Staged cams why some work and some dont???

[440dart]

Iam wondering why some of the aftermarket cams people are haveing problems with them??? Every other car out there responds well like the srt,sr20,dsm and they have no problems the factory cams cant be that great so whats the problem do we just have a bunch of cam grinders that dont know what there doing or what??

[turbovanman²]

Why do you say they don't work?

[440dart]

you have posted before that you gained milage and bottom end but power wasnt on par if i remember correctly, been a few others that put there stockers back in and have had extreme low end power loss



"iturbo posted" The cams looked fantastic when I got them back, just like new! Unfortunately I can't say I was ever happy with the performance characteristics of the cams effect on my combo. I think I was partly naive about what they would do since I've never run anything but stock cams on my cars. Basically the problem was that the car had NO low end torque whatsoever


"turbovanman"
Hmmmmmmmm, I seem to also gained MPG but it also seems peppier around town, boost seems ok too until I hit the track then its just not making the power. Also, I used to launch violently, my friends commented on that yesterday, it would come out of the hole hard, now, nope. I think these engines like the stock cams, they are low duration so maybe we need more lift but less duration. IIRC correctly, mine are like .380" lift and 280 duration.

I vote option 3, my stockers are going back in very soon and praying for sun or dry weather the last couple of street legals.


"30psishadow"
running stage 2 cams with lash caps. Retarded intake 4 degrees and advanced exhaust 1 degree. Laggy on the bottom,till 4k then explodes for huge top end. Vac at idle is 12in.(ran best all around) If i run them straight up, vac is like 5in. and stalls coming up to a light. bottom end does not improve.
Still dont have them degreed, but moving them around alot, doesnt affect very much. Never drove a T3 with stock cams,so no comment. My 8v CSX is more drivable though.
thinking of building another top end combo this winter, so cam choice will be stock or other grind.

[turbovanman²]

LOL, well I changed my mind, I really like the Stage II's, I just felt I needed to go back to stock because I was having spooling issues with my turbo. Now if I had a .63 housing and a cut out, I am sure could easily spool it. I miss the bottom end, they were better around town than the stockers for sure. I am also sure that if I'd had a bit more time, I could have run a 12 sec run at around 18-20 psi. The idle I could deal with but for a 5 speed car, they'd be a much better match.

Not sure why iTurbo had issues with his, can't remember if they are LW or Delta's as I know Delta's RV cam's suck.

LW' and FWD's stage I's seem to be just fine, although most seem to with stock grinds as nobody want's to experiment, and my assumption is changing them out requires a head removal, so why chance it.

[iTurbo]

I had LWP stage I in my red Spirit R/T. I gotta say I was never happy with them, not even close. Maybe the profile was messed up, or maybe they were actually stage II or something. Car ran great at WOT, but had really crappy driveability, NO low end torque, very low idle vacuum (10-12 in/hg), and detonated with anything over 8 psi no matter what unless I put 100 octane in. I also had FWDP adjustable cam gears and got really good at centerlining them with Wallaces suggestions and a lot of experimentation but nothing seemed to help much.

Then I had a rocker sieze and it wiped out one of the lobes so I will very happily be putting stock cams back in. I do have a set of FWDP stage I cams and I'm eager to try those out when the time comes for my Omni.

[440dart]

I guess i just dont understand why they dont work, they work in everything else, i really want to go with a lumpy sounding cam like this in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpegBYr54J8&feature=related

[Directconnection]

I had LWP stage I in my red Spirit R/T. I gotta say I was never happy with them, not even close. Maybe the profile was messed up, or maybe they were actually stage II or something. Car ran great at WOT, but had really crappy driveability, NO low end torque, very low idle vacuum (10-12 in/hg), and detonated with anything over 8 psi no matter what unless I put 100 octane in. I also had FWDP adjustable cam gears and got really good at centerlining them with Wallaces suggestions and a lot of experimentation but nothing seemed to help much.

