PDA

View Full Version : Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Sundance 6g72
06-22-2011, 11:29 PM
updated as of April 2014


So the car no longer exists. I still have the trans and Engine sitting, ready for another project. This is all relevant info on the build. Its been almost 3 years sense this post was started (and even longer on turbo dodge.com)


Setup

Motor

- Stock Rotating Assembly
- 1G DSM headbolts used to hold main girdle in place
- 270 Degree Cams
- 3.3 dodge engine Valve springs (beehive, stiffer)
- LS1 Retainers and Locks (lighter and work with the new springs)
- stock headbolts, rod bolts, etc.
- stock headgasket with copper spray. bolts tightened to 90ft lb

Bolt Ons

- KMP Crossover turbo mount
- Custom made rear LOG manifold (not great but worlds better than stock)
- Ported upper plenum
- half inch spacers
- 2.5inch downpipe custom made
- 3inch catback
- ebay turbo. Wheel sizes similar to a GT3076R
- 3inch large FMIC
- 42 (or 48?? cant remember) external wastegate

Tuning and Fuel

- 46 or 48lb injectors
- walbro 255
- Megasquirt II. Batch injection. 1 coil driver running the dizzy.
- stock rail and regulator


These are the project files for my engine. I included two folders; 2012 and 2013.

2012
- E85
- Stock Cam
- Custom hear exhaust header
- ported Chrysler upper intake with half inch spacers.
- 2.5inch downpipe with 3inch exhaust
- lots of timing at 15psi (I think more than necessary). This was the difference between 300hp and 315hp however.
- BIG intercooler (3inch piping)
- AFR was 12.5-11ish, cant remember.
- 46 (or 48) lb injectors at stock fuel pressure (whatever that is)
- walbro 255 with stock lines
- 3.3 valve springs and LS1 retainers and locks?
- 1993 pistons (slightly lower compression)

2013
- 270 degree cams offered by 'turbovanman'
- E85
- timing relaxed a bit for safety concerns.
- fuel map and timing map extended to fit more boost (I only ran 8psi because my injectors were too small to run anything more with the big cams)
- everything else the same.

The tune should not just be uploaded to your ECU. Firmware differences will come into play and mess things up. Its best to copy settings over setting by setting and then import the fuel/timing/afr maps over if you want. Anyone can download these, im all about open source.

*Disclaimer* I started tuning this thing at age 18 knowing absolutely nothing. Im 21 now and still have much to learn about tuning so dont think his was professionally done. My tunes got me to school and work for 2-3 years so id say I did a decent job. Use at own risk :)

link is to my dropbox, it should work https://www.dropbox.com/s/6y607qimo0137kf/Sundance_%206g72_Tunes.zip



edit: also note that I use e85. You can get pretty close to 93 octane numbers by pulling exactly 30% of the fuel from the fuel map (thats how I did it) or you can mess with the "required fuel" settings to pull 30% fuel. I found that taking 30% from the fuel map was the easiest because I could import an export the correct map for whatever fuel I was running that week. Also note, the timing for e85 is much more aggressive above 100kpa than I would have ran with e85. Im not sure how much timing I pulled when running 93oct, use at your own risk. The meth should help a ton as you know.



Dyno in 2012 made 300 and 315hp on 15psi (injectors MAXED) with the lame turbo and stock cams. In 2013 the new cams were installed. The boost had to be dropped to 8psi to make the same horsepower (same injector duty cycle). Injectors are holding the power back right now and the cams did their job.


2012 dyno pull at Steve Morris Engines (yes the same Steve Morris who won 2013 Drag Week)

http://youtu.be/PCWJLYdO7DU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwfdyOaVj4Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lTNfTsM5kw

49586


Other videos are on my channel. I hope to put this motor into a Neon in the future.

Ondonti
06-23-2011, 07:27 AM
Gotta love the instant torque at 2k rpms lol. I would love to see a pull from idle.

Force Fed Mopar
06-23-2011, 07:33 AM
I think you're gonna need bigger injectors :)

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 12:46 PM
Gotta love the instant torque at 2k rpms lol. I would love to see a pull from idle.

the dyno guy wanted me to do it from 2200 or so and it was my first time so i didnt know if idle was a good idea

but yeah, instant bragging rights right there with 160lbs at 2200rpms. cant ask for more than that. I love that toque curve.

edit: pull was 4th gear (if that even matters) and it worked out because i think the rev limiter is right where the 120mph speed limiter is

i think if i did a few things better i would have had some higher numbers. My cold air intake is kind of ghetto and could use some re working, my plenum spacers and plenum porting its self could have been better along with a ported throttle body (i ported my buddies last night.. such a piece of cake. i dont know why i havnt done mine yet.) that and if i bumped up the fuel pressure a tad (WOT 13.2 on the wideband. partial throttle is like 12.4 ) i think we would have had some slightly higher numbers.


I think you're gonna need bigger injectors :)

ehh maybe for e85. im sticking with 93 pump for now. If i ever have a need for bigger injectors, ill have a bigger (higher quality) turbo and a dual pump setup first along with various other things that are more important

i know of a few guys running 30# and they love it


i think megasquirt gets here today, cant freaking wait :evil:

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Boost gauge is in, hopefully have that installed today

bond_bbs
06-23-2011, 01:38 PM
I've always loved watching your progress on the other site, cuz your build is semi similar to mine.

But don't forgot some of the small things - silicon couplers and clamps for IC tubing, strong vacuum/boost lines for your WG and boost gauge (my prosport gauge only came with 2 feet of boost/vac hose), a handful of colorful wiring - strip an old EEK and you can find matching colors - in 14 and 20wg to wire everything together, soldering iron, shrink wrap, wire wrap. This is all stuff that gets commonly forgotten until its needed.

As for which gear the dyno run was done in - it does matter. A dyno run should be done in a gear that gives as close as possible to a 1:1 ratio. For most 5spds, that would be 4th.

Vigo
06-23-2011, 01:42 PM
What kind of turbo is it? 63 trim what?

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 03:05 PM
I've always loved watching your progress on the other site, cuz your build is semi similar to mine.

But don't forgot some of the small things - silicon couplers and clamps for IC tubing, strong vacuum/boost lines for your WG and boost gauge (my prosport gauge only came with 2 feet of boost/vac hose), a handful of colorful wiring - strip an old EEK and you can find matching colors - in 14 and 20wg to wire everything together, soldering iron, shrink wrap, wire wrap. This is all stuff that gets commonly forgotten until its needed.

As for which gear the dyno run was done in - it does matter. A dyno run should be done in a gear that gives as close as possible to a 1:1 ratio. For most 5spds, that would be 4th.

i only needed to use a few inches of the prosport vac line. i have the electronic sender. Im still working on getting it in but im getting close

i have access to alot of those things you named off and i have some money set aside for those things that im sure to miss


What kind of turbo is it? 63 trim what?

okay.. secrets out

cx racing ebay .63 trim with a .60 AR. It has worked for a guy on the other side very well and he loves it. If i buy a nice turbo, its going to be a brand new bullseye power turbo but they are more than i can afford right now

im getting it going on low boost with the cheep "proven" turbo first and ill move up.

bond_bbs
06-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Ahh.. okay.. I'm running my boost/vac analog, so I needed a bit more hose than that.

Force Fed Mopar
06-23-2011, 04:32 PM
Well stock turbo 2.2's run 33# injectors, so... :) Of course, a stock 2.2 makes about the same power as the stock 3.0 w/ 2 less cyls lol, so that's probably why. What boost level are you gonna run?

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 05:53 PM
yeah v6 needs smaller injectors

right now im at 147whp and 168tq with stock 19# and stock fuel pressure.

im going to start at 8psi and if im comfortable ill go to 12psi.

i think ed made close to 300whp on 8psi? but dont quote me on t hat

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 09:22 PM
boost gauge installed

when car is off but key is in the on position, my gauge reads right under zero. and when i go WOT the gauge reads right under the spot that it red when the car was off

it holds -2psi - -4 or so from 2000rpms to redline. once the car warmed up it was a little less

i think you have to calibrate these gauges to get the 0psi when car is off correct but im not sure....... ill look into that.

Vigo
06-23-2011, 10:59 PM
I still dont know what that turbo is. Trim numbers don't mean much without knowing what family of turbo it is because trim is just a ratio between the inducer and exducer diameters of a wheel.

If you know what family of turbo it is, trim numbers mean something because USUALLY the exducer diameter is the same and you can work backwards from that.

So is it something like a t3 or t4? A lot of turbos are t3 turbine and t4 compressor "hybrids" so it could be something like that as well.

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 11:24 PM
they say its a T3 T4 turbo and it uses Wet Floating Bearings

Vigo
06-23-2011, 11:32 PM
this one?

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=TRB-T3T4-V

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 11:35 PM
yes

nothing special but it has gotten the job done for Dr shred on the other site

Vigo
06-23-2011, 11:41 PM
t70 compressor side is pretty darn big (but not too big, i think its good). It doesnt say what stage the exhaust wheel is but the pic there makes it look pretty big, maybe stg3? I think it will work well.

Sundance 6g72
06-23-2011, 11:45 PM
yeah they dont give much information on it.. im basically going by what shred said. I forget when he said he made full boost.. it wasnt too early and it held all the way to redline.

im kind of wondering why the wastegate actuator has two vacume line hook ups.. ive looked at a few of my buddies turbos (t25 from a 1g dsm, a 2.2 mitsu turbo dodge turbo,) and they only have 1 on the actuator

it makes sense to have one.. boost comes from the intake manifold or wherever you want and it goes to the actuator and once you hit 8psi it opens the wastegate.. but why two?

Vigo
06-24-2011, 01:24 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

"A dual port wastegate adds a second port on the opposite side of the actuator. Air pressure allowed to enter this second port aids the spring to push harder in the direction of closing the wastegate. This is exactly the opposite of the first port. The ability to help the wastegate remain closed as boost pressure builds can be increased. This also adds further complexity to boost control, requiring more control ports on the solenoid or possibly a complete second boost control system with its own separate solenoid. Use of the second port is not necessary."

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 01:55 AM
hmm

so which one is the second port???

Ondonti
06-24-2011, 06:00 AM
Its just a warmup turbo. Remember my original setup was an Ebay turbo, pretty large one, but still ebay turbo. You can stay forever with your warmup turbo unless it decides to blow up.

It does sound like there was some power on the table with AFR more like a 12.5-12.9 and other things you mentioned. It is cool going on a dyno at the start, then being able to hit the dyno with turbo.

6 cylinders can make about as much HP as they have # of injector x10. That is if you run a real EMS setup.
The Duster on E70 and 47# injectors ran out of fuel with megasquirt at 13 or 14 pounds (that was with supplemental 100% methanol in 2500cc flavor. On Rising Rate regulator, and only 33# injectors, it did not run out of injector, but out of fuel pump above 20psi. :P The pump was okay most of the time but you need to have a large margin of safety on your pump for those times it bogs down.
Everyone should know that from watching me go boom boom.
300whp is possible on those injectors he has. With increased fuel pressure he can probably make a lot more if he has enough fuel pump. Hotwire the pump and you have more to play with. I also suggest blocking off the bypass without breaking the pump in the process like I JUST did.

There is also a huge difference between running out of fuel injector according to megasquirt, and actually running out of fuel and going boom boom. I was running 9+ millisecond pulse widths so that is why I decided I was out of fuel on Megasquirt. Not that I can remember now why 9 milliseconds is the limit.

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 12:33 PM
i really think 300hp will be to much for my car.. i remember watching your videos and hearing the car chirp into 4th gear on low boost and other videos where it wants to drive off the road

im playing with megasquirt right now. i have 87turbodance (http://www.turbododge.com/forums/4267-87turbodance.html)'s tune loaded right now. im changing a few things (by looking at his settings, he was using low impedance injectors, i changed that)

one thing that im worried about is his VE table with 30# injectors. im pretty sure it was set for 30s, i changed the injectors size to 19# but will the VE table account for that change or am i going to run lean (smaller injectors, same pulse width as big injector)

remember im starting with 19# injectors and ill move up to my 33# when i install everything

Vigo
06-24-2011, 12:52 PM
Brent's stability problems were not something most people would ever see. Remember that with an OBX or other torque-biasing differential if one side loses traction the other side is going to get even more power than normal and push the car in the direction of the traction loss. Great for autocross, bad for 80+mph wheelspin. Most people either wont have the power to spin at that speed, or wont have the same diff, or wont have drag radials on when it happens (instead of spinning on both sides), etc etc.

87turbodance
06-24-2011, 03:18 PM
87turbodance (http://www.turbododge.com/forums/4267-87turbodance.html)'s [/I]tune loaded right now. im changing a few things (by looking at his settings, he was using low impedance injectors, i changed that)

one thing that im worried about is his VE table with 30# injectors. im pretty sure it was set for 30s, i changed the injectors size to 19# but will the VE table account for that change or am i going to run lean (smaller injectors, same pulse width as big injector)

remember im starting with 19# injectors and ill move up to my 33# when i install everything

I have only ever run 19lb injectors. Initially I had low impedance but now I run high impedance injectors.

Here (http://www.box.net/shared/01f0k6d53dllqpip018i) is a link to the tune I currently run. This is a MS1 Extra HiRes tune so the VE table would need to be exported and imported into a MS2/MS3 tune.

I went an exported them and put them here (http://www.box.net/shared/zy3qfjqdttpp4dd7e8vz)

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 03:56 PM
hmm.. maybe i had changed it from 19# to 30# a while ago and forgot i did that. originally i planned on running 30s so it makes sense now


ill download your current tune, it sounds like it will work flawlessly with my current setup (19#, high impedance)

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 09:24 PM
boost gauge is now calibrated correctly. i get between what looks like -2psi and once the car is really hot under the hood i get -4 to -6 psi :( :( :( looks like i need a better cold air intake but im really not worried about it because the turbo is going in anyways. i will probably port my 52mm throttle body a little bit when the turbo goes on (did my friends recently, it was easy to get a mild porting and polishing on it.. basically just cleaning up the rough edges)

Megasquirt should be here tomorrow for sure! ! ! tracking says its in Grand Rapids Michigan.. thats a 45min drive from my house.. unless you drive a duster, then its a 25min drive http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/eek.gif

EXCITED!

Vigo
06-25-2011, 12:50 AM
If that gauge is right you SHOULD be worried about that vacuum number. Turbo-patch-job isnt going to address the issue.

Ondonti
06-25-2011, 04:50 AM
Either the gauge is causing problems or you have a huge restriction. How high are you reving? The higher you rev, the worse it should get.


