TM Pump Gas Record?

[Directconnection]

What is the whp pump gas record on +40's with *NO* alky injection? Actually, not really interested in who is king, but moreso where the general consensus is at from people listing their experiences.

I'm just curious how far one can go on a decent 3-bar cal on 91 octane. I know every setup is different, and especially so if running a T-III (an advantage).

[turbovanman²]

Should be in the lounge but subscribed.

So far, 13.4 at 18 psi, pig van, :nod:

[Directconnection]

I meant to say in terms of whp, not ET.

[Pat]

Didn't Aaron do 402 whp on pump gas? I don't recall hearing about any impressive ET's but I recall talk of the dyno runs.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Rick D made like 440hp on +40's with his Masi GLHS.

[Pat]

Rick D made like 440hp on +40's with his Masi GLHS.

on pump gas?

[turbovanman²]

I meant to say in terms of whp, not ET.

Track times should be number 1, dyno's are for queen's, :p

[Directconnection]

on pump gas?

Rick and I were talking a bit last fall, so I went back and pulled out one of his emails to me about his old Masi powered GLHS. I won't copy/paste as I don't want to breach our trust, but he said: 443whp on 100 octane unleaded race gas with the +40's maxed out and almost 100psi fuel pressure at 24-ish psi boost.

Not quite pump gas territory, but 100 octane ain't too bad. (btw: can you really run this 100 octane unleaded he speaks of and still be O2 friendly?)

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------


Track times should be number 1, dyno's are for queen's, :p

True, BUT the reason I want to see whp #s is because then I/we can see the power limitations, and then apply that into said vehicle platform to see what ET you can run. The chassis don't give a rat's azz if you are running 87 pump or 546,789 octane. Fuel = HP possibility. Ya see?

10 years ago, 350whp on pump gas was scoffed at.... 440dart and his T-III SC6152 made 330whp I think on pump gas and a tired motor (90 psi in one cyl) this past spring.

[turbovanman²]

Rick and I were talking a bit last fall, so I went back and pulled out one of his emails to me about his old Masi powered GLHS. I won't copy/paste as I don't want to breach our trust, but he said: 443whp on 100 octane unleaded race gas with the +40's maxed out and almost 100psi fuel pressure at 24-ish psi boost.

Not quite pump gas territory, but 100 octane ain't too bad. (btw: can you really run this 100 octane unleaded he speaks of and still be O2 friendly?)

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------



True, BUT the reason I want to see whp #s is because then I/we can see the power limitations, and then apply that into said vehicle platform to see what ET you can run. The chassis don't give a rat's azz if you are running 87 pump or 546,789 octane. Fuel = HP possibility. Ya see?

10 years ago, 350whp on pump gas was scoffed at.... 440dart and his T-III SC6152 made 330whp I think on pump gas and a tired motor (90 psi in one cyl) this past spring.

Just buggin.

Not sure what you mean about the 100 octane gas? You can get unleaded 100 that won't kill anything if that's what you mean.

[Directconnection]

Just buggin.

Not sure what you mean about the 100 octane gas? You can get unleaded 100 that won't kill anything if that's what you mean.

Who makes it and what's it's moniker?

I remember about 6-8 years back Wallace was raving about an octane supplement from Torco. O2 safe, and raised the octane quite a bit. But, that's the last I heard of it. If it was really that good, i'd think everyone would have jumped on that bandwagon. Any take on the Torco stuff?

[BadAssPerformance]

+1, and 100 Sunoco comes out of a pump, right into my Shadow... it has lived on 100 since I put it together a decade ago... the original (1987) O2 died a coupel years ago, probably from old age rather than fuel.

Shadow - 12.89@104mph ~ 230whp... 19psi on 2bar cal S2 LM, 42pph... stockety, stock, stock long block with zero porting

Z - I cannot remember when I switched to 110, but the 2.2L went 121mph ~ 400whp on 100... the 2.4L went 130mph (well over 400whp) on 100...

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------


Who makes it and what's it's moniker?

The most popular is Sunoco 100 octane a.k.a. Cam 2 (Same stuff as Sunoco bought Cam2 several years ago)

I have also used Rockett Brand 100 octane

^^^ Both no-lead

Somebody else made 104 no-lead, I forget who

[CSX194]

What is the fuel they hand Out at the pump gas races? It's some sort of oxygenated pump gas. 93 if I remember correctly.

[boost geek]

Should be in the lounge but subscribed.

