Line pressure mod in valve body and theory

[Torqueflite]

Here's a mod that will up your line pressure beyond the max you can get out of it with the adjuster screw but without finding a new spring, buiding a spacer, etc. This will up line pressure in forward gears, but won't affect line pressure in reverse. Drill a hole in the passage marked in yellow. . . that's it. Drill it from the other side of the valve body though.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n90/Kil-time/VBwheretodrillforlinepressuremod-1.jpg
The theory of how the reg valve works and how the mod affects it:
This passage is where "one of two" of the "reaction areas" on the pressure regulator valve sit (a reaction area of a valve is the part of a valve where the oil pressure pushes on it to make it move). Oil is fed into this passage and pushes on the regulator valve. As the pressure builds up and reaches a certain pressure, the reg valve starts to move against the spring, until the valve opens up an exhaust port. This is how line pressure is created.

What does this mod do? It's easy if you think of it in turbo terms. The drilled hole is a "bleed". If you wanted to up the boost using a bleed, you'd put a restrictor in the wastegate line, and throw in a bleed valve. The hole that you drill in the valve body bleeds off some of the pressure, so *more* pressure has to build up to start moving the valve. The feed line to this passage is small enough that it can be considered a restrictor orifice.

As mentioned above, there are actually two passages and two reaction areas on the reg valve that the pressure tries to push on to move the valve. Pressure is fed to both passages (to try and move the reg valve) in all forward gears. But pressure does not get fed to this passage in reverse gear, which is why the line pressure jumps way up in reverse only, and is also why this mod won't affect the line pressure for reverse (which is a good thing).

How big of a hole to drill? I don't know exactly, as I haven't played with this mod on vb's other than my own. (I resized the feed hole (made the orifice smaller) on my mvb's so a "bleed" hole of .046" gives about 100 psi with the adjuster screw turned all the way in; and it give about 150psi at WOT). If I were to drill the bleed hole in any other valve body, I wouldn't go any bigger than a drill bit of 1/16", which is .062". This size bleed hole will probably get the pressure in the ball park of what I get. With this mod, each turn of the adjuster screw will result in a pressure change of around 5 psi (ultimately dependent on the size you go with the bleed hole). Have fun drilling, and not having to worry about finding a new spring.

Chad Kilback "Kil-time Tranny Tuning"
Now taking orders for Reverse Pattern Manual Valve Bodies and Trans-brakes
Calgary, Alberta SDAC
88 Daytona Shelby "Zedd"
12.43 @ 111 quickest time
12.6 @ 113.00 fastest time
87 New Yorker "Norker Zedd" 2.5L TII 14.6 @ 93

[Stevien1]

NICE!!!!

My trans pegs the pressure gauge in reverse with it's monster regulator spring! :(

[TurboJerry]

I should upload pics of my broken case at the reverse anchor. I use a heavy spring though. (I don't drill bleeds) It had 400 psi in reverse at 1500 rpm. Now I delete reverse boost so my sensitive cases don't blow apart there.... (has 150 in reverse now same rpm) I was very lucky it broke in my driveway! LMK if anyone wants pics........

[neonturbo]

Chad,

Did the mod, drilled a 1/16 hole exactly as described. Did part of another mod where you said to trim the kickdown valve slightly, did not change TV spring. (I think this was to raise throttle sensitivity? I can't remember at the moment.) I am not yet sure which change created a problem.

I have run the homeade shift kit ( block accumulator, shuttle valve, drill seperator plate, etc) for many years. I also had the line pressure screw raised as far as it would go and shimmed. It shifted ok but I was hoping to firm up slightly more.

I have low throttle pressure, cannot shorten cable enough to get kickdown or get rid of mushy shifts. From years of driving same car I can feel when the TV pressure is low in my throttle pedal. It is definately lower than before. Also flares bad 2-3, it never did this until I did the mod. I even went in and reshimmed my line pressure spring like I had before, and is not really any better. Shift points are lower too, so I think line pressure is the culprit. Have not had time to check the line pressure, is hard to do with accumulator blocked. Did double check that TV lever was pressing on throttle valve, is OK.

This is in a neon with a turbo, (300 torque at wheels) late style valve body w/lockup. 3.02 Final drive. Fresh, OEM, clutches and bands, took trans apart to be sure were OK. All looked good. Clutch packs are set to tight end of spec, bands 2 turns or so.


Any more suggestions? I am going in to plug the bleed and swap out the throttle valve.

[ohiorob]

thanks Chad, now I don't have to go out and find a spring. this info is priceless :thumb:

[Torqueflite]

Chad,

Did the mod, drilled a 1/16 hole exactly as described. Did part of another mod where you said to trim the kickdown valve slightly, did not change TV spring. (I think this was to raise throttle sensitivity? I can't remember at the moment.) I am not yet sure which change created a problem.

I have run the homeade shift kit ( block accumulator, shuttle valve, drill seperator plate, etc) for many years. I also had the line pressure screw raised as far as it would go and shimmed. It shifted ok but I was hoping to firm up slightly more.

I have low throttle pressure, cannot shorten cable enough to get kickdown or get rid of mushy shifts. From years of driving same car I can feel when the TV pressure is low in my throttle pedal. It is definately lower than before. Also flares bad 2-3, it never did this until I did the mod. I even went in and reshimmed my line pressure spring like I had before, and is not really any better. Shift points are lower too, so I think line pressure is the culprit. Have not had time to check the line pressure, is hard to do with accumulator blocked. Did double check that TV lever was pressing on throttle valve, is OK.

This is in a neon with a turbo, (300 torque at wheels) late style valve body w/lockup. 3.02 Final drive. Fresh, OEM, clutches and bands, took trans apart to be sure were OK. All looked good. Clutch packs are set to tight end of spec, bands 2 turns or so.


Any more suggestions? I am going in to plug the bleed and swap out the throttle valve.

