best they can to try and make sure that everything is worked out first.

Good on you that you belong to the second group! :thumb:

Thanks! Yeah... really don't plan to mass produce them unless they have a chance of living. Heck, maybe that is cuz I had to fix my OBX 2.4L POS header twice! LOL!

4 l-bodies
11-16-2011, 08:40 PM
Jesse's design was great for packaging, but I rememebr hearing it warped as well. This is it right?
Yes that is the one.

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 09:23 PM
True story, I have pics of a dozen one-offs...


Nice pics, post up the other one's if you have time.

GLHNSLHT2
11-16-2011, 11:45 PM
JRB exhaust had a stainless tubular one made probably ten years ago or more. It was designed to fit exactly where log manifold turbo flange ended up, so it was truly a bolt on install. Unfortunately it warped real bad. He had it straightened by same fab shop that made it and he sold it to Jay on this forum. My understanding is it warped on Jay too.
I've got a bunch of pics of it but would have to scan them, as this was long before digital cameras were the norm.
I know my TBI header that I had made up (flame spray welded) and heavily ported, works very well. I had it flow benched by same guy that flowbenched 16V masi, modified ported masi, stock log, ported log, and TU's cast log manifold.
My TBI header is now going on other car along with ATP's V-band swingvalve, so it should work even better.
Todd


Jesse's design was great for packaging, but I rememebr hearing it warped as well. This is it right?

Yep, head flange was WAY too thin. It's maybe .375" thick. Needs to be at least .500 or more. I even had it coated to try and keep the heat out of it. That was 3 months of use on low boost. Turbo support bracket was on and tight. I'm not sure if the warping of the head flange is what caused the welds to crack at the collector but they were starting to crack too. Sucks cause I really loved the way the turbo spooled up with it. I was going to make a new head flange for it at work until I found all the cracks in the weld. That's the bad. The good is that it's inspired me to move on to my 16v setup. It'd be a sweet setup if the head flange was thicker and made out of schedule 10 or 30. I'd redo the bends a bit too.

BadAssPerformance
11-17-2011, 12:10 AM
Yep, head flange was WAY too thin. It's maybe .375" thick. Needs to be at least .500 or more. I even had it coated to try and keep the heat out of it. That was 3 months of use on low boost. Turbo support bracket was on and tight. I'm not sure if the warping of the head flange is what caused the welds to crack at the collector but they were starting to crack too. Sucks cause I really loved the way the turbo spooled up with it. I was going to make a new head flange for it at work until I found all the cracks in the weld. That's the bad. The good is that it's inspired me to move on to my 16v setup. It'd be a sweet setup if the head flange was thicker and made out of schedule 10 or 30. I'd redo the bends a bit too.

Flange thickness isn't everything... it has to do with internal stresses during welding. SS has quite a memory

The 1/2" thick SS flange on my OBX 2.4L header has warped and had to be fly cut twice. Resdual internal stresses maybe?

Also, the 1/4" thick MS flange on my first prototype warped during welding so I surface ground it dead flat and the thin side was .122" (not a typo) ... you can see the thin side in the left side of the attached pic. Also, it is coated, but I ground it flat after coating, so that really didnt help as much. I ran it that way from 2002 till the 2.2L let go in 2006. Towards the end, it would leak on the ends, #1 and #4 until it warmed up and sealed. When I took it off and only had a slight bow to it now and didn't sit flat, but it is so thin it actually flexes when clamped down...

EDIT... yes, this pic is from the first round of PS clearance tests, and both header prototypes fit OK

30 PSI SHADOW
11-17-2011, 12:35 AM
i think you are talking about jim mckrackens header? It should still be on the omni from hell. A true 4 into 2 into 1 header. Pipes ran down and back up to stock location. next to warrens, still the best ive seen....

GLHNSLHT2
11-17-2011, 12:57 AM
Jim Mckracken, man I haven't heard that name in a while. D&F right?

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo/turbo_21.jpg

Shadow
11-17-2011, 01:35 AM
Jim Mckracken, man I haven't heard that name in a while. D&F right?

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo/turbo_21.jpg

That's the header I was thinking about!

turbovanmanČ
11-17-2011, 01:50 AM
Jim Mckracken, man I haven't heard that name in a while. D&F right?

