High zinc 5w30 for the transmission?

[Ondonti]

Wondering about filling the trans with proper lube since the green freaks want our transmissions to wear out faster? I know Ramsdell won't back his transmission work unless you run dino 5w30.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I'm running 5w20 dino oil in mine. Works good.

[Ondonti]

its not the same anymore

[Force Fed Mopar]

I know, but it's working :) Not saying zinc wouldn't be good, but I don't think it's really necessary for trannies. There are millions of 5-spds running around out there w/o with no problems.

[86Shelby]

FWIW I've used Brad Penn 10w30 in my 568, shifted just fine. Not quite as good as GM synchromesh but better than any regular old 5 or 10w30 oil I tried.

[Ondonti]

Read some bad things about synchromesh and as I said, 5w30 is the only lube Ramsdell approves. The 3000gt forums get crazy about lubes and they don oil analysis because they have a much tougher time getting their transmissions to behave.There is a difference between "its fine" and oil analysis fine.

Polygon is actually the person who brought up the subject over there about normal motor oils. THey use special stuff in their transmissions and try all sorts of c0cktails. One of them was scared of new style motor oils in sketchy transmissions.

[86Shelby]

My analysis of the oil was simply how well it would allow me to shift quickly. Regular run of the mill engine oil(tried 4 or 5 different ones) allowed grinding, especially when cold. BP allowed very quick, but not quite powershifting fast shifts at all temps. Synchromesh allows me to powershift it at moderate throttle openings and never grinds; too much resistance in the trans to allow WOT powershifts.

I've heard that those 3000GT guys can get really serious about thier trans lubes.

[shackwrrr]

My analysis of the oil was simply how well it would allow me to shift quickly. Regular run of the mill engine oil(tried 4 or 5 different ones) allowed grinding, especially when cold. BP allowed very quick, but not quite powershifting fast shifts at all temps. Synchromesh allows me to powershift it at moderate throttle openings and never grinds; too much resistance in the trans to allow WOT powershifts.

I've heard that those 3000GT guys can get really serious about thier trans lubes.

I have found the same result with normal oil, 3rd gear grinds for me. I used only synchromesh the first time and it worked great. I then fuggered up an axle and I only had 2 quarts of synchromesh on the shelf, I used a half quart of dex/merc and I think it actually shifts even better than synchromesh alone.


Also I will add my transmission would never grind before I changed the oil after a clutch job. My only guess is that I drained API SL oil (high zinc) and filled it with SM(low zinc).

[Ondonti]

They were suggesting rotella but rotella doesn't have that weight range.

[135sohc]

Add a bottle of the zddp additive ?

[shackwrrr]

Add a bottle of the zddp additive ?

Might work. but the last time I bought a bottle of lucas break in additive it was 15 bucks(1 pint). But I think only a couple Oz of it will bring the ZDDP up to API SL oil levels.

[Ondonti]

Where do you hook up a bottle of that without going online?

[BadassPerformance]

I've used Redline MTL for years in a number of cars with great results.

Did Cliff build your trans? Ask him?

[turbovanman²]

Synchromesh or like JT said, Redline MTL. I've used both with no issues.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I know a guy that ran syncromesh in a brand new Ramsdell 568 and had it lock up at 1500 miles. Cliff won't warranty it if it has sycromesh.

[turbovanman²]

I know a guy that ran syncromesh in a brand new Ramsdell 568 and had it lock up at 1500 miles. Cliff won't warranty it if it has sycromesh.

That only happened once, :p

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yeah, was probably a fluke, but if Cliff don't like it...

[shackwrrr]

Where do you hook up a bottle of that without going online?

I got mine at O'reilleys

[glhs727]

Ed Peters (old chrysler failure engineeer) recommends using the HIGH MILEAGE mobil 1 5/30 because it has ZDDP in it.... we use it in all the srt-4 trans we do around here with great success....

[turbovanman²]

Ed Peters (old chrysler failure engineeer) recommends using the HIGH MILEAGE mobil 1 5/30 because it has ZDDP in it.... we use it in all the srt-4 trans we do around here with great success....

That's a good idea.