The drag radials made that crap scary. It was worse when I had those small tires on the rear. Drag radials just want to grab even when you have too much power for them.
I can say that I am unhappy with the Spirit's suspension. All it has right now are stock springs, clamped front springs, and Gas Adjust rear shocks. When boost hits the front end picks up and when you hit the brakes the car weight transfers in an uncomfortable manner.
Not really sure what I am going to do about that. The Duster is eventually going to lose all its suspension parts but I was not trying to advance that particular timeline.

My P body does feel a lot more confident. I don't know how much of that is the suspension (Just S/T springs, gr2 front, air shocks rear). Its been like 5 years since I stole the suspension off my Spirit so I can't even remember what a firm suspension feels like on my Daily. Its funny that I never even think about it, until the car makes a few weird movements that sketch me out and I think "wow, this suspension is NOT ready for boost."
I have never driven a P body with stock suspension. Don't know what they feel like. Slightly modified oem type parts in a lighter P body will probably beat out OEM AA body stuff in an AA body.
I think something a suspension should do is instill confidence.


The Fuel injector calculation in Megasquirt does not change VE. All it does is change part of the fueling equation. When Megasquirt is calculating fuel, it uses your fuel injector flow as a constant, then it takes the measured MAP and RPM values so it can VE. VE is then added to the equation to get the proper fuel for your RPM/MAP. Its a dang simple equation but it is just amazing for anyone used to ghetto boost fueling.
I do not have my accell enrichments where I want them and that's probably the most important thing for drivability. I used some Modified Neon values that I found then changed them around. Tried a lot of things. I found that one sucky thing is that I go Lean for a split second on throttle tip in during hard gear changes, but if I change my accell enrich to deal with that, it runs like crap in town.The reason why it scared me was because i was already back in boost and it would go lean for a split second and then come back down. I don't know how much AFR lags behind other measurements (how off is AFR on the timeline of events compared to the condition that created the AFR?).

Force Fed Mopar
06-25-2011, 07:58 AM
Don't forget that psi is different from InHg. -6 psi is about 12" Hg.

Sundance 6g72
06-25-2011, 01:05 PM
If that gauge is right you SHOULD be worried about that vacuum number. Turbo-patch-job isnt going to address the issue.

by -2 psi i mean HG or whatever the gauge reads for vacuum. Thats literally 1 notch under 0. from what i understand, its hard as hell to get 0 when WOT


the car pulls hard and has the same reading all the way to redline.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------


Don't forget that psi is different from InHg. -6 psi is about 12" Hg.

i was at -2hg then... so that makes alot more sense i guess...

Force Fed Mopar
06-25-2011, 08:00 PM
I think normal idle vacuum is around 18-22" Hg in general. Not sure what a V6 runs exactly, my 2.2 turbo idles at about 18-19"Hg w/ a mild cam.

Sundance 6g72
06-25-2011, 09:56 PM
my idle is around 20. im talking WOT its at -2hg (very close to 0)

ported intake
intake spacers
52mm throttle body
open element filter on ghetto intake

im not sure what the reading should be for a stock car but i thought i was doing pretty good....

Force Fed Mopar
06-25-2011, 09:58 PM
Sounds about right.

Ondonti
06-26-2011, 06:24 AM
Makes more sense! haha.

Sundance 6g72
06-26-2011, 07:32 AM
you guys had me scared http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/crash.gif

Vigo
06-26-2011, 02:45 PM
2" hg is about 1psi, just as a rule of thumb.

I still think it's a problem. Ive NEVER seen a car that still had 4-6" of vacuum at WOT, and MOST of the vehicles ive ever measured had completely stock intakes!

bond_bbs
06-26-2011, 06:43 PM
May depend where he's pulling the signal from. The rear port in the middle is where I would get the signal from. The top corner port may show more vacuum because of it's proximity to a runner.

Edit: The ports I'm referring to are on the plenum.

Sundance 6g72
06-26-2011, 11:41 PM
2" hg is about 1psi, just as a rule of thumb.

I still think it's a problem. Ive NEVER seen a car that still had 4-6" of vacuum at WOT, and MOST of the vehicles ive ever measured had completely stock intakes!

typically its at -1psi then.. i dont see how this is a problem.

ive read about the big honda guys reving to the moon trying to get 0psi and its just a difficult thing to do. granted its harder to do the higher you rev but when your running a 100mm Throttle body and some HUGE cams, anything is possible


also, i have the signal coming form the brake booster... it was VERY convenient but probably not the best spot.

i will change it if i get a funny boost reading when i am boosted

Vigo
06-27-2011, 12:39 AM
2" at wot it not ideal but not abnormal.. I was going off your earlier post where you said "4 to 6 :(:(:(". Whether it was 4-6"hg or 4-6psi it would still have been a problem.

Ondonti
06-27-2011, 01:42 AM
It does seem excessive since you are saying its happening at all rpms.

Sundance 6g72
06-27-2011, 07:15 PM
-2hg happens from idle to redline when WOT

i need to find a better spot to T the boost gauge in.


megasquirt came today and we are starting the wireing now
intercooler, bov, etc also arrived today

Force Fed Mopar
06-27-2011, 07:45 PM
Sounds normal to me. After all, if there's no vacuum, what's gonna pull the air in? ;)

Sundance 6g72
06-28-2011, 02:26 AM
So i have my MS tune all figured out and set up. Just need to actually get megasquirt into the car...

if someone could explain how im supposed to wire in my 84 omni voltage regulator, that would be appreciated

Force Fed Mopar
06-28-2011, 07:15 AM
It just wires to the field terminals on the alternator.

87turbodance
06-28-2011, 07:47 AM
There is a green and blue wire that come from the alternator. The regulator has a green and blue wire. Connect the colours together. Make sure that the blue wires are also connected to switched 12v (should already be done stock)

Sundance 6g72
06-28-2011, 09:49 AM
i have it figured out

THANKS

Sundance 6g72
06-29-2011, 11:28 AM
my intercooler is HUGE but it will fit.

ill have a picture in a second

bond_bbs
06-29-2011, 01:23 PM
I was actually amazed at how much space there really is between the bumper / grill and the rad support. I thought my intercooler wasn't going to fit either until I mocked it in..

More pics though!

Sundance 6g72
06-29-2011, 04:57 PM
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/261431_10150297895438899_534573898_8992053_6078979 _n.jpg

im leaving now to wire up megasquirt. wish me luck

RoadWarrior222
06-29-2011, 11:05 PM
im leaving now to wire up megasquirt. wish me luck
Good luck, we'll see you next spring ... :D




j/k

Irocelectric93
06-29-2011, 11:14 PM
looking forward to updates. Good luck brah.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 12:53 AM
well MS is in but cant get it to start

it connects to the laptop and everything but when i crank it over nothing happens. im pretty sure the engine is flooding because when i switch to stock ecu it has a hard time starting but once it does start it bogs for a second then its back to normal and runs good.

ill go into detail later on how i have a hotswappable ecu setup (i can swap between MS and sbec by unplugging a few things)

i didnt check for spark but i will tomorrow if i have time.. if im not getting spark that should be an easy fix (power wire for dizzy, MS dizzy timing wrong???)

drove home fine on stock ecu.. so everything works as long as its set up right

Ondonti
06-30-2011, 06:00 AM
From the sounds of how you have it wired, its probably insufficient signal from the Distributor. I would just disconnect the injector wires until you get spark, which will show that MS is actually functioning.
My original install just needed to swap out a few sensor connectors to run the oem ecu.

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 07:25 AM
Will the car actually turn over but not start and run? If this is the case its most likely a timing issue assuming you are getting power to your coil/injectors/spark plugs. Did you set your dizzy trigger the way Ryan explains in his guide? I didn't really have to for mine....but i did follow the steps. Clearly the car is still in time so maybe try messing with the dizzy trigger angle. Start at 65 and work your way up and down. Most of the time 65 is where people seem to find the sweet spot but for me its a little higher. Ryan will chime in im sure. You are getting feedback from all your other sensors correct?

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 11:33 AM
my dizzy trigger is deff way off cuz i put it at 12 HAHAHAHA i thought that was base timing or something.. it was late at night

i have not checked for spark, for all i know im getting spark.

the thought that woke me up this morning was that i didnt hook up the fuel pump wire correctly.. so im going to go check on that and see if my dream was actually right. LOL

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

and yes, car turns over like a champ. MS says the injectors fire when i turn over and everything looks like it should. im going to make sure the fuel pump wire is correct and also play with the trigger angle.

but yeah, remember i can drive on the stock ecu with no issues.. so everything physically works how it should as far as i know.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 12:00 PM
deff not getting spark. i pulled the coil ignition wire (the one that goes to the dizzy) and tested it for power.

i used my craftsmen power checker thing... where you put one end on ground and the other on power. if power comes through the lightbulb turns on. The light never turned on. so im getting now power to the coil is seems to be?

MS says my dizzy goes to 10degrees when i crank. the trigger offset is at 65, i tried playing with it but set it back to 65 because im sure it has nothing to do with coil power??

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 12:15 PM
this confuses me


Setting up the distributor trigger

In Tuner Studio you should setup the idle LED to indicate IRQ. This will make it so that he middle LED will light up whenever the MS tach input is on.
You need to set the dizzy up so that the middle led turns on at whatever trigger angle you choose. If you setup the tach input on MS the way that DiyAutotune says to do it, then the trigger will stay on (middle LED stay on) for 55 degrees for rising edge or 65 degrees for falling edge trigger.
I believe falling edge trigger is the best to use. But you might need to do some trial and error.

So you need to:

Rising edge trigger:

1) Set the crank shaft to 10 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1
2) Turn the dizzy backwards until the middle LED turns on (backwards from the #1 spark terminal in the dizzy cap)
3) Turn the dizzy very slowly forward until the led just turns off and then lock down the dizzy with the bolt.
3) Set the trigger angle in MS to 65

Falling edge:

1) Set the crank shaft to 10 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1
2) Turn the dizzy backwards until the middle LED turns off (backwards from the #1 spark terminal in the dizzy cap)
3) Turn the dizzy very slowly forward until the led just turns off and then lock down the dizzy with the bolt.
3) Set the trigger angle in MS to 75


4) Set the "Cranking timing" to trigger return
5) Set the cranking advance angle to 10 in MS
6) Set a "fixed angle" of 10
7)Verify that at 10 degrees BTDC the rotor is just about to leave the #1 terminal in the cap and at 60 BTDC degrees the rotor is just arriving at the #1 terminal in the cap
8) Get the car to start
9) Verify that you have a 10 BTDC with a timing light with the engine running. Adjust the dizzy to achieve 10 degrees if needed
9) Set the fixed angle back to -10

c2xejk
06-30-2011, 12:42 PM
-2hg happens from idle to redline when WOT

i need to find a better spot to T the boost gauge in.

I have mine hooked to a vacuum distribution block installed on the TB side of the plenum

2"-Hg from idle to redline sounds odd. Once the MS is running you can log MAP on a run and see what that tells you.



megasquirt came today and we are starting the wireing now
intercooler, bov, etc also arrived today

Good to hear about the progress.

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 12:46 PM
deff not getting spark. i pulled the coil ignition wire (the one that goes to the dizzy) and tested it for power.

i used my craftsmen power checker thing... where you put one end on ground and the other on power. if power comes through the lightbulb turns on. The light never turned on. so im getting now power to the coil is seems to be?

MS says my dizzy goes to 10degrees when i crank. the trigger offset is at 65, i tried playing with it but set it back to 65 because im sure it has nothing to do with coil power??

i get power to the test light when i have it on the positive coil wire.

but when i put the test light on the coil to dizzy ignition wire, i get no power.

the coil works fine when im on the other ecu.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 01:07 PM
with the stock ecu installed, the car runs fine and starts on a dime

we pulled the same coil to dizzy wire and put the test light on it and it DIDNT LIGHT UP.. yet the car runs on stock ecu.

so its safe to assume the coil is sending power to the dizzy.

we pulled a spark plug (with MS connected) and cranked and spark does not bounce from the plug to the metal we had it next to.

so it makes me want to think that sense i didnt set my trigger angle right that im not getting spark to the plugs.

i dont have LEDs so its hard to understand what the guide is saying.

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 02:14 PM
Alright. Set your trigger angle to 50-65 or so. I'd start about 65. Make sure your dizzy settings are "trigger return" which you've probably done already. You're not getting spark it sound like to me. You should get spark regardless of your dizzy trigger angle, timing etc. Pull the plug on the coil (not spark plug wire side). Turn your key on but don't start it and test it with a multimeter to see if you are getting 12V at any time TO the coil itself. It should get 12v then fall off after pump primes and injectors click. If you're not getting 12V ever then you have a problem there. I haven't seen the difference in the P-body wiring diagrams from the daytona but im assuming that the ASD relay still completes the injector circuit as well as the coil/plugs etc. Also does your pump prime when you turn the key? Also your MS doesn't have LED's on the body either? My MS3 doesn't so you'll have to wire in an LED if you want to setup your dizzy manually like Ryan explained. I had to do it this way. Basically get an LED and 470 ohm resistor and wire the resistor into the gray dizzy wire (from ms harness) and then wire the LED in. Should have a long and short leg (anode...cathode blah blah) basically Long side is positive short side negative. Positive should go to 12V source IE: where you're dizzy gets power from and the short side to the Gray wire after the resistor. Just "tap" into these wires as Ryan puts it and then you can proceed to set it up the way Ryan explained. It really didn't help me a whole lot to be honest but that is the way its done.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 02:21 PM
power to the coil positive drops off after pump primes. the test light shows this.

the test light never lights up when i put it on the coil to dizzy wire BUT it dosnt show up when the sbec is hooked up even though it starts

so maybe a multimeter is what i need.

ill mess with the trigger angle and make sure im set for trigger return.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

what should i have for angle between main and return degree

looks like i had it set for basic trigger and not trigger return

---------- Post added at 02:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

should i have rising edge or falling edge

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 02:22 PM
Edited above post BTW. So pump is priming which is good. Sounds like power to coil is there...maybe. You said you pulled a plug out with it still connected to spark plug wire and tried to crank to visually see spark?

---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

Basic Trigger can work too but go with Trigger return. Falling edge.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 02:30 PM
what should angle between main and return be? thats the only setting i need and ill try again

i also read your previous post again but ill have to read again in a second.. i caant focus right now

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 02:33 PM
I didn't even mess with that setting to be honest. What is yours set at now?

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 02:43 PM
spark A output pin was set at D14

i changed it to JS10 and it really wanted to start but it didnt. we are letting it sit (assuming its flooded)

trigger angle offset is at 65

angle between main and return 50

help?