I believe the only mod I ever mentioned about grinding the kickdown valve would have been an experimental mod that I haven't had time to play with. It's a mod to modify the kickdown and throttle valve (and spring too) so you can crank line pressure as high as you want but not have it raise WOT shift points. This would be of course with an automatic shifting vb and the governor in place.
Grinding the "butts" of the kickdown and/or throttle valve will only affect WOT shift points (and only if you grind enough off). You'd have to change the TV spring to mess with regular shift points.

__________________________________________________ ___
Chad Kilback "Kil-time Tranny Tuning" ckilback3@nucleus.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Calgary, Alberta SDAC
88 Daytona Shelby "Zedd" Yeah, It's got a transbrake
12.43 @ 111 quickest time
12.6 @ 113.00 fastest time
87 New Yorker "Norker Zedd" 2.5L TII 14.6 @ 93
Yeah, the K-car has a transbrake too!
'02 300M Special

[shelbyplaya]

hey chad, you going to mopars in vernon this year? (i know, a bit off topic)

[turbovanman²]

I will try this one day if I ever have a running TM again.

[Speedeuphoria]

Just want to say that I have a RMVB from Chad(Thanks again) and I think I turned the screw a turn before install(It has a small bleed hole in it). I check the pressure in 2nd gear yesterday and it was ~150psi(idle) and spiked to ~170psi(when reved to ~2000rpms)). I shut it off and turned it 3-4 turns and was ~120idle and ~140 reved.

Now I'm not sure exactly how long it would hold up at those pressures Last I knew Rob was running ~140 prob when reved up. I also read that SMP ran 150-155psi.

Whats the acceptable limit for wear and tear on seals/bands/servos ect.?
Mine was built by myself, 1st time opening a tranny, but did lots of research and mods. Everything works great and 3rd gear hits hard:nod:

[Speedeuphoria]

Bump for some info

Is this pic of the VB the same for the older TA rmvb's. Not sure what all was changed. This would be for someone who allready had a TA and wants to do this mod.

[RoadWarrior222]

Would this work well with the "drill 2 holes bigger and leave 1 ball out" mods as the only mods on an A670. Just wanna get shifts firmed up a bit. (I've got no concept of which mods go together and which are independant)

[RoadWarrior222]

Okay, any ballpark estimate of where pressure should be if I do a 1/16 hole and leave adjuster set in stock position?? Or alternatively, what's the ballpark starting point for the adjuster being all the way out?

1/16 be the smallest bit I can get my hands on conveniently.

[RoadWarrior222]

Okay, gave it the "full monty" today, drilled the plate, left the one ball out, shimmed the shuttle and bypass valves, blocked the accumulator and put a 1/16 hole where indicated, wound out the spring all the way on the regulator, hoping that just makes it about 15-20 over stock or something, didn't want it too harsh or my wife will complain. Hoping for vrooom-tuk-vrooom shifts not vroom-BANG-vroom, previously it was vrooom-blehharghshudder-vrooom.

[Vigo]

^ update us on that asap, im curious to see how it turns out.

[turbovanman²]

Let us know what you find. I might play around with this after the van gets going, :nod:

[Speedeuphoria]

the older vb's(like the TA) are a little different than the newer ones that the pics are from. The place where this hole goes, the passages are a little different shaped, but should work the same.

On another note, Carl's(aka dbltrbl) site has been updated w/ new springs for higher line pressure.

[turbovanman²]

On another note, Carl's(aka dbltrbl) site has been updated w/ new springs for higher line pressure.

I am using one out of a Gil Youngers 727 kit and maybe thats why I kept breaking the lo/reverse servo? I turned it down 2 turns and haven't blown the seal out of my billet piston again, knock on wood, :p

[RoadWarrior222]

Seems to have worked okay....

Got her off the jack stands for the first time today. Filled tranny with 4 quarts of TDH universal tractor fluid, then that wasn't enough so had to put 2 quarts ATF in as well. Think the torque convertor must have drained 'coz she was sitting around so long. Also was into the diff an there was about a quart in there that didn't drain from the pan. Still not sure she's quite full yet, I'll check her again tomorrow.

Went for a drive... she changed up with a bang the first time, kinda wasn't ready for it, think I lifted off, was trying to be easy on the gas pedal until I hit the open road 'coz I was laying a smoke screen. Shifts are nice and firm, not quite sure whether they are up the RPM range a bit, if so it's not by more than a hundred RPM. It took me a little while to get used to the tranny again, I only need a quick foot flick on the gas to make it change up if I want it to, rather than having to lift nearly right off. Everything seems to grab hard, no issues with any of the shifts. Don't know how much pressure I've got, blocked the accumulator so can't use that port. At a guess I'd say somewhere between 10-20% over stock, but that's about what I wanted for now. Don't have any overlap issues. Torque convertor seems to be working more efficiently (That was meant to be a benefit of the TDH too) seem to need less RPM. Get good lockup on the highway, cruising at 100kph before I needed 2800 RPM, now it only needs 2600. Kickdown works good, didn't get much chance to sensitivity test, was going 50kphish and it did kickdown to first, but changed up at 5500 as it should.

Hmmm thinking about the upshifting, I'm not actually sure it's really later, just seems like it, shifts seem to complete at the right RPM, but don't start so soon if you catch my meaning. The shift is faster and harder, so seems like it's missed the point for the shift to start, but it just goes in, tunk, right where it usually would.

Heh, mostly got a major feeling of relief right now I didn't screw anything up, so not so exciteable about how it's shifting. Seems like it's gonna be GREAT when I get more spirited with it, but didn't so far, 'coz I was feeling my front end out, think I need to try aligning it again.

[mock_glh]

Drill a hole in the passage marked in yellow. . . that's it. Drill it from the other side of the valve body though.


So the casting I'm looking at gets drilled on the other side into the port that is marked in yellow?

[RoadWarrior222]

I looked at it and thought.... "F that" and drilled out from it :o

[turbogui]

ANybody have done this mod..i have my RMVB in hand and ready to drill the hole!

