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Austrian Dodge
08-01-2011, 02:17 PM
so i've spent another afternoon on the dyno trying to dial in the car.

we ran into some issues i'd like to share and get some opinions as i think there's a lot of people here who might have some helpfull hints.

-) high EGTs
nearly every run endet in like 1650-1700° at 7000rpm.
part throttle tuning with like 10 PSI @ 4000rpm ... EGTs climbed till 1700°

-) power drops after 5300rpm
need to get the dynographs but as far as i remember it dropped like over 100whp till redline

-) peak power was around 5300rpm @ 19PSI then boost creeped to like 30PSI while power was dropping.
this is what worries me most.

we tried playing with cam timing, upping ignition timing, flooding the engine to like 9.0 AFR at redline
couldn't bring the EGTs under 1600°

i know that the BKR7Es plugs are too hot, so i just bought some iridium plugs 2 heat ranges colder.
also i'll be dropping the turbo and porting the !"§"$" out of the wastegate hole to get a little more control on boost creep (if that doesn't help, i'll go external wastegate....was trying to avoid but oh well)

i'll download my map tomorrow, post the timing table and try to get most of the dynographs uploaded from last friday.

this is my setup btw:
2.4l swap
- 8.2 compression pistons
- ported N/A head with 36mm IN valves (+1mm) and 30.5mm EX valves (+1mm)
- 2.0 N/A Dodge Neon IN and EX cams (i have to admit, that i just set the cams to TDC when assembling the engine and didn't measure them - so i can't be sure if these are in fact 2.0 cams)
- adj. cam gears
- custom intake with 65mm throttle body
- obx SS exhaust manifold
- GT3076R with .82 exhaust housing (with ATPs 3" internal wastegate swingvalve)
- 3" straight through turbo back exhaust
- 72pph fuel injectors

could the power loss come from 2.4 cams instead of the 2.0?
i know that colder plugs will help with EGTs ... but really that much??
clearly there's something wrong or failed somewhere ;)

please lmk what you guys think.
any advice/help is greatly appreciated!

Vigo
08-01-2011, 09:08 PM
So what were the EGT's like at the power peak @ 19psi? I'm just trying to figure out if the EGTs were fine until it was creeping up to 30.

BadAssPerformance
08-01-2011, 09:41 PM
Andy, I don't run EGT so nothing to help ya there... For a reference point, my TOTAL timing at 30psi is only 12° ... running 110 octane, 11-11.5:1 A/F

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------



-) power drops after 5300rpm
need to get the dynographs but as far as i remember it dropped like over 100whp till redline

-) peak power was around 5300rpm @ 19PSI then boost creeped to like 30PSI while power was dropping.
this is what worries me most.

we tried playing with cam timing, upping ignition timing, flooding the engine to like 9.0 AFR at redline
couldn't bring the EGTs under 1600°


Peak power at 5300rpm/19psi then lower power at 30psi at higher RPM? Sounds fishy?

What was your Duty Cycle?
What were your Intake Air Temps?
What cams? Zeroed?
Got a screen shot of your total ignition timing?

Austrian Dodge
08-02-2011, 04:36 AM
honestly, i can't remember EGTs at peak power RPM. i'm guessing it was around 1550° as there were climbing synronous to RPMs.

didn't log the injectors DC but according to Witchhunters fuel injector calculator it should be around 80% at 43.5 psi (i'm running 48 psi), not much left, but still they should be at least on the edge of OK ;)

intake temp was 37° C (=98.6° F), ambient temp was 25.5° (=77.9°F) with about 65% humidity that day.

cams...thats my problem, i bought 2.0 neon cams, and my biggest fault was not to measure them.
i dropped them in, set them at TDC with the special tool (lined up the two holes) and put the cam gears on.
which initally set the exhaust cam gear to +6° and the intake to +4°. looked OK to me considering factory manufacturing tolerances.

the actual dyno map is still on the ECU, but'll drive out tonight and download it and will post a screenshot of the complete timing.
it's definitely WAY more conservative than what AEM supplies as a standard SRT-4 timing map.

tank was filled with 98 octance ROZ (not AON like your gas stations state) ... so 98octane of our fuel should equal to 93octane what you guys get at the gas station.

cordes
08-02-2011, 10:03 AM
Was it pulling timing at all?

Juggy
08-02-2011, 10:06 AM
Was it pulling timing at all?

it sounds like there is not enough timing.

in which high EGT's are a result of. slap some more timing and it will bring down EGT temps, and also improve power :D

rx2mazda
08-02-2011, 10:36 AM
What are your plugs saying?

cordes
08-02-2011, 10:47 AM
it sounds like there is not enough timing.

in which high EGT's are a result of. slap some more timing and it will bring down EGT temps, and also improve power :D

Assuming that his EGTs are high for the motor. What is common for the 2.4s?