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 02:46 PM
i believe either way it should start. Mine is set to JS10 as well and mine starts and runs no prob....just super rich. Move your trigger angle around some more. Try going down a little...then up a little. I went in increments of 2 or 3 until i found mine. You're obviously close.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 03:16 PM
it sounds like the setting i changed decides what pin has the ignition wired to it.

if that setting is wrong, i shouldnt get spark.

im trying to start now, ill report back

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

got it to start

had to have js10 on as "spark A output"

trigger angle offset is set at 70
angle between main and return is set at 50

it idles rough and backfires like a son of a gun

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Good job. sounds like you need to tune it but the worst is over....kind of. I'd get a timing light and check timing to see if it matches what TS is saying first. Maybe adjust your trigger angle a little more. as well.

Sundance 6g72
06-30-2011, 04:42 PM
ill have the timing light out tonight. never used one before

car can drive but if i pin the gas (i know, i shouldnt have done this) it runs WAY rich. like 10:1 afr and then bogs a ---- tone

im using 87turbodances VE table and EDS spark table along with EDs afr table. maybe i shouldnt have it like that?

i might invest in paying for tuner studio to get autotune

---------- Post added at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

and the awesome thing is, i have to go to work

i have no second car
noone to drive me

so i just swap back to my stock ecu, fire her right up and she still runs like a champ!

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

just paid for tunerstudio and megalog viewer. hopefully its worth it to have full versions

Irocelectric93
06-30-2011, 05:43 PM
I didn't get megalog viewer full version....however TS's full version is worth it for autotune alone.

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 12:15 AM
well it was midnight and i fired her up and had autotune going in tuner studio. It said "o2 out of range" while having a loud backfire every 7 seconds or so.

it was to late and people work in the morning so i decided to wait until tomorrow.

im thinking my timing might be an issue. 30degrees or more at idle. its idling at 1200rpms or so. thats alot of timing imo

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

87turbodance is using much lower timing than that at idle or even at 1300 rpms

EDs tune that i have has 25 degrees of timing at MIN rpms (like 500 or so)

i dont know why his is like this but could it be causing issues when im trying to start my tune

Irocelectric93
07-01-2011, 12:57 AM
Wow 30 degrees is ...quite a bit. Mine is about 15 degrees at idle. Not that mine is perfect by any means. Mine idles pretty well now actually minus my vac leak that i need to fix...i worked 16hrs today or i would have been tuning this evening. Oh well. My car idles a little high... about 1000rpms. Really it should be about 800.

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 01:10 AM
i dont have idle control right now :( so my idle is kind of whack and my iac is open too because i havnt disconnected it properly. wont start and hold an idle either unless i have the throttle screw screwed in alot

im going to try locking the timing at 10* and do what this link says http://www.boostedmiata.com/MS/msq/instructions/DIYPNP_Megasquirt_Installation_Instructions_TS.pdf

youl want to scroll down to where they start talking timine, skip the install crap

Ondonti
07-01-2011, 06:47 AM
Seems if you are going to touch up the timing with a light that all you need to do is put it where it belongs in the first place. The motor will run with crazy amounts of timing change in either direction. Get it on the right gears, put it in the middle, then fix it with the light.

My problem was the distributor signal being too weak, I probably should have minimized the wire length the signal had to travel, and tap the signal near the ecu, not the distributor to further reduce extra wiring (ran that resistor trick but it just completely killed the signal). I ditched the OEM tach. No more stock ecu so now I don't care. Does MS3 have a better tach output or is it still not right for our oem tachs?

You should be fine with 10-20 degrees of timing at idle. I would get your base timing perfect, then mess with the tables from there on to get things right.

I have the same Idle problem but probably worse.
What are the AFRs?

BTW, I think Ed's high timing at 500 rpms is meant for starting purposes. They have changed the startup timing methods constantly through out various firmware versions. My version has basically no option and I didn't want to have a column just for starting. I think this is why 87 sundance suggested at one point to run your base timing really high. I don't know if I ever figured out if my firmware version uses base timing or my spark map for starting. Some of the writeups are terribly vague, and the manual often only refers to a certain firmware which is not the same as whatever you have.

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 10:42 AM
what should i set the dizzy to when i use the light? i really have never done it before.


why does the crank have to be at 10degrees when im trying to put the dizzy at 10degrees and then finally having MS at 10degrees.

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

msg from ED about his spark table


I set spark advance by logging while I manually changed spark advance at idle. I then looked at MAP and found about where it peaked and backed it off a little from there. I put the peak value at lower rpm. The idea there is a "stall saver"...

Off peak power you often need more spark advance because the mixture is leaner and thus the flame front spreads slower so you need more advance to get the peak cylinder pressure at the right crank angle...

c2xejk
07-01-2011, 12:48 PM
BTW, I think Ed's high timing at 500 rpms is meant for starting purposes. They have changed the startup timing methods constantly through out various firmware versions. My version has basically no option and I didn't want to have a column just for starting. I think this is why 87 sundance suggested at one point to run your base timing really high. I don't know if I ever figured out if my firmware version uses base timing or my spark map for starting. Some of the writeups are terribly vague, and the manual often only refers to a certain firmware which is not the same as whatever you have.

I agree with making sure the timing is what it is supposed to be first.

I mention this in a PM to Sundance6g72, but it bears repeating here. I set idle spark advance based on what my engine liked best.

I set my idle timing by manually stepping the spark advance while logging. Then I found the point where vacuum was highest. I set that advance to 500 RPM and slightly lower to my idle RPM. This can take a couples steps since spark advance can effect engine RPM at idle...

The peak vacuum spark advance is set for 500 RPM instead of idle to act as a "stall saver". If engine rpms dip low, the increase in spark advance should help it return to normal idle. This tactic would probably work a little better if I set spark advance at idle a little lower...

I am still trying to get some dyno time to set the WOT spark advance numbers...

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 01:29 PM
im still confused on the whole settings the timing with the dizzy manually.

shouldnt the timing already be set right for the factory computer? and dosnt the dizzy send its advance number to the MS?

im afraid of messing with the dizzy and the timing light because i still want to switch back to my stock ecu when i need to without adverse effects. maybe someone can explain this to me in baby words?

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 02:50 PM
well im at a loss with tuning this thing

i have a buddy thats going to get me a timing light but i still need someone to explain to me how to use it and how to get 10btdc on the crank and such.

im going to try and load eds project (i think he has the same firmware as me) and see if it just works right because mine isnt working out at all. If it dosnt work ill have to wait and research some more.

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 03:21 PM
well when i went to Eds project and loaded that to the MS it started right up and ran fine so i thought. the rev was laggy but it idles consistently at 900rpms or so but the vacummes was at 18hg on the boost gauge.

i ran autotune but that seemed to make things worse, and turning off ego correction made things worse as well. im done until i get the timing light situation figured out.

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 04:29 PM
alos, EDs tune was setup for 25.6# injectors it said.. i changed that to 19#. i still ran WAY lean but it was not backfiring and the idle held its self

Force Fed Mopar
07-01-2011, 09:01 PM
You should be able to just point the light at the timing marker and turn the dizzy until it's at the right setting while running on the stock computer. I'd set it to whatever the factory setting is, I think it's 10 or 12 degrees? That should get the dizzy in the right spot to start from on the MS.

Of course I've never had an MS system so I could be nuts :D

Sundance 6g72
07-01-2011, 10:40 PM
Setting up the distributor trigger

In Tuner Studio you should setup the idle LED to indicate IRQ. This will make it so that he middle LED will light up whenever the MS tach input is on.
You need to set the dizzy up so that the middle led turns on at whatever trigger angle you choose. If you setup the tach input on MS the way that DiyAutotune says to do it, then the trigger will stay on (middle LED stay on) for 55 degrees for rising edge or 65 degrees for falling edge trigger.
I believe falling edge trigger is the best to use. But you might need to do some trial and error.

So you need to:

Rising edge trigger:

1) Set the crank shaft to 10 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1
2) Turn the dizzy backwards until the middle LED turns on (backwards from the #1 spark terminal in the dizzy cap)
3) Turn the dizzy very slowly forward until the led just turns off and then lock down the dizzy with the bolt.
3) Set the trigger angle in MS to 65

Falling edge:

1) Set the crank shaft to 10 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1
2) Turn the dizzy backwards until the middle LED turns off (backwards from the #1 spark terminal in the dizzy cap)
3) Turn the dizzy very slowly forward until the led just turns off and then lock down the dizzy with the bolt.
3) Set the trigger angle in MS to 75


4) Set the "Cranking timing" to trigger return
5) Set the cranking advance angle to 10 in MS
6) Set a "fixed angle" of 10
7)Verify that at 10 degrees BTDC the rotor is just about to leave the #1 terminal in the cap and at 60 BTDC degrees the rotor is just arriving at the #1 terminal in the cap
8) Get the car to start
9) Verify that you have a 10 BTDC with a timing light with the engine running. Adjust the dizzy to achieve 10 degrees if needed
9) Set the fixed angle back to -10

confused

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

im almost 100% sure my o2 sensor bung has a leak. fixing that before i proceed. Should have it welded up good tonight.

Sundance 6g72
07-02-2011, 01:48 PM
ordering from FWD from now on when possible

my TU clutch got here about a month or more ago. but my fuel pump has yet to show up.... i called them last week and they didnt know what was going on..

cindy seems to be on top of everything.. idk why i didnt order from her in the first place

Force Fed Mopar
07-02-2011, 01:58 PM
ordering from FWD from now on when possible

my TU clutch got here about a month or more ago. but my fuel pump has yet to show up.... i called them last week and they didnt know what was going on..

cindy seems to be on top of everything.. idk why i didnt order from her in the first place

They both have problems w/ shipping from time to time. Many people have complained about FWD's slow shipping too ;)

Sundance 6g72
07-02-2011, 04:22 PM
well as of now, fwd has 0 stikes and TU has 1.

fwd called me to follow up on an order of mine to make sure that i was ordering what i really needed.. they also (as far as i know) stock their own parts while TU has "suppliers" ship them to their own customers. So their fuel pump supplier is responsible for me not getting my fuel pump. wth

Irocelectric93
07-02-2011, 05:08 PM
should have got it from forward motion

Force Fed Mopar
07-02-2011, 05:08 PM
What pump are you getting? If I were you, I'd get a Deatschwerks or Jay Racing pump. 300 lph and multi-fuel compatibility.

Sundance 6g72
07-02-2011, 10:07 PM
cheep yet proven 255 walbro


should have got it from forward motion

i like ordering online.. i always thought i had to call in. i do alot of my ordering at night.. ill check there site next time though

bond_bbs
07-02-2011, 11:26 PM
Funny you say that - I'm still awaiting my Flywheel from TU. Been over a month now. I think it's because - at least in my case - TU doesn't ship themselves, they have many items drop shopped directly from the manufacturers / suppliers.

Ondonti
07-03-2011, 03:21 AM
I think only Foward motion direct ships the Walbros. Walbros are able to run ethanol just fine. Jay Racing Pumps are guaranteed to be made in China btw. Walbro, it depends who you buy from. Drop shipped fuel pumps bother me more because the shipper could be screwing you, OR the person they get their pumps from.

I don't like the idea of buying a drop shipped item, not one bit. On the shelf, yay.

Force Fed Mopar
07-03-2011, 10:56 AM
I think only Foward motion direct ships the Walbros. Walbros are able to run ethanol just fine. Jay Racing Pumps are guaranteed to be made in China btw. Walbro, it depends who you buy from. Drop shipped fuel pumps bother me more because the shipper could be screwing you, OR the person they get their pumps from.

I don't like the idea of buying a drop shipped item, not one bit. On the shelf, yay.

That's good to know on the Walbro. Bad to know about Jay Racing though :) You got proof of that? I am planning on a Deatshwerks if the Wally goes out.

Sundance 6g72
07-03-2011, 01:22 PM
I think only Foward motion direct ships the Walbros. Walbros are able to run ethanol just fine. Jay Racing Pumps are guaranteed to be made in China btw. Walbro, it depends who you buy from. Drop shipped fuel pumps bother me more because the shipper could be screwing you, OR the person they get their pumps from.

I don't like the idea of buying a drop shipped item, not one bit. On the shelf, yay.


thats what im saying.. just seems scetchy



anywyas. almost finished rewiring my Megasquirt. I just need to get the injectors wired in. The approach im taking this time will have the MS harness wired into the stock harness (no adapter)

the delema is that megasquirt has 2 injector drivers while a 93 ecu has 6. So when i wire three injectors together for the MS.. that will piss off the stock ecu. It makes much more sense when i have a picture drawn up.. i might do that to help explain what im taking about.

Irocelectric93
07-03-2011, 06:03 PM
Yeah the 92-93 ecu is sequential injection.

RoadWarrior222
07-03-2011, 06:32 PM
can probably figure out something with a couple of relays or some switches.

Sundance 6g72
07-03-2011, 11:48 PM
ended up using a plug connector.

i wired the sequential side to the connector and then i wired the other connector with 3 wires to the MS. So i can disconnect the MS fuel injection wires when im not using MS and that way the sbec dosnt have its fuel injector wires tied together when its in use.

should work alright

Ondonti
07-04-2011, 04:18 AM
That's good to know on the Walbro. Bad to know about Jay Racing though :) You got proof of that? I am planning on a Deatshwerks if the Wally goes out.
If the pump is named after a person and does not carry a real brand, its fake. Who do you think just happens to build custom tiny fuel pumps that look like walbros.....China. I have read about a shop that swapped to the 300lph pump and made NO hp gains (not able to flow more fuel) and at super high pressure, lost fuel. That was compared to a real walbro. The flow charts for that pump always seem better but all I have seen are made up charts, not by someone I trust. Also, tons of pressure at zero psi...who cares!. Those 300lph pumps are supposed to be quieter, but don't pretend you are buying something made in america, or getting your money's worth.

I have seen a drop shipped fake from one of our vendors (I borrowed it and almost installed it).

Sundance 6g72
07-04-2011, 11:27 AM
ended up using a plug connector.<br><br>i wired the sequential side to the connector and then i wired the other connector with 3 wires to the MS.&nbsp; So i can disconnect the MS fuel injection wires when im not using MS and that way the sbec dosnt have its fuel injector wires tied together when its in use. <br><br>should work alright


edit: dont know why it posted funny?


anyways.. ill call TU again tomorrow cuz they still havnt gotten back to me. wtf. im about to cancel my order and buy from cindy

Irocelectric93
07-04-2011, 03:42 PM
Chris has always been good for me, but Cindy has been as well for the most part. Honestly when i was building my coilovers she was hard to track down and never called me back etc however....I know shes a busy person running a business but i just felt like since she didn't have the parts i wanted or wasn't sure what i needed she didn't care. Rich Bryant on here helped me out a ton when i bought his camber plates (which are awesome btw). Anyway if i were you id get a disc from clutchnet and a PP from cindy. 6-puck clutchnet disc and Cindy's DD PP FTW from what Cory Hedin said when he had it in his R/t. Personally I might end up going with Chris' purple 4-puck...I've seen what DJ's car can do with it and I'm pretty much sold....ALTHOUGH Rob has an SRT-4 ACT 6-puck working in his car and I want to say Carroll has one as well....and they absolutely love it. Decisions....decisions.

