90 Voyager ECM

[Luvless]

I recently bought a 1990 Plymouth Voyager 2.5 T with a 5 speed. The seller told me that it needs an ECM, so I am attempting to find one. I know that he replaced the old ECM with one out of a laser, and that it does not work. I called the local dealership and they told me that my van has part number 5276383, or the new number that is 5235601. After looking that part number up, it comes back as a 1990 Plymouth voyager with a 2.5 T 5 speed FEDERAL emissions. I want to see if the federal emissions ECM will still pass CA emissions since I live in CA. If it won't, then can I buy the ECM for CA emissions and use that? If I buy the CA ECM, will I have a CEL come on? Will I have to replace sensors? This van has 199K on it, so I am sure sensors will start to go soon anyways, but I really want to drive this bad boy, and since I went through a lot of trouble to get it, I want to at least drive it. Any help would be awesome. I am new to this forum, and I am hoping someone will be able to help me out!!

-Zach

[raccoon]

before you just switch out parts, is the car outputting any codes?

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/fault/

this site has the trouble codes and the process to get them.

[Luvless]

Well, the ECU that is in there, I just pulled out. It is part number 5235615 which comes back as a 90 Caravan with a 2.5 turbo, manual, fed emissions. This is exactly what I have, except that mine in a voyager. Its the same year and everything, but the part number is diffferent. Wouldn't it be the same thing, since the only difference is the part number? I will check out the codes and see what happens. Do I need a scan tool? I have one for OBD2, but not the connector for OBD1. Not sure if it will work. How do I go about checking th ECU on the bench, or can I? Thanks for the fast response!!

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

Well, after reading that link, that tells me how to check it. Nevermind. I will go check the codes and see what comes up.

[Luvless]

Well, it brings up codes 12, 23, and 55. I know 12 and 55 are no big deal, and I am currently looking for the Air Charge Temp Sensor as I type this. Once I find it I will test it and see what it brings back. Hopefully it is just that, and the ECU is good.
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/fault/ is an AWESOME resource!!! Thanks for posting it. It has given me everything I need, except the location of the sensor, and someone to do it for me. haha

-Zach

[raccoon]

charge air temp sensor is in the intake manifold. after the throttle body. it should start without it though.

[BlueShadow]

If its a 2.5L it wouldn't come with a air charge temp sensor. So I would not expect a code from it?

[22mopar]

I have a 1989 turbo van 2.5 ecm with manual trans. that'll work for you.

[Luvless]

There is no sensor there. Any idea why it would throw a code for a sensor that never existed? I want to post a pic of the area, but I am not sure how to.

-Zach

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ----------

This thing will turn over just fine. And it ALMOST catches. It just wont fire. I have yet to check air/fuel/spark, which I know is the first thing to check, but since I was told the ECU was no good, I figured I would start there. Now, I have no idea.

---------- Post added at 06:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------


I have a 1989 turbo van 2.5 ecm with manual trans. that'll work for you.

How much do you want for it? Assuming the ECM is my problem?

[shackwrrr]

I have a 1989 turbo van 2.5 ecm with manual trans. that'll work for you.

89 is SMEC 90 is SBEC. It wont work

[Luvless]

89 is SMEC 90 is SBEC. It wont work

Damn it. Well thanks for the offer man.
Still any ideas why it will throw a code for a sensor it does not have?

[BlueShadow]

It should only really throw the code of the ecu is for an intercooled or an early log car which had the sensor.

In the process of building a 2.5T dakota. Engine sounded like it wanted to start, would fire a couple times from time to time. So it sorta had some fuel and spark. Was driving me nuts. Could get the car to run on ether tho. Swapped for another computer and indeed it ran fine afterwards. I spent soo much time trying to diagnose other things as I was refusing to believe the sbec could go bad like that.

IIRC there was maybe only a handful 90 turbo caravans? Is there one or two connectors on the ecu?

[Luvless]

It has one screw connecting the wires to the ECM, but there are two sections of wires going to the ECM. So it sounds as though the ECM is actually bad then....? Like I said, I will have to check for air/fuel/spark this weekend. Once I figure out if thats ok, how do I check the timing? I am used to a 69 el Camino where I put a timing light on, and check it that way. old school I know.

-Zach

[Juggy]

the only way it would pull a 23 is if the car actually has a charge air temp sensor wired up. disconnecting it from the sensor will remove the code. perhaps the previous van owner set the wiring up for TII electronics. which is just adding 1 pin in the SMEC/SBEC for the CAT sensor.

I can send you to someone with a few 90-91 SBEC computers. even has the "high torque" 5 spd one from 91 cars (extra 20-25 ft lbs tq). they are canadian based computers tho. not sure how or if they would pass cali smog....

