3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine" [Archive]

MC#4

11-06-2011, 11:41 AM

Project "Green Machine"

See post #47 for new plans.

I recently blew a head gasket on my 3.0 in my shadow and i have 5 months to get it together for the next racing season. I will be starting this project in a month or two, I'm just pooling ideas for now. Here's what I've come up with so far.

Goals

1. The car has to be faster than a bolt on mods AWD Twin Turbo Stealth! http://www.turbododge.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif (~13.50's)
2. Reliability, I want to run it for a few years before I have to tear the motor/trans down. Once and Done!
3. If I can avoid Megasquirt I will.
4. Car will remain street legal and PA Inspectable. (emissions is visual here)
5. Keep the interior looking relatively stock. Car will not be gutted.
6. Must run on 93 pump gas.

Current Configuration (If it's not listed, its stock)

Best pass was 15.28 @ 88.88MPH Only got 4 passes with 50shot of nos and I snapped my jet holder while trying to change em. The car ran 16.00 @ 82MPH all day w/o nos (10+ passes). I suspect the headgasket was leaking during these runs. Best 60' as 2.180 with no burnout.

1. 3.0/A543
2. 225/50/15 drag radials
3. Nitrous (hoping to run 75hp shot) ran a 50hp shot for a few passes.
4. solid front motor mount and rear bobble strut
5. rear air shocks
6. cat gutted
7. wideband 02

Plans (Motor)

1. Port upper and lower intake
2. 58mm Ported throttle body (I have this but not on the car)
3. clean up head ports (basically just polish em since I've never ported heads before.)
4. 5 angle valve job at the machine shop
5. Bored w/torque plate (not sure how far, depends on piston availability)
6. Crank Scraper/Windage tray. (most likely custom)
7. Engine blueprinted and balanced, file fit rings.
8. Very much considering a Single Turbo setup and a custom exhaust (I Know I have to decide before I start)

I also plan to have all the standard checks done, rod straightness, crank polish, heads and block for cracks, yada yada.

Plans (Chassis/Trans)

1. OBX LSD torn down from new and checked out (I've read thier quality control is very lacking)
2. Beefed up clutch (not sure which one yet)
3. Some wieght reduction like rear bumper support and door impact beams, maybe take out A/C even though it works good. Sound deadener removed too. I think realisticly I can drop ~200LBS from the car with a race weight w/170lb driver around 2650LBS.

I'm open for suggestions, ideas, advice, comments, anything!

A few specific questions though.
1. Thoughts on Forged Pistons?
2. Are head gasket upgrades available?

Force Fed Mopar

11-06-2011, 12:01 PM

Stock rebuild and a Holset will probably get you what you want. Ondonti will be be in here before the end of the day, he has much experience with this :) However if you want to keep it together for several years, I would not run as much boost as he does. He tend to get carried away with it and blow stuff up lol. However he is daily'ing a turbo 3.0 Spirit right now I think.

Anyway, a stock 3.0 w/ a turbo, even a smaller turbo, I can't see why it wouldn't get you into the 13's cheaper and easier than any other method.

Sundance 6g72

11-06-2011, 12:10 PM

with the lsd he should be 13s no biggy with a cheep turbo. dr shred on the other site is pulling high 13s with his open diff and wide street tires and like 12psi through a ebay cx racing 63trim.. been doing it for 2 years now on stock internals.

Shadowv4l

11-06-2011, 04:00 PM

MC#4

11-06-2011, 04:18 PM

The nitrous is completely installed and works great in the car. I can't just take it out now, way to much time and money invested. Still the best bang for the buck in my opinion.

Yeah I know the TT stealths are ungodly heavy @ 3800+ because I have one, and so does my cousin. He's doing some work to his over winter and I just want to be damn sure I smoke his --- this spring!

P.S. I'm sure I could hit 13's with just a turbo or just a good shot of nos with some other minor mods and a good rebuild but I already have nos and I've been wanting to turbo this car for over a year. I don't really have an E.T. or horsepower goal. I just want to have fun with and see where it goes. If i crack 12's I won't be complaining :eyebrows:

I probably sound like a dumbass for building the shadow when I have a TT stealth, but I much prefer to smoke fools with my little "Green Machine".

Force Fed Mopar

11-06-2011, 04:43 PM

Well if you already have nitrous installed, I'd maybe go with a high compression build, use Diamante pistons (10:1) and cams, or custom cams. Going 10:1 makes it an interference engine but it will respond much better to the nitrous. What FD ratio is the trans, 3.50 or 3.77? (can't remember if all the V6 trannies were 3.77 or not)

I'm not sure how much of a shot the stock Diamante pistons will hold, but I'd think a properly set wet 100 or 150 shot would be okay.

Sundance 6g72

11-06-2011, 05:07 PM

I didn't think reliability and Nitrous went together and I think you should avoid it, to many variables and room for error. Besides couldn't you reach low 13's without it? A stealth is one hell of a fat car.

fat car with more traction and aftermarket support

8psi with lsd should walk that stealth as it sits and maybe get some slicks and 12psi through the right turbo and your good to go. My opinion on nos is that its cheater spray because its not ALWAYS there but it is cheep power.. winning is winning.

i think cams should be the number one thing right now though.. i just got back from some tuning. reving the motor to 6800rpms repeatedly, sounds good when the limiter starts kicking in but we make NO power up there. volumetric efficiency just drops off like a dead bird falling from the sky. valve springs and the big cams are the way to go even if staying with stock rpms (6200)

---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

brent ran 10:1 stock pistons for a little bit.. basically same deal as the stock pistons, avoid detonation and your fine. that being said, he ran e85 and meth i think.. or 92oc and meth. either way he used meth injection BUT this was with stock ecu with limited timing control. this setup made alot of power.

if you really want to shoot for 12s.. megasquirt makes not blowing up a whole lot easier. and it has support for nos control ;)

MC#4

11-06-2011, 05:51 PM

shadow88

11-06-2011, 07:04 PM

My vote goes to more nitrous. That with more compression (10.5:1) should get your goals of low 13's.

Sundance 6g72

11-06-2011, 07:11 PM

My car is 3.50 Final Drive.

Am I missing something because I don't see the point with different cams when Im rev limited at 5800rpms? I Will likely throw the manual ecu in the car to bump that up to 6000-6200 I forget which. Either way, I'm not convinced cams are going to make much difference. I've seen the Video on Ondonti's junkyard 11 second pass on stock heads/cams. Sure he was pushing crazy boost but still, It seems that cams are not the bottleneck. I Don't even want to rev higher than that, even if I did go MS. The reliability factor kicks in here. I want to drive this car to the track, make my passes and drive it home. That is very important to me.

I like that people are throwin out ideas. Keep em coming!
Also, just because I shoot an idea down now, doesn't mean I won't change my mind the next day.:thumb:

im on stock cams right now and with the stock limiter and my ability to push it further.. i still hate it.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253791_10150260606898899_534573898_8688963_8217905 _n.jpg

once my tq dips my hp falls off as well. no more power from those cams. I have the proper fuel and my datalogs tell me that im sucking in 99kpa all the way to redline (atmospheric here is 99-100kpa) so im not running out of air either. Its just crap headflow

all i have is 3inch exhaust and pretty much every intake mod you can do to the stock intake besides porting the lower intake. So my motor is very close to yours. When i shift at the 6200rpm readline i land around 4000rpms.. so i get to use about 200rpms of my power band and then lose power again and again. Ill get you a cam card later that the 12second tona used (non turbo, ran nos and stock limiter)

if i didnt have megadquirt i prolly would have gotten those cams already but i want to have something more creative (7200rpms, needs a bigger cam and valve springs which i cant do right now anyways)

more pics of my dyno results

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/248491_10150260606913899_534573898_8688964_5598697 _n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/248003_10150260606923899_534573898_8688965_1880202 _n.jpg

turbovanman²

11-06-2011, 07:15 PM

For ease of use, :nx: is the better and easier bang for the buck. Shelgame should be able to remove or alter the rev limiter. These engines are very good for RPM, 7K with a properly rebuilt engine shouldn't be an issue.

I can get cams made if your interested.

Turbo's are fun but without going standalone, you have to mickey duck it. We have some threads talking about the various ways to trick the stock computer. Shayne is building a turbo 3.0L, so maybe he will chime in as he's going all out.

Forged are a good idea, but costly, Shayne again just had Venolia's made, $900-$1000.

I'll tell him about this so he can chime in on cost.

Brent is currently running a stock 3.0L with a HE341, which are cheap and a good turbo for this engine.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?57088-The-Holset-he341-3.0L

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?61496-3.0L-AEM-FIC-Discussion

shayne

11-06-2011, 09:10 PM

yup my forged pistons are real nice, thanks to ordonti for the help with his numbers for when he had his made up. mine are stock cr (8.9:1) 1mm/~.040 over and the piston and wristpin combo are ~30 grams lighter than stock ones, which would be great for more rpms. and they were ~$780 usd, and the rest of the cost for me was shipping and duty at the canadian border, which brought the total to close to $1000. even though it wasnt cheap i am happy i will have them in my motor, i would more than happily recommend venolia to anyone.
also simons cam he sells, the "mid" performance range one is really close to the crower regrind used in rick loziers, now reapers, daytona. the cams will help but the heads are going to require a bit of work if you want to flow a bunch more, i.e. epoxy work on the short turn radius (because there isnt much of one stock) and raising and widening the port to accomodate lost port cross section. and the port taper needs help too as the heads im working on have very very little port taper stock which doesnt help velocity and general flow very much.... the list of things to do can be endless.. or you can do basic work on your car and actually drive and enjoy it!

Sundance 6g72

11-06-2011, 09:33 PM

Using a rising rate regulator isnt hard but megasquirt is still better bang for the buck considering everything you get out of it.

Ill spin my stock engine to 7k all day but again... We make no power up there. Valve float happens for me shortly after 7k though. Cams and stock limiter will do 12s... Just need alot of spray or a little boost and TRACTION

Ondonti

11-06-2011, 11:28 PM

I still have the 10:1 pistons in. With big ring gaps they were strong enough to bend the crankshaft, even chipped a corner off one of the skirts when it possibly made contact with something.

Nitrous should be all thats needed to run a low 13 if things are good and well. When I ran a high 13 my Daily driver Spirit on my ebay turbo setup, first pass with no tune, 5 pounds of boost, it was not making a lot of power.

A lot of people run very slow for the potential they have. I went 12's with a fancy motor and 11's on a stock motor. Sometimes you are just doing things wrong.

turbovanman²

11-07-2011, 12:03 AM

I went 12's with a fancy motor and 11's on a stock motor. Sometimes you are just doing things wrong.

Or you learn, nothing wrong with that.

Sundance 6g72

11-07-2011, 12:04 AM

learn that there is no need for fancy pistons http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/runaway.gif

Vigo

11-07-2011, 01:15 AM

This thread is already superior to the one on TD... Glad to see you posted here, MC!

turbovanman²

11-07-2011, 02:12 AM

learn that there is no need for fancy pistons http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/runaway.gif

I disagree, especially if he's going to run alot of :nx:

Forged pistons are cheap insurance when/if something goes wrong.

Force Fed Mopar

11-07-2011, 08:50 AM

I dunno, 1000 dollars could probably rebuild a stock 3.0 twice :)

87turbodance

11-07-2011, 09:54 AM

My next motor (if I build one) will have 10:1 pistons from RockAuto, heads ported by Ed, Crower re-grinds, solid rockers, stiffer springs with light weight retainers and Ed's turbo manifold setup with a low pressure turbo.

If you already have the Nx then I'd pair the Nx with a copy of Reaper's cams and some modified Grand Prix headers and upgraded exhaust. If you're willing to go with something like MS for the engine controller, then I'd get ED to do your heads, get some even larger cams and with the power band moved a little higher. MS has some handy features for Nx control too.

Sundance 6g72

11-07-2011, 12:23 PM

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/320687_10150445727373899_534573898_10179981_123730 3628_n.jpg

Vigo

11-07-2011, 12:50 PM

you have a progressive controller or something?

MC#4

11-07-2011, 12:54 PM

I can only assume that is a screenshot from MS showing the virtues of its Nitrous control capabilities.

I do not currently have any type of controller. I just flip the arming switch when I hit 2nd gear.

Sundance 6g72

11-07-2011, 01:15 PM

thats megasquirt II's nos control. i think as long as you have a solenoid or something for the nos setup, megasquirt can trigger a relay that would turn the nos on.

MS3 might have more settings. i looked around at an ms3 tune and there is just SOOO much more.

c2xejk

11-07-2011, 01:34 PM

These engines are very good for RPM, 7K with a properly rebuilt engine shouldn't be an issue.

:confused: Sundance and I rev'd the engine in my Shadow to 7500 RPM at Drag Week. The bottom end has 250k miles. The top end does have 3.3L springs and LS1 retainers... I will likely rebuild the bottom end when I go to +3 valves this winter.

Ed

turbovanman²

11-07-2011, 02:02 PM

I dunno, 1000 dollars could probably rebuild a stock 3.0 twice :)

I get tired of fixing stuff so its cheap insurance, lol.

