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View Full Version : 1990 VNT Daytona 2.4 Project



ShelGame
06-17-2011, 11:04 PM
Well, here she is in all her glory. Not a bad starting point, really. Got a ton of spares in the deal (Thanks Jeff :thumb:), including a complete black interior and a set of 15" pumpers. The car's full, the back of the truck is full - it's a lot of stuff. Only the engine bay is empty :(

Vigo
06-18-2011, 03:00 AM
monochrome paint and gfx. I like that combo. :)

supercrackerbox
06-18-2011, 12:49 PM
That is my old car! I bought it from a guy in Sedalia, MO, but ended up deciding it was more work than I was able to take on at the time. The firewall being half black is a dead giveaway. The car was originally black, but the PO painted it Viper Red.

Odd, I thought the buyer was going to use it to rebody his wrecked Shelby. Any idea what happened?

BTW, I still have the front sway bar and motor mounts that were supposed to go with the car (I was in TX when the buyer picked it up). Do you need them? The sway bar isn't exactly cherry.

ShelGame
06-18-2011, 01:36 PM
That is my old car! I bought it from a guy in Sedalia, MO, but ended up deciding it was more work than I was able to take on at the time. The firewall being half black is a dead giveaway. The car was originally black, but the PO painted it Viper Red.

Odd, I thought the buyer was going to use it to rebody his wrecked Shelby. Any idea what happened?

BTW, I still have the front sway bar and motor mounts that were supposed to go with the car (I was in TX when the buyer picked it up). Do you need them? The sway bar isn't exactly cherry.

I have a sway bar, so I don't really need it. The motor mounts would be nice, though. The MO origin explains the decently rust-free underbody.

Jeff decided to concentrate on his '87 GLHS, I think.

supercrackerbox
06-18-2011, 04:48 PM
K, I'll round up what I can find and bring it to SDAC.

supercrackerbox
06-18-2011, 05:40 PM
Oh, for what it's worth, when I originally went to look at that car, it had no suspension on it. Everything on there came off a '92 R/T. You may want to double check that everything is tight, because it was all just thrown on there so I could roll it around.

ShelGame
06-18-2011, 06:03 PM
Oh, for what it's worth, when I originally went to look at that car, it had no suspension on it. Everything on there came off a '92 R/T. You may want to double check that everything is tight, because it was all just thrown on there so I could roll it around.

Oh, wow. Thanks for the tip. I'm nowhere close to driving it, but still I doubt I would have checked.

ShelGame
06-18-2011, 10:59 PM
Oh, for what it's worth, when I originally went to look at that car, it had no suspension on it. Everything on there came off a '92 R/T. You may want to double check that everything is tight, because it was all just thrown on there so I could roll it around.

Actually, do you know what springs are on the car? They don't look stock. And, the rear seems pretty low. Can't tell if it's due to the springs or the stuff in the car. Any other background you have on it?

supercrackerbox
06-19-2011, 12:35 AM
I don't know the springs. The guy just told me it was all stock off a '92 R/T, along with the GR2 struts and shocks.

ShelGame
06-19-2011, 08:39 AM
I don't know the springs. The guy just told me it was all stock off a '92 R/T, along with the GR2 struts and shocks.

I don't think the springs are stock. They appear to have been red originally and have some black overspray on them now. Interesting. Thanks for the info on the car... :thumb:

Force Fed Mopar
06-19-2011, 01:11 PM
Nice, have fun swapping that interior :) I swapped the black interior out of my Turbo Z into my Shelby Z, and it was crazy how much stuff was different in just one year (86 to 87), even in the same dash style. I don't want to do another ;)

ShelGame
06-19-2011, 08:18 PM
Oh, for what it's worth, when I originally went to look at that car, it had no suspension on it. Everything on there came off a '92 R/T. You may want to double check that everything is tight, because it was all just thrown on there so I could roll it around.

So... what about the R/T suspension is different or better than the parts that came on the VNT? I thought they were pretty much the same. Same brakes, and swaybars anyway, right?

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------


Nice, have fun swapping that interior :) I swapped the black interior out of my Turbo Z into my Shelby Z, and it was crazy how much stuff was different in just one year (86 to 87), even in the same dash style. I don't want to do another ;)

Yeah, I pulled all of the parts out yesterday to have a look. It's a ton of work no doubt. But, all the black interior peices he gave me with the car look to be in perfect shape except for break in one of carpeted rear panels. There's a spare, without carpet, that I'll use. I'll just pull the carpet off the broken one and attach it to the other panel. The Daytona with the carpeted rear panels will be nice...

Directconnection
06-19-2011, 08:28 PM
R/T suspension supposedly has much better geometry than the 1990 and older style, but if you're making another SS drag racer, I'd go with the older setup as the control arms are reportedly much lighter than the cast arms on the '91+ cars.

ShelGame
06-19-2011, 08:37 PM
R/T suspension supposedly has much better geometry than the 1990 and older style, but if you're making another SS drag racer, I'd go with the older setup as the control arms are reportedly much lighter than the cast arms on the '91+ cars.

No, it's going to be a daily driver. I thought the '90+ all had the cast control arms and revised geometery anyway?

Directconnection
06-19-2011, 08:53 PM
Nope... that was started in 1991. 1989 and 1990 all were the dual pivot stamped control arms except for the L-bodies, of course. And the 1988 and down cars had that stub strut style.

shackwrrr
06-19-2011, 09:11 PM
91+ has cast and good geometry, 90 is dual pivot stamped and crap geometry

ShelGame
06-19-2011, 09:57 PM
Nope... that was started in 1991. 1989 and 1990 all were the dual pivot stamped control arms except for the L-bodies, of course. And the 1988 and down cars had that stub strut style.

Cool, glad to know this car has the good stuff already...

supercrackerbox
06-20-2011, 01:47 PM
And while tearing apart my Daytona last night, I was reminded how much beefier everything is compared to the older stuff. Grabbed all the wrong sockets out of the drawer for the sway bar and pinch bolts.

BTW, one of my main motivations for selling that car was that I couldn't find any useable interior pieces anywhere. Every single Daytona that came through the local yards had door panels that were cracked to hell, broken consoles, and shredded seats. Glad you got the interior with the car.

ShelGame
06-20-2011, 01:59 PM
And while tearing apart my Daytona last night, I was reminded how much beefier everything is compared to the older stuff. Grabbed all the wrong sockets out of the drawer for the sway bar and pinch bolts.

BTW, one of my main motivations for selling that car was that I couldn't find any useable interior pieces anywhere. Every single Daytona that came through the local yards had door panels that were cracked to hell, broken consoles, and shredded seats. Glad you got the interior with the car.

So, the interior wasn't your also? Jeff must have put those pieces together. It's a good thing 'cause the interior has a kind of musty smell to it. I need to get the old gray stuff out and burn it, lol. Let the inside of the car bake in the sun for a while before I put the black in.

I need to get a vote (also) on louvers. I have a set of louvers I picked up a while back. I really had no reason to get them, except they were free (well, I guess that's a pretty good reason :) ). Should I put them on this car? Or take them to SDAC and let them go to someone with a 1st gen?

bakes
06-20-2011, 02:02 PM
Put them on the car.

Vigo
06-20-2011, 02:26 PM
I think they should end up on the best looking car, so id say either put them on yours, or only give them to someone with a 1st gen that's equally nice (body wise).

ShelGame
06-20-2011, 02:29 PM
I think they should end up on the best looking car, so id say either put them on yours, or only give them to someone with a 1st gen that's equally nice (body wise).

I'm not sure if I like the look. Though, they should keep it a little cooler inside on sunny days. But, don't they also rattle a bit? I want a nice quiet daily driver. Stealth almost...

Juggy
06-20-2011, 02:46 PM
they only rattle if u have crappy old screws.

i wanted to get some new dzus pins for my louvers, but i think they charger has a different pin....

Directconnection
06-20-2011, 11:19 PM
91+ has cast and good geometry, 90 is dual pivot stamped and crap geometry

Some people do prefer the '89-90 style for the unsprung weight savings over the better roll center. (Jay) I prefer the 91+ style, but Chris Stills used the '89-90 style that he modified to have the best of both worlds. He made a special ball joint extension, and with others, I've heard of a few instances of cross pollinating the two styles for a hybrid.... but I'd rather not chance making it worse and just going with the factory's geometry improvements.

Force Fed Mopar
06-21-2011, 12:32 AM
There's not a hell of a lot of difference in the balljoint location between the two lca's. I think rbryant measured it at a 1/4"? IIRC a lot of the added caster came from relocated strut towers on the 91-up. I'd bet that just swapping control arms won't provide any noticeable advantage or difference in steering feel.

The 1/4" inch extra will push the tire forward in the wheel well a bit, and depending on tire size it can rub. I tried to run 225/60/16's on the front of my '87 w/ the complete 91-up front suspension and they would not clear the ends of the chin spoiler.

supercrackerbox
06-21-2011, 05:04 AM
I'm not big on louvres on a Daytona, but it does do a LOT for keeping the car cooler inside. But if they'll fit the '90, they won't fit an '84-'86 car.

But yes, all that was in the car when I had it was the dash, carpet, and rear side panels.

ShelGame
06-21-2011, 07:48 AM
But yes, all that was in the car when I had it was the dash, carpet, and rear side panels.

How long ago was that? And how long did you have it? Trying to get an idea on how long the thing has been off the road.

The louvers seem to fit it OK. They're a little close at the bottom near the spoiler. I didn't try the mounting hardware at all, just set them on there. They'll at least keep the sun off the interior parts in the hatch.

supercrackerbox
06-21-2011, 01:10 PM
I bought it in March of '07 and sold it November 29th of '07. I don't know how long it had been sitting before that, but when I drove down to Sedalia to look at it, it was as you've seen it, minus any suspension. The guy was also selling a pretty clean black/silver '86 Shelby Charger. The "shop" I had it in was a dank little dugout garage that I was renting from a guy with a lawn and garden business.

ShelGame
06-21-2011, 01:21 PM
I bought it in March of '07 and sold it November 29th of '07. I don't know how long it had been sitting before that, but when I drove down to Sedalia to look at it, it was as you've seen it, minus any suspension. The guy was also selling a pretty clean black/silver '86 Shelby Charger. The "shop" I had it in was a dank little dugout garage that I was renting from a guy with a lawn and garden business.

So, it was just a bare body? No suspension at all? Wonder why it was stripped down. Seems to be a clean body to me. But, then I'm used to rusted out hulks here in Michigan. Maybe the little bit of rust on the drivers floor is "too far gone" if you're in Missouri...

supercrackerbox
06-21-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't know really. I tried looking for the for sale thread but couldn't find it. I'm pretty sure it was on Turbododge.

ShelGame
07-04-2011, 01:11 PM
OK, so this morning, I put the 1-1/4" swaybar up under the k-frame. I don't see any reason why it won't work. Of course, I don't have any swaybar bushings at all in there. But, it sure seems to fit. I may have it upside down, too. Which probably helps with the clearance to the cast arms. Now I gotta find a set of inner bushings for the cast arm k-frame that fit 1-1/4" bars...

