TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

[MOPAR2YA]

Been working on this for a while. They are going through testing to check wear/geometry etc. Afterwards will get additional lightening etc and a group buy in will be announced. Pricing not set, but should be in the area of the price of replacement hyd lifters.

[Directconnection]

I know of someone else that has been working on these, as well. What's the roller diameter and rocker ratio?

Still cool to see someone else working on products for these cars.

Looking forward to your vendor status :)

[Glmwpg]

subscribed! good luck with the project

[MOPAR2YA]

Ratio is same as stock with a .739 roller.

[bakes]

I think Simon going to have a chubby reading this!!!

[MNmopar]

How far off are these? I need to work on my rockers and lifters and if these aren't too far off, I'll wait and get these!

[turbovanman²]

Boing, lol.

I'd be interested for sure, not sure If I need them as I do have the updated lifters, but the price sounds wicked, :nod:

What about an option to reuse the stock lifter?

Any pics?

[zin]

What about an option to reuse the stock lifter?

Any pics?

I'd suggest using the lifter/lash adjuster from a SOHC Neon engine, they are very close to stock, but (currently) plentiful in the JY, just have to drill a hole in the rocker arm and push them out...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

I'd suggest using the lifter/lash adjuster from a SOHC Neon engine, they are very close to stock, but (currently) plentiful in the JY, just have to drill a hole in the rocker arm and push them out...

Mike

Good idea, :nod:

[Directconnection]

Ratio is same as stock with a .739 roller.

.739 is somewhat close to what the original diameter is. In talks with UltraDyne last year about my cams, we found that a larger diameter wheel would be beneficial in the T-III (like in the step you are taking) but.... if increasing the wheel diameter, then the cam should be ground in accordance. Changing the wheel diameter changes the timing events and ratio. But you might get lucky and it might be a good thing... or a step in the other direction.


I'd suggest using the lifter/lash adjuster from a SOHC Neon engine, they are very close to stock, but (currently) plentiful in the JY, just have to drill a hole in the rocker arm and push them out...

Mike

I already beat you to it last year :p http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?54460-Close-replacement-for-T-III-lifters&highlight=sohc+neaon+lifter+t-iii

If it's not too late Wallace, you probably really should consider using the sohc lifters as they are super close. Not sure what they cost new, though.... But there are actually a LOT of small lifters out there similar to the T-III from what I have seen on other heads.

If I was a betting man... I bet Wallace also has some solid lifter/rockers in the works with the matching cams. But if this is true... then maybe he oughta invest in reproducing T-III VC seals, too.

[glhs0426]

I don't think you will ever have to worry about replacing lifters again with Wallace's design.

[shackwrrr]

I would much rather have mechanical adjusters. No worries, adjustment should last over 60,000 as long as the rockers don't deform. Look at the Suzuki 1.6 motor its mechanical.

[MOPAR2YA]

Steve, I discussed the larger roller with Elgin Cams, he said it would work quite well, doing what you described. It would be like a Stage .25 cam. :D The rockers are mechanical, but I can look into what a hydraulic version would be. I have to admit I dont know much about Neon lifters, would they handle the larger TIII mass? The mechanical set up is set to rev to 10,000 rpm and has a replaceable roller. The prototypes are pretty basic, are in raw aluminum and havent gont on a diet for lightening like the production pieces will, so they look, well, frumpy. We are going to put some miles on them and see if everything checks out. Updates to follow....

[86Shelby]

The mechanical set up...has a replaceable roller. I'm excited; and will start budgeting.

[turbovanman²]

Replaceable roller, that's the best part, :nod:

[rx2mazda]

interested

[Turbo224]

Subscribed!

[J&H Ryan]

In for updates

[440dart]

well whats the scoop

[Directconnection]

well whats the scoop

Takes a while dude! R&D should be more than just a couple weeks on a car, as I'd prefer more like several months. Then, they need to make a final design as I think he said the current ones are a bit rough/crude.

[Reaper1]

Just wanting to see where this goes...

[iTurbo]

Well considering I've had two TIII rocker failures, both of which wiped the lobes right off the cam in addition to destroying the rocker/lifter assembly and getting metal EVERYWHERE in the engine, I would be relieved to see something like this come to market.

I have quite a few TIII rockers in my stash that I would not even use anymore, as the roller pin has walked too far out one end for me to trust. Once that pin walks out either side too far, the pin gets ----eyed, roller seizes, damage ensues, and all so quitely you have no idea anything bad has happened at all until the motor grenades or you pop the valve cover off and happen to see it before that happens.

[Directconnection]

Well considering I've had two TIII rocker failures, both of which wiped the lobes right off the cam in addition to destroying the rocker/lifter assembly and getting metal EVERYWHERE in the engine, I would be relieved to see something like this come to market.

I have quite a few TIII rockers in my stash that I would not even use anymore, as the roller pin has walked too far out one end for me to trust. Once that pin walks out either side too far, the pin gets ----eyed, roller seizes, damage ensues, and all so quitely you have no idea anything bad has happened at all until the motor grenades or you pop the valve cover off and happen to see it before that happens.

I have several like this that you describe, and I am shocked that others are not/were not having these failures. One motor I bought 12 years ago was a running motor (car fire) and I was looking through the rockers a few weeks ago while organizing my stash. One pin was totally out one side of the rocker! Another set I have from the motor I bought last year, and am rebuilding for my car, (actually rebuilt, just waiting) had a few pins worked out a bit, and one totally egged out on one side. Too common....

[MNmopar]

I have several like this that you describe, and I am shocked that others are not/were not having these failures. One motor I bought 12 years ago was a running motor (car fire) and I was looking through the rockers a few weeks ago while organizing my stash. One pin was totally out one side of the rocker! Another set I have from the motor I bought last year, and am rebuilding for my car, (actually rebuilt, just waiting) had a few pins worked out a bit, and one totally egged out on one side. Too common....

Can you post a pic of the issues that you're talking about?

[Directconnection]

Can you post a pic of the issues that you're talking about?

I will try and do so for you tomorrow, ok? (if I forget... feel free to PM me) It is a really common thing... and surprised Jackson has never mentioned this or had any issues.

It is funny, on all my 8v stuff I've done in the past, never had I really inspected any of the roller rockers before. I'd look over lobe wear, and take a glimpse at the wheels, and that was it. Never worried about pins walking out....