[Ondonti]

[/COLOR]
I've used Redline MTL for years in a number of cars with great results.

Did Cliff build your trans? Ask him?
No but I am getting annoyed with all the lash in my transmissions and I don't want to invest in something nicer that will go downhill quick with poor fluid choice.

Cindy, is that dino oil? Link to the real deal?
Err, that seems to be full synthetic. Another thing that Cliff does not like. I ran 5-30 full Syn Mobil 1 in my first 5 speed and it puked out a lot of shavings when I next drained the fluid and then lost a bearing inside when I used it as the first trans in my Duster. I think I worry more about the synchros though.

3000gt guys have talked about adding a few teaspoons of LSD friction modifier. They tend to use super thick fluids as well.

[shackwrrr]

That's a good idea.

I would bet that when he said that, the high mileage was still API SL oil. Look on the bottle, If its API SM there isn't any more zinc in it than any of the other oils, the new SN is even worse. Royal Purple is all SL still though but I expect that to change soon. Also on Amsoil, alot of it isn't even API certified.

[Ondonti]

Found some BOB oil guy info that Lucas is rich enough that 2 ounces can increase you from 800ppm to 1200ppm in 4.5 quarts, so 1oz in the trans will be a little more then 50% gain since the trans doesn't seem to be able to hold 2 qt even when you cheat and jack up the driver side of the car.

Not sure about those friction modifier suppliments for LSD's. 5w30 dino oil has always been fine with a good transmission for shifting.

[Force Fed Mopar]

The trans does hold 2.5 quarts, you just can't drain it all out unless you have a drain plug installed (or take the cover loose, if you have an early 5-spd/4-spd).

[Ondonti]

I use drains on most of my transmissions but I can't put in that much fluid unless I cheat.

[DodgeZdad]

I'm using Amsoil's 5-30 Manual Synchromesh Trans. Fluid in my worn out t-850. Shifts better when cold, about the same warm, but seems to quiet the trans when hot.

[83rampage]

This is probably the only application were Amsoil may actually shine. The "25,000 mile" (the one with NO API certification) oil was loaded with ZDDP, but I'm not sure about that anymore.

As far as synthetic vs. dino oil, if it has the same API rating (SL,SM etc) the additive package will be similar. The reason being is in order to pass the API test, it will have limitations on the additives, and that will not change based on the base stock.

If anyone is actually interested in doing an oil analysis on a certain oil, it may be useful to them to know generally speaking the oil analysis company will do an oil analysis for free on a new sample (as long as you send in a used sample with it). This would take the guesswork out of wondering about the ZDDP content of that oil.

[Ondonti]

Cliff Ramsdell always worried about the synthetic being "too slippery." I think thats why some people are interested in friction modifiers. Synthetic in our trans is supposedly a way to let your synchros die faster.

I don't really understand why it makes a difference in a mechanical connection. When you shift a trans you should shift clean and hard. If you shift really gingering you are creating extra wear.

[83rampage]

Cliff Ramsdell always worried about the synthetic being "too slippery."

I saw your comment about "slippery" and I couldn't resist bringing this back up. If you need a chuckle give this a read. :p

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?56877-Oil-additives

[bfarroo]

I've heard the brad penn oil has higher levels of ZDDP compared to other oils. Haven't tried it personally but will keep on eye on this thread. I'm currently running synchromesh in the 568 but will definitely change it out if I'm going to have issues.

http://penngrade1.com/Default.aspx

[BadassPerformance]

Cliff Ramsdell always worried about the synthetic being "too slippery." I think thats why some people are interested in friction modifiers. Synthetic in our trans is supposedly a way to let your synchros die faster.

I don't really understand why it makes a difference in a mechanical connection. When you shift a trans you should shift clean and hard. If you shift really gingering you are creating extra wear.

The synchros have stop rings with pa dmaterial on them, maybe he was thinking it would not work as well? Not sure why? I woudl expect synthetic 5w30 is designed to be similar lubricity to dino 5w30? ... if that was the case the ATF they came with would work better for the pads, and mayeb thats why MTL and some of the thinner (yet higher viscosity) trans oils work well?

