T-SMEC/SBEC boost control

[cordes]

I thought I would start a thread so that we can have a better understanding of how this all works. Here are my assumptions thus far. Someone correct me if I'm off.



It's 89' 2.5 TI style boost control. Thus you need the WG to be hooked up to the line which is blocked off when the solenoid is energized. The vac source should be hooked up to either of the other two barbs, and the other is vented to atmosphere through a filter.

I know for sure that if you have an 89' TII car you'll need to hook the WG up to the bottom port of the WG solenoid and the vac source to one of the other two barbs.

The more WG DC, the more boost you get.

Your boost will be limited by the target look up table which produces the lowest value given the current time, temp, rpm, etc.

If you don't select a switch for the high boost function, your low boost value will be the maximum allowed unless one of the other boost tables has a lower value.

[zin]

For me, it is easier to visualize if the ports are labeled as Common, Normally Open and Normally Closed.

I'm unclear as to what is what with regards to top, side and bottom, but it would seem that the 89 T1 style has the Wastegate "can" connected to the "Normally Open" port, which means the path through the solenoid is open/connected when the solenoid is off. Which should limit boost to whatever the "can" is set to and act as a kind of fail-safe.

The remaining port would be connected to atmosphere and thus vent boost/vacuum whenever the solenoid is "on"... The more "on time" the more boost over baseline "can" setting is achieved due to the pressure to open the actuator/can being bled away...

Perhaps this would be an appropriate place for someone to explain to me the functionality of the colored "restrictors" seen in the factory vacuum hoses... I'll guess that they are there to limit the amount of boost bled off by the WG control solenoid? Seems like the solenoid would do pretty much the same thing, but maybe they allow too much to bleed away?

Mike

[ShelGame]

That is all correct, Cordes.

One thing to add - I added a table for the WGDC to T-SMEC that will set the DC to 100% when the boost is below target. This is to help spool the turbo by reducing the signal to the WGA as much as possible to keep it from opening until the boost is close to target.

There is also a WG DC Adjustment from RPM (stock) that was not used by Chrysler much. This table can be used to increase/decrease the DC at a specific RPM to help spool at that RPM.

[zin]

That is all correct.

One thing to add - I added a table for the WGDC to T-SMEC that will set the DC to 100% when the boost is below target. This is to help spool the turbo by reducing the signal to the WGA as much as possible to keep it from opening until the boost is close to target.

There is also a WG DC Adjustment from RPM (stock) that was not used by Chrysler much. This table can be used to increase/decrease the DC at a specific RPM to help spool at that RPM.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is there a down-side to your method, or an up-side to Chrysler's? I could see the factory using it to tweak a laggy rpm, but if the goal is to get the power "now", keeping the wastegate closed (100% DC) would be the way to go... Can't really think of a situation that NOT going 100% would be better... I'm assuming there is a decay rate as the delta P is approached so as to smooth the transition and not "overshoot" the target boost...

Thanks!

Mike

[ShelGame]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is there a down-side to your method, or an up-side to Chrysler's? I could see the factory using it to tweak a laggy rpm, but if the goal is to get the power "now", keeping the wastegate closed (100% DC) would be the way to go... Can't really think of a situation that NOT going 100% would be better... I'm assuming there is a decay rate as the delta P is approached so as to smooth the transition and not "overshoot" the target boost...

Thanks!

Mike

That's the way I set the table up, yes.

I think Chrysler was probably more concerned with overshoot and keeping the boost in control than with lag. They went to the VNT and samll Mitsu turbos to reduce lag...

[cordes]

Thanks for the feedback Rob. I'll poke around in there a bit more. This is the first time I've thought about computer controlled boost.

[ShelGame]

Thanks for the feedback Rob. I'll poke around in there a bit more. This is the first time I've thought about computer controlled boost.

Pretty much the tables that are important, are mentioned above. Everything else you see in the boost control is really related to the adaptives (they work similar to the fuel adaptives).