[Aries_Turbo]

is this a result of the crazy valve spring rate?

would the raised retainers prevent this?

Brian

[Directconnection]

is this a result of the crazy valve spring rate?

would the raised retainers prevent this?

Brian

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt....

But I'm skeptical still about the raised installed heights, especially so if planning to run 30+psi boost.

The larger diameter wheel keeps roller rpms down, which would help the needle bearings/pins and also... help possible flaking from the overly excessive "skating" as they were telling me at ultradyne/Bullet cams, too (which -could- be the cause of lobe flaking) So if the larger diameter wheel doesn't have any negative effects (ie:valve timing changes via different profile) then it may help. But, he's going with totally new wheels/rollers anyways.

[Lotashelbys]

It is a really common thing... and surprised Jackson has never mentioned this or had any issues.

.

I have had this issue on 2 engines I have bought over the years. When I put engines together or first get an engine that I will be running I check every roller pin and pin punch it 3 times 120 degrees from each other if one is starting to move. I should of mentioned this before i guess. It is a terrible thing to have happen as usually it takes the entire lobe out.....

[turbovanman²]

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt....

But I'm skeptical still about the raised installed heights, especially so if planning to run 30+psi boost.

The larger diameter wheel keeps roller rpms down, which would help the needle bearings/pins and also... help possible flaking from the overly excessive "skating" as they were telling me at ultradyne/Bullet cams, too (which -could- be the cause of lobe flaking) So if the larger diameter wheel doesn't have any negative effects (ie:valve timing changes via different profile) then it may help. But, he's going with totally new wheels/rollers anyways.

We don't need crazy spring pressures, why are you resisting?

I run low rates and have no issues with valve float, etc. Jackson runs a lower rate on his cars, no problems too.

[Directconnection]

We don't need crazy spring pressures, why are you resisting?

I run low rates and have no issues with valve float, etc. Jackson runs a lower rate on his cars, no problems too.

Not to be harsh, but because I like you and we are friends... that maybe I can get away with saying it, but your motor is far from being "Par Excellence" :) (I know... you can crap on me for not having my car running yet.. hehe)

Anyways, it's not just about having enough/not enough spring pressures and controlling valve float that you can actually hear making it sound like a stutter box, it's much more than just that. I talked with 2 Chrysler engineers about this and also the head honcho at Ultradyne within the past year. The pressures are not "crazy high" ...but a bit higher than they should be. (3.5 Intrepids have lobe flaking as well... attributed to "crazy high" valve spring pressures too?) So with that said, I'll keep my opinion to myself. I may be wrong, but it's my prerogative.

Anyways, here's a few pix of the failing pins me, iturbo, and Jackson are talking about. Two rockers have pins that really worked all the way out on one side, and I have a slew of others like in the other picture where they just started and you can see the "peened" end has now slid fully into the bore, so the flared outer ends aren't capturing the rocker anymore. (ie: nothing stopping them from going further....)

[Lotashelbys]

I always thought of making a spring steel "brace" that held the pin in place. That way it could only get as far as being flush with the rocker on either end....

[Directconnection]

I always thought of making a spring steel "brace" that held the pin in place. That way it could only get as far as being flush with the rocker on either end....

Yeah, I had some odd ideas myself... but one thing that kept reminding me: if the pins are walking out, is it because the rollers and pin surfaces are getting worn? If so, then eventually nothing would stop them unless the wheel itself seized.

Jackson, I've never bothered to press a few out just to look at them, but have you? And... how do the pins look? Flat spots or pitting/galling or perfectly smooth?

[Lotashelbys]

I have never completely pressed one out.

In order for them to walk out one of the three surfaces have to be no longer parallel with each other......

[86Shelby]

Wallace, if you're looking for any more guiney pigs I'll be happy to run them in my car until the snow flies and the car is put away.



Jackson, I've never bothered to press a few out just to look at them, but have you? And... how do the pins look? Flat spots or pitting/galling or perfectly smooth?


I pressed out several when I had replacement pins made to use the 8V rollers. Some had the pins just starting to walk, but were not as far along as the ones you posted. The pins themselves looked fine, no unusual wear or anything alarming. One thing to keep in mind if/when you press any out is that the rollers will deform the peen on the end that keeps the pins in place and will in turn gouge the pin bore on the side you remove them from. It's not terrible gouging, but enough that a proper sized pin will not spin as freely in that bore as the other. Here's two rockers that I have sitting around that the pins were pressed out of.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/86Shelby/IMG_20111024_231126.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/86Shelby/IMG_20111024_231103.jpg

[zin]

Ok, so,after seeing these pictures, it seems it is the AL that the pins go through that is deforming ... perhaps a fix for this would be to bush the arm and maybe allow the axle /pin to float like a piston pin? You'd have to use a means of retaining them, much like Jackson suggested, or do a much better job of preening them in place. Another way might be to make a new axle in two pieces like a bolt and a "nutsert"..., though you'd still need to bush any deformed holes.

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Not to be harsh, but because I like you and we are friends... that maybe I can get away with saying it, but your motor is far from being "Par Excellence" :) (I know... you can crap on me for not having my car running yet.. hehe)

Anyways, it's not just about having enough/not enough spring pressures and controlling valve float that you can actually hear making it sound like a stutter box, it's much more than just that. I talked with 2 Chrysler engineers about this and also the head honcho at Ultradyne within the past year. The pressures are not "crazy high" ...but a bit higher than they should be. (3.5 Intrepids have lobe flaking as well... attributed to "crazy high" valve spring pressures too?) So with that said, I'll keep my opinion to myself. I may be wrong, but it's my prerogative.

Anyways, here's a few pix of the failing pins me, iturbo, and Jackson are talking about. Two rockers have pins that really worked all the way out on one side, and I have a slew of others like in the other picture where they just started and you can see the "peened" end has now slid fully into the bore, so the flared outer ends aren't capturing the rocker anymore. (ie: nothing stopping them from going further....)

Say it all you want, lol, but the engine runs just fine, and it is running, vs yours, :eyebrows: :nod:

I am not the only one that agree's the spring pressures are too high, maybe chat with 5 digits as he also agrees.

Anyhow, back to our scheduled programming.

