Rich @ WOT

[audiomaninc]

1987 Shelby Z 2.5L running socketed LM with Brian's 3 bar cal on it. The car runs 10.0 on the wideband all the way to 5500rpm. I'm wondering if I should remedy this problem by lowering the fuel pressure, or by doing something with the cal. Thanks for the help as always!

[BadAssPerformance]

If you can tune your own cals and you have the fuel pressure set right, do it in the cal.

Which injectors?
What base FP w/o vacuum?
How much boost at WOT?

What else is done to the car for supporting mods?

[audiomaninc]

2.5l with forged Wisecos, and balanced rotating assembly running a T04B-S trim stage 3 compressor in a T3 housing, with a T3 stage 1 turbine in a .48 housing (I know, I know...) The head is a stock swirl head with a 2 piece intake manifold and stock exhaust manifold. Currently running the stock TII intercooler setup, and 18psi boost at WOT. I've got the fuel pressure set at 55psi idle, cam timing at 0, and ignition timing at 14deg BTDC. The plugs are Champion RN9YC gapped to .025. At cruise and idle, the car is steady between 14.5 and 15.0. I have the tools to adjust the cal, just not the know how yet. Thanks!

[ShelGame]

... I've got the fuel pressure set at 55psi idle, ...

At idle with the vac line disconnected? or Connected? 55psi with the vac line connected is too much fuel pressure...

[Aries_Turbo]

is that my cal in the repository from ages ago?

if so, i really should update those.

brian

[audiomaninc]

At idle with the vac line disconnected? or Connected? 55psi with the vac line connected is too much fuel pressure...

vac disconnected

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------


is that my cal in the repository from ages ago?

if so, i really should update those.

brian


It is! The car actually runs great on it, other than a bit rich at WOT.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah they ran great on my k car with the 2.5L as well.

are you running +40's? you could possibly have the ones that were a little larger.

id back the fuel pressure down a bit and see if it gets better. im sure it will. when you decide its time to learn what to change in the cal, then you can correct the rich condition that way and put the fuel pressure back to stock.

now if you do have the higher flowing +40's, those may have been rated at 52lb/hr at 43.5psi of fuel pressure.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

I'd back off the fuel pressure too.

14 degree's base is too much, should be 12. Yes, 2 deg's makes a difference.

[audiomaninc]

ok, I'll back off the timing and the fuel pressure a touch. Then I'll look into learning how to change things in the cal! Thanks for the help everyone!

[audiomaninc]

yeah they ran great on my k car with the 2.5L as well.

are you running +40's? you could possibly have the ones that were a little larger.

id back the fuel pressure down a bit and see if it gets better. im sure it will. when you decide its time to learn what to change in the cal, then you can correct the rich condition that way and put the fuel pressure back to stock.

now if you do have the higher flowing +40's, those may have been rated at 52lb/hr at 43.5psi of fuel pressure.

Brian

Could I check by part number which +40's I have?

[turbovanman²]

Could I check by part number which +40's I have?

No, its an internal difference.

[audiomaninc]

Alrighty, I'm at 12deg base timing. Also lowered the fuel pressure to 45psi @ idle with vac line disconnected. Car starts better at least! I'm still in the 10's on the wideband though, but more like 10.4-10.9 depending on RPM. I'm thinking about adjusting the "FUELFULLTHROTTLE" table in the cal to see what that does.

[Aries_Turbo]

i wouldnt adjust that table. that the first mistake cal newbies (if thats what you are) do is head for that table.

if your car does indeed have 52lb injectors at 43.5psi, then the scaling should be pretty good and you took care of the potential injector difference issue.

id focus on the pumpingefficiency table at this point especially if there are some RPM variations to your fuel curve at WOT. lower your boost as much as possible and load the car hard against the brakes and dial in the fuel at every 500rpm increments at WOT. let the boost and EGT stabilize and then take a AFR reading.

actually, you should download MPTuner and do a fresh cal based on Turbonator-LM. Should provide you with a much more accurate calibration for a 2.5L.

Brian

[audiomaninc]

i wouldnt adjust that table. that the first mistake cal newbies (if thats what you are) do is head for that table.

if your car does indeed have 52lb injectors at 43.5psi, then the scaling should be pretty good and you took care of the potential injector difference issue.

id focus on the pumpingefficiency table at this point especially if there are some RPM variations to your fuel curve at WOT. lower your boost as much as possible and load the car hard against the brakes and dial in the fuel at every 500rpm increments at WOT. let the boost and EGT stabilize and then take a AFR reading.

actually, you should download MPTuner and do a fresh cal based on Turbonator-LM. Should provide you with a much more accurate calibration for a 2.5L.

Brian

I already have turbonator-lm...just haven't figured out how to work with the numbers so to speak on that yet to make adjustments. I believe it's in HEX maybe? Either way, I'll just run the car now as is until I have a good understanding of adjusting things in MPTuner, then make a cal with that.

[audiomaninc]

specifically, I have the 2.5-LM cal loaded in MPTuner, and scaled for 52pph/3-Bar...now in editing, for example, the staging limiter, how do I correlate the number on the screen to RPM?

[Aries_Turbo]

30,000,000/rpm and then convert it to hexadecimal for the value. as you drag the slider, the value you are looking to match with the one you calculated will be in the "bin data" window in the lower left of the screen.

the calculator in windows can easily convert from decimal (Dec) into hexidecimal (Hex). put the calc in scientific mode i think and do everything in dec and then click the hex dot thingy.

brian

[audiomaninc]

My head hurts...I feel like Helen Keller

---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

what are the letters for? I see A-D when I move the slider in the bin data box.

---------- Post added at 06:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

say I want to change the staging limiter to 5200RPM for the lower. I do 30,000,000/5200, and convert it to HEX, which is 1689. Right? Then I look for 1689, and it doesn't exist in the bin table. :-(

[Aries_Turbo]

yup 1689 is correct. it does exist. you slide the slider till its close and use the arrow keys to dial it in precisely. heres a pic.

30867

A-D are because in the hexadecimal number system, you dont carry the 1 until you get to 16.

instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (ie decimal)

its 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F,10 (ie hexadecimal)

Brian

[audiomaninc]

Ahhhhh I'm getting it! Now I suppose the dumb question I'll ask is why in the table description does it say "0x2300=3300RPM", I'm the idiot that wonders why 1689 is less than 2300, yet yields a greater RPM. Unless the 0x comes into play somehow.

[Aries_Turbo]

the LM uses a reverse table deal. lower numbers = higher rev limit. has something to do with the fact that the LM cant divide.

Brian

[audiomaninc]

the LM uses a reverse table deal. lower numbers = higher rev limit. has something to do with the fact that the LM cant divide.

Brian
brilliant!

[audiomaninc]

now for the ultimate newb questions...when I save the cal, it's in a format called .v12. How do I make that into a .bin to run through Emutility to put it on my Ostrich?

[ShelGame]

now for the ultimate newb questions...when I save the cal, it's in a format called .v12. How do I make that into a .bin to run through Emutility to put it on my Ostrich?

Compile it using MP Tuner...

[audiomaninc]

I see that I need to run MPCompile to turn it into a .bin file, but when I run the compiler, and look for a file to compile, I'm only given the choice of looking for a .asm file, not a .v12 file. So I guess my question would be how do I turn my .v12 file into a .asm file, so I can run it in MPCompile and turn that into a .bin file? Or am I making this way more complicated than it should be?

[ShelGame]

the LM uses a reverse table deal. lower numbers = higher rev limit. has something to do with the fact that the LM cant divide.

Brian

Actually, I'm thinking that's not entirely true. Well, it's true that the LM does not have a built-in divide instruction.

But, there is a routine that converts the ditributor PW signal (the value we're talking about here) to a 'true' RPM value. It gets used in many places. But, not in the shutdown routine (rev limiter, overboost, etc.). I don't see why we couldn't convert the shutdown routine to use actual RPM...