Force Fed Mopar
07-04-2011, 08:45 PM
I won't buy another puck clutch for DD.

Irocelectric93
07-04-2011, 09:21 PM
I know Cory said his clutch felt fine to drive "semi-daily" from what i remember. Brent would know more than me. Personally i have a clutchmasters stage 3 in my srt-4 and its perfect for a DD but it also doesn't hold the power of a 6 puck ACT. My srt-4 isn't 400hp either though. I probably wouldn't put a puck clutch in a DD myself either to be honest.

RoadWarrior222
07-04-2011, 09:25 PM
It's time to invent the hydraulic clutch with a boost referenced accumulator/booster .... like brake vacuum assist only backwards.

Sundance 6g72
07-04-2011, 09:27 PM
clutch is already here, its a TU 6puck with "heavy duty" pressure plate

should hold the power i want

ive driven a 6puck turbo laser and it wasnt HORRID but deff not preferable for a DD.

Sundance 6g72
07-04-2011, 10:03 PM
tuner studio keeps freezing on me


great

Sundance 6g72
07-05-2011, 02:41 AM
i had my MSII wired and the car was starting.. it didnt run the best but it started

my original wiring job was a poor one ( i made a 60pin adapter and the pins liked to fall out)

this adapter plugged into my stock engine harness (i simply unplugged the harness from my stock ecu and plugged it into my MS harness with my adapter.)

this time i wired the MS harness directly into my factory harness. I figured as long as my stock ecu was unplugged while im using megasquirt, all would be good. I guess i was wrong

When i have megasquirt turned on, i get power and i get the same readings from my coolant temp and intake temp sensors. so these sensors are wired correctly. I get a good reading from my TPS as well. It calibrated just fine. My wideband also works but this should t effect my starting.

my ignition is a single coil with a distributor. When i turn the key to the on position, my coil gets power and then cuts off (just like it always did, this was verified by my test light)

the injectors do the same thing, they do their priming pulse (verified by my test light, and i can hear it)

now when i crank the engine, i dont get spark or fuel. Tuner studio reads a fuel pulse width of 0ms while cranking and 0 ignition advance.

i know i have the distributor wired correctly. The power wire for the distributor is correct because the car runs with the stock ecu just fine. The grey wire (or white wire with the shielding around it for the dizzy) LOOKS to be correct. i dont see how it couldnt be. I have it pliced directly into the same wire it was before when the car started.

So im getting no fuel or spark when cranking even though i have power to the injectors and coil. Not sure how im supposed to verify the dizzy.. i know it gets power because the car runs all day long.

hope this all made sense

Irocelectric93
07-05-2011, 11:38 AM
Have you verified that you not getting fuel while cranking? Pull a fuel line and turn it over a little bit and see if you get fuel out the line....I'd put a can or something to catch the fuel in place. If you aren't getting fuel while cranking then obviously theres an issue. Why did you decide against the 60 pin harness? Seemed like a good idea to me.

Sundance 6g72
07-05-2011, 03:21 PM
it was a great idea but the pins fell out easily. It got to the point where to many fell out and i didnt trust it.


I cant remember but i want to say i WASNT getting an rpm signal while cranking

this makes sense, i get injectors pulse when priming, i hear the pump turn on, and the coil makes the test light flash once just like it should. But then when i crank, the MS dosnt know im cranking and therefor dosnt fire anything?


the weird thing is, this is what happened the first time around and i fixed it by switching my 'spark a output pin" to js10. idk why this worked because when i switched it back to the default setting the car still started.


ill look into it later. i have an oil change to get to

Sundance 6g72
07-05-2011, 07:37 PM
i came home to find out a friend of mine passed away last night. there wont be any working on the MS tonight. Ill keep you guys updated when i start to work on it again.

Sundance 6g72
07-11-2011, 05:23 PM
Re: dosnt start AFTER rewire. what did i do wrong (http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=40246&p=237936#p237936) http://www.msefi.com/styles/prosilver/imageset/icon_post_target.gif (http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=237936#p237936)by firefoxx04 (http://www.msefi.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=29489) on Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:22 pm
Okay so i did a few tests


first test went like so. I had the MS plugged in and stock ecu unplugged

i put a test light on the spliced joint and grounded it to the battery.. and of course when i crank, i get no light.

i then unhooked MS and plugged my stock ecu in.. had the test light still on... cranked the engine and it DIDNT START!!! (weird because the car starts on a dime 100% of the time)

i remove the test light (effectively acting as a ground to the battery) and then the car starts up. this makes me want to think that when my stock ecu is unplugged and MS is plugged in that something is acting as a ground and not letting the current get to my MS

my pin24ignition wire for the MS is spliced into the stock ignition wire coming form my dizzy (wire normally goes to the stock ecu but i figured that sense the stock ecu is unplugged and the MS is plugged in, the wire would send its signal to the MS. (remember, the car runs FINE everyday on the stock ecu with MS unplugged.)


hope that made sense! ill get back at the car later, i need to do a few errands

Sundance 6g72
07-11-2011, 07:47 PM
got my tach signal corrected.. should have the car started in a few min. just need to get the timing right if it does start and i should be able to drive.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 12:38 AM
trigger angle of 78 (or 79) cant remember

fired her up and it idled high just like usual. No backfiring today.. drove around on fixed 12 timing and it was fun but the real fun started when i loaded eds spark table. im using his Actual project as well.

i had autotune running and it was working great.. 130mph @ 12.4afr

i accidently closed tunerstudio before burning the changes.. i reloaded it and thought i burned them but im not sure. now the afr at wot is 11 (leanest) and 10 (richest) not sure what happend. ran autotune again and it didnt want to do anything

i can daily drive it though.. for some reason its way rich when cruising (it was 14.7 while autotuning the first time..

here are some datalogs (zip file, datalogs.zip)

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20541349/datalogs.zip

one of them is my idle.. it likes to jump from 16.5 lean to 12.5 rich or something like that. rpms also change as it jumps around. it was idling fine when i first started the car.

the other is me doing some normal (sort of normal.. i reved higher than i normally do) driving on the street

the third is a somewhat hard run (never hitting the limiter) showing how rich i am.. it gets in the 10s alot. autotune WAS working but seems to not want to change this. ill try a different VE table tomorrow and see what happens.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 01:06 AM
timing isnt spot on either... its all by ear.. could be to high could be to low. still need to get the timing light out.

Ondonti
07-12-2011, 03:22 AM
Nothing wrong with some manual adjustment.
Kyle just got his 6262 turbo 3.0 running on MS3 and drove it around the block.

My first couple times driving on megasquirt the car was gulping gasoline down and killing mileage. Get it closer by hand then worry about autotune.
Its okay to be lean as long as its not @ WOT. As long as WOT is safe, go to town on everything else.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 09:37 AM
well my first pull to very high speeds scared me (had autotune running)

i was bouncing from 13.2 - 13.8 WOT at high rpm... so i simply let off the gas completely, counted to 3 and mashed it again.. then my afr was 12.4 on the dot all the way to 130mph. Autotune WAS working... then i forgot to save the changes and then for some reason im super rich. im going to nail the timing down tonight before i mess with the tune again.

87turbodance
07-12-2011, 01:07 PM
Keep an eye on your IAT temperatures. If the sensor picks up heat from other components under your hood it will throw off your tune. It gets really annoying when your AFR is different all the time with the same tune. It is typical to lean out when sitting at a traffic light and then it will richen up as the sensor cools off while your moving. This is why I typically put the sensor at the entrance to the air filter, as far away from hot parts as possible (on an N/A car). If you have your sensor screwed into the end of your plenum it might be giving you heat soak issues.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 01:47 PM
i have mine right before the TB and its poked into a rubber intake hose. that could be it.. its giving WACKY readings. when i first started it up it said 120 degrees and when i was warmed up it was reading 50ish degrees on a 70 degree day

i have a GOOD sensor i bought from diy but it needs to be welded into the intake pipe.. my current one is just a junkyard gm sensor that im using until im boosted.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 02:10 PM
i dont think the temp sensor is to blame right now

even if the reading is wrong, its still sitting at one spot once the car warms up....

when the car was warming up (coolant temp below 100 f) the intake temp sensor was giving a reallly high reading and the car idled really really well. once its warm and i run it down the road a few times it will start doing the weird pulsing of the injectors giving a wacky afr at idle.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 09:40 PM
tried a new IAT that i got from DIY and now i get a REAL intake temp reading but the idle pulsing issue is still the same

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 11:07 PM
i dont run super rich anymore...


i changed all the idle spark values to 12* and now it idles smooth (high, due to no idle control) but it does idle smooth.

i need to get the timing light out so i can actually run eds spark table without guessing my timing and trigger angle

Vigo
07-12-2011, 11:19 PM
ts giving WACKY readings. when i first started it up it said 120 degrees and when i was warmed up it was reading 50ish degrees on a 70 degree day

Sounds like the difference between an NTC and a PTC thermistor.. i.e. wrong kind of sensor. Were they the same part number?

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 11:44 PM
not sure

pulled the sensor from a sunfire and used the preset "GM" settings and they didnt work to well

the diy sensor is working great though and is calibrated correctly.

87turbodance
07-13-2011, 12:18 AM
I pulled a plastic push in type sensor from some GM vehicle and it works well for me. Maybe a genuine Quality sensor would work better for me.

For your 0 pw problem, turn off your over-run fuel cut. MS thinks that you're downshifting and engine braking so MS is cutting fuel whenever the throttle is closed, map is lower than 40Kpa the engine is warm and the engine is spinning faster then 1500 rpm. The solution is to fix your idle valve. Do you have the proper valve installed in your TB? I remember hearing that you can't mix and match valves somewhere.

Ondonti
07-13-2011, 05:32 AM
are you 100% sure you didn't lose ed's tune when you shut things down?

I don't use AIT

Sundance 6g72
07-13-2011, 09:39 AM
ryan, thanks for looking over my LOG and tune.. ill try your setting in a second



are you 100% sure you didn't lose ed's tune when you shut things down?

I don't use AIT

why not use it? i thought you had to use it.

i have only ever used EDs tune but i did use autotune on it and had ego control on. For some reason it has went from having a great tune (14.7 at cruise, 12.4 when WOT) and now it seems to be lean (14.7 at cruise and STILL 14s when wide open.. i was doing 100mph WOT in the `14!!)

now that i think about it, the wot lean issue is with Ryans VE table on eds tune. not sure why its that lean but ill work it. first thing is fixing the idle problem and ryans fix is promising.

RoadWarrior222
07-13-2011, 12:10 PM
I would suspect something wrong with the TPS calibration then if it does a closed loop O2 scheme and doesn't go open loop when you go full throttle.... or maybe your TPS is a bit marginal.

Sundance 6g72
07-13-2011, 03:40 PM
I would suspect something wrong with the TPS calibration then if it does a closed loop O2 scheme and doesn't go open loop when you go full throttle.... or maybe your TPS is a bit marginal.

its megasquirt. it dosnt have a true open loop. BUT its working great now and i cant complane much. autotune is setting the AFR where it needs to be for cruise and WOT.

new working IAT sensor and the settings ryan told me to adjust fixed everything


the problem was that my idle was sitting at 1500 (idle valve stuck open and im lazy)
the car went into fuel cut overrun and cuts fuel when its above 1500 so it would drop and then rise repeatedly because it thought i was engine breaking (downshifting with no TPS signal)

so changing the overrun min rpm to 2000 fixed it!

now i need to find time to use the timing light

Ondonti
07-13-2011, 04:08 PM
You don't have to run the IAT. I avoided installing one because of how much methanol I spray. I didn't know how it would react to 2500cc's of methanol being sprayed a foot before the sensor. The weird gm sensor that I have in a box somewhere is a little plastic cage which looks to me like methanol would go up inside and try to kill it.

Sundance 6g72
07-13-2011, 06:34 PM
lol that makes sense


i unplugged mine and i still get ghetto readings in my IAT.. not sure WHy

i dont know what wires would be crosstalking with it but it had to have some noise

the new sensor seems to be doing much better

Sundance 6g72
07-13-2011, 06:59 PM
buying a different laptop tomorrow. my current one is kind of messed up

-windows ME
-no battery
-kinda slow
-FOR SOME REASON the number keys are going out.

i tried to set my limiter from 2500 to 6500 and i couldnt do it.. i had to settle for 5222. kind of scared me on a highway pull when 3rd stopped way before it was supposed to and all i could hear was pop pop pop of the spark/fuel cut.!!!

new lappy will be faster, windows xp, battery, working keyboard.


o yeah, enter dosnt work anymore on the current one... good thing the tune is drivable right now

RoadWarrior222
07-13-2011, 07:30 PM
I would suspect the number keys are going out from all the forehead slamming against keyboard action resulting during 12 years using ME.

Sundance 6g72
07-13-2011, 11:16 PM
I would suspect the number keys are going out from all the forehead slamming against keyboard action resulting during 12 years using ME.

lol... i wouldnt be surprised.

my dad got it for free from his work for me so i cant complain that much

Ondonti
07-14-2011, 04:56 AM
Hah, my old dedicated car laptop has Windows 98 on it, and Bansheenut knocked if off the top of the Duster at the dyno (thanks to it having an old battery and requiring a cord). All the screws exploded out of it but the thing still works. The problem was that you never knew when the laptop might die, and I could never turn off the ignition. Even hitting the starter could kill the laptop. I lost SO MANY incredibly important datalogs over the years. Almost always the most important ones.

RoadWarrior222
07-14-2011, 09:29 AM
But 98SE is pure pwnage next to ME :D

How fast do you need for logging anyhoo? I've got a choice of 3 ~200mhz win 98 laptops that seem like they'd be a tad slow, and a better 1ghz PIII machine with XP that still seems too good to get greasy, knock around or forget in the car. I bought a couple of palmpilots too but I think Rob gave up on them :banghead:

Kinda wanted to find something around 500mhz that was a decent model in the day, with a good rep, like a SatPro or a Thinkpad.

Sundance 6g72
07-14-2011, 01:07 PM
did some logging and let Megalog viewer make changes for me. seems to work pretty good.

bond_bbs
07-14-2011, 01:46 PM
But 98SE is pure pwnage next to ME :D

How fast do you need for logging anyhoo? I've got a choice of 3 ~200mhz win 98 laptops that seem like they'd be a tad slow, and a better 1ghz PIII machine with XP that still seems too good to get greasy, knock around or forget in the car. I bought a couple of palmpilots too but I think Rob gave up on them :banghead:

Kinda wanted to find something around 500mhz that was a decent model in the day, with a good rep, like a SatPro or a Thinkpad.