[Ondonti]

I am not much for posturing but when someone sells a product, says "no no" and also doesn't tell you to buy some fancy product their buddy sells, I figure its because they have seen problems in their products.

The shelby cars called out Mobil 1 back in the day but not in the trans? Thats why I think there is more to it then indirect science. I also don't think opinions go very far either. BITOG threads always suck so its not like there is ever an agreed upon answer. Never any answers on 7 year long threads analyzing oils and trans fluids on the 3000gt forums. The true answer for the 3000gt guys is the fact that there is a dealer fill called Diamond something and it was never available in the US easily so thats what some people tried to get their hands on.
Remember how crazy the original 41te was about having the perfect fluid?

Its possible that we are all missing the point. There is something about the transmission that called out cheap pos 5w30 even though the fluid basically never gets changed and would be a tiny expense. Now, the oil that they called out no longer exists.

I do think that the environmental front is probably supported by car manufacturers. So many of those reliable Hondas in the junkyard are all slider cams. Easy way to kill the old car fleet is to destroy it through Federally mandated improper maintenance. Makes me scared to run my Starlet's stock motor. It then all comes back around to everyone but car lovers getting what they want.

Now, what about the superlight Shockproof? Something that is not meant to burn in the engine and doesn't give a crap about API might be nice.
http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=8

[BadassPerformance]

The shelby cars called out Mobil 1 back in the day but not in the trans?

Ya know, they didnt specify it as Mobil 1 for the trans, but none of the non-shelby cars did for the engien either. Why? Gotta remember that Shelby is quite the salesman and having the best oil at teh time in his cars and the plaques on the cars.. all good stuff. Manual trans? Nobody ever buys a brand new car thinkin, wow, I wonder whats in the trans and if I'll ever have to change it? ... so no need to promote it... seriously, if they cared more an 87 CSX sure as hell wouldn't have ATF in the A520! LOL!

As far as factory recommended... I have various documentation about our trans' that staes ALL of the following:

80w90 gear oil - for racing, and not for winter, LOL!
ATF - factory fill
5w30 - recommended various places as the correct fluid

Funny thing, with so many different trans' none of these references say what trans th efluid is for... like they are interchangeable? or just poorly documented, LOL

As far as Ramsdell? From his Chrysler tech point of view, 5w30 is th esafest of the 3 fluids Chrysler promoted (listed above) and if he did not personally use a fluid, why would he recommend it? Also, there was one issue with a customer of his using something different, mayeb syncromesh? ... but others have used it succesfully, so who knows

[Ondonti]

I think the oil analysis that I have seen might be inconclusive about many things, but the Pennzoil syncromesh is a problem. Huge increases in metal in the oil on back to back blackstone tests. GM version does not have the mountain of results against it and at least one good report but not proven good. Just one good report that people called into question.

Light Shockproof + synchromesh though? Or just all redline. Or the thick shockproof + synchromesh. All super light Synchromesh? The time I tried Synchromesh I still only ran it 1qt or maybe only a half. If the fluid doesn't mattery and "slippery" is not a point, then what is synchromesh all about. We may not be calling a fluid slippery but obviously friction is needed on the synchros and not on the bearings/shafts.

[BadassPerformance]

IIR, GM started using syncromesh cuz ATF wasn't cutting it in their trans', probably due to shitty lubrication properties fo ATF/hydraulic fluid as it not a good lubrication oil.

The Neons call for some special mopar trans fluid and supposedly nothing else works in them... but Redline MTL seems to.

Intersting topic of why a specific fluid is used vs. another. I picked up a could A555's a while back that were used in a rally car and they had a HEAVY oil in them, almost gear lube. Probably robbed a few HP... BUT the gears and everything else looked great inside.

[Aries_Turbo]

sean runs 80w90 in his 555 iirc. he says it works great.

Brian

[Shadow]

Any of you still have your Mopar 2.2/2.5 Performance "Bible", remember what it said about MTX trannies? Something along the lines of 5w30 for the street, 10w30 for wknd warriors and 20/50 for all out race cars.

