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View Full Version : Awd, Boosted, 5spd, Hybrid Gas/Electric 1990 Caravan?



Vigo
04-11-2011, 12:26 AM
About 4 years ago i spotted an ad on Craigslist for a 5spd (tbi) Caravan. I dont think i was looking for a van, but the 5spd part made me call the number. I went to take a look at the van and it was VERY clean but did not run. I figured out immediately that the motor was completely locked up from having run with a blown headgasket for thousands of miles with oil contamination.

It was advertised for ~$350, but i arranged to put a motor mount on one of the seller's other vehicles and got the van for around $280.

It sat for a while as i didnt have piles of spare motors around back then :p, but eventually i decided it was so clean and nice that i wanted to take the perfectly functional 2.5 tbi out of my DD aries and put it in the van. I was able to get the motors in and out through the top with the trans in the van and get it fired up.

From that point i daily drove it for a solid 2 yrs, putting ~25k on it (total ~225k now?), averaging 27mpg :eyebrows:, holding a crap load of stuff, being super practical and reliable. It ran 18.2@73 like clockwork :p It became my most-loved vehicle! I really didnt do ANYTHING to it in that time other than oil changes, a stereo, and some 15" wheels. Unfortunately, some previous rust repair began to fall apart (van was from wisconsin) so it lost that 'good condition' sheen along the way.;)
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/1465Large-1.jpg

I always had thoughts of turbocharging it and gradually collected the few parts i needed like harness, and computer (thanks Fastasleep!:thumb:). In 2009 when i was building my Aries for the GRM $2009 Challenge i had thoughts of towing it there with the van, but i didnt think it would tow it well as a tbi (shoulda tried) so i decided to take it apart and start the turbo install. All i did was slap stock turbo manifolds and a mitsu on the TBI motor, and modify a tbi EGR pipe to add to the oil pan as a turbo oil drainback. I had put on a stock turbo-van exhaust a bit earlier from a parts van i used to build the Aries.

Unfortunately i didnt have a spare turbo fuel pump at the time and it wouldnt fire on starter fluid, so it had SOME issues and i got busy with life and the Aries project and never went back to it. I ended up towing to GRM with my 93 Dynasty which worked AWESOME and led me to start towing everything else with that car as well. :o

Continued VVVVVVV

Vigo
04-11-2011, 12:47 AM
Its been almost 2 years since then. In that time, i schemed over it and did a few things to it here and there. I put a proper fuel pump in it and figured out the reason it wouldnt fire was because i forgot to put a turbo distributor base in it (lol). I also took apart the interior to fix some weird wiring issues :banghead: and do a badass 4channel amp install :love: (no pics :( )and what ended up happening was that i never put it ALL the way back together and daily drove it again.:confused2:

Because of my friendships with Ondonti and Big_P id always had 3.0L ambitions and decided at some point that this was the car to take them out on, even though i hadnt put 20 miles on it as a turbo. Its fun @14psi, dont get me wrong, but its only the same kind of fun as my other 8v's, and kinda redundant! Plus, i have never had a supercharged car and figured, like most of my other car 'firsts', i should BUILD my first one.:eyebrows:

Big_P contributed a 543 and an m90 to the cause, along with his own 3.0/543 van experience.:thumb::thumb:
Ondonti contributes a pile of 3.0 and general knowledge on a regular basis.:hail:

And along the way a QUINTET of parted/swapped/recycled vans contributed piles of miscellaneous parts, like a boatload of spares, factory tint windows, brake upgrade parts, AC system (mine was non-ac), 89 3.0 harness/comp, several 3.0 motors, rust-free body panels, and contributed to other causes as well.. one of them is Strax22's formerly-3.0 2.5/568 turbo van:love: and the other ones contributed in various ways to my Aries, other cars, and probably that big dam in China;) Some of the parts off these vans now reside in Illinois and Ohio, too.:thumb:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC01739Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04601.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04538.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04072.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000279Medium.jpg

