Major Clutch Problems

[audiomaninc]

Anybody want to speculate on whats wrong with my car? Here's the basic setup:

1987 Daytona Shelby Z
2.5l .020 over balanced bottom end with forged Wiseco pistons
stock swirl head with PT lifters
ported upper and lower 2 piece intake
T3 turbo with T04B Super S trim compressor 16psi
A555 transmission with Turbos Unleashed Stage 4 6 puck 232mm disk and purple pressure plate

The car's got maybe 5000 miles on it since the build, and it's been sitting for the past 4 months because of what I assume to be some sort of clutch failure. It's never been to a racetrack by the way, and never had slicks bolted on. I've done some "spirited driving" in it, but always granny shifted it. While driving on the highway one day, cruising in 5th gear, I attempted to downshift as I approached the exit. The car wouldn't downshift into 4th, so I slowed to a stop in neutral, and checked the pedal, and the cables underhood. All looked fine, so I started the car, and it shifted fine. More or less this problem got progressively worse over the next day, sometimes the car wouldn't come out of gear with the clutch pressed in, and even in neutral, pressing the clutch pedal down generates a horrible sound. It's as though the clutch wont disengage. I assumed it was the "heavy duty throwout bearing" that had failed, so I bought a new one from TU. Now I read in another thread that the TU clutch disks are coming apart, so I'm a bit worried that's what it is. I suppose it could be something else in the tranny altogether, but an inspection of the fluid shows zero metal filings or anything that would indicate a problem. Also, in neutral with the car running, there's no noise from the tranny, and with the engine not running, the shifter will engage every gear with no problems. I'm hopefully going to be able to take it apart on Sunday to find out what's broken. Anybody have any ideas?

[Force Fed Mopar]

I just broke 3-4 shift fork in my A520, shifted to third and the shifter moved into it but then jammed there, trans was in neutral. Finally jerked it around enough to get it unstuck and into 2nd, drove home using 2nd and 5th. Pulled the shift tower off and found the 3-4 shift fork (the middle one) was broke.

I think it happened last time I was at the track, it worked fine all night under hard shifting, but when I left, it was kicking 3rd out on the 3rd to 4th downshift. Upshifts it worked fine. I tightened up my crossover shift cable ball on the trans lever and reset the shifter and it worked fine again for a week, then started kicking 3rd out again. Then the next day it broke.

[BadAssPerformance]

Could be a stretched clutch cable. Sometimes they stretch and it is difficult to see.

[audiomaninc]

I thought the clutch cable or auto adjuster myself. Then I took apart the clutch pedal and drilled holes through it, and installed a bolt to eliminate the adjuster,and make it a manual adjustment deal. The problem seemed to go away for an hour, but came right back with a vengeance!

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------

if the cable stretched, would that lead to an intermittent problem??

[135sohc]

Does it grind going into reverse ?

I have had cables stretch and cause all sorts of fun problems... To the point that I consider them a normal replacement item when doing a clutch replacement.

[audiomaninc]

it grinds in every gear (if it'll go in at all), forward and reverse.

[BadAssPerformance]

I thought the clutch cable or auto adjuster myself. Then I took apart the clutch pedal and drilled holes through it, and installed a bolt to eliminate the adjuster,and make it a manual adjustment deal. The problem seemed to go away for an hour, but came right back with a vengeance!

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------

if the cable stretched, would that lead to an intermittent problem??

The adjuster will take up a clutch wear amounts, less than a few mm total.

If you made it solid mounted and it worked then didnt, my vote is the clutch cable. Once they yield, they are done and will continue to stretch. Look at the attachment on the strut tower and see if the plastic sheath is crushed. might be easier to see if you have a friend push the clutch pedal while you look. 25 year old plastic with a zillion clutch cycles on it probably couldn't hurt to be replaced, plus a heavier than stock clutch added to the equation. The replacements I've gotten from NAPA have a metal cored sheath and are MUCH stronger

[audiomaninc]

Great! I'll pick up a replacement ASAP. I really don't want to pull this transmission if I don't have to


The adjuster will take up a clutch wear amounts, less than a few mm total.

