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View Full Version : I O-ringed an ISB head the other day



Directconnection
10-06-2011, 10:56 PM
This is probably about the 12th Cummins head I've o-ringed in the past. Typically, we do the ISB (24v) with 2 types of o-rings: hollow gas filled or .041" steel wire like in the pic.

You may be saying to yourself: "man... that's a bit ghetto" But if all the tool geometry is right on, and the workpiece is indicated in, it should work perfectly, right? I still sweat like a redneck writin' a check every time I do these, as one little goof up would ruin the entire head. Tool MUST be .039" and make a .039-.040" wide grove, and be within +/- .001" deep (.030" in this case for proper protrusion) I try and end up with it all within .001" on the depth.

Tool is made from an old HSS roughing endmill and hand ground on a simple beater bench grinder (makes things REAL hard to get the profile vs. using the old surface grinder at my other place of employment)

Thought I'd share.....

bakes
10-07-2011, 12:43 AM
NIce work !!!!!!

see that pic makes me want to port my head
you have any ported pics?????

turbovanmanČ
10-07-2011, 01:17 AM
I can never figure out how they make the power they do on those crap ports, they look like a preschooler cast them.

"Top Fuel" Bender
10-07-2011, 07:57 AM
looks good, nothing ghetto there
at what level is the o-ringing a good idea on the cummins?

if you take your time and think about what your doing you can make almost anything work
we do stuff like that all the time:o
use the mill the to put 4 flats in a large piece of round stock so it'll fit in the lathe
put the cutter in the vise of a mill and the stock in the chuck to use the mill as a lathe
ball mill with a 3d tool path to make round parts in the mill before we got the cnc lathe

you should see the crappy setup the air cool VW guys use to semi-sphere the cyl. heads :eek:

Here'e our latest ghetto move
Trenching Billet banshee cases for stroker motors
34412

turbovanmanČ
10-07-2011, 12:22 PM
^^^^^^^^ Awesome, :nod:

cordes
10-07-2011, 01:13 PM
Wow that's some cool stuff. Thanks for sharing guys.

GLHNSLHT2
10-07-2011, 08:15 PM
maybe you should tell the boss to buy you a carbide insert for doing o-rings. I feel for you.

Directconnection
10-07-2011, 10:38 PM
maybe you should tell the boss to buy you a carbide insert for doing o-rings. I feel for you.

They are too cheap.

When I do the gas filed rings (.120" I think), the grooves are too wide for the minimum rpm a bridgeport style mill can do (back gear and 60rpms) So.... I Jog the switch to get about 30-40 rpms, and when I get close to full depth, she really starts chattering so I put it in neutral, and have to finish it off via hand while running the knee in increments. I kinda have to do it with even these .039 grooves.

I can out-do ya on the ghetto stuff TF! I had to make a mounting plate for a circle jerk's dry sump years back, and I *could* have just bandsawed and filed/sanded the arc needed, but instead, set the boring bar and tool to the radius needed. The arc was about 90 degrees on the outside connection to other angles, so it was truly a CNC part. Find the center of my arc, set tool to proper radius dimension.... and slowly by hand sweep the angle of arc with one hand, while going up with the knee in .001" increments and blending it all in. If I started and ended exactly at points A and B, it comes out pretty good!

Working in an old job shop with 1960's technology taught me a lot as 1/2 of everything we did there was on limited tooling and machinery. But the end results were always spot on.

Directconnection
10-08-2011, 12:39 AM
NIce work !!!!!!

see that pic makes me want to port my head
you have any ported pics?????


I can never figure out how they make the power they do on those crap ports, they look like a preschooler cast them.