So far, 13.4 at 18 psi, pig van, :nod:

You always run race fuel. Plus quite often you add that other stuff to your fuel, toluene, etc.

I run 94 with alky for higher boost.

[Directconnection]

I can get 94 at the pump, but that's it (a Sunoco station)

[Pat]

Just an opinion Steve, but if you're looking for HP on pump gas, my thought has always been you need to build for rpm. HP is just a function of torque and rpm. With a given piston/chamber design, you're only going to be able to handle so much cylinder pressure at a given octane level. Cylinder pressure makes torque. If you only can make so much torque, you need to make it high in the rpm band to make the big HP numbers. Of course, there are a ton of other variables that come into play for knock resistance, but generally, the chamber/piston is the biggest part of that equation.

My observation is that there are many who put down big dyno numbers, but due to the power curve they're making, they don't ET very well for the HP number. I'd much rather have a 400/400 engine with a wide powerband than 325/450 with a narrow powerband. I'll definitely be quicker in the 400/400 car, especially if it's a stick car like yours is.

On my T-III Shadow back when it was a full weight street car, with an FWD cal, I think I went low to mid 12's on pump gas and drag radials trapping somwhere around 114 mph at about 17-18 psi. More than that and I was getting a bit of knock retard, so I backed it off. I'm sure with more tuning and slicks, it was an easy 11 second car on pump and probably 310-330 ish whp.

[Directconnection]

Just an opinion Steve, but if you're looking for HP on pump gas, my thought has always been you need to build for rpm. HP is just a function of torque and rpm. With a given piston/chamber design, you're only going to be able to handle so much cylinder pressure at a given octane level. Cylinder pressure makes torque. If you only can make so much torque, you need to make it high in the rpm band to make the big HP numbers. Of course, there are a ton of other variables that come into play for knock resistance, but generally, the chamber/piston is the biggest part of that equation.

My observation is that there are many who put down big dyno numbers, but due to the power curve they're making, they don't ET very well for the HP number. I'd much rather have a 400/400 engine with a wide powerband than 325/450 with a narrow powerband. I'll definitely be quicker in the 400/400 car, especially if it's a stick car like yours is.

On my T-III Shadow back when it was a full weight street car, with an FWD cal, I think I went low to mid 12's on pump gas and drag radials trapping somwhere around 114 mph at about 17-18 psi. More than that and I was getting a bit of knock retard, so I backed it off. I'm sure with more tuning and slicks, it was an easy 11 second car on pump and probably 310-330 ish whp.

Hey Pat, talking with Jackson and Diogo lately, they told me the FWD T-III cals have been revised quite a bit, so maybe the potential is a bit more now?

I guess you can see where my initial thoughts were going with this thread... bench racing in my mind.... and just plain curious as to what others have seen.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Rick and I were talking a bit last fall, so I went back and pulled out one of his emails to me about his old Masi powered GLHS. I won't copy/paste as I don't want to breach our trust, but he said: 443whp on 100 octane unleaded race gas with the +40's maxed out and almost 100psi fuel pressure at 24-ish psi boost.

Not quite pump gas territory, but 100 octane ain't too bad. (btw: can you really run this 100 octane unleaded he speaks of and still be O2 friendly?)[COLOR="Silver"]


considering I haven't seen any info on that since he did it what? 8 years or more ago I was pretty close. I thought that he was pretty much done with the +40's at that point but wasn't sure so didn't say. I didn't know exactly what fuel he was using either.

[turbovanman²]

Who makes it and what's it's moniker?

I remember about 6-8 years back Wallace was raving about an octane supplement from Torco. O2 safe, and raised the octane quite a bit. But, that's the last I heard of it. If it was really that good, i'd think everyone would have jumped on that bandwagon. Any take on the Torco stuff?

Torco is alright, Toluene also works just as well as any additive and its cheap, doesn't damage anything.


+1, and 100 Sunoco comes out of a pump, right into my Shadow... it has lived on 100 since I put it together a decade ago... the original (1987) O2 died a coupel years ago, probably from old age rather than fuel.

Somebody else made 104 no-lead, I forget who

You guys are lucky, pump race gas and E85, we get nothing, :(

VP maybe?


You always run race fuel. Plus quite often you add that other stuff to your fuel, toluene, etc.

I run 94 with alky for higher boost.