Force Fed Mopar
07-04-2011, 08:52 PM
The ends are different, Rob. Where the old bar kinda turns back parallel w/ the center, the cast bar does not. The cast arms are also made for a round bushing instead of the old square one. You may be able to get the old one in there and bolted up, but it will never fit right.

I have a complete '93 front suspension (minus struts) in my '87, and I love it. Rides much better than the 89-older suspension, and I don't much miss the 1.25 swaybar. I have a 1" bar off an ES Shadow, and it works good.

BTW, a cast arm and stamp arm k-frame are the same. Only difference is the lca's and the swaybar.

ShelGame
07-05-2011, 12:10 AM
The ends are different, Rob. Where the old bar kinda turns back parallel w/ the center, the cast bar does not. The cast arms are also made for a round bushing instead of the old square one. You may be able to get the old one in there and bolted up, but it will never fit right.

I have a complete '93 front suspension (minus struts) in my '87, and I love it. Rides much better than the 89-older suspension, and I don't much miss the 1.25 swaybar. I have a 1" bar off an ES Shadow, and it works good.

BTW, a cast arm and stamp arm k-frame are the same. Only difference is the lca's and the swaybar.

Why couldn't I use the round bushing? This swaybar has smaller ends (1"?). I swear, it certainly looks like the swaybar ends line up perfectly with the pockets in the cast arms. Length looks about right, too. Maybe tomorrow I'll flip it over and see what it looks like.

turbovanmanČ
07-05-2011, 01:35 AM
I voted #2, I think 5 digits posted up in other discussion's and long rod engines etc and found no gains etc from it except RPM life. Rbryant makes the dizzy adapter, and its cheap.





BTW, a cast arm and stamp arm k-frame are the same. Only difference is the lca's and the swaybar.

You forgot sub strut, different K-member, :p


Why couldn't I use the round bushing? This swaybar has smaller ends (1"?). I swear, it certainly looks like the swaybar ends line up perfectly with the pockets in the cast arms. Length looks about right, too. Maybe tomorrow I'll flip it over and see what it looks like.

What control arms? Cast use the round bushing, stamped, use the square. PB sells the bushings seperately so you dont' need to buy a few sets to mix and match.

Force Fed Mopar
07-05-2011, 01:44 AM
Yeah I dunno, I'm just going by what I've been told. I never thought about using the round bushings on it. Try it and see, nothing to lose :)

BadAssPerformance
07-05-2011, 06:39 PM
Subscribed :thumb:

ShelGame
07-06-2011, 09:30 PM
OK, the dash and carpet are out (along with the acorn shells and rodent poop). Pics...

ShelGame
07-08-2011, 04:14 PM
Going to try and get the rest of the old interior out tonight and tomorrow along with fixing that little spot of rust shown above...

ShelGame
07-09-2011, 02:57 PM
Got the old gray interior all out this morning. Also found more rust to repair. What's the best way to repair the edges of the floor? Most of the Daytona rust I've seen is in the middle of the floor...

Rampage16V
07-09-2011, 05:13 PM
Wow looks like its in great shape

ShelGame
07-09-2011, 05:40 PM
Wow looks like its in great shape

Yeah, it's really not too bad at all. But, the rust it does have needs to get some attention. Left un-attended to here in Michigan, those small spots would consume the bottom of the car in a winter or two...

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

What's everyone else run for compression ration on 2.4 Turbo (non-SRT4)? I just dropped a 2.5 T1 piston and rod into my 2.4 block. It looks like it belongs in there - mostly. It's ~0.07" below deck at TDC. I'm thinking the deck needs to be cut down ~0.05". That would give me a CR of ~8.25:1 with the 420a head. Sound about right? Or should it be higher?

glhs0426
07-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Sounds about right. I would wait to cut the deck until you cc'd the cylinder head, but you know that already. I forget how thick the 420A MLS is.

ShelGame
07-09-2011, 06:44 PM
And I don't even have the head yet...

ShelGame
07-11-2011, 09:14 PM
Cross-posted here for posterity (I also have a swaybar thread going in the suspension forum)...


The vertical steel plate that the spindle bolts onto is slightly thicker on the wider trac rear axles. Depending upon the year you may run into issues with the mounting bushings and their respective hangers but that can be worked around easily enough.

Yep, looks like the rear end on the Daytona is the narrow Spirit rear end. It does have a solid bar, though. Might be smaller than the wide rear end I have. Good thing the car came with it. You were right, the plates are 0.900 on the wide rear end and 0.750" on the one on the car. Going to sandblast the wide rear end and paint it up nice before I swap them back.

Good thing I looked under there, too. The calipers aren't bolted on (supercrackerbox warned me about that).

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------


The control arm mounting points are located different on the cast arms.

I looked at that again, too. I still think it might work, but it looks like the bar is about 1/4 to 3/8" off on the arm location. I'll probably just try to find an 1-1/8" cast arm bar for the car...

ShelGame
07-12-2011, 07:51 AM
What's everyone else run for compression ration on 2.4 Turbo (non-SRT4)? I just dropped a 2.5 T1 piston and rod into my 2.4 block. It looks like it belongs in there - mostly. It's ~0.07" below deck at TDC. I'm thinking the deck needs to be cut down ~0.05". That would give me a CR of ~8.25:1 with the 420a head. Sound about right? Or should it be higher?

So, doing some checking, the Mexican Stratus R/T Turbo had a CR of 8:1 (according to AllPar); and the SRT-4 had a CR of 8.1:1. So, I think I'm in the ballpark with just 0.06" off the deck. That should put me right at 8:1. Seems like it could be a little higher, though. My 8v (stock class) race engine is at 8.4:1...

wallace
07-12-2011, 08:21 AM
So, doing some checking, the Mexican Stratus R/T Turbo had a CR of 8:1 (according to AllPar); and the SRT-4 had a CR of 8.1:1. So, I think I'm in the ballpark with just 0.06" off the deck. That should put me right at 8:1. Seems like it could be a little higher, though. My 8v (stock class) race engine is at 8.4:1...

How thick is the deck on the 2.4? Will removing that much (.06") cause problems?

ShelGame
07-12-2011, 08:41 AM
How thick is the deck on the 2.4? Will removing that much (.06") cause problems?

As far as I can see (only looked once, mostly at the water jacket struts), the deck seems to be >0.250" thick. So, I think 0.060" will be fine. It might be an issue for the ring dowels at the corner headbolts. But, they can either be counter bored deeper or I can cut just the dowels down.

So, does that make this a hybrid engine after all? It's a 2.4 PT block, 420a head, and 2.5 T1 pistons and rods.

Rampage16V
07-12-2011, 09:35 AM
So, doing some checking, the Mexican Stratus R/T Turbo had a CR of 8:1 (according to AllPar); and the SRT-4 had a CR of 8.1:1. So, I think I'm in the ballpark with just 0.06" off the deck. That should put me right at 8:1. Seems like it could be a little higher, though. My 8v (stock class) race engine is at 8.4:1...


I think JE sells a 8.8-1 piston

ShelGame
07-12-2011, 09:55 AM
I think JE sells a 8.8-1 piston

But, what's the right direction to go with the DOHC heads? Seems like the factory turbo engines were 8:1; I would have thought they'd be higher (~8.5 was what I assumed). But, I guess not.

turbovanmanČ
07-12-2011, 08:22 PM
I would shoot for 8:1. I was sorta going to do the same thing but use SRT pistons in a 2.5 block to be cheap, :p

ShelGame
07-12-2011, 09:13 PM
I would shoot for 8:1. I was sorta going to do the same thing but use SRT pistons in a 2.5 block to be cheap, :p

Oh, I'm being cheap, too. :) Hence the 2.5 T1 pistons and rods in the 2.4 block...

ShelGame
07-20-2011, 11:08 PM
Got this beauty in the mail today. Came with and EGT probe and pyrometer, too. Not sure how to hook up the pyrometer. But, I think I can use my Dataq DI194 to log the EGT output. Not a bad deal for $75...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0003.jpg

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

Also, took some pics of the 2.5 TI piston in the 2.4 block and compared to the 2.4 piston. Now that I've thought about it, 0.06" off the deck should be right. Since the 2.4 is 101mm stroke (3mm less than the 2.5 at 104mm), and the CB and 2.4 have the same deck height, it makes sense that half the difference in stroke is how deep in the hole the 2.5 TI piston is - which is 1.5mm or 0.059". I measured the piston at 0.07" in the hole as it sits now...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0006.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0005.jpg


Also got a line on a 420a head thru Craigslist. Hopefully will be picking it up this weekend...

wallace
07-21-2011, 07:50 AM
How much will .060" off of the deck affect the timing belt?

Force Fed Mopar
07-21-2011, 08:26 AM
How much will .060" off of the deck affect the timing belt?

This was my first thought too ^^

Also, IIRC when I was considering building a 2.4 w/ 2.5 pistons, I remember people saying that it came out at about 7.5-7.8:1 compression.

ShelGame
07-21-2011, 09:13 AM
How much will .060" off of the deck affect the timing belt?

Yeah, that's a concern. I can probably make up the difference with a custom tensioner setup, though. I like the manual adjustment that they have out for the SRT4's.

---------- Post added at 09:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------


This was my first thought too ^^

Also, IIRC when I was considering building a 2.4 w/ 2.5 pistons, I remember people saying that it came out at about 7.5-7.8:1 compression.

I calculated 8:1 with the deck cut down 0.06" and 2cc taken out of the chamber (which I should be able to get by shaving the head ~0.01"). Being old and used, I'm sure the head will need some taken off anyway. 0.01" shouldn't be a problem.

8:1 is what the Mexican Stratus R/T came with; and the SRT4 was supposed to be 8.1:1. So, I think I'm where I should be. I was originally thinking I would shoot for 8.5:1. But, considering the factory cars went with 8:1, I guess it will be fine. I can run more boost that way anyway :) .

wallace
07-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Yeah, that's a concern. I can probably make up the difference with a custom tensioner setup, though. I like the manual adjustment that they have out for the SRT4's.[COLOR="Silver"]

I'm guessing you would add another idler to take up the slack? If so, does it matter where that idler goes?

ShelGame
07-21-2011, 09:40 AM
I'm guessing you would add another idler to take up the slack? If so, does it matter where that idler goes?

I wouldn't add another idler, the 2.4 already has 1 idler and 1 spring tensioner. But I could put a manual tensioner (like a T3 tensioner) where the stock idler goes and use that to make sure the cam timing is correct (or, I could just get adjustable cam gears). And/or, I could swap out the stock spring tensioner for a manual tensioner, and maybe move the pivot point to take up the extra slack in the belt from shaving the head. The 2.4 already mounts the tensioner on a bracket, so making a new bracket should be no problem.

I attached a pic of the 2.4 timing belt setup with the DCR manual tensioner installed.

ShelGame
07-25-2011, 11:14 AM
Got an R/T sway bar on the way via TD.com.

Anyone know how the shifter in the Eclipse/Talon/Avenger feels? The design is different from the TD/Neon style shifter. But, I assume it will work since it's meant for the same trans (in the case of the Neon anyway). It looks much more 'mechanical' than our shifters at least. Shifter (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2G-Eclipse-Talon-5-speed-Shifter-cables-knob-420a-4g63-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZModelQ3aTalonQQhashZitem4a ad324190QQitemZ320733331856QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTru ckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

I'm thinking of picking that up and trying it. My biggest concern is that it might be too wide for the Daytona center console...

Vigo
07-25-2011, 01:34 PM
Looks like the early 520 shifter.. circa 87. I had one of those and had no problems with how it shifted. In fact, i sort of liked it more than the replacement because it doesnt have that bushing on the left hand side that gets loose. No personal experience with the 5spd 420a cars, though.

ShelGame
07-25-2011, 01:50 PM
Yeah, in looking at the Daytona center console bracket, I think that shifter will fit. Maybe with some trimming. I might pick that one up. It's a good deal with the cables at that price...

My assumption is that it will have a better feel being dual pivot instead of a ball pivot. And, no big rubber cable bushings.

Force Fed Mopar
07-25-2011, 01:55 PM
I dunno, I don't like those old shifters, I'd much rather have the Neon shifter. Dunno about the Avenger/Eclipse stuff.

ShelGame
07-26-2011, 11:22 PM
More parts on the way for this project. I totally stole this radiator+IC assy. Someone tell me that's NOT a VNT assy...

Radiator (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270785258693&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&autorefresh=true)

$56+ shipping...

Reaper1
07-26-2011, 11:55 PM
Looks to be a VNT set-up....

glhs0426
07-27-2011, 05:56 PM
I have built several Avenger/Talon/Eclipse shifters when the bushings wear out. If they have steel bushings in the shifter and good (bronze/brass) bushings in the cables these shifters feel VERY precise! What a good idea for an upgrade! There are aftermarket bushing kits for an improved shifter rebuild, one of the nicest kits is the one by Symborski (http://www.machv.com/symshifkit1.html). One thing I use on all the pivot points (including cables) is a teflon bushing installation lube by Motorcraft (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/ptfe-teflon-driveshaft-slip-yoke-lubricant-ford-motorcraft-xg-8-ml1167-31508-42027.html). I think it's the same stuff Johnny sells (http://polybushings.com/pages/bushinglube.html)through Polybushings.

Take what you will from the shifter bushing install o (http://www.plymouthlaser.com/symbor.htm)n a Plymouth Laser.

Make sure to show pictures of the install and do a KC article. I'm going to hook one to a 523 in my GTC!

cordes
07-27-2011, 07:24 PM
More parts on the way for this project. I totally stole this radiator+IC assy. Someone tell me that's NOT a VNT assy...

Radiator (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270785258693&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&autorefresh=true)

$56+ shipping...

What a steal!

ShelGame
07-27-2011, 07:53 PM
I have built several Avenger/Talon/Eclipse shifters when the bushings wear out. If they have steel bushings in the shifter and good (bronze/brass) bushings in the cables these shifters feel VERY precise! What a good idea for an upgrade! There are aftermarket bushing kits for an improved shifter rebuild, one of the nicest kits is the one by Symborski (http://www.machv.com/symshifkit1.html). One thing I use on all the pivot points (including cables) is a teflon bushing installation lube by Motorcraft (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/ptfe-teflon-driveshaft-slip-yoke-lubricant-ford-motorcraft-xg-8-ml1167-31508-42027.html). I think it's the same stuff Johnny sells (http://polybushings.com/pages/bushinglube.html)through Polybushings.

Take what you will from the shifter bushing install o (http://www.plymouthlaser.com/symbor.htm)n a Plymouth Laser.

Make sure to show pictures of the install and do a KC article. I'm going to hook one to a 523 in my GTC!

Cool, thanks for the links. That's the kind of info I was looking for. I'll be sure to document the install if I go that way...

Aries_Turbo
07-27-2011, 07:53 PM
some comments.... peel back the seam sealer more on the rust till it isnt rusty at all. you may find more unfortunately. then grind and clean (brake cleaner or a rust converter like por15's metal ready) and weld or rivet metal in. ive done the rivet method and coated it all with rust bullet before riveting it in so everything is coated on all surfaces.

my buddy has a 420a turbo (t2 turbo :)) eclipse. shifter is nice and short throw. i like it.

Brian

wallace
07-28-2011, 06:31 AM
We can use the eclipse/talon shifter in our cars?

Force Fed Mopar
07-28-2011, 08:55 AM
We can use the eclipse/talon shifter in our cars?

Only w/ the 523/543/568. I dunno if the shift cable ends are the same.

ShelGame
07-28-2011, 09:31 AM
Only w/ the 523/543/568. I dunno if the shift cable ends are the same.

Well, since the Eclipse/Talon/Avenger uses the same T350 trans as the Neon, I would imagine the DSM shifter will work in a Neon or anything else using the same trans (or at least the same cable ends on the trans). I'm going to use the T350 trans, so it should work fine.

Honestly, when I went looking for the Eclipse/Talon shifter I expected it to be the same as the Neon.

Does the 568/523/543 use the same cable ends at the trans as the T350?

Vigo
07-28-2011, 03:57 PM
I would say yes since the same shift cable bushings fit both neons and k-cars:
http://www.boogerracing.com/boogerbushings.html

wallace
07-29-2011, 06:36 AM
I would say yes since the same shift cable bushings fit both neons and k-cars:
http://www.boogerracing.com/boogerbushings.html

Yep they are the same. I went to the JY on Wednesday and got Neon cables to see if they would fit better in my lbody. The neon cables are about 6" shorter than the pbody ones I have.

Force Fed Mopar
07-29-2011, 07:40 AM
Yep they are the same. I went to the JY on Wednesday and got Neon cables to see if they would fit better in my lbody. The neon cables are about 6" shorter than the pbody ones I have.

What year Neon?

cordes
07-29-2011, 05:46 PM
What year Neon?

Should be all first gens IIRC.

Force Fed Mopar
07-29-2011, 10:49 PM
I was asking what year he got the cables out of. Wondering if 1st gen and second gen are different lengths.

wallace
08-01-2011, 09:22 AM
Sorry, no idea on what year I pulled it out of. I'm probably going to go back and get a Nippondenso alternator I'll try to remember to check when I'm there what year it was I pulled the cables off of. Did the wheelbase or something change between the years? If they're running the same shifter and transaxle I don't see why they would change them.

ShelGame
08-04-2011, 10:27 PM
Picked up a 420a head tonight - complete with cams, valves, followers, etc. Even has the t-stat housing on it and a valve cover. I plopped it on the block just to mock it up. Put the intake and exhaust mani's on there, too. I'll post some pics later. But, the FFV (T1 style) fuel rail and injectors look like they will fit on the 420a intake with just an adapter plate to hold it in. FPR even fits under the plenum. Getting at the schrader to test fuel pressure is going to be a PITA, though.

bakes
08-04-2011, 10:37 PM
Rob check to see if you have the updated Pt liffters in the head , if not add them to your list of parts needed

my A420 head did not have them.

ShelGame
08-04-2011, 10:44 PM
Rob check to see if you have the updated Pt liffters in the head , if not add them to your list of parts needed

my A420 head did not have them.

It didn't. But, I already bought a set for it :) Even before I bought the head....

---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

Engine pics... Obviously, mock up stage here...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0028.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0027.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0025.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0024.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0023.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/24238014/IMAG0026.jpg

Mopar318
08-04-2011, 10:57 PM
You put your cylinder head on backwards.

turbovanmanČ
08-05-2011, 02:56 AM
Looking good Rob, :nod:


Looks to be a VNT set-up....

Agreed, plastic rad tanks equals VNT or TIII.


You put your cylinder head on backwards.

Hope your kidding, :p

420a head IS backwards, that's the reason for using it.

Force Fed Mopar
08-05-2011, 10:37 AM
The T1 rail will work w/ an adapter plate. I have one bolted up to a 420A intake right now, injectors, harness and all. I just used a piece of 3/4" wide flat stock for the plate. I'll take a pic and post it.

ShelGame
08-05-2011, 11:12 AM
The T1 rail will work w/ an adapter plate. I have one bolted up to a 420A intake right now, injectors, harness and all. I just used a piece of 3/4" wide flat stock for the plate. I'll take a pic and post it.

Cool, thanks. That's exactly what I was thinking it would take - a piece of flat stock with 4 holes drilled in it.

Do you know if the Accufab regulator will fit under the 420a plenum? If not, I can always make the FFV adjustable using the parts from an old ForwardMotion AFPR I have

Force Fed Mopar
08-05-2011, 11:23 AM
Not sure but I think it will fit. Here is the pic of the stock stuff installed.

Edit: on second look, maybe it won't. The stock regulator is right against the intake.

ShelGame
08-05-2011, 04:18 PM
Any need for (or advantage to) upgrading the head to SRT4 valves? Are they the same size as the older heads? Better material?

Mopar318
08-05-2011, 04:26 PM
Any need for (or advantage to) upgrading the head to SRT4 valves? Are they the same size as the older heads?

SRT has the inconel exhaust valves. Regular 2.4's do not. I would run the SRT valves just in case. If the engineers did not think they were needed, then money would have been saved to just use regular valves. I'm sure you know that though!

turbovanmanČ
08-05-2011, 04:42 PM
Any need for (or advantage to) upgrading the head to SRT4 valves? Are they the same size as the older heads? Better material?

What year is this head? I thought the SRT had different sized valves vs the older head?

Lots have run the n/a valves with zero issues, I guess they finally made some decent valves, :nod:

glhs0426
08-05-2011, 10:59 PM
Any need for (or advantage to) upgrading the head to SRT4 valves? Are they the same size as the older heads? Better material?

You can't. The SRT4 and all later ('01 up) cylinder heads used a smaller exhaust valve. There are aftermarket valves (PEP-WBK101) that would be 1mm in your cylinder head. I bought a set for my 2.4. The machinist said they look like a quality piece.

The intake valves are all the same from 1995-201X. The intake valve changed p/n a couple times, but they all supercede to the latest number.

ShelGame
08-05-2011, 11:08 PM
You can't. The SRT4 and all later ('01 up) cylinder heads used a smaller exhaust valve. There are aftermarket valves (PEP-WBK101) that would be 1mm in your cylinder head. I bought a set for my 2.4. The machinist said they look like a quality piece.

The intake valves are all the same from 1995-201X. The intake valve changed p/n a couple times, but they all supercede to the latest number.

I don't want to bother with (ie, spend money on) opening up the head for bigger valves. If there was a straight swap to Inconel or other high-temp material valve, I'd do it.

I'll leave them as is...

Mopar318
08-06-2011, 08:23 AM
I don't want to bother with (ie, spend money on) opening up the head for bigger valves. If there was a straight swap to Inconel or other high-temp material valve, I'd do it.

I'll leave them as is...

There are valves available for the pre 02 heads, but not stock obviously. I wonder what the Mexican Turbo cars had?

http://www.modernperformance.com/indy-stainless-steel-valve-sets-9505-neon-p-1443.html

Aries_Turbo
08-06-2011, 09:42 AM
dont bother, i know lots of folks running neon/420a turbo setups on the stock valves with no issues.

my friend brian has a 420a turbo eclipse running the stock valves right now.

Brian

Force Fed Mopar
08-07-2011, 07:52 AM
I concur ^^ :)

ShelGame
08-08-2011, 10:54 PM
Got the radiator and intercooler previously mentioned in the mail today. Dropped it in the car - Perfect fit :thumb:

I'd post pics, but it was dark and starting to rain... :(

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------


dont bother, i know lots of folks running neon/420a turbo setups on the stock valves with no issues.

my friend brian has a 420a turbo eclipse running the stock valves right now.

Brian

Yeah, I figured they'd be fine. But, I thought, hey if SRT4 exhaust valves are better, why not? I'm not changing valve sizes to do it, though.

Mopar318
08-09-2011, 06:02 PM
You should add oil squirters. Makes the bottom end happy during not so ideal condition.

ShelGame
08-09-2011, 07:30 PM
You should add oil squirters. Makes the bottom end happy during not so ideal condition.

I'm going to run T2 rods. Which have oil squirters in them. Seems redundant to have both, no?

Mopar318
08-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Oh. Thought you were running a 2.4 bottom end. Maybe I should read the whole thread.

Did not know TII rods did this. 2.4 turbo squirters spray the bottoms of the pistons to keep them cool. TII do the same?

ShelGame
08-09-2011, 10:32 PM
Oh. Thought you were running a 2.4 bottom end. Maybe I should read the whole thread.

I am. But, I'm using T2 rods and 2.5 T1 0.02" over Mahles - 'cause I have them and they are extremely similar to the Mexican Stratus R/T pistons/rods. I think I posted a link earlier. But, here it is again - http://www.gtneon.com/turbo%202.4L/assembly01.html

Mexican Stratus R/T Pistons/Rods -
http://www.gtneon.com/turbo%202.4L/engine/assembly/pistoncomp04.jpg

Stratus R/T Rod next to T2 rod -
http://www.gtneon.com/turbo%202.4L/engine/assembly/partnumber.jpg

They even appear to have the same type of oil squirters the T2 rods do -
http://www.gtneon.com/turbo%202.4L/engine/assembly/siderods1.jpg



So, basically, I'm building a different kind of hybrid - 0.02" over 2.5 T1 pistons+T2 rods, 2.4 crank+block, 420a head...

Force Fed Mopar
08-10-2011, 07:30 AM
T2 rods spray the walls I think, not the piston.

wallace
08-10-2011, 08:00 AM
T2 rods spray the walls I think, not the piston.

That's my understanding as well it lubes the thrust side of the bore.

ShelGame
08-10-2011, 03:06 PM
OK, lets talk turbos. Keep in mind that I'm cheap. I'm not going to be spending $600 on a new turbo. And, I'm only going for 300hp tops and I want -NO LAG-. I'm going to be driving this everyday, not racing it. OK, well I might race it a little.

I'm thinking a Mitsu TD04 16t or maybe 15g. I could get a TD04 from a Volvo (used) and rebuild the cartridge. And buy a new 16t comp housing and wheel. I'd probably be into the turbo for about $250 that way. That looks like it would only just support 300hp. But, that means it should spool quickly.

I do actually prefer the Mitsu turbos. I have a ton of them, 'cause that's what I run on my race car (TE04h, stock T1 turbo). I'm familiar with the family and the parts and rebuild procedures. Not that the Garrett's are that much different, but they are different.

Mopar318
08-10-2011, 08:45 PM
OK, lets talk turbos. Keep in mind that I'm cheap. I'm not going to be spending $600 on a new turbo. And, I'm only going for 300hp tops and I want -NO LAG-. I'm going to be driving this everyday, not racing it. OK, well I might race it a little.

I'm thinking a Mitsu TD04 16t or maybe 15g. I could get a TD04 from a Volvo (used) and rebuild the cartridge. And buy a new 16t comp housing and wheel. I'd probably be into the turbo for about $250 that way. That looks like it would only just support 300hp. But, that means it should spool quickly.

I do actually prefer the Mitsu turbos. I have a ton of them, 'cause that's what I run on my race car (TE04h, stock T1 turbo). I'm familiar with the family and the parts and rebuild procedures. Not that the Garrett's are that much different, but they are different.

My volvo has the TDO4 13G? I believe. Spools super quick but computer control and displacement kill the power band. Somehow, those turbos on volvos will last 400,000 miles with no rebuilds. They only run 7psi on the 2.4's. 2.3's get the high pressure turbo.

ShelGame
08-11-2011, 11:51 AM
My volvo has the TDO4 13G? I believe. Spools super quick but computer control and displacement kill the power band. Somehow, those turbos on volvos will last 400,000 miles with no rebuilds. They only run 7psi on the 2.4's. 2.3's get the high pressure turbo.

13g is a smaller compressor. But, I think the turbine is the same on all of the TD04's. You can buy the 16t compressor wheel and housing's separately, anyway.

I'm buying the TD04 turbine housing from gerbot from the Mexican Status R/T. So, when that gets here I'll start looking for a TD04 turbo to mate it up to. I guess I could start fabbing up a downpipe, too.

turbovanmanČ
08-11-2011, 01:30 PM
If you run both squirters, you could overload the oil ring. I would try to run the proper oil squirters but barring that, just run the stock rods with their holes.

ShelGame
08-11-2011, 01:35 PM
If you run both squirters, you could overload the oil ring. I would try to run the proper oil squirters but barring that, just run the stock rods with their holes.

I'm not going to bother trying to add the SRT squirters in there. My thinking is - I'm running the 2.5 T1 pistons and rods as a set. 300hp 8v engines with basically these same parts don't have a problem without oil squirters in the block. So, why would I?

I agree - both would be too much. If not for the oil ring, then certainly too much oil windage in the crankcase.

turbovanmanČ
08-11-2011, 01:36 PM
I'm not going to bother trying to add the SRT squirters in there. My thinking is - I'm running the 2.5 T1 pistons and rods as a set. 300hp 8v engines with basically these same parts don't have a problem without oil squirters in the block. So, why would I?

I agree - both would be too much. If not for the oil ring, then certainly too much oil windage in the crankcase.

Exactly, :nod:

Force Fed Mopar
08-12-2011, 08:53 AM
I've put a TD05 compressor onto a TD04 cartridge, worked good. I'd probably look for a 14g to feed a 2.4 though.

I was going to suggest a Mercedes diesel turbo. T3 flange and have a built in wastegate and BOV. They are KKK turbos usually, but they are a Garrett design from the looks of them.

Vigo
08-12-2011, 11:20 PM
I like the idea of using the mitsu turbos. a 14g compressor wheel isnt much smaller than a 16g, so if there's a major price difference there i wouldnt pay more for the 14g.. id think the lag difference from just the compressor wheel difference would be minimal.

ShelGame
08-15-2011, 10:53 AM
I like the idea of using the mitsu turbos. a 14g compressor wheel isnt much smaller than a 16g, so if there's a major price difference there i wouldnt pay more for the 14g.. id think the lag difference from just the compressor wheel difference would be minimal.

Yeah, I was just looking at the compressor maps and thought that the 14g might choke off before it gets to 300hp. But, it wouldn't be a bad place to start. I can always upgrade to the 16g later. With the turbo up-front, it will be easy to pull :)

ShelGame
08-16-2011, 08:10 AM
I was just adding up in my head how much I've spent on this thing so far and thought I'd make a post about it...

Car ---------------------- $600
3rd Gen Tail lamps ------- ($50) - they came with the car, but I sold these
2.4 Shortblock ----------- $200 - came with: a new oil pump, and timing belt; PT mount bracket
420a Head --------------- $100 - came with cams, followers, rocker cover, t-stat housing
420a Intake -------------- $50
Godspeed Exhaust Mani --- $75
PT Cruiser Lifters --------- $40
'95 Neon Flywheel -------- $50
VNT Daytona Rad/IC ----- $105
Spirit R/T Front Swaybar -- $60
FFV Injectors/rail --------- $Freebie - I've had these for a few years and never used them
3-bar MAP ---------------- $Freebie - Generously donated by BoostButton.com :)

So, the grand total is now up to $1230. And it's not even close to running. It looks like about $500 in the engine itself (so far)

I still need to source:

Neon T350 trans ---- $150 budgeted
Clutch parts -------- $100 budgeted (for Audi parts)
Axles --------------- $50 budgeted
Turbo --------------- $250 budgeted
Exhaust system ----- $?? No clue what I'm going to do here yet, need to get the turbo on to mock up a downpipe...
Engine rebuild parts - $250 - rings, gaskets, etc.
Odds and ends ------ $500 - stuff like turbo plumbing, engine bay plumbing

And then there's the work I have to farm out:

Short block rebuild at the machine shop -- $400 to bore 0.02" over, deck the block 0.06" and hot tank
Cylinder head rebuild -- $300 ? I've never done a 16v rebuild before so I don't know what it would cost, or where to send it. My engine builder is a V8 guy, he does 16 valves, but they're usually in 2 different heads :)

So, that's another $2k I'm planning to spend. Ouch. I think it'll be worth it, though.

Aries_Turbo
08-16-2011, 09:21 AM
get a 41te rather than the t350 for tcu hacking motivation. :)

hehe

Brian

135sohc
08-16-2011, 09:28 AM
The notion these cars are dirt cheap to build is such a false one.

ShelGame
08-16-2011, 09:42 AM
get a 41te rather than the t350 for tcu hacking motivation. :)

hehe

Brian

It's possible. It depends on how much TCM hacking I get done this fall/winter, and how much progress I make (or don't make) on the car. I can see me abandoning the T350 for a 41te if I think I can make it work...

contraption22
08-16-2011, 09:48 AM
If you want cheap, find a good used 60-trim T3 off a Ford 2.3. Should be good for 300hp and will likely spool instantly.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but did you work out what your compression will be with the 16v head and 2.5 pistons? From memory I think it was pretty low.

ShelGame
08-16-2011, 10:08 AM
If you want cheap, find a good used 60-trim T3 off a Ford 2.3. Should be good for 300hp and will likely spool instantly.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but did you work out what your compression will be with the 16v head and 2.5 pistons? From memory I think it was pretty low.

8:1 if I cut the deck 0.06". If I didn't cut the deck, it would be like 6:1, lol.

Vigo
08-16-2011, 12:15 PM
If you want cheap, find a good used 60-trim T3 off a Ford 2.3. Should be good for 300hp and will likely spool instantly.

Some of them had .63 housings too, but not all. Either way, its a good jyard turbo.

ShelGame
08-16-2011, 01:45 PM
Some of them had .63 housings too, but not all. Either way, its a good jyard turbo.

It's on my list; and I've looked for them. Do they come with a standard T3 flange? How would you put a T3 flange on one - since that's what my manifold is...

Force Fed Mopar
08-16-2011, 02:19 PM
Yes they are standard T3 flange. they have a slightly different swing valve pattern than a Chrysler, not that it matters much probably. There are Ford sv flanges all over ebay.

contraption22
08-16-2011, 02:28 PM
TU's latest 3" swingvalve should bolt up to the Ford turbo for use with a factory type downpipe. There are other options too if you don't mind fabbing your own downpipe.

ShelGame
08-16-2011, 03:18 PM
TU's latest 3" swingvalve should bolt up to the Ford turbo for use with a factory type downpipe. There are other options too if you don't mind fabbing your own downpipe.

It's a front mount turbo, so I'll have to fab a downpipe...

16valvecharger
08-16-2011, 07:02 PM
I was just adding up in my head how much I've spent on this thing so far and thought I'd make a post about it...

Car ---------------------- $600
3rd Gen Tail lamps ------- ($50) - they came with the car, but I sold these
2.4 Shortblock ----------- $200 - came with: a new oil pump, and timing belt; PT mount bracket
420a Head --------------- $100 - came with cams, followers, rocker cover, t-stat housing
420a Intake -------------- $50
Godspeed Exhaust Mani --- $75
PT Cruiser Lifters --------- $40
'95 Neon Flywheel -------- $50
VNT Daytona Rad/IC ----- $105
Spirit R/T Front Swaybar -- $60
FFV Injectors/rail --------- $Freebie - I've had these for a few years and never used them
3-bar MAP ---------------- $Freebie - Generously donated by BoostButton.com :)

So, the grand total is now up to $1230. And it's not even close to running. It looks like about $500 in the engine itself (so far)

I still need to source:

Neon T350 trans ---- $150 budgeted
Clutch parts -------- $100 budgeted (for Audi parts)
Axles --------------- $50 budgeted
Turbo --------------- $250 budgeted
Exhaust system ----- $?? No clue what I'm going to do here yet, need to get the turbo on to mock up a downpipe...
Engine rebuild parts - $250 - rings, gaskets, etc.
Odds and ends ------ $500 - stuff like turbo plumbing, engine bay plumbing

And then there's the work I have to farm out:

Short block rebuild at the machine shop -- $400 to bore 0.02" over, deck the block 0.06" and hot tank
Cylinder head rebuild -- $300 ? I've never done a 16v rebuild before so I don't know what it would cost, or where to send it. My engine builder is a V8 guy, he does 16 valves, but they're usually in 2 different heads :)

So, that's another $2k I'm planning to spend. Ouch. I think it'll be worth it, though.



I dont even want to attempt to do a price breakdown cause I would probably barf....

cordes
08-21-2011, 12:21 AM
The notion these cars are dirt cheap to build is such a false one.

Cheap is relative. There are a lot of guys with "cheap" 10K motors...

Force Fed Mopar
08-21-2011, 08:00 AM
Compared to building a 400-hp Honda, they are cheap ;)

ShelGame
08-26-2011, 01:41 PM
Ok, so I'm mostly now convinced I should use an A604 and figure out the wiring and programming for the trans controllers. I have a couple of trans controllers now, just need to start looking for a '91 3.0/A604 Daytona engine bay harness to steal wires from. And, start looking for the 1-year only '95 Avenger A604 trans...

moparman76_69
08-26-2011, 01:51 PM
I was just adding up in my head how much I've spent on this thing so far and thought I'd make a post about it...

Car ---------------------- $600
3rd Gen Tail lamps ------- ($50) - they came with the car, but I sold these
2.4 Shortblock ----------- $200 - came with: a new oil pump, and timing belt; PT mount bracket
420a Head --------------- $100 - came with cams, followers, rocker cover, t-stat housing
420a Intake -------------- $50
Godspeed Exhaust Mani --- $75
PT Cruiser Lifters --------- $40
'95 Neon Flywheel -------- $50
VNT Daytona Rad/IC ----- $105
Spirit R/T Front Swaybar -- $60
FFV Injectors/rail --------- $Freebie - I've had these for a few years and never used them
3-bar MAP ---------------- $Freebie - Generously donated by BoostButton.com :)

So, the grand total is now up to $1230. And it's not even close to running. It looks like about $500 in the engine itself (so far)

I still need to source:

Neon T350 trans ---- $150 budgeted
Clutch parts -------- $100 budgeted (for Audi parts)
Axles --------------- $50 budgeted
Turbo --------------- $250 budgeted
Exhaust system ----- $?? No clue what I'm going to do here yet, need to get the turbo on to mock up a downpipe...
Engine rebuild parts - $250 - rings, gaskets, etc.
Odds and ends ------ $500 - stuff like turbo plumbing, engine bay plumbing

And then there's the work I have to farm out:

Short block rebuild at the machine shop -- $400 to bore 0.02" over, deck the block 0.06" and hot tank
Cylinder head rebuild -- $300 ? I've never done a 16v rebuild before so I don't know what it would cost, or where to send it. My engine builder is a V8 guy, he does 16 valves, but they're usually in 2 different heads :)

So, that's another $2k I'm planning to spend. Ouch. I think it'll be worth it, though.

Where the heck did you score a header for 75 bucks?

ShelGame
08-26-2011, 02:01 PM
Where the heck did you score a header for 75 bucks?

It's not a header, it's a cast iron stock type log manifold. But, I got it on eBay (used). Came with a EGT, too.

Check it out here (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?60025-1990-VNT-Daytona-2.4-Project&p=831503&viewfull=1#post831503)...

Aries_Turbo
08-26-2011, 02:05 PM
2g non turbo eclipse used a 604 as well.

why do you have to use that specific of a trans? dont cloud cars run the 604 as well?

brian

turboshad
08-26-2011, 02:07 PM
I dont even want to attempt to do a price breakdown cause I would probably barf....

LOL, no kidding. But I think I'm still under 20K.:bolt:

moparman76_69
08-26-2011, 02:08 PM
It's not a header, it's a cast iron stock type log manifold. But, I got it on eBay (used). Came with a EGT, too.

Check it out here (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?60025-1990-VNT-Daytona-2.4-Project&p=831503&viewfull=1#post831503)...

Eh missed that post apparently.


2g non turbo eclipse used a 604 as well.

why do you have to use that specific of a trans? dont cloud cars run the 604 as well?

brian

FWIW I agree that you should be able to use any 2.0/2.4 A604 unless it you are looking for something special electronic wise.

ShelGame
08-26-2011, 02:39 PM
2g non turbo eclipse used a 604 as well.

why do you have to use that specific of a trans? dont cloud cars run the 604 as well?

brian

According to the robskorner (http://www.robskorner.info/faqs/faqs.htm) pages on the A604, the external PRNDL was only used on the 2.0/2.4 bellhousing A604 in '95. In '96, Chrysler removed the provisions for the external PRNDL and put it inside the valve body. Which I think means that using a '96+ trans with the early Daytona wiring would be very difficult. Of course, I don't know for sure that a '95 2.0/2.4 will have the PRNDL mounting. I need to do some research to make sure before I buy it.

Actually, if his info is correct, it looks like I need a '95 case, with a '94 VB and a '94 PRNDL sensor. I think I should be able to use the early wiring and computer that way....

moparman76_69
08-26-2011, 02:43 PM
According to the robskorner (http://www.robskorner.info/faqs/faqs.htm) pages on the A604, the external PRNDL was only used on the 2.0/2.4 bellhousing A604 in '95. In '96, Chrysler removed the provisions for the external PRNDL and put it inside the valve body. Which I think means that using a '96+ trans with the early Daytona wiring would be very difficult. Of course, I don't know for sure that a '95 2.0/2.4 will have the PRNDL mounting. I need to do some research to make sure before I buy it.

So did the neon and cloud cars use the three speed in 95?

ShelGame
08-26-2011, 02:45 PM
So did the neon and cloud cars use the three speed in 95?

The Neon used the A413/31th until 2000. The cloud cars and the Avenger/Talon/Eclipse used the A604 from '95. But, the case in '95 still had the external PRNDL mounts on it; even though the electronics used a VB mounted PRNDL sensor.

ShelGame
08-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Here's a pic of the 'early' PRNDL sensor mounting. It's at the lower outside corner near the NSS.
http://dodgedynasty.50megs.com/a604/a604.jpg

And here's a late trans. As you can see, the sensor hole is gone. The plug facing upward is the 'new' PRNDL sensor. I don't think it's compatible with the older electronics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GENUINE-MOPAR-TRANSMISSION-2001-2002-MINI-VAN-A604-41TE-/190533157680?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5ca94330

glhs0426
08-26-2011, 06:18 PM
Ok, so I'm mostly now convinced I should use an A604 and figure out the wiring and programming for the trans controllers. I have a couple of trans controllers now, just need to start looking for a '91 3.0/A604 Daytona engine bay harness to steal wires from. And, start looking for the 1-year only '95 Avenger A604 trans...

I'm going to the yards next week. If I find a harness, I'll pick it up for your project. The 91 604 harness is a neat add on harness. Do you need anymore trans controllers?

ShelGame
08-26-2011, 07:39 PM
I think I'm OK for trans controllers. So the '91 harness is an add-on?

glhs0426
08-26-2011, 08:28 PM
I think I'm OK for trans controllers. So the '91 harness is an add-on?

From what I remember when I converted my GTC from 3.0/604 to 2.5TI/31TH the trans harness came out seperate and very complete. There was one plug where the trans harness attached to the main harness. The rest was just an overlay for the trans with the computer and trans relays part of the overlay. IIRC the plug to the main harness had powers/grounds/communications/tps/crank signal. It looked like the perfect adapter harness.

Reaper1
08-27-2011, 12:07 AM
That sounds right. The early 604 controls and such were all "overlay" affairs.

Vigo
08-27-2011, 03:50 AM
Im not 100% sure on this but i was under the vague impression from all the times ive looked at these cases that you could probably drill a later case for the older sensors.

Glad to hear you're thinking 604 for this car. :)

ShelGame
08-27-2011, 08:33 AM
Im not 100% sure on this but i was under the vague impression from all the times ive looked at these cases that you could probably drill a later case for the older sensors.

Glad to hear you're thinking 604 for this car. :)

You guys got me all worked up about it posting the early binary. Now I want to hack the code and understand how it all works. I needed something challenging on this project anyway. Other than finding the time to build the car...

Vigo
08-27-2011, 11:29 PM
Yeah, Strax and I dont have 604 project cars per se (i have a 604 car didnt consider hacking the tcm part of the 'project') but we knew that because we had TCMs and desoldering gun and chip reader, and he has the electronics know-how, that we were in a unique position to get the ball rolling. You're the one who deserves all the credit for the actual work that will be done!

ShelGame
08-28-2011, 09:48 PM
OK, so I tried to bootstrap a TCM tonight (actually, I tried to BS them both) but it didn't work. Well, it bootstrapped, but I could not read the code off the chip. It would not let me download the bootloader to the processor. Either I'm just doing somethign wrong, or there's a security code in there to prevent such a download. The Ultradrive was quite revolutionary in it's time, and Chrysler put out a ton of patents on it. They obviously wanted to protect it pretty heavily. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a security system to prevent an external bootloader from sucking the code out.

If that's the case, it's going to be really difficult to flash one of these. We might have to really hack into it to be able to do that with it.

Ondonti
08-28-2011, 10:24 PM
I would go 16t over 16g. The t series mitsu compressors are better but I think it involves custom stuff. Don't really know. 14g might get you 250hp or a little more. The newer evo series 16g's will make 350FWHP if pushed.

BTW if you really want zero lag, look into the Titanium Aluminide 16g turbo from one of the more recent evos. It is worth the money if you want zero lag. Nothing compares.
Dynamic Racing is building upgraded billet compressor wheel versions to use in TT setups for 6g72's. They are making over 600 at the wheels (without maxing anything out) with the same lag as the stock 300whp combined 9b turbos. :nod:

If you want to spend, then the EFR 6255 or 6258 would do you. Aftermarket Titanium wheel turbos. Spendy but the best (and only) on the market. The problem with these turbos is that in the larger sizes they use the special wheel to increase HP and keep lag the same instead of keeping HP the same and spooling sooner. They don't give you a choice.

6255 10lb boost at 3300 rpms on a 1.8L honda which has poor low end so it will have less exhaust energy to spool down there. 16g will be laggier unless you have the Ti-AL one.

moparman76_69
08-28-2011, 10:53 PM
33550

Is this the switch you're looking for? If so this was in a 1998 2.4 caravan.

Vigo
08-29-2011, 03:13 AM
That is the neutral safety switch on a 31th. It is the same switch used on the early 604s, and jillion other dodges for 2 or 3 decades, really. They're like $11 from the parts stores.

Rob, i guess i should not be surprised about the possibility of a security scheme. As you say, the thing was majorly revolutionary. I dont think people who dont know much about transmissions can really grasp how far ahead this thing was in 1989.

Best of luck with your hax0ring.

ShelGame
08-29-2011, 07:38 AM
That is the neutral safety switch on a 31th. It is the same switch used on the early 604s, and jillion other dodges for 2 or 3 decades, really. They're like $11 from the parts stores.

Rob, i guess i should not be surprised about the possibility of a security scheme. As you say, the thing was majorly revolutionary. I dont think people who dont know much about transmissions can really grasp how far ahead this thing was in 1989.

Best of luck with your hax0ring.

Unless it's a proprientray processor design based on the 6811 (I guess that's very possible), I don't see how it could be completely locked up. There's got to be a way to get into it. At the worst, I can port snoop a DRBII with an EATX flash cart to get the security code. Once we get inside and get the code out, I'm sure we can turn off the security somehow...

Vigo
08-29-2011, 02:36 PM
Im not sure how this plays into it yet but afaik that flash kit for use with the DRB2 was still sitting on ebay for $30 last time i checked.

ShelGame
08-29-2011, 02:44 PM
Im not sure how this plays into it yet but afaik that flash kit for use with the DRB2 was still sitting on ebay for $30 last time i checked.

I already have one :)

The problem with that kit is, you need a TCM update cart in order to really do anything with it.

ShelGame
08-29-2011, 03:01 PM
Actually, now that I look at the 68HC11 docs, the built-in security feature would not prevent a bootloader from being downloaded to memory. I must be doing something wrong. I'll try again tonight...

Vigo
08-29-2011, 04:43 PM
The problem with that kit is, you need a TCM update cart in order to really do anything with it.

That sounds tricky to get ahold of. :(

ShelGame
08-29-2011, 05:37 PM
That sounds tricky to get ahold of. :(

I haven't seen one yet...

ShelGame
09-05-2011, 08:45 PM
OK, so I'm prety much convinced on the A604 now. So, what converter should I use? PT Turbo? I don't really want to get a custom one built right away. Maybe someday. I was looking on eBay, but couldn't find any PT converters. I guess I'll have to go yarding.

Also, I want to fix the rust myself. What's a good MIG for thin guage sheet metal and exhaust systems? I don't have a ton of money to spend, but I want to be able to do my own body work with it as well as welding up the roll cage for the 'other' (race) Daytona this winter. My brother-in-law has the MIG from Harbor Frieght. He only uses it with the flux core wire, but it's capable of welding with argon. I think it was less than $200. Of course, the bottle and reg will cost some more. It uses 220V - which I don't currently have in my house. How tough is it to setup a 220 circuit?

Vigo
09-05-2011, 10:44 PM
IMO just get a regular neon auto converter. They stall close to 3000 rpm (maybe over 3000 with brake boosting), have lockup, fit 604s, and are cheap.

For the record either 3 or 4spd neon converter will work.. the 31th lockup converters and the SMALLER of the 604 converters (only v6s got the bigger one) are interchangeable. :)

How tough it is to set up a 220 circuit probably depends on whether you care what is legal or not. Some jurisdictions are stupid about permitting and only letting licensed people touch things, etc.

If you dont care, its just running wires. Depending on how far where you're going with it is from where it's coming from, that could be a big job.

Aries_Turbo
09-05-2011, 11:12 PM
i have a HF mig running flux core. i did some mods to mine, added a capacitor, changed the fan, isolated the wire feed drive a little, changed the liner from plastic to metal. took an afternoon. its a whole new machine. cost me around 80$ for the mods.

ive done floor pan work with it but you have to go slow to not burn, especially with the flux core and the mods as it raises the power a bit. using it as mig with gas will works better and is cleaner. get a "copper spoon" from HF too as you can support the back of the thin stuff to prevent burning through as well.

it didnt help that i was welding 1/8" steel to the floor. you gotta be careful welding thick stuff to thin stuff.

Brian

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------

i think brent or adam said to use some jumper cables to create some voltage drop to knock down the power when doing thin stuff too :)

220v is cake to wire up. 20a 2 pole breaker, 12/3 romex (2 12ga hot leads, 1 12ga neutral and 1 12 gnd all in a sheath), and whatever plug you decide to use for the welder. i used dryer plugs.

if its a long distance, use 10ga and a 30a breaker.

bakes
09-06-2011, 01:01 AM
look in the bone yard for a 1995 ja , fj , f24s with a 2.0l trans production #4567 500 I has a 3.90:1 gears (compaired to 2.36-2.49 :1 ) and has a9.5" converter the stall on boost should be about 3200-3500

black86glhs
09-06-2011, 01:02 AM
Mine was running off an old dryer circuit(40 amp)....and I did the same, used dryer plugs where it plugs into the wall.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

Vigo
09-06-2011, 01:27 AM
i think brent or adam said to use some jumper cables to create some voltage drop to knock down the power when doing thin stuff too

That was me, maybe brent did it too. I just used jumper cables to add resistance to the ground circuit since my HF welder (like yours) just has a HI/LO current switch. You could use either one or both runs of the jumpers. IIRC when i tried to run it through both cables it dropped enough voltage that it wouldnt even arc, and those were good cables.

One of the mods that Strax22 did to my HF welder was adding a contactor to it so it is only hot when the trigger is pulled, because as delivered it's hot anytime the power switch is on. That helped a lot.


has a 3.90:1 gears (compaired to 2.36-2.49 :1 )

You're comparing diff ratio to final drive ratio. 3.90 is a diff ratio. 2.36-2.49 are final drive ratio (diff ratio x 4th gear ratio). Although when i say diff ratio it's actually the diff ratio X the transfer gear ratio. The actual ring and pinion on a 3.90 trans is only 3.75:1.

Anyway Rob if looking for 604 donors, if you care about gearing all you need to do is count teeth and do the math. The lower geared (imo more desirable) ring and pinion set is 16/60 teeth. The transfer gears are so easy to swap i wouldnt worry much about them.

bakes
09-06-2011, 01:49 AM
That was me, maybe brent did it too. I just used jumper cables to add resistance to the ground circuit since my HF welder (like yours) just has a HI/LO current switch. You could use either one or both runs of the jumpers. IIRC when i tried to run it through both cables it dropped enough voltage that it wouldnt even arc, and those were good cables.

One of the mods that Strax22 did to my HF welder was adding a contactor to it so it is only hot when the trigger is pulled, because as delivered it's hot anytime the power switch is on. That helped a lot.


You're comparing diff ratio to final drive ratio. 3.90 is a diff ratio. 2.36-2.49 are final drive ratio (diff ratio x 4th gear ratio). Although when i say diff ratio it's actually the diff ratio X the transfer gear ratio. The actual ring and pinion on a 3.90 trans is only 3.75:1.

Anyway Rob if looking for 604 donors, if you care about gearing all you need to do is count teeth and do the math. The lower geared (imo more desirable) ring and pinion set is 16/60 teeth. The transfer gears are so easy to swap i wouldnt worry much about them.
OTGR
3.0l 1989 2.36:1, 1991 2.52:1 ,1993 2.49:1
3.3l 1990 2.36:1, 1991 2.52:1, 1993 2.49:1
3.3lawd 1991 2.36:1
3.8l 1991 2.19:1 ,1993 2:20:1,19942.38:1
3.8lawd 1992 2.52:1
2.0l 1995 3.90:1
2.4 ?????????????????????
2.7 ???????????????????????

thats right from the 41te/ae transalxe service / diagnostic proceedures & refinements manual page 552

turbovanmanČ
09-06-2011, 02:12 AM
Don't you have a 220 volt oven or dryer?

Pretty cool your getting the 604 stuff worked out. :nod:

I didn't know the 604 and the 3 speed LU used the same converter, that's awesome.

I could only get 3000 rpm out of my Neon 3 speed converter but it was awesome around town, nice and tight.

ShelGame
09-06-2011, 07:19 AM
IMO just get a regular neon auto converter. They stall close to 3000 rpm (maybe over 3000 with brake boosting), have lockup, fit 604s, and are cheap.

For the record either 3 or 4spd neon converter will work.. the 31th lockup converters and the SMALLER of the 604 converters (only v6s got the bigger one) are interchangeable. :)

Really? I think I have an A413 LU Converter in my stash of spares...


How tough it is to set up a 220 circuit probably depends on whether you care what is legal or not. Some jurisdictions are stupid about permitting and only letting licensed people touch things, etc.

If you dont care, its just running wires. Depending on how far where you're going with it is from where it's coming from, that could be a big job.

Actually, where I'd put the welder (and outlet) is about a foot away from the panel....

---------- Post added at 07:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 AM ----------


Don't you have a 220 volt oven or dryer?

Nope. Gas dryer. There's no outlet in htere for an electric...

Aries_Turbo
09-06-2011, 08:00 AM
dont use a 413 converter. it doesnt have the roller thrust like the neon if its original.

adam, i have the mig151. it already has the contactor and it has 4 power settings. :)

Brian

ShelGame
09-06-2011, 08:32 AM
Don't you have a 220 volt oven or dryer?

Actually, the oven is 220, now that I think about it... Does that help somehow? I won't be welding in the kitchen, lol...

ShelGame
09-06-2011, 10:14 AM
Is the lockup clutch in the Neon converter strong enough for turbo use? I would have assumed that the PT Turbo LU clutch was a little bit beefier...

Vigo
09-06-2011, 02:21 PM
I honestly wouldnt assume that any of the lockup clutches are much stronger than any other since most of the cars probably have controls that will kick you out of lockup under high-torque conditions. That is ANOTHER assumption on my part but i think it's true.

Simon ran a neon lockup converter in his van and i dont remember him posting anything about blowing through it, and i think he has at times made as much or more torque as you ever plan to with a ~300hp setup. Maybe he will post here, or pm him.

turbovanmanČ
09-06-2011, 02:43 PM
I am running the Neon converter, modded for stall only, I have aprox 12000 km's on it and boost 18 psi in LU on the freeway to pass people etc, so far, not a hint of slippage etc.

I know "DOHCrocks" had a custom one built with a billet cover and his slips badly, so maybe the stockers aren't so bad after all.

Aries_Turbo
09-06-2011, 10:36 PM
rob, make an extension cable to go from the oven to the welding area :)

racerstev on neons.org has decent experience with boosting stock lockups in his neon and knowing when they die :). i also remember turbojerry saying something about it too on here.

ShelGame
09-06-2011, 10:45 PM
Hmm... MIG (http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/mig-flux-welders/120-amp-230-volt-mig-and-flux-welder-97503.html) or TIG (http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/tig-arc-welders/240-volt-inverter-arc-tig-welder-66787.html)? Price isn't that much different...

It appears that the TIG should be capable of welding a roll cage just fine. Gets better reviews than the MIG, too.

shackwrrr
09-06-2011, 11:13 PM
Hmm... MIG (http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/mig-flux-welders/120-amp-230-volt-mig-and-flux-welder-97503.html) or TIG (http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/tig-arc-welders/240-volt-inverter-arc-tig-welder-66787.html)? Price isn't that much different...

It appears that the TIG should be capable of welding a roll cage just fine. Gets better reviews than the MIG, too.

depends on the tig, there are so many options that by the time you get one thats usable its near 2k for one

Aries_Turbo
09-07-2011, 08:33 AM
yeah that HF Tig isnt going to be the same as something like a miller tig or even an eastwood tig.

its not going to have High Frequency start so you are going to have to scratch start it which can contaminate the electrodes.

thats going to have similar results as the folks using car alternators for tig welding. it can produce nice welds on steel and stainless steel but welding aluminum isnt going to be a very reasonable option.

http://classicbroncos.com/homemade-welder.shtml

Brian

ShelGame
09-07-2011, 09:09 AM
yeah that HF Tig isnt going to be the same as something like a miller tig or even an eastwood tig.

its not going to have High Frequency start so you are going to have to scratch start it which can contaminate the electrodes.

thats going to have similar results as the folks using car alternators for tig welding. it can produce nice welds on steel and stainless steel but welding aluminum isnt going to be a very reasonable option.

http://classicbroncos.com/homemade-welder.shtml

Brian

I only want it for welding steel. I actually prefer TIG to MIG. I was never ay good at MIG. Plus, I like the nice beads you can pull with TIG. Not having a high-freq start is a bummer; not welding aluminum would be expected at this price...

The problem my brother-in-law has with the HF MIG is always with the wire feed. It keeps jamming and crimping the wire. He probably wastes 20% of a spool due to the feed crapping out. Maybe it would be better as an actual TIG (with gas) as opposed to flux core wire?

Aries_Turbo
09-07-2011, 09:56 AM
if you replace the liner with a steel one and add a washer so that the spring doesnt catch the plastic ribbing on the spool, it feeds pretty nice. addding a 100uf capacitor on the wire feed motor terminals smooths out the wire feed circuitry too.

im going to make a metal brace for the plastic wire feed roller holder/tension arm to stiffen that up to make it more consistent.

obviously they arent the best welders in the world, but for the price combined with a little tinkering, they weld really well.

try the tig. id like to see how well it does. :)

Brian

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

you may want to make a bracket and use a throttle cable and a spring to a homemade pedal so you can control the power knob with your foot. :)

Brian

Vigo
09-07-2011, 12:54 PM
I have not had any problems with the feed on my HF welder. However, i also have never kinked it or run over it or dropped tools on it, etc. So who knows.

ShelGame
09-10-2011, 02:04 PM
OK, new more immediate problem - the sunroof leaks. It seems to be coming from the knob? This is the factory sunroof. How hard are they to repair/re-seal? JCW sell anything that can be used to fix them up?

glhs0426
09-10-2011, 02:10 PM
Doesn't the weatherstrip butt together right there also? If so, water could be coming in at the weatherstrip gap, run down, and drip off the knob.

ShelGame
09-10-2011, 03:12 PM
Actually, the entire outer weatherstrip is cracked and dry-rotted. Looks like I need to call Omni-Potent and get a new one. The inner looks OK. The knob/lift mechansim is between the inner and outer seals, which is probably why it leaks down thru there. The sunroof area also has watter pooled in the corners. No rot that I can see, though.

Guess I need to pull the glass panel soon. Hmm, I htink I have a spare. I wonder if the weather strip is in good shape on that one? I'll have to go look...

wallace
09-12-2011, 08:58 AM
Not sure on these cars but check the drains while you have the sunroof out of it. Lot of times the holes plug up with debris.

ShelGame
09-12-2011, 09:19 AM
Not sure on these cars but check the drains while you have the sunroof out of it. Lot of times the holes plug up with debris.

I looked - I didn't even see any drain holes in the sunroof cavity.

I also noticed that my 'spare' sunroof lift mechanism works a whole lot better than the one in the car. I'm going to swap them out next chance I get. The one in the car seems to be broken, it only lifts the glass up about halfway.

I did actually make some progress on the car this weekend. I got the fascia mounted, but not bolted up. And I got the hatch trim re-installed.

wallace
09-12-2011, 09:28 AM
I think you may not see the drains until you have the seal removed?

shackwrrr
09-12-2011, 11:08 AM
The outer seal does nothing for water. It's only for leaves and solids. The innet seal is the one that seals out water. There are 4 drains, one in each corner that sheds water away from the pan. There is a gasket between the lift mech and the pan that prevents water from leaking in there. I have a really nice inner seal if you need one.

ShelGame
09-12-2011, 11:24 AM
The outer seal does nothing for water. It's only for leaves and solids. The innet seal is the one that seals out water. There are 4 drains, one in each corner that sheds water away from the pan. There is a gasket between the lift mech and the pan that prevents water from leaking in there. I have a really nice inner seal if you need one.

Yeah, I think my lift seal must be fubar'd. It leaks thru the knob. I was going to see if I could make a new seal when I swap out the lift. Is it just a flat gasket? Or is it molded?

cordes
09-12-2011, 12:13 PM
Yeah, I think my lift seal must be fubar'd. It leaks thru the knob. I was going to see if I could make a new seal when I swap out the lift. Is it just a flat gasket? Or is it molded?

On the 87' S cars it's a flat gasket which has the four holes for the bolts too. We just used some RTV on Jon's car this last week. It appears to be the same mechanism so you should be able to do the same with yours.

Reaper1
09-12-2011, 10:19 PM
There should be drain holes and hoses. The hoses go down into the rocker panel, but don't drain out that I know of. I'd say you really need to check them.

ShelGame
09-14-2011, 10:12 PM
Doh! The hatch glass seems to be leaking, too. Isn't that sealed the same as the windshield? Mastic?

Reaper1
09-14-2011, 10:31 PM
Are you SURE it's the glass? Of the 4 g-bodies I've owned over the years, 3 have leaked in the hatch area, but it wasn't from the glass. I STILL have NO clue where the leak is coming from on ANY of those cars!

black86glhs
09-15-2011, 01:20 AM
A seam was leaking. Used to do water intrusion on cars when I first started out in the biz.

135sohc
09-15-2011, 01:35 AM
Are you SURE it's the glass? Of the 4 g-bodies I've owned over the years, 3 have leaked in the hatch area, but it wasn't from the glass. I STILL have NO clue where the leak is coming from on ANY of those cars!

roof seam just above the hatch.

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 09:46 AM
Are you SURE it's the glass? Of the 4 g-bodies I've owned over the years, 3 have leaked in the hatch area, but it wasn't from the glass. I STILL have NO clue where the leak is coming from on ANY of those cars!

When I opened the hatch the other day (after it had been raining), water dripped down from between the glass and metal up near the top RH corner. On the outside, the black rubber trim is dry cracked and coming up. So, I assumed the water was coming in there. Actually, all of the black rubber trim is pretty fubar'd on the hatch.

---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------


roof seam just above the hatch.

And that would make water collect between the glass and metal in the hatch itself? I didn't have enough water for it to drip until I opened the hatch. Then it dripped down from the hatch itself.

I need to get this car indoors...

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 11:26 AM
OK, intercoolers.

I'm starting with the stock VNT intercooler for the sake of simplicity and I like the way I can plumb it up with the front mount turbo. However, it doesn't flow so well (and I think that's putting it nicely).

So, what I really want to do is make a water-to-air intercooler that is the same basic size and shape as the stock VNT I/C. I even have a spare that I can cut the tanks off of for a stock appearance; and so I won't have to change my plumbing after I get it setup with the stock VNT I/C. The problem is, I'm having a hard time finding a water-to-air I/C core anywhere (without tanks). Air-to-air cores seem to be plentiful. Based on the core size I need (3x6x12"), I'm guessing it will end up being a custom core. Anyone know of a place that can do custom size water-to-air I/C cores? I want to at least figure out what this custom I/C will cost me...

Vigo
09-15-2011, 01:17 PM
You have a spare what, vnt ic?

Why not make a dual-core stock-style ic like Alan (2.216vturbo) did and then close up the outside and run water across the cores? I dont know if you have room for that, plus it's a little crazy.. hehehe

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 01:49 PM
You have a spare what, vnt ic?

Why not make a dual-core stock-style ic like Alan (2.216vturbo) did and then close up the outside and run water across the cores? I dont know if you have room for that, plus it's a little crazy.. hehehe

That would force me to ditch the A/C condenser - or at least move it. Don't really want to do that. I think if I can find/get a dedicated water-to-air core, the airflow will be much better than a stock VNT I/C. The water passages can be much smaller which therefore allows for larger air passages. Plus, the cooling is better; no heat soak, etc. I'd use the Lighting I/C radiator and pump as they're proven parts that I've worked with before (when I was at Roush/SVT).

Vigo
09-15-2011, 02:24 PM
I was actually talking about making a dual core where you just put another core BEHIND the stock one.. double thick, not double wide. Even with the airflow issues it worked for Alan, but with air to water there wouldnt be those issues anyway.

wallace
09-15-2011, 02:27 PM
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/index.html If they don't have one off the shelf you can use I believe they will make you what you want. Are you trying to find a A/W core that is same dimension as the one that mounts in the stock location? If so, you may have an issue finding or getting one made as the flow through the AW core is opposite the AA.

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 02:56 PM
I was actually talking about making a dual core where you just put another core BEHIND the stock one.. double thick, not double wide. Even with the airflow issues it worked for Alan, but with air to water there wouldnt be those issues anyway.

Yeah, but then it would come into the engine bay. Clearance to the A604 would be tough, and it would mess up my I/C plumbing. I plan to do it once for the stock I/C, then just swap in the W2A I/C when I get it built. I think Bell Intercoolers probably has something I can make work...

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------


http://www.bellintercoolers.com/index.html If they don't have one off the shelf you can use I believe they will make you what you want. Are you trying to find a A/W core that is same dimension as the one that mounts in the stock location? If so, you may have an issue finding or getting one made as the flow through the AW core is opposite the AA.

Basically, yes. Except that I want the water to flow side-to-side instead of front to back.

wallace
09-15-2011, 03:07 PM
What about moving the IC towards the engine? If I was going to do an AW setup on one of these cars I would buy the core and fabricate the end tanks so that it was close-coupled to the compressor outlet and the throttle body inlet. You could use a cheapo AW off of Ebay or the like and cut the end tanks off and make your own. If you must keep it in that location I think you're best bet would be to use a AA core modified to cool with water.

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 03:28 PM
What about moving the IC towards the engine? If I was going to do an AW setup on one of these cars I would buy the core and fabricate the end tanks so that it was close-coupled to the compressor outlet and the throttle body inlet. You could use a cheapo AW off of Ebay or the like and cut the end tanks off and make your own. If you must keep it in that location I think you're best bet would be to use a AA core modified to cool with water.

I will be close. I'm using the 420a head so the compressor outlet is right next to I/C in stock location. I'm going to have the turbo outlet pointing down, which will make that leg of the piping about 6" long. The upper will basically be straight with an elbow on the end to get to the 420a intake manifold.

It's probably hard to visualize. As soon as I get a complete turbo to put on there, I'll start mocking things up on the stand. Or, just take a look at any 420a turbo setup. I think you'll see how easy it will be to hook up an IC in the stock location.

wallace
09-15-2011, 04:07 PM
ah that's right you're cheating using a 16v head! :D Makes sense now.

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 04:23 PM
ah that's right you're cheating using a 16v head! :D Makes sense now.

Hah! Cheating. I feel like I'm the last to the 16v party...

Vigo
09-15-2011, 05:39 PM
I know what a 420 looks like.. i had a 420a setup that i was considering building a hybrid out of but changed my mind and sold it. Anyway, based on what i remember seems to me like you could just run a cylindrical a/w ic perpendicular to the head, from the turbo outlet to the TB. In fact, recently ive given some thought to sticking one of those things in between the stock IC and the throttle body in one of these cars (although i dont necessarily think it's a good idea) and that's pretty much the same packaging.

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 08:21 PM
I know what a 420 looks like.. i had a 420a setup that i was considering building a hybrid out of but changed my mind and sold it. Anyway, based on what i remember seems to me like you could just run a cylindrical a/w ic perpendicular to the head, from the turbo outlet to the TB. In fact, recently ive given some thought to sticking one of those things in between the stock IC and the throttle body in one of these cars (although i dont necessarily think it's a good idea) and that's pretty much the same packaging.

I could do that, but I also want to run a distributor off the end of the cam. I think space over there would get really tight if I tried to stuff an IC over there, too. But, I guess it could possibly fit under the dizzy. Maybe one of those square body ones...

Vigo
09-15-2011, 10:54 PM
I forgot about the dizzy. You obviously know more about your plans than i do, hehe.

moparman76_69
09-15-2011, 11:08 PM
You have any idea what cams you're going to run? The stock 420a cams are the same as 2.0 neon cams as far as I can tell except the exhaust cam has the magnet on it.

ShelGame
09-16-2011, 07:03 AM
You have any idea what cams you're going to run? The stock 420a cams are the same as 2.0 neon cams as far as I can tell except the exhaust cam has the magnet on it.

Starting with stock...

ShelGame
10-03-2011, 09:50 AM
I think I might have to let this one go :(. I didn't have enough time to get the floors sorted and the interior in. Now Winter is setting in and I have 2 cars sitting out side. The race car can't sit outside all winter. So, I think I'm going to 'store' the interior in the red car so I can at least get the race car back in the garage for the winter. Also, I really want to get a new set of slicks and a cage for the race car.

So, this project is going to go. I'm keeping the engine for a future project. I've been wanting to try out rally racing (it's the only form I haven't ever tried). I was thinking an AWD turbo Neon would be sweet. Someday. When I have time. Sigh...

Directconnection
10-03-2011, 10:20 AM
After seeing this thread always at the top of the "new posts" I finally decided to check it out after reading your thread since it's 1st post and I see this?

You can put it on hiatus.... but can't abort your tie and effort now?

Believe it or not, I am still slowly working on mine until the snow flies (well, 'till it's too cold outside to work in the garage)

ShelGame
10-03-2011, 10:32 AM
The problem is, I don't have any place to keep it and no time to work on it. And, I want to do some things to the race car this winter. With 3 kids, I REALLY don't have time for 2 projects. I had hoped to get the sheet metal work done and the interior in by the end of the summer. But, that didn't happen. Now, it would basically have to sit for a year before I could get back to it. Plus, my wife doesn't want it in the driveway all winter (and it WILL be a pain in the a$$ to snow blow around) and I need some cash to do the work I want to do to the race car.

I am keeping the drivetrain for a future project. When I bought this car, I was really wanting an L-Body anyway instead of another G. But, it was a good deal at the time.

Aries_Turbo
10-03-2011, 12:38 PM
you gonna still work on the 41te stuff?

ShelGame
10-03-2011, 01:09 PM
you gonna still work on the 41te stuff?

Yep. As soon as I get the '92 SBECII code all wrapped up, I'm digging into the TCM...

Reaper1
10-03-2011, 03:01 PM
Well, that's at least some good news! Sorry about the bummed project, though. :(

Aries_Turbo
10-03-2011, 05:49 PM
Yep. As soon as I get the '92 SBECII code all wrapped up, I'm digging into the TCM...

YAY! lol

you have a 41te vehicle or are you going to need us to do testing?

i may have to get scrounging for a 41te sooner than later to bolt to my 2.4L and pop it in my k car.... or even my neon. :)

Brian

turbovanmanČ
10-04-2011, 02:57 AM
Say it aint so? :(

www.cxracing.com has some awesome air to water IC's and they are reasonable.

Carcraft tested their small one and it has almost no pressure drop and kept the temps ice cold.

ShelGame
10-04-2011, 07:26 AM
YAY! lol

you have a 41te vehicle or are you going to need us to do testing?

i may have to get scrounging for a 41te sooner than later to bolt to my 2.4L and pop it in my k car.... or even my neon. :)

Brian

This car WAS going to be my 41te car. But, now I won't have one...

---------- Post added at 07:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 AM ----------


Say it aint so? :(

Yep, not enough time/space/money for 2 project cars (right now). So, this one needs to find a new home...

Force Fed Mopar
10-04-2011, 07:33 AM
I just got rid of 3 projects and 2 parts cars, I know the feeling :) I did get one nice car back though, and I have room to store them.

You wouldn't be interested in a Charger w/ a rollcage installed in it would you? :D

Aries_Turbo
10-04-2011, 05:59 PM
i just got rid of 3 cars and a bike project.

traded the bike/parts for a mint set of cutting torches and tanks. the guy threw in a new (but old) nitrous bottle and a auto dimming welding helmet. rock on!

sold the TD's minus my k car and all my spare parts minus some key ones.

sold a subaru.

its nice not having stuff hanging over my head and having my garage cleaned out. :)

Brian

Directconnection
10-04-2011, 06:11 PM
i just got rid of 3 cars and a bike project.

traded the bike/parts for a mint set of cutting torches and tanks. the guy threw in a new (but old) nitrous bottle and a auto dimming welding helmet. rock on!

sold the TD's minus my k car and all my spare parts minus some key ones.

sold a subaru.

its nice not having stuff hanging over my head and having my garage cleaned out. :)

Brian

I had a friend over this afternoon (week off) and I told him (as we both horded lots of stuff over the years) that I got to the point of A) showing off my garage packed full of T-II this and that and no room to move, and no actual car... or B) room to move around and finally having a car worthy of talking about like what I am 2/3rds of the way finished with (my '90 Shadow VNT/T-III project)

I do miss all the "cool" stuff I had on hand, but so look forward to having a cool car in the end. A trade-off worthy of doing.

Besides, now I am slowly hording T-III stuff :evil:

Force Fed Mopar
10-04-2011, 07:51 PM
its nice not having stuff hanging over my head and having my garage cleaned out. :)

Brian

Hell yeah it is.

ShelGame
10-04-2011, 08:13 PM
i just got rid of 3 cars and a bike project.

traded the bike/parts for a mint set of cutting torches and tanks. the guy threw in a new (but old) nitrous bottle and a auto dimming welding helmet. rock on!

sold the TD's minus my k car and all my spare parts minus some key ones.

sold a subaru.

its nice not having stuff hanging over my head and having my garage cleaned out. :)

Brian

Yes, that will be nice - if I ever get there. Right now, there's a complete Daytona interior (and then some) occupying one half of the garage, and a massive pile of kids toys occupying the other half. The race car wants it's spot back. And, some of those kids toys are going to get the boot as well. There's 2 boys and 6 bike type toys over there for crying out loud...

Reaper1
10-04-2011, 10:55 PM
Well...if I ever get Charlotte running I'll have a dedicated test bed for 41TE stuff....

Vigo
10-05-2011, 10:39 AM
Reaper1 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.......

Reaper1
10-11-2011, 12:09 AM
Hmm....guess I'll have to fix that! LOL

ShelGame
05-22-2012, 11:33 AM
Sooo, I can see the ligt at the end of the tunnel with my Daytona race car. I'm kind of looking for a place to put the 424a engine I started piecing together originally for this Daytona. I'm thinking it'd be nice to get my old van back, or maybe another van; 2nd gen maybe; or even a Omni/Horizon for a GLH clone. I'm not serious about it yet; but I do have a bonus coming my way...

turbovanmanČ
05-22-2012, 02:55 PM
2nd Gen 420A all the way, :partywoot:

ShelGame
05-22-2012, 02:57 PM
2nd Gen 420A all the way, :partywoot:

If only I could find a decent one. Up here they're all rusted out, especially the 4-cyl ones. I'd love to find a black or red Sport (love that body work) to convert.

turbovanmanČ
05-22-2012, 02:58 PM
Ditto. What about a 3rd Gen?

ShelGame
05-22-2012, 03:00 PM
Ditto. What about a 3rd Gen?

3rd gen wiring and electronics might was well be a Honda to me...

turbovanmanČ
05-22-2012, 03:07 PM
3rd gen wiring and electronics might was well be a Honda to me...

If you get one with the 2.4, then it won't be as bad, :nod:

ShelGame
05-22-2012, 03:12 PM
If you get one with the 2.4, then it won't be as bad, :nod:

Still have to make it turbo, get the OBDII stuff to work right, possibly convince the van it's actually a PT Cruiser, CAN bus, etc. Blech. I think I'll keep it to a '95 or lower. I'd also consider a '95 Neon. There's an NYG one for sale here locally for $1700. More than I was wanting to spend, though. I'd even consider a '95 Stratus if it wasn't for that SNL/Will Ferrel skit. I'd feel compelled to yell 'I drive a Dodge Stratus!' everywhere I went...


http://youtu.be/P2uUDkMYtrQ

Vigo
05-24-2012, 08:05 AM
LOL.

Ive had a 95 neon and a 5spd stratus. I liked them both. If i was going to have more than enough power id go for the stratus, seems to be a lot better built in my experience.