1992 cummins, what should I look for.

[shackwrrr]

I am looking at a 1992 d250 with a cummins and a 5 speed. Its a 2wd dually.

What should I look for when I go to look at this truck?
How good are the VE pumps?
How good is the Getrag 360?


It has 255K on it and the body is decent shape for the mileage. The owner says the truck runs great and doesn't have any problems. I am looking at trading my R/T for it

Ian

[135sohc]

Make sure the 360 hasnt been run low on oil.

[Evilancer]

Ask if the KDP (killer dowel pin) has been done, if not plan on pulling the front timing cover and doing it.

Jon

[RoadWarrior222]

The owner says the truck runs great and doesn't have any problems. I am looking at trading my R/T for it

Ian

That's always reassuring isn't it :D Not casting any aspersions on this particular owner, but the gamut ranges from not counting anything below knee height as "rust" when claimed to be rust free, getting a dodgy "safety", filling the crankcase completely with Lucas to hide bearing knocks, claiming "it's a truck, they're all like that" when the 6" of play in the front end components is pointed out, necessitating whipping the wheel half a turn back and forth to drive straight.. etc etc..

[shackwrrr]

That's always reassuring isn't it :D Not casting any aspersions on this particular owner, but the gamut ranges from not counting anything below knee height as "rust" when claimed to be rust free, getting a dodgy "safety", filling the crankcase completely with Lucas to hide bearing knocks, claiming "it's a truck, they're all like that" when the 6" of play in the front end components is pointed out, necessitating whipping the wheel half a turn back and forth to drive straight.. etc etc..


Yeah, lol. Im going to look at it tonight after work. I understand if it needs some stupid stuff and I know its not rust free. Im mainly worried about the drivetrain. If the front has some slop im not going to go crazy over it because how would I ever get 4K out of the spirit to even think about buying a cummins. If it ends up not being right for me and I get sick of it I have lines of people waiting that would trade for what I want.

[Subliminal]

So 1992 is a good year. It's intercooled.

Like was said, the fluid level on the Getrag is relatively important. That being said, it isn't an easy thing to check, as there is no dipstick or siteglass. When you drive it see how easy it is to get into reverse and second. Take your time and work the gears a little bit. You don't really use 1st gear very often on these trucks, but check it out anyway. But, if she shifts nice, if she goes in and out of reverse and 2nd good, and the clutch pedal seems to have some decent travel, you might be ok. The trannies are stout, but they don't like to be lugged or speed shifted. When you lug it, you can hear it really rattle...that's bad, mmmmkay? ;)

On the engine, I'd just check it over and make sure the cummins anti-corrosion system is working. ;) I've not seen too many of these old girls that don't leak here and there. Mine leaks from the (new) valve cover gaskets and from the oil pan gasket. Leaks aren't a big deal as it holds 3 gallons, but if you look under it and there's a few quarts on the ground, that isn't good either. ;)

I believe the 2wd setup uses ball joints and coil springs. system is fairly easy to rebuild, so like you said I wouldn't worry too much about it.

You could pull the intake hose off the turbo and check the shaft to see if its good.

On the pump itself, there are signs to see if people tampered with it. It's not necessarily a bad thing if they did, as tuning these trucks are a lot of fun and can be done relatively easily with little danger, but if you find the pump is tampered with and the owner insists that the pump 'has never been turned up', well, you know what/who you're dealing with. On the top of the fuel pump is a screw called 'the smoke screw'. There is a cap on that. If the cap is gone and you can see the screw...tampered with. ;)
On the back of the pump, above and towards the motor from where all the fuel lines come out, is a long 'screw' with a slot for a flat head screwdriver in the back. If that screw has a metal collar welded to it, it probably hasn't been tampered with...but the biggest step to getting power out of the VE is removing that collar and screwing in that screw...of course you want to read up on the dangers first. ;)

I'm trying to think...it's funny that there really isn't too much that can go wrong on these things...they're like old farm tractors...they just work. ;)

You might check the steering shaft from the firewall to the steering box. The big upgrade for that over the years has been the famed 'borgenson' steering shaft. That could be a sign of a loved truck at one time. ;)

If it's rained in the recent past, you might check the carpet for moisture on the front kick panel area and the back cab corners.

When you start the truck, it should catch within 2 cranks...they are fast starting engines. When the engine is turned off, it usually stops so violently it squeaks the belt. A good puff of black/grey smoke upon initial start up isn't necessarily a bad sign, either.