Not last time, pump gas and no alky, and yeah, I run Toluene, its still pump gas, :p

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------




On my T-III Shadow back when it was a full weight street car, with an FWD cal, I think I went low to mid 12's on pump gas and drag radials trapping somwhere around 114 mph at about 17-18 psi. More than that and I was getting a bit of knock retard, so I backed it off. I'm sure with more tuning and slicks, it was an easy 11 second car on pump and probably 310-330 ish whp.

Your a mad man, :hail:

[86Shelby]

My best times in the R/T have been 8.1-8.2 in the 1/8th at 85-87 mph with 91. As far as dyno #'s go 321tq 326hp 20-21psi, mine weren't run with straight 91 octane pump gas; it was close to a 50/50 mix of Shell 91 and who-knows-what-brand 100 from the local Harley dealership.

[Pat]

Hey Pat, talking with Jackson and Diogo lately, they told me the FWD T-III cals have been revised quite a bit, so maybe the potential is a bit more now?

I guess you can see where my initial thoughts were going with this thread... bench racing in my mind.... and just plain curious as to what others have seen.

I've heard they've been revised also. I'm a little skeptical about whether or not they make that much more power. More boost on pump gas, yes. More power I don't really know. More boost on the same octane with the same motor to me says less timing. What the ideal balance is between timing and boost to make the most power on pump I'm not really sure about.

[Ondonti]

I would call shenanigans on this all but I guess its okay for the O.P. to change his thread to be whatever he wants.

Pump gas records are only as valid as the fuel comparison. Not comparable fuels, not comparable HP levels. E85 and 100 are definitely not 'pump gas' even if they are fuels you can get from a drive up pump. 91 octane is man fuel and can make a lot of power with methanol injection.

The FWD III cals seem very well matched for a largeish turbo.

[Directconnection]

You are correct sir... I can change this to whatever I want for a thread, as did you with your 1st sentence.

I am interested in seeing people's results for 91-93 octane.... maybe I shouldn't have titled the subject line a "RECORD" though... maybe substituted "RESULTS" instead.

[shelbymopar89]

Steve,
I am nowhere close, but we had enough for that loud, old blue maro that day :eyebrows: Hell, now we could spot him 4-5 and put a bus length on him:nod:

[Directconnection]

Steve,
I am nowhere close, but we had enough for that loud, old blue maro that day :eyebrows: Hell, now we could spot him 4-5 and put a bus length on him:nod:

Hey Brent! I *have* to tell the story.....

If nobody knows Brent's immaculate '89 Shelby Daytona, then they should take a peek as it's probably the nicest resto-mod TM so far (or top 5 at least) Back when his Daytona was fully restored in it's 1st iteration, it was a 60trim in the stock T-II turbo compressor and a mildly ported head/manifolds, FM cam (.475?) 3" exhaust and a 3-bar FWD cal running 23psi on the street, I seem to recall. Probably about 270whp at the time. We both just returned from a long day at the State's biggest car show: Bonney Eagle. (1,000's of cars) Brent and I did a few burnouts and WOT blasts, but he wanted to race the car against *something* because he was unsure how fast it really was. RT-1 in Bath is basically like a highway (65mph) with 2 lanes each way. We came upon a couple WRX's, but they didn't bite on Brent's BOV. A few generic ricers crossed our paths, but still a no go. We went up and down that RT1 a couple times, and then Brent was like: "man, I'm just going to go home..." We were like 500 ft from his house when a mid 70's Z-28 is coming our way. Fatties in the rear, with a street squirrel SS hood scoop, throaty dual exhaust, traction bars, etc... the stereotypical "Joe Dirt" Camaro (I know, he drove a Mopar, but you get the idea) That car sounded pretty nice, and was in pretty decent shape, so it wasn't a total rat. Just as he passes us by, Brent lets off the Greddy BOV and makes the "whooosh" In which I told him: " you know Brent, to a V-8 oldschool gearhead, he probably just thought your car is a POS and blew a HG when he went by" Hehehe... so anyways, Brent did a U-ey and gave chase even though we were in a 25-30 mph zone. We caught up, as they were turning left back onto RT1 and they got on it hard with the azz end fishtailing up the road. The pavement right there sucked ballz, so Brent didn't really goose it too much when he pulled out after him. They slowed down and let us catch up about a 1/2 mile down the road. So finally, here we were in Brent's 1st big test. '89 Daytona Shelby with T-tops vs. Mr. Camaro and friends (his wife and buddy were with him) pacing about 25mph (side by side) on RT1 with traffic on our azzes as it's a 55 or 65 mph "highway of sorts" trying to free up a mile ahead of us. Brent honks 3 times, and we both go.... and the Daytona instantly pulls a car on him once we were at the top of 2nd gear and 23psi kicked in. 3rd gear.... put 3 cars on him.... 4th gear about another 7 or 8! Brent let off, and let him catch up. Brent was stoked, and couldn't wait to say "good race" or whatever to the driver... but when the Camaro pulled up, this time, their windows were rolled up, and the driver had a PISSED off look to kill attitude. Brent's motioning to him to roll down his window (mind you, we were now back down to about 40 or so) and the guy is not smiling or giving a fawk. I had to tell Brent: "um.... he's not rolling down his window, and he's not too happy... he wants to go again!" Ok..... now picture us with *our* windows both down, with the T-tops off which was adding insult to injury. 2nd run was just as bad.... as we had about a dozen lengths on him to around 120+. We turned off on our exit, and they kept going straight. Mr. Camaro was still pissed, but his buddy rolled down the passenger window and waved.