Continued VVVVVVV

Vigo
04-11-2011, 12:56 AM
RANDOM PICS POST

AC SWAP
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04618Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04620Large-1.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04621Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04623Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC04624Large.jpg

Front brake upgrade (now 11"ers)
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/1802Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/1890.jpg

Hitch Installed (from my parents' cash-for-clunker'd 97 Grand Caravan)
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC01384Medium.jpg
^That install was tedious but i custom-installed it REEL GUUUD, aint never coming loose:thumb:

Continued VVVVVV

Vigo
04-11-2011, 01:38 AM
So at some point after i started getting my 3.0 parts together something completely unrelated happened.. I found an electric car on CL and bought it :confused:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?47521-I-bought-an-electric-car&highlight=electric+car
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02275Large.jpg

And after i sat on that and did a bunch of research for a while, i decided "Hey, wouldnt this electric motor be much more interesting in an AWD HYBRID BOOSTED CARAVAN?!??!"

So i took all the electrical goodies out and traded the *1200 miles total* Colt shell to a friend of mine who's building a monster 4g63 car out of it. That car is going through an AWD swap as well! :clap: I got some neat hardware in trade like an AEM FIC ill be using on my 93 dynasty.

Here's the only pictures i ever took of the 52hp electric motor, and amazingly i NEVER took pictures of the rest of the hardware. Very dirty, nasty, homebrew install in the Colt.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC09983Medium.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC09984Medium.jpg

And of course after i started getting hyped about trying some electric power i ended up selling the fiancee's clapped out Mazda3 to buy a Hybrid daily driver :eyebrows: (my honda Insight).

So about that AWD HYBRID BOOSTED CARAVAN idea, i figured hey, ive got many thousands of dollars of hardware here (which i only have a few hundred bucks into), and a caravan with a very roomy underbelly, and there's a factory bolt-in driven rear axle setup from AWD vans.. how convenient! Thus began my search for an AWD donor van.

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 AM ----------

Well, AWD caravans are a rare bird in dry, sunny Texas, so it took a while to find one. I didnt really want to buy an entire van just for the rear axle either, which nipped a few potential deals in the bud. I finally found one in a cheap junkyard last October and got everything from the the viscous coupling to the leaf springs, the whole shebang, for $220 total. Finally!

Well that was October, and now FINALLY i got around to putting the AWD rear axle in the van. Since my van is FWD the fuel tank sits where the rear differential would in an AWD van (they have different tanks), so i could not mount the diff and CV axles without moving the fuel tank. Since i didnt feel like doing it just yet i figured id put the rear axle in without the CV axles or diff by just running some axle stubs in the wheel bearings.

I had some spare, junky front axles (same splines) to salvage the outer ends from, but it turns out the 'body' area was too bulky to fit on the backside of the hubs. Luckily Mason (Strax22) cut them down to JUST RIGHT for me at his work. :clap:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03781Large.jpg

Has anyone noticed just how HUGE the AWD rear brakes are?:confused:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03784Large.jpg
That's next to the already-beefy stock van drums.

---------- Post added at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

Ok, HERES ANOTHER SWEET MOD BROUGHT TO YOU BY VIGO. :p

Since ive had the van, ive seen every attempt or idea at lowering the rear that has been posted to the net, from Dempsey's spring-under to Pachner's shackle-drop to removing springs and just riding on the bumpstops everywhere (Reeves? :p).

Having this AWD axle sitting around made me realize something.. on a stock FWD Caravan rear axle, the centerline of the wheel (the axis) is pretty much level with where the leaf springs sit behind the drums. Well, on an AWD, you need a CV axle to go through there, so you cant have leaf springs in the way! What do you do? You make the leafs attach at a lower position and just run taller springs!

So what happens when you run an AWD rear axle on FWD leaf springs? You get a ~3" drop with NO loss of suspension travel, NO change in ride/load characteristics, AND a giant brake upgrade to boot!