---------- Post added at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------


It has one screw connecting the wires to the ECM, but there are two sections of wires going to the ECM. So it sounds as though the ECM is actually bad then....? Like I said, I will have to check for air/fuel/spark this weekend. Once I figure out if thats ok, how do I check the timing? I am used to a 69 el Camino where I put a timing light on, and check it that way. old school I know.

-Zach

if there are 2 plugs that go into the computer (1 with 8mm screw, other just pushes on) then you actually have 89 SMEC electronics....

[Luvless]

Since this will be a daily driver, I NEED it to pass smog, so I don't want to chance that. My problem is that this sensor does not exist on my van. Not sure how to reset the code, since I already disconected the battery for a few HOURS and it still set the code off. If I can find the wire that coresponds to the sensor I could pull it from the ECM right?

[Luvless]

if there are 2 plugs that go into the computer (1 with 8mm screw, other just pushes on) then you actually have 89 SMEC electronics....[/QUOTE]

It only has the 8 mm screw. Nothing pushes into it. But the screw has two different sections of wires under it.

[Juggy]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?32148-Air-Charge-Temp-Sensor-Install&highlight=charge+air+temp+wire

that should give u everything u need there to inspect the harness...

[Luvless]

So I am assuming the wire he pulls out is the wire I should pull out? Thats the red one correct?

[Juggy]

no the one underneath it. where there is no wire. if your van is wired up for TII, you will remove that wire. AJ was doing the TII install, so he had to drill the connector out and add the pin....if your harness was setup for this then that is your problem for the code 23

[Luvless]

Ok. I will check that out tomorrow, and if that wire is there, I will pull it out.

I actually got it to start tonight. It ran rough, but it started when I was checking for spark, so it only had 3 cylinders.. I checked for air fuel and spark. I have a good spark at the plug, so I know the coil, wires, and plugs are good. The plugs were dirty, so I cleaned them, and put em back in. I am thinking that the fuel pressure is low, and that is the issue. I knocked on the tank, and there is fuel there, plus I could smell it on the plug. I am not sure how old the fuel is, so I might try to flush it with some fresh, quality 91 octane from Chevron. I hope that will help it run.

[Luvless]

I have that wire, so I will pull it out in just a few. I will re set the comp, and then post what happens.
Thanks for all the help so far guys!!

-Zach

[Luvless]

Pulled it out, and now I have code 24 for the TPS. I will try putting that wire back in and see if 24 goes away. Still wont start. Thinking fuel pressure still. Worried about the codes right now.

-Zach

[Luvless]

Turns out I was wrong. I THOUGHT I had that wire. The wire I pulled out went to the TPS. It threw code 24. Put the wire back in. Still will start and run, but runs VERY ROUGH until it shuts down on its own after two or three full revolutions. If I give it gas, it shuts down.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

It still throws codes 12, 24, 23, 55. I know 12, and 55 are nothing, and 23 is my issue. 24 should go away after the TPS is hooked back up properly.

[raccoon]

have you checked its compression yet?

how about the firing order?

id also make sure everything cam timing wise is alright. set the engine to TDC and make sure the cam is @ 0 degrees and the rotor in the cap is pointed at the #1 spark plug lead.

[Luvless]

I checked compression today actually. 1 = 140, 2 =140, 3 = 145, 4 = 150. All the measurements are in lbs. I don't know what they should be at, but this was with the battery charger on, cranking for 6 -7 seconds. It turned over great. Once I clean the plugs off, it will start and run for a few seconds, until I give it gas.
I didn't check firing order, but that is a good idea. I will look at that in a few.
I am pretty sure that the timing is correct since the previous owner, and the shop it was at, said it ran great until it stopped running. Unless it would slip a tooth on the timing belt, I am assuming it would be good. But I will do that in a few as well. Will post what I find once I get the answers.

[Luvless]

timing is good. Points to number one when its at TDC. I need to get over to the store and get myself a fuel pressure tester. Harbor freight has one for $20 that looks like a decent kit. I will pick it up and see what happens.

[Luvless]

Fuel pressure is under 50 PSI. Checking to see what it is before the filter now.

[raccoon]

might wanna look into the fuel pressure regulator after that.

[Luvless]

It jumped up 5 psi so I replaced it. Still same thing. Regulator is next on my list. Its $40 at AutoZone, will be in the store tomorrow sometime if I call and order it. Will check it out first.

[Luvless]

Regulator checks out. I just bought the book, and did the fuel pressure test on it in the book and it says the pressure should be at 39 psi. My gauge said 40 to 42. So that tells me that the whole fuel system should be working just fine.

I am back to thinking its the computer. I have the 5235615 comp in there now, but I need 5235601. Is there anyway to tell if the ECM has been flashed to my van or not? I am wondering if it will cause this problem if the ECM is not properly flashed over. I am not sure how to test that, or if it even needs to be flashed to my van.
Any ideas?
Anyone near Sacramento, CA with a van like this that would let me temporarily borrow their ECM for 5 minutes? lol

[Luvless]

Firing order is also good. I am still looking to see if there is a way to see if the ECM is flashed to my van. If there isn't, is there a way to flash it myself to the van? I am running low on $$ and can't throw money at it.