Except when you get into the SBEC, TIV, TIII and SBECII boost control. They added a boost error correction and some WGDC adjustments due to the boost error. Kind of does what my added table does and more, but in a much more complicated way.

Also, the SBEC and later have an additional boost target table from RPM that is only used when knocking. So, if you see a 2nd boost from RPM table that is much lower than the first, that's what it is. I think I removed that table from T-SMEC.

[Force Fed Mopar]

There is also a WG DC Adjustment from RPM (stock) that was not used by Chrysler much. This table can be used to increase/decrease the DC at a specific RPM to help spool at that RPM.

This could be used to combat boost spiking at initial spool up, correct? I've been looking at it in T-LM trying to figure out how/what it was used for, I think you just enlightened me ;)

---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------


Thanks for the feedback Rob. I'll poke around in there a bit more. This is the first time I've thought about computer controlled boost.

I love my computer boost. 10 psi in normal driving, full boost when I nail it. Much better than trying to control it w/ your right foot all the time.

[Force Fed Mopar]

So I'm working on this in the Lebaron now. Hooked up the wastegate solenoid like it says to in the diagram under the hood, set all my boost targets to 16psi. Only getting 5 psi. Is this the correct way to hook up the solenoid for the Turbonator boost control to work properly?

40252

[ShelGame]

So I'm working on this in the Lebaron now. Hooked up the wastegate solenoid like it says to in the diagram under the hood, set all my boost targets to 16psi. Only getting 5 psi. Is this the correct way to hook up the solenoid for the Turbonator boost control to work properly?

40252

Maybe. Which Turbonator? T/SMEC?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Maybe. Which Turbonator? T/SMEC?

Yeah T-SMEC, in my '89 Lebaron Turbo GTC. Trying to do away with my flaky g-valve.

[ShelGame]

Yeah T-SMEC, in my '89 Lebaron Turbo GTC. Trying to do away with my flaky g-valve.

I put the T2 type boost control into a test version of T/SMEC... I think that's the right plumbing for the T2 boost control. But the regular version of T/SMEC uses the T1 style boost control and that plumbing is different.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Ah yeah, I forgot GTC's were T2 from the factory. I'll look up T1 routing...

[GLHNSLHT2]

just use the T2 boost control in Tsmec

[Force Fed Mopar]

Is it in Turbonator already and working? I thought he said it was in a test cal?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Anyway, my car has the older solenoids, as shown in this '88 diagram:

40262

'89 T1 shows the newer solenoids:

40263

If I hook up my older solenoid like it shows in the '88 diagram, does it work the same as the newer solenoid does? I'm unsure if the path between the WGA port and bleed port on the newer solenoid is normally open or not.

Or asked another way, do both '88 and '89 use the same T1 boost control?

Another question, is the orifice really necessary? What is it's purpose?

[ShelGame]

Is it in Turbonator already and working? I thought he said it was in a test cal?

Test cal, but it's posted in the last page or 2 of the T/SMEC thread, I think. If it's not, I'll put it up later. I will (hopefully) be running my car on it on Tues at SDAC.

[Force Fed Mopar]

So I hooked it up like the '88 diagram, and it still gave me 5-8 psi. So I guess I need to hook it into the bottom port.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well that didn't change anything either. So I switched it back to the T2 setup and went to V18.1 and checked T2 boost control. Not really getting any more boost but it does look like it's trying to work, needle bounces as it spools. I'm going to put the g-valve back on to verify I can get more, if so I'm going to mess with the WOT DC.

[bakes]

are the solenoids working/ sealing?

[ShelGame]

Well that didn't change anything either. So I switched it back to the T2 setup and went to V18.1 and checked T2 boost control. Not really getting any more boost but it does look like it's trying to work, needle bounces as it spools. I'm going to put the g-valve back on to verify I can get more, if so I'm going to mess with the WOT DC.

I may have the wrong duty cycle table in there. Compare the duty cycle table from an LM cal and copy it if it's not even close to being the same...