Rock out now!
:banaride: Its like a drop spindle for your rear axle!

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03778Large.jpg
AWD rear axle with taller AWD springs.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03782Large.jpg
in progress
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03788Large.jpg
NEW HOTNESS!

Thats a 245/35 autox slick, ill be running 245/45/18 street tires (which will fill out the well better) when the time comes.:thumb:

---------- Post added at 12:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

And yes, it works. :)

To run the AWD rear axle in a FWD van you will need to keep/reuse the longer AWD u-bolts, make axle stubs from the stock AWD cv axles or make something on your own (its possible that a nut, bolt, and washers is all you need), and THATS IT. The leaf spring pads work, the shocks work (but are compressed 1-2" more), the e-brake cables work, and the brake hoses work.

Since most if not all (not sure) AWD vans are long wheelbase, the passenger side e-brake cable which loops back around to the drivers side, is noticeably longer than the short wheelbase van cable. I did not check if these cables are interchangeable, because i was able to stuff the extra cable length into the van and keep things routed well with a few well-placed zip ties.


THE ONE MAJOR CAVEAT is that AWD vans are 5x114.3, requiring you to swap to the 5x114.3 fronts (from the same donor?) to have matching wheels, unless you get some of the many dual bolt pattern 5x100/114.3 wheels..

---------- Post added at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 AM ----------

Here is a VERY UN-proportional, MSpaint rendition of BASICALLY what is going to happen:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/layout-1.jpg

RoadWarrior222
04-11-2011, 09:20 AM
Vigo! Vigo! Vigo!

Yeah, that's cheering you on, very interesting....

I'm a little disappointed at the proposed arrangement so far, if I do similar I don't want to lose ground clearance and have it dragging it's nuts in the snow. I would be trying to flip the axle and use up the space where the spare sits (Used to sit on mine, the crane got unusable so I deleted it) Also I think I'd try and lose a battery, or some electronics in the side panel behind the driver's seat. Lots of room there that's kind of wasted (Though that's where my spare goes when the van is full ATM)

Also think there's a bit of room in the passenger side, behind the wheelarch... thinking that I might go for getting the controller and inverter behind there, and giving it vents for cooling. With your arrangement it looks like you're going to have some fun trying to keep the exhaust away from batteries, controllers etc. Bear in mind also that engine heat tends to flow back under the vehicle, so even with the exhaust out of the way, the electronics might get warm. If you wanted to be really clever though, you could do something like space a cover 2" off the firewall, all the way into the cowl and continue it to an underbody tray that exits at the rear in a diffuser.... (and have the exhaust outside of it) that way cooler air is pushed in at higher pressure above the cowl and sucked out the back. That would leave less clearance for the turbo though.... unless you hybridded your hybrid with a 2.4 head, then you could hybrid while you hybrid. You might achieve that effect just by having some 3" pipes either side of the engine bay to hood vents close to the back of the hood, feeding the front edge of the undertray.

Anyway, probably best to figure out the mechanics first, you can have forced air cooling temporarily if necessary until you figure out something fancy and efficient.

Vigo
04-11-2011, 09:35 AM
I am going to try and maintain as 'normal' of a Caravan interior as possible. However, there is probably going to be some floor intrusion somewhere (the motor is ~1ft diameter) and i MAY end up moving making a false floor that moves the entire floor behind the front seats up by 2-3". That would depend on headroom for the back seats.

The charger and dc-dc converter i have are small enough to potentially put in other places, but the motor controller is about the size of a 5" thick car radiator, and realistically the ONLY place i can put it is flat up against the bottom of the car.

Ground clearance will definitely be an issue, although im hoping to keep at least 4" or so. Putting the taller tires on it will raise it a bit from where it sits in the last pic, and if i need more height i can use leaf blocks or custom shackles to bring it back up a bit more. I hope thats not necessary as i really like the look right now. :D

The front engine is being swapped to a 3.0 with stock exhaust manifolds so there wont be any firewall issues, but if you look closely at my nasty MSpaint work you can see im planning to Y off the exhaust over the k-frame and send it down the sides of the van, outside the main framerails. However, thats just a working theory, because unless two 40" glasspacks makes it acceptably quiet i will have to come up with more room for mufflers.