[rx2mazda]

Say it all you want, lol, but the engine runs just fine

Says the Tony Romo of TM............:drum:

[rx2mazda]

BTW, this sucks! I just changed out my VC gaskets and I knew not of this problem. Now I'm wondering if I should go back and check this. Damn

[turbovanman²]

Says the Tony Romo of TM............:drum:

Tony Romo?

[roachjuice]

The quarterback of the Dallas cowboys. Your Canadian. I wouldn't expect you to know. :D

[Directconnection]

I am not the only one that agree's the spring pressures are too high, maybe chat with 5 digits as he also agrees.

I did about a month ago.... and the #s I told him I got were ok, but in his findings, he found the springs he's tested were much higher, even on a used set. Now, this was at DC, and the tool they used was a very sophisticated spring tester for valve bodies, or something... so he was questioning the accuracy of our spring tester (and for good reason) at work. Our's has a factory calibration kit, and it's checked quite often, and also found to be real close to what they see when they order springs from stock to wild. So.... who knows? I believe he told me (sorry 5D if my "mammory" is bad) that 90psi would be kinda too low, especially on a higher boost application for the same reasoning that I believe.


BTW, this sucks! I just changed out my VC gaskets and I knew not of this problem. Now I'm wondering if I should go back and check this. Damn

Sorry, but it is worth it... it is a rare thing to have happen, but Murphy's Law usually sux.....

[Pat]

Sorry, but it is worth it... it is a rare thing to have happen, but Murphy's Law usually sux.....

i'm with Steve here...it's definitely worth looking at. I've never had one fail, but I have a number of rockers I've pulled from other motors that have had the pin walk issue.

[440dart]

The quarterback of the Dallas cowboys. Your Canadian. I wouldn't expect you to know. :D I wouldnt trust a guy with square wheels or who's head bounces on chin while talking hahahha Iam definitly going to check my rockers this is all new to me :(

[turbovanman²]

The quarterback of the Dallas cowboys. Your Canadian. I wouldn't expect you to know. :D

I don't watch football, stupid game. Too much man groping, face in azz and azz looking for me, :eyebrows:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I don't watch football, stupid game. Too much man groping, face in azz and azz looking for me, :eyebrows:

Agreed.

[Directconnection]

I don't watch football, stupid game. Too much man groping, face in azz and azz looking for me, :eyebrows:

No wonder the CFL sucked....

Abuttsford Gazers were never really a success after leaving the GFL (Ghey Football league)

[Aries_Turbo]

no wonder the cfl sucked....

Abuttsford gazers were never really a success after leaving the gfl (ghey football league)

lolololol!!!

[turbovanman²]

No wonder the CFL sucked....

Abuttsford Gazers were never really a success after leaving the GFL (Ghey Football league)

Not sure what your talking about, the NFL started it, gazer city, guess that's why alot of you love it, azz lookers and sniffers, yuck, :yuck:

It should be called "gazerball", not "football", real football is played in England, where shockers, they use THEIR FEET.

[440dart]

Not sure what your talking about, the NFL started it, gazer city, guess that's why alot of you love it, azz lookers and sniffers, yuck, :yuck:

It should be called "gazerball", not "football", real football is played in England, where shockers, they use THEIR FEET.



Sounds just like a more kinkier version to me? back on topic lol

[440dart]

I looked at my head and ive got a couple pushing out can i push them back in? and punch the ends?

[Directconnection]

That's something I'd ask jackson. I fyou don't press them back in correctly, you take a chance of squeezing the aluminum sides in and causing a multitude of issues. If they are just a bit offset, you're probably better off to leave them. But if they have worked out like the ones I showed... then maybe replace them.

Man, I didn't want to start a rocker failure frenzy... maybe Wallace should give me commission on the sales of these. hehe

[iTurbo]

Now that I think of it, I've experienced/dealt with three of these rocker arm failures. All failed the same way with the pin walking out one side and seizing up. The first time it was a few months after I bought my red Spirit R/T. I popped the valve cover off to fix a leaking gasket and found one of the exhaust rockers had failed. It had happened before I ever even got the car because after tearing it apart it was obvious that somebody had taken a grinder to the rocker and cleaned it up and reinstalled it (so it wouldn't lose oil pressure). You would be surprised at how well a Spirit R/T runs on 15 valves. I had no idea there was any problem at all..

Second time it happened it was on my white Spirit R/T a few months after buying it. I bought it with a bad turbocharger and installed a nice modded TII turbo to get the car going but right after I got it running again with a good turbo, one of the intake rockers failed. I didn't have any idea anything happened at all but it was too late....there was metal all over the engine, cam lobe wiped out, and a rod bearing knock. Car has sat ever since.

Third time it was my red Spirit R/T AGAIN! This time it was another intake rocker arm and it wiped the lobe right off of a LWP S1 cam I had in there. Metal all over the engine as well and found most of the lifter and disc (intact) in the oil pan. No bearing noise this time but the engine is still at the machine shop now.

[Turbo224]

Crikey! Now I am getting worried about my rockers. I will have the valve covers off this winter anyways so I will be sure to check everything out.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Car has sat ever since.


Solution=install Masi engine in white spirit r/t never worry about it again :)

[iTurbo]

Solution=install Masi engine in white spirit r/t never worry about it again :)

Ha, I gotta admit the thought has crossed my mind Jay. I even checked the EIN and it matched the VIN so I'm going to keep it original. Might put a 2.5L crank/pistons in there though.

[Directconnection]

Solution=install Masi engine in white spirit r/t never worry about it again :)

I am surprised it took you this long to crap on the T-III.:eyebrows:

[iTurbo]

Didn't mean to make a big deal out of this.. Honestly I think I just had an extended run of ---- luck. Especially when it comes to my red Spirit R/T for some reason. But for the amount of effort involved in removing the valve covers to take a look, yeah totally worth it. It only stands to reason that as these cars get older this kind of failure will be more and more frequent. Most of these rockers are 20+ years old now.

I will work on getting some carnage pics up. Pretty sure I have pics of all three incidents.

[iTurbo]

Here's the first time I had a rocker arm failure in my red Spirit R/T. I popped the valve covers off and found one rocker arm sitting a lot lower than the others....