[ohiorob]

I've done this mod a few times. works great.

[turbovanman²]

Did it make the shifts super hard? how much did the line pressure go up?

[Speedeuphoria]

I think you can go as high as you dare depending on the size of the bleed. I know mine was set at 170psi before I turned it down

[turbovanman²]

So the casting I'm looking at gets drilled on the other side into the port that is marked in yellow?

Is that the case? Just want to make sure too.

[turbogui]

I have take a look yesterday in the body valve..the separation plate already have a hole in this port. So..drill the case???

0.043" ?

[turbovanman²]

I did the mod, used a 1/16 drill bit, Neon DOHC governor setup, aprox half of the adjuster used and it works great, perfect shifts, hard and in the normal spot, :D

[Turbo_Rampage]

Drill a hole in the passage marked in yellow. . . that's it. Drill it from the other side of the valve body though.



I'm currently doing the DIY shift kit and i'm also doing this mod as well, but i'm i little confused on how exactly to drill it... Do you mean drill the hole on the other half of the valvebody? or drill the hole from the outside in on the lower half of the valvebody.

[turbovanman²]

Your drilling THRU the valve body, what your are doing is making a bleed, so the pressure will come out of the hole, making the pressure go up. So mark the valve body, then carefully drill thru the casting.

[Turbo_Rampage]

Your drilling THRU the valve body, what your are doing is making a bleed, so the pressure will come out of the hole, making the pressure go up. So mark the valve body, then carefully drill thru the casting.

Thanks for the quick reply, :thumb:. I'm off to do this right now.

[tsiconquest88]

Is this the same for my a413 3 speed tranny? If so looking at the above pic, is that how it looks once the pan is removed? then just drill through that spot marked in yellow? if so just curious where does the bit end up? like how much metal does it go through before you stop, meaning do u have to worry of going too far and hitting something else?

[turbovanman²]

Is this the same for my a413 3 speed tranny? If so looking at the above pic, is that how it looks once the pan is removed? then just drill through that spot marked in yellow? if so just curious where does the bit end up? like how much metal does it go through before you stop, meaning do u have to worry of going too far and hitting something else?

Yes, this thread is about the A413. You have to take the valve body apart to do it, you can't do this mod with it intact. If you attempt it, make sure you have a overhaul book and very, very, very carefully take it apart as there are balls that will fall out and if you put the valves and springs in wrong, the tranny won't shift properly or you won't move.

[tsiconquest88]

Ah ok thanks bud. I figuredf it had to come apart cus why in the world would aluminum shavings be good in a trans haha. But i thought hey maybe they are saying to do it all together cus the hole is in a spot where can be easily cleaned.

[Tony Hanna]

FWIW, anybody doing this mod without a gauge should start with the adjustment for the pressure regulator all the way loose and adjust from there. Don't make the same mistake I did and start at the stock setting then back it off. With the regulator at the stock setting and a 1/16" bleed hole, the line pressure will be high enough to cause damage. It cost me a trans.

Tony

[RoadWarrior222]

Ahhhhhh, how exactly did it kill yours? I killed my A670, something up the top end, pump, blown TC, bad input shaft bearing, or something like that nasty noises and vibration, no pressure to shift, I fragged an experimental diff spring in there 12 months previous and was blaming that, and it being a 200,000 mile tranny to start with. I had mine set at stock :o and 1/16 was smallest bit I could get hold of at the time.

[Tony Hanna]

Ahhhhhh, how exactly did it kill yours? I killed my A670, something up the top end, pump, blown TC, bad input shaft bearing, or something like that nasty noises and vibration, no pressure to shift, I fragged an experimental diff spring in there 12 months previous and was blaming that, and it being a 200,000 mile tranny to start with. I had mine set at stock :o and 1/16 was smallest bit I could get hold of at the time.

Well, I haven't got mine completely apart to see what exactly failed but I found some relatively large pieces of metal in the pan. Whatever they are, they came from something large, round, and cast. They look machined on one side and will stick to a magnet (so not aluminum). I sent Simon a pic and he thinks they are pieces of the pressure plate for the rear clutch. It also Taco'd the rear band strut. The result of the failure was no forward gears but it still had reverse.

Here's the pic of what I found in the pan. you can't tell much from it other than the basic shape of the pieces (crappy cellphone pic).
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/thumbs/p_00099.jpg (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=11278)

Tony

[turbovanman²]

Ahhhhhh, how exactly did it kill yours? I killed my A670, something up the top end, pump, blown TC, bad input shaft bearing, or something like that nasty noises and vibration, no pressure to shift, I fragged an experimental diff spring in there 12 months previous and was blaming that, and it being a 200,000 mile tranny to start with. I had mine set at stock :o and 1/16 was smallest bit I could get hold of at the time.

I used 1/16 and still had it turned up, HOLY HELL it shifted hard, luckily I had the adjustment hole drilled so turning it back down was easy. After that, shifts fast and hard, can chirp 2nd with slicks, :thumb:



Well, I haven't got mine completely apart to see what exactly failed but I found some relatively large pieces of metal in the pan. Whatever they are, they came from something large, round, and cast. They look machined on one side and will stick to a magnet (so not aluminum). I sent Simon a pic and he thinks they are pieces of the pressure plate for the rear clutch. It also Taco'd the rear band strut. The result of the failure was no forward gears but it still had reverse.

Here's the pic of what I found in the pan. you can't tell much from it other than the basic shape of the pieces (crappy cellphone pic).
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/thumbs/p_00099.jpg (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=11278)

Tony

Its hard to see but I think its the lower pressure plate for the rear clutch. I also taco'd a stock rear band strut once, couldn't figure out why reverse took so long to engage, lol.