Vigo
08-02-2011, 12:22 PM
we tried... upping ignition timing,

reading rainbow guys. reading rainbow

cordes
08-02-2011, 12:45 PM
reading rainbow guys. reading rainbow


I'm not sure that this invalidates my question.

BadAssPerformance
08-02-2011, 01:35 PM
cams...thats my problem, i bought 2.0 neon cams, and my biggest fault was not to measure them.
i dropped them in, set them at TDC with the special tool (lined up the two holes) and put the cam gears on.
which initally set the exhaust cam gear to +6° and the intake to +4°. looked OK to me considering factory manufacturing tolerances.


Initially the cams were set to +4°I/+6°E ? Did you try them straight up 0°/0° ?

Vigo
08-02-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure that this invalidates my question.

I suppose i should not have pluralized 'guy'. lol.

Austrian Dodge
08-02-2011, 06:07 PM
by upping ignition timing i meant that i bumped the timing up 3° in the upper RPM/boost ranges in my timing table.

i didn't try 0 / 0 cam timing, as i wanted to see how changing the cam timing would affect EGTs.
advanced EX cam was super hot, retarded was still too hot - so i didn't even mess with 0 / 0 cam timing at the degree wheels.

plugs show that they were exposed to very high combustion temperature, and they yell to me to get the 9s in it!
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/942/medium/plugs.jpg

i've heard that octance booster can turn plugs into funny colors, but not heat alone.


here's my timing map
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/942/timingmap.JPG

Directconnection
08-02-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm guessing the issue lies in the cams....

Vigo
08-02-2011, 07:42 PM
Im guessing cams at this point too.

Although i was noticing that you start to pull timing at a very low boost level.. is that necessary? I dont know if thats relevant to your EGT thing, but seems very conservative.

rx2mazda
08-02-2011, 07:53 PM
I think timing is the issue.

turbovanmanČ
08-02-2011, 08:40 PM
Timing and barring that, cams. I know you know this but you should have degreed the cams so you had a true baseline for them.

7 is a cold plug, stock is a 5, although I run 9's in all my engines. If your not detonation, no point running a super cold plug, and yours look fine.

BadAssPerformance
08-02-2011, 11:52 PM
The EGT might be caused by timing, cams or both? I originaly brought up the cams due to it making peak power at a low-ish RPM.

You have a dowel pin tool... and adjustable sprockets to zero everything out... Why not start at 0°/0° ?

FWIW, I run these plugs:
32913

Austrian Dodge
08-03-2011, 03:44 AM
aligning the cams with the dowel pin tool showed +6° EX and +4° IN on the ajd. cam gear sprockets. that's what i figured is the true 0° / 0° setting
man, i could bite myself in the !§$ for not degreeing them!

so do you think i just set the cam timing wrong or the cams not beeing 2.0 cams? i have stock 2.4 cams in the shop, is there a chance i could measure a difference with a vernier caliper? i mean, probably just the lift.

@vigo:
you're right, it's a very conservative timing map. i figured this is a good starting point to add timing and not having to reduce it because of detonation.

that's what AEM has a stock SRT4 timing map, mines a lot less
32917

i tried this one also that day, but boost creeping to 30PSI showed knock on my KS-4 device

thanks for everyones help so far!!

turbovanmanČ
08-03-2011, 04:35 AM
FWIW, I run these plugs:
32913

Hmmmmmm, looks like a nice, recessed tip plug, :nod:



aligning the cams with the dowel pin tool showed +6° EX and +4° IN on the ajd. cam gear sprockets. that's what i figured is the true 0° / 0° setting
man, i could bite myself in the !§$ for not degreeing them!

so do you think i just set the cam timing wrong or the cams not beeing 2.0 cams? i have stock 2.4 cams in the shop, is there a chance i could measure a difference with a vernier caliper? i mean, probably just the lift.

@vigo:
you're right, it's a very conservative timing map. i figured this is a good starting point to add timing and not having to reduce it because of detonation.

that's what AEM has a stock SRT4 timing map, mines a lot less
32917

i tried this one also that day, but boost creeping to 30PSI showed knock on my KS-4 device

thanks for everyones help so far!!

Not sure on the 2.0L cams, has anyone here actually run them or shudder, the SRT forums?