Then I had a rocker sieze and it wiped out one of the lobes so I will very happily be putting stock cams back in. I do have a set of FWDP stage I cams and I'm eager to try those out when the time comes for my Omni.

Are FWD-P and LW the same cams? I remember Stephane's R&D reportedly showed great gains with the S1's he tried (whomever they were) on a bone stock T-III car.

I have my own custom "S1" style grind and have been also "scared" to see if they work well, or not.

---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------


I guess i just dont understand why they dont work, they work in everything else, i really want to go with a lumpy sounding cam like this in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpegBYr54J8&feature=related

Who cares if they sound lumpy... might work in our favor in a street race thinking we have a POS car...

Simon can chime in on the person(s) that had issues with the Delta T-III cams, as those had issues, too.

Our T-III's are far and few in between with little R&D into them vs. a DSM, or whatever they are being compared to. So, it's understandable why some things just plain don't work....


10-12" of vacuum ain't cool, though.

[turbovanman²]

Again, if changing cams wasn't so hard, I'd love to try a set of S1's.

As for Delta, yep, there stage 1's cost my friend his engine, we couldn't get anymore than 8-10" IIRC, and due to this, it washed the cylinders down, filled the crankcase with fuel and out went the bottom end. I even tried playing with cam timing, nada. Put some stockers in, 20" with no other changes, except a new bottom end, :(

Steve, idle vacuum isn't really a big deal, as you can tune for it, I had my idle like butter but my only gripe was cold running, it was rich, but I was working on it. Auto's are more sensitive but a manual car, it shouldn't matter.

[glhs727]

The LW's and FWD stage 1's are not the same or at least not done by the same company. I do not know what LW uses as their profile so I cannot comment as too how close they are to the FWD cams, but I can say that we use a different cam maker for our cams than LW does for their cams.
Delta also offers a stage 1 cam and they do NOT make cams for LW or us. So I think some of the issues people have is who makes their cams. I know another major cam company that tried to make us stage 1 and stage 2 cams years ago. After they F-upped 4 sets of cams, all they could say was tough luck. Still had to pay the $1k PLUS lost 4 sets of cams. They were making a grind that had severe overlap like they were for an NA car not a turbo car. Cars would only make 12 inches of vacuum and no matter what you did it would not idle and ran like crap. the cam maker that does our cams now, understands turbo cam design, and I have nothing but good to say about them and our cams. So remember not all stage 1 cams are alike....

[Directconnection]

The LW's and FWD stage 1's are not the same or at least not done by the same company. I do not know what LW uses as their profile so I cannot comment as too how close they are to the FWD cams, but I can say that we use a different cam maker for our cams than LW does for their cams.
Delta also offers a stage 1 cam and they do NOT make cams for LW or us. So I think some of the issues people have is who makes their cams. I know another major cam company that tried to make us stage 1 and stage 2 cams years ago. After they F-upped 4 sets of cams, all they could say was tough luck. Still had to pay the $1k PLUS lost 4 sets of cams. They were making a grind that had severe overlap like they were for an NA car not a turbo car. Cars would only make 12 inches of vacuum and no matter what you did it would not idle and ran like crap. the cam maker that does our cams now, understands turbo cam design, and I have nothing but good to say about them and our cams. So remember not all stage 1 cams are alike....

Thanks for clarifying. The guy that did mine, we talked quite a bit about turbo cams vs. NA and he was already knowledgable, and being that... he pretty much gave me the exact same thing as a stock cam profile, with the exception of a bit more aggressive ramping even though the valve timing events were to be the same as stock (and a few more thou lift). It was he that initially told me that typically, the OEM does a pretty good job getting things right, so for what I wanted, no sense in dicking with a proven combination.

Cindy, is your profile paterned after Stephane's or was it LW?