[Force Fed Mopar]

are the solenoids working/ sealing?

Not sure yet, will find out.


I may have the wrong duty cycle table in there. Compare the duty cycle table from an LM cal and copy it if it's not even close to being the same...

I was thinking to copy the DC table from my Shelby Z cal, since the whole top end is off of it. Was gonna ask if the T-LM T2 and the T-SMEC T2 controls were the same, you must have read my mind lol.

[ShelGame]

I was thinking to copy the DC table from my Shelby Z cal, since the whole top end is off of it. Was gonna ask if the T-LM T2 and the T-SMEC T2 controls were the same, you must have read my mind lol.

The boost control isn't exactly the same, but it's the same type, so the base WGDC table should work. In fact, it is almost the same as the actual '89 T2 WGDC table. As soon as SDAC is over (and I can get back to the desk at my day job and relax, lol) I'll post the fixed tables...

[Force Fed Mopar]

I changed it to match my T-LM cal and it still doesn't boost up. I have the g-valve on it now so on the way home I'll find out if I can get more boost with it, if not then I guess I have a wga problem.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well I get plenty of boost off the g-valve. Time to start playing with the boost controls. BTW Rob the T-SMEC T2 WOTDC table was way different than the T-LM table. Also, you can't compare it to any of the other because the name is different. Which I suppose there isn't any real fix for, just thought I'd mention it.

[ShelGame]

OK, there was an error in the T2 boost control call. I fixed that today and confirmed that it works. I'll post v18.1 later, maybe tomorrow. I'll also be adding the T2 boost control to the SBEC code as soon as I can. It's a little more complicated since there will be 3 different boost control schemes. So, I may change how the BC type is selected to make sure it is mutually exlusive.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I think I do have a solenoid problem, I dropped the DCWOT table 20% and it didn't change anything. Maybe my solenoid is dirty, it hasn't been used in a long time.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Checked the solenoid this morning, it is bad, can feel it clicking but it doesn't close. Purge solenoid worked so I swapped them, we'll see if it works on the way home.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Still isn't working. Maybe somebody mixed up the plugs on the solenoids, I'll check that today.

BTW what is the purpose of the 2 different control types? Is the T2 boost control able to hold higher boost levels easier/steadier?

[ShelGame]

Still isn't working. Maybe somebody mixed up the plugs on the solenoids, I'll check that today.

BTW what is the purpose of the 2 different control types? Is the T2 boost control able to hold higher boost levels easier/steadier?

Personally, I think the T1 is better. It has a fail-safe mode so that if the solenoid fails, you get only 7psi boost. Where the T2, if the solenoid fails, you get no boost control at all.

But, it seems that everyone has trouble setting up the T1 BC, so I added the T2 as an option.

Both the T1 and T2 are going ot be limited to about 24psi (I think) with the factory solenoids. Much higher than that and I think you'll get into flow limitations.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Checked my solenoid, it has the right plug hooked up to it (light green wire). I dunno wtf is wrong with it, doesn't matter what I do, I get 8 psi. I scaled the DCWOT table down 20% and it made no difference.

[ShelGame]

Checked my solenoid, it has the right plug hooked up to it (light green wire). I dunno wtf is wrong with it, doesn't matter what I do, I get 8 psi. I scaled the DCWOT table down 20% and it made no difference.

If it's the T2 style, set it to 0. If it still doesn't work, then the plumbing isn't setup right. If it's set to zero, you shoudl have no boost control At 0% DC, the WGA will never see the manifold pressure...

[Force Fed Mopar]

So at 0% the solenoid never comes on right? Should be the same as unhooking the line from the wga?

[ShelGame]

So at 0% the solenoid never comes on right? Should be the same as unhooking the line from the wga?

Right, should be...

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well did that and 5 psi solid at WOT. Gonna try one w/ 100% DC and see if it overboosts. Maybe the table is backwards?

[ShelGame]

Well did that and 5 psi solid at WOT. Gonna try one w/ 100% DC and see if it overboosts. Maybe the table is backwards?

The table isn't backwards, but your WGA plumbing might be. For the T2 boost control, it should be plumbed up manifold-solenoid-WGA, with the solenoid plumbed normally closed. If you have it plumbed at the solenoid normally open, then it would seem like the table is backwards...

[Force Fed Mopar]

This is how I have it plumbed. The solenoid is open if no power is applied to it.

[ShelGame]

This is how I have it plumbed. The solenoid is open if no power is applied to it.

So, with no power, manifold pressure is vented to atmosphere? Or, it's open to the WGA? What about when it's powered? Which way does it flow then?

It should be (for the T2 boost control) that the WGA line is vented to atmosphere when the solenoid is not powered, and then switched to manifold pressure when the solenoid is powered.

[Force Fed Mopar]

That is the way it shows to hook the lines up in the factory T2 diagram. I used a power probe to activate it, not sure if it normally has power or not while running.

I did make a cal w/ 100% dc and still doesn't overboost. Maybe its not activating the T2 boost control? I'll check that I have it checked.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Checked my cal, it does have the box checked for T2 Boost. I changed the T1 DCWOT table to 0% and now it overboosts. So, checking the T2 box is apparently not activating the code.

[ShelGame]

Checked my cal, it does have the box checked for T2 Boost. I changed the T1 DCWOT table to 0% and now it overboosts. So, checking the T2 box is apparently not activating the code.

Are you using the latest .asm? Open it in notepad, scroll down about a hundred lines, and look for the version history. Make sure you're using v18.1 of th .asm.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yeap, 18.1.


Version 18.1
; 06/05/12 - Added T2-type boost control.
; 06/26/12 - Fixed an error in the calling routine for the T2 Boost Control.
; - Fixed the MAP scaling for the T2 boost-control tables
; - Updated the T2 WGDC to match the T2 (or base cal) where appropriate.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Set the T1 DCWOT table to match the one from my Daytona's T-LM cal, and the boost control is working, even with the "T2 Boost Control" box checked.

[ShelGame]

Set the T1 DCWOT table to match the one from my Daytona's T-LM cal, and the boost control is working, even with the "T2 Boost Control" box checked.

OK, lemme look...

[Force Fed Mopar]

Any progress?

I think both my solenoids are junk, I set it to 55% DCWOT for 16 psi and it overboosted hard, 53% is wouldn't boost past 8ish, 54.5% it went to 8, then tried it again and it went to 22psi. I guess I'm gonna try the solenoids off my Daytona, they worked when I parked it last year.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Meanwhile, 3 years later...

I installed newer solenoids to try and get computer boost working again. T-SMEC v19.6-1, T2 boost is not checked. Is this how my solenoid is supposed to be plumbed? Cause I'm only getting 6-7 psi of boost. I did remove the solenoid and check it to be sure it was working, when powered it blocks off the top port, bottom port vents slightly.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Bump, is that the right way to plumb it? Should the upper port be plugged off?

[ShelGame]

Working as you describe, I think the bottom port should be capped.

EDIT: After thinking about it again, I think you're right. Cap the top port. Bottom port should have a filter.

[going4speed]

Man same thing I did! Still no boost control. In for a solution as well.


Meanwhile, 3 years later...

I installed newer solenoids to try and get computer boost working again. T-SMEC v19.6-1, T2 boost is not checked. Is this how my solenoid is supposed to be plumbed? Cause I'm only getting 6-7 psi of boost. I did remove the solenoid and check it to be sure it was working, when powered it blocks off the top port, bottom port vents slightly.

[Force Fed Mopar]

The way I have it in the pic is correct. The restrictor is required, and it must be the the correct location. It has to restrict the pressure going to both the wga and the solenoid. Got it all working today. seems to work fine with the top port open, not sure if capping it would make any difference.

[going4speed]

You got it to work with only one hose hooked up to the middle?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yeap. Starts at a port on the TB, then the restrictor, then a tee to split to the wga and the solenoid.