Peeking in the door of the hybrid room, got some questions.

[shackwrrr]

I just got a free 2007 PT cruiser head (50,000 miles on it) and I am looking around at what it will take to put it on my shadow's 2.5.

Is there anywhere I can get all the information in 1 place, like what holes to plug, where to drill for the returns and where to put the oil in?

I know a little bit about plugging the holes and what not but has anyone used the newer head with the extra crank vent hole in the front?

Everything on this newer head should be the same as an SRT head right?

And my final question is, I see on the vendor sites that the 2.5 forged pistons can be run in a 16v hybrid, can the stock pistons be run too or do the forged have a deeper dish?

[turbovanman²]

Check the hybrid section, its all there.

Yes, you can use stock 2.5 pistons, I believe the 2.2's need notching to clear the valves, hence why most just go aftermarket as they will clear with no mods. AFAIK, the piston CC is the same, they were for me when I bought some Venolia's a few years ago.

[shackwrrr]

Check the hybrid section, its all there.

Yes, you can use stock 2.5 pistons, I believe the 2.2's need notching to clear the valves, hence why most just go aftermarket as they will clear with no mods. AFAIK, the piston CC is the same, they were for me when I bought some Venolia's a few years ago.

I know if I had nothing to do today I would scour the forums and find it but right now Im in the middle of a move, and its kinda hard when you get 1 sentence of good information for every three pages of threads. Maybe this could be the effort to get all the information on how to in one place.

[trannybuster]

^^I hear ya..ditto

[shackwrrr]

Still in the process of moving so I haven't searched much. Once I have time I will try to get all the data in one place.

[OmniLuvr]

that would be AWSOME!!!!!!!! im tired of trying to read through, then following this link, then following another link that leads to no where? what headgasket blah blah blah (even though the head gasket one has been answered recently :) )

[roachjuice]

someone told me to buy 2 head gaskets and take one a and cut the rivets out of it and use the compression layers and stack them on the other headgasket?:confused:

[Juggy]

im just using a felpro gasket for the DOHC head.

theres a thread about headgaskets. brian slowe mentioned he runs a factory felpro so they are def good for 600+whp
i have things apart right now but i can take some pics today of how mine was setup. was told the engine was built by FWD P, the engine is only short of some forged slugs otherwise they are 30 over mahles (and the aftermarket oversized mahles seem to be stronger then the stock ones)

[turbovanman²]

someone told me to buy 2 head gaskets and take one a and cut the rivets out of it and use the compression layers and stack them on the other headgasket?:confused:

That's what Cometic does to make a thicker gasket.

[ShadowBrad]

I built a 2.2L Hybrid engine, and I used an older 2.0L Neon head...So most of this will apply...

Holes that need plugged:
- The 3 oil drain holes in the front of the 2.5L block need to be plugged and MUST be flush with the deck of the block. The machine shop can do this when they deck your block.

- The crankcase vent hole in the front of the block(beside one of the oil drains) must be plugged and MUST be flush with the deck of the block. If you lay the neon head-gasket on the block for reference, I THINK you can drill a hole at an angle so it matches with the Neon/PT DOHC head's vent hole. I ran mine external but I've seen pictures of people that drilled a hole at an angle and did it that way.

- The oil feed hole(in the block) for the 8V head must be plugged and MUST be flush with the deck of the block. Oil feed for the DOHC head can be run from the front of the block(where the turbo oil feed is) to one of the lifter galleys in the head. I removed the plug from the front lifter galley on the transmission end of the head and ordered a turbo oil feed line from TU and used that to supply oil to the head.

- The 3 oil drain passages in the back of the DOHC head must be plugged(I used aluminum plugs so they would expand with the head at the same rate) but these do not have to be flush with the surface of the head as they hang over the back of the block.

- Optional but a good idea: Under the one rear(tranny end) cam bearing cap there are 2 oil holes that go into the head. One of these holes comes from the back of the head from the 2.0/2.4 oil feed hole. I can't remember which hole it is at the moment, but one can be tapped and plugged so that oil pressure does not go into this passage and put pressure on the head gasket. Some people have said they had oil leaks around the right-rear head bolt(that's where the 2.0/2.4 oil feed to the head is located). I attached a picture...It's one of the holes with the red X's. I don't have a head to look at right now, but it is ONE of those two. Just use an air-nozzle and blow air through them and see which one blows air out the rear head-bolt hole on the head's surface. WARNING: Make sure you get the correct hole or the oil squirters on that cam cap won't work. And make sure you get all the metal chips from tapping out of the passage.

- External oil drains must be ran from the back of the head down to the oil pan or you can drill extra holes in the block next to the drain hole for the turbo. I elected to drill holes in my block and tapped them for 1/2" NPT fittings. I also drilled 2 holes in the back of the head and tapped them for 1/2" NPT as well. Make sure these are drilled as close to the bottom of the rocker box as possible so that oil does not pool in the back side of the head. I just used barb fittings and Good-Year hose that is normally used for oil filter relocation kits. I planned to upgrade to braided stainless line and fittings but never got around too it. If you use hose and barb fittings make sure that your hose is safe to use with HOT OIL. Heater core hose will NOT work, it will degrade, swell, and pieces will come off and go down into your oil pan.