[shackwrrr]

what book do you have. Without the engine running fuel pressure should be 55psi. at idle the pressure should be 50 or so.

Did you get new spark plugs, was the spark a thick blue spark? Could you get a picture of the computer and we will tell you exactly what it is for sure so you dont get the wrong computer again. I am thinking that you somehow got a TII 2.2 computer from something in there.

[Luvless]

I have the Haynes manual. I picked it up last night at AutoZone.
The spark is huge. I am used to seeing the spark in my 69 El Camino. It has the HEI, but the el Camino's spark is small compared to the Voyager's. The plugs are beautiful, as long as I clean them. Otherwise, they are very dirty. They are wet, and black. I have pulled them several times to clean them, and every time they come out black, and soaked with fuel.
I will snap a pic of it, but I am not sure how to post pics to a forum. It says I have to upload them to a site. I guess I could upload them to my facebook and do it that way.
I checked the number on the ECM, 5235615 says its a 90 caravan, with a 2.5 T, 5 speed, Fed emissions. I need a 90 Voyager, 2.5 T, 5 speed, Fed Emissions. So, unless there is a drastic difference, it should be the same, right?

[Luvless]

My fuel pressure is good, and the spark is good. I am going to check the cam timing today and see if that is the problem. Could it be that the computer needs to be flashed?

[raccoon]

maybe we figure out if you have the right computer? is there a part number on it? if you take it apart you;ll see the flash memory chip it will have 3 numbers on it to identify the programming.

so starts and dies now? id check the map sensor vacuum line.

[Luvless]

ECM part number is 5235615. I checked it out, and it comes back to a 90 Caravan, 2.5 Turbo, 5 speed, FED emissions. I have the same thing, but a 90 Voyager...

It will start and die whenever I clean the plugs. Once I put my foot on the gas pedal to keep it going, it shuts down. BLACK smoke out the back. When I pull the plugs, they are all very black, and very wet with fuel.

Cam timing checks out ok. I made a mark on the cover where TDC is, and made a mark on the cam gear. The rotor pointed at number 1. Turned it over by hand 2X and everything lined right up.
Vacuum check next?

---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------

I am starting to think that maybe there is a bad sensor that is not quite bad enough to throw a code. Like the 02 sensor or something, that would cause it to run VERY rich. Do you think this is plausible?

[RoadWarrior222]

Check the injector part numbers in case someone put huge ones in there, stock tune won't like them. Should fire up cold with a dodgy O2, run in open loop, coz that won't kick in for a couple of mins.

[Luvless]

How do I check the injector numbers? Do I have to pull the injector out?

[mcsvt]

I highly doubt the computer would be any different between a 90 Voyager and Caravan... Sounds like it's going super rich if you are getting black smoke and the plugs fouled right away. How is the vacuum harness? Map sensor hooked up? Fuel pressure regulator vacuum line hooked up?

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 PM ----------


How do I check the injector numbers? Do I have to pull the injector out?

The injector part numbers are on the side of the injector, you should be able to see the number without pulling them out, it's just below where the harness connects to them.

And to add to my other post, check all your grounds.

[Luvless]

Well only number 1 is getting black. The rest are just wet with fuel. Could it be a sticky valve on number 1 causing all this? Even though compression checks out?

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------

I will check those injectors out right now.
Where is the MAP sensor at? I do not hear a hissing like a vacuum leak is present. But I can start to check that out.
FPR is all hooked up though. I recently checked the whole unit out.

[Luvless]

I can't find the number on the injector. I have the wire pulled from the injector and I do not see a number. Is it directly under where the wire attached to the injector?

[RoadWarrior222]

Hmmm, I thunk it was stamped in the "barrel" part on stockers....

injector ID experts?

[mcsvt]

I've got some injectors sitting here, they aren't stock, but the ID location is the same.

32522

[RoadWarrior222]

Most helpful. :thumb:

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

BTW, if it's stupid awkward to see... could try pressing modelling clay to it, then reading it in a mirror.

[Luvless]

Thanks guys!! I will head back out and see what I can see. Post in a few....

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

Bendix
DEKA

That is what I can see on them. I do not see anything else on there, but it is really hard to get in there without pulling a TON of wiring, and vacuum line.

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

After a small ammount of research, it looks like these are the stockers. Any other ideas?

[mcsvt]

If only #1 looks black, maybe the injector is stuck open? Not sure what else to recommend checking, hopefully someone else will jump in.

[Luvless]

I have just taken pics of the injector after trying to start it. It acts like it wants to catch, and it will for what seems like maybe one whole revolution, then it dies. No matter what I do with the gas pedal, full throttle, or off it completely, or anything in between, it will die.
Sorry for the bad quality of pics.