[roachjuice]

I guess i just dont understand why they dont work, they work in everything else, i really want to go with a lumpy sounding cam like this in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpegBYr54J8&feature=related

Hole lee shyt!!! That car scoots!!! I like that lumpy cam sound.

[turbovanman²]

Damn that Audi hauls, 2.2 5 cylinder, 700 hp, 10.19 in the 1/4.

[shadow88]

I recall reading in the Mopar 2.2/2.5 3rd edition about cams, and they said the only cam that made more power was the super 60. It's duration isn't too much more aggressive, but about 70 thou more lift.

My car was notably quicker with the super 60 cam, but with the wear issues, I had to return to a stock roller.

Simon's roller super 60 intrigue me, but I'm just not quite ready to spend the money yet. Maybe in the spring. :)

[turbovanman²]

I recall reading in the Mopar 2.2/2.5 3rd edition about cams, and they said the only cam that made more power was the super 60. It's duration isn't too much more aggressive, but about 70 thou more lift.

My car was notably quicker with the super 60 cam, but with the wear issues, I had to return to a stock roller.

Simon's roller super 60 intrigue me, but I'm just not quite ready to spend the money yet. Maybe in the spring. :)

But TIII's are different, lol.

I'll be waiting, :eyebrows:

[Lotashelbys]

I have had very good luck with both LWP and FWD S1s. I have a set of LWP S1s in my green car with stock gears and compared to the car with stock cams it runs better in every aspect. It pulls harder from say 2500 to over 8000 than a stock set ever would. Warm idle vacuum is around 16-17". I have put 2 sets of FWD S1s in customers cars and they seem to feel very close to the LWPs. They pulled harder than the stockers did in both cars for sure. The vacuum was very similar to the 16-17 I was getting with the LWPs. I would not hesitate to run either set of cams in any and all stock to 400ish HP TIII cars. From now on if a car needs cam work as in lobe flaking I will just get a set of S1s from FWD as they usually have them in stock.

[440dart]

LOL i care thats why i want it, dsms and srts are pretty close other then the srt is bigger and dsm is smaller with all the technoligy someone cant make a decent cam for a old 90s car is rediculous i guess i should say they just havnt been in the right hand.

Cindy your cams sound promiseing, do you offer stage 2 or 3 ??? if so what are the pros and cons over the stg1

[turbovanman²]

I have had very good luck with both LWP and FWD S1s. I have a set of LWP S1s in my green car with stock gears and compared to the car with stock cams it runs better in every aspect. It pulls harder from say 2500 to over 8000 than a stock set ever would. Warm idle vacuum is around 16-17". I have put 2 sets of FWD S1s in customers cars and they seem to feel very close to the LWPs. They pulled harder than the stockers did in both cars for sure. The vacuum was very similar to the 16-17 I was getting with the LWPs. I would not hesitate to run either set of cams in any and all stock to 400ish HP TIII cars. From now on if a car needs cam work as in lobe flaking I will just get a set of S1s from FWD as they usually have them in stock.

Good info, thanks.


LOL i care thats why i want it, dsms and srts are pretty close other then the srt is bigger and dsm is smaller with all the technoligy someone cant make a decent cam for a old 90s car is rediculous i guess i should say they just havnt been in the right hand.

Cindy your cams sound promiseing, do you offer stage 2 or 3 ??? if so what are the pros and cons over the stg1

She sells stage II, and tri flows, the tri flows are the biggest grind offered so far, I am selling these, :eyebrows:

You know the pro's and con's-low vacuum aprox 12", bit of an idle, lash caps needed, you need to tune for them, but honestly, they are wicked cams, especially if your going all out and want to rev the engine.

[tsiconquest88]

Im assuming you dont need adjustable cam gears for the stg 1's? Since im seeing they are doing good im considering a set for my spare head. Be nice if i didnt need adjus gears but if i do thats fine too lol. Jackson- this increase in power in the cars you put them in, was it stock gears or adjustable?

