Next Project - What to put in it?

[ShelGame]

So, next weekend, I'm planning to pick up my next project car. It was originally a '90 VNT Daytona, but the engine and trans are gone. I'm on the fence about what to put in it. For starters, this will be a daily driver, so I'm only looking for something capable of ~250hp reliably. OK, maybe 300 :)

I have several common blocks and a couple of tall deck blocks in the garage. But, I only have 2.5 cranks. I also have a set of 3.5" bore Wiseco forged T3 pistons (short compression height) that I got specifically for the TD blocks. I already have a set of race-prepped T2 rods, ARP head studs, and some other performance parts. To do this, I'd want to use a 2.2 crank, which will require some seriously long (ie, custom, $$$) rods. Like 6.6" by my calculations - that gives ~1.8 rod ratio. And, the pistons would need to be modified a little to reduce the dish. I'd love to put a T3 head on this, but I don't think I have the $$$ for that right now. Even with a 2.5 T3, I'd still need custom rods (the TD rods are basically long LW rods - not good for anything) so it would be too expensive for me right now to go T3.

At one point, I had my heart set on a 2.4/420a engine for my race car, but I gave up on that a couple years ago and sold everything off. I'd still like to do it, though. I could use the race-prepped T2 rods I already have, and get some forged pistons for it. I'd run the head stock and stock 420a intake, treadstone 420a cast turbo manifold and a mild turbo. Plus, using a 2.4 would allow me to run an A604. I've been wanting to get into re-calibrating those and this would be a good test-bed. It will be 5-speed first, though. Only downsides I can think of are the motor mount fabrication (not too bad) and getting the distributor setup on the end of the head (also not too bad). I also have a line on a PT 2.4 shortblock. But, no ideas on 420a heads yet.

Also, I've been toying with the idea of a supercharged/injected 2.5 using the turbo 1-pc/fuel rail/etc. Basically, swapping the turbo for an Eaton M90 and a header. The biggest downside to this idea is the massive amount of fabrication I'd have to do for the accessory and supercharger drives - lot's of custom pulleys.

Finally, I have a line on a 2.2 T2 CB shortblock for a decent price. Plus side here is, I have everything else needed to put this together. Basically, a near restoration. I'd use a T2 Garret rather than a VNT turbo, I think. I just don't have much interest in the VNT turbos.

FWIW, the rest of the car is very nice. Not concours or anything, but nice.

So, what do you think I should put into this VNT Daytona?


1) 2.3L Tall Deck, Big Bore 8v Turbo

2) 2.4/420a Turbo

3) 2.5 TD/CB Supercharged

4) 2.2 T2

[1BADVAN]

My vote would be 2.4/420a, sounds like the best for power obviously, but the most expensive.

The 2.2 T2 would be my 2nd choice. I have daily driven an 87 GLHS for the past 3 years, I love the day in, day out reliability, easy to get parts,like belts and water pumps. and can have a fun amount of power at the same time. It also sounds like it would be almost free, with all the parts you have on hand.

[ShelGame]

My vote would be 2.4/420a, sounds like the best for power obviously, but the most expensive.

Why do you think it would be the most expensive? It would be mostly a stock-type build. A little research over on neons.org leads me to beleive it may be possible to bore a 2.4 block out to fit my T3 3.5" pistons (0.055" overbore). If that's the case, then I may lean heavily toward the 2.4 DOHC 420a option - which would become a 2.5l with that bore - 89.0mm x 101.0mm

I actually think the 2.3 Big bore tall deck would be the most expensive just due to the fact that it would need some seriously custom rods. Those alone are probably $500.


The 2.2 T2 would be my 2nd choice. I have daily driven an 87 GLHS for the past 3 years, I love the day in, day out reliability, easy to get parts,like belts and water pumps. and can have a fun amount of power at the same time. It also sounds like it would be almost free, with all the parts you have on hand.

The only reason I would be interested in this is because I think the 2.2 would be so smooth to drive daily. I'm always impressed with how smooth the 2.2 T3 is our R/T. I dunno if a 2.2 8v can be that smooth, but I bet it would be with PT lifters and a good roller cam.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I'd go w/ the 2.4 if it is going to be a full-weight street car. I love my 2.2's but in a heavy car like a Daytona the extra torque of the bigger engines is nice in traffic. In fact, I am planning on going to a 2.4 w/ a 420A head in my '87 in the next year or so. I have all the parts except for a dizzy adapter and know how to mod/make the motor mounts.

[135sohc]

2.4, 4spd automatic. Be the next pioneer and do something different.

[ShelGame]

2.4, 4spd automatic. Be the next pioneer and do something different.