[RoadWarrior222]

Still should be a number somewhere on the injectors, there was a +40% DEKA....

Just suspicious that "needs computer" meant it was upgraded to a point where it won't run with a stock one... or "I had it running great on a custom tune which I sold for $200 and put the stock one back in"

[Luvless]

I am not sure how to post the pics in a post, so i am adding them to my fb, then will post them that way.

---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

Interesting idea..... I will see if I can find the number on the injectors.

[RoadWarrior222]

Urgh, not sure that works if your pics aren't public. Usually folks use imageshack.us or photobucket.

[Luvless]

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2046597759460.113857.1079901427&l=9d11642891
Thats the link to where the pics are posted....

[RoadWarrior222]

yup, those plugs look pretty sooty...

[Luvless]

1031 J is the injector number I found on one of them. I can't see the others, and I am starting to get hungry. I am callin it a day for the day right now.

That is only number 1 plug. 2 - 4 are clean as a whistle, just fuel on them. I am not sure why it looks like that.

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------

I might get back to it tomorrow, but I am not sure yet. I am also might get back to it later after I grab a bite to eat. Not sure. Glad this isn't a daily driver yet!

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

Thanks for all the help so far by the way!! I really appreciate it!!

[Luvless]

I am gonna check out the MAP sensor on this thing tomorrow and see what happens. I will post results when I get them.

[Luvless]

Nothing changed when I disconnected the MAP or TPS like was suggested to me. When I discconected the MAP, code 23 for ACT went out... Not sure how those two are linked, especially since my van does not have an ACT.... Ideas?

[Luvless]

Well, I decided to see what happens with some fresh gas. I drained the WHOLE 15 gallon tank, (and got over 16 gallons?????). I left about a gallon or so in it, and then put a little over a gallon of 91 octane from Shell in it. THAT DAMN THING FIRED UP AND IDLED ON ITS OWN FOR A SECOND!! I shut it off after about 15 seconds cuz it sounded like crap. I am going to put more QUALITY gas in, and see what happens!!
Wish me luck!!

[shackwrrr]

You know what, I bet you had a crap ton of water in there. let the stuff you drained settle and I bet there will be quite a bit of water at the bottom.

[Luvless]

Well, it only starts when I have my foot halfway down on the gas pedal. Then once it starts it will only stay running if I put my foot all the way down, and it only runs for 3-4 seconds. Fresh fuel filter, and coil. It has air/fuel/spark. Timing is good. I am out of ideas... I think the ECM is bad... Anyone have an ECM for sale for a 90 Voyager witha 5 speed, Fed emissions?

[Vigo]

Go through something with me so we can get this all down in one place and refresh the thought process. I just read this whole thread and it's hard to keep it all straight.

Compression was good, 140-150 range.

Have spark, fuel (some fuel, not sure how much), and air as well.

You checked fuel pressure and said "under 50", then "40-42", then just said it was "good". To be CLEAR, the car should have 55psi of fuel pressure with the pump running and the engine off. You can make the pump run for testing purposes by jumping from battery positive to the positive terminal on the ignition coil. Once you start the car, it should go down 1psi for every 2" of vacuum, so if you pull 18-20" of vacuum (which you probably dont) it should drop to the 45 area. Regardless of the fact that you cant get the engine to run, you can pump the FPR down to 20" of vacuum with a hand vacuum pump (like a brake bleeder pump) and run the fuel pump to check this.

However, low fuel pressure would generally mean running lean, and your cyl #1 is running REALLY RICH, so even if your fuel pressure is low it is not causing THAT problem. The car WILL run on 40-42psi of fuel pressure as you said you have, so that is not the main issue.

It will also idle on 3 cylinders, so the #1 richness is not the main issue either.

But, since you have a fuel pressure gauge now, there is an easy test to do. Run the fuel pump until it comes up to max pressure (doesnt matter what it is, 40 or 55 etc, just whatever it stops rising at), and then turn off the pump and see how far and how fast the pressure drops. The pump has a check valve in its outlet so it should hold pressure and drop very slowly. If everything is correct it should only drop 20 psi after 20 minutes or so. If it drops fairly quick, like all gone after a minute or so, then use some vice grips to gently pinch off the fuel supply hose going to the rail, and then turn off the pump IMMEDIATELY afterwards (dont let it run like that, it will either pop an old hose somewhere or hurt the pump). With the supply line pinched off, if it's still dropping fast than you probably have leaking injectors, and i would suspect #1 based on the symptoms you described. If so, you can then verify it visually by pulling the rail and just looking at all the injectors. Dont turn on the key to do this test, just jump the pump and see what comes out of the injectors with the car completely off.