[turbovanman²]

The adjustables are really needed as with head milling, etc, they won't be properly set up but if you don't care, then just run the stockers.

[shadow88]

But TIII's are different, lol.

I'll be waiting, :eyebrows:

Whooops! Didn't realize this was the T3 section. Yes, you guys are a unique breed. :)

[Shadow]

You guys are going to hate me for saying this, but here goes. The reason I see for so much "trouble" in our community with cams is because very few take the time and know how to set them up Right.

Let's face it, the largest % of this community doesn't take the time to get their set-up working right with Stock stuff. Then they start swapping in parts to try to make things better! lol

I can personaly say that one of the main reasons I never tried a cam swap in the Charger is because I could only find 1 or 2 ppl that said it would work. I read up on so many that didn't seem to get anything out of them? So I stuck with the tried and true factory roller.

When I finally did drop in a cam (F4) the difference was night and day! But remember, my system was sorted out and operating at a very high level of efficiency and reliability for what it is. The Cam was not a bandaid because I wasn't happy with my build, it was the next step and so making that 1 change, it was very easy to see Exactly what it did.

Even after swapping to the F4 and submitting everything I learned from doing it, I still Know there are many out there that Aren't getting proper results from a cam swap. Trust me, it's because they have too many other issues that need to be worked out first ;)

[Directconnection]

Im assuming you dont need adjustable cam gears for the stg 1's? Since im seeing they are doing good im considering a set for my spare head. Be nice if i didnt need adjus gears but if i do thats fine too lol. Jackson- this increase in power in the cars you put them in, was it stock gears or adjustable?

It's hit and miss whether you need cam gears, or not... as some factory tolerances can end up putting things out in left field (ie: key locations on the cam and pulley's keyway, etc...) It does make things way easier when degreeing in your cams vs. offset keys like on the sohc motors.

Jackson, are the FWD S1 and LWP S1 cams degreed the same as the stock centerlines? (I assume so, as you installed the LWP cams with stock gears?)

[86Shelby]

I would have a tough time building a TIII without using adjustable cam gears. After gaining around 75 whp by simply adjusting the cam timing(most came from the intake adjustments) I don't see a point in crossing my fingers and hoping that they are at least close. The night before going to the dyno I had set them to the stock specs- stock head & cams.

The LW Stage 1 cams I had in my RT had a fantastic powerband, nice idle and great mileage. It was good enough to be able to blow the tires away at 75 on a cold December night breaking the engine in. The ported head didn't hurt anything either.

[Directconnection]

I would have a tough time building a TIII without using adjustable cam gears. After gaining around 75 whp by simply adjusting the cam timing(most came from the intake adjustments) I don't see a point in crossing my fingers and hoping that they are at least close. The night before going to the dyno I had set them to the stock specs- stock head & cams.

The LW Stage 1 cams I had in my RT had a fantastic powerband, nice idle and great mileage. It was good enough to be able to blow the tires away at 75 on a cold December night breaking the engine in. The ported head didn't hurt anything either.

What centerlines did you find out worked best for you?

[86Shelby]

I didn't measure it afterwards. We moved one cam 4*, did a pull to see what it did, rinse and repeat. I really should measure it since my cam gears were machined incorrectly. IIRC retarding the intake and advancing the exhaust is what made the power band much more even. I'll try to get the notes from the dyno on the cam & fuel adjustments; net was 90or so whp total.

[440dart]

[QUOTE=Shadow;848995]You guys are going to hate me for saying this, but here goes. The reason I see for so much "trouble" in our community with cams is because very few take the time and know how to set them up Right.

Let's face it, the largest % of this community doesn't take the time to get their set-up working right with Stock stuff. Then they start swapping in parts to try to make things better! lol

Iam a 100% guilty of this and i relize this working on makeing my current setup even better and i got a built engine in the works h-beams and venolias sitting here reason i havnt put it together is i want it done the right way the first time and that takes patience as funds allow and all this is going in a 50k mi all origonal survivor horizion and it was garage kept its whole life

[bakes]

You know simon im now thinking your tri flow cam was not the problem after finding the bad injectors (they were spraying a stream instead of a fan ) . So i think is time to put those cams back in while the head is off.