Boost gauge/EGT?

AC?

Plow? 5th Wheel, Trailer Hitch? Maybe you can tell how the truck has been used for its life.

If you do buy it, you should almost immediately do a few hundred bucks in maint. Change the fuel filter, the air filter, the oil filter, the 3 gallons of 15w40 and drain and replace the tranny fluid with 5 qts of 5w30 synthetic. This is over filling the tranny by 1 qt. Apparently between Getrag and Dodge and Cummins, the transmission ends up sitting low in the back, and without the extra oil there's a bearing that gets a bit starved. The extra quart is one of those unanimous tips.

If it won't start, check the 2 wires coming off the fuel pump...those get loose, the truck won't start. Basically the only electric on the entire motor.

The VE is a reliable little guy. People have taken them to great heights...I think ~700 HP is the top right now. And that in a 6-7k truck is a ton! Getting some bigger injectors, a bigger intake/exhaust and possibly changing the turbo should make 300 HP (almost double the stock) attainable. The fun thing about the VE is that everything is mechanical. You tune it by turning wrenches, instead of a computer.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling post...was just trying to think of stuff that I'd check, knowing what I know now.

Actually, you should go over to www.dieseltruckresource.com (http://www.dieseltruckresource.com) and go to the 1st gen section, and then look through the sticky...it's akin to the knowledge base here:

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/faq-knowledge-base-do-look-here-first-t102027.html

Also, the killer dowel pin is a concern, but it didn't happen to as many of the first gens as it did to the later 12v engines, if i remember correctly. I mean, if you have the chance, fix it, but I wouldn't turn down the truck if it hasn't been done.

Here's a good post from an old Chrysler tech in regards to the Getrag 360:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showpost.php?p=2844659&postcount=11 (http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/faq-knowledge-base-do-look-here-first-t102027.html)

Here's some good info on the VE pump operation/modification:
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/Power_ve.htm

EDIT: Fixed the link for the Getrag post.

[Subliminal]

Argh...can't get it to link right to the tech talking about the G360. Here's the text, though:




mysteryman wrote:

The bearing that fails is the rear main shaft bearing.....This happens due to some of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread....

What you have is a Timkin tapered roller bearing pressed onto the main shaft.....the race is then placed into the rear of the case partially sticking out. Then the tail shaft housing goes over the part of the race that sticks out pressing it down onto the cone....There are shims that go between the race and the tail shaft housing that adjust the bearing clearance..

The failure comes when the clearance is too tight (TOO MANY SHIMS)
This loads the bearing too tight.....When the trans heats up things expand...
This causes the race in the case to lock on the cone and rotate in the case...
This wears out the case and causes the trans to get real hot real fast...Then often times the case will crack between the main shaft and the countershaft bearing bores..... Party over !!!

The bearings in the Getrag are Timken tapered roller bearings just like the front wheel bearings. On front wheel bearings you adjust the clearance with the spindle nut....On a Getrag you stack thin shims.....For new bearings you want a +.006 preload . For used bearings you want .000 clearance.....

Back in the early 90's we were having problems with the remans getrag was sending us...I had about 20 or so that we tore down to find out what had happened...I found that all of them had +.030 to +.045 shim packs.....I thought that I was not calculating it correctly or that the failed units were too bad off to be accurate...
I went to the getrag reman plant way back when to get to the bottom of what the problem was..... I pulled 3 off of the line and tore them down to check the clearance....They all had +.030 to +.045 shim packs in them as well..... Oh sh** ! I called for the production manager ....We discussed my findings...He said that they set them up this way intentionally because they felt .006 was too lose and caused excess gear rattle during testing...OMG !!!

I promptly told him that he was to stick to the spec that WE told them to use and that I was going to write my report to my superiors that Getrag was the cause of the failures and should be back charged for the failures of the remans that Chrysler had had to eat in the previous 3 years!

For those of you that have had one of the Getrags apart . You may have noticed the the rear main shaft bearing race was excessively thick....
The reason for this was that when we were testing the very first Getrags we found that under excessive load that the standard race would split and crack the case...So we reduced the size of the cone and had Timkin make a special thick walled race....It worked and hence the reason for the strange heavy race...
The best thing to do is rebuild the Getrag PROPERLY and put it back in....
There is nothing wrong with the Getrag if you know how to build them !
I have written quite a bit on this subject in the past...Look up the posts...