As for the 'it wont stay running' thing, that's not your fuel pressure or your fouled plug. 40psi of fuel pressure and 1 fouled plug will not keep this car from starting. The easiest way to verify whether this is a computer control issue or a fuel issue is to have someone crank the car while you spray starting fluid into the throttle body. You should be able to keep the engine running with starting fluid no matter WHAT the fuel system is doing. However, if the engine shuts off after the same amount of time or under the same conditions even with starting fluid, it is a controls (computer, sensors, harness) issue.

I have had one caravan that i fried the computer, and it would run for 2-3 seconds and shut off. When it was running you could rev it, and it ran fine, but after that time period it just turned off, and the time wouldnt change no matter what you did to the pedal, etc. So it IS possible for the computer to cause weird problems like this. However, since you would have to fix all the other problems anyway even if the computer was good, i would rule them out first before blaming the computer.

[Luvless]

Compression was fine. 140- 155.

Spark was weak, then I replaced the coil, and it is stonger now. Spark looks great now.

I do not have a hand vacuum pump to check this. I have a siphon hand pump. Will this work? The hose attached to it is about a 1/2" ID. I might be able to find some smaller hose to put inside it then, tape it up, and then make it work.

It actually did run on 2-4 briefly while I was checking spark the first time. It obviously ran rough, and the spark was weak, but it did run. That almost leads me to believe that part of my issue is cylinder number 1.

So check fuel pressure like normal and check to see how far and fast the pressue drops. From there if it does drop fast, start the test over, then before I turn it off, I crimp the fuel line? I want to make sure I do it correctly.

That makes perfect sense to me. I will get some ether, and see if I can get it to run. If it does not then it would be an electrical issue, like the SMEC?

I will take a peek, and check these out before I condemn the comp. I have a line on one, so I will check these out possibly tomorrow, and see what I come up with. I will post what I find as soon as I can.

Thanks for the help man!!! Greatly appreciated!!

[Vigo]

So check fuel pressure like normal and check to see how far and fast the pressue drops. From there if it does drop fast, start the test over, then before I turn it off, I crimp the fuel line? I want to make sure I do it correctly.

You got it. You want to pinch the hose just enough to close it.. pinch it too hard and you'll damage it (although if it's old it would be $3 well spent to replace that section anyway, #1 cause of engine fires on these things is that hose). I use vice grips to hold it closed. So yeh run the pump, let the pressure stabilize, pinch the hose and then pull the jumper off the coil to turn the pump off.

I dont know what your siphon pump looks like but i highly doubt it will pull much vacuum. The kind of thing i am talking about is usually sold as a vacuum brake bleeder in the parts stores for $20-30 bucks. I think harbor freight has one for ~$10. They also have a multimeter that works for ~$3, if you go to HF again and dont have a meter, be sure to pick that up! There's a lot of tests you can do with a vacuum pump and a multimeter!

[Luvless]

Gotcha!! Thanks!!

I was just lookin at an ad for HF that shows it for $20 on sale right now. I don't have any money to pick it up though. I am unemployed, and have no income. I will see if my dad has one, and if not, then I will figure something out. I think he might have one. He has everything. I have a decent little mult meter. It didn't cost much, but it has taken a beating, and still reads perfect.

[RoadWarrior222]

Sometimes you can pull vacuum with a bicycle pump if you take it apart and turn the plunger seal around backwards.... but it depends how good a bike pump it was in the first place...

[Luvless]

The only bike pump around is my dad's and about as old as the hills. Not so sure he would be happy about me tearing it apart. I might be able to convince him to buy one. He writes every tool off on his taxes, so he gets it all back at the end of the year.

[Luvless]

I went to napa and talked to the parts counter guy who always helps me, and told him about the issues, and he mentioned a clogged cat. I will check that out as well and see what happens, then post what I find here.

---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------

I sprayed starting fluid into the throttle body and it would not stay running long. Only a few seconds, but it did rev higher than normal, so I think that it did help!! I might be on to something with that.

[Vigo]

A clogged cat would not be able to stall a motor within 5 seconds. They are almost never THAT clogged. However, if you have a vacuum gauge you can check this. If the engine vacuum starts normal but quickly, steadily drops to near 0 and then the engine stalls, that would signal a clogged echaust. However, if the vacuum loss seems to FOLLOW the engine running bad and stalling instead of coming before it, it is probably not the cat.

Most boost gauges or hand vacuum pumps will have a vacuum gauge on them. Either one of those are things you should have in your arsenal to get this van DD'able, so pick one and buy it. :)

Harbor freight has a vacuum/boost gauge for ~$20, or 16 with 20% off.. :) They also have that hand vacuum pump. You can use the vacuum pump to help you test things like the MAP sensor and FPR, in addition to just using it as a vacuum gauge or to bleed your brakes by yourself. Ive owned both and they do work although the harbor freight pump will fail almost immediately if you suck fluid into it.