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo/turbo_21.jpg

I've seen that posted before, hot damn, :hail:

bakes
11-17-2011, 02:00 AM
For the 100th time, quit testing and make the damn things, :eyebrows:

YA!!! you heard the Man!!!

tryingbe
11-17-2011, 02:51 AM
I was doing some research and I gather all the header pictures I can find on TD and TM.

Enjoy.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/tdheader

turbovanmanČ
11-17-2011, 03:47 AM
Wow, that's alot of pics.

22shelby
11-19-2011, 01:30 PM
I sent them out, sorry he didn't get them, everyone else did, I asked for his address again and didn't get it, so its my fault? :banghead: Attitudes like this and probably why I won't do it again this year.

Edit, IIRC, Blackglhs paid the shipping so I'll send the shipping money back, or if you/he did, post up the paypal addy and I'll refund the money. Damn, my bad. Wonder why some people won't do shitt like this. :censored:



LOL, yeah, I know, just buggin ya but you do have that option, Option A is it looks like it works, buy it at own risk or Option B, wait another 4 years, :p



you had my address twice, once in the original messages on here and also when shmedley sent you the P/P its in the notes on it.... i have all the PMs. you never provided any kind of tracking info nor any proof you sent them out. Me, ive never personally recieved anything from outside of the USA, however you, who shipps stuff constantly into the states could have confronted me if something on my addy was wrong...I.E...country code ore something that wouldnt allow it to be shipped to me. but all seemed fine and i waited and waited and waited then sent you a PM asking again and you said you were going to get a set out on 3-02-11.

of course id rather the wires so if youd like to make good i will send you my address again and you could follow thru and provide some kind of tracking info (i'm sure Canadian postal has something like that, USPS sure does) and make right...

or you can just back out of this all and refund my money for the shipping i had to pay... you can just refund it directly to me as ive stepped out of the stone age and have a P/P account now...

JT im sorry this had to be brought up in this thread but this was brought to my attn anonymously and i had to say something...

we now return to our regularly scheduled T-M thread :p

Vigo
11-19-2011, 02:41 PM
I was doing some research and I gather all the header pictures I can find on TD and TM.

Enjoy.

Wow, i thought i had a lot but probably 50 percent of that is new to me. Im also working on collections of modified swingvalve housings, and modified intake manifolds. :eyebrows:

Thanks for posting that!

shayne
11-19-2011, 03:51 PM
cracking of the welds and warping of stainless manifolds is usually down to the welders capabilities and the materials inherent limitations. properly welded 304 stainless wont hold up as well as 316 stainless which isnt as good as 321 stainless (which is taylored to high heat high stress situations). stainless will almost always warp on the flange face due to heat (stainless moves a whole bunch when being welded, ask any welder) one way to get past the flange warping is to slice the flange face into individual port segments so that the heat has less material to soak into and can exert less force on the flange fitment.
poorly done ss welds will always crack under high heat situations, usually has to do with critical elements being precipitated out due to excess heat and maybe lack of back purge too. the giveaway for lack of backpurge and too hot is what is reffered to as "sugar" on the back side of the welds, its very hard and jagged oxidized ss. if welded properly .060 wall 321 ss can handle an astronomical amount of heat, but comparatively, when guys use 304ss in a sch10(~.100wall, in 1.25 pipe) or sch40 (~.120 wall, in 1.25 pipe) it isnt as resistant to heat and if there is a fault in the welding it will be found, and thats not even accounting for the lack of vibration resistance 304 has when hot..
bottom line is welding is a science that is seldom perfect.

Ondonti
11-19-2011, 06:00 PM
Wanted to throw out a thought about manifolds. If your compressor flow more at higher boost levels, you might see good power on a poor manifold while if your turbo chokes at higher boost levels, you might get more out of your compressor with a setup that requires less boost to make the same power. Holset turbos like to keep flowing but many Garretts seem to die off if you look at the compressor map. Some mitsu turbos are like that as well. That would especially be true if the compressor held high efficiency levels out there in no mans land. I believe many just die off on the compressor map because that is the point where they "limit rpms" on the compressor. You would technically be overspinning the turbo at that point but often you can get away with it. Maybe just not on a Truck that needs to drive 100k miles in boost.