---------- Post added at 10:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

:confused: Sundance and I rev'd the engine in my Shadow to 7500 RPM at Drag Week. The bottom end has 250k miles. The top end does have 3.3L springs and LS1 retainers... I will likely rebuild the bottom end when I go to +3 valves this winter.

Ed

Why are you confused, I am saying its a good revving engine? :confused:

Force Fed Mopar

11-07-2011, 02:26 PM

I think he was wondering why you said rebuilt lol.

Ondonti

11-07-2011, 04:07 PM

Matt Monett took oem 8:1 turbo piston rod combo's of questionable quality off his shop flooor, put them in a block. Ran the first 9 second pass for a 3/S car, and was sitting over 9500 rpms at the top of 3rd gear through the traps @ 151mph. We have the same rods. He spun a bearing later on but the rod never failed.

Loziers Daytona went high 12's with a lot of weight and auto trans on spray. We think of his motor being highly built but I think its fairly tame as far as actual power gains go. It probably just had a good tune. Sunmind recently built his 12 valve, high dollar internals but the only crazy thing was 11+ compression ratio. He made 220whp with a stage 2 RPW cam which fell off before 7k. His heads were ported professionally but I don't know how much that helped. He had oem size ferreas.
For a big spray, I would want a progressive nitrous controller. I like megasquirts capabilities to change fueling but I like progressive spray. When you are on slicks, you can spray in first gear too :) Progressive spray in 1st gear on slicks would probably be a really good thing.

turbovanman²

11-07-2011, 05:36 PM

Nice, 12's on the auto, 3 or 4 speed?

I think he was wondering why you said rebuilt lol.

Ahh. Well sometimes you never know what you have, lol.

Sundance 6g72

11-07-2011, 07:02 PM

Yeah we reved that thing to 7500rpms so many times

Force Fed Mopar

11-07-2011, 07:37 PM

Nice, 12's on the auto, 3 or 4 speed?

Ahh. Well sometimes you never know what you have, lol.

You are right about that lol.

I think Lozier's car was running a 604 4-spd. Not sure though. PM Reaper1, he owns it now.

turbovanman²

11-07-2011, 07:54 PM

I think Lozier's car was running a 604 4-spd. Not sure though. PM Reaper1, he owns it now.

That rings a bell. Glad the auto seemed to hold.

shayne

11-07-2011, 09:44 PM

if one wants to build a budget motor, than build one with more affordable pistons. im not building a budget motor. how fast can you afford to go? people all the time use cheap parts to go fast but how often do those same people do it consistently and reliably without any hiccups or dreaded grenading that takes out a bunch of components. personally i have been looking at what i will be paying myself for my motor rebuild, and it is still cheaper for me to do it once (with forged) than to do it twice with cast. and thats with me still doing the majority of the prep work and then the final assembly. so..

MC#4

11-07-2011, 09:47 PM

Very well said Shayne, I agree 100%.

shayne

11-07-2011, 09:51 PM

you should build your car how you want to and enjoy it to the max, i wish i could have driven mine a bunch more before being forced to make these purchases to get it done. i only got two weeks out of it before it died!! there is nothing wrong with building in steps either, like spend the $$ after the motor gets nuked from abuse, kinda modify as you need and as you can afford, thats what hot rodding used to be.

turbovanman²

11-08-2011, 01:57 AM

there is nothing wrong with building in steps either, like spend the $$ after the motor gets nuked from abuse, kinda modify as you need and as you can afford, thats what hot rodding used to be.

Yep, :nod:

MC#4

11-08-2011, 09:39 AM

Well, I am sloooowly starting to gather things for this upcoming rebuild. I am currently looking for a torque plate for this motor. After a 2 hour search last night, I think my only choice is to have one made at a machine shop. The only new one I could find is $500+ and that is not happening. One guy on 3si had one made a few years ago but he's in austrailia and even if I could convince him to lend it out, shipping would kill that idea. Anybody have any info on a cheaper torque plate?

I'm not looking for an arguement about how torque plates are useless or Ill never make enough power to notice a difference. I'm a firm believer in them and one way or another Ill get my hands on one.

Force Fed Mopar

11-08-2011, 09:51 AM

How much did it cost that other guy to make one? Might be better off just buying the 500 dollar one. A DOHC engine should use the same plate.

MC#4

11-08-2011, 09:56 AM

bakes

11-08-2011, 11:03 AM

I dunno, 1000 dollars could probably rebuild a stock 3.0 twice :)

I kind disagree here , because the chances of popping a piston here are going to take out the motor. I believe in the do it right pay less later.

turbovanman²

11-08-2011, 01:58 PM

Im pretty sure It cost him $500-$600 to have one made. I have had things cut on CNC before and the price was always reasonable. Its just a piece of aluminum with some holes cut, very simple design really.

Shouldn't it be made of steel?

I kind disagree here , because the chances of popping a piston here are going to take out the motor. I believe in the do it right pay less later.

4 bangers are a sorta ok to redo, can't imagine doing a 3.0L over and over and over again, :banghead: :lol:

MC#4

11-08-2011, 02:18 PM

Shouldn't it be made of steel?

We have aluminum heads, so the plate should be aluminum. If we had iron heads then you would want an iron plate.

turbovanman²

11-08-2011, 02:20 PM

We have aluminum heads, so the plate should be aluminum. If we had iron heads then you would want an iron plate.

Ok, I just figured they'd use steel on everything, lol.

Ondonti

11-09-2011, 06:29 AM

My current problems have been using some 190,000 mile used heads on a race car then putting them on my daily and hoping for the best with no reconditioning. I had no money when I made those decisions. Now I have no time to make up for decisions I had with more time and no money. I think I would rather have a happy cylinder head then worry about pistons. I am not very scared of breaking pistons with the proper gap and with the Chrome ring upgrade I am not worried about the upper rings relaxing or whatever else scares Ed about stock rings. Yes forged pistons can take a beating in a 3.0, but can also avoid making obvious mistakes. Forged pistons are expensive and I don't think are necessary for the requirements we are talking about. Invest in setting up your oem rering or new Oem style pistons well and it will benefit you. I think i prefer the 10:1 pistons because they have proven themselves crazy strong with regapped rings. I have not actually beaten to crap these 8.9 regapped pistons because...I don't want to find out what breaks first on my daily. I have done a lot of break it research and its not fun on your driver. I do know you can go very fast on a bone stock shortblock and changing the ring gaps would increase reliability a lot.

I don't believe in torque plates for a 6g7x but there is a shop near Seattle that has one from what I have researched. Aluminum would make sense but not everyone does things right the right way.

c2xejk

11-09-2011, 12:56 PM

The issue is heat destroying the temper in the stock rings... For mild boost, this is probably not an issue.

On the torque plate. I think it is probably "helpful", but not like it is for certain older engines. Somewhere I saw a picture of an engine where you could see the outline of some of the head bolts in the cylinder wall after usage... That is a case where there was definitely cylinder wall distortion when the head was bolted on...

Now if you want to get real exact, you need to get the block up to operating temperature when the honing is done!

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

Murphy

11-09-2011, 01:14 PM

cams certainly make a huge difference. I have the diamante cams and they are a big upgrade over stock. They move the powerband up so power increases up top instead of the down low torque hump and then blah power up top. I'm in a heavy full weight spirit and I've run a 15.0@91 N/A with only bolt ons, no porting. I have a 50 shot on the car and did a best of 14.5@96 with that.

this is a good build to check out by Josh Simon RIP. 93 sundance, gutted, all N/A ran a best of 14.2@97 with no traction. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/693477/1993-plymouth-sundance

MC#4

11-09-2011, 06:06 PM

Well in light of all the posts here and some thinking. I have decided to scrap the turbo idea for now. I have decided that driveability and reliability outwiegh the benefits of a turbo for now. I realized that I much prefer to actually drive the car instead of it being down all the time. My stealth has been down about 6 of the 7 weeks Ive owned it and Im to the point that I hate looking at that car. A turbo is still a good possibility in the future when I get the need for speed.

The good news is I have a much more realistic and more attainable goal. Eaiser on the wallet too!

Here's a rough outline of my new plans.

Engine

Still getting a full rebuild, balanced and blueprinted, file fit rings.
10:1 pistons (cast)
5 angle valve job
Cam regrinds (maybe using the cam card from rick loziers/reaper1's daytona)
MLS headgasket
75-100hp shot of Nitrous
Mild port and polish on heads
Ported intake upper and lower
58mm throttle body ported (have this not installed yet)
Custom tube headers, custom 3" after headers.
CAI (have this not installed yet)
MSD coil and wires

Also still planning on an LSD

Here's a few questions.

1. Will headgaskets for a DOHC work? like stealth/3000gt?
2. Recommendations on piston rings? I have read gap should be bigger with nitrous.
3. Any valvetrain changes with new cams? Thoughts on just going w/diamante cams?
4. How to remove rev and speed limiter from stock ECU?

Let me know what you guys think. Your posts definately have an influence. Thanks for the help so far. Much better than another site I used to frequent.:clap:

Sundance 6g72

11-09-2011, 06:14 PM

last i checked dohc headgaskets worked. i just got the mls felpro headgaskets from autozone. they look legit but i have yet to use them.. i just ordered them for a sohc 12valve motor though.

brent likes to do something with the ringgapes to improve reliability.. i havnt paid much attention to that yet though :P

i would get these valve springs while you have the heads torn apart http://schneidercams.com/6610valvespringset.aspx

hopefully that link works, verify with ED before you order those. im 99% sure those are the springs he recommended to me. or you could go with 3.3 dodge minivan valve springs with lightweight ls1 locks/retainers. either of those should rev higher than you need too

turbovanman²

11-09-2011, 10:30 PM

Contact "shelgame" about the rev llmiter, he'll tell you straight up if he can do it or not.

I wouldn't go 3" exhaust n/a, keep it 2.5" engine back.

MC#4

11-09-2011, 10:46 PM

yeah Ive been pming shelgame back and forth for about an hour. He's up for it.

As for the 3", I do plan to turbo this car down the road and it'd be nice to be able to reuse most of the exhaust.

Sundance 6g72

11-10-2011, 12:39 AM

Contact "shelgame" about the rev llmiter, he'll tell you straight up if he can do it or not.

I wouldn't go 3" exhaust n/a, keep it 2.5" engine back.

why no 3inch? i made plenty of power with mine on stock cam and limiter. I was thinking about this earlier though... when exactly does a 2.5inch exhaust become a restriction on a 3.0? the 3inch works but does a 2.5 work slightly better and why?

upping the limiter and running a bigger cam down the road will require a bigger exhaust by default though

Murphy

11-10-2011, 12:45 AM

IIRC....
Josh had a completely stock 3.0 604 spirit at the track. He did add a 52mm TB. he did a couple passes then cut the exhaust off, there was no difference in time

Sundance 6g72

11-10-2011, 01:16 AM

not saying your wrong, but did i really make 147hp to the wheels (141 crank hp when stock !) with just intake mods? im sure i needed the 3inch to help with that. i wish i had the time to test each mod though

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253791_10150260606898899_534573898_8688963_8217905 _n.jpg

if you loose tq with the 3inch, its not much.

turbovanman²

11-10-2011, 01:52 AM

yeah Ive been pming shelgame back and forth for about an hour. He's up for it.

As for the 3", I do plan to turbo this car down the road and it'd be nice to be able to reuse most of the exhaust.

That's awesome and good idea, no point spending money twice.

why no 3inch? i made plenty of power with mine on stock cam and limiter. I was thinking about this earlier though... when exactly does a 2.5inch exhaust become a restriction on a 3.0? the 3inch works but does a 2.5 work slightly better and why?

upping the limiter and running a bigger cam down the road will require a bigger exhaust by default though

You get to a certain point where if the exhaust is too big, you'll lose down low torque, which for a street driver, can be a big deal. Usually a 2.5 inch system is more than adequate for most engines.

I guess testing here would be key, but who wants to put a 2.5 inch system on, then try a 3.0 inch system, :eyebrows:

bakes

11-10-2011, 02:02 AM

Dont be scared to put 150 shot on this motor in N/a form i have heard of a 250 shot run on a N/a 3.0l before .

Sundance 6g72

11-10-2011, 09:14 AM

That's awesome and good idea, no point spending money twice.

You get to a certain point where if the exhaust is too big, you'll lose down low torque, which for a street driver, can be a big deal. Usually a 2.5 inch system is more than adequate for most engines.

I guess testing here would be key, but who wants to put a 2.5 inch system on, then try a 3.0 inch system, :eyebrows:

i think the reason why 3inch dosnt effect low end noticeably is due to the stock manifolds. Ed replaced the front manifold with a custom header and had to add a crazy amount of fuel DOWN LOW to get back to his desired afr.

c2xejk

11-10-2011, 02:00 PM

Yes the Schneider 6610 are a "drop in" replacement valve spring.

If you are going to turbo, it is a good idea to open up the gap on the rings. The concern is that the increased heat from the turbo will cause the rings to grow larger and the ends butt and they start distorting and break a ring land. That said, I ran 8psi on a pretty much stock junkyard motor (ie. stock gapped piston rings) and did not have a problem. When I rebuilt the motor (spun bearings) and went to ported heads I did increase the ring gap...