I've followed that from day 1 and am yet to hurt Any MTX tranny I've run. + as most of you are aware, I've only run Mobil 1 10w30 in the Charger with 0 issue.

I remember hearing what Cliff said, but I also remember taking it with a grain of salt as I hadn't encountered anything like what he was talking about IMOE.

After hearing all the horror stories and problems others have been having, I'd be afraid to try anything different now! :bolt:

[83rampage]

I will try to corner the lubrication specialist from our lube supplier at work and see what sort of oil they would recommend based on the components inside the transmission. I wonder if a hydraulic/transmission oil used in tractors would work. I know it is similar to motor oil in viscosity, but the additives are different.

Just as useless comment, I have worked on manual trannys in GM vehicles, and the Isuzu tranny in my kids 97 Cavalier requirse syncomesh, the Getrag in my 2001 requires ATF.

[Ondonti]

What exactly is the point of the thinner oils. A slight economy gain? People always acted like the transmission would not shift when cold with thick fluids. I do know the 1995 Ford F150 I drove quite a few times that had junk synchros would only shift well into 2nd when the trans was hot.

[shackwrrr]

What exactly is the point of the thinner oils. A slight economy gain? People always acted like the transmission would not shift when cold with thick fluids. I do know the 1995 Ford F150 I drove quite a few times that had junk synchros would only shift well into 2nd when the trans was hot.

The synchros need to get rid of the oil fast enough to grab the cone. Thats why the f150 would shift better hot

[Force Fed Mopar]

I know I put 10w40 and a bottle of Lucas in my trans one winter, and the next day I couldn't shift to 2nd after leaving the driveway :) After a while it would, once the trans warmed up a bit I guess, but that fill came out quick and went back to 5w30. I'm running 5w20 now and it works good.

[BadassPerformance]

Any of you still have your Mopar 2.2/2.5 Performance "Bible", remember what it said about MTX trannies? Something along the lines of 5w30 for the street, 10w30 for wknd warriors and 20/50 for all out race cars.

IIR that book also lists ATF and 80w90...

Which weight do you run?


What exactly is the point of the thinner oils. A slight economy gain? People always acted like the transmission would not shift when cold with thick fluids. I do know the 1995 Ford F150 I drove quite a few times that had junk synchros would only shift well into 2nd when the trans was hot.

Its not acting... I had the trans in my first CSX apart and only had 10w40 around so used it... worked fine until winter and had to warm it up to be able to shift.


I know I put 10w40 and a bottle of Lucas in my trans one winter, and the next day I couldn't shift to 2nd after leaving the driveway :) After a while it would, once the trans warmed up a bit I guess, but that fill came out quick and went back to 5w30. I'm running 5w20 now and it works good.

Exactly

[Aries_Turbo]

i think im going to try 5w30 in the 523 going into my k car and add just a touch of that lucas break in stuff to get the zddp up for anti wear.

i wonder if rotella 5w40 would work well though. its got the 5w rating for the cold....

brian

[turbovanman²]

The synchros have stop rings with pa dmaterial on them, maybe he was thinking it would not work as well? Not sure why? I woudl expect synthetic 5w30 is designed to be similar lubricity to dino 5w30? ... if that was the case the ATF they came with would work better for the pads, and mayeb thats why MTL and some of the thinner (yet higher viscosity) trans oils work well?

Cliff is right to a point, the synchro's need some friction to work, as they grab and speed up, stopping the gear clash, if the oil is too good, the synchro's won't speed up and you'll wear them faster and clash.

As for heavy bearing wear using other oils, IE Brent, I call poppy c*ck except if using ATF as that stuff is crap for bearings.


Ya know, they didnt specify it as Mobil 1 for the trans, but none of the non-shelby cars did for the engien either. Why? Gotta remember that Shelby is quite the salesman and having the best oil at teh time in his cars and the plaques on the cars.. all good stuff. Manual trans? Nobody ever buys a brand new car thinkin, wow, I wonder whats in the trans and if I'll ever have to change it? ... so no need to promote it... seriously, if they cared more an 87 CSX sure as hell wouldn't have ATF in the A520! LOL!