I know that many think that the NV4500 is a better trans....But we did have the 4500 several years BEFORE the Getrags were used...The 4500 was only used for gas trucks originally....We used the Getrag because it was found to be a better trans during testing.....The 4500 was later used behind the diesels...It had a few small changes made to it before it was used in the diesels but that was it....
The 4500 replaced the Getrag for only one reason...cost !

Rebuilding the Getrag is not hard you just have to pay attention to details...
The Getrag's problems were few but vital... The things that made them fail were as follows...
1) OIL LEAKS
A) drain plug dripped , run out or run low on oil
B) No gaskets on early models , more leaks
C) pilot bushing failures,,, bronze was too soft
D) over loading , trailer too heavy
E) too much hp , turning up the fuel/air
F) overheating ruining the oil
G) wrong type of oil , no 90 weight in the Getrag ! !
H) not knowing how to shift , rattling the gears,, too high a gear at too low a speed

2) Poor assembly
A) setting shim packs too tight , Getrag even did this themselves at times
B) uneven shim packs between main shaft and countershaft causing tail shaft housing not to hit squarely
C) bell housing misalignment

In conclusion, I personally have never had a Getrag fail in any of my personal trucks nor have I ever had to rebuild one twice that I built,, I have seen them go hundreds of thousands of miles in fleet trucks without failures.....

If you still decide to replace it with some thing else I would be glad to buy whats left of your Getrag.. I could use the spare parts ...

Good luck and be sure to replace the pilot bushing. Preferably with a ball bearing... The flywheel will need to be bored out for this...I do my own but the guys at South Bend clutch do them all the time for people.....

As for the pilot bushing....Engineering knew it was not going to work before the first one left the plant...But if you did not haul trailers it would work long enough to get out of warrantee....Engineering wanted to use a ball bearing but . We were shot down due to cost ...
In 94 it was decided to go to a Torrington needle bearing...Great in theory but it just made matters worse....They ate the imputs alive....

As for the worn out ends on the imput shafts...What I do is put them in my cylinder grinder and make them round and back on center..Then I make a steel sleeve on the lathe and press it onto the shaft end.... Then I put them in my cylinder grinder again and finish them to the correct diameter for the ball bearing I am going to use ...The tolerance is .0001 ot centerline . And no your Craftsman engine lathe you got from dad is NOT going to do the job accurately enough !

[shackwrrr]

Thank you, Just the post I was looking for.

Its a young guy that owns it and hes into hopping up cars so I am guessing it will be turned up but he could have been too dumb or scared to do it (fingers crossed). The pictures are crappy cell pics but from what I can see it isn't all dented up and the fiberglass flares are still there.

I hate to say it but if he trades me then there will probably be a cheap blown up spirit R/T on the market within the year. He hangs out with a guy that owns a neon and is pretty dim but the neon guy is really pushing this guy to trade since he's in love with the spirit.

[RoadWarrior222]

If you do buy it, you should almost immediately do a few hundred bucks in maint. Change the fuel filter, the air filter, the oil filter,

Best to do that for anything you plan to drive for more than a week, or more than 15 miles at a time.

[shackwrrr]

Best to do that for anything you plan to drive for more than a week, or more than 15 miles at a time.

Yep, my commute is 35 miles each way.

[shackwrrr]

So 1992 is a good year. It's intercooled.

Like was said, the fluid level on the Getrag is relatively important. That being said, it isn't an easy thing to check, as there is no dipstick or siteglass. When you drive it see how easy it is to get into reverse and second. Take your time and work the gears a little bit. You don't really use 1st gear very often on these trucks, but check it out anyway. But, if she shifts nice, if she goes in and out of reverse and 2nd good, and the clutch pedal seems to have some decent travel, you might be ok. The trannies are stout, but they don't like to be lugged or speed shifted. When you lug it, you can hear it really rattle...that's bad, mmmmkay? ;)

On the engine, I'd just check it over and make sure the cummins anti-corrosion system is working. ;) I've not seen too many of these old girls that don't leak here and there. Mine leaks from the (new) valve cover gaskets and from the oil pan gasket. Leaks aren't a big deal as it holds 3 gallons, but if you look under it and there's a few quarts on the ground, that isn't good either. ;)

I believe the 2wd setup uses ball joints and coil springs. system is fairly easy to rebuild, so like you said I wouldn't worry too much about it.