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

Sundance 6g72

11-10-2011, 06:37 PM

And the reason you spun a bearing was due to booat kickin in way to early with to little oil pressure, right?

c2xejk

11-10-2011, 07:11 PM

And the reason you spun a bearing was due to booat kickin in way to early with to little oil pressure, right?

Yes. Too small of a turbine combined with too big of a compressor wheel lead to boost very early in the rpm band.

turbovanman²

11-10-2011, 07:30 PM

Yes. Too small of a turbine combined with too big of a compressor wheel lead to boost very early in the rpm band.

I find that hard to believe, many engines out there make boost off idle with no issues. Why do you think this? Didn't you say it had 250K on the engine?

Sundance 6g72

11-10-2011, 07:32 PM

c2xejk

11-10-2011, 07:51 PM

The turbo setup has less miles on it. Not sure how many, but ~120K at the time.

I was getting 8-9psi boost by 1800 RPM!

turbovanman²

11-10-2011, 07:54 PM

it sort of makes sense. stock these cars put down 170tq to the crank, with 8psi around 2500rpms or earlier you nearly double that. with the same oil pressure.

i know his NA shadow has 250k.. i dont think the RT had that much though.

8 psi at 2500? That's not right. Spec is 35-100 psi at 3000 rpm. I'd say if you have 8 psi at 2500 rpm, something is wrong and no wonder it blew up.

Edit, talking boost or oil pressure, lol.

We also can make power and torque down low and don't blow stuff, :eyebrows:

Force Fed Mopar

11-10-2011, 07:55 PM

8 psi at 2500? That's not right. Spec is 35-100 psi at 3000 rpm. I'd say if you have 8 psi at 2500 rpm, something is wrong and no wonder it blew up.

He's talking about the boost, Simon, not the oil pressure... lol

turbovanman²

11-10-2011, 08:15 PM

He's talking about the boost, Simon, not the oil pressure... lol

Yeah, wasn't sure at first, lol.

Sundance 6g72

11-10-2011, 10:05 PM

like ed said, we are talking over 300tq at less than 2000rpms.

i guess my main reason for bringing that up was to show that he only spun a bearing due to ill choices for this turbo and that the 3.0 dosnt normal spin a bearing just because its boosted.

Vigo

11-11-2011, 11:00 PM

Sounds like a wild guess to me, honestly. Did daytonastein spin a bearing? I bet that thing spooled at 1100 rpm.

Sundance 6g72

11-12-2011, 01:52 AM

Yeah thats the car we were talkin about

c2xejk

11-12-2011, 09:16 AM

Sounds like a wild guess to me, honestly. Did daytonastein spin a bearing? I bet that thing spooled at 1100 rpm.
Spun two rod bearings. One was repairable, the other one I had to replace the rod. Boost came on VERY quickly. The new setup has a lot more lag (full boost comes on at about 3.5K.)

Vigo

11-12-2011, 11:48 AM

Oh, i thought you were talking about your spirit.

Sundance 6g72

11-12-2011, 12:02 PM

nono we are talking about the spirit. the spirit RT = daytonastein but when it spun the bearings it was in the spirit

c2xejk

11-12-2011, 04:35 PM

After the bearings spun I rebuilt the motor and put it into the Spirit...

Sundance 6g72

11-12-2011, 04:57 PM

oo well idk what im talking about

Vigo

11-12-2011, 09:26 PM

Ive got it straight now, thanks.

Ondonti

11-13-2011, 10:02 PM

I only noticed a difference in exhaust when I was auto. It lost a little grunt at just above 1000 rpms. Manual trans you just can't tell. That was 3" or cut off etc. I don't believe that statement about Josh cutting off his exhaust. He did that it was because of me and when I did it I went from 82mph to 88mph along with porting the plenum, 58mm tb, and new wires. There are a lot of variables that get in the way of interpreting any results as actual facts. change more then one thing and its hard to see what made a difference, but often one mod needs another mod to truely be potent. Built a nasty motor with stock exhaust and you will see my point.

Mike built a custom manifold that had primaries that were too large and it lost no torque compared to an OEM log on the DYNO (not the guestimator). That was with a big exhaust. Cams are so tiny that exhaust changes do not change anything noticeable in the power band you actually drive at. Even though I like to lug at 1000 rpms its not supposed to be good thanks to oil pressure being low at 1000 rpms....Still plenty of git.

I ran a 3" on my 3.0 for 8 years and almost all of that time on my daily was without a turbo. I always lug the motor around and at any sort of "racing" rpm, I want every bit of huge exhaust I can get since I was always running a tiny oem cam. 2.2/2.5 guys have also often commented that the noise from a 2.5" seems to be harsher or more droning then a 3" (when using fairly standard parts between the same cars).

My Duster is crazy insane loud right now with catless 3" and oldschool ultraflow that was on my Spirit until a few years ago. Almost seems like the exhaust note is changed by the bulk of the chassis, that or the MS just runs harsher.

Sundance 6g72

11-13-2011, 11:52 PM

stock pipe with no muffler (still with cat) drones at 35mph in 5th an insane amount. my 3inch sounds nice at the same speed in 5th.. only at 70mph does it give me an annoying drone.. hit 82mph ish and it goes away. you guys might no what i mean, when you go wide open from a dig.. there is that slight change in exhaust note as you get up there in the Rs.. not just louder but it completely changes. maybe its just me.

i wish i was awesome and had the time to take all of my mods and remove/ add them to see what works and what needs what to work (like 3inch exhaust and stock intake or both and vice versa)

Ondonti

11-14-2011, 12:18 AM

Yes, I think the drone is RPM based. 2000-2600 and it sucks. The higher you go, the smoother it gets. 2800 an its quiet but you are going to jail soon. I believe 3000 rpms is like a whisper.
Having a turbo kills more sound and drone then a CAT. My 3.0T daily does not drone like it always did before. You don't have to yell to talk or crank the tunes extra loud. Back seat + the sound deadening behind on an AA body also kills a lot of drone. Try removing it and doing the same long drive.

bond_bbs

11-14-2011, 01:26 PM

It sounds like the exhaust system could use a resonator instead of a muffler.

MC#4

11-14-2011, 02:06 PM

Sundance 6g72

11-14-2011, 02:53 PM

is it all stainless steel? nothing like the sexi look of tig weld on SS headers.

It sounds like the exhaust system could use a resonator instead of a muffler.

exactly. thats all my magnaflow is anyways and i have it sitting in place of the cat. thinking of a second one in the muffler location. hard to shell out $100 for a second straight muffler. the new dyno max ones look nice though (stay closed and then wide open when you go.. well wide open)

MC#4

11-14-2011, 04:03 PM

Damn I wish I could afford stainless! Nope its gonna be all 16ga. Mild steel. I've crunched the numbers and I'm lookin at about $400 in materials. This ---- adds up real quick. That's with me doing 99% of the work myself. Our shop has a damn nice millermatic MIG setup I'll be using. TIG is unheard of around this po'dunk little town. I considered stainless until I looked at the prices, about 3x per foot + I'd need stainless wire and different shielding gas.

Any thoughts on necking down the tailpipe at the back of the car and reusing the factory muffler? (yes I know Im cheap!) I want this to be a drivable sleeper and I think that will give it to me. V6's sound like --- most of the time anyway to me.

bond_bbs

11-14-2011, 04:11 PM

is it all stainless steel? nothing like the sexi look of tig weld on SS headers.

exactly. thats all my magnaflow is anyways and i have it sitting in place of the cat. thinking of a second one in the muffler location. hard to shell out $100 for a second straight muffler. the new dyno max ones look nice though (stay closed and then wide open when you go.. well wide open)

I love the look of custom built headers that have been cleaned and chromed. Also - the chrome does a very good job of showing the heat dispersion very well.

As for the open/close mufflers, I think I would prefer to have a dump solenoid. Run your exhaust normally, and get one of those 3" exhaust dump valves, get an old electric door lock solenoid on, and wire a microswitch triggered at WOT off the throttlebody or an output trigger from MS. Maybe wire in a toggle switch override so you can select Forced Open / System Controlled / Forced Closed.

MC#4

11-14-2011, 05:14 PM

I like the idea of an exhaust cutout alot but this car has to be PA inspectable and they aren't allowed here :(. I also decided to put a cat shell in there as well. Doesn't need to function but it has to be there for visual emissions check. Im actually making my own cat shell right now.

turbovanman²

11-14-2011, 05:41 PM

I ordered almost everything I'll need for my headers and exhaust today. 1.5" primaries, Then 2 1/8" into a 3" collector and then 3" all the way back. Materials cost more than I thought but I guess I don't have much of a choice since we have no aftermarket support. Oh well at least Ill have what I want.

Did you check out Ed for headers? He makes them but they might not be what you want or too much money.

I like the idea of an exhaust cutout alot but this car has to be PA inspectable and they aren't allowed here :(. I also decided to put a cat shell in there as well. Doesn't need to function but it has to be there for visual emissions check. Im actually making my own cat shell right now.

I see no issues with a stock muffler, thinking the same thing, lol, but what about a test pipe you can take out after inspections, and the new test pipe has the cut out?

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

like ed said, we are talking over 300tq at less than 2000rpms.

i guess my main reason for bringing that up was to show that he only spun a bearing due to ill choices for this turbo and that the 3.0 dosnt normal spin a bearing just because its boosted.

I don't believe it, many engines out there build stupid torque above idle with no issues, I think he had bad luck.

MC#4

11-14-2011, 05:49 PM

Did you check out Ed for headers? He makes them but they might not be what you want or too much money.

I see no issues with a stock muffler, thinking the same thing, lol, but what about a test pipe you can take out after inspections, and the new test pipe has the cut out?

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

I've been using ed's site as a reference. When It comes right down to it, I actually want to build these myself, I just like the sense of accomplishment sometimes.

I really like your idea about the "test pipe"! That is definately under serious consideration. Thanks.

turbovanman²

11-14-2011, 06:15 PM

Gotcha, sometimes you gotta make it yourself, :nod:

Sundance 6g72

11-14-2011, 09:28 PM

turbovanman²

11-15-2011, 12:29 AM

good idea on the test pipe with the cutout

make an exuast where the cat is easily bolted on and off and swappable for a pipe with the cutout. Maybe run a 3inch downpipe to the cat and the have the test pipe made out of 3inch

only issue on the cutout is that i hear they take a few seconds to open up.. so if its wired to the throttle it might lag a little

dynomax has a new line of mufflers that are supposed to be realllllly quiete until you go wide open. they have a valve in them or something

If your racing, then it taking a few secs doesn't matter and if your street racing, it will draw attention. I manually open and close mine, its fun, lol.

I tried their new muffler, it worked but still droned for me, so for you guys, it might be ok. Worth a try, they had a money back guarantee on it.

Sundance 6g72

11-15-2011, 09:34 AM

money guarantee after i weld it to my exhaust? Naw I like mine but just too loud for some people.. a second magnaflow should do it.

i love the idea of a cutout though

turbovanman²

11-16-2011, 02:37 AM

money guarantee after i weld it to my exhaust? Naw I like mine but just too loud for some people.. a second magnaflow should do it.

i love the idea of a cutout though

Yep, even if you weld it. I run 2 mufflers, still drones right at 60-70 mph, sigh. I now run a Flowmaster 70 series big block and another Magnaflow, flows nicely and isn't too loud, going to put a bullet cat in and that should be enough. Now I have a cutout, I don't care about plugging up my exhaust. Still considering a stock muffler, lol.

bond_bbs

11-16-2011, 02:25 PM

only issue on the cutout is that i hear they take a few seconds to open up.. so if its wired to the throttle it might lag a little

That's why I would build in an override. The WOT trigger is nice for those quick highway blasts, and light to light racing.

But honestly - if you're worried about it taking a few seconds, get a manual / cable operated cutout and rig up your own solenoid to it. The reasons I say to use an old power door lock solenoid are:
1. They're very simple and easy to wire up.
2. They're usually pretty weather resistant, as they're inside a door which gets wet, cold and dampness.
3. You can find them in a million junk yards everywhere for dirty cheap.
4. They move seriously fast in comparison to a stepper motor system which is what it seems the cutout kits use.

MC#4

11-22-2011, 06:00 PM

Got about everything I need for my exhaust today! Machine shop has a headgasket for a template and is making me up a torque plate and shel-game has my ecu and is removing my rev and speed limiters. This project is slowly coming together.

turbovanman²

11-22-2011, 08:50 PM

Very cool.

Sundance 6g72

11-23-2011, 12:20 PM

while he has your ecu, you might consider having him fix the timing. last i checked, he said the stock ecu has a timing "dip" or something like that. if your naturally aspirated, it dosnt hurt to run 2-3 more degrees on the stock ecu. its proven to make power.

those steel pipes look nice too

Ondonti

11-24-2011, 05:54 AM

columbia river flanges?