No pics of ported heads. I did one for a guy last year and only charged him $200, when in fact, it should have really been more like $500-700. Guy calls our shop on a Thursday asking if he dropped off the head, could we O-ring it and have it done by Friday. My last day for vacation was going to start once Friday ended, but they still said ok. Guy comes in Friday in the AM (supposed to have brought it in Thursday) and wants it done in like 3 hours. Then asks: can you port it for me, too? WTF!!?? So, we end up tearing apart the head and milling it 1st, then I O-ring it (takes about 4 hours) and then I stay real late until 10pm that night porting it. Those heads need a LOT of work... suck like a Ford Cleveland head. I am sure I made a large improvement, and you get ballsy wondering how far to remove those humps... as I had no test mule. Guy ended waiting until next week, though, as he needed new valves as the 45's were hammered and wasn't too pleased as he questioned the new valves decision. (they were toast)

I just don't get it though, as that was the only guy out of like a dozen of these that I have o-ringed for these competition "pulling trucks" that ended up being ported.

One head I did, guy brings it in and figures he's going to wait for me to do it. 1st: this guy, mind you, had a terrible hunting accident where the gun fired through the underside of his chin, and kinda blew off the front of his entire face... awesome person, just incredibly difficult to look and talk to... These heads (any head for that matter) are never straight, and this one was warped pretty bad. Didn't want it resurfaced at all, but I had to explain that the o-rings have to be within .001" depth according to the wire company. He kept telling me: "I don't get it... the engine only has 70,000 miles on it" I find out that they friggin' use it for pulling competitions at the fairs at like 60 or 80psi and spray. Doh!

Real funny one was 3 years ago. Guy calls and wants his head o-ringed. We give him a price on labor, and also the cost of the wire. They drop the head off, and a couple days later it's done. We call to tell them it's ready, and the guy's redneck wife picks it up. She thought the total price was just the labor quote... not the additional $50 or so for the wire. Flips out big time and starts yelling: "I hope you know that because of you guys, we ain't gonna be able to pay our bills this month!!!" I wasn't at the front when this went down, but I probably would've said: "glad to see that you put truck pulling as your #1 priority over that eating and paying bills thang"

135sohc
10-08-2011, 12:59 AM
Steve if you think your setup is ghetto to the max you would have absolutely cringed if you saw what I did to tap the threads for pipe plugs on my engine block yesterday. Making do with what you got, not what you wish you had. :)

cordes
10-08-2011, 04:01 PM
No pics of ported heads. I did one for a guy last year and only charged him $200, when in fact, it should have really been more like $500-700. Guy calls our shop on a Thursday asking if he dropped off the head, could we O-ring it and have it done by Friday. My last day for vacation was going to start once Friday ended, but they still said ok. Guy comes in Friday in the AM (supposed to have brought it in Thursday) and wants it done in like 3 hours. Then asks: can you port it for me, too? WTF!!?? So, we end up tearing apart the head and milling it 1st, then I O-ring it (takes about 4 hours) and then I stay real late until 10pm that night porting it. Those heads need a LOT of work... suck like a Ford Cleveland head. I am sure I made a large improvement, and you get ballsy wondering how far to remove those humps... as I had no test mule. Guy ended waiting until next week, though, as he needed new valves as the 45's were hammered and wasn't too pleased as he questioned the new valves decision. (they were toast)

I just don't get it though, as that was the only guy out of like a dozen of these that I have o-ringed for these competition "pulling trucks" that ended up being ported.

One head I did, guy brings it in and figures he's going to wait for me to do it. 1st: this guy, mind you, had a terrible hunting accident where the gun fired through the underside of his chin, and kinda blew off the front of his entire face... awesome person, just incredibly difficult to look and talk to... These heads (any head for that matter) are never straight, and this one was warped pretty bad. Didn't want it resurfaced at all, but I had to explain that the o-rings have to be within .001" depth according to the wire company. He kept telling me: "I don't get it... the engine only has 70,000 miles on it" I find out that they friggin' use it for pulling competitions at the fairs at like 60 or 80psi and spray. Doh!