[Tony Hanna]

I used 1/16 and still had it turned up, HOLY HELL it shifted hard, luckily I had the adjustment hole drilled so turning it back down was easy. After that, shifts fast and hard, can chirp 2nd with slicks, :thumb:

The thing is, I had the adjustment hole drilled too. Every time I had it out, I'd back the line pressure down a couple turns. I didn't keep track, but I must have taken 4 or 5 turns out of it before it failed. I'd say it was just a case of too little too late. If I'd started with it all the way loose and added pressure as needed instead, I bet my transmission would still be in one piece.:nod:





Its hard to see but I think its the lower pressure plate for the rear clutch. I also taco'd a stock rear band strut once, couldn't figure out why reverse took so long to engage, lol.

It's going to come apart for inspection after it comes out. If it turns out to be an easy fix, I might rebuild it while it's apart and put it back in. If not, I've got a 555 to fall back on.:D

The sad part is that John built me a new band strut out of hardened steel that puts the Sonnax part to shame. I'd really like to test it for him but under the circumstances...

On the bright side, the rebuild parts are cheap enough and rebuilding an auto trans is one of the things I need to check off of my list of things I haven't done before.:)

Tony

[turbovanman²]

The sad part is that John built me a new band strut out of hardened steel that puts the Sonnax part to shame. I'd really like to test it for him but under the circumstances...

Tony

The Sonnax piece is very solid, even I can't bend one, :lol:

[Tony Hanna]

The Sonnax piece is very solid, even I can't bend one, :lol:

Right, I've seen the pics of the Sonnax part beside a stocker. The one John made is mucho overkill but I like it that way. Plus it was free.:thumb:

[Tony Hanna]

I finally got my trans apart. Looks like the shock load from the excessive line pressure (maybe combined with loose clearances?) caused the fwd drum to fail at the snap ring groove. I think I'm going to cut a coil off of the line pressure spring so I can start with it low and raise it a little at a time until I get it where I want it since the adjuster was pretty close to all the way loose and the pressure was still too high.

[turbovanman²]

I finally got my trans apart. Looks like the shock load from the excessive line pressure (maybe combined with loose clearances?) caused the fwd drum to fail at the snap ring groove. I think I'm going to cut a coil off of the line pressure spring so I can start with it low and raise it a little at a time until I get it where I want it since the adjuster was pretty close to all the way loose and the pressure was still too high.

If you put the adjuster back to the stock setting, rebuild the drums and set the clearances properly, you shouldn't have any issues. I've got aprox 10K on this mod and no issues, even had it apart to replace the broken output shaft and checked my clutches, perfect, :thumb:

[Tony Hanna]

If you put the adjuster back to the stock setting, rebuild the drums and set the clearances properly, you shouldn't have any issues. I've got aprox 10K on this mod and no issues, even had it apart to replace the broken output shaft and checked my clutches, perfect, :thumb:

The first time around I started out with a 1/16" bleed and the adjuster at the stock setting and it was shifting really harsh and would hit the rev limiter at WOT without upshifting. I was backing the line pressure adjustment off a little at a time trying to get the shift points and harsh shifting under control when it broke. That's got me a little scared of trying it like that again. I believe I'd rather start with the line pressure too low and work up to where it needs to be this time. With the way it acted, I do wonder if maybe the damn regulator isn't stuck. I guess that could explain why I had trouble with this mod when everybody else is having such good luck with it.:confused2:

[turbovanman²]

The first time around I started out with a 1/16" bleed and the adjuster at the stock setting and it was shifting really harsh and would hit the rev limiter at WOT without upshifting. I was backing the line pressure adjustment off a little at a time trying to get the shift points and harsh shifting under control when it broke. That's got me a little scared of trying it like that again. I believe I'd rather start with the line pressure too low and work up to where it needs to be this time. With the way it acted, I do wonder if maybe the damn regulator isn't stuck. I guess that could explain why I had trouble with this mod when everybody else is having such good luck with it.:confused2:

I would say you've got an issue with the regulator valve, it could be sticking or maybe someone put a stiffer spring in. Your the first so far thats had issues. I used a 1/16 hole too.

[pauly_no_van]

I have a question about this mod.
Does it accompany another mod/shift kit?
If so, which one?
Paul Smith's page?
Other vendor?
I am fixing an A 413 and putting a ford spring in my diff and want to beef up/get it shifting like you guys describe here....
Thanks!

paul

[Tony Hanna]

I have a question about this mod.
Does it accompany another mod/shift kit?
If so, which one?
Paul Smith's page?
Other vendor?
I am fixing an A 413 and putting a ford spring in my diff and want to beef up/get it shifting like you guys describe here....
Thanks!

paul

Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but this mod should be usable with or without any shift kit you want to use. It simply allows you greater range when raising line pressure without having to mess with swapping springs.
I finally got mine sorted out and it shifts nice and firm without being as harsh as it was before. I also filled the small governor weight with solder to increase the weight and drop the shift points (handy because I can drill solder out as needed to fine tune the shift points).:thumb:

[pauly_no_van]

Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but this mod should be usable with or without any shift kit you want to use. It simply allows you greater range when raising line pressure without having to mess with swapping springs.
I finally got mine sorted out and it shifts nice and firm without being as harsh as it was before. I also filled the small governor weight with solder to increase the weight and drop the shift points (handy because I can drill solder out as needed to fine tune the shift points).:thumb:

Thanks!:D
So I will start by leaving in the accumulator then.
I'll drill a hole/tap for a plug in the side of the case so I can adjust the pressure as needed.
I have an n/a tranny that I'm told has the governor sought after by turbo guys wanting to change shift pattern/timing... Is that a good move too?

[Tony Hanna]

I have an n/a tranny that I'm told has the governor sought after by turbo guys wanting to change shift pattern/timing... Is that a good move too?

I'd try it w/the stock governor weights first to get an idea of where it shifts. If it shifts too late (or not at all at full throttle) then you could try the solid small weight to lower shift points some. Simon mentioned (post #27 in this thread) that his shifts happened in the normal spot with this mod, but mine were happening way late for some reason.

[turbovanman²]

I have a question about this mod.
Does it accompany another mod/shift kit?
If so, which one?
Paul Smith's page?
Other vendor?
I am fixing an A 413 and putting a ford spring in my diff and want to beef up/get it shifting like you guys describe here....
Thanks!

paul

Don't use that Ford spring, it will make a mess and cause more damage.


I'd try it w/the stock governor weights first to get an idea of where it shifts. If it shifts too late (or not at all at full throttle) then you could try the solid small weight to lower shift points some. Simon mentioned (post #27 in this thread) that his shifts happened in the normal spot with this mod, but mine were happening way late for some reason.

You were having issues with shifting or redline shifts???

My bad, I did notice the bleed did increase my redline shifts a few hundred rpm.

[pauly_no_van]

Don't use that Ford spring, it will make a mess and cause more damage.


Hi,

Can you please explain?
thanks,

paul

[turbovanman²]

Hi,

Can you please explain?
thanks,

paul

They don't work, come apart and fill the trans full of metal. Ask Roadwarrior.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yup it "assploded", took chips out of my ring gear, a chunk out of the diff carrier, and punched a quarter sized hole in the case, and ate and shredded a "diffsaver" tab. That was at approx 20 mph under 2000rpm lightly on the gas when it clipped a pothole. The shrapnel appeared to be mild steel now, soft, not spring steel, so it probably changed temper under heat stress. I was probably only able to get the tranny useable again for another year and about 20K miles because it happened at low speed, not a lot of debris got out of the diff area. Had it happened at highway speeds, I think there would have been multiple case breaches, and you'd have been lucky to even be able to re-use the axles and kickdown rod again.

It did work a bit, about the same as a Phantom Grip without the spring upgrade package. I used the 7.5" Ranger spring, which is now discontinued. I was doubtful about the quality of the springs I got, because one broke trying to get it in the diff and along the break there were bubbles and voids in the metal. I thought at the time "oh, thank god that one didn't go in..." but I guess the one that went in could have been just has bad. I might experiment with the larger springs at some point in the future... just not in my DD again.

I have heard in general that this type of LSD (spring biased friction plate) is bad for "fast street" type driving, because of heat issues. The guys who have had good luck with them seem to have had light cars and ran strip.

[pauly_no_van]

Yup it "assploded", took chips out of my ring gear, a chunk out of the diff carrier, and punched a quarter sized hole in the case, and ate and shredded a "diffsaver" tab. That was at approx 20 mph under 2000rpm lightly on the gas when it clipped a pothole. The shrapnel appeared to be mild steel now, soft, not spring steel, so it probably changed temper under heat stress. I was probably only able to get the tranny useable again for another year and about 20K miles because it happened at low speed, not a lot of debris got out of the diff area. Had it happened at highway speeds, I think there would have been multiple case breaches, and you'd have been lucky to even be able to re-use the axles and kickdown rod again.

It did work a bit, about the same as a Phantom Grip without the spring upgrade package. I used the 7.5" Ranger spring, which is now discontinued. I was doubtful about the quality of the springs I got, because one broke trying to get it in the diff and along the break there were bubbles and voids in the metal. I thought at the time "oh, thank god that one didn't go in..." but I guess the one that went in could have been just has bad. I might experiment with the larger springs at some point in the future... just not in my DD again.

I have heard in general that this type of LSD (spring biased friction plate) is bad for "fast street" type driving, because of heat issues. The guys who have had good luck with them seem to have had light cars and ran strip.

Thanks ! ! ! :D
I took that spring out and modded the swaybar instead...
It has more traction with polyurethane bushings[4] now, and handles speed bumps better and more quietly.

[bfarroo]

From what I'm reading this mod will affect WOT shift points like any other line pressure mod requiring weight modifications to the governor weights.

[turbovanman²]

From what I'm reading this mod will affect WOT ---- points like any other line pressure mod requiring weight modifications to the governor weights.

Not as much as messing with the regulator.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Thanks ! ! ! :D
I took that spring out and modded the swaybar instead...
It has more traction with polyurethane bushings[4] now, and handles speed bumps better and more quietly.

Is that my sway bar mod? With end links? That mod seems to be getting pretty popular. Funny no one believes me when I say after modding the sway bar both tires sping and a posi is almost useless.

[TheCanadian007]

Curious thought, I'm planning a Turbo buildup with an A413 turbo spec tranny. What would be some simple mods to help it handle the added power (going with a T2/T3 hybrid turbo @ 14psi, T2 rad/cooler etc)?

[turbovanman²]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3180

In an nutshell-

Tighten up the clutch packs
Install the Sonnax governor kit and rear band strut
Valve body mods
Higher line pressure and then grind the center out of the little governor weight so the 1-2 shift is later.
Remove the accumulator.
Add drain plug to the pan.
Add one more disc to the rear clutch pack by using A404 steels-they are thinner.
Get a large trans cooler.
LSD or get the Mopar ears to stop the diff pin from shooting out.

[TheCanadian007]

For the sake of curiosity, how would a bone stock turbo tranny hold out? Would it eventually implode from the added torque? What factor really causes the most trans failures?

[turbovanman²]

For the sake of curiosity, how would a bone stock turbo tranny hold out? Would it eventually implode from the added torque? What factor really causes the most trans failures?

The biggest issue with a stock trans is line pressure and clutch pack clearance. If you don't want to rebuild, then remove the accumulator and valve body mods which can be done in the car. Turn up the line pressure a few turns but that's it.

[TheCanadian007]

I"m somewhat of a n00b when it comes to auto transmissions; never torn one down or done much work to them besides fluid/filter change and adding an external fluid cooler. Where mightI find the line pressure knob and is there any tool required to turn it? (Wrench or use fingers?)

Secondly, in regards to the valve body mods, I was planning on leaving it with a stock valve body and just shift it manually when performance is desired, but still leaving an automatic function for the lazy days. Does modding the valve body serve any advantage besides that?

Finally, where is the accumulator, and (in a nutshell if you could) what function does it perform?

I heard that the Turbo 2 equipped Shelby Lancers had de-tuned calibrations with torque limited to around 180 ft-lbs for longevity. Will I have to worry about breaking pieces with a T3 turbo and the Stage 2 cal? I don't intend on abusing it, but I shall take it out to the drag way once in a while, running ordinary street tires, no slicks. If I keep the one-wheeled burnouts to a minimum, shall it last a long while?

Also in regards to performance with the automatic, how fast would one expect an auto T2 Horizon to be in the 1/4 mile? Are they considerably slower than their 5 speed counterparts? I hope to still be able to eat Mustangs and Camaros once I've done my buildup.

Really appreciate the help and knowledge, guys!

Cheers, TheCanadian

[RoadWarrior222]

Line pressure screw is on the front passenger side of the valve body, it turns with a hex key, or if you want to grate up the head and leave slivers that will wash off into the fluid, vicegrips or pliers.

Accumulator is at the front of the case, partially cast into it, the fluid passages are the big ones you can stuff your pinkie in, then there's a circular thing inset into the case up there. Basically it kind of bridges pressure for one set of clutches and bands for 1st gear so they still hold while 2nd gear comes into play. It performs the function of trying to be in 2 gears at once :D Basically it plays to the notion that an automatic transmission should be buttery smooth, by letting one set of clutches and bands slip and grind out, while the other set slips and grinds in, instead of just releasing one set and applying the other in sequence.

[TheCanadian007]

Ah, thanks for the clarification! Anyone have any info on the shift kit and longevity with added torque and performance potential?

Cheers, TheCanadian

[TheCanadian007]

Buuump, anyone got teh infos?

[87yorker]

PM Sent to Steve

[turbovanman²]

PM Sent to Steve

Who's Steve?

[inthefreeze1998]

I have a 41te that I keep rippin apart every 7 months to change reverse frictions 2 of them any thoughts on why this is blowing out frictions (pressure)??

[turbovanman²]

I have a 41te that I keep rippin apart every 7 months to change reverse frictions 2 of them any thoughts on why this is blowing out frictions (pressure)??

4 speed, no idea, maybe PM "SebringLX"

[pauly_no_van]

Is that my sway bar mod? With end links? That mod seems to be getting pretty popular. Funny no one believes me when I say after modding the sway bar both tires sping and a posi is almost useless.

Hey,

I used Tierods for endlinks, did not last long.
I would probably either find a link that is big enough for fitting around the swaybar, else just use poly bushings.
Endlinks really do make it better though!

I am going to try this drilled VB mod on my 'problem child' tranny very soon
paul

[turbovanman²]

I am going to try this drilled VB mod on my 'problem child' tranny very soon
paul

MAKE sure your trans is beefed up.

[pauly_no_van]

MAKE sure your trans is beefed up.

5 clutches per drum, diff pin retainers, start at 'zero' on the line press screw...?
Also, I will be doing this to an untouched VB, not a modded one.
sound right?
Thanks as always Simon!

[turbovanman²]

5 clutches per drum, diff pin retainers, start at 'zero' on the line press screw...?
Also, I will be doing this to an untouched VB, not a modded one.
sound right?
Thanks as always Simon!

The clutch clearances must be modified, stock, bad stuff will happen, also need the stronger rear band strut otherwise the line pressure will nuke the stocker in no time.

You should do the valve body mods, its already out, why wouldn't you?

Give the line pressure screw a few turns and adjust to feel, :p

[pauly_no_van]

The clutch clearances must be modified, stock, bad stuff will happen, also need the stronger rear band strut otherwise the line pressure will nuke the stocker in no time.

I have experimented with this, putting a modded vb in a stock trans. Got to 12k miles then gov started doing weird stuff.
bushing material in pan, fluid red otherwise... :/

[Vigo]

I did this line pressure bleed mod to a slipping trans that had metal in the pan (LOOOSE clutch packs). I went with a smaller orifice than 1/16 (forget exactly) and it stopped it slipping on a 13psi 2.5L. Drove it for a few hundred miles after that and parked it, so all i can say for durability on a not-ideal trans is that it didnt snap the clutch drums apart. :p Maybe with an overkill orifice it would, though.

[turbovanman²]

I did this line pressure bleed mod to a slipping trans that had metal in the pan (LOOOSE clutch packs). I went with a smaller orifice than 1/16 (forget exactly) and it stopped it slipping on a 13psi 2.5L. Drove it for a few hundred miles after that and parked it, so all i can say for durability on a not-ideal trans is that it didnt snap the clutch drums apart. :p Maybe with an overkill orifice it would, though.

Drive it some more, ;)

[Vigo]

It didnt even shift hard. Just slightly firmer than stock. I used a small orifice and backed the adjuster all the way out to start. Just started building another trans so the mod will get tested further when that's installed, but then it will have tight clutch packs. I really dont think doing this mod will kill clutch drums.. i think OVERDOING this mod will. 1/16 is too big. Start smaller.

[pauly_no_van]

next vb is drilled 1/32" with the rest of the usual mods..
4 clutches in 1st gear drum end up at .004" if it were for a van id try to get 5 in
5 clutches in reverse drum also to .004" with a404 steels..

[RoadWarrior222]

I've kinda lost track about when I had this mod in, I just had about 9/10ths of max dialled in on the screw before it. I metalled out the original tranny at about 190,000 miles after about 10,000 miles on the original VB mods, with the experimental "wave spring" LSD lash up, cleaned it out, then it lasted about another 10,000... to reach 200,000 miles, during this time it was kind of "bangy" especially at part throttle. It was making some strange knocking then finally refuesed to shift up, there was loads of brass, friction and iron filings in it, very gungy, so I think the VB gummed up first, but when I pulled it, I found the clutch pack had been grinding the back of the oil pump because all the bushings/washers on the input shaft had worn away to nothing, or paper thin.... I think it was with the replacement tranny that I went to the hole, at 1/16, with stock LP setting, and standard set of shift kit mods. Now this shifts a lot crisper with no bang, supposedly only 60,000 miles on this tranny. So thinking previous tranny was worn out anyhow, it did seem to be on the verge of slipping before I first SKed it and tightened up the bands. Buuut, whatever was happening before, current setup is an improvement, though I haven't had many miles on it, due to fuelling issues and a leak I have to fix.

[turbovanman²]

It didnt even shift hard. Just slightly firmer than stock. I used a small orifice and backed the adjuster all the way out to start. Just started building another trans so the mod will get tested further when that's installed, but then it will have tight clutch packs. I really dont think doing this mod will kill clutch drums.. i think OVERDOING this mod will. 1/16 is too big. Start smaller.

Mine is 1/16", I have over 150 psi line pressure at idle, :wow1: so yeah, smaller for a stocker is better.

So if you go that big, parts will bang together pretty fast and with loose clearances, will accelerate wear and breakage, plus the stock rear band strut will bend, I've done it.



next vb is drilled 1/32" with the rest of the usual mods..
4 clutches in 1st gear drum end up at .004" if it were for a van id try to get 5 in
5 clutches in reverse drum also to .004" with a404 steels..

You better not set it at .004", or it will self destruct, you need .040" to .050" :eyebrows:

[pauly_no_van]

You better not set it at .004", or it will self destruct, you need .040" to .050" :eyebrows:

LOL good catch I meant to put .040"
I also forgot to mention i used an NA torque converter this last time.
I actually liked the responsiveness, and probably i got a little bit better mileage..
I have heard that is a no-no though...

[Vigo]

I think a 2.5 can handle an n/a converter just fine if you've got a stock turbo. I think the turbo converters are a little TOO loose imo. On a 2.2/auto tho i'd be afraid of MORE lag so i wouldnt put an n/a converter in it hehe.

[turbovanman²]

I think a 2.5 can handle an n/a converter just fine if you've got a stock turbo. I think the turbo converters are a little TOO loose imo. On a 2.2/auto tho i'd be afraid of MORE lag so i wouldnt put an n/a converter in it hehe.

I think your right, but only a stock turbo otherwise all bets are off, lol.

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------


LOL good catch I meant to put .040"
I also forgot to mention i used an NA torque converter this last time.
I actually liked the responsiveness, and probably i got a little bit better mileage..
I have heard that is a no-no though...

You got better mileage because of less slip, which means more power is getting put down and not being wasted thru the slip. I went to a high stall in my van and lost 75-100km's a tank, the difference was night and day around town. The reason you might have heard its a no no is with a lower stall, you could have spool up issues if your trying to brake torque it, but as Vigo said, a stocker, you won't have any issue. I am going back to a stocker for now, need the MPG back, :banghead:

[A.J.]

When I first did this mod, I drilled the hole straight up and the fluid sprayed all over the dip stick and it made it pretty hard to read the level. The second one I did I angled the bleed hole to the rear and it helped. I drilled my SRT-4 valve body straight up, back when I did my first bleed on my van. I didn't want to have to take it apart, get it welded, and then re-drill the hole. So I made a shield to divert the fluid away from the dip stick using bolts already holding something on the valve body and a 1/4" strip of sheet metal.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/SRT-4/IMG_0224.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/SRT-4/IMG_0225.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/SRT-4/IMG_0226.jpg

You can see the hole in this picture.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/SRT-4/IMG_0227.jpg

A.J.

[Vigo]

Good idear on angling the hole. I too experienced the screwy dipstick readings when i did the mod. The next one i do (which should be pretty soon on my friend's shelby lancer) i will try to remember to angle the hole as you did!

[turbovanman²]

I angled it as far back as possible, can easily read the dipstick now. Good idea A.J if your still having issues reading it, :thumb:

[RoadWarrior222]

I hafta do that... but I'm trying not to have to crack the thing open, this wrecker trans I put in didn't have whole lot of miles but most of the pan bolts/threads were screwed up real good, it's juuusssst holding on, and I've had to put larger bolts in some holes and backing nuts on some of the ones that come through.... it's a mess.

[A.J.]

I hafta do that... but I'm trying not to have to crack the thing open, this wrecker trans I put in didn't have whole lot of miles but most of the pan bolts/threads were screwed up real good, it's juuusssst holding on, and I've had to put larger bolts in some holes and backing nuts on some of the ones that come through.... it's a mess.

Heli-coil. They're easy to put in aluminum.

A.J.

[turbovanman²]

Heli-coil. They're easy to put in aluminum.

A.J.

Exactly. I am going to put studs in my pan this time, tired of stripping them out, lol.

[Vigo]

When i worked in a trans shop i helicoiled a LOT of chrysler 3spd pan bolts. Just get the kit, a mopar reusable pan gasket, and a drain plug kit, and make a day of it sometime.

[turbovanman²]

When i worked in a trans shop i helicoiled a LOT of chrysler 3spd pan bolts. Just get the kit, a mopar reusable pan gasket, and a drain plug kit, and make a day of it sometime.

Or if you plan on lots of pan re and re's, stud it, :p

[A.J.]

Or if you plan on lots of pan re and re's, stud it, :p

That's a really good idea. I'm going to have to drop the pan multiple times on my SRT-4 build to get the governor right so I think I'll stud it.

A.J.

[turbovanman²]

That's a really good idea. I'm going to have to drop the pan multiple times on my SRT-4 build to get the governor right so I think I'll stud it.

A.J.

Hate to admit it but I got the idea from a DCR trans, I had to look at one in a turbo PT Cruiser that I will be reparing, and its studded, so of course, I go ding ding ding. I priced out ARP's and went no f'in way, It will cost me like $500, so picked up some studs from the local Metric place and some Japanese style nuts with the built in washer and the scalloped bottom.

[RoadWarrior222]

I think I'd like studs, since when I'm messing with it, I seem to end up having the pan on and off a few times in a space of a week or two. Dunno whether to just go with the oversize some of the holes are already tapped to, think it was 5/16 ... forgot.

[turbovanman²]

I think I'd like studs, since when I'm messing with it, I seem to end up having the pan on and off a few times in a space of a week or two. Dunno whether to just go with the oversize some of the holes are already tapped to, think it was 5/16 ... forgot.

Then your searching for Metric and Standard fasteners, just heli-coil them, easy and cheap, right up your alley, :p

[ShadowFromHell]

Is this safe to do on a stock tranny? Since the tranny is stock should I go smaller the 1/16?

[RoadWarrior222]

I think it's saf-"er" than just turning up line pressure, since it doesn't whack the reverse pressure way high and bust the strut.

As for managing to drill it smaller, I find that good quality bits smaller than 1/16 are hard to get hold of, with the result that you either keep breaking the damn things (Very slow feed rate on drill press with everything clamped the F down helps) or that it kind of "mashes" it's way through, which due to malleability of alloy means it probably makes a kind of triangularish hole that's bigger than the nominal bit size, potentially same area as good clean 1/16.

Anyhoo, IMO the 1/16 is fine on unmodified as long as i) it isn't excessively worn, if you're doing it because "it seems a bit more slippy and slushy these days", not a good plan. ii) you do all the maintenance adjustments as tight as possible beforehand, otherwise that sheet is gonna bang around, cause more stress than it should do.

[turbovanman²]

Block the acculator and I wouldn't touch the line pressure adjustment either.

[ShadowFromHell]

So no hole or line pressure adjustment? I have reason to believe the line pressure was actually turned down... the tranny has 80k or so on it. Shouldn't be worn out.

[Vigo]

Eh, you'd be surprised how shitty an 80k mile trans can be, especially back in the pre-604 days when the ---- didnt adjust itself. :p

I did a smaller than 1/16 hole and liked the result on an unopened trans. I dont remember the size but it was from a 'craft' drill bit set. Go to a craft store and ask what they have for drilling tiny holes in jewelry etc.

Of course as mentioned, bits that small will not accept ANY amount of ham-handedness. You're either really careful, or you break it. So, be careful!

[A.J.]

I bought a micro drill bit kit from Harbor Freight and it's been pretty good. You are only drilling aluminum. I wouldn't try drilling steel with them. I did by a micro drill bit chuck from Snap-on to hold the bits in my regular size drill chuck. I drilled a .042" hole and I think that gave me 80-90 psi base (adjustment all the way out) pressure.

[ShadowFromHell]

I dont know if there is room but id love to run a line from that passage to the outside of the tranny hooked to a needle valve and then dumping back in. Then line pressure adjustment would be super easy. Wouldnt be that hard to do I dont think.

[zin]

Sounds good, but wouldn't the spring/regulator just try to overcome it?

Mike

[Vigo]

Not sure what you mean, Mike. The bleed takes pressure away from what the stock valve/spring 'sees'. The mod is extremely similar in function to a manual boost controller in a wastegate line.

[zin]

OK, I'm pretty sure I'm just not visualizing things correctly. If I'm not off track here, this mod "over-rides" the existing regulator (spring adjustment)?

I think I may need to go back over this thread to see where my mental train jumped the track!:o

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

doesn't completely override, just re-proportions it. Kinda like how the vacuum/boost line affects a fuel pressure regulator.

[Vigo]

It doesnt defeat the stock spring/regulator valve, it just bleeds off some of the pressure that would be acting against the spring, so it ends up taking more pressure to move the regulator valve to the relief/bypass position, so line pressure goes up even with a completely stock spring and regulator valve.

[zin]

Got it,thanks for the explanations!

Mike

[rpmguy]

Hello, Im thinking about drilling the bleed hole. I already have a rmvb (cheeta) in car now. Been in there for a few years. First thing I need to do is check line pressure to see where im at now. Can someone tell me the line pressure ammount again. And best way to check it ? Idle, 2nd gear. Power break motor in 2nd gear ? What numbers am i looking for ? Tranny was rebuilt when rmvb was put in. Tranny is working great. Just like the idea of having higher line pressure with lower reverse pressure. Did cheeta drill this hole already ? Thanks Ryan

[turbovanman²]

I'll see if I can dig up the info, unless someone beats me to it.

[RoadWarrior222]

As far as I remember, the cheetah RMVB was quite extensively reconfigured, so possible it doesn't have same valve cavity to drill hole in, or if it does it has unexpected effects.

[rpmguy]

ok, thanks. Ive never checked pressure. What should I be shooting for? 150psi in 2nd gear 2000rpm?? High 12sec acclaim

[hy35f2t]

So how would this mod be on a stock trans?

[turbovanman²]

So how would this mod be on a stock trans?

I wouldn't do it unless the trans is in great shape. My 2 cent's.

[shadow88]

ok, thanks. Ive never checked pressure. What should I be shooting for? 150psi in 2nd gear 2000rpm?? High 12sec acclaim

My personal experience with the cheetah RMVB. Start by checking out page 10 on the link here...http://www.uscars.biz/uscars/extras-documents/ATSG_A404_A413_A415_A470.pdf

To check the line pressure on the cheetah RMVB you will need a 1/16th inch pipe thread adapter to a 200 psi gauge installed in the test port that it called "Kickdown apply" in the link I supplied. It will only have a reading in 2nd gear.

In 2nd gear, holding the brake on, you'll bring the revs up to about 1500 rpms and you should see about 120-125 psi. That's what my unmodified "no bleed" cheetah valve body reads when warm.

My personal findings are, above 150 psi, the apply pressure on the forward (rear) clutch is too great and it breaks the retaining ring out of the clutch pack and you don't go forward at all but reverse still works.

I've pushed it to 150 psi and it broke the clutch pack retaining ring as well as the clutch pack and seals on the input shaft. Stick to 120-130 psi warm maximum. I give my car 10 minutes of warm up time just to be sure the oil is warm enough to lower the line pressure to a point where nothing breaks but there's very firm, positive shifts.