34953 34954 34955

The rocker arm had failed before I even bought the car and somebody had ground the rough edges of the broken rocker and reinstalled it on the shaft so it wouldn't lose oil pressure while running. I had pics of the trashed cam too, but I had to go to the Internet Wayback Archive to get those pics and they didn't have them. At any rate I sent those cams to Lone Wolf Performance and had them welded/reground into S1 cams for the rebuild I did on the car back in ~'04.

[iTurbo]

Here is second rocker arm failure. This time on the white Spirit R/T just after getting a bunch of work done on it. Look how far the pin has walked! The photo is dark but I don't even think you can see the end of it anymore. Lots of wear on the sides too, worse than normal anyway.

Learning from failure #1 on the red car and out of spare parts, I ground down the rocker and reinstalled it so I could limp the car back home (I was moving at the time). The last two pics are after I cleaned up the fragged rocker but with all the metal parts I could find, mostly in the oil pan. The engine developed a nasty rod bearing knock soon afterwards.

34957 34958 34959 34960

[iTurbo]

And here is #3 failure which was in my red Spirit R/T again. I actually just now took these pics. I should have gotten a pic of what the rocker looked like when I found it but I think it was basically sitting 'down' like the photo above because the rocker had already barfed out the contents of the lifter bore. This time the damage to the cam (the LWP S1s I had reground after the first time) wasn't quite as severe since I was lucky enough to catch it fairly early. The major players (pin,roller,disc/swivel cap) survived pretty well but the lifter body and needle bearings got crunched up bad and most of the metal flake I found in the oil was probably from the camshaft regrinding itself on the siezed roller. The graphite shade of the camshaft is from the dry film lubricant performed at Lone Wolf.

34961 34962 34963 34964

[Directconnection]

When you think about it... cast aluminum rocker with pressed components might not be the best after lots of years and run time vs the steel rockers of the 8v. Snap ring ends on the pins would have been so much better, but thank you penny pinchers at Chrysler... this was the far more cost effective procedure.

[GLHNSLHT2]

who designed the rockers? Chryco or lotus. Cast aluminum is probably lighter than stamped steel and the T3 head has enough reciprocating mass as it is. I'd thing stamped steel rockers are probably cheaper to make too.

[turbovanman²]

When you think about it... cast aluminum rocker with pressed components might not be the best after lots of years and run time vs the steel rockers of the 8v. Snap ring ends on the pins would have been so much better, but thank you penny pinchers at Chrysler... this was the far more cost effective procedure.

Many cars use this type of setup with no issues, so its not really a penny pinching issue, :eyebrows:

[Directconnection]

who designed the rockers? Chryco or lotus. Cast aluminum is probably lighter than stamped steel and the T3 head has enough reciprocating mass as it is. I'd thing stamped steel rockers are probably cheaper to make too.

Exactly. Too much mass if made of steel. They are made by INA.

I was fortunate enough last year to talk to the chief engineer of the T-III head. He told me about a roundtable meeting they had after they got the green light to start the design of a dohc 16v head for the 2.2. It was he (representing Chrysler) a representative from Lotus, and another from INA (fwiw: INA has their logo on these rockers) I forgot who wanted what, but neither could agree on the type of valvetrain they wanted. I believe Chrysler wanted the bucket/shim style..... but hood clearance would pose an issue, hence why the T-III has the cams kinda spread apart and rockers actuating on the sides of the cams vs. on top. I believe it was INA that won out....

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------


Many cars use this type of setup with no issues, so its not really a penny pinching issue, :eyebrows:

It is a penny pinching issue to not use c-clips which cost additionally, plus the labor of installing them vs one machine in one operation that peens the ends. Sadly, they didn't "peen" them well enough on some.

[Reaper1]

Cam on bucket worked in the Masi....hmmm....

[Directconnection]

Cam on bucket worked in the Masi....hmmm....

I know... but the masi head wasn't intended to be installed originally in the L-bodies, even though they do fit rather well I am told.

[GLHNSLHT2]

was the T3 originally intended for Lbodies? Now I've got to go measure the height of my Masi head vs an 8v head next time I'm at the shop.

[Reaper1]

I thought the TIII was intended for P-bodies, then adapted to the G, J, and A bodies?

[turbovanman²]

Exactly. Too much mass if made of steel. They are made by INA.

I was fortunate enough last year to talk to the chief engineer of the T-III head. He told me about a roundtable meeting they had after they got the green light to start the design of a dohc 16v head for the 2.2. It was he (representing Chrysler) a representative from Lotus, and another from INA (fwiw: INA has their logo on these rockers) I forgot who wanted what, but neither could agree on the type of valvetrain they wanted. I believe Chrysler wanted the bucket/shim style..... but hood clearance would pose an issue, hence why the T-III has the cams kinda spread apart and rockers actuating on the sides of the cams vs. on top. I believe it was INA that won out....

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------



It is a penny pinching issue to not use c-clips which cost additionally, plus the labor of installing them vs one machine in one operation that peens the ends. Sadly, they didn't "peen" them well enough on some.

I love the story's on these engines, makes me wonder how they even run, :confused:

I can't count on one finger on any OE engine that has c clips on their factory rockers.


I know... but the masi head wasn't intended to be installed originally in the L-bodies, even though they do fit rather well I am told.

I can't see them thinking about L body's, hell, they were in the process of killing it off, plus it doesn't really fit without some mods.


was the T3 originally intended for Lbodies? Now I've got to go measure the height of my Masi head vs an 8v head next time I'm at the shop.

Like I said, I find that extremely hard to find.

[Directconnection]

was the T3 originally intended for Lbodies? Now I've got to go measure the height of my Masi head vs an 8v head next time I'm at the shop.

I am pretty sure you'll have no issues.


I thought the TIII was intended for P-bodies, then adapted to the G, J, and A bodies?

It was (and also the Daytona) but, being that the program (T-III) was started on March 1st of 1985, I doubt they were thinking 2 years ahead to install it in the P-body at the time (but I could be wrong... maybe the P-body was just on paper or they had a few test mules at the time)

---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------


I love the story's on these engines, makes me wonder how they even run, :confused:

I can't count on one finger on any OE engine that has c clips on their factory rockers.