I understand your financial situation. I am WAY poorer than most people guess, but i tend to spend my money on things that last. In that line of thought, that is why i have recommended picking up the cheap tools with whatever money you come across. You'll probably use them multiple times on this vehicle and on other occasions, and often having the tools to accurately diagnose something is cheaper than throwing even one wrong part at a car that doesnt fix a problem... especially if you buy it all from harbor freight with 20% off coupons! :eyebrows:They wont last forever, but you usually get your money's worth after only one or 2 uses, especially if it saves you the money of buying a part you didnt need.

[Luvless]

Yeah, I already pulled the exhaust pipe from the turbo. I heard the turbo spool, so I know that is not an issue. I also know that since the problem still exists that the cat is not it. I am pretty sure that since I have checked everything, except the computer, that this is the issue. I still need to get some cash for that vacuum pump to check it out though. With starting fluid it will not stay running.

[Vigo]

It is sounding more and more like a computer. But, im sure you wont regret being as certain as you can be. Are there any in junkyard near you? any 90-91 turbo 2.5 ECM should be able to run that van, although i dont know minor things (possibly cruise control and the like) would be different.

[turbovanman²]

Triple check cam timing and just for shitts and giggles, make sure the cam gear hasn't spun on the cam-that one bit me years ago.

Make sure the MAP has its own vacuum source and even try another one. I haven't seen many computers fail like your van is acting.

If your 100% sure the MAP and compression is ok, I would unbolt the fuel rail, LEAVE everything hooked up and aim the injectors into a container, have someone crank it over and see if the spray is the same for all injectors. If there is a ground at one of the screws, make sure you ground that otherwise it will act funky.

How to test your fuel system-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums.archive/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=36

[Luvless]

It is sounding more and more like a computer. But, im sure you wont regret being as certain as you can be. Are there any in junkyard near you? any 90-91 turbo 2.5 ECM should be able to run that van, although i dont know minor things (possibly cruise control and the like) would be different.
I have been thinking computer as well since I have exhausted pretty much everything else...
there are several wrecking yards near me, but none seem to have anything for a turbo van with a 5 speed. It sucks... I can get one from an autoparts store for about $200 plus core.

---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------


Triple check cam timing and just for shitts and giggles, make sure the cam gear hasn't spun on the cam-that one bit me years ago.

Make sure the MAP has its own vacuum source and even try another one. I haven't seen many computers fail like your van is acting.

If your 100% sure the MAP and compression is ok, I would unbolt the fuel rail, LEAVE everything hooked up and aim the injectors into a container, have someone crank it over and see if the spray is the same for all injectors. If there is a ground at one of the screws, make sure you ground that otherwise it will act funky.

How to test your fuel system-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums.archive/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=36

I will go back over it, and see. How do I check the cam and cam gear?

[turbovanman²]

I have been thinking computer as well since I have exhausted pretty much everything else...
there are several wrecking yards near me, but none seem to have anything for a turbo van with a 5 speed. It sucks... I can get one from an autoparts store for about $200 plus core.

---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------



I will go back over it, and see. How do I check the cam and cam gear?

You can use a turbo car, doesn't have to be a van.

Remove the 18mm bolt and inspect, you should be able to see the keyway lined up.

[Luvless]

Good to know.
I have a TON of stuff planned for my birthday this weekend, but if I get a chance, I will take a peek at it!!
Thanks man!!

[Vigo]

Happy birthday to ya.

I wouldnt buy a computer from the parts store. You could probably get a known good one off the forums for half that or less, or maybe try PMing ShelGame or contact him through his site BoostButton.com and see if he could get you one. He modifies the computers people mail in but might have a core to fix up and sell you for less than the parts store wants for stock. :)

[Luvless]

Thanks man.
I have a couple other tests to check out from another forum I am in that people have mentioned. After that, I will be on the hunt if they don't work out....

[Luvless]

[QUOTE=Vigo;840296]
But, since you have a fuel pressure gauge now, there is an easy test to do. Run the fuel pump until it comes up to max pressure (doesnt matter what it is, 40 or 55 etc, just whatever it stops rising at), and then turn off the pump and see how far and how fast the pressure drops. The pump has a check valve in its outlet so it should hold pressure and drop very slowly. If everything is correct it should only drop 20 psi after 20 minutes or so. If it drops fairly quick, like all gone after a minute or so, then use some vice grips to gently pinch off the fuel supply hose going to the rail, and then turn off the pump IMMEDIATELY afterwards (dont let it run like that, it will either pop an old hose somewhere or hurt the pump). With the supply line pinched off, if it's still dropping fast than you probably have leaking injectors, and i would suspect #1 based on the symptoms you described. If so, you can then verify it visually by pulling the rail and just looking at all the injectors. Dont turn on the key to do this test, just jump the pump and see what comes out of the injectors with the car completely off.
QUOTE]

I am going to check this out tomorrow and see what happens. When I have it cranked on, the fuel pressure bounces all over, and then it drops SUPER fast when the key is off. I am going to pinch the line and see what happens.