Other stuff:
- With the log-style exhaust manifold I built, the braided oil-line kit that TU sells for your turbo was too short to reach my turbo. Had I located my turbo closer to the brake booster it would have fit but this all depends on your turbo location.

- If you're building a 2.5L you CAN use the stock 8V 2.5L pistons. They also make forged pistons for a 2.5L Hybrid, FWDP sells those. If you're building a 2.2L, you MUST order custom pistons with the correct valve reliefs. I ordered 2.2L Wiseco pistons from TU, but FWD has Venolia pistons for the 2.2L Hybrid engine as well. Also, I don't know if the stock 2.5L pistons will clear with aftermarket cams.

- The stock Neon/PT head-gasket is perfectly fine to use. Just get the one for the type of car your head came off of. I used a 1997 Neon DOHC gasket(that's what my DOHC head came from) and didn't have to make any modifications to the gasket to use it. NOTE: If you use the stock DOHC head-gasket you MUST use the stock radiator hose connection on the head. The coolant passages in the head-gasket are staggered in size to get the correct coolant flow through the block and head when using the stock t-stat location. If you remove the freeze-plug from the transmission end of the head and machine it flat and mount your t-stat housing and upper radiator hose there, you must adjust the size of the coolant holes in the head gasket. I don't know how they need to be adjusted, I just know that they need it for proper cooling when running the t-stat at the trans end of the head. Because of this I would recommend just using the stock location for the t-stat housing then there is no need to modify the head-gasket.

- FWDP sells a set of ARP head-studs specifically for hybrid engine applications. I would recommend buying these. They are reusable and provide great clamping force to help keep your head-gasket sealed in high HP applications.

- A custom intake manifold is worth the money or the time it takes to fabricate one if you have the equipment to do so. There are a couple of the aluminum DOHC intakes that will clear the distributor(I think I used a 1997 Stratus 2.4L intake but I honestly don't remember for sure.) but none of them will clear the oil filter. I used a universal filter relocation kit from JEGS and moved my oil filter over to where the charcoal canister used to be. You can also get a kit to run your distributor backwards off of one of the camshafts, but with a custom intake this isn't necessary.

- Cams: The I used the stock 2.0L cams from a Neon. From what I have read these give better power over the 2.4L cams, at least with a 2.2L Hybrid anyways. I'm not sure which cams would be better for a 2.5L Hybrid.

- Cam gears: I would recommend ordering the Hybrid cam gears from FWDP. I know they are expensive but they are well worth it and make it very easy to dial in your cam timing. If you have access to machining equipment I'm sure you could make your own, adjustable or not.

- Timing belt: FWDP sells a round-tooth timing belt specifically for the Hybrid engines.

- Block: I would recommend using a Common Block as they are stronger than the earlier blocks. It is very easy to make lots of power with a Hybrid engine with the correct turbo so having a strong short-block is pretty much a necessity.

- Injectors: I would recommend a minimum of the +40 injectors. 72lb injectors would be even better and will probably supply all the fuel you would ever need for a street car if you have the ability to tune for them.

- Turbo: I used a Turbonetics T3/T4 hybrid turbo. I had a stage 3 exhaust wheel in a .63A/R, internally gated housing. The compressor was a T4E 60Trim. There are plenty of turbo options that will match the airflow you will need, so just get one that fits your power goals. Since I had an internal waste gate I used this V-Band waste gate housing from ATP Turbo. http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-WGT-023&Category_Code=WGT These new ones look like they are cast but I'm sure they are just as good as the older welded together ones.

I'm not sure what else I am forgetting, but I'm sure there is more. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask me. If I know the answer to your question I will answer you as best as I can.

- Picture of the head with the oil holes marked. NOTE: ONLY plug ONE of these holes, and make sure you have the right one. You can use an air nozzle on your air compressor to see which of these 2 holes goes into the rear head-bolt hole. If you plug the wrong hole the oil squirters on this cam cap will not function.
38511

[83rampage]

Thanks for the comprehensive write-up. I have read bits and pieces before but you did mention a few new things.

One question I have is what restriction did you use in the oil supply to the head? Also did you modify the cooling system at all or the sizes of the cooling passages in the head gasket?

I'm thinking of going reverse cooling with an electric water pump.

[roachjuice]

The cooling passages pretty much line up.

[83rampage]

The cooling passages pretty much line up.

I was actually wondering about the size of the opening. Seems to me they do vary in size from one end of the head gasket to the other.

[ShadowBrad]

The passages are smaller on the water-pump end of the engine since the pump and the t-stat are both at the same end of the motor. There was one coolant hole in the head-gasket on the right rear of the engine that didn't line up with anything...it was about an 1/8" hole...I just marked it and drilled that hole into the deck of the block.