I got one finger you can count on! Anyways, why do you read so deeply into people's emails as of late? (ie: Shadow, Carroll, etc...) Of course there are no production roller's with c-clips,(that I am aware of) you answered your own question. More assembly procedures, and parts = pennies that add up to dollars. In which, Simon has more Dollars than Sense :p




I can't see them thinking about L body's, hell, they were in the process of killing it off, plus it doesn't really fit without some mods. Like I said, I find that extremely hard to find.

I've seen a few L-bodies with T-III's... never heard/noticed that they required any trick mods to shoe-horn them in there.... other than shoe-horning them in there.

[rich tideswell]

In my opinion, aluminum is not a good choice for a moving part such as a rocker arm. Even billet aluminum is only slightly better. It has everything to do with aluminum's metallic properties, every time it's stressed (even if it's not stressed to it's limit), it's one step closer to breakage, where as steel is won't break so long as it's not stressed passed it's breakage limit. I know the argument "aluminum is better because it's lighter, and lighter is better". Generally i agree, BUT so long as the rocker arm is balanced on the shaft, the extra mass won't be noticeable.

If i were to develop a new rocker arm for the TIII, I would use tool steel - most likely cnc machine because it would be easier/ cheaper to crank them out in small batches versus casting or stamping. I would pattern mine after something like this http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-%27Steel%20Stud%20Mount%20Rockers%27-0.aspx

[turbovanman²]

I got one finger you can count on! Anyways, why do you read so deeply into people's emails as of late? (ie: Shadow, Carroll, etc...) Of course there are no production roller's with c-clips,(that I am aware of) you answered your own question. More assembly procedures, and parts = pennies that add up to dollars. In which, Simon has more Dollars than Sense :p



I've seen a few L-bodies with T-III's... never heard/noticed that they required any trick mods to shoe-horn them in there.... other than shoe-horning them in there.

You said they should have put c-clips on, well durrr, that's a no brainer but in real world land, that's too costly, so agreeing with you partly. Carroll? One thread with Shadow? I can count on one hand your thread arguments, :p

To fit an L body, the frame has to be notched, the intake modified or rad mods-not sure if people do that because or because the intake is so close or actually touch's the rad, and not sure if a/c would be make to work.

[Directconnection]

Simon, you are being a meatstick.

Never heard of notching the frame, though... the guy I met that had it done years ago never mentioned this at all. (GLH-T)

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 PM ----------


In my opinion, aluminum is not a good choice for a moving part such as a rocker arm.

If the INA, being a light casting, has held up without issue (other than the press issue on the pins) than a billet aluminum would be way stronger. 6061 is the common stuff.... but if I were Wallace, I'd go with what we used to use for making molds in the machine shop (very hard, dense, and tough for aluminum) It's called T7 (7050?) something... stuff costs more, but is soooooooo much better than the generic aluminum used in millions of CNC machined products these days.

[Reaper1]

While I agree that aluminum WILL tool harden and fail over a certain amount of cycles, I think in this case we are talking BILLIONS of cycles. Pretty much more than the lifespan of almost ANY TIII engine, even being wrung out to the max. In this case I don't think it's the aluminum so much as we're seeing a design flaw. Either the pin should be retained better, there should be better lubrication to the bearing, or the aluminum should be a higher heat treatment, or a different alloy (or both).

[GLHNSLHT2]

I am pretty sure you'll have no issues.


I'm not worried about the height to get it into an Lbody. I'm just curious because you stated they didn't want to do bucket/shim because of the height on a T3. So I want to know if my Masi Bucket/shim is taller than my 8v.

[135sohc]

It was (and also the Daytona) but, being that the program (T-III) was started on March 1st of 1985, I doubt they were thinking 2 years ahead to install it in the P-body at the time (but I could be wrong... maybe the P-body was just on paper or they had a few test mules at the time)

The P body was intended to be released in 85.

[Lotashelbys]

All I can say is make them out of 7075............

[Directconnection]

All I can say is make them out of 7075............

Yes, 7075 is what I was trying to think of.... I knew there was a 7.. a 0... and a 5.... hehehe

[zin]

Great material, we make a lot of our stuff from it, pretty much the same strength of mild steel, but it needs to be hard anodized due to some of the alloying agents in it to ensure it doesn't develop issues (years) down the line.

Mike

[Lotashelbys]

Great material, we make a lot of our stuff from it, pretty much the same strength of mild steel, but it needs to be hard anodized due to some of the alloying agents in it to ensure it doesn't develop issues (years) down the line.

Mike

Thats just about exactly what I was gonna say if someone asked why 7075. Hard anodizing would really make a nice surface for them to ride on the shaft. The last part we had made from it has lasted so long and is so strong compared to the 6061 they were made out before I really just cant believe the difference.

[Directconnection]

believe it or not, the oem rockers have some sort of hard anodizing, too. That's how they stay either perfect inside the ID, or the go to hell. Once the ano breaks down, it's down to the soft aluminum casting. So yes, hard anodizing is a must. Something our shop had done to a majority of our parts, as it was precision components for the medical field. They even have a clear ano.

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------


6061 is the common stuff.... but if I were Wallace, I'd go with what we used to use for making molds in the machine shop (very hard, dense, and tough for aluminum) It's called T7 (7050?) something... stuff costs more, but is soooooooo much better than the generic aluminum used in millions of CNC machined products these days.


Great material, we make a lot of our stuff from it, pretty much the same strength of mild steel, but it needs to be hard anodized due to some of the alloying agents in it to ensure it doesn't develop issues (years) down the line.

Mike

Yes, that's what I was saying, too, in a previous post the other day. You can tell how superior it is just by filing it...

[rx2mazda]

for them to ride on the shaft.

You know all about riding on the shaft huh? :lol:

[turbovanman²]

Simon, you are being a meatstick.

Never heard of notching the frame, though... the guy I met that had it done years ago never mentioned this at all. (GLH-T)

You have to notch the frame for the power steering to clear, maybe read a bit? :eyebrows:

Your a meat stick too buddy, takes one to know one, :p




While I agree that aluminum WILL tool harden and fail over a certain amount of cycles, I think in this case we are talking BILLIONS of cycles. Pretty much more than the lifespan of almost ANY TIII engine, even being wrung out to the max. In this case I don't think it's the aluminum so much as we're seeing a design flaw. Either the pin should be retained better, there should be better lubrication to the bearing, or the aluminum should be a higher heat treatment, or a different alloy (or both).