Hey Brent.... remember the hottie girl at Bonney Eagle that was displaying her BF's Eclipse? She was wearing a mini-skirt, with no panties for everyone to see as she laid back in the driver's seat.

[turbovanman²]

Hey Brent.... remember the hottie girl at Bonney Eagle that was displaying her BF's Eclipse? She was wearing a mini-skirt, with no panties for everyone to see as she laid back in the driver's seat.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, :faint: :love: :lol:

[Directconnection]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, :faint: :love: :lol:

I should show my GF your post, as I was *just* explaining to her how you are TM's biggest perv (she was wondering about who/where the parts you shipped came from)

[turbovanman²]

I should show my GF your post, as I was *just* explaining to her how you are TM's biggest perv (she was wondering about who/where the parts you shipped came from)

Sure. Perv, that's a little low, :( Who doesn't like muff, honestly? :eyebrows: :D

[shelbymopar89]

Hey Brent! I *have* to tell the story.....

If nobody knows Brent's immaculate '89 Shelby Daytona, then they should take a peek as it's probably the nicest resto-mod TM so far (or top 5 at least) Back when his Daytona was fully restored in it's 1st iteration, it was a 60trim in the stock T-II turbo compressor and a mildly ported head/manifolds, FM cam (.475?) 3" exhaust and a 3-bar FWD cal running 23psi on the street, I seem to recall. Probably about 270whp at the time. We both just returned from a long day at the State's biggest car show: Bonney Eagle. (1,000's of cars) Brent and I did a few burnouts and WOT blasts, but he wanted to race the car against *something* because he was unsure how fast it really was. RT-1 in Bath is basically like a highway (65mph) with 2 lanes each way. We came upon a couple WRX's, but they didn't bite on Brent's BOV. A few generic ricers crossed our paths, but still a no go. We went up and down that RT1 a couple times, and then Brent was like: "man, I'm just going to go home..." We were like 500 ft from his house when a mid 70's Z-28 is coming our way. Fatties in the rear, with a street squirrel SS hood scoop, throaty dual exhaust, traction bars, etc... the stereotypical "Joe Dirt" Camaro (I know, he drove a Mopar, but you get the idea) That car sounded pretty nice, and was in pretty decent shape, so it wasn't a total rat. Just as he passes us by, Brent lets off the Greddy BOV and makes the "whooosh" In which I told him: " you know Brent, to a V-8 oldschool gearhead, he probably just thought your car is a POS and blew a HG when he went by" Hehehe... so anyways, Brent did a U-ey and gave chase even though we were in a 25-30 mph zone. We caught up, as they were turning left back onto RT1 and they got on it hard with the azz end fishtailing up the road. The pavement right there sucked ballz, so Brent didn't really goose it too much when he pulled out after him. They slowed down and let us catch up about a 1/2 mile down the road. So finally, here we were in Brent's 1st big test. '89 Daytona Shelby with T-tops vs. Mr. Camaro and friends (his wife and buddy were with him) pacing about 25mph (side by side) on RT1 with traffic on our azzes as it's a 55 or 65 mph "highway of sorts" trying to free up a mile ahead of us. Brent honks 3 times, and we both go.... and the Daytona instantly pulls a car on him once we were at the top of 2nd gear and 23psi kicked in. 3rd gear.... put 3 cars on him.... 4th gear about another 7 or 8! Brent let off, and let him catch up. Brent was stoked, and couldn't wait to say "good race" or whatever to the driver... but when the Camaro pulled up, this time, their windows were rolled up, and the driver had a PISSED off look to kill attitude. Brent's motioning to him to roll down his window (mind you, we were now back down to about 40 or so) and the guy is not smiling or giving a fawk. I had to tell Brent: "um.... he's not rolling down his window, and he's not too happy... he wants to go again!" Ok..... now picture us with *our* windows both down, with the T-tops off which was adding insult to injury. 2nd run was just as bad.... as we had about a dozen lengths on him to around 120+. We turned off on our exit, and they kept going straight. Mr. Camaro was still pissed, but his buddy rolled down the passenger window and waved.