As far as factory recommended... I have various documentation about our trans' that staes ALL of the following:

80w90 gear oil - for racing, and not for winter, LOL!
ATF - factory fill
5w30 - recommended various places as the correct fluid

Funny thing, with so many different trans' none of these references say what trans th efluid is for... like they are interchangeable? or just poorly documented, LOL

As far as Ramsdell? From his Chrysler tech point of view, 5w30 is th esafest of the 3 fluids Chrysler promoted (listed above) and if he did not personally use a fluid, why would he recommend it? Also, there was one issue with a customer of his using something different, mayeb syncromesh? ... but others have used it succesfully, so who knows

See above and I think Fleckster said they switched from 5w30 to ATF because the Neon's were using ATF or something to that affect to every other trans now got it instead.

As for gear oil, yep, if you live in a cold climate, forget it unless its designed for it. Years ago, had a Geo Metro come in for grinding, hard shifting etc, turns out he had a tranny service done and they put gear oil in, spec was 5w30 engine oil, changed it out, fixed.


IIR, GM started using syncromesh cuz ATF wasn't cutting it in their trans', probably due to shitty lubrication properties fo ATF/hydraulic fluid as it not a good lubrication oil.

The Neons call for some special mopar trans fluid and supposedly nothing else works in them... but Redline MTL seems to.

Intersting topic of why a specific fluid is used vs. another. I picked up a could A555's a while back that were used in a rally car and they had a HEAVY oil in them, almost gear lube. Probably robbed a few HP... BUT the gears and everything else looked great inside.

ATF sucks, saw many a chewed out T5 input and output shaft due to that crap, switched to Redline or synchromesh, didn't happen again.

I think Neon's call for ATF except maybe the SRT, have to check at work.


sean runs 80w90 in his 555 iirc. he says it works great.

Brian

Does he live where its warm?

[DodgeZdad]

SRT-4's call for ATF+4 with Fiction Modifier [04318060AB]. I don't know why it needs additional FM except to quiet the Quaifi . It works good and I've made hundred's of pedal on the medal shifts. First problem with the trans. for me was after had changed the fluid and didn't add the FM. It popped out of gear while shifting to third while driving slow in town. I think the fork is warn or bent.

ATF+4 is like a 20w oil with FM for reduced shudder from the bands in the Automatics,

[Aries_Turbo]

Does he live where its warm?

no. he lives an hour north of me. the car doesnt see winter driving but it does see some cold weather.

brian

[Ondonti]

I am interested in standard plus some lucas breakin too. Thats what I have been thinking but its a fun topic to keep other ideas going. Seems from that old thread someone posted that Rotella is no longer what we loved it for.

I know the semi truck shops were forced to change to earth friendly oil or their motors would lose their warranty thanks probably to political pressure and not giving a crap about the financial results or blown motos.

[135sohc]

The little blue bottles of snot (STP oil treatment) claim to be rich in zddp. Everyone from the corner gas station to walmart, napa and the hardware store sells the stuff.

If your choosing to use 'gear oil' (gears and bearings wont complain thats for sure!) just make sure its listed as being safe for yellow metals: brass, copper, bronze ect.

[black86glhs]

Use gl-4 gear oil and you will be fine.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[bakes]

The little blue bottles of snot (STP oil treatment) claim to be rich in zddp. Everyone from the corner gas station to walmart, napa and the hardware store sells the stuff.

If your choosing to use 'gear oil' (gears and bearings wont complain thats for sure!) just make sure its listed as being safe for yellow metals: brass, copper, bronze ect.http://www.stp.com/products/oil-additives/oil-treatment/

is this the stuff??

[shackwrrr]

http://www.stp.com/products/oil-additives/oil-treatment/

is this the stuff??

Yeah, thicker than gorilla snot

[turbovanman²]

What about the flat tappet additives? I have some that I add to my old school V8 customers, its loaded with Zinc.

[135sohc]

When I first mentioned adding a zddp additive thats what I meant.

[Shadow]

Which weight do you run?



I've only run Mobil 1 10w30 in the Charger with 0 issue.



From my previous post.