I am hoping to keep a space saver spare in the stock location, but if i need more room i may end up changing that plan.

RoadWarrior222
04-11-2011, 09:47 AM
Doh, 3.0...

Right, though I don't know why you'd "Y" it, rather than just run it off each manifold seperate... blank the crosspipe entry on the rear one. Rig an injector cutout for the front bank and it will chug nicely on 3 cyl too. Though with boost you'll want an O2 in the front bank for monitoring purposes.

Motor controller sounds like it could go behind the driver... get an extra inch by pulling the trim panel.. then repanel it flush over the top and probably no-one will notice it's there.

Vigo
04-11-2011, 10:47 AM
More info:

The motor and controller are a matched pair from UniQ Motors designed to run on 200 volts.
http://www.uqm.com/

The motor is a 52hp 3-phase brushless dc motor complete with rotary encoder.

Motor

Type: SR180/2.8P
Kw: 32
Voltage: 200
RPM: 7000
Amperage: 400 A Peak
Serial No.: 1519


The controller has full analog power AND REGEN ability. Oh yes, i plan to have regenerative braking.

Uniq model No.: CR20-300/3
Serial Number: 1486
Voltage: 200 VDC
Amperage: 300 A
Patent: 5,107,151



These parts were developed way back in 1993. Ive heard that UQM supplies motors for military vehicles, including some that are required to be able to move silently in urban settings.:bolt:

Here is a PDF of a graduate student's work using this same system on a Neon in 1996.
http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-01292009-31295009895870/unrestricted/31295009895870.pdf


The charger i have is a K&W Model BC-20. I believe the highest voltage output of this charger is 108 volts so in order to use it as a grid charger i will have to incorporate some components to break the 200v battery packs to 2 100v pack circuits for purposes of charging.

I have another PDF written for the Department of Energy about the UQM systems that i will figure out how to upload.




___________________________________


On the subject of the motor, i do not know how much torque it makes, but i do know its rpm range, 0-7000rpm.

Knowing that the rear differential ratio is roughly 3.45:1, 7000 rpm would not be reached until ~160mph if i dont use any more gear reduction. Obviously that's stupid.

If i add a 3:1 gear reduction between the motor and diff, then 7000rpm will get me to roughly 50mph. That is more in line with my goals.

My goals for the electric portion are PRIMARILY that it be able to strongly accelerate the van and hopefully be able to spin the 245/45r18 tires at a standstill. If i use a 3:1 gear reduction, the ~3.45:1 diff, and assume 200lb ft from the motor, i should have roughly ~2000lb ft at the wheels. I know that will be enough for decent acceleration, but im not sure it will be able to spin those tires. When i had my nearly stock tbi aries i calculated that it had about ~1600lb ft to the front wheels in 1st gear, and it blew off the 205/50r15s easily, but that is a much smaller tire and 2000lb ft does not seem like very much more than 1600. However, i only need it to spin the tire for AWD or RWD burnout/donut purposes, and i could always bolt on smaller tires for that one video i have to make to prove it can do it..:lol:

The secondary goal for the electric portion would be to be able to cruise at low speeds on electric power. If 7000 rpm on the motor seems unpleasant (maybe it wont) i think the 3:1+diff reduction would still be comfortable up to ~40mph, which fulfills that requirement.

One thing i havent figured out yet, is if the motor turns 7000 rpm to run 50mph, how do i de-couple it for purposes of going 100mph? :eyebrows: I dont want neodymium iron boron magnet fragments flying off at 14000 rpm and cutting my van in half like a 100mph clutch explosion.

The awd rear diff DOES have an overrunning clutch built in, i believe, and by itself that would be enough to fix that problem..