Agreed, if they'd simply attached the pin better, no issues for life.


believe it or not, the oem rockers have some sort of hard anodizing, too. That's how they stay either perfect inside the ID, or the go to hell. Once the ano breaks down, it's down to the soft aluminum casting. So yes, hard anodizing is a must. Something our shop had done to a majority of our parts, as it was precision components for the medical field. They even have a clear ano.

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------





Yes, that's what I was saying, too, in a previous post the other day. You can tell how superior it is just by filing it...

Agreed on the anodizing, I got my gear done, so far, its holding up.


You know all about riding on the shaft huh? :lol:

Snap, :faint:

[Lotashelbys]

My next ? to the guys with roller failures is the rocker shaft(yes Carroll I said shaft again dont get excited) show any wear or does the inside of the rocker where it rides on the shaft(shh Carroll) show any signs of wear as in the hard anodizing worn off and into the aluminum? I have seen alot of wear in these areas on several TIII engines and if its even missing a few thou of material that would cause the staft and roller to no longer be parrallel to the cam and maybe start to walk the roller pin out......

[Directconnection]

My next ? to the guys with roller failures is the rocker shaft(yes Carroll I said shaft again dont get excited) show any wear or does the inside of the rocker where it rides on the shaft(shh Carroll) show any signs of wear as in the hard anodizing worn off and into the aluminum? I have seen alot of wear in these areas on several TIII engines and if its even missing a few thou of material that would cause the staft and roller to no longer be parrallel to the cam and maybe start to walk the roller pin out......

I agree on worn components causing a mis-alignment like you say. But in many crude instances that I have seen come through the shop I work at, wear like you describe in other instances still didn't effect side loading. Furthermore, I have a set of rockers/shafts that are scored and worn an additional .0025+ and the pins were actually still fairly centered. Just so you don't think I am disagreeing with ya Jackson, I do agree that if the wear is tapered, then the rocker can't do it's thing squarely. Putting more load on one side could wear the pin/needle bearings just a c-hair, giving it that it taper... and that taper will then be transmitting some force causing the pin to walk out the side once it overcome the pressed/peened ends. I wonder, too.... if the pins actually "grab" and rotate some? I have that one rocker I didn't post a pic of where one end is like .010+ *larger* than the actual pin, and that end wobbles around.

[2.216VTurbo]

TIII=heavy short and wide.

Masi=tall narrow and lightweight

[Directconnection]

The masi head pics need the top half that was left out. Otherwise, nice comparison pics! A Masi hea dis one thing I don not have, nor have I ever seen in person. Must be a Mainer thing as farmers don't spend 25K on Masi Lebarons. hehehe

[daver]

That's actually the complete Masi head as pictured. Think you're thinking of the hans herrmann head which was a multi-piece affair.

[iTurbo]

The Masi head is about an 1" taller. The highest point on the Masi head is the backside/top edge of valve cover. The highest point on the Lotus head is the middle/top of the valley cover. Measured from the deck, the Masi is 9" and Lotus is 8". The oil fill caps add about 1/2" to the overall height of each.

[turbovanman²]

What is it with Masi engines having heads with chunks out of them in the chamber ala 2 stroke destruction? :eyebrows:

What does a TIII head weigh vs a Masi head?

[iTurbo]

Hey Jackson, I just checked a set of rocker shafts from my red Spirit R/T. After the rocker failure #1, I sent the cams *and* rocker shafts (including hold-downs) to LWP to be dry film lubed. There does not appear to be any wear of the DFL on the rocker shafts at all, not even on the shaft where failure #2 occured. I put probably a little over 40k miles on this motor with the LWP stage I cams and rocker shafts DFL'd and it held up great. Inside bore of the rocker arm looks good too on all of them except one of them (from the white R/T) had severe galling on the sides from contact with one of the hold-downs (hence my decision to have the set DFL'd).

[Directconnection]

That's actually the complete Masi head as pictured. Think you're thinking of the hans herrmann head which was a multi-piece affair.

Yes, I was thinking of the HH head. But, I also saw that the top half of the cam "caps" so to speak, are not included in the pictures (I see studs for them, though) Is the VC part of the top half of the head to secures the camshafts? Forgive my masi ignorance. Maybe the Masi Nazi will chime in soon :-)

[black86glhs]

Yes, I was thinking of the HH head. But, I also saw that the top half of the cam "caps" so to speak, are not included in the pictures (I see studs for them, though) Is the VC part of the top half of the head to secures the camshafts? Forgive my masi ignorance. Maybe the Masi Nazi will chime in soon :-)I thought Alan did......oh wait, you mean the other one, right?:D

[turbovanman²]

Inside bore of the rocker arm looks good too on all of them except one of them (from the white R/T) had severe galling on the sides from contact with one of the hold-downs (hence my decision to have the set DFL'd).

That's why I like the updated hold downs, so that kind of damage doesn't happen.


Yes, I was thinking of the HH head. But, I also saw that the top half of the cam "caps" so to speak, are not included in the pictures (I see studs for them, though) Is the VC part of the top half of the head to secures the camshafts? Forgive my masi ignorance. Maybe the Masi Nazi will chime in soon :-)

Cam caps, ala VW 2.0L 4 cylinders. Check out "Reaper1" for his Masi build log, tons of pictures.

[Reaper1]

A Masi head less the cams and manifolds is 44#'s. I weighed mine. Just for discussion's sake the Masi crank is 52#'s! I weighed that myself as well!

[turbovanman²]

A Masi head less the cams and manifolds is 44#'s. I weighed mine. Just for discussion's sake the Masi crank is 52#'s! I weighed that myself as well!

Pretty light, I'll have to weight a bare TIII head. I know the cranks are stupid heavy, :(

[GLHNSLHT2]

There's a thread that Simon and I have posted in that have weights of complete heads sans the valve covers. I don't remember what thread it is though. The Masi head was significantly lighter.

As for being the Mazi Nazi I'm not. I have a 2 8v setups, 2 masi setups, and a 2.4 turbo setup in my shop at the moment. :) Though I guess I still see the Masi as the superior motor out of all of them.

[rx2mazda]

....I still see the Masi as the superior motor out of all of them.