[Shadow]

I didn't measure it afterwards. We moved one cam 4*, did a pull to see what it did, rinse and repeat. I really should measure it since my cam gears were machined incorrectly. IIRC retarding the intake and advancing the exhaust is what made the power band much more even. I'll try to get the notes from the dyno on the cam & fuel adjustments; net was 90or so whp total.

What was your total hp and tq and with what turbo and boost level?

[turbovanman²]

Shadow, I agree and you know I am guilty of it but like I keep saying, swapping cams means taking the head off, so you kinda have to gamble.


You know simon im now thinking your tri flow cam was not the problem after finding the bad injectors (they were spraying a stream instead of a fan ) . So i think is time to put those cams back in while the head is off.

Too late, just put the head back on.

I am going to get him to make me some stage 1.5's with triflow over winter, those other ones are simply too much for a DD.

[86Shelby]

What was your total hp and tq and with what turbo and boost level?

Keep in mind this dyno reads low; just wanted that out of the way. I went and looked up the old dyno thread to see if there were some numbers there, and my memory was a bit rosy for the gains from cam timing alone. This combo was good for 8.1@85 at the track in a full weight R/T; and later with 22 psi on a different dyno 321/326 but no track numbers. Turbo is a 50 trim 'E' compressor housing/ Stage 3 wheel .63A/R housing.

Here's what I wrote a few years back: "Started out with 15psi. Reached that boost by 3700 rpm. Running pig rich, steady 9:1 once 10 psi came steadily decreasing to 8.6:1. That gave me a peak of 191 hp @ 5000 rpm and 225 ft/lb at 4000 rpm. Power fell off a cliff at 5000 and was only making 125 hp at 6000 rpm."
AFR corrected and boost raised to 17psi.
"The next 5 runs we adjusted the cam timing and found great gains! All said & done we found that retarding the intake 10* and advancing the exhaust 4* gave us minimal differences (-2 to +5) hp & (+5-10) torque below 4500 rpm. After that point things really took off. At 5000 rpm we had a 15 hp gain with a gain of around 20 ft/lb. By 6000 rpm the gap widened to approximately +55 hp and +35 tq."

The night before this dyno session the cams were degreed to the specs Lonewolf gave me years ago when I bought the car: Intake:121 ATDC Exhaust:104 BTDC.

[turbovanman²]

Are you sure you retarded the intake cam? Hmmmmmm, thanks for sharing.

[MOPAR2YA]

Thanks for clarifying. The guy that did mine, we talked quite a bit about turbo cams vs. NA and he was already knowledgable, and being that... he pretty much gave me the exact same thing as a stock cam profile, with the exception of a bit more aggressive ramping even though the valve timing events were to be the same as stock (and a few more thou lift). It was he that initially told me that typically, the OEM does a pretty good job getting things right, so for what I wanted, no sense in dicking with a proven combination.

Cindy, is your profile paterned after Stephane's or was it LW?

Stephane ran our S1 cams origionally and according to him went from 9.20s to 8.90 and it continued to pull to 8600 rpm which was his redline back then. He then swapped a set of S3s which is what he ran the 8.0s and 9500+ rpms on. He also used the S1s on a car with 3in exhaust and a upgraded compressor and on the dyno made 40 hp and 50 tq and 300-500 rpm better spool as I recall. But didnt know how the OEm cams were so those numbers may be off somewhat. I personally like the S1 cams for anything on the street. Drop in and go.