BUT, by itself that means that the AWD system would be defeated in reverse gear, so the awd rear diff has a dog clutch that engages in reverse to defeat the overrunning clutch. I need to keep that clutch engaged for my regenerative braking to function.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/IMG_3816.jpg
Pic courtesy of Ondonti :D


So the problem becomes, can i de-couple that dog clutch at speed (I think yes)? It is moved by a vacuum actuator. Even if i do that, does it mean that i would have to come to a complete stop to re-couple it for purposes of regen braking?

The motor does have a rotary encoder, so THEORETICALLY one could design a rev-matching system to match (within a few rpm) the motor speed to the diff speed for purposes of re-engaging the dog clutch at speed. Take that 370Z! :p I dont think any brass shavings were ever ground off an electric synchro..:evil:

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

Check out the factory-built electric Caravans that Chryco produced in the mid 90s.

http://www.allpar.com/corporate/electric-cars.html

Vigo
04-11-2011, 12:11 PM
Right, though I don't know why you'd "Y" it, rather than just run it off each manifold seperate...

I dont think i would gain anything from that if i was still running a stock front manifold. It might sound different but for the added effort i dont see any other benefit.


Motor controller sounds like it could go behind the driver... get an extra inch by pulling the trim panel.. then repanel it flush over the top and probably no-one will notice it's there.

It's possible that it would fit there if i cut up and modified the interior panel there. On non-rear ac vans that trim panel is basically scalloped into that empty space so i dont think the depth is there without modifying that panel. The other issue is that if i put it there and someone bangs into the side of the van i just lost an irreplaceable component. According to the previous owner you couldnt buy replacement, equivalent stuff from UniQ for less than $80,000 and none or VERY FEW of the hobbyist electric-propulsion people can build a controller for 3-phase brushless dc.

One of the advantages of having everything on the bottom is that im hoping to design a component tray that will lower from the van chassis with everything bolted to it for access AND protection. I can count on no fingers the amount of times ive crushed something on the bottom of one of my cars by dragging it over something, so ill feel pretty safe with it down there.

Although technically i DID drag Strax22's old van with a chain over a giant rock and crush his muffler, but that wasnt MY car. :p

RoadWarrior222
04-11-2011, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I'd want lots of protection for spendy components underneath, I've had 3 incidents of actual damage (and a few more of potential if something was lower hanging and more delicate) one was "surprise rock" on a dirt track, sitting in the grassy middle, dinged the tranny pan, another was a 2x4 on the highway, flipped up and dented the muffler, another was a rock I saw on a dirt road, but caught an awkward double bounce just as I got to it and the suspension ended up bottomed as I went over it, resulting in a down pipe mashed flat. Have encountered a few more 2x4s, logs, branches, hammers, etc on the highway that might have done damage.... on the other hand, have avoided all side impacts. I don't suppose therefore, it would squeeze under the passenger seat? One of the safest places I can think of.

I don't suppose you wanna consider a two speed shift on the fly transfer case? Might make a gearing choice a little easier.

I would want the electric motor to be in an efficient range at about 60mph, providing ~20-25HP for cruise.

Also I'd want to rig a "charge through the road" method, which would load the IC motor into an efficient BSFC range under light demand, though who knows where that will be with a supercharged motor.

Vigo
04-11-2011, 01:56 PM
Im not really looking at being able to cruise on electric at higher speeds because 1. i picked a terrible vehicle to try that, and 2. Battery capacity. Im looking at making the batteries out of 2-3 older Prius packs, and I dont think i'm going to have enough battery capacity to cruise any meaningful distance at a higher speed.

It really all comes down to torque, too. My first and foremost goal for the rear drivetrain is to be able to push the van hard enough that it can 'launch' similarly to a conventional AWD vehicle (albeit 3500lbs). If that means i have to use gear reductions that make 60+mph electric power impossible, that's what im going to do.