---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 AM ----------

"As for the 'it wont stay running' thing, that's not your fuel pressure or your fouled plug. 40psi of fuel pressure and 1 fouled plug will not keep this car from starting. The easiest way to verify whether this is a computer control issue or a fuel issue is to have someone crank the car while you spray starting fluid into the throttle body. You should be able to keep the engine running with starting fluid no matter WHAT the fuel system is doing. However, if the engine shuts off after the same amount of time or under the same conditions even with starting fluid, it is a controls (computer, sensors, harness) issue."

I can get it to run but not well on starting fluid. It puts out a ton of black smoke as well... Since I have never used starting fluid, is that normal?

[Luvless]

I have 5 or 6 tests lined up from people mentioning things to me. I will check those out, and if those don't pan out, and I have no other ideas, I will be on the hunt for an SBEC.

[RoadWarrior222]

I'd be figuring the black smoke for too much fuel.

[Vigo]

Yeh the smoke is too much fuel, and the starting fluid wont do that. Im guessing thats associated with your cyl #1 problem.

[Luvless]

That is what I am assuming because even the smoke smells like gas. I have cleaned the plugs off several times and they are now starting to all go black, except for number 4. This is after cranking on it about 20 - 3- times and having it "run" for 3-4 seconds at a time. After I get it to run a little, the smoke starts to turn grey, not black, so I am assuming it is cleaning up. I am gonna be pulling the fuel rail and checking out the injectors tomorrow.

[Luvless]

maybe we figure out if you have the right computer? is there a part number on it? if you take it apart you;ll see the flash memory chip it will have 3 numbers on it to identify the programming.

so starts and dies now? id check the map sensor vacuum line.
I checked the flash memory chip code and it says 781. Any idea what that means?

[Luvless]

But, since you have a fuel pressure gauge now, there is an easy test to do. Run the fuel pump until it comes up to max pressure (doesnt matter what it is, 40 or 55 etc, just whatever it stops rising at), and then turn off the pump and see how far and how fast the pressure drops. The pump has a check valve in its outlet so it should hold pressure and drop very slowly. If everything is correct it should only drop 20 psi after 20 minutes or so. If it drops fairly quick, like all gone after a minute or so, then use some vice grips to gently pinch off the fuel supply hose going to the rail, and then turn off the pump IMMEDIATELY afterwards (dont let it run like that, it will either pop an old hose somewhere or hurt the pump). With the supply line pinched off, if it's still dropping fast than you probably have leaking injectors, and i would suspect #1 based on the symptoms you described. If so, you can then verify it visually by pulling the rail and just looking at all the injectors. Dont turn on the key to do this test, just jump the pump and see what comes out of the injectors with the car completely off.


So I turned the key to on with the pressure gauge tapped into the fuel rail. It doesn't move until I crank on it. When I crank on it, it bounces up to 50 PSI. Once it was there, I crimped the fuel supply line, as well as the return line, and it still drops in pressure. The pressure drops VERY fast. It will lose all the pressure in less than 5 seconds. I am gonna head back over to the van tomorrow and pull the fuel rail, then check out the injectors. I am thinking I have some leaky injectors. I will post what I find tomorrow.

[Vigo]

Sounds like you are moving right along with the diagnosis. Keep us updated! :)

[Luvless]

Well, I pulled the fuel rail. When I tried to see what the injectors were doing, I got nothing out of any of them except for number 1. I had my girlfriend turn it over for 5 seconds, and when I checked how much fuel had come out, it had let out 1/2 Teaspoon. It did not shoot out, it kind of dribbled out. But it was the only one to release any fuel. I checked voltage at all the injectors, and I had voltage that bounced around at all of the injectors, except for number 1, which had constant voltage. I am not sure what that is about. I am also unsure of why only number one let any fuel out.
Ideas?

[Vigo]

Were you cranking with all the injector wiring still hooked up, or cranking with the injectors disconnected just to get fuel pressure?

If you clamped both inlet and outlet lines from the rail and still dropped pressure during your earlier test, it cannot go anywhere except out your injectors (unless the hoses were not fully clamped). Sounds like #1 is leaking at least some.

As far as the voltage goes, it should be a relatively steady supply voltage anytime the ASD relay is engaged. The injectors are switched on the ground side and have a constant power (as long as ASD is on). So, unless you were watching voltage ACROSS the injector connector (one probe in each terminal) there should be no reason for the supply voltage to fluctuate very much. I will let you clarify where you had the meter hooked up before i venture any wild guesses. :p

[Luvless]

Were you cranking with all the injector wiring still hooked up, or cranking with the injectors disconnected just to get fuel pressure?

If you clamped both inlet and outlet lines from the rail and still dropped pressure during your earlier test, it cannot go anywhere except out your injectors (unless the hoses were not fully clamped). Sounds like #1 is leaking at least some.