[bakes]

Actually, I'm thinking that's not entirely true. Well, it's true that the LM does not have a built-in divide instruction.

But, there is a routine that converts the distributor PW signal (the value we're talking about here) to a 'true' RPM value. It gets used in many places. But, not in the shutdown routine (rev limiter, over boost, etc.). I don't see why we couldn't convert the shutdown routine to use actual RPM...

Now that would help alot or at least a look up table to manually look up the input numbers.

[audiomaninc]

I see that I need to run MPCompile to turn it into a .bin file, but when I run the compiler, and look for a file to compile, I'm only given the choice of looking for a .asm file, not a .v12 file. So I guess my question would be how do I turn my .v12 file into a .asm file, so I can run it in MPCompile and turn that into a .bin file? Or am I making this way more complicated than it should be?

I think I got it maybe? Here's what I did. I open MPTuner. I open MPCompile. I open the .asm file that's in the folder. Then it asks me for a .V12 file, so I select the cal that I just saved. Then, magically, I have a .bin file, a .err file, a .lst file, a .dcl file, a .tbl, a .inj...etc...all based on the cal that I made?? Is that right? Then, I load the .bin file into Emutility and I'm good to go? Assuming I've done everything right that I think I've done right up to this point...

[ShelGame]

I think I got it maybe? Here's what I did. I open MPTuner. I open MPCompile. I open the .asm file that's in the folder. Then it asks me for a .V12 file, so I select the cal that I just saved. Then, magically, I have a .bin file, a .err file, a .lst file, a .dcl file, a .tbl, a .inj...etc...all based on the cal that I made?? Is that right? Then, I load the .bin file into Emutility and I'm good to go? Assuming I've done everything right that I think I've done right up to this point...

That's about right. Though, you should be able to run MP Compile from within MP Tuner. You don't have to exit to run it. Then, it defaults to the folder your last cal edit was in. I always keep a copy of the .asm in the same folder as the .v12 file just to make sure I have a copy of the 'correct' asm to go with the template (.v12).

FWIW, this will get a whole lot more simple with MP Tuner 2...

[audiomaninc]

That's about right. Though, you should be able to run MP Compile from within MP Tuner. You don't have to exit to run it. Then, it defaults to the folder your last cal edit was in. I always keep a copy of the .asm in the same folder as the .v12 file just to make sure I have a copy of the 'correct' asm to go with the template (.v12).

FWIW, this will get a whole lot more simple with MP Tuner 2...

ahhhh, I think that's where the problem came in. I had saved the .v12 in a different folder than the .asm file. This really isn't all that difficult to work with...once you know how I guess. It's just not very intuitive for the average Joe I'd say. I can't wait for MP Tuner 2! Have an ETA on that?

[ShelGame]

Ask wowzer. Though, the thing I mentioned about making compilation easier we just came up with yesterday. So, I'm sure he'll have to code it. I think MPT2 is pretty close to being ready, but it's really up to him...

[Aries_Turbo]

I think I got it maybe? Here's what I did. I open MPTuner. I open MPCompile. I open the .asm file that's in the folder. Then it asks me for a .V12 file, so I select the cal that I just saved. Then, magically, I have a .bin file, a .err file, a .lst file, a .dcl file, a .tbl, a .inj...etc...all based on the cal that I made?? Is that right? Then, I load the .bin file into Emutility and I'm good to go? Assuming I've done everything right that I think I've done right up to this point...

yup looks like you got it.

i assume you opened MPTuner, hit "Programs" and then "Compile" and then clicked on the "Compile Template" and then opened the files it asked for as described above?

Brian

[audiomaninc]

yup looks like you got it.

i assume you opened MPTuner, hit "Programs" and then "Compile" and then clicked on the "Compile Template" and then opened the files it asked for as described above?

Brian
Yes, but the car ran a little funky with the cal so I reloaded the previous cal until I can work out the bugs in this one. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I'll figure it out though. For example, it idled really rich (10.0 on the WB) for a good 2 minutes after startup, and the staging limiter doesn't work. Must be my math is off or something, I'll go back into it today and see if I can't straighten it out.