MC#4

11-24-2011, 09:37 AM

columbia river flanges? Yep,everything in that pic is from columbia river. There's another company in canadia makin em for like $36pair. When I went to buy them their site was actin up + I'm sure shipping would have been pretty high. Columbia river gets $30ea. 3/8" thick.

As far as moving timing goes. I can't advance it since I'll be running about a 100hp shot of nitrous. I've always read that you should retard stock timing 2-3degrees on nos, so I figure I'll just leave it stock and let the nitrous make up the difference.

Sundance 6g72

11-24-2011, 12:27 PM

oo yep i remember now..

MC#4

12-13-2011, 07:54 PM

Just a quick update. I haven't done much of anything to my shadow lately. I'm too busy dumping bucket loads of money into my stealth. I'm still not sure exactly what I want to do with the shadow and now it looks like I won't be tearing it down until the new year. I just have other stuff that needs done first + I'm damn near broke :mad:.

Anyway, I did get my torque plate from the machine shop today. It looks like it will work, I just need to make up some 3/4" spacers for under all the bolts so they tighten down properly. The motor in the pic is just a mock up motor out of a 99 caravan.

36114

Sundance 6g72

12-13-2011, 10:20 PM

wow, looks really nice!

Vigo

12-14-2011, 05:53 PM

I'm damn near broke .

That's what TT 3si are for.

I want a sohc one. :)

Ondonti

12-16-2011, 07:20 AM

How much did they run you for that plate? I think a lot of people bore too large to use that.

MC#4

12-16-2011, 09:28 AM

The plate was $200 which is alot easier to swallow compared to about $500 to buy a premade one.

As far as boring size, it ended up being a compromise between my useability and versatility. The holes are about 3.670 or about .080 over. If the holes are too big it doesn't compress the firering on a stock gasket correctly and kinda defeats the purpose. The plate was made to be effective for stock-.060 over which is the range I intend to use it in.

Of course none of this really matters since my project is stalled for a while. I hate to say it but I might not be able to do much until I sell my bike this spring.:(

Ondonti

12-16-2011, 04:57 PM

But you have some sweet aluminum hanging around :P

MC#4

01-11-2012, 04:34 PM

Well I got my ECU back from Shel-game. Just curious, are there any other socketed 3.0 ecu's out there?

36633
After a series of emails I decided to go with a 7k rev limiter and an absurdly high speed limiter. (255mph) He says that the ECU will run the same map at 7k as it does at 6k but the factory map is very conservative at 6k. My big plan was to run the cams that were in rick lozier's daytona but looks like I'll be stuck with stock for a while due to money issues. The only things I gained is I "might" be able to go through the traps in high 3rd gear instead of shifting into 4th right before the finish line and maybe now my cousins TT stealth won't pull quite as many bus lengths on the highway as I stayed back bouncing off my stupid 118mph speed limiter.

I pulled my car into the garage today ready to pull the heads, and replace all the gaskets. I stopped at the local dodge dealer and they wanted $75ea. for head gaskets! I ordered a full fel-pro set on ebay for $77shipped. I would have much rather stayed oem but I'm not making serious power anyway. I'll be dropping the heads off at the machine shop to get them checked for cracks, warpage and probably new valve seals. Looks like This car may end up a driver/weekend racer for a while. I really wanted it to be a more dedicated race/cruise type of car but so it goes.

36634

Here it is ready to go. I just need to find some motivation, I'm sure I left it around here somewhere.....
Note: I have the airbox off to start tearing down, I was running with it all hooked up. The thing on the driver's side strut tower is my line lock.

Vigo

01-11-2012, 06:50 PM

Riding 3rd gear through the traps should get you a little ET. I know on my dynasty 3rd hits 5800 limiter around 85-87 on stock speedo (who knows how far off that is) but i expect it to trap around there so i would probably be losing out on something in the last second of the run whether i rode the limiter or shifted.

Sundance 6g72

01-11-2012, 07:20 PM

best oem headgasket would be the one bought from Mitsubishi for a twin turbo stealth/3000

i would be concerned about the tune above 6000rpms. rick's cam is good for the stock power band, not sure about after 6000rpms though. even then.. its going to lean out i would guesssss if the cam still flowed up there. did he do anything to your timing?

turbovanman²

01-11-2012, 07:26 PM

I would have put the rev limiter as high as possible, then you can use your right foot as needed, :nod:

MC#4

01-11-2012, 07:28 PM

Yeah I would have liked to stay oem, I just need to get this car running right now. I'm moving soon and also out of a job. I have kind of a unique situation as far as maps go. I have some control over rich/lean with my nitrous jets so If it happens to go lean after 6k, I'll bump up to the next size fuel jet. I don't plan on hitting 7k on the street anyway so the only time I'll see those kind of rpm's will be at the track w/nitrous. I have a wideband and I'll be sure to report the results when I get it running.

I didn't have him change anything with the timing. I'll be honest, I didn't want to induce any more unknown variables just yet and like I said I really need the car running and its the only ecu I've got so I needed to get it back from him asap.

Sundance 6g72

01-11-2012, 09:15 PM

you can always run a piggy back for cheep. the s-afc can be had for cheep i think if you look on 3s and dsm tuners.. that is if it ends up being a problem. If you dont have the cams yet.. i would try and get one that will make power to the 7000rpm and then fine tune with the s-afc or some other piggy back if need be.. but no job probably means halt on car stuff. i know how that goes :(

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

I would have put the rev limiter as high as possible, then you can use your right foot as needed, :nod:

but then you cant ride the limiter like a ricer! :D

turbovanman²

01-12-2012, 02:33 AM

but then you cant ride the limiter like a ricer! :D

True, sort of, lol. My old Quad 4 would tag the 6800 limiter with ease after I modded it, was bloody annoying, it was just coming alive then BANG, 2nd gear was the worst, :(

Ondonti

01-12-2012, 06:03 AM

Its nice having a rev limiter when you have traction problems. Terrible idea to go without one. A camshaft would help the tune above 6000 rpms.

I would have just bought 2 new felpro headgaskets and reused your stock headbolts. I don't know anything about the quality of Felpro bolts for our motor and how they compare with OEM.

MC#4

01-12-2012, 11:18 AM

When I said complete kit, I meant a complete gasket kit, Includes head gaskets, intake gaskets, valve seas, exhaust gaskets. Basically every gasket for the top end. I will be reusing stock head bolts, Even if they came in the kit I wouldn't use crap aftermarket bolts.

I'm glad I kept the rev limiter. When I was testing my nitrous on the street, I launched and spun like CRAZY and the nitrous blew right by the 5800 rev limiter since it has its own fuel supply. Factory tach went up to about 6800 before I could let up.

Sundance 6g72

01-12-2012, 12:35 PM

Haha damn

I used the felpro top end set too. Havnt had a problem

Ondonti

01-13-2012, 05:56 AM

Definitely not a bad price when you want to replace everything. Each one of those gaskets is about 20 bucks so you get one thing about free

c2xejk

01-13-2012, 01:28 PM

I'm glad I kept the rev limiter. When I was testing my nitrous on the street, I launched and spun like CRAZY and the nitrous blew right by the 5800 rev limiter since it has its own fuel supply. Factory tach went up to about 6800 before I could let up.

Several people (myself included) have reved the stock bottom end to 7500 without a problem. So 7000 should be safe.

Sundance 6g72

01-13-2012, 03:01 PM

the valve springs might not be happy at that rpm though (if they are still stock). i think i *heard* valve float at like 7200rpms on stock everything.. i set my limiter to around 6500 these days but thats still to high for my cam.

Ondonti

01-14-2012, 03:50 AM

Yup, valvetrain is the limit, not the bottom end.

MC#4

01-18-2012, 10:49 PM

I've got a few things done in the past week or so.
36840368413684236843

I'm feeling pretty confident that my heads are going to be ok after all. Looks like the head gasket just failed from age. The gasket material around the firering is deteriorated. I've got both heads off the car and taking them to the machine shop this week for cleaning and pressure testing. I'm also in the process of deleting A/C for weight and more underhood room. I really miss driving this car. It's been down for 2 1/2 months.:(

ShelGame

01-18-2012, 10:58 PM

RoadWarrior222

01-19-2012, 12:51 PM

Ahhh fresh challenges :D

turbovanman²

01-19-2012, 02:01 PM

I'd keep the a/c but that's just me, :eyebrows:

MC#4

01-19-2012, 08:53 PM

Got my heads ported today. I didn't get real crazy with them, I hit em with a carbide cutter and then 60/120 dremel sanding bands. I just did the intake side. Probably have 6-7 hours in the pair. As long as the machine shop doesn't find any cracks they'll be good to go.:nod:

http://i43.tinypic.com/vhqj3a.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2dqjccx.jpg

Sundance 6g72

01-19-2012, 10:58 PM

nice. would be cool to see flow numbers for before and after.. i know porting shouldnt just be DONE but im about to do it to my spare set as well. DGAF additude

MC#4

01-20-2012, 12:02 AM

Flow numbers would be interesting. I wouldn't know how to use/read a flowbench if I had one though! I'm more interested in 1/4 mile times.:eyebrows: I did alot of reading before I started, but in the end I just went into it with the attitude of "Think Smooooth" if that makes any sense.

turbovanman²

01-20-2012, 02:09 AM

Looks good.

Whats the exhaust look like?

RoadWarrior222

01-20-2012, 07:32 AM

Yeah, you can think like an air molecule and figure "What am I gonna slam into first?" .... or imagine it's like a stadium or arena exit that a crowd is rushing out of and figure the bits that you don't want to touch, like door posts you might get slammed into, or dead space you might get trapped in etc.

However, you should also consider "total path" meaning, where is the air coming from, what direction it is heading when it enters the port from the lower intake and try to give it an easy a line as possible from there.

---------- Post added at 06:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 AM ----------

you can also sort of check it by blasting water into it and seeing what it does.

MC#4

01-20-2012, 09:31 AM

Looks good.

Whats the exhaust look like?

If you mean exhaust ports, I didn't touch them. Old posts all say our exhaust ports are too big from factory. They are so short, I'm not sure there is much to gain with basic PNP. If you mean actual exhaust, Its factory ATM with a gutted cat. I have 1.5"/3.0" mandrel bent pipe laying here, I just have to weld it all up.

c2xejk

01-20-2012, 01:07 PM

The exits are too big. The port itself can benifit from a lot of work. Just don't touch the short-side radius! I have never seen a gain there and usually a lose. Raise the roof some.

Vigo

01-20-2012, 08:00 PM

I just ran 15.2@88 in my dynasty on Wednesday with very little mods and certainly no nitrous. Hopefully you will find your missing power at some point while assembling the next setup. Best of luck. :)

MC#4

01-20-2012, 08:42 PM

Must be nice living down south. The track here is closed Nov 1st to April 1st. Sounds like a damn good time for your dynasty. I'm convinced that my headgasket has been leaking for a while espcially after seeing how deterioriated the gasket is. I really can't wait to run this year. I'm hoping to hit high 12's with my Stealth and 13's would be awesome for the Shadow. I've got some big ol' nitrous jets so I think I can make it happen! :thumb:

turbovanman²

01-20-2012, 08:50 PM

Ditto, our season is April/May to Oct, but mostly its June to Sep, weather is too iffy otherwise, :(

Vigo

01-20-2012, 10:57 PM

Low 13s should be a sure thing with a good running motor and the right amount of nitrous!

Texas is nice right now.. in the winter.. only 60-70f..

But once march and april come around we hit triple digits and by june it's triple digits every day for ~60 days straight. Which SUCKS.

turbovanman²

01-20-2012, 11:25 PM

I could do with some triple digits right now, this freezing shitt is for the birds, :(

MC#4

01-21-2012, 10:21 PM

I made myself some 1/2" Delrin Plenum Spacers today! I grabbed a scrap piece on ebay for $20 and went to town. Took about 3 hrs ea. but I'm pretty happy with em. :thumb: I made a thread on the other site with more info on these. It's in the 3.0 section.

36917

Also got my fan relocated to the front for more header clearance. Its a PITA with a P-body. I had to rework the rad support bracket and grind away at the fan shroud and the back of my grille to make it fit.

36918

Vigo

01-22-2012, 12:20 AM

Those are some nice looking spacers.. good work!

RoadWarrior222

01-22-2012, 12:23 AM

Yup, awesome.

Never seen white Delrin before though I was thinking it only came in turd brown or black :D

Sundance 6g72

01-22-2012, 01:08 AM

delrin can be dyed certain colors too.

I like the spacers. With the fan on the otherside.. how do you get it to push air instead of pulling?

c2xejk

01-22-2012, 08:51 AM

MC#4

01-22-2012, 10:39 AM

Yeah I'm not sure exactly how well that fan will work as it sits. I have this car is a million pieces right now, so I'm just getting things in relative order. If I have trouble with temperature, I'll pull the grille and build a shroud around it, no big deal there. Thanks for the tips Ed.

RoadWarrior222

01-22-2012, 11:17 AM

Pusher fans are not as efficient as puller fans. If he wants that fan to be effective he will need to build a shroud for it. He might want to go to a junkyard and get a smaller fan that can be mounted right on the radiator. The one I used on my came from a '91 minivan.

I was about to dispute you on that, since fans develop basically no static pressure, so can never "suck" per-se ...BUT the important thing here is where the airflow is... Due to the rotation, a fan basically sucks near the hub and blows out round the rim. Ergo on a rad in pusher mode it develops good airflow only for a ring around the edges of the rad, in puller mode, it develops airflow right in the middle... Also a pusher would be more prone to recirculating a donut of air, due to low pressure in the center of it... on the airflow side, whereas the puller, the airflow has got a start in the center already... sort of.

Anyhoo... if you want a pusher setup, then twin pushers may work better, since then where they sit next to each other you'll get airflow through the middle of the rad at least.

paduster

01-22-2012, 11:56 AM

what did you search on ebay for that i put in derlin and got picks for guitars can u point me in the right direction

MC#4

01-22-2012, 12:09 PM

Search delrin sheet and search under the business & industrial category. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=delrin+sheet&_sacat=12576&_odkw=delrin&_osacat=12576&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

It's kind of a luck of the draw to get a piece that is "just" big enough.

MC#4

02-06-2012, 07:25 PM

Well I'm FINALLY back. My internet has been down for almost 2 weeks. It did give me alot of time to focus on the car though. It's back on the road and it's a blast to drive. Literally 5 minutes after I was out on my first drive in 3 months I pull out behind some guy in a primer black late 70's camaro, I followed him for a few miles and then he pulled off onto a back road and floored it. I was quick to follow and stayed right on him until about 80mph, then he slowed and turned into a driveway and I kept going. I turned around and stopped at a gas station and filled it up, As I'm leaving a 03ish mustang GT exits the gas station in a hurry. I was quick to tail him as well! I went out for a pass immediately but He saw me and held me out there until I had to pull back behind him because of traffic. I waited a bit and dropped it into 3rd and slingshot right around him. The whole day was so bizarre because No one EVER wants to play when I'm in the shadow.

Anyway the car is running stronger than ever. It pulls suprisingly well all the way to 7k with the socketed ecu. It does seem pretty gutless under 3k but there's still enough there to boil my 195/65 snow tires at will. I also just got my nitrous all hooked up but It's not 100% yet. I put the 75hp jets in but it runs rich (10.0 afr) with the recommended jets 41 NOS/ 24 Fuel. I put the #20 fuel jet in but it leaned it out too hard. (14.0+ afr) so I'll have to pick up some new jets to hit 11.5/12.0ish.

I do have some concerns with my N/A Air Fuel Ratio though, I can't for the life of me remember what the car ran like prior to my rebuild but it runs 14.0 at WOT now until 6k, then it tapers down to 13.4 at 7k. I'm not an expert on tuning so I'd like to hear what you guys think. I'm running strictly 93 pump gas and have not heard one blip of knock even when I was testing Nitrous with the smaller fuel jets and the wideband was saying 14.0+ afr from 3k-5k in 3rd. ( I'm on stock injectors/fuel pump, timing at 12 degrees, stock auto ecu map, just an increased rev limiter from shel-game.) Also my wideband sensor is right behind the stock cat shell (gutted). Otherwise stock exhaust. I do have a bunch of intake mods. Legit CAI, ported 52mm throttle body, Ported Plenum, 1/2" spacers, Some head porting on the intake side, Fresh 3 angle valve job.

I'll try and get some pics up asap.

Vigo

02-06-2012, 08:27 PM

Honestly, i wouldnt try to change those AFRs if it was my car. It's not going to hurt it n/a, and your nitrous fueling can be tuned in with jets.

Ive heard it said that people have gained power on n/a 3.0s by running them lean (for WOT..) which for an n/a motor is 13.5-14.0. If you wanted to tweak the numbers down you could do it with the cal, or get/build an AFPR and tweak the pressures slightly. The small adjustment needed probably wouldnt be enough to throw off your fuel trims.

I raced an 05+ 4.6 stang in my 3.0 dynasty. He didnt take me seriously enough to go into 3rd (highway roll), which was a mistake because with me in 3rd and him in 4th it was pretty even, which probably pissed him off. When i had to shift to 4th he walked away easily.

I also raced a 5.0 early 90s 3rd gen camaro RS. Actually beat that one. It's funny harassing v8s with mildly modded 3.0s but you really have to pick your battles.

I have an upcoming race at some point with a friend's bone stock 95 5.0/5spd sn95 stang. Based on my brief experience driving a stock 5.0 sn95 i think it will be close.. he doesnt. Which makes it funnier if im right!

Congrats on the progress.

Sundance 6g72

02-06-2012, 09:03 PM

ive done 17:1 when WOT it didnt hurt (N/A of course)

i can start to feel power drop off in the 14:1 air fuel ratio area.

my dyno run was at 13.2:1 from 2200rpms to 6200rpms

they say 13:1 is good for N/A and 12.5 for low boost and 11.5 for more boost. it all just depends though. i would shoot for 12.8afr if i was N/A again but i have no proof that it make more power than 13 or less. 14:1 will deff hurt you though.

not sure why it isnt running 13.2:1 or something close in the first place.. the ecu should adjust. give it a few days to dial its self in. at worst case you run a piggy back. thats my only beef with the stock ecu is the lack of being able to see what its doing. it works just fine but if something is wrong you cant just use the laptop to see whats up.

MC#4

02-07-2012, 11:59 AM

I guess I'll just run it as is for now and see if the ecu adjusts the afr down on its own. Even if it doesn't I'm going to race it late march early april and see what kind of numbers It puts down. If I'm not happy then, I'll look into richening it up. I did get my jets ordered last night so I should be able to run a 75 shot at ~12.0afr which will make me feel better.

Here's some pics I snapped of last weeks progress.

The box of junk is my weight reduction, I did manage to get a few more things in that box after I took the picture though, like the stock airbox and some of the underhood support and some other small stuff. Total weight according to my scale was 90lbs.

I Moved My fan again since I didn't like the way it came out the first time. I cut the factory support out and made a new one. I tested my fan by letting it idle until the fan kicked on and watching my scan tool until it turned off. The fan dropped it from 102c to 92c in 20-30 seconds. I moved the coolant overflow bottle too, actually I changed it from the factory one to a big soda bottle. It's lighter and not as cumbersome. Sadly I won't be able to build my headers for a while. My welder access has been crippled and not sure when it will return.

I had to put hood pins in since my secondary hood latch wouldn't work with the new fan placement. PA insp. requires 2 hood latches so that's that.

In the last pic you can see my CAI. I haven't seen any other 3.0's with a setup like this but it just made the most sense to me. It seems most people just put a cone filter on the TB and call it good. I wanted to keep the airflow though the ECU plus draw air from outside instead of from over the exhaust. My ecu even has a cool little velocity cone that sits right behind the headlight, I cut some of the support out around the headlight as well. I made the TB to filter adapter from the stock rubber tubing. I had to heat it up and put some serious force on it to make it fit the much bigger filter housing.

3729237297372943729537296

Sundance 6g72

02-07-2012, 12:08 PM

MC#4

02-07-2012, 12:30 PM

as long as you pull in close to atmospheric pressure when WOT, your intake is doing good.

nice reduction, ive been thinking off using a nos bottle as a resever.. might do that if i find a good spot to stick it. smaller and wont be in the way as much. plus it makes people laugh cuz my car will has NOS!!

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

also, if the ecu tunes your richer like it should, the previous jet you were using should work?

I don't have particularly high hopes for the ecu to adjust. I've been driving the car alot and it hasn't changed. If it does, then maybe my smaller fuel jet will be the ticket. Jets are $5 ea. so its no big loss either way.

I'm in a picture happy mood so here's a few more. You can see my cheesy overflow ziptied in place. My Bottle behind the seat and all the switches on my shifter. (Bottle heater/Line lock/Purge/Arming switch) Also check that daytona shifter boot!

372983729937300

I cannot wait for the track to open! only 52 days! I'd love to break the old N/A record of 14.20 while I'm off the spray but I dunno, maybe with a driver mod :o

c2xejk

02-07-2012, 01:48 PM

ive done 17:1 when WOT it didnt hurt (N/A of course)

i can start to feel power drop off in the 14:1 air fuel ratio area.

my dyno run was at 13.2:1 from 2200rpms to 6200rpms

they say 13:1 is good for N/A

Agreed. For NA, my experience is that if you go richer than 13:1, you are leaving hp on the table... Not sure about leaner, I haven't tried going leaner...

Sundance 6g72

02-07-2012, 03:33 PM

yeah i think the windows is closed by 14:0 too. i felt the car dog out on me when that happend.

MC#4

02-09-2012, 02:53 PM

I got my new fuel jet in today. Dropped my afr right where I wanted it. 11.5/12.0 on the spray. The 75 shot hits pretty hard but I'm sure bigger jets will be in when I get to the track. I've been watching my wideband more closely lately and it still runs awfully lean. 3k wot it goes rich for a moment when you mash it but leans out to 14.6ish and slowly tapers down to 14.0 as the rpms climb to 6k. I think an afpr would be the cheapest eaisest to tune as vigo suggested. I suppose a new cal from shel-game could work too but I need the car running, ( I don't have spare ecu's ). I don't have any experience with afpr's. Why doesn't the ecu adjust afr on its own? If I raise the fuel pressure won't the ecu just adjust the injector pulse width down to keep afr where it wants it?

A side note, My ecu is reading off the stock narrowband 02 sensor. I welded a new bung on for the wideband. I didn't realize at the time that you can wire the wideband to feed the ecu with info. Right now the wideband is just feeding my guage. Thoughts?

Sundance 6g72

02-09-2012, 03:50 PM

yes you can have the narrowband output from the wideband go to the ecu (if yours supports it, which you say it does)

this is cheeper then buyin a new narrowband to replace your current one.

what all changed to make the car run lean? I forget if you have ported heads and cams. what is cruising afr like? thats where the real changes should happen.

i get missinfo when talking about WOT ecu tuning.. some say it dials it in and others say its a fixed table (if its fixed, a fuel regualtor would do the trick)

ShelGame

02-09-2012, 04:00 PM

WOT is open-loop, no feedback, and it runs strictly off the tables. No adjustments are made to correct the AFR to any set value...

MC#4

02-09-2012, 04:02 PM

I do have a bunch of intake mods. Legit CAI, ported 52mm throttle body, Ported Plenum, 1/2" spacers, Some head porting on the intake side, Fresh 3 angle valve job. Exhaust is stock except the cat is gutted. I thought I remembered reading about the ecu not tuning at WOT but wasn't sure. That would make sense and explain why its not adjusting. Cruise is 14.7 +- .2 which is dead on according to my research.

ah thanks for clearing that up shel-game. I was typing this when you posted.

Sundance 6g72

02-10-2012, 02:04 PM

then a fuel regulator is a must. have you run it with the fresh heads before? im just trying to make sense of why it runs lean WOT.

MC#4

02-10-2012, 02:14 PM

I did ALL of those mods at one time, except the cat. I was running the car near stock until last november when I blew a head gasket. It's been down since then. I was gathering parts and info for my build since then and just recently got it running with all of those mods done.

Sundance 6g72

02-10-2012, 02:58 PM

so it ran fun WOT, car went down. you did a bunch of mods before getting it back on the road, and now its lean? makes sense

my car did 13.2 when wot.. if your doing 14:1, thats a big difference in air flow!

MC#4

02-10-2012, 04:21 PM

Here's the only data I have before the rebuild. It looks like its running around 13.0 and tapering all the way down to 12.3 or so in first gear. I hit my nitrous in second and my bottle was cold and almost empty so it ran super rich for the rest of that video. I think its fair to say I gained a whole mess or air flow with those mods! Should still be some power left if I can richen it up too.

http://contour.com/stories/drag-race

Sundance 6g72

02-10-2012, 04:26 PM

ill be disappointed if you dont go neck and neck with him now :)

i think the exhaust is holding you back. get them headers made! Ed's ve table values in the low end increased a good bit with his front header, i think with the bigger ID pipe it will help high end much more.

headers, 3inch, cam, and i think you should run that stealth if he hasnt changed anything sense.

MC#4

02-10-2012, 04:39 PM

I'd love to have my headers done + my 3in. exhaust but it'll have to wait.

That was my cousins stealth non-turbo and I actually lined up with him again the day I got the car back together (maybe 2 weeks ago) I was on super shitty snow tires and no nitrous. We ran from a dead stop until 75 or so and he was a half a car length behind my rear bumper. He had new kumho's on too. He's gotten a Twin Turbo AWD since then and has bolt on mods (~375crank hp) so hopefully I can come close to keeping up with my drag radials and nitrous. We're both hoping for high 12's with our Stealths and I think the shadow will be running low 13's after some seat time and tuning.

Sundance 6g72

02-10-2012, 04:51 PM

DAMN! thats a big difference to go from losing by a length or two to being a half car ahaid nice.

you plan on making more videos when you run the twin turbo?

MC#4

02-10-2012, 04:58 PM

Oh yeah there will be a flood of videos showing my exploits! I'll have to wear a helmet for all my runs now since they require it for 13.99 and faster. Before I only wore the helmet on occasion (with helmet cam) but I want to record as often as possible. I did have one vid of me running my TT vs. his but my ecu took a crap at the starting line and the car would barely run. I was pissed!

I thought about making a vid on the street but my bright red helmet kinda sticks out to other drivers!

Vigo

02-10-2012, 07:43 PM

DAMN! thats a big difference to go from losing by a length or two to being a half car ahaid nice.

Yeah, the difference between trapping 84 and trapping 88+. I think he found his problem one way or another.

Ondonti

02-11-2012, 08:41 PM

I am gonna hate on everyone who gets to race! Season here ends way too soon and starts way too early (weather wise).
Would be fun to see a couple 14 second cars this year and a few 13's. I plan on running the Duster n/a if I get the chance but its bone stock with an intake manifold.

MC#4

02-11-2012, 09:22 PM

I cannot wait to start racing! It's gonna be a huge year for me. I'll finally have the shadow running respectable numbers.(fingers crossed) My cousin and I will have our little TT stealth duel. I did run faster than him last year on the last day of the season. 14.25 to 14.88 but we were both having serious problems. My dad is prepping his 10 second 440 roadrunner after an 8 year nap. I just did a recount and its only 41 days until the track opens!

I took the shadow up one day for a test and tune last year and a guy in a mustang GT and the girl handing out time slips were like, Woah what do you have done to that thing! I was only running low-mid 15's! lol

MC#4

03-20-2012, 09:43 PM

Went and got my nitrous bottle filled yesterday. Have to drive 45mins to get there and pay $5 a lb. but I got it. Can't believe I burned up 8 lbs just testing it out on the street! Today I swapped out my snow tires for my drag radials and getting everything ready to race on Saturday. Weather forecast is saying 58* and rain though so I might not be able to go opening day. :( Got my fingers crossed that the rain holds off until Late Saturday!

I do have some predictions although I've been way off in the past due to some overlooked problems. I'm hoping to crack into the high 14's N/A and 13.50's on a 75 shot by the end of the day. I'm still running lean N/A but I'm sitting at about 12.0 afr when I hit the nitrous. Really hoping I can get some 1.9 60' launches as well. Pics and videos coming soon!

Sundance 6g72

03-21-2012, 12:04 AM

woo! ! !

bakes

03-21-2012, 12:41 AM

you should be good for 150shot

MC#4

03-25-2012, 08:56 AM

Hmm, I don't think I'm ready for a 150shot, I've been out of work for 4 months so the fact that I'm going racing at all is pretty crazy. I've got my fingers crossed that nothing breaks on 75 extra hp.

Track got rained out yesterday and its real cloudy today. I'm gonna try and go and get some passes in though. I'll try and get some video and post up later.

MC#4

03-25-2012, 06:59 PM

Well the weather turned out to be beautiful today! Got about 15 passes in and beat my old time. That's about it for the good news though. The track was still damp early today so they made us run 1/8 mile for the first 2 hours. I didn't want to waste nitrous on 1/8 mile so I ran about without it for a while.

Best 1/8 mile (No Nitrous)
60' 2.264
330' 6.369
1/8 9.823
MPH 71.49

Then I ran (2) 1/4 mile passes still without nitrous for a baseline. Best was 15.53. Slip below.

Then I got serious, I had my 75hp jets in but my times only dropped to low 15's and were kinda erratic and it just didn't feel like it was hitting very hard. I made 3-4 passes like this and then I pulled into the pits and notice some smoke coming out from under the hood! Turns out My pass. side radiator end tank decided to crack. I let it cool down for a while and decided to run it anyway since it was a small leak and didn't lose much fluid. I made 3-4 more passes and got a single 14 sec. pass for the day. 14.73@93mph. It felt alot better when I flipped the switch but these times are no where near my expectations.

What went wrong? My wideband was acting up alot today. It stayed stuck on 14.6 for some of the passes for some reason. I found it pretty hard to watch it while racing, sometimes not even glancing at it the whole pass. I used my helmet cam so I could go back and watch it with more scrutiny but I turned the settings down to 720p for faster uploads. Without 1080p you can't read the numbers! My nitrous wasn't working right again either. Everytime I looked at the wideband on Nitrous is was 10.0 (when the W/B was working). I know my jets were right and I know the bottle is full. The purge worked fine so I'm pretty sure my nitrous solenoid was sticking throughout the day. Keep in mind that solenoid is from 1998 and was used when I bought the kit! Just my cheapskate way of doing things catching up with me.

Here's my best 1/4 timeslips. Left is no nitrous and Right is with 75 shot.38534

Here's a vid of my 14.73 run. http://contour.com/stories/dodge-shadow-147393mph (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcontour.com%2Fstories%2Fdodge-shadow-147393mph&h=HAQED69bBAQF7xZeso93u_cyAoIYh5Z9qyhYqUy2c698PXA)

Just a refresher here's a quick list of major mods.
Nitrous
Drag radials
Air shocks pumped up to 100psi in rear
solid bobble
filled motor mounts
CAI
Ported Plenum
PNP heads (intake side only)
Fresh 3 angle valve job
Ported 52mm TB
Gutted cat
1/2" plenum spacers

Stock cams/bottom end/clutch/exhaust.
Race Weight ~2800 with me and some tools.

Last year I ran 16.00 almost completely stock (just drag radials/gutted cat/air shocks/motor mounts) no nitrous.
With a 50 shot I ran 15.28 last year.

Vigo

03-25-2012, 07:43 PM

You seem to go into 4th really early.. You shift to 4th right at the 1/8th and your slip shows you to be going 75 at that point. IMO you should probably be holding 3rd to at least 6200, maybe 6500, and that's probably closer to 85-90mph. When i got my 15.2 n/a pass i shifted to 4th right before the 5800 limiter and im convinced the car would be faster if i could take 3rd farther.

Trapping 86 n/a is a lot better than where you started so you are definitely going in the right direction! However i still feel like something is not working EXACTLY right because i would expect those mods to get you 90-91mph n/a.. My car trapped 88.5 with cone filter on the stock intake pipe, non-ported plenum (divider removed tho) and no spacers, and stock heads and lower intake, and untouched 52mm tb. Im not sure how much running flat tires (slicks) eats into your trap speed but i was running 12-15psi as well. I think there is probably 5 or more mph left just in getting the car to it's full potential without any more mods.

What is your base timing set to?

MC#4

03-25-2012, 07:55 PM

Yeah in that vid I shifted into 4th around 5300rpms according to stock tach. I did back to back runs without nitrous and I was a tenth slower when I rode 3rd through the traps as opposed to hitting 4th around 5800. My lean issue really needs to be taken care of. I need to get some money coming in asap. (Don't forget I have a 7k limiter from shel-game.)

Left is 4th and right is running the traps in 3rd. (~6500rpms)

38539

base timing is untouched so I assume 12*. I actually never checked it. doh! I agree that the car has alot more potential, I just need to get the afr's down from ~14.5 to 13.0 at WOT.

Vigo

03-25-2012, 10:24 PM

Ok, looking at those two slips, all but .02X of the ET loss was before the 1/8th so that small loss had nothing to do with riding 3rd. In fact, what it looks like is that staying in 3rd almost totally made up for the slower 1/8th mile ET by the end of the 1/4, even with the power problem holding you back.

So, considering that, it looks like if the car made proper power you would actually gain by staying in 3rd. So, like you said, the fact that 3rd isn't a gain for you comes down to it being out of tune.

Keep up the good work!

FYI, my dynasty is at 15* base timing on 87 octane. Only set it once because i swapped on a UDP with no marks, so its possible it may even benefit from more than that.

Sundance 6g72

03-25-2012, 10:50 PM

if you have 3.77 final drive the gears go like this

35mph
55
85
125
163

thats with 24.5inch tires. I would hold 3rd till like 85mph and then jump into 4th. the speedo is prolly more accurate than the tach at high rpm.

MC#4

03-25-2012, 11:36 PM

I've got 3.50 FD and 225/50/15 tires, Not sure what diameter that comes to. I shifted at several different points throughout the day and didn't notice any big changes.

A note on timing, It's been mentioned to me before that I should bump up timing but when running nitrous you should back off timing 2 degrees. So instead of advancing it to 15* where it makes peak power and retarding it 2* for nitrous use, I just leave it as is at 12*. I am going to check it regardless since I never have. On second thought maybe I should bump it up to 13-14. I run 93 octane all the time in case I wanna hit the go fast button on the street.

Sundance 6g72

03-25-2012, 11:47 PM

i say go for it on the timing. N/A these motors dont like to knock with 87 octane (that you can HEAR!) but with nos it might be a different story

use this to figure out gearings with your tires and such

http://www.squirrelpf.com/gearingcalc/index.php

awsome tool!

Force Fed Mopar

03-27-2012, 10:42 AM

I wouldn't wind it out in third, in fact I'd almost shift early. The engine isn't making power above 6k with stock cams anyway, short shifting will let it use it's torque.

Vigo

03-27-2012, 11:58 AM

I wouldn't wind it out in third, in fact I'd almost shift early. The engine isn't making power above 6k with stock cams anyway,

So in spite of the fact that him riding 3rd, even with bad AFR, made up ET he lost in the 1/8th, you would still say it's a bad idea? If the car was running right he would have gained ET and probably had the same mph (maybe more?) by riding 3rd out on the n/a pass, imo. I shift right at the 5800 limiter on mine and it has less breathing mods, and i trap higher.. I would say for a near stock motor around 6200 rpm is a good shift point, unless the shift costs you more time than just riding it to 6600 or whatever.

RoadWarrior222

03-27-2012, 12:18 PM

Or give it a ram scoop to help wheeze over the line :D

MC#4

03-27-2012, 01:30 PM

I Really expected the car to run quicker staying in 3rd since it's just less shifting. As it sits power tapers off pretty quickly around 5500 though. When It comes down to it, Nothing I can do with shifting is gonna improve these times to where they should be. I need to get an afpr and get more fuel to it. I'm confident there is A LOT of power left on the table. Last year N/A afr was ~12.7 and I ran 16.00. Now I'm ~14.5 and running 15.50's.

I think I'm gonna hold off on fixing the nitrous until I can get sub 14 second N/A passes. No use wasting all that money to band-aid a lean condition. I ordered a new rad. and should have it installed this weekend. Looking at afprs online, talking to a member here about one now.

In other news my Stealth is tearing sh*t up since I got my MBC in! Taking it to the track this Friday if the weather holds. I don't have any good vids of that at the track so hopefully I can snag a few.

Family Portrait (All V6 5-speeds oddly enough)

38579

Left to Right
Ol reliable
20 year old jap crap
Race car (previously ol reliable until it broke down countless times)

Sundance 6g72

03-27-2012, 10:15 PM

i agree. get it right without the spray! 14.5 is SOOOOOOOOOOO LEAN and if your doing 15.5s while that lean, itl be much quicker when its doing 13.2 or a little richer I THINK. i know my car turned into a pig when i ran it that lean while NA

Force Fed Mopar

03-28-2012, 01:59 AM

So in spite of the fact that him riding 3rd, even with bad AFR, made up ET he lost in the 1/8th, you would still say it's a bad idea? If the car was running right he would have gained ET and probably had the same mph (maybe more?) by riding 3rd out on the n/a pass, imo. I shift right at the 5800 limiter on mine and it has less breathing mods, and i trap higher.. I would say for a near stock motor around 6200 rpm is a good shift point, unless the shift costs you more time than just riding it to 6600 or whatever.

Yes I still say it's a bad idea :) The mph is slower, means the power is running out. Of course, if it isn't running right, then it's all conjecture anyway ;)

MC#4

03-29-2012, 03:35 PM

Got my new radiator in today. Went with a spectra from ebay for $89 shipped. It's definately lighter than factory and seems to cool a bit better than my old cracked, clogged unit from 1994. Messed around trying to diagnose my nitrous issue but didn't figure anything out. The solenoid tested out fine and worked great on 35hp jets. Might be sticking intermittently I guess.

Checked my base timing for the first time ever. It was at 17* according to my timing light. I set it down to 14*.

Sundance 6g72

03-29-2012, 09:30 PM

might go faster with less timing.

I might consider that radiator too. i think im just going to buy a new one.. mine is from 1993 and has had its fair share of pure water for extended periods of time.

Ondonti

03-30-2012, 05:25 AM

MC#4

03-30-2012, 09:26 AM

I don't think a gutted cat is much of a mod if you don't mention anything else about exhaust. I ran quicker and faster n/a with a full cat (but nothing after it) on an a604. The only thing I know is that it was running well.

17 degrees of timing with a 75 shot...............

14.5:1 AFR..........Whats going on with that cal? You have no reason to need an AFPR to get the proper AFR. What is wrong? What else was changed?
Also, since your wideband doesn't seem to be working, a lot of your AFR information might be worthless. I would be afraid to run spray with that much timing with a bad Wb02 sensor.

I see no gain shifting to 4th before 6200 rpms, or even much later.
Thanks to gearing (mechanical advantage) there is never a point that 4th gear accelerates faster then 6200 rpms in 4th gear. Joe made 125hp at 6200 rpms and 146hp @ peak.
4th gear for that 3.50 trans is 1.04 and 3rd gear is 1.45. 3rd gear therefore ALWAYS wins. No dyno data after that but you would have to drop down to 104hp to have less output in 3rd gear then the equivalent MPH in 4th. IMO, if the 3.0 Torque cover drops he way it does (slowly dropping more and more) then hp will be 104 around 6600 rpms. He would be going 92mph in 3rd then. Obviously no reason to shift at 75mph! Joe's motor was running well in that dyno test. A poor running motor might make terrible power up high.

My personal goal is to take 3rd gear over 120mph and then either redo the transmission to be shorter gear'd or longer geared to optimize powerband use or minimize shifting. Using a gear for a short period of time takes you out of power for .25 to over 1 second depending on how well you shift.

When it comes to a trap speed, at high altitude I ran high 15's @ 85-87mph, I used both 5800 rpm limiter and 6200 rpm limiter computers. Never helped to shift to 4th. Only reason I shifted sometimes was because the just sounded like I should shift. The fact is that I didn't have much power so it just felt like maybe something would blow up making that sound for so long. Vigo just drove my Holset car and he never road out a gear because I assume it just sounded to him like he should shift. High altitude ='d no power. Same exact setup ran 92mph at sea level a few weeks later. Exactly what SAE elevation correction would predict. It was running well and AFR's were 12.5 to 12.7 on good runs at high elevation.
I just can't suggest someone shift just because of the obvious acceleration loss when you pass peak HP. Just because you are accelerating less then you were at peak HP does not mean 4th gear is going to help, even at peak hp.

Just to be a bit of a jerk about torque vs hp talk. You take a CVT transmission and race me at peak torque, I will race you at peak HP. The best you can hope for is a tie against peak HP.

I would also like to say that I have never made a pass that someone else could not have improved upon by shifting faster.

Not sure how to do multi quotes so bear with me here.

I have heard of people saying gutting cats doesn't make more power but it was beyond free since I sell the guts on ebay and it can't hurt. Plus now there's nothing in there to melt and clog when my nitrous acts up and I run at 10.0 afr over and over.

Yeah I admit it was pretty stupid to not check the timing after I put it all back together, its fixed now. Keep In mind I'm not so sure I've ever gotten 75hp from those 75hp jets. I'm having issues with it as usual running super rich on the spray.

The Cal is fine. Nothings changed from a stock 94 Auto cal except rev and speed limiters were upped to 7k and some ridiculous MPH. Here's the theory on why the AFR is so lean. When the car was very near stock and I had the W/B in It ran just right ~12.5 or so N/A WOT. I blew a headgasket and did a fair amount of mods over the winter, ported heads, intake, yada yada. I get it all back together and now it runs ~14.5 N/A WOT. It cruises great at again roughly 14.5 and always has. Shel-game said that the ecu does not adjust at WOT and if that's the case my car SHOULD run lean with all the extra airflow. The way I see it, the ecu is only opening the injectors long enough to supply enough fuel for x amount of airflow when I am well over x at any given point on the WOT table. I'd be interested if you contest any part of this theory since I can't see how it could be any other way.

I'm not 100% sure whats up with my W/B yet but it must be a bad ground/loose wire because when it works, it acts normal and is consistent. I feel it is accurate when it's working.

You guys are obsessed with shifting technique.;) I shifted 3/4 all over the place and didn't notice big gains/losses. The car is a full second slower than I expected so I wasn't too concerned about a tenth lost from a short shift. I see what you're saying about mechanical advantage and I'll be dialing in the shifts plenty when I get the car running right.

RoadWarrior222

03-30-2012, 10:01 AM

and has had its fair share of pure water for extended periods of time.

Pure water, not much of a problem, the problem is, people usually use water outa the tap, with whatever minerals and ions.

Sundance 6g72

03-30-2012, 10:48 AM

^ i meant hose water from the city :yuck:

Brent's idea is spot on with riding 3rd gear all the way. that makes me re think how i will do things when i race

this is the dyno slip from the run brent was talking about.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253791_10150260606898899_534573898_8688963_8217905 _n.jpg

This video is a good one to show torque loss when pulling on a dyno in all the gears. at the end you get a glimpse of 1st gear - 4th or so and 1st makes the most tq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdLI1Hap0xA&list=FL2O7up8bO4XzbMD1zwS31Ag& index=5&feature=plpp_video

i still think the regulator is needed for WOT tuning.. it makes sense as long as the cal dosnt tune that area of the table. I wish i would have had a wideband on a bone stock 3.0 to test this. on the dyno i was at 13.2:1. I did not have ported heads. If the ported heads lean you out that much, thats a HUGEEE improvement.

MC#4

03-30-2012, 03:07 PM

ARGHH! I smoked the clutch in my Stealth today testing out the MBC!!! Looks like the almighty Shadow will be racing tonite after all! Just for fun really, not looking to shatter any records tonite. I guess its true ya gotta pay to play.

Force Fed Mopar

03-30-2012, 03:10 PM

Lol, I was wondering how long it'd be before you posted a drivetrain issue on the Stealth :D Those cars you definitely gotta pay to play (as with any AWD car).

RoadWarrior222

03-30-2012, 03:26 PM

Hmmmm that's an idea, right a coin mech to the ignition.... at least then you can empty it when you get stuck for parts money :D

Ondonti

03-30-2012, 09:59 PM

I really wanted to know about your actual exhaust modifications, saying that gutted cat is too vague!

I never looked at AFR racing at sea level and 92mph but I did just remember that @ high elevation I was running 30# injectors with low base pressure. Same at Sea level.

MC#4

03-30-2012, 11:23 PM

RW222 I love that idea! I should totally hook up a cab meter or something and keep the money in the glovebox until something breaks.

I really wanted to know about your actual exhaust modifications, saying that gutted cat is too vague!

I never looked at AFR racing at sea level and 92mph but I did just remember that @ high elevation I was running 30# injectors with low base pressure. Same at Sea level.

Not sure what you want me to say? I gutted the cat, that's it. Still running stock manifolds, muffler and everything. I didn't even touch the exhaust side when I ported the heads.

Ok now onto the good news. The car was running better tonite. My weak will gave in and I ran with the spray. (I really was gonna run N/A but nitrous is like an addiction!) The jets are equivalent to about a 40ish shot. I changed it up a little and ran nitrous right off the line instead of waiting for 2nd gear like usual. It worked out pretty well. I got my best 60' ever at 2.13 as well as my best ET ever at 14.62. I think I shifted at 6k almost every single shift, I won't say that it's the best way to go but it just feels natural. I got some good footage and had an absolute blast beatin up on my cousin's TT stealth (red) and his wife's N/A stealth (black). To be fair to him, his car still isn't running right, his boost was right where it needed to be but something was holding him back. She was stuggling to launch her car especially with the pro tree.

On to the vids!
http://contour.com/stories/shadow-1492-vs-stealth-1678 first pass (not a great launch)

http://contour.com/stories/shadow-1464-vs-tt-stealth-1495 (only caught half of the race!)

http://contour.com/stories/shadow-1462-vs-stealth-1576 Best pass

Sundance 6g72

03-31-2012, 02:12 AM

i thought stock stealth TT ran 13.5 with a good driver... something deff wrong i would think.

MC#4

03-31-2012, 02:52 AM

Yeah mid high 13's is about right for stock. He's got some work done to it but there's def. something wrong. He's sunk so much time and money into it I think he's just getting sick of trying to get all the kinks out. I admit I'm struggling to keep mine on the road but for me it's about the $$$. I've got so much time/money and it still needs ALOT. That's why I love the Shadow, It's just so much simpler and cheaper and even with all my problems, it's way more reliable.

Vigo

03-31-2012, 01:37 PM

MC#4

03-31-2012, 02:31 PM

I changed both jets, I went smaller on the nitrous and smaller on the fuel. I did that mostly just to test the system trying to figure out what was going on but I didn't really learn much because it worked great on the small jets. afr held between 11.5/12.5 the whole pass. My wideband still cuts out once in a while. I removed the harness today to look for problems but haven't found anything yet. I don't have a video but on the one pass the W/B was working fine up to the starting line and then it just locked on to 14.6 as soon as I launched.

Ondonti

03-31-2012, 03:22 PM

MC#4

03-31-2012, 03:46 PM

So my point about running 30# injectors was that I didn't have stock fueling. Josh Simon was running a 55psi turbo regulator on his car as well.

My point about exhaust is that you are running stock exhaust and expecting to run times that you have to modify the exhaust for. Running spray on stock exhaust is an especially wasteful thing. Nitrous just increases your already excessive backpressure by creating even more exhaust.

Is your car still running super lean off the spray?

Aha! I wondered if anyone knew about josh's fuel setup. I couldn't get it though my head how he ran a 14.2 on stock fuel.

Yeah I'm sure you're right about the exhaust, I had plans to make full headers and go to 3" but it hasn't worked out yet. I've got all the materials but no where to build em right now. I don't think I'd call the spray a "waste" right now. 40hp jets make the car run .9 seconds faster. 14.6 is a whole lot more impressive than 15.5.

Yes it still runs lean N/A around 14.5 I haven't changed anything

It seems to me if I got an afpr or maybe just a different regualtor? and get my exhaust built, the car would run much closer to expectations

Sundance 6g72

03-31-2012, 04:20 PM

did josh ever run ported heads then? I assumed he had stock fuel therefor assume stock portwork on the heads.

i would not guess and get the 55psi regulator.. i would get an adjustable one (though there is a guide somewhere to turn the turbo regulator into an adjustable unit. turbo as in 2.2/2.5 regulator.)

and like brent said, get the exhaust on. I know you plan on doing it, otherwise i would hound you about it much more often. ED saw an awesome jump in his VE table when re replaced his front manifold with a custom header.

Force Fed Mopar

03-31-2012, 07:54 PM

Did you change the fuel jets or leave them at the previous setting to richen your fuel?

I agree with Brent that if you are only trapping high 80s, low 90s, it's never worth it to shift to 4th if the car is running right. But, that's also dependent on your tire size. I was running 23" tires so i had to shift to 4th to get to 88mph. And i cant argue with MC that if you try different things and it doesnt make that much difference, you should do whatever you want. Either way the car has always had bigger fish to fry than shift points.. I just thought shifting into 4th at 75 was a little crazy in that one vid.

Sounds like your stereotypical TT AWD experience.. lol.

I guess I just said it to get him to try different things. Usually I don't pay much attention to the tach, as they are notoriously inaccurate on these cars. I just get used to the feel of the car, then shift whenever it feels like it stops pulling hard. I have gotten better times by short shifting when the tune wasn't right. Get the tune right to where it pulls all the way up and yeah, better times can be had by shifting later.

My point being, the 3.0 SOHC really wasn't designed to pull up to 6k+, not with stock cams anyway. It makes more torque than hp too. With mods and cams, sure it pulls higher. He has a completely stock exhaust side though, so regardless of what gets put into it, it still has the same size path to exit through. What that limit is though, I dunno. I think he has stock cams too? Which are designed to lug grandmas and soccer mom w/ kids around at sub-3000 revs and get good mileage in 3400+lb vehicles.

Having never actually run a V6 car down the track, that is all a S.W.A.G on my part though :) I just like stirring the pot sometimes too lol.

Sundance 6g72

03-31-2012, 10:15 PM

their point is it still makes more power by staying in third than shifting into 4th and staying there for a shore amount of time (cross finish line before you get going hard in 4th)

Ondonti

04-01-2012, 03:31 AM

But I think the main problem here is the stock exhaust, making almost all of this chatter worthless. With all these mods, to keep running stock exhaust means his top end might be quite terrible. 3.0 revs to 6k fine when you actually have a complete bolton's car. I don't know anybody else who has tried to run with a stock exhaust but a bunch of other mods. Anybody who has taken off the tiny exhaust can tell you how much the off idle performance changes (loss of power at 1000 rpms) and how the top end changes. Auto trans is easiest to tell the power loss at 1k because you need to use more converter to get going but in a 5 speed you don't really use 1000 rpms unless you are lugging like I always do.

TT 3/S cars can run 10's on stock exhaust, we can't. :p
Clutch was bound to go on that car. It can take a few HARD launches and then its toast.

I am excited to see what the car can do when its able to breath. Until then... :( If its a money thing you can hack the exhaust off after the cat until you can afford something. Will not be great on the ears. Seems like you have a few cars to drive if you need quiet.

Sundance 6g72

04-01-2012, 11:31 AM

5spd car never felt sluggish with big exhaust AND you can still lug around :eyebrows:

im afraid he will go even leaner if he dosnt fix the fueling issue :nod:

MC#4

04-04-2012, 12:56 PM

38663
Got a pretty cool action shot on the drag strips homepage!

Nothing new with my car, still waiting for some $ to get an afpr. My cousin's stealth has been down a few days now. I let him borrow my wideband to see what was going on and while we were out driving it, something big let loose. Right now I think the transfer case is locking up but there is a noise in the clutch area like a siezed throw out bearing too. Gonna be a busy weekend dropping the trans in his driveway to see what's up.

Hopefully starting my new job next week! Then We'll get this Shadow into the 13's.:rockon:

Sundance 6g72

04-04-2012, 02:21 PM

dont go too fast yet. wait for me to get my boosted motor into the 11s before you touch 13s :nod:

RoadWarrior222

04-04-2012, 02:30 PM

I don't know anybody else who has tried to run with a stock exhaust but a bunch of other mods. Anybody who has taken off the tiny exhaust can tell you how much the off idle performance changes (loss of power at 1000 rpms) and how the top end changes. .

Hmmm what are you meaning by stock the 2.25"? or 2.5"?

Vigo

04-04-2012, 07:49 PM

stock exhaust is a lot smaller than 2.25 at the back. On my 3.0 car it went from 2.5 downpipe to <2", actually way less, inside the stock resonator behind the cat, and from there back i think it was 1 7/8.

RoadWarrior222

04-04-2012, 08:56 PM

OIC, vans were never quite that bad, but mine got a 2.25 muffler on it back in the day, due to a tarded shop, that sucked. I gots 2.5 all the way back with "stock replacement" parts so figured it was common.

Vigo

04-04-2012, 10:00 PM

Yeah, i think the stock resonator on my car was by far the worst flowing part.

My 3.0 dynasty doesnt have a particularly good exhaust anyway, though. It's 2.5 downpipe, 2.5 glasspack, to stock 2.25 90s and bends made by welding angle cuts together over the axle, to a chambered flowmaster with a stock turbo caravan tip which is probably smaller than 2.25 in flow area. However, it's been good enough to run what i have run. I dont plan on upgrading it any further, and i think i can still get into the 14s pretty easily with it.

Wiscoballer

04-10-2012, 11:25 PM

do you use the sniper setup? Looking at it now, not sure I want to drop the $350 on it, especially with the upgrades I want for the turbo.

MC#4

04-11-2012, 05:52 PM

My setup is cobbled together with parts from NOS, Nitrous Express, Zex, Jegs, and probably others. I bought a "kit" on Craigslist for like $150 and went from there. I really wouldn't bother with it if you're gonna turbo. I'm now convinced that nitrous is good for one thing, Drag racing. It's a joke on the street due to cost. It's $50 to fill a 10 lb. bottle around here and that lasts literally 2 minutes of use. It really doesn't hit hard enough to matter on the street anyway unless you have a massive shot and then it just burns up even faster.

In other news I started my new job last Friday, so soon I'll have some money coming in and get this car running better. Working as a Tech 3 at the local Sears. Seems like a pretty cake job so far with decent hours.

Wiscoballer

04-11-2012, 05:58 PM

I just thought the extra 75 shot, with the turbo, would put me over the 300 barrier if I take it to the track.

MC#4

04-11-2012, 06:10 PM

Well don't let me talk you out of it. I'm just passing the info along so you can make an informed decision. If you are gonna track it nitrous is pretty great. I would highly recommend a bottle heater though if you want any kind of consistency. Unless it's 100 degrees outside the bottle pressure will be low and you'll get less power than rated plus you'll run rich as hell.

I don't think you'll have any trouble hitting 300hp with a decent turbo even without the nitrous.

Sundance 6g72

04-11-2012, 08:00 PM

lets say 8psi puts you at 270hp. 12psi might put you at 310hp.

getting over 300hp is not hard when you are turbo. its all about the quality of the tune and your block handling the power. your stock rings are gapped to tight to handle an aggresive tune for high horsepower.

MC#4

05-15-2012, 08:16 PM

Feels like forever since I've done anything to this car. I did pick up 2 more snowflake rims so I can switch my street tires/drag radials when needed and I just ordered an AEM afpr/guage/fittings so maybe I can take care of my lean issue at WOT...finally.

I can't believe I've become the guy that never has any money and takes months to make any progress. Sigh. I've had my headers/3inch exhaust pipe for about 6 months already and I don't really have a timeline of getting it together.:( One of these days...

RoadWarrior222

05-15-2012, 08:38 PM

I can't believe I've become the guy that never has any money and takes months to make any progress. Sigh.

Why not, it's a classic 3.0 thing :D

We'll have retirement parties, at 85 or so, when we're finally allowed to retire, and we'll sit around talking "Remember that month when I changed the oil and still had enough for a tank of gas, whoooweeee!!! them was the days..."

Sundance 6g72

05-15-2012, 10:32 PM

at least you have the parts on hand.. just gotta find time to do it!

Force Fed Mopar

05-16-2012, 08:09 PM

Welcome to the club :lol:

turbovanman²

05-16-2012, 08:20 PM

Why not, it's a classic 3.0 thing :D

We'll have retirement parties, at 85 or so, when we're finally allowed to retire, and we'll sit around talking "Remember that month when I changed the oil and still had enough for a tank of gas, whoooweeee!!! them was the days..."

What you talkin about Willis, its a lot of people have this issue thing, :(

MC#4

05-18-2012, 08:26 PM

Got my afpr but got a few problems. I don't understand how the ports on this thing are supposed to seal? The ports don't have an internal flare for the -6an fittings to seal agianst. I don't see how an oring would seal either since the threads start immediately with no oring groove on the afpr itself. Crush washers have potential I guess? AEM's instructions don't mention anything about it though?

39693

3969539694

Also what needs to be done with the stock fpr? Can I just take the guts out of it and leave the shell on there or something more creative?

link to afpr http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVM-25-302BK/

Sundance 6g72

05-18-2012, 09:46 PM

i think you can take an 80s style fuel rail and mod it to accept an AN fitting.

why not locktight the threads? or teflon tape?

shackwrrr

05-18-2012, 10:04 PM

MC#4

05-18-2012, 10:45 PM

i think you can take an 80s style fuel rail and mod it to accept an AN fitting.

why not locktight the threads? or teflon tape?

I hope there is an easier way than swapping AND modding fuel rails. Not un-doable but seems like the hard way to do it.

The threads are parallel, not tapered like pipe threads and no amount of thread tape/loctite would seal it from what I see. I'm really swaying toward crush washers since all the surfaces are machined flat.

Looks like its actually a pipe thread. The an fitting just happens to fit.

Although that would make sense to me in this application, I'm pretty confident that they aren't pipe threads. AEM instructions confirm they are 9/16-18 threads (-6an). The guage port is NPT and the guage threads in and wedges as it should.

Sundance 6g72

05-19-2012, 12:15 AM

im pretty sure you have to mod the rail... it shuldnt be hard to chop off the part that the stock regulator bolts to and weld an AN fitting into place.

something tells me that ed knows where to buy an adapter for the rail but im not certain.

Ondonti

05-19-2012, 05:45 AM

Just stick the O ring on there and screw it down. its gonna hit the metal housing before it hits the threads.

Sundance 6g72

05-19-2012, 12:11 PM

here is a spair rail of mine. all you need to do is hack off the end that the stock regulator bolts to and rig it to have an AN fitting instead. the stock regulator is a choke point so you mine as well just delete it.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/538108_10150967989918899_534573898_11730538_103592 7721_n.jpg

if you dont want to mess up your current rail, you can have this one. i dont need it. its a 93 rail.

shayne

05-19-2012, 01:57 PM

my fuel lab afpr regulator has the same threads, and the holes are tapped for the -6an fittings without a flare on the end. you got to use a o-ring and tourque it down, put a little bit of light oil o the o-ring before torquing it down.

MC#4

05-19-2012, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the tips guys.

Sundance, I think I still have a spare rail laying around as well so I should be good to go. Thanks though!

MC#4

05-20-2012, 07:08 PM

Well in other news I literally blew the transfer case out of my stealth today. It's laying on the ground under the car in the parking lot where I work. I just pray that the transmission case is ok. The sad part is I'm on freakin 6 lbs of boost with stock turbos! That car is making all of about 200whp right now.

Guess I won't be getting that afpr on the shadow tomorrow...

Sundance 6g72

05-20-2012, 10:41 PM

stop making me not want a 3000gt

Vigo

05-21-2012, 12:29 AM

^ LOL

As a professional technician i luckily wised up before buying and got a FWD 12v 3kgt. A little more work to get to stock VR4 power, but you couldnt MAKE it break as often even if you tried.

Ondonti

05-21-2012, 03:46 AM

18 splines of glory

Spiritman

05-21-2012, 11:41 AM

i have the same fuel psi reg with the same fittings. i used large plastic washers meant for a large drain plug. i didnt think it would work but been in there three years. works fine. on a side note this reg seems quite problematic for leaks and such. for the price i am not happy.

MC#4

06-01-2012, 12:06 AM

After a little bit of research, looks like sundance was right about getting an 80's rail and modding it. I checked my spare rail (99) and it won't work, looks like a returnless type. The one on my car (94) would be a pain to modify. Same as the one sundance posted. I found a pic on the other site that knightmoves posted when he put an afpr on his car.
39901
I need a rail that looks like the top one in the pic. Just chop the stock FPR off and slip a AN tube nut on there. Although me being a cheapass, I'll probably just chop the fpr, put a bump on that tube with a flaring tool and use fuel injection hose to run to my barb fittings on the AFPR. I have too much stainless braided line underhood for my nitrous setup anyway.

RANT!
I keep throwing my thread off topic with me moaning about my stealth but I need to vent sometimes. I got the car up on a lift about a week ago to find that the blown t-case did in fact take out the lower part of the bellhousing. ARGH! Only one month after my new clutch and I have to drop that trans again and replace the bellhousing. I found some used parts cheap online, so when I get them, I'll get the car driveable and then its outta here. I can't afford to make the car reliable (for the way I drive) so it's just going to keep breaking. I've got most of my mods off the car now and up for sale on 3si. Maybe with that car gone I can focus more on the shadow. /rant

Sundance 6g72

06-01-2012, 01:16 AM

http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/runaway.gif

for some reason, there are a bunch of flawless stock appearing 3s cars all around my area right now

Ondonti

06-01-2012, 05:53 AM

Should be a well known fact that the early parallel rail is a million times easier to install a fuel pressure regulator on. Thats oldschool 3.0 bolton basics. Side note, there are fittings in the junkyard (even one from some random mitsubishi that I took a rail from) that will bolt into the modern non parallel rail.

That is how sixpackdan and Harv the 2nd built their setups.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7230.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7231.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7234.jpg

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7301.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7286.jpg

Sundance 6g72

06-01-2012, 10:32 AM

should i have upgraded to this older rail

Ondonti

06-01-2012, 03:32 PM

I don't know that its an upgrade unless you are having fuel distribution problems from losing pressure in the rails (big injectors robbing fuel so the last injector goes lean)? The old 3.0's only had 27psi fuel pressure or something like that

RoadWarrior222

06-01-2012, 04:12 PM

only '87 had 27psi and then they did a half year change I think.

Ondonti

06-02-2012, 04:02 PM

Never seen an explanation of why they had parallel rails then changed over.

RoadWarrior222

06-02-2012, 04:54 PM

Maybe going from batch to sequential?

Ondonti

06-02-2012, 05:26 PM

That would certainly negate the need for a well designed fuel rail.

MC#4

06-09-2012, 04:50 PM

Still searching for an old style rail, well not so much searching as waiting for one to fall in my lap. Anyone have a line on one? Junkyards are pretty bare around here and my work schedule makes it a real pita to do a proper search.

I did get some racing in last night, the track was packed so I only got 4 passes in. Nothing really new to report, still running mid 15's. For some reason, the announcer kept saying I was running a turbo 3.0 although it was the first time I ever raced at this track and I didn't even write any info on the tech card. My launches were super weak sauce, only cutting 2.3 60 foots. It was nice to get it out again though, been over 2 months.

1st pass http://contour.com/stories/numidia-1--3 15.566

2nd pass http://contour.com/stories/numidia-2 (stayed in third just to see) 15.566 (Staging guy was really hung up on me strapping my helmet on :confused:)

3rd pass 15.555 (dialed 15.55)

4th pass 15.455 (weather started cooling off and broke out on race #2)

Decided not to spray, so these were all NA passes.

Force Fed Mopar

06-09-2012, 06:59 PM

I think I have an old style rail laying around, I'll check and let you know.

Ondonti

06-09-2012, 08:26 PM

Getting out there is a luxury. I had to watch today (first time even watching in almost 2 years) and I wouldn't even mind running 16's!

It was honda tech day and the funny thing is that nobody really cares who is mildly fast, they just like seeing underdogs win.
I have some fuel rails in a bucket but I think they are all random stuff (chrysler 3.3L, various mitsu 6g72, etc). I had been trying to use some other style of rail and I had a yard that would let me have junky stuff for cheap. I thought the 3.3 rails were cool because they have a huge feed line but I didn't even know if they lined up when I took them :P

Worst case senario, look for a fitting in the junk yard that bolts in place of that regulator. I know one of the mitsu 3.0's (not sure if its the variable intake or non variable intake diamante, I think its the non variable, same engine as pictured in the other thread here where Mdoe8 is swapping a 12 valve into their 3000gt. Has a fitting that just requires you slotting the bolt holes and it will fit in.