Find an Asus EEE or other 10" netbook - can be had for like $200 - $250 brand new (much less used!). If it comes with Linux, just build a XP USB install disk. My 1st gen EEE (7") is 8gb SSD, 1.4ghz, and would be perfect for something like that. I say grab a 10" though for a little bit more screen real estate.

RoadWarrior222
07-14-2011, 02:13 PM
I'd rather have a "real" serial port though.

Sundance 6g72
07-14-2011, 02:48 PM
having an SSD hard drive would make tuning a dream!

im using a usb to serial and it works great.. no issues.

also, if it came with linux, id just keep it with that and run tuner studio for linux. linux is lighter weight than windows should things should go a little faster

bond_bbs
07-14-2011, 03:05 PM
The linux distro my Eee used (Xandros) is quick, but XP only takes ~15 seconds to boot to desktop, and is very responsive.

Sundance 6g72
07-14-2011, 03:08 PM
that damn ssd ;)

Sundance 6g72
07-14-2011, 03:33 PM
fixed my laptop

it still has windows ME :( but the keyboard works 100% now. if anyone has any ideas on how to get ubuntu or windows xp loaded on this thing, plz let me know!

it cant boot to usb and has no cd drive :FAIL:

it gets the job done but it is SLOWer than the overclocked quad core desktop im used to.

RoadWarrior222
07-14-2011, 05:08 PM
Does it still have a floppy? You might find a linux bootfloppy image that will get it far enough to pull files off USB or HDD... though you can also use loadlin from a command line and point it to a kernal image... used to need to be a fat32 partition below 512mb, but that might have been how long ago I last messed with it.

bond_bbs
07-15-2011, 12:04 AM
Does it still have a floppy? You might find a linux bootfloppy image that will get it far enough to pull files off USB or HDD... though you can also use loadlin from a command line and point it to a kernal image... used to need to be a fat32 partition below 512mb, but that might have been how long ago I last messed with it.

Some USB boot loaders and image loaders work the same way - I know for my XP install USB, the drive itself had to be less than 1gb, and the image partition the program made was only 512mb.


A simple solution that has worked for me in the past - get a Windows XP boot floppy, and use it to boot into dos mode. Put the Windows XP disk onto a small FAT32 formatted USB drive. Once in boot mode, you can run setup.exe from the usb drive. Providing the USB controller on the laptop is a standardized controller that the XP installer has the drivers for, everything should be good.

This link has the download links for the XP install floppies.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310994
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310994)

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 01:28 AM
Does it still have a floppy? You might find a linux bootfloppy image that will get it far enough to pull files off USB or HDD... though you can also use loadlin from a command line and point it to a kernal image... used to need to be a fat32 partition below 512mb, but that might have been how long ago I last messed with it.

the only thing i can boot from is the harddrive and the network.. i have failed to boot to the network so i guess if i got crafty i could take the harddrive out of the laptop and put it in my desktop.. install a linux boot loader onto it and then have the lappy boot to that and get me into my usb ubuntu flash drive and finally partition the drive to fit linux onto the tiny little drive

but honestly, im not that worried about it.. it works 90% of the time just fine.

---------- Post added at 01:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------


Some USB boot loaders and image loaders work the same way - I know for my XP install USB, the drive itself had to be less than 1gb, and the image partition the program made was only 512mb.


A simple solution that has worked for me in the past - get a Windows XP boot floppy, and use it to boot into dos mode. Put the Windows XP disk onto a small FAT32 formatted USB drive. Once in boot mode, you can run setup.exe from the usb drive. Providing the USB controller on the laptop is a standardized controller that the XP installer has the drivers for, everything should be good.

This link has the download links for the XP install floppies.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310994
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310994)

lol, i litteraly have all the floppys already sitting in my desk. the lappy dosnt have a flopppy drive though :(

Ondonti
07-15-2011, 04:27 AM
I thought MS3 had a USB port?

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 06:45 AM
im running msII

but that wouldnt solve my issue of booting my laptop to a usb drive in order to load windows xp or ubuntu.


brent, could you take a second when your not busy to post up your turbo tune in that thread i made earlier. it would be nice to have somewhere to start when im boosted. Unless you have something against that

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 02:35 PM
did a little cruising tuning today. 35mph/45mph and under is basically set for 16:1 afr !!!! i rarely go under 14.5 when getting up to cruising speed. i should see a mpg increase i hope. i have gotten 100 miles out of a little less than half a tank and some of that was full blast bat out of hell driving on the highway or it was cruising around town.

id say 5gal got me around 22mpg.. not bad for alot of spirited driving

Sundance 6g72
07-16-2011, 01:26 AM
finished porting and polishing my new throttle body tonight.. and by porting and polishing i mean i really just cleaned it up a little bit and the inside is nice and shiny. also trimmed down the throttle blade bolts. Anyone have any hints as to how i can remove the plug from so i can access the throttle stop bolt? cant remember how i did it to my other TB.

also, im loving megasquirt so much. so satisfying. That spark advance jump in the mid rpms at half throttle must really do wonders because third gear never pulled that hard at 35mph with like 60% throttle.

Ondonti
07-16-2011, 03:57 AM
Either use a flathead screwdriver and smash it around or any other way you can think to loosen it up. I don't know of a smart way to do it, just bad ways to do it :)

I don't have a place to upload files and I can't open my files right now. Harddrive has been replaced twice and formatted a few times the last few months. Go DELL!
My VE map really has no work into it and my spark map is not compatible with pump gas. My VE map is actually on photobucket.

This map not what is on the car right now, but its close. My VE's are still over 100% in boost. Remember this is a high elevation map so my cutoffs are different. I also only devoted 4 bins to n/a tuning.
I was testing out the old auto tune and it made weird changes.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Megasquirt/Tables/VEComparisonafterspinningRodonMulle.jpg

Ondonti
07-17-2011, 08:55 PM
Did you have any results to share from upping our WOT timing?

Sundance 6g72
07-17-2011, 11:46 PM
ehh nothing i could really feel but i didnt have much time to check it out.


would it be safe to go wide open with a friend in the car and have them change the timing to 45* from 31* while in the upper rpms? i would deff feel it if it gives me a gain.




the update i do have is that MS gives me amazing mpg and is very reliable. I had a paintball tournament today (for those who dont know, this is a big part of my life and i need a car to get me there reliably)

car started fine in the morning, got me through my 45min drive without a hickup and got me home with no issues. All with some crazy mpg.. started on a full tank and after getting there i still had a full tank. its like a 40min drive or so. i usually use a 1/4 tank and this time i deff used less than that. ave afr was 15.3 - 16.1 when cruising.

i am so satisfied with my MS

Sundance 6g72
07-17-2011, 11:56 PM
i dont really want to push my timing too far unless you guys think its safe.. im still off on the trigger angle (still no timing light GFHGHTEAER) so ms might think im at 20* when im really at 22* or so. im sure its not off by much though because the car drives great but you never know

Force Fed Mopar
07-18-2011, 12:31 AM
I would fix that first then.

Ondonti
07-18-2011, 12:39 AM
Get your timing perfect. Then there will be nothing dangerous about 40 degrees in the uppers. More as rpms increase.

Sundance 6g72
07-18-2011, 11:27 AM
ill see if i can do it today... friend with the timing light gets out of work around 3ish i think and i dont work today so it should work out.

Sundance 6g72
07-18-2011, 10:38 PM
okay fixed the timing. trigger angle of 74.4

i was rollin around on 78 so it wasnt that far off

we did a wot pull in 4th to 120 and then upped 4000-5000rpm timing from 40 to 45 degrees and then upped 5000-6000 to 55 degrees (was 40*)

we all agreed that it hit 120 faster than before. it also felt healthy as well.

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 01:45 AM
i lied, that 55* is really 50*

im not sure how much further i should go

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 02:26 AM
i cant find mopar 3.0's timing table.

Ondonti
07-19-2011, 03:11 AM
i would leave it like that for now.

He has 29.8 degrees from 2300 all the way to 7500. That must be with 12 degrees base timing.
I am sure he ran premium fuel, but remember he had 10:1 compression so he needed less timing then stock.
I had to install open office just to get that info for you out of his table :P
Edit:
Actually that was his 200kpa line. His 100kpa line is 35.8 from 2500 to 7500. Thats 47.8 degrees total.

87turbodance
07-19-2011, 08:11 AM
Mopar3.0 used my timing map. The map I gave him had timing all in by 2500 rpm with a max of 44 degrees if I remember correctly.

He may have changed this but the last time him and I discussed it he was using my numbers which were basically an educated guess. (and still are).

I assume we are talking about when he was running MS1?

If so, his info should be total timing not plus base timing.

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 11:01 AM
so did i take it to far or what?? the car "felt" great and i kind of want to push it further with 93 octane

bond_bbs
07-19-2011, 01:37 PM
Not sure when you're planning on boosting, but if it's soon - why push the for serious timing tunage? You're just going to have to pull it back drastically for tuning in boost, and what you get in the way of timing now is no indication of the timing you'll run in boost.

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 02:18 PM
thats a good point. Once my heads are rebuilt (waiting on valve spring compressor from a friend) ill throw the turbo setup on

i plan on pulling the motor, swapping my rebuilt heads on, doing the timing belt, water pump, new clutch, turbo, crossover, downpipe, injectors and anything else that is required for the turbo. i have "all" that parts (i saw that cuz im sure i missed something)

so i guess i should be asking what the max timing is that i should run for 8psi. i know 8psi on one turbo might be different for another but there has to be a starting point?

Force Fed Mopar
07-19-2011, 02:25 PM
If it pulls harder and doesn't knock, then it isn't too much :) Play around with it, bump it up some more if it likes it, but keep an eye out for knock.

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 02:54 PM
im not sure what i need to look for though.. never heard a car knock from too much timing advance.. but as stated above, whats the point when im going to be force feeding 8psi into it

Ondonti
07-20-2011, 04:24 AM
Practice messing with it before the consequences = boom boom motor.

87, I am pretty sure he used your format for timing but used base timing plus indicate timing because he told me he went crazy high timing.

Force Fed Mopar
07-20-2011, 06:44 AM
Practice messing with it before the consequences = boom boom motor.



I concur :)

Ondonti
07-20-2011, 06:58 AM
Mopar3.0 doesn't remember what the base timing was but that he did have an expletive load of timing.

Sundance 6g72
07-20-2011, 09:37 AM
Practice messing with it before the consequences = boom boom motor.

87, I am pretty sure he used your format for timing but used base timing plus indicate timing because he told me he went crazy high timing.

tuner studio was set for 50 degrees timing at 5000rpms and higher. last night i went even further but didnt feel much power increase so i backed it down a bunch but im just going to import EDs table again (alot less timing up top but very aggressive during low load situations)

i did what ed said for setting the timing.. its the only thing that made sense in my head.

-set fixed timing of 10 in tunerstudio
-shoot the timing light and it gave me a reading of bellow 10degrees
-lower trigger angle until timing light reads 10* on the degree scales
-ended up with 74.4 trigger angle.

is 50* really that crazy of a number for NA?? ED did have it set at 31 for a reason i guess.


im not sure what you mean by base timing. When MS was sending only 10*, i read 10 with the timing light. when i switched back to the table it gave a super weird reading because my idle was at like 22* or something and thats obviously not going to register on the timing light

i guess im missing something here.

Force Fed Mopar
07-20-2011, 12:27 PM
Base timing is essentially how much timing you set by turning the distributor, w/o any other advance from anything.

I don't think 50 is that odd for an NA. Every engine design is different, so I dunno what the norm is for a 3.0. I do know that the old Slant 6's like to cruise w/ around 54* total. I think the V8's are like that also, I know at WOT on old small/big block Mopar you want around 34-36*, and since the vacuum advance typically adds around 15-20*...

On my 2.2 Daytona, cruising at 50mph I see about 33 degrees on the scanner (total). So really you just play with it till you find what works for your engine. Ported heads like different timing than stock, different compressions like different timing etc.

c2xejk
07-20-2011, 12:53 PM
is 50* really that crazy of a number for NA?? ED did have it set at 31 for a reason i guess.

I am just starting my dyno testing so anything I say right now, I can reverse on...

I was having problems getting the RPM signal to the dyno computer. Fiddled with it for a while before I gave up and collected some data without RPM info (and thus torque.) I did a pull with the table I gave you (31 or 32 degrees during WOT) and then did a pull with timing at 38 degrees for WOT. Maybe a 0.6 hp increase in peak hp. There was a gain in post peak hp hp. So there is gain in more advance, but not till very high RPM. (>6200 RPM based on looking at the MS log file and making an educated guess.)

Being clear, this is what happened on my engine and increasing spark advance on a different configuration could well yield different results... Some of the differences include: stage 2 heads, ported runners, custom plenum, different spark plugs, etc.

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------


Base timing is essentially how much timing you set by turning the distributor, w/o any other advance from anything.

I don't think 50 is that odd for an NA. Every engine design is different, so I dunno what the norm is for a 3.0. I do know that the old Slant 6's like to cruise w/ around 54* total.

Worth noting for those that are not aware, that at part throttle you often need more advance because the mixture is leaner and thus the flame front propgates slower...

Monday night I was talking to a friend that has done spark calibrations professionally (for an OEM) and he refreshed my memory on several details...

Ed Kelly

87turbodance
07-20-2011, 03:37 PM
..

Monday night I was talking to a friend that has done spark calibrations professionally (for an OEM) and he refreshed my memory on several details...

Ed Kelly

Is this info that you wish to keep private or would you be willing to share some of your discussion?

c2xejk
07-20-2011, 04:36 PM
I can share most of it. Hopefully I can do what he said justice.

Probably the most important thing was his analogy of spark advance to riding a bike.

On a bike there is an optimal angle to push on the pedal the hardest. Likewise in an engine there is an ideal crank angle for the in cylinder pressure to peak. The exact angle depends on engine geometry and can be calculated. Generally it is 5-15 degrees ATDC (After Top Dead Center.)

Too early is like pressing on the bike pedal when it is straight up. Too late and you are chasing the pedal down... With the idea in mind there is a "ideal" angle the goal is then to figure out when to light off the AF mixture so cylinder pressure peaks at that angle. Unfortunately the light off angle (Spark Advance) changes depending on a variety of factors (engine speed, A/F ratio, air in the cylinder, etc.)

So the "easiest" way to determine spark advance is by experimentation. OEMs do it by running spark hooks. This is where you hold the engine at fixed operating point (MAP and RPM) and vary the spark advance and record the torque (this is done with non-knocking fuel.) When the spark advance is graphed on the x axis and torque on the y axis it forms a hook shape. ie. there is a spark advance that generates maximum torque for that specific operating point.