Austrian Dodge
08-03-2011, 04:58 AM
i know DJ is running them in his shadow, and his power curve goes up till redline - peak power at 6400rpm. but he degreed them ;)

couldn't find info's on 2.4 cams though, i'm just guessing i got sent standard 2.4 cams and thats why power drops up top

Juggy
08-03-2011, 06:44 AM
Stage 2 608 960 1312 1440 1568 1888 2080 2496 2933.3 3370.6 3808 4320 4768 5216 5664 6112 6560
54 21 27 31 32 33.5 37.5 39 39.5 44.5 48.5 49 49 49 51 52 53 54
84 12.5 21.5 25 27.5 28.5 31.5 32 32.5 36.5 41 41.5 41.5 42 45 45.5 46.5 46.5
98 7 20 22.5 25 26.5 29 30 31 34 38.5 39 39 41 44 44 45 45
112 4 16 20 21 23.5 28.5 29.5 30.5 33.5 38 38.5 38 40 43.5 43.5 44.5 44.5
126 0 13 15 16 17 21.5 24 30 33 37 38.5 37 38.5 42.5 41.5 42 44
134 -2 10 12 14 15 19.5 20.5 29.5 33 36.5 38 36 38 40 39.5 40.5 42.5
142 -4 8 10 12 13.5 17 19 24 29.5 34 36.5 34.5 36 37.5 38 39 41.5
150 -6 5 7.5 11 12.5 16 18.5 21 25.5 29 34 34 34 36.5 36.5 38.5 40.5
158 -8 3 5 10 10.5 15 17.5 20 24 27 31 32 33 34.5 35 38 39.5
165 -10 1 3 8 10 13 15.5 17 22 26 29 30 32 33 35 37 40
172 -12 -1 1 6.5 9.5 12 14.5 16 20 24 27.5 28 30.5 32.5 33 36.5 38
179 -14 -3 -1 5 8 11 12.5 14.5 17 22.5 26 27.5 29.5 31.5 32.5 35.5 37
186 -15 -4 -2 4 7 10 11.5 13 16.5 21 24.5 26.5 28.5 30.5 32 34 36
197 -16 -5 -3 3 6 8.5 10 12 15 19.5 22.5 25 27 29 29 30.5 31
210 -18 -7 -5 1 4 7 7.5 11.5 14.5 19 21 23 24.5 25.5 25.5 27.5 28
225 -19 -8 -6 0 2 6 7.5 10 13 16.5 20 21.5 23 23 25 26.5 27.5
300 -27 -16 -14 -8 -6 -1 1 2 6 8 12 12 13 13.5 15 16 19



stage 2 spark curve my friend sent me awhile ago.....

shackwrrr
08-03-2011, 06:45 AM
lots of SRT guys running 2.0 cams

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=2.0+cams+in+srt

Juggy
08-03-2011, 06:45 AM
sorry about the format

Austrian Dodge
08-03-2011, 07:49 AM
i know that they're pretty common, that's why i'm confused about the HP/TQ drop

timing table looks very aggressive to me
@juggy: what's the original format? is that excel?

Juggy
08-03-2011, 08:56 AM
i know that they're pretty common, that's why i'm confused about the HP/TQ drop

timing table looks very aggressive to me
@juggy: what's the original format? is that excel?

i think so??? i tried to post the original format but it was 21,000 characters LOL....i can email it to you

BadAssPerformance
08-03-2011, 09:23 AM
aligning the cams with the dowel pin tool showed +6° EX and +4° IN on the ajd. cam gear sprockets. that's what i figured is the true 0° / 0° setting
man, i could bite myself in the !§$ for not degreeing them!

so do you think i just set the cam timing wrong or the cams not beeing 2.0 cams? i have stock 2.4 cams in the shop, is there a chance i could measure a difference with a vernier caliper? i mean, probably just the lift.


OK, so with the dowels in AND the Crank at #1 TDC, both CAMS should be "straight up" 0°/0°, regardless of what your cam sprockets say. So if this is what you did, and did not advance/retard either cam, then you had it degreed at 0°/0°.

The 2.4L/2.0L cam sprockets and dowels have a few degrees of play between them so I have seen cams being off a bit, but the dowel tool method is not perfect. With +4°/+6° it seems a little high and since they are both off similarly in the + direction, and the dowel holes move together (parallel) for a couple degrees parallel, I would re-zero those cams to double check them.

For those reading an dare thinking "WTF is this dowel tool and how to do this?" I have everything to write a KC article :thumb: just need time :(

The 2.0L cams have more lift than 2.4L cams which is why the 2.4L guys run them. I put most of the 2.0/2.4 cam dimensions in the KC article (that still needs to be moved over)

FWIW, I ran 2.4L (non-turbo) cams at first them switched to BC3's... DJ runs BC4's... I think Pachner runs stock 2.0L cams and he's quicker than both of us, LOL!

Austrian Dodge
08-03-2011, 05:53 PM
@juggy: my email is a.kiesewetter@dieconsult.at , thanks ;)

@JT: i'll double check and degree them once the turbine housing is ported, hopefully the new plugs will be there by then so i can take it out for a spin and post the results!
see, 2.0 cams are the way to go LOL

in case i find out that i have 2.4 cams i get the BC3's...was toying with the idea since last friday :)

thanks a lot!