The controller wont fit under the stock passenger seat bottom. Its possible i could build an entirely new passenger seat bottom that would make room for most of the controller (it is bigger widthXlength than the seat bottom), but i havent looked at it with that thought in mind, so all i can give to that is a vague 'plausible'.

RoadWarrior222
04-11-2011, 02:20 PM
I'd be thinking in terms of 10 mins on 10 mins off cruising, which I think in theory could raise mpg by about 20-30% but it would be a PITA without some means of automating it. Though if there was no charge through the road, I might think of getting a high amp alternator and tryna get full output of it into the battery under favorable load conditions (Even if you have to stick it through a 115V inverter to use the onboard charger instead of having another unobtanium 12V to 100 or 200V charging solution)

Another couple of thoughts, there was someone with a manual rack in the classies recently. Also was the ABS system for these electric rather than vacuum assist, forgot, might be an idea to convert to that system, so i) you can have full braking power (more than a couple of times) with the IC motor off, and ii) you can possible more effectively integrate regen braking with the rest of the system. (Who knows, maybe that rotary encoder on the motor will somehow work with the ABS controller in a way that you fool it into doing aggressive regen braking, instead of modulating the rear brakes)

Vigo
04-11-2011, 03:06 PM
I am not really interested in maximizing the MPG of this thing. I will be running huge tires and a terribly inefficient supercharged motor in a giant brick-shaped object. I DO have a minimum in mind, though. I have gotten it to avg 27mpg and max 33 with no effort whatsoever, and think WITH some effort i can match that even with a supercharged 3.0, bigger tires, and some extra weight.

As for braking, i probably WILL design in the possibility of driving around with the gas engine off at low speeds. I would probably do nothing about the steering other than push harder on it, but i DO have an electric vacuum pump from the electric Colt that i can use to keep the brake booster primed if the key is on and the pressure is above a certain point with a vacuum switch. That sounds easy enough to qualify for 'why not?'. :p

Im not going to have any automated controls on this thing whatsoever unless i feel like designing a light braking regen signal coming off my brake switch or something like that.

Im building around the idea of using the electric propulsion for it's utility factor in parking lots, drive throughs, city streets, etc.

I may do a super simple constant-charge scheme running the grid charger off an inverter (for maximum inefficiency/who cares?) IF the charger i had could charge all the way up to 200v. If i have to break high-voltage circuits to get two ~100v packs to charge with it, i dont think id want to be pulsing those things on and off all the time when i go from charging to brake regen to assist, on the fly. It would only need/use it if the dog clutch was not engaged and i wasnt regening normally.

I dont have GOOD pics of the electric hardware but for some perspective on the size of the controller, here's one. It's probably bigger than anyone thinks right now.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC09983Large.jpg

StraX22
04-11-2011, 08:47 PM
It's about time you made this thread!

For my own selfish curiosity I'm really stoked to see that electric motor run. :evil:

Spr-T-23
04-11-2011, 09:15 PM
why run with the motor off? just put the trans in neutral and let the elec. one push you. you will still have brakes, steering and a/c well no a/c on a race van

RoadWarrior222
04-11-2011, 09:38 PM
Coz you probably only save 30% of the fuel you would from driving it on the IC motor. Idle, probably makes around 5HP to keep motor and accessories spinning at something like .7lb/bhp/hr so 3.5lb an hour whereas chugging along at city speed might take 10HP at .5lb/bhp/hr so 3.5lb vs 5lb...... or some motors are horrible at idle and suck 1.2lb/bhp/hr... dunno what the BSFC/load curve for chrysler app 3.0s is but I'd REALLY like to see it.

Vigo
04-12-2011, 12:58 AM
Whether i am cruising with the gas engine on or off will be a decision i make based on random impulse, not mileage concerns. It might come down to whether i remember to turn it off, or how hot it is that day, or how lazy my arms are at that moment. :p Keep in mind that my motivations with this thing are not necessarily what anyone else's might be, and i HAVE typed them out. It is not a max-mpg effort. Its just doing something 'neat' and putting a notch in my belt.