The other nice thing about that is that it makes AWD easier :eyebrows:

I'd start with a 5-speed, though, just to get it running ASAP. Then start collecting a604 parts...

[1BADVAN]

Why do you think it would be the most expensive? It would be mostly a stock-type build. A little research over on neons.org leads me to beleive it may be possible to bore a 2.4 block out to fit my T3 3.5" pistons (0.055" overbore). If that's the case, then I may lean heavily toward the 2.4 DOHC 420a option - which would become a 2.5l with that bore - 89.0mm x 101.0mm

I actually think the 2.3 Big bore tall deck would be the most expensive just due to the fact that it would need some seriously custom rods. Those alone are probably $500.



The only reason I would be interested in this is because I think the 2.2 would be so smooth to drive daily. I'm always impressed with how smooth the 2.2 T3 is our R/T. I dunno if a 2.2 8v can be that smooth, but I bet it would be with PT lifters and a good roller cam.

Sorry i was thinking it would be more expensive than the 2.2, cause you have to buy alot of the parts, and fab mounts and stuff. i didn't even really evaluate the 2.3 or supercharged.


About wanting it smooth for a 2.2, IDK but would balancing the motor smooth it out? (at least here it costs about $150) or you could go 2.5 with the balance shafts make it pretty smooth, but probably worse gas mileage.

I think from what you are saying the 2.4 is what sounds the funnest to you cause you can play with the tranny computers, potential AWD, and you seem to have access to alot of the stuff locally

[ShelGame]

Sorry i was thinking it would be more expensive than the 2.2, cause you have to buy alot of the parts, and fab mounts and stuff. i didn't even really evaluate the 2.3 or supercharged.


About wanting it smooth for a 2.2, IDK but would balancing the motor smooth it out? (at least here it costs about $150) or you could go 2.5 with the balance shafts make it pretty smooth, but probably worse gas mileage.

You know, just for comparison, the engine in my race Daytona is fully balanced; has no balance shafts; and is extremely smooth running. The engine I put in my minivan was a plain-jane stock 2.5. I did not get anything balanced (though all the parts came from the same used 2.5 engine), and I did run the balance shafts. The race Daytona is smoother running than the van was. At least in terms of vibration felt at idle. The balance shafts shouldn't really affect fuel economy. They don't take any power to run, they're just extra rotating mass, so they will affect acceleration somewhat.


I think from what you are saying the 2.4 is what sounds the funnest to you cause you can play with the tranny computers, potential AWD, and you seem to have access to alot of the stuff locally

If the 2.4 in fact can take a 3.5" bore, then I think I have to lean that way. I really have all the parts except for the core engine/head. And someone offered to deliver a bottom end to SDAC for me for a good price. I would have to buy a head, intake manifold, and exhaust manifold. Plus, pay for the machine work on the shortblock (bore, deck, steam clean). So, it's not exactly cheap for sure.

[ShelGame]

Well, it looks like the current poll results favor an 8v tall deck.

But, I think I'm going to go with the 2.4/420a. I found these pics in my stash of saved pics of a set of 4 Mexican Stratus R/T pistons/rods. Damned if they don't look a whole lot like T2 rods with 2.5 T1 Mahle pistons on them (although with 4 valve reliefs).
31727
Not sure where the pic originally came from...

I have like 6 0.02" over 2.5 Mahle's in my stash in the garage. And a set of barely used 0.04" over 2.5 Mahles. I'll probably go with the 0.02" over - seems to be a little safer with the 2.4 block. Deck the block 0.8mm (~0.03") and deck the head 0.01" to bring the pistons up a little closer to the deck and give 8.0:1 compression. I'll add the valve reliefs in the piston tops if I have to. 420a head, cams, intake, 52mm TB, aftermarket cast iron turbo exhaust. Not sure what to use for a turbo yet. Knowing me, I'll just go with a stock T2 or T3 turbo or a slight upgrade from that. I want NO turbo lag.

[forcedfedmopar]

I vote 2.4! So when i do my 2.4 youll already have a good knowlage of performance cals for them!....im selfish

[moparman76_69]

I have like 6 0.02" over 2.5 Mahle's in my stash in the garage. And a set of barely used 0.04" over 2.5 Mahles.

You want to part with any of those?

EDIT for relevance:

I voted 2.4/420A as that's where I'm headed with the van and I could copy your build and let you work the bugs out lol.

[speedfreek500]

Very tough call.... 250-300hp any of these motors you are talking about can do it pretty easy, so i would build the one that you have the most parts for. I would just do a pro's and con's list and pick from there. The awd and or overdrive would be a very cool option but some hair pulling and head stratching of course.