As for the oil supply to the head. The only restriction I had was the straight 1/8NPT->AN fitting that came with TU's turbo oil-line kit had a pretty small hole in it, I screwed that fitting into the lifter galley port and just ran it like that. I'm sure I could have restricted it down further as I had an oil gauge in the other lifter galley and it would read 50-60psi cold and 30-40psi hot but with the 2 large drains that I had, I never had a problem with to much oil in the head that I ever noticed. Some people that done this conversion used a needle valve to vary the oil pressure to the head but I have no clue what pressure they set it to when the engine was hot.

[jl93sundance]

Brad, do you have any pics of your set up? Also which timing belt tensioner did you use? One last question, what plugs did you use for the head?

[ShadowBrad]

Sadly, I do not have any pictures of the car I built. I had a computer crash about a year ago and somehow they weren't on my backup hard-drive. I have since parted out the car and junked the shell(it was rusted way beyond repair). But, I do have some pictures of the head on my other computer I can post up tomorrow when I get home.

For the timing-belt tensioner, I used the stock one, but I had to move it up higher to the same hole as the bottom of the power-steering pump. Since the PS pump bracket still needed to use this hole, that spaced the tensioner out to far due to the thickness of the bracket. Now, ideally I would have liked to mill the appropriate amount(the thickness of the PS pump bracket) off the back of the center part of the tensioner. Since I didn't have access to a mill and it was one of the last things I needed that day to get the car ready to start for the first time, I flipped the tensioner around backwards(so it was closer to the block) then spaced it out appropriately with washers. I never had a problem with it mounted this way until the car sat all winter outside and when I went to start it in the spring the tensioner pulley was froze up, so when I bought a new tensioner I had my local machine shop mill down the back of the tensioner the thickness of the PS pump bracket and mounted it facing the proper direction.

As for the plugs I used in the head. I am assuming you are talking about the plugs for the 3 oil drains on the back of the head. My machine shop took care of this part for me. I just told them I needed the holes plugged and that if possible I wanted the plugs to be made of aluminum(so they would expand at the same rate as the head). I do know that they threaded the holes with a tapered pipe thread(not sure on the size) and just screwed the plugs into the holes. As I said in my first post, the oil drains on the head do NOT need to be flush with the head's surface as they hang over the back of the block.

For the 3 oil passages in the front of the block, I used 3, square-headed, solid(not hollow), pipe plugs. I also had the machine shop do this step as well. They just drilled out the holes to the correct size, then threaded them with a tapered pipe thread, screwed in the pipe plugs and machined them flat with the deck of the block. The crank case vent hole, and the oil feed hole for the 8V head were threaded with a standard bolt thread and bolts were used to plug the holes. They ran the bolts clear till they bottomed out in the threads so that they would tighten up and they also used anaerobic(sp?) sealant on the threads.

Also, one other thing I forgot to mention in my first post. I mentioned that after you plug the holes in the block, you could take the Neon/PT/SRT4 head gasket and lay it on the block and mark and drill a hole at an angle(it will go into either the stock vent hole or one of the oil drains, I can't remember which) into the deck of the block so that you may use the internal crankcase vent passage in the Neon/PT head. If you don't drill this passage in the block and you run your vent externally, you will want to plug that hole in the surface of the head as well. This plug can been steel(since it is so small) and does NOT have to be flush with the deck.

Also, the head alignment pins for the 8V head need to be removed from the block. The Neon/PT head uses alignment collars around 2 of the corner head bolt holes. Some people have done the conversion w/o using these collars, but I would NOT recommend doing this as it can allow the head to be misaligned on the block. You can buy the collars at any dealership and they are(well they used to be) only a couple dollars each. Make a note of which bolt holes they go in and take them to the machine shop with your block and have them machine out the tops of those head bolt holes so that the collars are a mild press-fit into them. Also make sure they are pressed into the block deep enough so that they allow the head to tighten down completely.

I'm pretty sure this covers the stuff I forgot the first time around. If you need to know anything else, please, feel free to ask me. I would like to get all of this info, especially about all of the little things, in one central location, so that people won't feel so intimidated about doing this conversion. It is a lot of work, and there are a lot of little things that need to be done to the block and head, but I think it is still a worth-while conversion and I don't believe that it is any harder to do than a full 2.4L swap. I loved my hybrid engine and once work picks up I fully intend on building another 2.2L Hybrid engine, buying another '88 Shadow, and converting it to RWD. I was also thinking of trying my hand at building a RWD 3.0L Shadow as well but I'm not sure about the transmission selection. I would love to use the Supra R154 trans for both my Hybrid and 3.0L RWD conversions but for the 3.0L the bell-housing might be a problem. I just like to be different I guess. =)

[Juggy]

to plug the oil drain holes on the back side of the head, you can use 11mm freeze plugs rather then tapping the hole.

[ShadowBrad]

to plug the oil drain holes on the back side of the head, you can use 11mm freeze plugs rather then tapping the hole.

You sir are correct. Just so they are plugged and sealed, as there is no pressure against them.