Real funny one was 3 years ago. Guy calls and wants his head o-ringed. We give him a price on labor, and also the cost of the wire. They drop the head off, and a couple days later it's done. We call to tell them it's ready, and the guy's redneck wife picks it up. She thought the total price was just the labor quote... not the additional $50 or so for the wire. Flips out big time and starts yelling: "I hope you know that because of you guys, we ain't gonna be able to pay our bills this month!!!" I wasn't at the front when this went down, but I probably would've said: "glad to see that you put truck pulling as your #1 priority over that eating and paying bills thang"

I really wish I had a machine shop around here like yours. I've got a decent place here in town, but they're mainly prototype stuff so I'm not worth their time for the most part.

zin
10-08-2011, 05:27 PM
Ghetto or not, it's results that count! If the end result is good and consistent, that's what matters, at least on a onesy twosy type job. IMHO!

Mike

Directconnection
10-08-2011, 07:55 PM
I really wish I had a machine shop around here like yours. I've got a decent place here in town, but they're mainly prototype stuff so I'm not worth their time for the most part.

Hey Brian, your best bet is to find a small shop, or find a privateer/hobbyist. IE: a guy with a lathe and mill in his cellar/garage. When you find these kinds of people, usually they charge only like $20 an hour as they have no overhead.


Ghetto or not, it's results that count! If the end result is good and consistent, that's what matters, at least on a onesy twosy type job. IMHO!

Mike

We still make money on this job. And what makes any setup come out really good is if it's a rigid setup, in which this primarily is.

cordes
10-08-2011, 08:13 PM
Thanks for the tip Steve. I'll be on the lookout for sure.

tsiconquest88
10-11-2011, 07:50 AM
That and they tend to be careful and care about what their working on!

Oh BTW i got one u on all of you for ghetto lol. Should have seen my methods for making my wg bracket lol. Lets just say a crack in my curb in front of my house was used to lay the metal down for drilling my bolt holes and wg stud holes lol. Oh and held by hand lol. Couple times it yanked and smacked my hand good lol. One instance i was trying to slot one hole with the drill as i was a little off for one hole, well the ----- grabbed for some reason mind you i was already reaming the hole, and i was holding it on my knee, it spun grabbed my shorts whipped across mt leg the same time giving me 3 cuts lol. Just missed the jewels when i let off the trigger. Happened so quick! Lucky i even stopped the trigger as fast as i did lol.

Mopar318
10-11-2011, 08:14 AM
I really wish I had a machine shop around here like yours. I've got a decent place here in town, but they're mainly prototype stuff so I'm not worth their time for the most part.

Thats why we just bought one instead.

tsiconquest88
10-11-2011, 08:26 AM
^ Glad you had the money lol

Mopar318
10-11-2011, 08:38 AM
^ Glad you had the money lol

I mean we bought a mill, not a machine shop. They are actually pretty cheap, especially the old CNC machines that most people have no idea how to get working.

tsiconquest88
10-11-2011, 06:07 PM
ohhhh haha. I was like um ok money bags.

cordes
10-16-2011, 12:33 AM
I mean we bought a mill, not a machine shop. They are actually pretty cheap, especially the old CNC machines that most people have no idea how to get working.

What do you consider cheap?

Mopar318
10-16-2011, 10:08 AM
What do you consider cheap?

We payed less than $1000 for a Bridgeport series II CNC. Pretty good considering it was $80k in 1980, and it is almost 3 tons of pure iron. Scrapped the old electronics for what we payed.

tsiconquest88
10-16-2011, 12:42 PM
not a bad deal at all. How much did revised electronics run? just curious.

440dart
10-18-2011, 05:42 PM
I can never figure out how they make the power they do on those crap ports, they look like a preschooler cast them. 100psi of boost will make anything make power lol

tsiconquest88
10-18-2011, 05:55 PM
i dont see whats so bad with the ports. They looke rather large and they are about the same shape as the t3 head, neon dohc, etc etc. Just examples to go by lol.