That's because you don't have a TIII there. :eyebrows:

[Lotashelbys]

As for being the Mazi Nazi I'm not. I have a 2 8v setups, 2 masi setups, and a 2.4 turbo setup in my shop at the moment. :) Though I guess I still see the Masi as the superior motor out of all of them.


That's because you don't have a TIII there. :eyebrows:

lol GLHNSLHT2 I know how bad you wanna add a TIII to that collection! Drive one for a while and I know you will like it! lol

[GLHNSLHT2]

You'd have to do all the maintenence, fixing and then give me gas money to drive the thing around. Sorry but I will NEVER have a T3.

[turbovanman²]

There's a thread that Simon and I have posted in that have weights of complete heads sans the valve covers. I don't remember what thread it is though. The Masi head was significantly lighter.

As for being the Mazi Nazi I'm not. I have a 2 8v setups, 2 masi setups, and a 2.4 turbo setup in my shop at the moment. :) Though I guess I still see the Masi as the superior motor out of all of them.

I know the Masi head is lighter, you can see it, plus the TIII cams weigh alot also.

I think they meant Alan as the masi nazi.


You'd have to do all the maintenence, fixing and then give me gas money to drive the thing around. Sorry but I will NEVER have a T3.

What maintenance?

[2.216VTurbo]

I know the Masi head is lighter, you can see it, plus the TIII cams weigh alot also.

I think they meant Alan as the masi nazi.



What maintenance?

Uh, like I have to pull the VC's of the Rampage RT this weekend and try and find out what extraneous piece of valvetrain componantry sounds like it is trying to eat itself at 3800-4500 :confused: At first I barely heard the noise and thought it was a rod knock:( But it is getting louder and louder and clearly a top end noise. Last time I had to pull a Masi VC because of an odd noise was, well, never:p

[turbovanman²]

Last time I had to pull a Masi VC because of an odd noise was, well, never:p

That's because non of them run, they are all being rebuilt, :p

[Lotashelbys]

Simon we will never win this battle with the Masi guys! I know the Masi is a hell of an engine and has alot less "factory issues" than the TIII. If I wasnt knee deep in TIIIs and parts and cars I might even try one myself. But just for the record MY TIIIs run very well for themselves.....

[turbovanman²]

Simon we will never win this battle with the Masi guys! I know the Masi is a hell of an engine and has alot less "factory issues" than the TIII. If I wasnt knee deep in TIIIs and parts and cars I might even try one myself. But just for the record MY TIIIs run very well for themselves.....

I know, and agree, its a wicked engine but cheaper than a TIII, I think not.

[Directconnection]

Jay is right.... the T-III has a lot of issues. But if you address these issues properly, they will be pretty much non-existent.

Do you guys remember all the fables about the 8v turbo motors? They eat cams, they torch headgaskets all the time, leak oil, etc... I heard a guy at my pal's JY just this weekend. He and some other guy were talking about the Plymouth Laser as he said he had one (the DSM one) and also a Daytona. He then informed us all that "they eat headgaskets! Same motor in the Daytona as was in the Laser, as I had both! Junk..." The 2.2/2.5 does blow headgaskets, but of the TM's I've had, I find it happens due to mileage or age (120,000 or 10+ years) After installing a new HG in them, I never had an issue.

So maybe Jay needs to check himself, as he forgets: "It's still a fawking POS 2.2 no matter how much you polish it" :)

[GLHNSLHT2]

I know the Masi head is lighter, you can see it, plus the TIII cams weigh alot also.

I think they meant Alan as the masi nazi.



What maintenance?

No they meant me as I've been called that in a previous thread.

Maintenance, as in the all the issues the T3's have.

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------


Simon we will never win this battle with the Masi guys! I know the Masi is a hell of an engine and has alot less "factory issues" than the TIII. If I wasnt knee deep in TIIIs and parts and cars I might even try one myself. But just for the record MY TIIIs run very well for themselves.....

Agreed, you do have good luck with them.

[turbovanman²]

No they meant me as I've been called that in a previous thread.

Maintenance, as in the all the issues the T3's have.

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------



Agreed, you do have good luck with them.

Ok, I figured they meant Alan, as he had that moniker.

I know what you meant, forgot to use a smilie, messing around.

My only issues with TIII's are me, not the engine, :banghead: :lol:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I know, and agree, its a wicked engine but cheaper than a TIII, I think not.

Yea but us Masi guy's aren't grinding our valve tips with an air powered angle grinder.

[turbovanman²]

Yea but us Masi guy's aren't grinding our valve tips with an air powered angle grinder.

Why not? Think of the fun your missing.

[Directconnection]

Yea but us Masi guy's aren't grinding our valve tips with an air powered angle grinder.

I think we went there once with this.... but please tell me Simon didn't do this, did he?

[tsiconquest88]

T3's really arent that bad. Idk anything about the masi but i would imagine like the t3 they are fine after being re-done correctly.

[turbovanman²]

I think we went there once with this.... but please tell me Simon didn't do this, did he?

Yes, about 4 years ago, the machine shop screwed up my valve stem heights and I had to trim a few in the van, the head had been off twice so I'd had enough as one valve was staying open. My regular machinist was on holidays, which is when I seem to break down. It worked, so it was wrong but whatever, :eyebrows:

[Directconnection]

Yes, about 4 years ago, the machine shop screwed up my valve stem heights and I had to trim a few in the van, the head had been off twice so I'd had enough as one valve was staying open. My regular machinist was on holidays, which is when I seem to break down. It worked, so it was wrong but whatever, :eyebrows:

Wow... How do you say "Ghetto" in Canadian? Ah yes.... "Le Simon"

[rx2mazda]

Fastest TM ever runs a TIII....just sayin. :evil:

[Reaper1]

Fastest TM ever runs a TIII....just sayin. :evil:

But after seeing a Masi up close was reported as to saying that he could have gone just as fast with WAY less work with the Masi! Hmmmmm... ;)

[rx2mazda]

But after seeing a Masi up close was reported as to saying that he could have gone just as fast with WAY less work with the Masi! Hmmmmm... ;)

That's speculation/hear-say! Doesn't work in court and it damn sure doesn't work in cars. :P

[turbovanman²]

Wow... How do you say "Ghetto" in Canadian? Ah yes.... "Le Simon"

Yep, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.