If you took all those peak points you would have an "ideal" spark advance table. However, most engines are "knock limited." That means running real world fuel the "ideal" table would have too much advance. So then you have to determine the knock limits of the engine on real fuel under all conditions... Engineers usually throw in a safety margin. That is why you can generally advance timing a few degrees, not have knock and make more power.

He also said some of the same things I have mentioned before.

-More advance is needed at part throttle and lean mixtures.
-Changing a camshaft can throw off you spark hooks and your "safe" spark advance table.
-You want to run the minimum spark advance that achieves max torque.

That covers most of the relavent stuff. We spent some time discussing how I might be able to check spark advance for the non-WOT table points, but didn't come to anything that I have much confidence in yet. Best answer would be to start with the stock table...

For those that are curious I plan on upping the octane level of the fuel I am running for the remainder of the spark advance testing. Then I plan on running a "knock detector" to see if I can hear any issues on the 87 Octane fuel I have been running.

I have a little more work to do on the VE tables. I just re-cal'd my wide-band and noticed that there are a few "lean" spots that I need to address.

Feel free to ask any questions you have. If I can't answer them, I will try and pass them along to get a more definitive answer.

Ed Kelly

Sundance 6g72
07-20-2011, 06:51 PM
Awesome postIs there a point where you can run to much advance causing a loss in power even though the engine is not knocking?

RoadWarrior222
07-20-2011, 08:14 PM
Yes! .... and the important point, ignition advance does not equal power, peak cylinder pressure at the exact right time equals power.... so if you hear people saying "Ima fill with premium so I can run more advance" .. just nod, smile, back away...

Sundance 6g72
07-20-2011, 08:36 PM
So how should I do it for a stock block with stock heads?Does Anyone have the exact numbers for wot spark advance for the stock computer? I like using eds table but the wot portion could prolly be more aggressive than 31 degrees. I wonder if the 50 I ran was to much

RoadWarrior222
07-20-2011, 08:47 PM
I think Shelgame had the ignition table figured out. All I know about the stock one is it works a lot better with 15* base timing :D

Sundance 6g72
07-20-2011, 09:05 PM
Isn't base timing just idle timingI idle at 22degrees. Ed has a reason behind it. But with ms it obviously dosnt throw the whOle ignition table off

RoadWarrior222
07-20-2011, 09:08 PM
Erm, yes and no, it's open loop cold idle timing. To check/set it on a stock 'pooter you have to unhook the CTS... otherwise it might read at something like 22.

Sundance 6g72
07-21-2011, 12:12 AM
but with megasquirt would that matter? i guess im not getting what base timing is..

unless i look at it like this

-base timing, the timing your car runs when the computer does not intervene
-normal timing, timing that the computer sets + base timing?

idk.. im to tired to think.

Ondonti
07-21-2011, 03:22 AM
With megasquirt its effectively offsetting the distributor from zero.

It seems to be necessary because of the strange way they have designed the firmware. Also, not all motors can change timing. Like I mentioned before. Some versions of firmware have NO timing advance when starting unless you have base timing. Makes no freakin sense but its probably just the programmer being lazy.
If you have noticed, Megasquirt doesn't do so well with firmware support. The manual never seems to match up with any firmware I have ever used. They make changes to things that make no sense. Thats what you get with something that is a hobby for its creators.

Sundance 6g72
07-21-2011, 09:59 AM
so it sounds like i dont need to worry about my timing numbers being wrong. if the table says 50, its 50

87turbodance
07-21-2011, 12:51 PM
I don't know of any Megasquirt that uses base timing plus table timing unless it is setup incorrectly. Whatever advance is currently displayed in MS is the correct current advance unless the trigger angle is wrong. The trigger angle needs to be correct so that MS has a starting pint to work from and all advance is calculated from there.

I run the oldest practical version of MS (MS1) and it operates the same as all the newer versions but less accuracy because of the older, slower processor.

You can operate MS on the basis of base advance + table advance but you are basically setting it up with the wrong trigger angle info.

87turbodance
07-21-2011, 01:04 PM
With megasquirt its effectively offsetting the distributor from zero.

It seems to be necessary because of the strange way they have designed the firmware. Also, not all motors can change timing. Like I mentioned before. Some versions of firmware have NO timing advance when starting unless you have base timing. Makes no freakin sense but its probably just the programmer being lazy.
If you have noticed, Megasquirt doesn't do so well with firmware support. The manual never seems to match up with any firmware I have ever used. They make changes to things that make no sense. That's what you get with something that is a hobby for its creators.


I'm not trying to be a dink but what you say here makes no sense to me.

The firmware confusion comes from the firmware split between vanilla MS2, MS2Extra and differences between MS2Extra and MS1Extra. This results in conflicting info if you don't look for your documentation all in one place.

www.msextra.com deals exclusively with MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3

www.msefi.com deals with vanilla MS2.

To add confusion, there are a lot of MS1 and MS1Extra documentation floating around. Don't use google searches to find info because it will all be different depending on firmware, the documentation found, is for.

For best results, stick with MS2Extra or MS3 using the latest firmware revision.

www.msextra.com deals exclusively with MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3 - stick with one of these three firmwares and use the latest version. There is also a forum found at MSExtra.com as well that deals wit the Extra firmwares and MS3.

Sundance 6g72
07-21-2011, 02:12 PM
should i upgrade from 2.1.0 to 3.0 MSII firmware then? i havnt had any MS related issues that i know of

87turbodance
07-21-2011, 03:08 PM
I'd recommend upgrading. You might need to fine tune your tune a bit after upgrading.

Sundance 6g72
07-21-2011, 09:54 PM
what would the benefit of upgrading be? ill do some research n a second but you seem to know more than i do even when i have the internet to my disposal O.o

Sundance 6g72
07-21-2011, 10:19 PM
so i dont work on sunday and its also a bi week for paintball... this means i need to do something productive with the car.

how should i go about changing my injectors? i have new injector seals in my headgasket set.

do i need to remove the lower intake to get the injectors out? im thinking i dont but ive never done it and cant remember how the stealth worked when i pulled its intake apart.

once they are in, do i just change the fuel injector size in megasquirt and call it a day or will my tune still be off?

going from 19s to 33s seems like a big jump and im kind if worried about idle.

bond_bbs
07-21-2011, 11:44 PM
You shoudl only need to unbolt the rail from the lower intake, pull the injectors, put the new orings on your new injectors, a drop of oil on each oring will help them slide into the rail and lower intake easier. Just becareful as you don't want to knock any crap into the injectors holes.

A shop vac and air gun can help prevent that. Gunk does like to build up around the lower injector orings, so just take your time.

Ondonti
07-22-2011, 04:12 AM
I'm not trying to be a dink but what you say here makes no sense to me.

The firmware confusion comes from the firmware split between vanilla MS2, MS2Extra and differences between MS2Extra and MS1Extra. This results in conflicting info if you don't look for your documentation all in one place.

www.msextra.com deals exclusively with MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3

www.msefi.com deals with vanilla MS2.

To add confusion, there are a lot of MS1 and MS1Extra documentation floating around. Don't use google searches to find info because it will all be different depending on firmware, the documentation found, is for.

For best results, stick with MS2Extra or MS3 using the latest firmware revision.

www.msextra.com deals exclusively with MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3 - stick with one of these three firmwares and use the latest version. There is also a forum found at MSExtra.com as well that deals wit the Extra firmwares and MS3.

I don't mean to be a dink but there are a million versions each of those firmwares. Each one can be vastly different. EVERY release I have tried has changed things massively, and the manual never gets completely updated to match any one firmware completely. Since you don't actually have MS2 I can understand you not experiencing this. They were coming out with new firmwares every month for awhile, and the firmware changes were big. Do I need to remind you that there are functions they have in the software that years later are still not supported (knock sensor stuff).
Some versions of MS2 allow you to set a starting timing advance. Some versions do not. MS2 extra does not. MS2Extra upgrade was very little help to me because it just got farther away from what the manual was talking about. Setting up idle control was terrible because there was no info about what any of the fields meant and the manual was full of old info.

Megasquirt is an endless college undergraduate project, not a true business venture.

MS1 is a whole different can of worms. MS2 was never fully supported as far as I am concerned. They never finished whatever they were doing with it and just moved on to MS3. MS1 is something that they "finished."

It doesn't really matter if you lie to MS about base timing. My map is 12 degrees less then actual. I could care less about trigger angle if it runs right and has the timing advance I want. I run batch fire because I only have one functional driver so there is no reason to worry about injector timing. Only problem I ever have is AIS and the awesome manual did not support the firmware at the time I was messing with it.

RoadWarrior222
07-22-2011, 11:25 AM
I guess the important thing is that with our setups, it's unpossible to subtract timing from the base dizzy setting, so as long as your diz is not advanced further than the lowest total timing needed anywhere, you can just set up your map accordingly. BUT don't do it blindly, know what you have it set to, otherwise if your bolt rattles loose you're screwed, or you try to reproduce it on a new or rebuilt motor, you're screwed, you publish your setup online for people to try, and they're screwed ... ... ...

87turbodance
07-22-2011, 11:50 AM
I guess the important thing is that with our setups, it's unpossible to subtract timing from the base dizzy setting, so as long as your diz is not advanced further than the lowest total timing needed anywhere, you can just set up your map accordingly. BUT don't do it blindly, know what you have it set to, otherwise if your bolt rattles loose you're screwed, or you try to reproduce it on a new or rebuilt motor, you're screwed, you publish your setup online for people to try, and they're screwed ... ... ...

Are you taking about the stock setup or with MS?

In terms of MS, it's best to set the MS so that the trigger angle of the pickup matches what you tell MS so that ignition advance is accurate and if other people look at your table they can use your numbers and they will be accurate. That's what your saying right? For the sake of simplicity, have an accurate trigger angle setup.


Since you don't actually have MS2 I can understand you not experiencing this.

I don't tun it on a daily basis simply because I don't have the budget for it. I have built a number of MS2 and a MS3 boxes and have run them on my car for a week each. I have experienced the different firmwares but I always skip vanilla MS2 and go straight to Extra.



Some versions of MS2 allow you to set a starting timing advance. Some versions do not. MS2 extra does not. MS2Extra upgrade was very little help to me because it just got farther away from what the manual was talking about. Setting up idle control was terrible because there was no info about what any of the fields meant and the manual was full of old info.

MS1 is a whole different can of worms. MS2 was never fully supported as far as I am concerned. They never finished whatever they were doing with it and just moved on to MS3. MS1 is something that they "finished."

It doesn't really matter if you lie to MS about base timing. My map is 12 degrees less then actual. I could care less about trigger angle if it runs right and has the timing advance I want. I run batch fire because I only have one functional driver so there is no reason to worry about injector timing. Only problem I ever have is AIS and the awesome manual did not support the firmware at the time I was messing with it.

I find that extra has a better manual then the vanilla firmwares. It's all at www.msextra.com Be sure to use the most recent firmware version.

MS1 had the same long history of firmware changes and upgrades that MS2 has. The documentation is usually behind the firmware so the best place to find info is the MSextra.com forums for up-to-date info. MS1 is only "finished" because MS2 came out. Just like MS2 is only "finished" because MS3 came out. The same group of people have done MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3. The keep moving on because the previous platform runs out abilities. B&G, the original Ms creators, aren't involved to much anymore and just "oversee the project" as far as I can tell.

Personally, I'd like my timing map to be accurate so that I don;t have to keep adding 12 degrees to anything in my logs. Why not just increase your trigger angle by 12 degrees so that the number make sense?

I don't get the no timing at cranking thing? The only setup I can think of that sounds similar to what your thinking is "trigger return" instead of "basic trigger" for distributor ignition setups. Trigger return works with hall-effect and optical trigger setups and allows for using the trigger return as a signal for firing the ignition coil when cranking. This gives better craning timing accuracy on engines that don;t have a consistent rpm when cranking. This requires that your trigger return angle lines up with a good advance angle for cranking rpm like 10 degrees.

To me you just sound bitter about something do with MS. The info is all out there; I agree that it is hard to find if you don't know where to look.

Anyway, I just want to make sure that people now where to look for info in the future.

Make sure that you're running MS2Extra or MS3 - DON'T run vanilla MS2

All info can be found at www.msextra.com

Ryan

Sundance 6g72
07-22-2011, 12:25 PM
now im confused a little bit. i bought mine from diy http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-unit-p-165.html

not sure if its ms2 extra or not.

could my hard starting be caused by using a basic trigger setup? (its not bad but its deff not optimal, always starts but has a little trouble)

and lastly, is my ignition map spot on or off? i did what ed said... so maybe our setups are off? if i set a fixed angle of 10* in MS, my timing light reads 10*


lets play nice fellas

c2xejk
07-22-2011, 12:29 PM
Since we are on spark advance, Ryan I think you mentioned a while back that you had redrilled the hole for the rotor (~50 degrees off.) I assume this was to reduce the trigger angle. What is the benifit of doing this? ie. increased accuracy of the delivered spark angle?

Thanks
Ed Kelly

87turbodance
07-22-2011, 01:43 PM
Since we are on spark advance, Ryan I think you mentioned a while back that you had redrilled the hole for the rotor (~50 degrees off.) I assume this was to reduce the trigger angle. What is the benifit of doing this? ie. increased accuracy of the delivered spark angle?

Thanks
Ed Kelly

I did this to so I could use trigger return instead of basic trigger. Without moving the rotor I found that I couldn't achieve a trigger angle that also allowed the rotor to line up with the cap terminal correctly. I have MS1 which doesn't allow me to change the trigger between rising edge or falling edge. MS2 and newer has this capability which might make it so that this mods is not needed. At this found I have a crank wheel made pf 1/4" bolts and I have a dizzy installed that is only used to distribute the spark from a single coil.

I believe the duration of the trigger in the dizzy is either 55 degrees or 60 degrees depending on if you trigger on the rising or falling edge (use the gap or the filled in section of the pickup wheel as the trigger). You would need either a trigger angle of 65 or 75 degrees to achieve the trigger return angle of 10 degrees needed for trigger return cranking.

Using trigger return, you can change the ignition delay from the default 3 to 0 cycles which makes for quicker starts. Trigger return cranking also has a more accurate cranking spark angle when used with an engine that doesn't turn over at a consistent rpm (ie small number cylinders and/or high compression)

Joe,
What ed had you do is correct. Your spark angle should be correct. Trigger return instead of basic trigger might give faster starts but it can be a bit more troublesome to setup. You might also be too rich or lean on your prime pulse or cranking PW. It can take a lot of time to fine tune these for quick starts

---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------

I don't know what firmware DIY ships loaded on their boards. It's easy to flash to a newer version if you have a PC with a serial port and a straight through m/f cable. Flashing with a USB/serial adapter can hit and miss.