If you made it solid mounted and it worked then didnt, my vote is the clutch cable. Once they yield, they are done and will continue to stretch. Look at the attachment on the strut tower and see if the plastic sheath is crushed. might be easier to see if you have a friend push the clutch pedal while you look. 25 year old plastic with a zillion clutch cycles on it probably couldn't hurt to be replaced, plus a heavier than stock clutch added to the equation. The replacements I've gotten from NAPA have a metal cored sheath and are MUCH stronger

[audiomaninc]

looks like a 4 day wait for NAPA. We'll revisit the problem when the cable comes in.

[audiomaninc]

Put the new clutch cable in today, and to my dismay, it's no better :(
I'll post a video of the god awful sounds it's making once it's uploaded to YouTube.

[BadAssPerformance]

Bummer... Did you put the self-adjuster back in as well?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Shift fork...

[audiomaninc]

Bummer... Did you put the self-adjuster back in as well?
Indeed I did. When I can get it into gear, it'll drive fine with no noises at all, it's just the getting it into gear part that's screwed. Looks like I'll be taking it apart on Sunday hopefully

---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 AM ----------


http://youtu.be/do43GsoIf9w

It's pretty hard to hear, I took the video with my phone. I promise it sounds much worse in person.

---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 AM ----------


Shift fork...
If it is, is it something fixable, or will I need to procure a new tranny?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Shift fork is fixable, just have to find one and replace it. Can't really hear the sound very well in the vid, should have someone vid from outside or under the hood. Can't tell if it's a clanging or grinding noise. But, I do know mine didn't really make any horrible noises, just wouldn't go in or out of gear properly, shifter would get jammed in one spot. You seem to be able to move the shifter fine, so you may have bigger problems.

[audiomaninc]

yeah, it shifts in and out of gear fine without the engine running, and doesn't make any noises unless the clutch pedal is depressed. It's definitely a grinding noise. I'm hoping it's the TO bearing that took a shat, and not the clutch or pressure plate. I'm inclined to believe the clutch/PP is fine because when the car's in gear, and it's driving, it's fine. There are no noises whatsoever. It's only when the pedal is depressed that I have issues.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Ahh, I thought you said you put a clutch in it already, but you said cable :) Does it make noise with the clutch pushed in, or when it's out?

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah, could be TO bearing...

[audiomaninc]

Ahh, I thought you said you put a clutch in it already, but you said cable :) Does it make noise with the clutch pushed in, or when it's out?

It's got the TU stage 4 with the large disc option right now. It's been in there about 5000 miles. The noise is ONLY when the clutch pedal is pushed in, it's silent as could be with the clutch not pushed in.

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------


Yeah, could be TO bearing...

I hope it's that simple, I have a spare from TU waiting to go in if that's the case.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yeah probably the TOB died, if it was a trans bearing it would be noisy when the clutch was not pushed in. Did you not put a new one in when you did the clutch? Most clutch kits come w/ a new one, not sure if TU sells clutches in kit form or in separate pieces.

[turbovanman²]

My guess is the hub springs came out jamming the PP, hence why it doesn't work running but works when the engine is off.

[Force Fed Mopar]

That's possible too.

[audiomaninc]

That's possible too.

Lord I hope not. I hate buying *good quality parts* only to have them die on me. It makes me wonder why I spend the extra money in the first place. As for the TO bearing. I installed the bearing the clutch kit came with, a "heavy duty" one. Although, if I remember right, it doesn't look anything like the "heavy duty" TO bearing I bought from TU separate from the kit.

[turbovanman²]

Lord I hope not. I hate buying *good quality parts* only to have them die on me. It makes me wonder why I spend the extra money in the first place. As for the TO bearing. I installed the bearing the clutch kit came with, a "heavy duty" one. Although, if I remember right, it doesn't look anything like the "heavy duty" TO bearing I bought from TU separate from the kit.

Shitt happens, not everything can be 100% in life, :p

[Force Fed Mopar]

Shitt happens, not everything can be 100% in life, :p

Yeah, but high dollar clutches shouldn't die in 5k. If there is a problem with it though, Chris should make it right. Just make sure you have all the documentation for it.

[GLHNSLHT2]

sounds like disc is coming apart

[turbovanman²]

Yeah, but high dollar clutches shouldn't die in 5k. If there is a problem with it though, Chris should make it right. Just make sure you have all the documentation for it.

Your right but again, shitt happens. Nothing in life is 100%, IE you buy a car its fine, your friend buy's the same car its a lemon, I could go on but I hope you get the picture.

If the plate came apart, Chris will take care of it.