4 l-bodies
11-20-2011, 12:00 AM
Not sure if Tryingbe posted a pic of DC header, as I looked at just a few of his pics. If not, here is a pic of DC header from DC Performance News dated March of 1986. Allso noteworthy was on the cover was B&W pic of the Dodge-DC "P" concept car (Shadow yellowbird).
Todd

GLHNSLHT2
11-20-2011, 12:24 AM
so it's basically the same as the piece from D&F shape wise? A header like that and an ATP SV would be sweet if you could make them durable.

shelbymonster
11-20-2011, 11:42 AM
at work we work a lot with stainless , when doing material matching like ss to steel we do some stress relief in a big oven at about 1000 degrees for 2 days , maybe it would help for those ss manifolds before machining the flanges

8valves
11-20-2011, 11:50 AM
I just pulled this one off of my Daytona that had been on there for around 8K miles and lots of track use. No support brackets of any sorts. I just wiped it down and put it into a customers turbo Van instead. I was trying to find the thread that I did about the A-B dyno test on it, but I couldn't.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/Fabricated%20Pieces/2011-11-12153309.jpg

BadAssPerformance
11-20-2011, 12:00 PM
Cool, how did the flanges look?

I think this is the thread you are looking for HERE (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?32354-Dyno-test-soon-to-follow-EQ-Length-tubular-header)

8valves
11-20-2011, 12:07 PM
No problems with the flanges at all. They are mild steel, tubing is 304SS .063 wall.

BadAssPerformance
11-20-2011, 12:09 PM
Cool... :thumb:

Shadow
11-20-2011, 08:07 PM
No problems with the flanges at all. They are mild steel, tubing is 304SS .063 wall.

I had heard this some years ago, use mild steel for the flange, not SS. Even when the tubing is SS.

shayne
11-20-2011, 08:41 PM
if you use a 309ss tig rod it can work great.

black86glhs
11-20-2011, 09:56 PM
An old hot rodder told me the same many years ago. He said if your worried about rust, do even bother. Then said, that is why you use a thick flange and thick wall tubing. :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
11-21-2011, 02:28 PM
I just pulled this one off of my Daytona that had been on there for around 8K miles and lots of track use. No support brackets of any sorts. I just wiped it down and put it into a customers turbo Van instead. I was trying to find the thread that I did about the A-B dyno test on it, but I couldn't.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/Fabricated%20Pieces/2011-11-12153309.jpg

That van is going to be sick, :thumb:

8valves
11-22-2011, 12:33 AM
I had heard this some years ago, use mild steel for the flange, not SS. Even when the tubing is SS.

If i have a choice i don't build headers that way. I just had the flanges in mild steel when i decided to make it about 3 years ago now.

Yes, it was done with 309 rod.

Shadow
11-22-2011, 11:47 AM
If i have a choice i don't build headers that way. I just had the flanges in mild steel when i decided to make it about 3 years ago now.

Yes, it was done with 309 rod.

So, if your going to use SS flange, how thick? Are ppl running into trouble because they go 3/8" instead of 1/2"? Should you cut the flange to "relieve it?

Any headers I've built, I welded on a spare head and bolted in place and let it completly cool of before unbolting it and Never had a flange warp. Is this the mistake ppl are making, welding the header off the head and warping it?

8valves
11-22-2011, 12:19 PM
So, if your going to use SS flange, how thick? Are ppl running into trouble because they go 3/8" instead of 1/2"? Should you cut the flange to "relieve it?

Any headers I've built, I welded on a spare head and bolted in place and let it completly cool of before unbolting it and Never had a flange warp. Is this the mistake ppl are making, welding the header off the head and warping it?

Correct. I've never had a problem with a 3/8" flange, and do the same process you do. Or I have several 1" thick solid steel plates that I drill/tap for the head flange pattern and weld them on there while backpurging.

I don't do stress relief cuts on any of them. I have done a handful of individually flanged headers, as in a separate flange per port.

I always put the tube INSIDE the header flange, not on the face of it (except for this particular 2.2 header since the tube was so much larger than the port).

If I do weld it off of a head or jig, I then weld the outside to the flange first, then flip it over and fusion weld the inside of the runner to the flange. Usually you can visibly watch it warp one way, then get pulled back flat by fusion welding the inside. It's kind of crazy to watch it.