Sundance 6g72
07-22-2011, 03:07 PM
well im 99% sure ed and i have the same firmware and so im going to keep mine as is until after drag week. Last thing we need is for his megasquirt to go down and mine not accepting his tune due to a newer firmware.

reason i think ED has the same firmware as me is because im running his tune with no issues (other than me having to change the ve table and other basic settings to fit my car)

ill take some time out to work on the priming pulse and cranking pulse

ryan, youve been some great help as has everyone else. Thank you for your patients and helping getting me to where i am now.

87turbodance
07-22-2011, 03:16 PM
well im 99% sure ed and i have the same firmware and so im going to keep mine as is until after drag week. Last thing we need is for his megasquirt to go down and mine not accepting his tune due to a newer firmware.

reason i think ED has the same firmware as me is because im running his tune with no issues (other than me having to change the ve table and other basic settings to fit my car)

ill take some time out to work on the priming pulse and cranking pulse

ryan, youve been some great help as has everyone else. Thank you for your patients and helping getting me to where i am now.

Looking at what you sent me, you have MS2Extra 2.1p

I'm happy to help.

Sundance 6g72
07-22-2011, 05:38 PM
looks like i might have a valve spring compressor coming my way soon.. once the heads are rebuilt, i really wont have a reason to not be turbocharged

the new heads are being cleaned right now. i have one rocker assembly completely cleaned up along with both cams and cam gears cleaned up.

Just need to clean both heads and the other rocker assembly. Then i need to pick up some head bolts, order some oil lines and a T3 gasket. i have them sitting in my cart on amazon but never got around to ordering.

c2xejk
07-22-2011, 07:40 PM
Then i need to pick up some head bolts, order some oil lines and a T3 gasket.

Head bolts? Unless the stock ones are damaged, you can reuse them. They are not TTY. On the T3 gasket, I just use some wheel bearing grease. Smokes a little at start up, but then crystallizes and seals the joint.

Ed Kelly

Ondonti
07-22-2011, 10:04 PM
I was talking about actual spark advance while starting.

Why does it matter to you if your trigger angle lines up with a terminal?

The reason that I see to have base timing at zero or less would be to achieve a more harsh Antilag effect. I believe it only sets down as far as -5 degrees and I don't know if it can actually pull timing like that, plus my base is 12.
For me its not a problem to have timing missing from my map. I don't think about it in absolute terms, just relative terms to the nearbye spots. Just means I can't share numbers without adding to them.

Sundance 6g72
07-22-2011, 10:10 PM
Head bolts? Unless the stock ones are damaged, you can reuse them. They are not TTY. On the T3 gasket, I just use some wheel bearing grease. Smokes a little at start up, but then crystallizes and seals the joint.

Ed Kelly

good to know.

what about valve springs? The heads i have seem to have been rebuilt? is it normal to rebuild with new valve springs? i dont plan on buying new but some of my friends who think they know what they are talking about tell me to buy new springs.

wheel bearing grease sounds like a winner but id assume id have to be careful not to get it to smear into the turbo and get sucked though?

RoadWarrior222
07-22-2011, 10:32 PM
I guess the important thing is that with our setups, it's unpossible to subtract timing from the base dizzy setting, so as long as your diz is not advanced further than the lowest total timing needed anywhere, you can just set up your map accordingly. BUT don't do it blindly, know what you have it set to, otherwise if your bolt rattles loose you're screwed, or you try to reproduce it on a new or rebuilt motor, you're screwed, you publish your setup online for people to try, and they're screwed ... ... ...

Actually, ignore this, I'm thinking about a different system I think. We've got it knowing "crank" (But actually cam) angle by a high res optical encoder, it can do whatever it likes, but like '87td says best to match trigger angle...

... though there's gotta be some limits on advance on this, the dizzy rotor is only so fat, and the spark can only jump so far, or you're firing the last cylinder instead of the next.

87turbodance
07-22-2011, 11:40 PM
I was talking about actual spark advance while starting.

Why does it matter to you if your trigger angle lines up with a terminal?

The reason that I see to have base timing at zero or less would be to achieve a more harsh Antilag effect. I believe it only sets down as far as -5 degrees and I don't know if it can actually pull timing like that, plus my base is 12.
For me its not a problem to have timing missing from my map. I don't think about it in absolute terms, just relative terms to the nearbye spots. Just means I can't share numbers without adding to them.

All timing is based off the trigger angle except starting if you are using trigger return. MS gets the trigger signal which occurs at the trigger angle which is typically about 60-80 degrees. Ms then then calculates how much time it has to wait, based on the current rpm, before firing the coil at the correct advance.

Having trigger angles and return angles line with with a terminal matters if you have rotated the distributor to achieve a trigger angle of, say, 100 degrees. Doing this also rotates the distributor cap but not the rotor so the rotor may not be close enough to the cap terminal at 10 degrees or maybe 45 degrees so the spark can't get the terminal or maybe goes to the wrong terminal

Sundance 6g72
07-23-2011, 01:21 AM
cheep valve spring compessor seriously bent before it could undo the retainer. We got 2 valves out to night

also, does it matter if the valves go back into the same cyl that they came out of?

Ondonti
07-23-2011, 01:59 AM
All timing is based off the trigger angle except starting if you are using trigger return. MS gets the trigger signal which occurs at the trigger angle which is typically about 60-80 degrees. Ms then then calculates how much time it has to wait, based on the current rpm, before firing the coil at the correct advance.

Having trigger angles and return angles line with with a terminal matters if you have rotated the distributor to achieve a trigger angle of, say, 100 degrees. Doing this also rotates the distributor cap but not the rotor so the rotor may not be close enough to the cap terminal at 10 degrees or maybe 45 degrees so the spark can't get the terminal or maybe goes to the wrong terminal

But setting the actual timing advance during starting..........Obviously MS is just guessing when to ignite since RPM's is probably not very accurate at that point. Some firmwares I have seen have an actual input for starting advance.

BTW, just like I can't share timing maps without a concession, you can't exactly share things when you are the only one with a modified distributor.

I do have interest in where the rotor is to the terminal in comparison to total timing advance. I would rather stick with 12 degrees whether or not I include that in the trigger offset. I don't know how critical it is to have high resolution setups for timing because the only downside I can think of is a lack of timing, not too much timing. If the ECU is lagging behind actual rpms slightly, its just going to fire slightly later then intended. The end result would be no different because the process @ WOT would be repeatable, and so would the lag. The only real difference would be a boosted motor changing power levels, and at that point you still run different timing for each load level.
I do want to do anything I can to keep my distributor. Still hoping Brian gets that knock box done.

bond_bbs
07-23-2011, 03:13 AM
cheep valve spring compessor seriously bent before it could undo the retainer. We got 2 valves out to night

also, does it matter if the valves go back into the same cyl that they came out of?

Generally, at least from how I've been taught and do it, it's best to keep the valves matched to where they came out of. If the heads / valves have worn any, they will have worn together.

Ondonti
07-23-2011, 04:52 AM
If you want to stay with stock springs AND are running megasquirt then do it. If you are not MS then don't replace the springs. 190,000 mile springs with a huge cam still don't float until around just before 7000 rpms for me. Motor justs starts to mess up as it hits 7k for me when I had that set of heads temporarilly in my Duster.

Force Fed Mopar
07-23-2011, 07:43 AM
cheep valve spring compessor seriously bent before it could undo the retainer. We got 2 valves out to night

also, does it matter if the valves go back into the same cyl that they came out of?

I would not put the heads back on unless I had a complete rebuild on them, including a valve job. Just take the heads to a good machine shop and let them do everything, not that much money and less hassle, and you'll have peace of mind about them.

RoadWarrior222
07-23-2011, 08:41 AM
Generally, at least from how I've been taught and do it, it's best to keep the valves matched to where they came out of. If the heads / valves have worn any, they will have worn together.

Yup, grab a cereal box, jab 2 rows of 6 holes in the side with a pencil, stick 'em in, number them, take one out at a time to clean up or whatever, then they don't get mixed up.

Sundance 6g72
07-23-2011, 10:08 AM
If you want to stay with stock springs AND are running megasquirt then do it. If you are not MS then don't replace the springs. 190,000 mile springs with a huge cam still don't float until around just before 7000 rpms for me. Motor justs starts to mess up as it hits 7k for me when I had that set of heads temporarilly in my Duster.

i figured as much. i get valve float a little after 7000 with my 94xxx mile heads.


I would not put the heads back on unless I had a complete rebuild on them, including a valve job. Just take the heads to a good machine shop and let them do everything, not that much money and less hassle, and you'll have peace of mind about them.

Well thats money i dont have in the budget. right now im just trying to stop the oil leak from what i think is a dropped valve guide.

the heads going on are just to stop the oil, the heads coming off will be cleaned up, ported, cammed, new stiffer valve springs with locks and retainers (the works) but this is also when i can the money to do so. Ed will be the one i have do it if anything.


Yup, grab a cereal box, jab 2 rows of 6 holes in the side with a pencil, stick 'em in, number them, take one out at a time to clean up or whatever, then they don't get mixed up.

thats what ive been doing. :thumb:

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

valve guides, how the hell do i get them out?

87turbodance
07-23-2011, 11:59 AM
But setting the actual timing advance during starting..........Obviously MS is just guessing when to ignite since RPM's is probably not very accurate at that point. Some firmwares I have seen have an actual input for starting advance.

BTW, just like I can't share timing maps without a concession, you can't exactly share things when you are the only one with a modified distributor.

I do have interest in where the rotor is to the terminal in comparison to total timing advance. I would rather stick with 12 degrees whether or not I include that in the trigger offset. I don't know how critical it is to have high resolution setups for timing because the only downside I can think of is a lack of timing, not too much timing. If the ECU is lagging behind actual rpms slightly, its just going to fire slightly later then intended. The end result would be no different because the process @ WOT would be repeatable, and so would the lag. The only real difference would be a boosted motor changing power levels, and at that point you still run different timing for each load level.
I do want to do anything I can to keep my distributor. Still hoping Brian gets that knock box done.

It's not specific firmwares that allow for setting a specific cranking timing it's an option call "trigger return" that you can choose instead of "basic trigger". This will set the cranking spark to occur when the trigger returns (turn off). The trigger from the 3.0 dizzy last 55 or 65 crank degrees depending on if you trigger using the hole or the filled in par of the pickup. To get trigger return to work, you need to make sure that either the start of a hole or the end of a hole (in the trigger wheel) lines up with about 10 btdc and then turn on "trigger return" and figure out what the trigger angle is going to be.

c2xejk
07-23-2011, 12:24 PM
If you are not going to do a valve job, definitely keep them in order. Cheap valve spring compressors don't work well, especially with stiffer springs. That is why the one I have is made of square tubing and has a long handle...

If you are talking about removing the guide seals, they make a special pair of pliers for removing them. You can use regular slip-joint pliers. Do the brute force pull and twist. If you are talking about the guides, then I have been told that you can use threaded rod to pull them out and press the new ones in. That said, I haven't tried that...

Irocelectric93
07-23-2011, 01:27 PM
Yeah don't smear too much grease. Just put a small amount but not enough to squeeze into the inside of the turbine housing and you'll be fine. I use a little grease when putting tires on actually. Tire shops would tell me "NOOOO" and that i'll break down the rubber etc. but i find a minimal amount doesn't effect tire life and seals the rim nicely. Just food for thought. As for all the firmware nonsense....i had some firmware issues at first with my MS actually. I called DIY and apparently i had somehow put an "experimental" firmware on mine when i first got it because i could NOT get TS to communicate with my MS for some reason. Funny how i got that firmware off DIY's site if i remember right. Problem solved with newer firmware. Wow...got off on a tangent there. Sorry Joe.

Sundance 6g72
07-23-2011, 02:34 PM
If you are not going to do a valve job, definitely keep them in order. Cheap valve spring compressors don't work well, especially with stiffer springs. That is why the one I have is made of square tubing and has a long handle...

If you are talking about removing the guide seals, they make a special pair of pliers for removing them. You can use regular slip-joint pliers. Do the brute force pull and twist. If you are talking about the guides, then I have been told that
you can use threaded rod to pull them out and press the new ones in. That said, I haven't tried that...

im 99% sure i have valve GUIDES (and guide seals) in my headgasket set. ill have to check later

so i need to remove the valve guide seals and valve guides. i want to remove everything from the heads so i can clean them up nicely

now im on the hunt for a nice spring compressor again...

c2xejk
07-23-2011, 07:18 PM
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=1816130&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/RockProducts/VGI125.jpg (http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=1816130&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/RockProducts/VGI125.jpg)

Valve guide like what is shown above. The are usually only removed for replacement and are sold separately from gasket sets...

Ed Kelly

Sundance 6g72
07-23-2011, 09:12 PM
Sorry Joe.

its cool man, the more info in my thread the better

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

dammit, i swear i read that the guides where included.

i did buy valve stem seals.

the guides honestly look good but im not chancing it.. ill have to buy new ones.

edit: ed, are you able to get me a deal or should i go to autozone?

c2xejk
07-23-2011, 10:00 PM
If you replace the guides, then you should have a valve job done. The stem bore can be slightly off center which will cause the valve to not seal correctly...

Ed

Sundance 6g72
07-24-2011, 12:50 PM
GRAWW

new direction then. I turbocharge the car as is for now. I take my spare heads and get them ported, valve job, cams, etc. Money for this is not there right now but thats why its for future not current.

Ill do my injectors today, fuel pump when the tank gets really low on gas and then we'll do the clutch. Once thats done the car will be ready for the crossover and turbo, intercooler, oil lines etc.

if this sounds like a terrible idea, then please say so. The oil burning is not bad to the point of frustration.. its just kind of inconvenient but im not going to swap heads that "might" be good just have them burn oil too. ill do it right the first time.

Force Fed Mopar
07-24-2011, 01:27 PM
If you can live with the oil smoke, I'd do that and have the spare heads redone. I do not recommend trying to do a backyard valve and guide job at all.


ill do it right the first time.

That's the spirit :thumb: It is hard to come off the hip for it I agree, but's it much better than doing it twice. Shouldn't be more than about 250-300 to have both heads completely rebuilt w/ new guides and seals. Maybe less if you disassemble and wash them, the less labor the machine shop has to do the cheaper it is. You can pressure wash the bare heads w/ Purple Power or similar and get them good and clean. This is what many shops do anyway (the acid used to clean iron heads will eat aluminum).