[Mopar318]

My TU clutch came with a new TOB, as did every performance clutch kit I have bought. I agree that sounds like a throw out bearing type noise, but could be a very warped flywheel or maybe some loose bolts. That sounds nastier than most TOB noise.

[jl93sundance]

Sounds nearly identical to what happened to me (clutch disc coming apart), Can you shut the car off, put it in gear and pull out?, and are you pretty much locked into gear when youre driving once you try to shift?

[audiomaninc]

Sounds nearly identical to what happened to me (clutch disc coming apart), Can you shut the car off, put it in gear and pull out?, and are you pretty much locked into gear when youre driving once you try to shift?

exactly

[Force Fed Mopar]

Your right but again, shitt happens. Nothing in life is 100%, IE you buy a car its fine, your friend buy's the same car its a lemon, I could go on but I hope you get the picture.

If the plate came apart, Chris will take care of it.

Yeah I know what you're saying. We're on the same page :)

[audiomaninc]

Looks like the TO bearing is just fine :(

---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/221/clutchin.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/clutchin.jpg/)

[turbovanman²]

I hate being right, lol. :( Looks like they were ready to come out. You also had previous or current T/O bearing issues as the fingers are almost worn thru, :(



Yeah I know what you're saying. We're on the same page :)

How can you say that? Your saying the opposite to what I've said. :confused:

[audiomaninc]

One of the springs was completely out laying between the PP and discI don't understand what went wrong. The flywheel is clean as could be, and the TO bearing *looks* good as new. The input shaft has zero play in it. I'm worried about just putting a new disc in and having the same thing happen again. I don't see what could have caused the damage to the metal around the springs. Nothing was rubbing there, and the PP surface looks clean. Maybe the one spring coming out and rattling around in there could have caused the rest of the damage. Is it possible that the spring was lodged between the fingers on the PP and the disc, causing the wear on the fingers? Is the PP reusable, or junk now?

[turbovanman²]

One of the springs was completely out laying between the PP and discI don't understand what went wrong. The flywheel is clean as could be, and the TO bearing *looks* good as new. The input shaft has zero play in it. I'm worried about just putting a new disc in and having the same thing happen again. I don't see what could have caused the damage to the metal around the springs. Nothing was rubbing there, and the PP surface looks clean. Maybe the one spring coming out and rattling around in there could have caused the rest of the damage. Is it possible that the spring was lodged between the fingers on the PP and the disc, causing the wear on the fingers? Is the PP reusable, or junk now?

The springs look like they've been vibrating and simply "cut" thru the metal. The PP is done, the fingers are almost worn thru, if you put it back in, it won't last very long. Its possible the adjustment was incorrect on the freeplay and kept constant pressure on the T/O bearing causing the wear, or bad T/O bearing or maybe you keep your foot or ? on the clutch pedal? How freely does the T/O bearing spin?

[audiomaninc]

The springs look like they've been vibrating and simply "cut" thru the metal. The PP is done, the fingers are almost worn thru, if you put it back in, it won't last very long. Its possible the adjustment was incorrect on the freeplay and kept constant pressure on the T/O bearing causing the wear, or bad T/O bearing or maybe you keep your foot or ? on the clutch pedal? How freely does the T/O bearing spin?

It spins just fine. There's no evidence of wear on it, other than where it was contacting the PP fingers. I think the damage to that could have occurred when I replaced the clutch cable, but didn't reinstall the self adjuster. I started the car, and pressed the clutch pedal, which was very hard to push (obviously), and I realized that I forgot to reinstall the self adjuster. The bearing must have been pressing against the fingers very hard at that point. It couldn't have been more than 10 seconds though before I realized my folly.

[turbovanman²]

It spins just fine. There's no evidence of wear on it, other than where it was contacting the PP fingers. I think the damage to that could have occurred when I replaced the clutch cable, but didn't reinstall the self adjuster. I started the car, and pressed the clutch pedal, which was very hard to push (obviously), and I realized that I forgot to reinstall the self adjuster. The bearing must have been pressing against the fingers very hard at that point. It couldn't have been more than 10 seconds though before I realized my folly.

That kind of wear takes time/mileage, not 10 secs, unless the T/O is seized.

If you had brought me that car, no info and I'd pulled that out, I'd swear that had a ton of mileage and been in there for years.

[tryingbe]

Call TU for support.

[audiomaninc]

That kind of wear takes time/mileage, not 10 secs, unless the T/O is seized.

