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View Full Version : Planning for the next project... how hard to put the Neon 5-sp in a Daytona?



ShelGame
05-31-2011, 11:15 PM
OK, so I'm planning for my next project. I've been wanting to do a 2.4 swap for a while and I think I have the right car coming my way in June. I would prefer to keep the starter up front in the stock 2.4 location. So, a 2.0/2.4 trans is the way I'm planning to go. My choices are, A413, A604, and the Neon 5-sp (whatever it's designation, t850?). I'd prefer the 5-speed for fuel economy reasons. So, what's the biggest issue with installing the Neon 5-sp in a Daytona with a 2.4? What do you use for the drivers side mount?

EDIT: So, it appears that the PT's Getrag might also be a candidate. How do the mounts work for that one? And, I guess the 5-sp from the Neon is the T-350 (T-850 is a 6-speed?).

What did the Avenger/Eclipse/Talon use for a trans?

135sohc
05-31-2011, 11:29 PM
Will the T850 fit into the K based engine bay ? Everywhere I have read about it its always noted as being a physically massive unit compared to our old school NP units.

ShelGame
05-31-2011, 11:34 PM
Will the T850 fit into the K based engine bay ? Everywhere I have read about it its always noted as being a physically massive unit compared to our old school NP units.

Yeah, I meant T-350. The T-850 is the SRT-4 trans I think...

bakes
05-31-2011, 11:46 PM
Jt needs to chime in here and turboshad as they have done most of the foot work here.

Mopar318
05-31-2011, 11:55 PM
Considering that the T350 is much weaker than the Getrag series transmissions, I would stay with the old trans. Is starter placement the only issue?

ShelGame
06-01-2011, 09:33 AM
Yeah, I'm leaning toward the 288 from the PT Cruisers. I want to keep things as factory as possible. It's not that I don't want to do custom parts, but I'm going to drive this everyday and want to be able to go buy spare parts if I have to (without having to modify anything to get it to fit). I dunno, it's just a thing in my head right now that I want to use a trans that matches the engine completely.

And, yes, I really hate the starter on the back of the engine.

Another possibility is to use the A604. I've been wanting to learn how to hack the trans controller anyway. Plus, the challenge of integrating the trans controller and harness into a T1 SBEC engine bay sounds interesting to me (the car is a 90 Daytona). I could use the harness from a V6/A604 to steal the trans circuits from; turn on the CCD bus in the SBEC and see what happens. But, I still think the 5-sp would be more fuel efficient...

contraption22
06-01-2011, 11:51 AM
If you're concerned about fuel economy, I would find a 3.55 FD trans from a 1st gen SOHC Neon (non ACR). They can take more of a beating than people give them credit for, and they really shift nicely for daily driving.

ShelGame
06-01-2011, 02:12 PM
If you're concerned about fuel economy, I would find a 3.55 FD trans from a 1st gen SOHC Neon (non ACR). They can take more of a beating than people give them credit for, and they really shift nicely for daily driving.

That's not a bad idea. I'm not planning huge power anyway. Just somewhere north of 250hp, but probably still shy of 300. And, I doubt I will race it. So, no drag launches. The early Neon trans is probably easier to find, too.

22mopar
06-01-2011, 06:36 PM
seems to be some confusion. I don't see any difference between a Getrag and the New venture T-350. infact I used the internals from a Getrag 282 out of a 1993 grand am in a neon t-350 housing to get the right gear ratio for a race car.

T850 is a limited slip diff in an SRT4. a T550 is the trans found in GM cars like Olds alero, grand am, etc.

We've been running neon's for quite some time and found the biggest problem is eating 3rd gear syncro's

glhs0426
06-01-2011, 07:25 PM
From what I remember the 288 out of a PT GT uses different spline axles. It is a very tough transaxle. The reason the 288 was chosen for a PT GT was the physical size. The T850 would not fit the PT and the T350 could not make it (out of warranty).

If you use a T350 you might consider a PT version of the T350. Why? The PT weighs quite a bit (3100lbs) compared to the Neon which weighed in about 400lbs less (2600lbs). It was designated T355 due to a few internal upgrades such as the needle bearing on third gear and a few other small improvements to deal with the weight. It also has a slightly higher effective ratio in 5th compared to a 2.0L SOHC trans due to the higher OD ratio.

PT 3.94FD X .72OD = 2.83
SOHC 3.55FD X .81OD = 2.87

22mopar
06-02-2011, 08:49 AM
The PT trans has the same gear ratio as the Neon DOHC trans both are 3.94:1 all the transmissions use the same splines (I put 1989 automatic omni axles into a neon trans when I changed the front spindles on my neon to use K-car (MUCH stronger). the hub spline on the neon is much smaller than everything else.

contraption22
06-02-2011, 09:43 AM
the hub spline on the neon is much smaller than everything else.

But if you use 2nd Gen Neon axles, the hub splines are the same as TM's.

22mopar
06-02-2011, 01:00 PM
I didn't know that. the problem with neon spindles is they are WEAK. the steering arm (for tie rod) is 1/2 the thickness of the k-car spindle. not good for racing.

BadAssPerformance
06-02-2011, 01:21 PM
Jt needs to chime in here and turboshad as they have done most of the foot work here.

We are both running A568's tho...

The 2.4L to the old trans is fairly easy, regaardless of trans choice, mounts will need to be customized. I need to clean up my mounts a bit but was then going to either do a GB on them or talk to Johnny about making them...

contraption22
06-02-2011, 07:54 PM
I didn't know that. the problem with neon spindles is they are WEAK. the steering arm (for tie rod) is 1/2 the thickness of the k-car spindle. not good for racing.

The 2nd gens are beefier.

ShelGame
06-02-2011, 08:27 PM
The 2nd gens are beefier.

I don't think the whole spline thing is an issue. I'll be using '90 Daytona spindles. Daytona axles will work with any of the Neon trans', right? Same length, same inner spline, etc.?

22mopar
06-02-2011, 09:56 PM
That I can't answer yet. I have a 2.4 in my neon with a Getrag 282 trans that I used the neon bellhousing and spider gears then used 89 omni axles and K-car spindles since the neon spindles stuck even in gen 2 they are not as beefy as the old stuff plus the bearing hold up a lot better in the old hubs over the neon hubs.

I'm going to be looking at doing a 2.4 SOHC motor in a sundance and use a 523 trans. w/3.77 diff.

glhs0426
06-04-2011, 10:10 PM
One thing I forgot to mention was the 1st gen Neon/Stratus sedan stuff is cable clutch linkage. The talon, second gen Neon, and PT were hydraulic clutch release. You can swap the bellhousing side, but you need to setup the carrier bearing preload if you do the bellhousing swap.

ShelGame
06-05-2011, 07:52 AM
One thing I forgot to mention was the 1st gen Neon/Stratus sedan stuff is cable clutch linkage. The talon, second gen Neon, and PT were hydraulic clutch release. You can swap the bellhousing side, but you need to setup the carrier bearing preload if you do the bellhousing swap.

That's good to know. I wasn't looking forward to converting the car to hydraulic clutch...

Aries_Turbo
06-05-2011, 08:36 AM
get a neon 413 trans mount and a g body 413 mount. put them side by side and measure the difference in the bolt location that bolts it to the body. should be pretty close.

Heath (turbododgepirate) was in the process of putting a 2.4L and a t350 in a charger. i dont know if he did any measuring but he did have it hanging in there on the stock neon mount. i know the l body mounts are different but it didnt look that far off from stock.

brian

ShelGame
06-20-2011, 03:07 PM
What about the clutch? If I use a T350 (current direction for me), what flywheel/clutch can I use. I thought I had read that a TD flywheel will bolt tot he 2.4. Can I then just use a TD clutch? Or is the T350 input shaft different?

Aries_Turbo
06-20-2011, 05:33 PM
t350 input shaft is the same as a large spline 568.

the neon flywheel/flexplate/starter ring gear are a smaller diameter than our stuff as the bellhousing is tighter inside. you cant use our stuff.

you have a few choices for clutches.

1. srt clutch attached to the neon flexplate with the outside of the flywheel portion turned down a little bit to clear the t350 case.

2. aftermarket neon clutches.

3. 95 neon FLYWHEEL with the step height changed a little deeper, a spirit turbo disc and a audi pressure plate. holds great power, has great pedal feel etc. a friend of mine has this clutch in his eclipse turbo 420A. he loves it. http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=Audi/VW_Pressure_Plate

id go with #3.

ShelGame
06-20-2011, 06:59 PM
t350 input shaft is the same as a large spline 568.

3. 95 neon FLYWHEEL with the step height changed a little deeper, a spirit turbo disc and a audi pressure plate. holds great power, has great pedal feel etc. a friend of mine has this clutch in his eclipse turbo 420A. he loves it. http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=Audi/VW_Pressure_Plate

id go with #3.

Sounds good to me. The Audi PP bolts onto the Neon flywheel? Or it needs to be re-drilled?

glhs0426
06-20-2011, 09:28 PM
Sounds good to me. The Audi PP bolts onto the Neon flywheel? Or it needs to be re-drilled?

From reading the article posted "slightly modified" is more like it for the PP. The dowel pin holes need to be enlarged and the attaching bolt holes made into a "U".

Most new flywheels for the 1995 Neon can be had for under $70. I would not bother searching for a used one since they were only a 1yr deal. Make sure you specify non-modular when purchasing a flywheel.

turboshad
06-22-2011, 02:43 PM
Just somewhere north of 250hp, but probably still shy of 300.

Stop thinking 8 valve. :eyebrows:


We are both running A568's tho...

The 2.4L to the old trans is fairly easy, regaardless of trans choice, mounts will need to be customized. I need to clean up my mounts a bit but was then going to either do a GB on them or talk to Johnny about making them...

Yes, I'm running an A568. The one thing I liked about it is I was able to use the tranny mount to help get the engine situated in the bay. Then I just lined it up, took measurements and made the other two mounts. The tranny mount I'm using is completely unmodified short of the poly I poured into it. That being said, if I ever grenade the 568 I only have one more for parts and then there is a T850 on my floor that will go in. Just sitting there it doesn't look all that much bigger but I've never tried to mock it in the car. They do have a few problems but the later ones come stock with a quaife and you would probably be fine with your new goal of 350hp. ;) I doubt that was any help at all but that's all I got. :D

zin
06-22-2011, 03:00 PM
Seems the elephant in the room is the starter location. That is will the block allow it to bolt up? In my conversations with Carlos (Lotsaboost,RIP) ,he seemed to think the block would present a problem, which was one of the reasons why he went with a full 2.4/trans conversion. I think it can be done, but the starter may have to be converted to trans mounted.

I'm voting for the 604 for my own selfish reasons, bet you can guess why! It is a strong design, but had /has poor programing, which would be what Rob would be fixing!

Mike

ShelGame
06-22-2011, 03:00 PM
Stop thinking 8 valve. :eyebrows:

I know, but it's just a daily driver and I'm NOT going all out on the internals of the engine. I'm using 0.02" over 2.5 T1 Mahles and ARP'd and shot peened T2 rods. I'll probably only run 93 octance (maybe I'll try E85). I don't think I'm going to push much more than 16-18psi with this on the street.


Yes, I'm running an A568. The one thing I liked about it is I was able to use the tranny mount to help get the engine situated in the bay. Then I just lined it up, took measurements and made the other two mounts. The tranny mount I'm using is completely unmodified short of the poly I poured into it. That being said, if I ever grenade the 568 I only have one more for parts and then there is a T850 on my floor that will go in. Just sitting there it doesn't look all that much bigger but I've never tried to mock it in the car. They do have a few problems but the later ones come stock with a quaife and you would probably be fine with your new goal of 350hp. ;) I doubt that was any help at all but that's all I got. :D

I'm going with the T350 because of availability, it's a bolt-in, and the fact that it's a cable clutch trans. Sounds like there's a decent solution to the clutch issue posted above...

moparman76_69
06-22-2011, 06:50 PM
Seems the elephant in the room is the starter location. That is will the block allow it to bolt up? In my conversations with Carlos (Lotsaboost,RIP) ,he seemed to think the block would present a problem, which was one of the reasons why he went with a full 2.4/trans conversion. I think it can be done, but the starter may have to be converted to trans mounted.

I'm voting for the 604 for my own selfish reasons, bet you can guess why! It is a strong design, but had /has poor programing, which would be what Rob would be fixing!

Mike

Carlos had a 555/520 hybrid with the AWD diff mated to the 2.4. The issue is with the 8v block and AWD PTU.

zin
06-23-2011, 12:09 AM
Actually, it was a 568, not that it really matters. I didn't realize Rob was doing a full swap, I was thinking hybrid-head ...

Mike

ShelGame
06-23-2011, 09:02 AM
Actually, it was a 568, not that it really matters. I didn't realize Rob was doing a full swap, I was thinking hybrid-head ...

Mike

It's kind of a hybrid - 2.4 shortblock with a 420a head...

BadAssPerformance
06-23-2011, 03:00 PM
I'm going with the T350 because of availability, it's a bolt-in, and the fact that it's a cable clutch trans. Sounds like there's a decent solution to the clutch issue posted above...

A568's are available.... whats the price difference between a A568 and T350? The last one of each I bought were about the same. Whats the cost to rebuild? About the same... Availability of more is good, but if it is a DD, then why do you need more than one?

Aries_Turbo
06-23-2011, 03:06 PM
just in case ^^^^ :)

you also have to factor in modifying the front mount/dowel pin area.

Brian

Force Fed Mopar
06-23-2011, 04:37 PM
I bought a T350 cable-clutch trans for $35 bucks :)

zin
06-23-2011, 07:21 PM
It's kind of a hybrid - 2.4 shortblock with a 420a head...

It's a hybrid hybrid!:eyebrows:

Mike

135sohc
06-24-2011, 03:07 AM
....



A568's are available


At what cost ? Buy one and you'll need parts from god knows how many donors to fix all the just about guaranteed damage you'll come across.



whats the price difference between a A568 and T350?


The average 'street price' for an A568 is now $300-$500+ for the typical used and abused unit out there. Discount all the inside wheeling and dealing, friend of friend and 'good buddy' pricing. I hope a t350 hasnt gone that far up yet ?



Whats the cost to rebuild


Define 'rebuild' ;) you can 'rebuild' one of our 5spds for about $40+ shipping from rockauto. Since that $40 worth of parts is just about all you can really buy anymore.



Not trying to be the doom and gloom bearer of bad news but you know thats the reality we have now. I'd love to see a newer transmission fitted into our old school platform. If it gives more options and a better availability now and in the future why not ?

Vigo
06-24-2011, 11:25 AM
Just to answer an unanswered question, the 420a cars also use the regular t350, 3.92 (or 3.94? whichever that is), and i dont know if the 95 were cable or not.

That said, im ALSO voting 604. The stock internals have been proven to hold power (other than 4th) with proper controls on it. If the stock TCM is going to be cracked you're the only one here who will do it...

You can mix and match 'FD' ratios between 2.34 and 3.02 so you can make gearing as tall as you want.. keeping in mind 3.02 in 4th is the same as a 3spd in 3rd, while the first 3 gears will be WAY lower. 2.34 is taller than the tallest 2.6 3spd while still having a lower first gear you dont have to ride to 63 mph.

ShelGame
06-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Just to answer an unanswered question, the 420a cars also use the regular t350, 3.92 (or 3.94? whichever that is), and i dont know if the 95 were cable or not.

That said, im ALSO voting 604. The stock internals have been proven to hold power (other than 4th) with proper controls on it. If the stock TCM is going to be cracked you're the only one here who will do it...

You can mix and match 'FD' ratios between 2.34 and 3.02 so you can make gearing as tall as you want.. keeping in mind 3.02 in 4th is the same as a 3spd in 3rd, while the first 3 gears will be WAY lower. 2.34 is taller than the tallest 2.6 3spd while still having a lower first gear you dont have to ride to 63 mph.

I thought all the 420a cars were hydraulic clutch...

I may eventually go 604 with the car. But, I want to get it running and driving first, and I don't have the money this year to build an engine AND a transmission. So, it'll have to wait...

Vigo
06-24-2011, 11:48 AM
Well, you dont HAVE to build a used 604 just like you dont have to build a used t350. Just sayin..

But im still all for the t350 idea too. Anyone who does something thats not well documented and then documents it well is doing a service for the TM community, so the t350 thing qualifies just the same as 604.

Aries_Turbo
06-24-2011, 12:24 PM
yeah stock 604 internals will hold a gazillion hp with the controller keeping the shifts firm.... well other than 4th gear.

Brian

ShelGame
06-24-2011, 12:26 PM
yeah stock 604 internals will hold a gazillion hp with the controller keeping the shifts firm.... well other than 4th gear.

Brian

OK, so what's the deal with 4th on the 604?

Aries_Turbo
06-24-2011, 12:29 PM
less clutches holding the power when in 4th and some weak metal pieces transmitting the power iirc.

brian

Vigo
06-24-2011, 12:49 PM
yeah i think it has like.. *2* clutch plates for the 4th gear pack? If you ever see it its obvious. Plus they have a problem where after the clutches wear down a bit the piston has some kind of physical interference and binds up, so once they're worn to a certain point you start losing clamp load and they burn up even though there is still material on the clutches. Wish i could be more specific than that but i havent had to rebuild a 604 in 3+yrs and my memory is bad.

ShelGame
06-24-2011, 01:09 PM
yeah i think it has like.. *2* clutch plates for the 4th gear pack? If you ever see it its obvious. Plus they have a problem where after the clutches wear down a bit the piston has some kind of physical interference and binds up, so once they're worn to a certain point you start losing clamp load and they burn up even though there is still material on the clutches. Wish i could be more specific than that but i havent had to rebuild a 604 in 3+yrs and my memory is bad.

Are there fixes for those issues?

zin
06-24-2011, 06:52 PM
Are there fixes for those issues?

There are PTs that use this trans and make quite a bit of power, so yes... Specifics I don't got, but near as I can see, 4th is the only real weak link, and I wouldn't expect to be boosting hard in OD anyway.

With big power the input shaft might need to be upgraded, but I don't think you are looking at making that much power?

Mike

Aries_Turbo
06-24-2011, 10:35 PM
i know racerstev tried one out in his turbo neon and was running 10.0 all day long with it being controlled by that PCS aftermarket box. iirc the trans was stock after a high quality rebuild and a touch more line pressure. his car made 600+hp too. "

id just monitor the wiring that commands OD and kill boost in OD. run wastegate spring boost or whatever the minimum is.

i cant remember if there is any upgrades for OD though. im going to look. i have a 01 caravan 604 in my garage that the case is beat up from a wreck. wouldnt mind getting a cloud car box and use the best parts from both of them if there will be a DIY control scheme at some point. i know MS can be used right now but im not sure how much adaptive control is built into that. i like the factory system of accounting for wear and stuff and i dont know if the MS based trans controller system can do that for the 604.

id love a turbo 2.0L in my beater neon running the 604.

or even in my k car later when it becomes too unreasonable to get 568 parts. makes the AWD even easier too. hell, if you get a 604 rob and start hacking the brain box, id probably skip modding the 568 and just do a nice tall 604 hooked to my SRT motor with autostick if possible.

brian

bakes
06-24-2011, 10:47 PM
There is a pin you ground I think it is the brake sense and it will block out 4th just hook it to a a WOT switch on your golden.
there is a a604 tread i started some where here that covers it.

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?53385-A604-4th-gear-lock-out&highlight=a604+mod

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?53385-A604-4th-gear-lock-out&highlight=a604+mod

Vigo
06-25-2011, 12:46 AM
Are there fixes for those issues?

I think there are ways to improve the situation but not to the point that 4th gear will ever hold 400, 500hp... The thing is, nobody NEEDS to use 4th. 3rd gear will go 140@ <7000 rpm with the 'common' v6 gearing and 'normal' daytona tire diameter, and you can gear it taller than that if you want to. Even the lowest factory gearing mish-mash that i know of will still do 120@7000.