As far as the voltage goes, it should be a relatively steady supply voltage anytime the ASD relay is engaged. The injectors are switched on the ground side and have a constant power (as long as ASD is on). So, unless you were watching voltage ACROSS the injector connector (one probe in each terminal) there should be no reason for the supply voltage to fluctuate very much. I will let you clarify where you had the meter hooked up before i venture any wild guesses. :p

I had my girlfriend cranking on it while I had one injector hooked up so I could see how much fuel was coming out of the injectors at a time.

That was what I was testing for. I wanted to see if they were leaking, and it looked like it was.

I had ALL of the injectors disconnected, and then put the leads from the voltmeter on the wiring coming from the ECU. That is why I assumed that the voltage would bounce around.

[Vigo]

Yeh, it is actually a on-off signal but the meter is not fast enough to keep up so it will show you numbers in between. There is something called a noid light that some of the parts stores will rent you, that clicks into the injector connector and is just like a test light for injectors (has to be fast). You can use those to tell if the signal is consistent, or if it drops out when you tug on wiring, etc.

[Luvless]

The voltmeter was bouncing all over the place, except for number 1, which was a constant 1.5 V if I remember correctly.

[Vigo]

That is somewhat suspicious. I would call the parts stores that rent tools and see if you can rent some noid lights for it. Usually you get your deposit back so it is free to rent.

[RoadWarrior222]

If you've got or can borrow a DVM with duty cycle mode on it, or dwell, you can try those to see if it gives a stable figure or is all over the place.

[Luvless]

I am gonna check into the tool rental thing and see what happens.

[Luvless]

So I sent my SBEC off for a rebuild, and it came back and said that they can NOT rebuild it. I will check around for another one, but if I can not find a good one, a rebuildable core, or someone to give me $500 for it, I will have to sell it to pick n pull. Let me know what you guys can do.

[Luvless]

I have a used SBEC on the way from Chicago. I will not be sellin it after all!!

[Vigo]

Glad to hear it!! Hopefully you can start enjoying this thing soon!

[Luvless]

ME TO!!! I can't wait!! I had a 95, with the 3.3 and HORIBLE automatic trans, but I loved it!!

[Luvless]

FINALLY got the SBEC in the mail today, and put it in..... Still wont start. It is no longer running super rich, but it still starts and shuts down. I have checked and fixed all the vacuum leaks.
I am thinking it could be the ASD relay, but I have no idea how to check it. I pulled it off, and checked resistance, and two of the 4 terminals have continuity, but the others are open. I am not sure if that is ok or what. Is there a way to check the ASD, or do I have to buy a new one? I also am not sure if it could be the hall effect pickup in the distributor. My manual says that there is no way to check that, so I am curious if anyone knows how to check that. I am assuming that is what sends the signal to the ASD since it is what sends the signal to the ECM.
Anyone else have any ideas....?

[turbovanman²]

You can't test a relay per say, resistance checks are futile, lol, just replace it. The computer turns on the ASD relay which powers up the coil, fuel pump etc.

HEP's unless you have a labscope can't be tested, so again, buy or get a good OEM only, DO NOT buy aftermarket, they are junk and can be bad out of the box, has happened to me too many times to count, even though I warned my customers.

[Luvless]

Gotcha. Which one would you recommend replacing first? The relay, or the HEP? I have little to no money to be swappin parts for fun, so an educated guess would be good. Which of those two goes out more often?

[RoadWarrior222]

Personally, I'd mistrust the HEP first, seems like they can go out every two or three years, whereas the ASD relay is once or twice in it's lifetime. Plus it seems you have some sort of functionality out of the ASD relay, or it wouldn't start.

[Luvless]

Well, I kept tryin to get it to start, and every time, it would seem like it was getting closer to running longer. I kept hearing what I thought was a hiss, and I assumed a missed vaccum leak. So I looked around, and inspected the vaccum harness for the millionth time, and saw that the PCV was sitting in the hose a little funny, so I pulled it out, shook it to make sure it was still good, and then put it back in. Went to try it again, and it fired right up, and ran!! I kept my foot on the gas to make sure it would stay running, and it did even after I took my foot off the pedal.
I pulled the PCV again, and cleaned it with carb cleaner, and then put it back on. Hooked up the air cleaner, and fired it back up!! It runs, and idles nicely, and I am waiting to take it to the gas station tomorrow so I can get some premium gas and then take it to DMV Monday!!!
Smog will have to be done, and I think an oil change since it sat for so long, and the oil is black as night. I might change the plugs since they look old and dirty. They are Bosch Platinums, but I have never really liked those plugs. So, plugs, and oil, and this should be ready to rock and roll!!!! I CANT WAIT TO DRIVE IT!!!!

I want to thank EVERYONE who has read this and answered any part of it, wanted to help, but had no ideas, or threw out ideas even if they were grasping at straws!! It took me awhile, but I finally got this bad boy running!! THANK YOU ALL!!!!