You could pull the intake hose off the turbo and check the shaft to see if its good.

On the pump itself, there are signs to see if people tampered with it. It's not necessarily a bad thing if they did, as tuning these trucks are a lot of fun and can be done relatively easily with little danger, but if you find the pump is tampered with and the owner insists that the pump 'has never been turned up', well, you know what/who you're dealing with. On the top of the fuel pump is a screw called 'the smoke screw'. There is a cap on that. If the cap is gone and you can see the screw...tampered with. ;)
On the back of the pump, above and towards the motor from where all the fuel lines come out, is a long 'screw' with a slot for a flat head screwdriver in the back. If that screw has a metal collar welded to it, it probably hasn't been tampered with...but the biggest step to getting power out of the VE is removing that collar and screwing in that screw...of course you want to read up on the dangers first. ;)

I'm trying to think...it's funny that there really isn't too much that can go wrong on these things...they're like old farm tractors...they just work. ;)

You might check the steering shaft from the firewall to the steering box. The big upgrade for that over the years has been the famed 'borgenson' steering shaft. That could be a sign of a loved truck at one time. ;)

If it's rained in the recent past, you might check the carpet for moisture on the front kick panel area and the back cab corners.

When you start the truck, it should catch within 2 cranks...they are fast starting engines. When the engine is turned off, it usually stops so violently it squeaks the belt. A good puff of black/grey smoke upon initial start up isn't necessarily a bad sign, either.

Boost gauge/EGT?

AC?

Plow? 5th Wheel, Trailer Hitch? Maybe you can tell how the truck has been used for its life.

If you do buy it, you should almost immediately do a few hundred bucks in maint. Change the fuel filter, the air filter, the oil filter, the 3 gallons of 15w40 and drain and replace the tranny fluid with 5 qts of 5w30 synthetic. This is over filling the tranny by 1 qt. Apparently between Getrag and Dodge and Cummins, the transmission ends up sitting low in the back, and without the extra oil there's a bearing that gets a bit starved. The extra quart is one of those unanimous tips.

If it won't start, check the 2 wires coming off the fuel pump...those get loose, the truck won't start. Basically the only electric on the entire motor.

The VE is a reliable little guy. People have taken them to great heights...I think ~700 HP is the top right now. And that in a 6-7k truck is a ton! Getting some bigger injectors, a bigger intake/exhaust and possibly changing the turbo should make 300 HP (almost double the stock) attainable. The fun thing about the VE is that everything is mechanical. You tune it by turning wrenches, instead of a computer.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling post...was just trying to think of stuff that I'd check, knowing what I know now.

Actually, you should go over to www.dieseltruckresource.com (http://www.dieseltruckresource.com) and go to the 1st gen section, and then look through the sticky...it's akin to the knowledge base here:

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/faq-knowledge-base-do-look-here-first-t102027.html

Also, the killer dowel pin is a concern, but it didn't happen to as many of the first gens as it did to the later 12v engines, if i remember correctly. I mean, if you have the chance, fix it, but I wouldn't turn down the truck if it hasn't been done.

Here's a good post from an old Chrysler tech in regards to the Getrag 360:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showpost.php?p=2844659&postcount=11 (http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/faq-knowledge-base-do-look-here-first-t102027.html)

Here's some good info on the VE pump operation/modification:
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/Power_ve.htm

EDIT: Fixed the link for the Getrag post.



Holy crap at the amount of tech in "the sticky"

[Subliminal]

Yeah, no doubt!

How'd it go? Verdict?

[shackwrrr]

I gave him a call and his parents drug him with them out of town. He'll call me when he gets back.

[glhs0426]

Check the slack at the pinion. I can't recall how many ring and pinion sets I've replaced in these trucks. Depending on how the truck has been used it may be time for a new set. The gears seem to be so hard that the pinion teeth crack and eventually fall off. The truck will seem to bind when backing up, but go forward without any issues. If you feel this pull the cover and check for any "loose teeth".

I know everything has issues, but in my mind the 92/93 Cummins trucks are the equivalent of an anvil. Give them a little respect and care and they will return the favor with a lifetime of use. Wallace White (Lonewolfe Performance) has over 1 million miles on his 4X4 1ton.