If you had brought me that car, no info and I'd pulled that out, I'd swear that had a ton of mileage and been in there for years.

The car's been together for about a year and a half, but multiple turbo issues have kept it parked most of the time. The odometer gear's busted, so I can't be exact, but I can't imagine it's got even 5000 miles on it. It's been sitting with this current problem since the first weekend in July.

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------


Call TU for support.

I'm going to call first thing in the morning. The car's sitting on my buddy's lift torn apart for the time being. I need to get it back together ASAP.

[Force Fed Mopar]

How can you say that? Your saying the opposite to what I've said. :confused:

OMG Simon, I don't know if I'm driving you crazy today, or vice versa :nuts:Yes, ---- happens. No a new purple plate clutch should not come apart with that low of mileage on it and very little if any track use. Which means that yes, Chris should take care of this w/ no problems, and I'm sure he will.

How is this any different from what you're saying?

Why does it make any difference to either of us at this point? LOL

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------


The car's been together for about a year and a half, but multiple turbo issues have kept it parked most of the time. The odometer gear's busted, so I can't be exact, but I can't imagine it's got even 5000 miles on it. It's been sitting with this current problem since the first weekend in July.

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------



I'm going to call first thing in the morning. The car's sitting on my buddy's lift torn apart for the time being. I need to get it back together ASAP.

Make sure you have receipts and purchase dates on hand.

[onerippinturbo2]

glad to see you found the problem and dont need a tranny.

[turbovanman²]

OMG Simon, I don't know if I'm driving you crazy today, or vice versa :nuts:Yes, ---- happens. No a new purple plate clutch should not come apart with that low of mileage on it and very little if any track use. Which means that yes, Chris should take care of this w/ no problems, and I'm sure he will.

How is this any different from what you're saying?

Why does it make any difference to either of us at this point? LOL.


Nevermind, you are driving me nuts, ;) You are sorta agreeing with me but not really, lol.

[135sohc]

Just to throw this out there. Are you using the stock flywheel bolts or the ARP bolt ?

[audiomaninc]

glad to see you found the problem and dont need a tranny.

You and me both! It could be worse.

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------


Just to throw this out there. Are you using the stock flywheel bolts or the ARP bolt ?

Stock Mopar.

[BadAssPerformance]

Ouch! Glad you found it

[audiomaninc]

Me too! I just wish there was a clear reason to why this happened. If there is, I sure can't figure it out. I spoke with Chris at TU this afternoon. He's having me send the clutch to the manufacturer to figure out what could have caused the failure. This will keep me from putting another one in, only to have the same thing happen in a couple months. He assured me that once we figure out the problem, he'll do his best to get me back on the road quickly. It's really nice to know that when you spend money at TU, it's not just going into someone's bank account. It's going to support a business that really supports this community.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Glad he's helping you out quickly with it! Hopefully they can figure it out and get you back boosting soon.

[audiomaninc]

Glad he's helping you out quickly with it! Hopefully they can figure it out and get you back boosting soon.

You and me both! This car's been "together" since last October, but it's only been driven a handful of miles because of the various issues I've had with it (most thanks to the previous owner). I haven't even been able to enjoy it! Now it's gonna have to sit for another winter. Maybe next year I can get it to the track, or at least to a cruise in or 2! :nod:

[Chris W]

Our clutch manufacturer received the clutch and has determined what caused the failure.

It appeared to them that the vehicle had been driven with too much preload on the throw out bearing (TOB). Supporting evidence is seen in the photos where the fingers of the pressure plate diaphragm are worn excessively and there were also signs of TOB grease on the pressure plate. When a clutch cable is not fully released the TOB is constantly spinning and overheats. The grease inside the bearing will liquefy and eventually make it's way out and on to the Pressure Plate cover. Less grease in the TOB increases friction/drag which slows down the bearing causing the pressure plate diaphragm fingers to be worn down. Also, because of the constant pre-load on the fingers the clutch was never fully engaged. In this situation the disk is constantly slipping which pre-maturely wears the entire clutch. Eventually the slippage will cause the hub to violently oscillate to the point where the springs breach the disk casing.

Too much preload could be caused by using the incorrect Clutch release cable, driving with your foot resting on the clutch pedal, improper clutch cable adjustment or a burr/ other metal deformation on the TOB sleeve that prevents it from fully retracting.

Please contact us directly so we can assist you in getting back on the road as soon as possible. More importantly, we will suggest a few corrective actions to prevent a reoccurrence of the failure.


Chris-TU

[Force Fed Mopar]

The clutch cable is auto-adjusted on these cars, so that should rule that out. Messed up input shaft collar is a possibility.

[audiomaninc]

I just got my new clutch from Turbos Unleashed and have to praise the customer service skills of Chris over there. Often times when buying parts for a car that's less than stock, we worry about what happens if something breaks. Many places like to coin the phrase "no warranty on race parts". Not the case with Turbos Unleashed. Chris went out of his way to help figure out why this clutch failed, and get a new one to me quickly so I can get this car back on the road. He also gave me a smoking deal on my new clutch so my wallet doesn't hurt too bad! All in all, it was reassuring to be taken care of with this problem and not just hung out to dry. Turbos Unleashed is an asset to this community and will be my go to place for go fast parts in the future. Thanks Chris!

[turbovanman²]

That's great news.

Did you figure out the problem?

[Force Fed Mopar]

That's great news.

Did you figure out the problem?

x2, what was the cause of the failure?

[AZTurbo]

I had an issue like this once. R&R'd my clutch, reinstalled the trans and the new clutch was obviously slipping (steep driveway gave it away). I immediately checked the cable. I had used a jack to preload the throw-out lever to help make re-install easier, but didn't completely release cable at the pedal. The auto-adjust had taken up and the slack and preloaded the throw-out.

[audiomaninc]

since I wasn't inside the transmission during the failure it can't be 100% determined the cause, but all signs lead to the throwout bearing riding on the PP causing excess heat. I've installed a new cable, and Polybushings retainer with a new clip. I'll also be installing a new auto adjuster, since the one in the car is missing some teeth. The clutch should be going in this weekend, then the car will be sitting at the body shop for the winter getting painted, and hopefully I'll be able to make it to SDAC next year!

[dwh4784]

I had this same thing happen to me yesterday. I have no time to tear into a transmission so I had it towed to my mechanic today. I was driving down the highway and went to downshift to start slowing down as I got into town, put in clutch, couldn't get it to go into 4th, heard a pop (like clutch cable snapping), and lost all feel in the clutch pedal. It will not disengage and though I was able to get it back into 5th and limp into town and into a parking lot using 1st and 2nd in traffic (what fun!!) I couldn't get into any other gears. The shifter linkage feels off also, although it looks fine. Previously it was nice and tight (after installing polybushings) but recently was getting some side to side play and now it feels like it's binding up. The clutch cable is intact and moves the actuator arm just fine, but there is no resistance.

I've only owned this car for two years and it came with a stack of repair receipts and one of them was for a clutch. I have always noticed that the throwout bearing is noisy when in neutral with the clutch out but never thought much of it until now after reading this thread. Seems like it might have been adjusted wrong causing it to fail prematurely. I'll be sure to ask the mechanic to watch for this.

[GLHNSLHT2]

is it sitting outside of my shop?

[dwh4784]

No, I need it on the road before 2014.....;)

[GLHNSLHT2]

Hey you'd be amazed how fast I work with parts and cash supplied :)

[dwh4784]

Too bad it's my only car at the moment or we could make a weekend job out of it, I need it back ASAP though.

[turbovanman²]

I've only owned this car for two years and it came with a stack of repair receipts and one of them was for a clutch. I have always noticed that the throwout bearing is noisy when in neutral with the clutch out but never thought much of it until now after reading this thread. Seems like it might have been adjusted wrong causing it to fail prematurely. I'll be sure to ask the mechanic to watch for this.

Most likely the input shaft bearing, a noisey T/O has more noise when the pedal is pushed in and doesn't get quieter.

[dwh4784]

And isn't that the part that is nearly impossible to find?

[turbovanman²]

And isn't that the part that is nearly impossible to find?

Nope, that's easy.

[dwh4784]

Here was the verdict on mine...
36560

Edit: hopefully it isn't so dark on normal monitors, mine sux.

[GLHNSLHT2]

And the TOB was f'd as well, new clutch and new TOB and no more noises :)

[turbovanman²]

Damn, lol, that's awesome, :nod:

[Force Fed Mopar]

That's the worst failure I've ever seen :eek: I'm stealing that pic for our broken parts thread on BM :nod: Parts store clutch?

[dwh4784]

The brand on the PP was Sachs, couldn't really make out anything on the disc.