Fastest TM ever runs a TIII....just sayin. :evil:

Amen to that, :hail:


That's speculation/hear-say! Doesn't work in court and it damn sure doesn't work in cars. :P

True dat, coulda shoulda woulda, if we want to speculate, we'll go to Carrolls other place, :eyebrows:

[iTurbo]

When I had the valve cover off my Caliber SRT-4 for powder coating, I noticed the valvetrain was very much like the Masi 16v TC head. Same kind of cam-over-bucket arrangement and the valve cover even has the little spark plug tube o-rings kinda like the Masi. I can't believe no one has put the 2.4L Turbo World Engine in an older turbo Mopar yet.

[turbovanman²]

I can't believe no one has put the 2.4L Turbo World Engine in an older turbo Mopar yet.

So what are you waiting for? :eyebrows:

[zin]

When I had the valve cover off my Caliber SRT-4 for powder coating, I noticed the valvetrain was very much like the Masi 16v TC head. Same kind of cam-over-bucket arrangement and the valve cover even has the little spark plug tube o-rings kinda like the Masi. I can't believe no one has put the 2.4L Turbo World Engine in an older turbo Mopar yet.

Really? They are using a direct acting cam? Seems like quite a departure from the older/non-world engines, but is simpler, but taller from a packaging standpoint...

Mike

[iTurbo]

I would have looked into the World 2.4L swap by now but I'm up to my eyeballs in TIII stuff right now. I wish I would have taken a picture of the cylinder head and valvetrain on my Caliber when I had the valve cover off. There aren't any rocker arms or lifters; just cams, buckets, and shims as far as I could tell. Oh, and the cam phasers:D Those are neat.

[zin]

I would have looked into the World 2.4L swap by now but I'm up to my eyeballs in TIII stuff right now. I wish I would have taken a picture of the cylinder head and valvetrain on my Caliber when I had the valve cover off. There aren't any rocker arms or lifters; just cams, buckets, and shims as far as I could tell. Oh, and the cam phasers:D Those are neat.

Sounds like a winner to me! At least as far as the head goes... I wonder if it would retro-fit to an older 2.4 (and therefore the 2.2/2.5)... Of course if there aren't any Achilles's heels in the world engine, it would be a smarter bet to just do a swap...

Mike

[Reaper1]

From what I remember about the "world" engine the bore spacing is entirely different. The thing *I* don't like about it is that it is semi-open deck! :( It doesn't seem to be an issue with the Evo guys, but still...I REALLY don't like that design for high power numbers. Ask the Honda guys about how well that arrangement works. :/

[glhs0426]

I would have looked into the World 2.4L swap by now but I'm up to my eyeballs in TIII stuff right now. I wish I would have taken a picture of the cylinder head and valvetrain on my Caliber when I had the valve cover off. There aren't any rocker arms or lifters; just cams, buckets, and shims as far as I could tell. Oh, and the cam phasers:D Those are neat.

There are no shims. The buckets are individually selected by thickness.

There are other neat features. There are two theromstats, one for the cylinder head and one for the block. The water pump is virtually a belt driven remote style. The oil pump is chain driven and located in the pan. I don't like the fact the 2.0/2.4 integrate the oil pump into the balance shaft carrier, but that is easily fixed by installing a 1.8 oil pump that does not use balance shafts.

Engine swaps would be very involved. The plastic intake is fly-by-wire throttle body. The Caliber transmission would require being used or an adapter plate made. If you use the transmission, axles would have to be made. The PCM requires 3 other computers be working properly to let it function correctly. It's not that it can't be done; it's just more work than most are willing to do. Personally, I'd love to SEE it done.

[iTurbo]

Very cool. Would love to scoop up one of those drivetrains someday but waaaaay too many irons in the fire already. I was thinking if I did it I would probably not even try to run factory '08-'09 electronics and go aftermarket. Heck maybe even a cam driven distributor could be made to work with minimal fab but that seems a little archaic although it could minimize the hassle of adapting to the older car. I would most definitely get away from the stock intake manifold. I hear it has some kind of solenoid operated ramps to promote air flow at lower RPM or something. I had wanted to powdercoat the intake as well until finding out how much was really going on in there and that some the components probably wouldn't hold up to the curing heat. The valve cover seems to be made of same material and withstood 375'F for 1/2 hour without a problem.

[GLHNSLHT2]

dual path intake to give you more torque at lower engine speeds and power up top.

[turbovanman²]

dual path intake to give you more torque at lower engine speeds and power up top.

Yep, alot of cars have this design, best of both worlds.

[Aries_Turbo]

Id run it off of a megasquirt. generic cam and crank sensor wheels can be used to retain full sequential injection and ignition and probably drive the stock coils though LS1 wouldnt be a bad choice here.

someone could datalog the stock ramp intake flap thingies to see when they open and then duplicate it with various means, rpm window switches, wastegate actuators (make it boost activated) or other things.

mechanically mounting the engine and connecting it to a trans would be the most difficult thing in my opinion but i love engine management and electronics though.

brian

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------

oh wait, there is variable cam timing on this thing right?

some datalogging would be needed on the wiring that controls the cam phasers to determine how they are controlled and then that can be duplicated as well.

brian

[omnigoestohell]

To bring this thread back from the dead a bit --- I too have had a T3 motor where a roller pin had failed and grenaded the top end. How about a simple fix for this, maybe some clips that slide over the rocker and retain the pin, similar to what chrysler was installing on the diff pins in the later differentials... just to try to keep the pin in place a little better?

[Turbo Joe]

any updates on this wallace?

[karlak]

Did this ever go anywhere?

[Force Fed Mopar]

So apparently, these 10k-rpm mechanical TIII rockers never materialized to production/group buy? Long term testing didn't pan out?

[Turbo Joe]

if I had to guess, i would guess it has been about 5 years or so last time I spoke with Wallace over the phone and wasn't doing much car wise with personal life things going on. I haven't seen or heard from him in ages so i'd guess maybe car stuff is not part of his life at the moment? it would've been nice to have a different avenue of obtaining parts or upgrading parts prone to failure being as old as they are and under such stress.

[Chris W]

We have a few NOS sets left of the TIII rockers and lifters.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?82598-New-and-Improved-TIII-Rocker-Arms-Lifters-Now-Available-TU&p=1134426&highlight=#post1134426

Chris-TU