Brian

[ShelGame]

I vote 2.4! So when i do my 2.4 youll already have a good knowlage of performance cals for them!....im selfish

Another good reason to do one myself!

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------


You want to part with any of those?

EDIT for relevance:

I voted 2.4/420A as that's where I'm headed with the van and I could copy your build and let you work the bugs out lol.

Nope, lol. I collect them for spares for my Daytona race car. The 0.04" over ones in particular are slated to the next race engine build for the silver Daytona. I got them from FM a few years ago. Apparently they only used them on the dyno. They look very good.

I was really wanting to do something with the TD blocks I have, but I think they'll have to wait. The oddball 3.5" bore pistons I have will be perfect for them with a Lotus head. So, I'll hold onto them until I can scrounge up the $$$ for a Lotus build. I couldn't make the math work for a 2.4 at all with those pistons...

[forcedfedmopar]

[QUOTE=ShelGame;819928]Another good reason to do one myself![COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

Say if you were to do this. Would you use your stock SMEC/SBEC and make that work with the 2.4? I hope so as this is what i want to do. I assume you would also run a distributor as well?

[ShelGame]

[QUOTE=ShelGame;819928]Another good reason to do one myself![COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

Say if you were to do this. Would you use your stock SMEC/SBEC and make that work with the 2.4? I hope so as this is what i want to do. I assume you would also run a distributor as well?

This car is a '90 VNT Daytona, so I will be running the T1 SBEC. I have my own ideas about modifying the distributor for the end of the cam (lower profile setup), but it will run a distributor.

[tinyturbo]

Im surprised no one has mentioned the fact that .060 overbore on a td block is getting awfully thin on the cylinders.

Once you go 16 valve you will never go back, the potential is there to make 50% more power than any 8 valve and the cylinder head is the heart and soul of the engine everything else like bore size and rod lengths are trivial in comparison

[shackwrrr]

I voted TD supercharged because its different. Get a decent rebuilt blower off a 3800 and build from there.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Pretty much the same setup I have planned. I like the 420A top end cause it puts the TB almost right in the stock location. Pretty much the only sensor wires that aren't close to where you need them are the coil wires, as if the dizzy is moved to the back of the head, the coil will need to be moved to driver side (unless you want to run a really long coil wire :) ).

Although actually, you may not even have that problem, if the '90 has the coil mounted on the t-stat housing then your coil wires are probably going to be almost just right also.

Not sure what turbo I'm gonna run, been thinking of a 14 or 16G.

[bakes]

I vote 2.5 tall deck 2.5 crank with the 2.5 mex 4v pistons and a420 head just get some custom h beams made for it.

[Vigo]

I voted for the supercharger because i've yet to see anyone do a supercharged 2.2/2.5 with a right-sized supercharger except for one guy who didnt push it very hard.


2.4, 4spd automatic. Be the next pioneer and do something different.

There's already a 2.4/4spd omni running around.

[ShelGame]

I voted for the supercharger because i've yet to see anyone do a supercharged 2.2/2.5 with a right-sized supercharger except for one guy who didnt push it very hard.



There's already a 2.4/4spd omni running around.

Really? Link(s)?

[Vigo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL6v1h6jog&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[ShelGame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL6v1h6jog&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Oh, Una's old Omni. I didn't realize he MegaSquirted the A604 also...

[Force Fed Mopar]

I voted for the supercharger because i've yet to see anyone do a supercharged 2.2/2.5 with a right-sized supercharger except for one guy who didnt push it very hard.





What would the right size be?

[ShelGame]

What would the right size be?

An M62 would have been plenty big enough for me. They're capable of about 250-275hp, I think. The M90 would also probably work, but they're good for ~350hp (maybe more). And I wouldn't be looking for that much. I think an M62 from an early 3.8 TurboCoupe would work well. But, the fabrication involved in the accessory drive and S/C mounting (to run the stock 1-pc intake) would be too much. It would have to be injected for it to be interesting to me, and I'd want to use as many stock parts as possible. Hence the 1-pc intake restriction. On the other hand, most S/C setups for injection are draw-thru. So, I suppose it could be done with a log intake. Maybe even the old DC over-the-top IC and reversed intake. Wasn't there one of those for sale on here? Hmm....

[Vigo]

I would say given the power levels we tend to easily reach with turbo that an m90 wouldnt be out of place, but an m62 would be less lossy for lower hp goals. There is one guy who put an m62 on a 2.2, supercharged024. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3330158/1982-plymouth-turismo/page-2
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?54456-82-Turism-2.2-Supercharged-2000&highlight=

[BadAssPerformance]

Poll decided... Project thread HERE (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?60025-1990-VNT-Daytona-2.4-Project)