Sundance 6g72
07-24-2011, 01:30 PM
i plan on taking them completely apart and soaking them in a cooler full of purple power then pressure washing them

then ill talk to ed about having them done. porting might not be needed but a mild cam and some springs along with a full rebuild will be my min.

ill be back later, attempting to install the injectors right now

Sundance 6g72
07-24-2011, 02:26 PM
injectors are in.. just need to reinstall the plenum.

gas spilled all over so i need to let that evaporate!!

ill set tuner studio from 19# to 33#s and see where that brings me.

one question, should i be able to see the orings that seal the injector to the lower intake? i have the rail fastend down tight and i can see the oring.. looks like its sealing but you never know.

also, the injectors are a little shorter than the stock units.. hope this dosnt cause an issue...

Sundance 6g72
07-24-2011, 05:30 PM
Im rolling around on 33# injectors right now. Car seems to love it.. pulls just as hard as before except when i go wideopen and ping 10:1 afr!!!!! Needs tuning again. i have the cruise tuned already but the wot needs some highway time.

i love megasquirt <3

the poniac guys told me i have 33# injectors, now im starting to wonder if i do or not.. its a thought in the back of my head. They came out of a 3800 SC engine from a grand prix. not sure what year. All i know is my duty cycle at idle is basically cut in half!

RoadWarrior222
07-24-2011, 06:06 PM
Hmmm stuff I'm seeing says they would be 21#... but don't know the pressure they run.

bond_bbs
07-24-2011, 11:33 PM
From what I've read - they are rated as #33 @ 43.5psi.

Edit: That's based on a 2004 GTP. 97 - 03 were mildly different.

Sundance 6g72
07-25-2011, 12:37 AM
i asked on a poniac forum.. back when i remembered the year.

did a datalogging run tonight in 4th on the highway. once i hit 105 i smelled a big strong wiff of coolant.. immediatly shut the car off and coasted to the side of the road

fearing the worse possible senareo, i pop the hood. My hearer core inlet hose blew apart and dumped all my coolant at 4500 rpms or so... the cars fine but i had a 4 mile hike to the nearest wesco to get some coolant and fill a few water bottles i had laying around

all my hoses are stock from the factory so i plan on replacing them all tomorrow with fresh coolant.

RoadWarrior222
07-25-2011, 06:54 AM
Stuff I was looking at might have been pre 2001... I was kind of thinking they had low fuel pressure back then, like 36psi or something and it might work out to be 33 @ 48 psi or whatever...

Sundance 6g72
07-25-2011, 10:05 AM
they never mentioned fuel pressure to me.

maybe i do have 21#.... we will find out one way or another.

Force Fed Mopar
07-25-2011, 01:56 PM
Should be able to search the part number on them...

87turbodance
07-25-2011, 04:06 PM
From what I've read:

new style 3800 injectors are 19lb
new style 3800 supercharged are 33lb

old style 3800 are 21lb
old style supercharged are 36lb

I run the new style 3800 19lb injectors presently in my dd Spirit.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/sam0854.jpg/

RoadWarrior222
07-25-2011, 08:14 PM
Site I Was looking at must have been full of sh@t...

Ondonti
07-25-2011, 10:12 PM
The thing I like about our sohc motors is that our thermostat acts like a restrictor so the water pump creates pressure in the block that is greater then in the rest of the system. I blew out a freeze plug years ago at the end of the 1/4 mile. Track officials were happy with me that day. The freeze plug was not in there right so it was bound to happen.

The 24v sohc and dohc motors have a system that is only pressurized as far as the radiator cap can hold. That makes it harder to prevent hot spots.

If the valves are pretty tight in the guide I wouldn't worry if the heads are throwaways. Much worse idea to not get a valve job then run old guides. Now, if you had a tIII, I would be much more worried about the guides. Seen those get real sloppy with less then 100k miles.

---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------


It's not specific firmwares that allow for setting a specific cranking timing it's an option call "trigger return" that you can choose instead of "basic trigger". This will set the cranking spark to occur when the trigger returns (turn off). The trigger from the 3.0 dizzy last 55 or 65 crank degrees depending on if you trigger using the hole or the filled in par of the pickup. To get trigger return to work, you need to make sure that either the start of a hole or the end of a hole (in the trigger wheel) lines up with about 10 btdc and then turn on "trigger return" and figure out what the trigger angle is going to be.

I really don't know what you are talking about when you say the hole or the filled in part of the pickup.
I would like the motor to fire up quicker. Does it wait to spray fuel also?

I can say that with 20 degrees base timing and 28 degrees OEM ecu advance, I had no problems lighting off the fire as long as i had the gap properly sized for my boost level (and compensating for methanol). Seems like the rotor was not too far off at that point. Would be nice if we had some diagrams to go along with all this. I don't really understand what MS is doing with our low data rate wheel or why it can't use the high data rate.

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 01:53 AM
So when the time comes, what should my ms timing be when I'm boosted at 8Psi. Also what about e85. Can one walbro handle itFinaly, what spark plug gap for boost?

Ondonti
07-26-2011, 03:07 AM
On 8 pounds you might still be at the point where the OEM timing curve is decent. On E85 I added timing in the lower boost (3-4psi range) and then dropped it from there.
I was not worried about the lower boost levels, just the ones where I know it wants to blow up.
I don't have a great grasp of oem pistons vs pump gas. So many variables in my setups including massive amounts of Methanol at certain times. Cams vs no cams. etc etc. When we get into turbo setups, things change. Something few people think about is that larger turbos need less timing per pound of boost because they have less backpressure and less exhaust reversion.
A way to think about efficiency would be that more efficient setups need less timing.

Get safe first. I think taking a degree or two out at 8psi might be a safe start if you are running premium. Not saying its necessary.

87turbodance
07-26-2011, 08:16 AM
I really don't know what you are talking about when you say the hole or the filled in part of the pickup.
I would like the motor to fire up quicker. Does it wait to spray fuel also?

I can say that with 20 degrees base timing and 28 degrees OEM ecu advance, I had no problems lighting off the fire as long as i had the gap properly sized for my boost level (and compensating for methanol). Seems like the rotor was not too far off at that point. Would be nice if we had some diagrams to go along with all this. I don't really understand what MS is doing with our low data rate wheel or why it can't use the high data rate.

If you look at the trigger disk in the distributor it has two sets of cutout. The inner low data rate ring has 6 cutouts in it. The outer ring appears to have 360 equally spaced slots with 10 filled in.
When I refer to the hole I'm talking about the part of the ring that is cut out and filled in part is the part that is still there.

MS can trigger either off the slot part of the disk or the filled in part of the ring depending on how it's wired into MS and what trigger method you choose (going high or going low). MS always trigger off the transition from either a hole to filled in part or vice versa. The optical sensor puts out a signal whenever "hole" part of the disk is between the sensor.

Since the dizzy turns half crank speed what MS sees from the low data rate pickup is 3 slots per 360 crank degrees. This results in 1 slot per ignition event. The duration of the hole trigger disk (or filled in part if setup different), in crank degrees, is how long the trigger says on in MS. You can take advantage of the timing of the pattern in the trigger disk and align the trigger return (part of the disk when the transition occurs that turns off the trigger input) with about 10 BTDC and then enable "trigger return" instead of "basic trigger". You just need to be sure that the dizzy isn't being rotated too far from stock to align the trigger return with this angle or the rotor to cap terminal relation might be too far out.

with MS wired per DiyAutotune's guide we are triggering off the filled in part of the disk when "going high" is chosen and the hole part of the disk when going low is chosen.

Whether you choose basic trigger or trigger return, fuel will still spray every trigger from the dizzy when cranking but spark is typically held off for 3 ignition events so that Ms can calculate a more accurate cranking rpm before firing the ignition.

Here is a trigger wheel I'm talking about except that I have modified it by filling in most of the outer ring and then I cut out a before the the trigger on the low data rate ring for cylinder 1. This would allow someone to run wasted spark with a stock dizzy but it's much easier to just install 18 or 36 studs in the crank pulley and mount a sensor for it.

The high data rate info from the distributor actually provides too much info so that Ms isn't capable of reading it or interpreting it. The low data rate output provides all the data MS needs to run a standard distributor setup.
Trigger disk (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/sam0856.jpg/)


Trigger return cranking isn't a magic fix to anything but it might make starting easier. Ultimately, a toothed wheel on the crank which can easily be made with a drill press, some studs and time will yield a better trigger system with options for wasted spark ignition and Sequential fuel and ignition with the addition of a simple cam sensor.

Trigger wheel example (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/859/sam0860.jpg/)

RoadWarrior222
07-26-2011, 08:56 AM
This are what is in the distributor...

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4927/30v6encoder.jpg

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 10:16 AM
On 8 pounds you might still be at the point where the OEM timing curve is decent. On E85 I added timing in the lower boost (3-4psi range) and then dropped it from there.
I was not worried about the lower boost levels, just the ones where I know it wants to blow up.
I don't have a great grasp of oem pistons vs pump gas. So many variables in my setups including massive amounts of Methanol at certain times. Cams vs no cams. etc etc. When we get into turbo setups, things change. Something few people think about is that larger turbos need less timing per pound of boost because they have less backpressure and less exhaust reversion.
A way to think about efficiency would be that more efficient setups need less timing.

Get safe first. I think taking a degree or two out at 8psi might be a safe start if you are running premium. Not saying its necessary.

so do you mean retarding my dizzy, trigger angle, or actually going into my ignition table and lowering all those values? i guess you guys still have me confused on base timing and actually timing that im running with the megasquirt.

c2xejk
07-26-2011, 12:12 PM
so do you mean retarding my dizzy, trigger angle, or actually going into my ignition table and lowering all those values? i guess you guys still have me confused on base timing and actually timing that im running with the megasquirt.

Now that you have the MS synced to the engine, do not mess with it. Adjust your spark timing map only... That way, anybody who has there engine properly setup with an MS can run your tables..

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

87turbodance
07-26-2011, 12:23 PM
The discussions between Brent and I should probably be moved to a separate thread to keep confusion out of this thread.

Ed is right. With the dizzy setup and the timing reading correctly with a timing light DON'T touch the distributor rotation. I find it best not to think of any base timing plus timing stuff. Just think of it this way, MS sees a signal from the distributor at a certain crank angle but MS has no idea what this angle is until you tell it. This is the trigger angle. MS will use this trigger angle to calculate all advance assuming it is correct.

You can lie to MS and tell it the wrong trigger angle but then your timing map will be incorrect and you will always have to subtract or add the from the number shown in MS to find the real advance. Why not just tell Ms the actual trigger angle so everything makes sense?

You can use the middle LED on MS to help find the trigger angle when first setting up MS and to get the motor to run. Once it runs, use a timing light to find the exact trigger angle and lock down the dizzy. You have done these steps so you're good. Once you get the car running well and feel like messing with things again it might be worth while to add a crank sensor and studs to the crank pulley but not necessary. I added bolts to my crank pulley just to show that it works and it works well. I want to run MS3 with sequential fuel and spark in the future though.

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 02:25 PM
okay so that clears that up. i dont mind the ignition talk you guys are having as long as i understand it :P

but again, how much timing is too much for boost? my tune is set up to pull timing if the intake temp gets to hot.. idk if i trust that but its there. also, spark plug gap, what should it be with boost?

im talking with a friend who has an open garage full of air tools and all about doing my clutch and fuel pump. hopefully i can get that done soon. its nice working at 5pm (Earliest) and having a dad who gets out of work at 4 and lets me take his car. so its no problem having the car down for a week or so if that happened.

87turbodance
07-26-2011, 03:31 PM
How much timing is a difficult question to answer. You'll likely be limited by what quality of fuel you can run.

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 03:51 PM
How much timing is a difficult question to answer. You'll likely be limited by what quality of fuel you can run.

right now i go to a place called pic n pac (prolly the only one in the world...) and they have "pure gas" with no ethanol in.. i noticed a mpg increase from running it (maybe im crazy)

i can get 87, 89, and 93 from them. or i can go down the road and get e85 but not sure whats required to do that

Ondonti
07-26-2011, 09:57 PM
Just like timing, even plug gap is variable. If you can get away with a big gap, do it. Just don't assume that your plug gap will work, and also don't assume that a small plug gap will solve all problems. I know someone who is running a .019" gap right now and still can't get his misfire to go away. His boost is not real high so that indicates maybe something else is wrong.

Sorta like how Ed is careful with his n/a timing, you have to be more so with boost.
I got real scared when I put that wideband back in and found that my AFR was in the 13's. Glad I never really got on it too much. Not really super dangerous with low boost, low timing, and regapped rings, but still a BAD practice.

If you want to, feel free to remove half a degree of timing per psi of boost and use that as your safe starting point.
Some people say 1 degree per pound of boost, but they are usually talking about cars that alreayd make 15 pounds of boost and want to increase timing, plus they are often wrong. If you remove 1 degree of timing/psi and run 30psi, you would only have 8 degrees of total advance. That is not going to work well (crazy egt's plus its a 2 valve head that needs more timing).
Running -4 degrees of timing at 8psi will be very very safe.

c2xejk
07-26-2011, 10:06 PM
Pure gas will increase your MPG. Rumors I am hearing indicate that e85 will increase power. ~5% gain because it is oxygenated...

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

Force Fed Mopar
07-26-2011, 10:08 PM
You need to add a crapload more fuel to run E85. Like, 45% more. Your mileage will drop a lot. You can crank the hell out of the timing though ;)

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 10:56 PM
that much fuel huh? my 33 might handle it out of boost but thats ALOT for when in boost

damn.

Force Fed Mopar
07-27-2011, 04:58 AM
You will definitely need bigger injectors for E85.

Ondonti
07-27-2011, 05:47 AM
Supposed to be about 30% more fuel.
The accurate way would be to test your local E85 using the test tube technique. Then when you know the % of gasoline/Ethanol, then you look at Stoich for gasoline and Ethanol and do the math yourself.

The thing about MS is that you can either modify your injectors using a fuel injector calculator, or modify the AFR #
I would prefer to tell the truth about the injector size and then change the AFR #. I think mine is like 10point something or 11 I don't remember. When I first did it I calculated the injector difference myself. It doesn't really matter, require fuel #'s will be the same.

I am also assuming 91 octane or higher fuel.

Force Fed Mopar
07-27-2011, 06:04 AM
It may be different for different engines and compressions. But for my 2.2 turbo, I had to add about 45% fuel for e85.

Ondonti
07-27-2011, 06:33 AM
I am using perverted E70 type numbers which is winter/high elevation mix.

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/e85_injector_size.html
Now I have no idea how I will meet my goals with the ID1000 injectors I wanted.
ID2000 are way too big and way too expensive.

RoadWarrior222
07-27-2011, 09:00 AM
BTW. my 3.0 seems to like a bit of ethanol, mpg seemed to go up with the switch to E10, by about 10%. Conversely it seemed to drop in the Escort.

87turbodance
07-27-2011, 09:33 AM
With MS you can run one of those GM or Ford flex fuel sensors that will measure the amount of alcohol in the fuel and MS can adjust accordingly on the fly.

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm