A568 Shifting Mods - Crash Box

[turboshad]

There's been a lot of talk lately here about making a crash box by machining or grinding the synchros but no one has tried it recently enough for any worthwhile feedback so I figured it was time. There isn't allot of information on the subject floating around on the net and much of what is there seems to be a friend of a friends uncles who's great nefphew had a teacher who's student' dad tried it. Oh and don't do it on a street car, b/c I've never heard that before and proved it wrong. Either way I couldn't find anything conclusive and since I hate my synbchros and have been having trouble with quick 3rd gear shifts anyway I figured what the heck. So here is what I have done in my true tonnes of picture form.

To start, the concept is to grind every other tooth off of the sychro teeth on the gear and the mating splines on the slider. The brass teeth don't need to be touched as they rotate with the slider so there are no real meshing issues there. There is no need to do 1st as you only down shift into 1st and that doesn't really come into play when the problems arrise. When looking at the 2nd gear sychro on the A568 there is an uneven number of teeth. This combined with the 6 teeth already missing for the synchro dogs I couldn't really see a way to make it work. Maybe I didn't try hard enough but on the same token I have never had a problem shifting fast or even WOT shifting into 2nd due to the slower output shaft and gear rotations. So onto 3rd and 4th. These have an even number of teeth so the math was much easier. :thumb:

I made a quick try with the ol die grinder and a carbide burr but within 10 seconds new I would be taking them to the shop for some quality machine time. For the gear we set it up in the 4th axis and used one of the flats to eye ball the 1/4" carbide end mill to set the gear straight up. An indexer on a manual mill would do the trick just as well. Using 4 passes with a single path the 1/4" tool worked well to get rid of each of the 18 teeth (20 degree rotation).

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/IMG_2049.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3011.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3015.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3029.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3016.jpg

For the slider we set it up in a clamp and used a 1/2" carbide end mill. We condidered a ball nose but I felt the cut depth would have gone too far into the center for the gear teeth to still clear. We machined down .250" which just took out the small bevel in each of the splines. This left the center of all the splines for full strength on the dog housing which is also missing a buch of teeth from the factory. With the 1/2" cutter we went just past the diameter of the root of the spline so we could do it with one motion and not get too close to the adjacent teeth. I don't think this will have any real adverse effect thought it does take a touch more material off.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/IMG_2055.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3013.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3014.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3020.jpg

Here is a pic of them on the intermediate shaft where you can see the clearance between the gear synchro teeth and the slider splines.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3174.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3176.jpg

I need to give a big thanks to Kieth for his help in the machining as I'm not quite there yet on the CNC mill operation. He also helped me machine the bead plate straps so he's a big reason my car stays together :knocks on wood smiley:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/IMG_2057.jpg

Along with the synchros I doubled up the springs on both the 1-2 dog assembly and the 3-4 dog assembly. These springs dictate how much pressure is put on the brass cups before the gear actually engages. These brass cups use friction on the gear to match the speed of the intermediate shaft with the gear that is running off the input shaft. It makes for a bit more shifting effort and more notchy of a gear shift feel but nothing crazy. You can double up the springs on both sides of the dog assembly for twice the force or just one side for 50% more.

1-2 assembly

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3164.jpg

3-4 assembly

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/DSC_3172.jpg

So that is what I've done and I'm really hoping the synchro teeth don't rip off and that it will allow me to consistantly WOT shift through all the gears. I am trying hard to get the car together, sans hood and dash, for a race on the 14th so if that goes well and the weather cooperates then I should have some feedback to share. Here's hoping it works. :thumb:

[Ondonti]

I hope there is longevity with abuse. That is something I worried about when pondering it. Hope its not a one shot go.

[cordes]

Thanks for the great post DJ. Your threads like this are a huge asset to the community. I could easily take these pics into my local proto type place and let the guy know what I want rather than drawing pics or telling him what to do with the machine next.

[Directconnection]

Yes, great write-up so far!

Fingers crossed for you that it works, too.

I am somewhat illiterate when it comes to the internals of trannies, so I have no input... but I did youtube "crashbox" and a few other vids on fast shifting (flat footing) and saw a couple really nice vids. This one car (RH drive) shifted perfectly w/out skipping a beat and also w/out slamming into the next gear. It simply clicked into the next gear... It almost makes me think it's LESS violent on the transmission than a super lightning quick shift with a quick tap of the clutch, as that millisecond of "space" really slams hard into the next gear.

[turboshad]

I hope there is longevity with abuse. That is something I worried about when pondering it. Hope its not a one shot go.

Ya, me too. That was the part that was pretty vague on any write up I found along with the power going through it etc. I'm really doing this in part to put the mystery behind me. With 500 ftlbs of torque there would be about 285lbf going through each tooth working off of a 3" diameter. That's really isn't all that much for a tooth that short and 4th would be less than that due to the gearing.


Yes, great write-up so far!

Fingers crossed for you that it works, too.

I am somewhat illiterate when it comes to the internals of trannies, so I have no input... but I did youtube "crashbox" and a few other vids on fast shifting (flat footing) and saw a couple really nice vids. This one car (RH drive) shifted perfectly w/out skipping a beat and also w/out slamming into the next gear. It simply clicked into the next gear... It almost makes me think it's LESS violent on the transmission than a super lightning quick shift with a quick tap of the clutch, as that millisecond of "space" really slams hard into the next gear.

It's possible that "crash box" isn't quite the right term to use but it's all I could think of. Probalby most of what you found was a dog box as they are quite common in racing and are somethimes refferd to as crash boxes. That is what I would really love to do but I don't have enough $$ to design one right now. I figure it would take at least $5000-$6000 to have one made up for me. The dog box replaces the synchros with large dogs that have an even larger window. Just like a motorbike, as that is how their transmissions are built, it would allow for clutchless up-shifting with just a blip of the throttle.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Crash%20Box/untitled.jpg

It makes sense though that removing some teeth could result in less wear when trying repeated quick hard shifts and there is less chance of grinding the top ridges before it goes into gear.

[Ondonti]

Pro Shifting seems to be another term. Problem is that crashbox technically refers to something completely different then what this modification is. Its a word for a specific style of transmission applied to a weird modification to normal synchros.

Liberty gears will modify your gears for you. They say that it will get worn quickly and need deburr etc. I don't know how pro shifted mod compares with the grind a synchro mod.

I would rather keep the clutch light and avoid things like this.

[Directconnection]

Now that I think of it, it was "dogbox"

[BadAssPerformance]

Nice work DJ, can't wait to hear the results! :thumb: ...and then bug yer buddy to make a few more? ;)

Also... pretty sure "crashbox" is what this is... referenced from the old school "Hemi Crash box" where they did teh same mod to the gears.

The one DC posted looks more like a "dogbox" style mod... waiting for DJ to make one of those for us ;)

[shackwrrr]

Crashbox is the technical term used for the modified setup that he made. Dog box is a transmission like shown above and "face plated" transmission is that liberty gear does.

I want to know how the dual springs work out. I brought that up a while back and a few shot it down. I thought of it because I was having gear grind issues and when I took the trans apart the synchros had very little wear. I see the only problem being increased wear on the shift fork pads and a notchier shift. The wear would be fixed with bronze pads and the notchiness I like more than the rubbery stick feel that it has now.

[fishcleaner]

Good luck and kudos for Kieth. I'm no transmission guy but I feel as tho it will work.

[butchsuppe]

Back in the day " slick shift " was a term used for racing transmissions.

[rx2mazda]

nice DJ, cant wait for the feedback!

[135sohc]

Will be patiently awaiting feedback.

[Reeves]

Will be patiently awaiting feedback.

Same here.....although anxiety is kicking in.....

[Reaper1]

I SOOO can't wait for feedback. This just might be getting done to my transmission if all goes well enough! :)

[Reaper1]

Liberty is quoting $80/gear and approximately $80/slider to do the faceplate mod. It seems to me that this is pretty darn fair and probably worthwhile for those that have transmissions that are good, except the stock synchro dog teeth are worn out. Instead of junking a perfectly good transmission, you can save it and make it better for a small investment!

Hell, they can even make bronze shift fork pads and such (no price given, and that's understandable).

I think this might be something I look more into!

[shackwrrr]

Liberty is quoting $80/gear and approximately $80/slider to do the faceplate mod. It seems to me that this is pretty darn fair and probably worthwhile for those that have transmissions that are good, except the stock synchro dog teeth are worn out. Instead of junking a perfectly good transmission, you can save it and make it better for a small investment!

Hell, they can even make bronze shift fork pads and such (no price given, and that's understandable).

I think this might be something I look more into!

I emailed them and they can't do it. That 80 bucks a gear is for the T56 and other popular transmissions. I know someone that tried to get an evo trans done and they quoted him over 5000 to do it.

[Ondonti]

can't = won't :(

I would go for a faceplate mod in a heartbeat at legit prices.

[Reaper1]

I agree. Can't for that company shouldn't even be in their vocabulary! I mean come on, they design and build transmissions from SCRATCH to handle over 1500hp! There's NO reason they "can't" modify our gears and make sliders. Can't = lazy!

[cordes]

I agree. Can't for that company shouldn't even be in their vocabulary! I mean come on, they design and build transmissions from SCRATCH to handle over 1500hp! There's NO reason they "can't" modify our gears and make sliders. Can't = lazy!

It may just mean that they don't want to waste their time with someone due to the fact that they won't pay what it would take to get the job done. There would be a lot of work and foregone income from a new project if they are already doing well off of other things. I know that 99% of us would balk at big money to have gears done.

[Reaper1]

It depends on what "big money" is. I would STILL consider it even if it were $300/gear (meaning gear and slider).

I've been thinking on how to have new synchro dog teeth machined and installed anyways since the first mention that there was somebody doing it or the old 4-speed Hemi transmissions. Honestly, it really shouldn't be THAT difficult to do. To make a slider an EDM machine would be needed, but I think that would be the worst of it.

I'd machine the face teeth for the gear. Machine the dog teeth of the gear so that the new face is a press fit. Press it on and then TIG weld the ring to the gear (this would require preheating). Let it cool and then check the critical tolerances, mainly the inner diameter of the gear where it rides on the shaft. If it needs truing, do that machine work. Then, I'd surface harden the new face dogs and do stress relief on the weld. Done!

The slider, if made from scratch, would obviously be harder to do. You *could* use a similar method to make the face slider out of the original one and that might save some effort there.

I wish I had the kind of machinery at my disposal to do this. I'm very certain this would work!

[Aries_Turbo]

if you are going to go to all that trouble, just machine/weld up a custom bellhousing and use a quaife sequential box. :)

Brian

[Shadow]

Good luck on D-day, Very interested in your results!

[BadAssPerformance]

Good luck on D-day, Very interested in your results!

+ infiniti!

Pretty much EVERYONE rowing is waiting to see what happens!



So, are you done yet?
























How about now?



:D

[Reaper1]

if you are going to go to all that trouble, just machine/weld up a custom bellhousing and use a quaife sequential box. :)

Brian

I've thought about and drempt about doing that as well. Honestly, if I'm going through THAT much effort already, RWD here I come!

[turboshad]

The car went together yesterday but I have a no start :( I modified the computer for sequential injection and COP so it was a big unkown since I also had to build a circuit for the cam and get it all synced up. Tonight I will be working hard to get it started and if I do then I should be good for the races. If it doesn't happen I'm still in good shape to hit a Friday night street legal when I can get it sorted out.

[BadAssPerformance]

Bummer, good luck man! *fingers crossed*

[Aries_Turbo]

you use the circuits on unas page? theyll work on the 2.4 cam and crank sensors just fine.

http://www.turbododge.info/22manual/Chrysler_2.2_2.5_MegaSquirt_Manual/Chrysler_2.2_2.5_mode_on_the_MegaSquirt.html

Brian

[zin]

This tells me they have too much money making work to bother with onesy-twosies, unless someone wants to pay them a crazy amount of money (the quoted $5000). Basically they don't want to do it and so you'd have to make them an offer they can't refuse, which in all likelihood means you could have them made from scratch by a "normal" machine shop for much less... Or find another specialty shop that isn't as busy!

Mike

[turboshad]

I would rather keep the clutch light and avoid things like this.

I did also remove 4 1/2lbs from the rotating end by way of a lightened flywheel and un-sprung hub.

As for the liberty stuff, I came across them a while ago so my plan was to take the 523 gears from the 3.85 transmission I stole the FD from and start experimenting with them to see what kind of filler, pre-heat, post cool ect. would work well. I like the idea of a dogged tranny with helical gears. I'm definitely not making any guarantees to when I'll get to that one though.

Well the car runs now so that's a good thing. Unless something drastic happens on Sat. I should be good to race on Sun. My plan is to race the day like I would normally shift since there is a decent amount of $$ on the line. This will at least show if they can hold up to the power under "normal" hard shift conditions. Assuming that goes well I will look at hitting up a street legal where I have nothing to lose and can see how it WOT shifts. I find the one of the biggest challenges is mentally not lifting my right foot which is usually followed by the challenge of the synchros behaving like crap. Hopefully that will be all but a past memory. :D

[Reeves]

How's it street drive?

[turboshad]

How's it street drive?

I don't know. It revs really nice :) I'll take out on Sat for a bit to make sure the tune hasn't changed much.

PS, I don't really like the new :D I don't feel it expresses my true emotions like the old one did.

[Reeves]

I don't know. It revs really nice :) I'll take out on Sat for a bit to make sure the tune hasn't changed much.

PS, I don't really like the new :D I don't feel it expresses my true emotions like the old one did.

You got the new crash box gears in right?

[Shadow]

You got the new crash box gears in right?

I think he's just reving it up and down in his garage right now. Unlike the both of us who would instantly take it for a ride the moment it's running and not a second later, DJ has.........Patience :love:, kind of like when your first in love. :) He can wait for Saturdays ride while all along he savours the anticipation of what's to come! ;):p

[turboshad]

Or I was missing the front wheels, it needs an alignment and it was 10 at night while I still had an oil change to do and button up the wiring. :) Pre-natal class tonight so Sat it will be. I also don't have a dash so I will bend up a quick piece of aluminum to hold the cluster and some gauges so if I do get pulled over I have a standing chance. But as far as I can tell the gears haven't fallen out of the tranny yet. :thumb:

[Reaper1]

Any updates?! It's now Sunday EST!

[turboshad]

No updates that anyone wants to hear. The car is missing at any RPM over 2000 and I've run out of time to figure it out. I'm sure it's something simple but I won't be making the race. I'm pretty discouraged as I put in over 60 hrs in the last two weeks to make the event. As soon as I get it figured out I will be out to the street legals.

[Shadow]

Keep at'er bro, we're All rooting for you! :clap:

[Reeves]

Dang......

Got it fixed yet?













How about now?

[turboshad]

Dang......

Got it fixed yet?

Oddly enough yes. With a fresh look it took me about 1/2hr to figure it out. Turns out the lean AFRs I thought were from the misfire were actually the cause of the misfire. Added a little fuel and what do you know....who woulda thunk? I think I was just too tired to think straight. I'm pretty busy this week so I won't have any time for it but it will be driven next week for sure and if the weather holds then maybe to the races on the Friday.

[Reaper1]

Here's some interesting info I just stumbled on. Apparently Liberty Gears made the transmission for the M4S "Wraith" car! They ended up using straight cut gears and a force oiled system (I knew that last one). I'm thinking they would have had to start with the A525, so hence the failures they experienced. Anyway, it's in the middle of this article on ALLPAR: http://www.allpar.com/racing/joe-pappas-m4s.html

Here are the pertinent parts for those that don't want to read the whole article (which if you are a fan of TM's, then you should anyway!).

"The transmission was the next order of business. Chrysler didn't really have an adequate transmission to handle the torque output of the engine. They had that little 5-speed transaxle transmission. We knew that wouldn't be strong enough, so Chrysler went to Weissman Transmissions out in California and had him build a couple of his own versions of the best we could do with the Mopar 5-speed"

"First we took it to the Transportation Research Center (TRC) in Ohio for our initial testing. At that point we were just trying to work the bugs out. The first bug: we made about one lap around the very small TRC oval and the Weissman transmission let go. We put in a second transmission. That one did three laps before it let go. Doesn't say much for those transmissions! And it was labor-intensive to replace transmissions because you had to pull the back half of the body off, pull the engine out, then you changed the transmission, and put everything back together. Probably a 12- or 14-hour ordeal."

"So Larry Rathgeb and Tom Coddington put their heads together and they decided we should go see Joe Liberty, at his Liberty Gears shop in Allen Park, Michigan, down the block from Ford world headquarters. We had known Joe from drag racing days in the Seventies. Just the nicest gentleman and really smart about transmissions. I had first met him when I was working with Mike Fons. And Joe and Donnie Carlton were pretty good friends. It's a pretty tight community here, Gene. Everybody knows everybody! Especially among Chrysler people.

We took one of the transmissions to Joe, and opened it up down there. Joe looks at it and we started talking about it what we could do better. The work went in baby steps. We'd strengthen one part of the transmission, like make a new cluster from scratch. Then we had to do the main shaft, then the different gears. We eventually set it up to force-filter oil through it because it hadn't been getting enough lubrication.

That is, Joe Liberty did the actual fabrication under the supervision of Larry and Tom. We kept chasing the failures and went through three or four different versions. The first one probably had one set of fixes in it. The next one had that, plus a few more fixes. And the next one, etc. We tested each one as they got assembled. We went and tested and broke things. Then we went back to Joe, and said, okay, now what do we do? He'd redo things and have them ready in a week, and we'd go and pickup the new version. We ended up with a transmission built completely from scratch. A spur-gear transmission (straight-cut gears vs. helical cut), the kind used by a lot of motocycles, especially motocross bikes. They're very noisy boxes. You can always tell a spur-gear transmission when you hear it. But they are really, really strong. Joe built a wonderful transmission. We spent a ton of money on the transmission alone, too!

Gene: When all the work was done, who owned the transmission? It didn't originate on Chrysler drawing boards.

Joe: Good question. I'm not sure. The Liberty transmission that we ended up with to the best of my memory did not have any formal Chrysler Engineering drawings made of it. It is a safe bet that Joe Liberty made plenty of sketches and reference drawings so that he could keep everything straight in order to build multiple copies of the transmission. I remember speaking to Doug Shepherd, a Chrysler engineer and former SCCA Pro Rallye champion, about this transmission because he was contemplating having one built for his rallye car.

Finally after huge expense and a lot of labor we had a transmission that would live. That engine put out a ton of torque for the time and a fair amount of horsepower. It was a 2.2-liter four-cylinder engine that put out probably 440 lbs. of torque, and at least that much horsepower, on just a few pounds of boost. If you really boost the engine, adjusting the waste gate on the turbochargers, you are going to create a lot of horsepower."

So...they went through all that to get a transmission that would live at only 440lbft! Geeze...makes ya wonder how much of their trials and tribulations went into the A555/A568?

[fishcleaner]

Enough reading, put the damn car in gear.......hahahaha

[trannybuster]

Ive always wished we could get straight cut gears for our trans, lots of power lost with helical cut.

[black86glhs]

Think about the abuse they would handle. Of course, we would need to upgrade other parts very soon. lol

[Ondonti]

We seem to get away with a lot in our later transmissions since 5th gear is a bolt on instead of an extention of the stack. Import guys in ALL platforms drop down to 4 gears when they go crazy to prevent deflection in the stack (creating a shorter stack).
That is why I am not worried about our gears.

[turboshad]

Ive always wished we could get straight cut gears for our trans, lots of power lost with helical cut.

I have high doubts more than 3 or maybe 4 people on this whole forum would pony up for a straight cut dog box. This isn't a high ticket item group so the chances of anyone other than the very serious MT guys would pay over 5000 for a gear set is pretty dang slim. If I thought differently I would already be developing one.

[cordes]

I have high doubts more than 3 or maybe 4 people on this whole forum would pony up for a straight cut dog box. This isn't a high ticket item group so the chances of anyone other than the very serious MT guys would pay over 5000 for a gear set is pretty dang slim. If I thought differently I would already be developing one.

I doubt they would want to put up with the noise either. Reverse is loud enough for me thank you.

[Vigo]

Yep. Maybe if it was a pro-level WRC car i would happily deal with that noise, otherwise i wouldnt deal with it at all.

[BadAssPerformance]

I doubt they would want to put up with the noise either. Reverse is loud enough for me thank you.

There are a few of us that wouldn't mind, LOL Dooo eeet DJ! :thumb:

[Ondonti]

I would not mind the noise, but I would rather drop 5k into a fancy lockup 41te if the oem controller ever gets figured out.
Keep 4th and 5th, helical. Even just a stock 5th gear would be fine. I try to avoid driving in anything below 4th gear. 1-3 straight cut is normal. How much are the actual power gains though. Most people go straight cut to avoid spreading the gearbox apart, not for gains.
I don't know what the point of just straight cut 1st and 2nd would be if we never break them and probably can't put down all the power anyways. I don't know the point of straight cut gears at all unless the gains somehow are worth the cost. Even the time Reeves broke a trans and we at first all thought it was a weakness, it was a seized bearing.
Just about every other mass produced 5 speed out there is a pile of crap that strips gears when the stack deflects. Not ours.

[Reaper1]

Straight cut gears allow 100% torque transfer between the shafts. A helical gear will change some of the torque into thrust on the shaft. There are slipping and heat losses assocaited with this. The one advantage is that you have more than 1 tooth engaged at a time spreading the load, but because the pitch can't be as agressive the structure of the teeth will still be weaker. Motorcycles use straight cut gearboxes and you can't hear those. Of course they are burried in the crankcase, so maybe the engine noise overpowers it?

[shackwrrr]

Strait cut gears are actually weaker in comparison to helical cut gears if the width of the gear is the same. Most strait cut gears are made wider to strengthen them. The gains are they are more efficient and the lack of thrust on the shaft.

[Vigo]

I agree with Brent. It's an expensive, nonsensical tree to bark up with these transmissions. The shifting issue DJ is working on is something else, but the helical gears are a magic bullet to kill a straw man.. nonsense upon nonsense. :p

[black86glhs]

Rabble...rabble...rabble...rabble.
I wanted to add some nonsense,too. :)

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[Reaper1]

I don't think the solution is straight cut gears at all! That is something that was brought up because of its association with other race transmissions.

We would benefit the most from the face dog modification. THAT is something I think we could make for our transmissions practically, and there DOES seem to be a market for it, and that market will only grow as these transmissions get older and harder to find good parts for.

[cordes]

I don't think the solution is straight cut gears at all! That is something that was brought up because of its association with other race transmissions.

We would benefit the most from the face dog modification. THAT is something I think we could make for our transmissions practically, and there DOES seem to be a market for it, and that market will only grow as these transmissions get older and harder to find good parts for.

I forget my exact time table, but I think my prediction has 1-2 years left before we will see custom shafts and ring gears being made. I don't think it will be too much longer before we see the true dog box mod at this point.

[Reaper1]

I think I tend to agree and also hope for that!

[turboshad]

Well I finally got some gremlins figured out and was able to go for a nice long drive last night. I have more tuning to do so I wasn't able to get into any real boost or hard shifts but from regular driving I can't even tell any difference. It goes into 3&4 just as smooth as it always did with no clunks or jerks from the added space in the synchros. As I start bringing things up I'll keep reporting but so far so good. Oh, and the new TU solid hub 4 puck is smooth as silk. Just as smooth if not smoother than my sprung hub 4 puck. :thumb:

[Reeves]

Well I finally got some gremlins figured out and was able to go for a nice long drive last night. I have more tuning to do so I wasn't able to get into any real boost or hard shifts but from regular driving I can't even tell any difference. It goes into 3&4 just as smooth as it always did with no clunks or jerks from the added space in the synchros. As I start bringing things up I'll keep reporting but so far so good.

That's great news!

[Shadow]

Oh, and the new TU solid hub 4 puck is smooth as silk. Just as smooth if not smoother than my sprung hub 4 puck. :thumb:

Really makes you wonder about most MTX drivers out there as when I researched "solid hub" discs, 9 out of 10 said "Undrivable on the street!" :lol:

Lucky I'm one of those who has Never listened to the masses, and has always been able to Gleen the truth through the one or two ppl who can actually give a "true account" of what the difference really is!

Not unlike yourselfith your "Enough talk, time to just go for it!" Crashbox mods! :nod:

Keep up the Great work Bro! :thumb:

[Ondonti]

The solid 4 puck in my Spirit is fairly terrible ever since I didn't want to get a new cover or new friction plate and I was just being cheap, but on an OEM plate and new cover my 3 puck solid drives great in my Duster.

My biggest problem with clutch "feel" has been the slop in transmissions and honestly sprung hub seems to be just as bad or maybe worse as it allows even more play back and forth. I don't know what to call that back and forth play. This is why I don't like transmission shops saying "get a junkyard trans, it will be cheaper."

That extra slop back and forth also makes me fear more for harsh gear changes then anything else. Not sure how many different bearings have to be reshimmed to make most of this go away. I am pretty sure that slop also contributes to broken axles, which is why a staging brake should be in all our MTX cars.

Now, the thing to see is if the Crash box is a good setup to bother going with and completely refreshing the trans, or hope 1-2 years for dog :o For a daily I guess neither would be needed.

[Reaper1]

I believe the word you are looking for is lash.

[Nemesismachine]

Can we get some video?

[Reeves]

updates?

[turboshad]

Can we get some video?


Besides the fact that I don't really have a video camera that would work well, what would you want video of? The shifting? Just think of shifting normally and it being grind free. Just like that. ;) The most notchy gear is down shifting into 1st from 2nd with the added springs. The rest of the gears feel just like they did before.


updates?

Good timing, I was out tonight finally to do some tuning. I have never been able to flat shift from 3rd to 4th and tonight I made many 6500-7000RPM flat shifts with not a single hitch. It felt as smooth as shifting normally and there was never even a hint of grind. Previously it just wouldn't go and I would get the brick wall shift that didn't go in. The pulls were in the 18-20psi range with relatively fast clutch action.I could have jabbed the clutch a touch faster but wanted to start off a bit easier. Either way it is something I have never been able to do before. I will try to get a shot of the log up tomorrow that shows the shift but so far I am pretty happy with it. I'm using a MTL/MT90 mix for fluid and that has also been working well. I should be able to get to the track on Friday and try it out in the real world. :thumb:

[Directconnection]

Sounds like a success so far!

[Shadow]

Sounds promissing indeed! KUTGW!!!!!:thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

Awesome! Go abuse it on Friday and make me a set on Saturday :thumb:

[Reaper1]

^^ +1! :thumb:

[turboshad]

I made it to the track and threw down 3 WOT runs with a top speed of 129.98mph. I missed 3rd on the second run but I think that was more me trying to rush the shift too much. So I would say it's been a success since I've never been able to that before. I should mention that I also changed to a solid hub 4 puck from a sprung hub and a lightened flywheel but I don't think those alone would have made the tranny shift like it does now. I guess the question now is how long will it last. :)

[Reaper1]

Bring the car to me, I'll let ya know how long it lasts! ;) :thumb:

[135sohc]

Through all of this are you still using the oem plastic fork inserts or did you have something else created and installed?

[turboshad]

OEM plastic. I just use the best ones of what I have. To be honest if this transmission grenades it would be hard not to build a strong T-850 since you can still get parts. I have one sitting on the garage floor just in case.

[135sohc]

Cant say I blame you. Rage-tek 1-4 dog box, all the rest of the parts are still readily available from mopar or improved aftermarket offerings.

[Reaper1]

Has adapting the T850 to the 2.2 been discussed? I've never really thought about it until now that much.

[BadAssPerformance]

I made it to the track and threw down 3 WOT runs with a top speed of 129.98mph. I missed 3rd on the second run but I think that was more me trying to rush the shift too much. So I would say it's been a success since I've never been able to that before. I should mention that I also changed to a solid hub 4 puck from a sprung hub and a lightened flywheel but I don't think those alone would have made the tranny shift like it does now. I guess the question now is how long will it last. :)

It's junk! Take it out and build that T850... Oh, and then bring that junk to SDAC so I can haz it for scrap value :p

BTW... you wanna make me a set? :eyebrows: I'm gonan have to take this trans apart anyways.... LMK ;)


Has adapting the T850 to the 2.2 been discussed? I've never really thought about it until now that much.

It would be a PITA... the A568 work well on the 2.4L and 2.2L cuz there is not much to deal with on the back of the block on either engine. The T850 has the starter on the front and the front ear of the block is right in the way, among other stuff...

[135sohc]

http://www.rage-tek.com/product.php?productid=17083&cat=1009&page=1

[Reeves]

BTW... you wanna make me a set? :eyebrows: I'm gonan have to take this trans apart anyways.... LMK ;)

Same here...I'm still in. Don't forget me DJ! :)

[black86glhs]

It's junk! Take it out and build that T850... Oh, and then bring that junk to SDAC so I can haz it for scrap value :p

BTW... you wanna make me a set? :eyebrows: I'm gonan have to take this trans apart anyways.... LMK ;)



It would be a PITA... the A568 work well on the 2.4L and 2.2L cuz there is not much to deal with on the back of the block on either engine. The T850 has the starter on the front and the front ear of the block is right in the way, among other stuff...


Same here...I'm still in. Don't forget me DJ! :)Is this a you do for me, I'll do for you kind of thing? If it is, what gets done in return will determine who is rinsing out their mouths and who is in the shower trying to get clean?



:lol::lol:

[Ondonti]

That Rage Tek box has been around for quite awhile and who is actually running one more then a few passes lol. T850 is not exactly a good trans.

There are rumors of Red Sled trying a dogbox but it won't be anything available now.

[turboshad]

Rage-Tek is apparently out. They had some mechanical problems and then weren't delivering when people handed over the cash. Someone else is also working on one. I was interested in designing a dogbox for the 568 case but if I'm going that far I might as well redesign the whole case to be stronger as well at which point pretty much every part is custom. Regardless I have other things to buy before dropping 5-7gs on a tranny......or more. :eek:

As for the gears, Kieth, the machinist that helped me with mine, said he would machine more. Obviously there would be no warranty as it is a race mod/use at your own risk. I would offer the service on purely R&D terms. PM me if you want prices and if there were 3 sets it would make life easier and possible a couple bucks cheaper but probably not a lot.

[135sohc]

Me and another member had briefly discussed the idea of reproducing a few of the most needed components like new 3-4 synchronizer sliders and new 3rd & 4th gears for the 568/555 but it would require a serious commitment from the group to arrange a group-buy. And like DJ mentioned: at what point are you better off adapting/developing a new transmission that will take care of the known issues our 5 speeds have. Mostly lacking a pilot bearing and really needing a better bearing setup on the pinion shaft.

[Reeves]

Rage-Tek is apparently out. They had some mechanical problems and then weren't delivering when people handed over the cash. Someone else is also working on one. I was interested in designing a dogbox for the 568 case but if I'm going that far I might as well redesign the whole case to be stronger as well at which point pretty much every part is custom. Regardless I have other things to buy before dropping 5-7gs on a tranny......or more. :eek:

As for the gears, Kieth, the machinist that helped me with mine, said he would machine more. Obviously there would be no warranty as it is a race mod/use at your own risk. I would offer the service on purely R&D terms. PM me if you want prices and if there were 3 sets it would make life easier and possible a couple bucks cheaper but probably not a lot.

Maybe start a thread on it?

[turboshad]

Me and another member had briefly discussed the idea of reproducing a few of the most needed components like new 3-4 synchronizer sliders and new 3rd & 4th gears for the 568/555 but it would require a serious commitment from the group to arrange a group-buy. And like DJ mentioned: at what point are you better off adapting/developing a new transmission that will take care of the known issues our 5 speeds have. Mostly lacking a pilot bearing and really needing a better bearing setup on the pinion shaft.

When I was doing the synchros I thought about it but the closer I looked the more I thought there is no way I could easily reproduce that. Maybe if you found a gear company with all the tooling already but definitely not on a small scale in a non-specialized shop.


Maybe start a thread on it?

Start a thread on machining them or on dogbox design?

[Reeves]

Start a thread on machining them or on dogbox design?

This is a thread on dogbox design isn't it? I meant start a thread or group buy on you getting them machined.

[BadAssPerformance]

Start a thread on machining them or on dogbox design?

Yeah a thread for a group buy on Crash Box gears... :thumb: Looks like me, Reeves are in, I am sure we can get at least one more... or maybe more?

[Shadow]

At least one more for sure ;)

[Reaper1]

Me too! I'd be in for a set of 555 crash gears! :thumb:

[turboshad]

I will start a thread soon. I'm trying to sell my house and buy an acreage so I'm swamped right now. I don't want to start anything until I can deliver but at the same point I don't think many people will be drag racing until spring. You can probably look for something in early January. Also, I think this goes without saying but you would need to send me the gear set you want modified. I just emptied my stock on my transmission last year. :)

[BadAssPerformance]

Cool deal DJ, good luck on the houses and keep us posted!

January sounds good... PLEASE keep in mind that spring is March down this way, not June like by you Mr. Uranium City ;)

BTW, what kinda cores do you need? Good ones, or are ones with chewed up dog teeth OK since half of them will be cut off anyways?

[Shadow]

BTW, what kinda cores do you need? Good ones, or are ones with chewed up dog teeth OK since half of them will be cut off anyways?

I would guess that depends on what concerns You. Do you want to invest in a gear that is already 1/2 worn away and may shift poorly because of it?

Unless of coarse, you happen to have some gears with every Other tooth worn, I could see that working OK :)

Either way, I want a guarantee that my minty gears will Not get mixed up with JT's junky ones and then He's shifting minty and I'm like WTF? :confused:








































:):eyebrows:

[fishcleaner]

DJ, how close are you to Roscoe, IL. http://www.cgearinc.com/service.asp
I can draw parts in CAD and we could send it out for quotes, we may be surprised at the prices and get exactly what will work.

[turboshad]

Cool deal DJ, good luck on the houses and keep us posted!

January sounds good... PLEASE keep in mind that spring is March down this way, not June like by you Mr. Uranium City ;)

BTW, what kinda cores do you need? Good ones, or are ones with chewed up dog teeth OK since half of them will be cut off anyways?

Thanks JT, we are really hoping to get it. 30x30 2 storey walk out garage with heated floors and finally some room to store projects. :eyebrows:

As for cores I could care less. I'm just taking every other tooth off of what ever you give me. I'm providing a service not a product :thumb:
I couldn't really comment on the outcome using some chewed up dogs as I've only done it once and I wanted to be sure it worked so I chose the best ones I could find from my 2 trannies. Theory would say that it wouldn't matter quite as much but if a shift does happen to land with two dogs clashing it still needs to deflect the synchro to the open spot.


DJ, how close are you to Roscoe, IL. http://www.cgearinc.com/service.asp
I can draw parts in CAD and we could send it out for quotes, we may be surprised at the prices and get exactly what will work.

I'm pretty close. It looks like it's only 1547 miles. We could meet for coffee if you like ;) Any good machine shop shouldn't need a drawing to do this as it's fairly straight forward. I did mine with some calipers and a calculator. The time comes in setup like most machining which is why short runs cost so much. That being said there is a good chance people your way may be willing to work for a bit less then my way. The oil patch keeps this province pretty swamped which usually drives up prices. As for modelling it I work with SolidWorks 8hrs a day, 5 days a week so I should be OK there. Thank you for the offer though as the more people we have willing to model stuff in the community the better.

[BadAssPerformance]

I would guess that depends on what concerns You. Do you want to invest in a gear that is already 1/2 worn away and may shift poorly because of it?

LOL, guess you missed my question... which is, with every other one gone, does it matter as much? or at all?


DJ, how close are you to Roscoe, IL. http://www.cgearinc.com/service.asp
I can draw parts in CAD and we could send it out for quotes, we may be surprised at the prices and get exactly what will work.

I'm a little closer than DJ, LOL, but there are probably fifty machine shops closer than that to me...


Thanks JT, we are really hoping to get it. 30x30 2 storey walk out garage with heated floors and finally some room to store projects. :eyebrows:

Sounds awesome! :thumb:


As for cores I could care less. I'm just taking every other tooth off of what ever you give me. I'm providing a service not a product :thumb:
I couldn't really comment on the outcome using some chewed up dogs as I've only done it once and I wanted to be sure it worked so I chose the best ones I could find from my 2 trannies. Theory would say that it wouldn't matter quite as much but if a shift does happen to land with two dogs clashing it still needs to deflect the synchro to the open spot.

Yeah, thats why I asked... wondered what you had used. In theory it shouldn't matter as much... guess I'll let the price determine the quality of the gears or teh quantity of the gears I send. ;)

[135sohc]

I'd say do it on a set of hammered gears and try to find a synchronizer slider thats not NOS condition (cause thats just a waste) but dont use one thats hammered out either so you have 'some' streetability.

On my daily driver 3rd gear (568) is pretty well done. Put it back together with the same destroyed slider and that mofo would grind worse than a stripper on her first day.... Talk about BAD.

Upshift and dont get it just right: !!!CLASH!!!, forget even trying to downshift.. Did an in-car take apart putting in a good used slider that wasnt dulled and hammered over and its been golden ever since.

[fishcleaner]

whoops, got my JT & DJ mixed up.

[BadAssPerformance]

I'd say do it on a set of hammered gears and try to find a synchronizer slider thats not NOS condition (cause thats just a waste) but dont use one thats hammered out either so you have 'some' streetability.

On my daily driver 3rd gear (568) is pretty well done. Put it back together with the same destroyed slider and that mofo would grind worse than a stripper on her first day.... Talk about BAD.

Upshift and dont get it just right: !!!CLASH!!!, forget even trying to downshift.. Did an in-car take apart putting in a good used slider that wasnt dulled and hammered over and its been golden ever since.

Funny thing, the last time I had mine apart this year (out the side) I put in the 3rd gear that I pulled out last year as it was better than the one that got abused this year! And it worked great this time!, Well, no WOT shifting, but no missed shifts the last 3 times out this year... WTF!? The 20 year old shift cable bushings were done, so the plastic ones I cobbled up to go is seemed to help more than anything in the trans :)


whoops, got my JT & DJ mixed up.

LOL, I guessed that :thumb:

I'm guessing DJ's guy is already set up to do it, so should be more cost effective? But really, there are many local shops I could have do it, really doesn't need to be a "gear shop" just someone who knows how to work with hardened tool steels. Heck, The closest CNC to my house is walking distance at my neighbor, but his machine is usually too busy making money (to pay for it) to break in on R&D stuff LOL!

[Shadow]

LOL, guess you missed my question... which is, with every other one gone, does it matter as much? or at all?



Didn't miss your Q at all, was just surprised you asked, but that's just me. I'm not going to invest in trashed gears when I already know that this mod works well and common sense tells me it will work better, the better the condition the gears are in.

Having said that, I also Get your point, you prob have more trashed gears than good, and would be nice to make use of them. I would be more than willing to support you in this endevor by throwing $10.00 your way toward having a trashed set done, just to see if it works! :)

[BadAssPerformance]

I think it will work... Jackson and I were talking at the last SDAC Chicagoland meet and I asked him to collect up his cores

[Ondonti]

Still not sure about the excitement over T850's. They Shear input shafts on street tires.

[BadAssPerformance]

I think the only reason was they are more current and have more parts available.

Part of the reason I put the A568 behind the 2.4L instead of the T850 is because of the high RPM issues the T850 allegedly has.

[Shadow]

Still not sure about the excitement over T850's. They Shear input shafts on street tires.

They also go 10's in a 3000lb car IF driven right ;) But I hear what your saying. It would seem that they have more problems than ours trannies, but is that the case, or have they just been abused on a much larger scale with more averag TQ put to them?

It does surprise me that not one of us at the higher end have sheared an input shaft yet! This was a great concern of mine when I decided to go solid hub, and I'm still small spline, cutting 1.5X 60's! :)

[Ondonti]

Yes, every time I broke an axle I thought maybe I sheared an input shaft....Even with incredibly destructive wheel hop on slicks. Then I know people with SRT-4's who have sheared input shafts at street races on street tires.

[Reeves]

I will start a thread soon. I'm trying to sell my house and buy an acreage so I'm swamped right now. I don't want to start anything until I can deliver but at the same point I don't think many people will be drag racing until spring. You can probably look for something in early January. Also, I think this goes without saying but you would need to send me the gear set you want modified. I just emptied my stock on my transmission last year. :)

Any updates?

[mock_glh]

The odd number of teeth (39) on the 2nd gear synchro had me stumped but then if I remove 2 teeth between the ones that remain it will work. That only leaves 13 teeth but then the gear itself has 4 gaps with each one missing 4 teeth, which leave only 23 engaging as stock. Is anyone doing this? I'll be using a 2nd gear from an A555 (modified to fit) which doesn't have all the missing teeth.

[Ondonti]

With no new synchros available I don't think the excitement level is high for any sort of modification.