[MOPAR2YA]

I had LWP stage I in my red Spirit R/T. I gotta say I was never happy with them, not even close. Maybe the profile was messed up, or maybe they were actually stage II or something. Car ran great at WOT, but had really crappy driveability, NO low end torque, very low idle vacuum (10-12 in/hg), and detonated with anything over 8 psi no matter what unless I put 100 octane in. I also had FWDP adjustable cam gears and got really good at centerlining them with Wallaces suggestions and a lot of experimentation but nothing seemed to help much.

Then I had a rocker sieze and it wiped out one of the lobes so I will very happily be putting stock cams back in. I do have a set of FWDP stage I cams and I'm eager to try those out when the time comes for my Omni.

I remember you had some issues, but never heard how it turned out. If you have the cams, messed up or not, I can have them checked out and see if something got messed up during the grind.

[turbovanman²]

Good info. I know the S3's wanted to rev to the moon whereas the stockers, not so much.

[iTurbo]

I remember you had some issues, but never heard how it turned out. If you have the cams, messed up or not, I can have them checked out and see if something got messed up during the grind.

Awesome, thanks for the offer Wallace. They are sitting on the shelf now but one of the #1 intake lobe is wiped out pretty much down to base circle after a roller siezed. I put about 40k miles on the car with those cams and I was surprised the dry film lubricant coating seemed to hold up pretty well. Ironically the car got wonderful gas mileage. I once got a little over 500 miles out of a tank of gas in that car...drove all the way across South Dakota on i-90 without stopping at all.

[MOPAR2YA]

If they didnt grind something correct it will show on the other lobes and they will make it right. I bet they may even feel bad and weld/rechrome the bad lobe? Cant hurt to try. Im glad the DFL held up, Ive had a couple people with similar mileage say its still holdeing up after 50K miles... Im here if you want to send them back for a check-up.

[MOPAR2YA]

If they didnt grind something correct it will show on the other lobes and they will make it right. I bet they may even feel bad and weld/rechrome the bad lobe? Cant hurt to try. Im glad the DFL held up, Ive had a couple people with similar mileage say its still holdeing up after 50K miles... Im here if you want to send them back for a check-up.

[OmniLuvr]

my friend used to work for schnider and then crower cams for a while, he said that there was more than a few instances were the centerlines on the cam were incorrect. Even on a cam he purchased for himself, he had to advance it like 30 degress or something crazy to get it to run right, and when he swapped it out and checked it on a cam doctor, he found that it was off. i believe the quality control is better now, but stuff can happen depending on the cam grinding tech...

[Turbo224]

Looks like I am a little late to the party, but I will chime in since I have a set of the LW S1 cams in my R/T. I have had a similar experience with my car as iturbo has had with his. I did a complete motor rebuild and added a 50 trim hybrid, fmic, S1 cams, and a couple other little things. When I got it all back together, I was pretty disappointed with how bad the low end was on the car. At 15 psi it screams all the way to redline, but anything below 4k rpms has no power. I dont think I can blame the cams as I still have stock cam gears, and the timing is just set to stock specs. The head has been milled twice, so I know that will throw off my timing. The cams that I sent to LW had actually been reground to stock specs in the past, so now they have been reground twice. Does anyone think that could throw things off? The 50 trim I have on the car has a stage 3 wheel in it which I did not originally want, so im sure a stage 2 wheel would have helped the low end power quite a bit. Eventually I will get a set of adjustable cam gears, so I hope that some fine tuning will help my low end power issue. Overall I have mixed feeling about my combination of parts. I haven't put in the proper time to tune the car yet, so I certainly cant blame the cams. If I still had stock cams, I would consider pulling the S1 cams out the drivers side of the head and swapping the stockers back in just to see what happens.

[turbovanman²]

Stage III wheel will definatley be hurting down low, and could be a big part of your issues.

The only thing be reground twice can affect is the base circle, so if its alot smaller, you'll need to run shims on the valves.

[Directconnection]

Don't forget that re-grinding a lot might mean that you go past the hardness depth.