Hey Brent.... remember the hottie girl at Bonney Eagle that was displaying her BF's Eclipse? She was wearing a mini-skirt, with no panties for everyone to see as she laid back in the driver's seat.
Ahh Steve, I just smiled as you recalled the event rather well! Since that time I have made many other feel the same as he did that day and I still receive much pleasure from it. I forgot about the girl, that was awesome. Her b/f was behind the car showing his "system" to a few guys and shooting the bull and his g/f would go from setting in the back seat to getting up and leaning over the back seat to listen to her b/f. Both were equally impressive shows, I will never forgot the crowd the riced out Eclispe drew from the front, all with their cameras out taking pictures of the yellow wire loom the engine bay was covered in..........:eyebrows: The dude was probably so proud that so many people took interest in something "he put so much into" ahhhhhh I crack myself up!

[Directconnection]

The dude was probably so proud that so many people took interest in something "he put so much into" ahhhhhh I crack myself up!

Hahaha... and thanx for telling me about it after her show was all done.

Thant's funny though...

[22shelby]

back on topic here, cant telly you WHP but my heavy weight daytona went 12.66@107 on pump gas... at like 25-27 PSI :eyebrows:

[Directconnection]

back on topic here, cant telly you WHP but my heavy weight daytona went 12.66@107 on pump gas... at like 25-27 PSI :eyebrows:

If your race weight is around 3,100lbs, then you're about 295whp.

[BadAssPerformance]

22, I'm guessing you're race weight is closer to my Shadow... with more mph, so maybe ~250whp ...

[shadow88]

Pump gas and nitrous, I hit 376whp, ran mid 12's with a terrible launch.

[22shelby]

w/o me the car weighed 2750-ish on byrons scale... add my 230 LBS a$$ and 2980...+-

[Force Fed Mopar]

Pump gas and nitrous, I hit 376whp, ran mid 12's with a terrible launch.

What octane, 91 or 93?

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

Also, mpgmike just stated in another thread that somebody w/ a stock 2.5 bottom end and his ported head/intake combo made 430hp.

[turbovanman²]

What octane, 91 or 93?

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

Also, mpgmike just stated in another thread that somebody w/ a stock 2.5 bottom end and his ported head/intake combo made 430hp.

What turbo I wonder.

[onerippinturbo2]

stock mitsu:eyebrows::p

[Force Fed Mopar]

Now that would be a feat :D

Here's the thread, doesn't mention what turbo though.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?60599-mpgMike-ported-G-Head&p=841609&highlight=#post841609

[Ondonti]

Nitrous is sorta like methanol in that its not giving you true results from pump gas octane.
And the amount of documentation for 430hp would seem to put it into the category of myth. I automatically would assume that is als a calculated crank hp number as well since there is no specific statement otherwise.

[cordes]

Nitrous is sorta like methanol in that its not giving you true results from pump gas octane.
And the amount of documentation for 430hp would seem to put it into the category of myth. I automatically would assume that is als a calculated crank hp number as well since there is no specific statement otherwise.

He's going your style doing it on a stock 2.5 bottom end with 180K on it. It strains credulity to say the least.

[mpgmike]

Get ahold of Dez and get it right from the pony's mouth. He's on here and one of the other forums. His email should be listed in case he isn't active anymore.

Mike

[trannybuster]

VP stuff is expensive. Around here I have three sources for 110 leaded and 115(or 105) cant remember unleaded, all sunoco. I like the E85 though,its not everwhere but there are quite a few pumps nearish by...I wont even bother with 91+, gotta drop the timing so much its a dog..

[Ondonti]

He's going your style doing it on a stock 2.5 bottom end with 180K on it. It strains credulity to say the least.
I would guess he is not doing it on hackjob engine management. My experience doing things hacky and the TD/TM history of changing pistons in the pits would say that is a bad idea. While there are good tuning options, few people still have the resources or products needed to get things right.