I have a feeling this project is going to make me REALLY WISH i owned a 2post lift. :(

As for non-electric mods:
I have some car struts to lower the front. I am debating whether to try it with car springs or cut van springs first.
I have some poly bushings for the front control arms
I have a 1 1/4" front swaybar that im going to mod for endlinks
I have a big front swaybar off a Dakota that im going to use as a REAR swaybar:eyebrows:
I have 6 27lb log t1 injectors (ultrasonically cleaned by Strax22, thanks!) for the 3.0
I have a tbird SC m90 to put on the 3.0
I have a Boers UDP for the 3.0 (which ill need to keep boost low.. for a start.)
I have a big spline 3.77 543 and a small spline 3.50 543 that i am thinking about combining to make a large spline 3.77 gearset 3.50 differential 543

The only thing i am really waiting on to put the 3.0 setup in the car is a pressure plate im getting from Cindy at FWD. Im not going to bother putting a stocker in if i'll be supercharging it, but i AM going to run a stock, full face organic clutch disc (already have that too).

zin
04-12-2011, 02:03 AM
That 52HP has got to translate into some MEGA TORQUE!! Seriously, what is it's torque rating?

As to the over-riding clutch, seems like you should be able to, or even need to remove it for regenerative braking... the motor should free-wheel as long as the field wires are not energized.

If you don't mind a side exhaust, the motor might fit, though I'm sure some reinforcement of the floor would be needed to contain the torque and prevent ripping out the floor...

I gotta say it should be a pretty cool runner when it's done, and fast too!

Mike

Vigo
04-12-2011, 02:15 AM
That 52HP has got to translate into some MEGA TORQUE!! Seriously, what is it's torque rating?

Unfortunately i dont know. Thats a major hang-up right now because i need to know that (ballpark at least) to make an informed decision of how much gear reduction i want between the motor and the rear diff.


As to the over-riding clutch, seems like you should be able to, or even need to remove it for regenerative braking... the motor should free-wheel as long as the field wires are not energized.

I can leave it engaged for the regenerative braking but the problem becomes when the road speed x gear multiplication in front of the electric motor ends up over-revving the motor, i need to disengage it. I CANT have the motor directly engaged to the diff 100% of the time unless i am willing to gear it so that it stays under the 7000 rpm red line at every conceivable road speed, which im thinking is up to 130 just to give myself some margin. If i gear it that tall, the motor might not have the guts to push the van very hard. It is a big unkown right now.


If you don't mind a side exhaust, the motor might fit, though I'm sure some reinforcement of the floor would be needed to contain the torque and prevent ripping out the floor...
The motor would probably be tied to the framerails (vans have biggish, box framerails as part of unibody).


I gotta say it should be a pretty cool runner when it's done, and fast too!
Thanks! If i go with a conservative estimate and say that the supercharged 3.0 will make ~250hp, id guess the AWD would help push it to a mid 13 1/4 mile. However, if things work out well i could conceivably push the supercharger setup well past that if i open up the ring gaps and run proper timing and meth injection. Even e85 is a possibility, although i want to keep my hwy mpg at 25+.

zin
04-12-2011, 08:07 PM
Unfortunately i dont know. Thats a major hang-up right now because i need to know that (ballpark at least) to make an informed decision of how much gear reduction i want between the motor and the rear diff.

If you know the RPM that the rated HP is taken, you can back into the torque, just do the HP formula backwards... Good Ol Algebra, who would have guessed we'd use it so much (Trig too!)

I can leave it engaged for the regenerative braking but the problem becomes when the road speed x gear multiplication in front of the electric motor ends up over-revving the motor, i need to disengage it. I CANT have the motor directly engaged to the diff 100% of the time unless i am willing to gear it so that it stays under the 7000 rpm red line at every conceivable road speed, which im thinking is up to 130 just to give myself some margin. If i gear it that tall, the motor might not have the guts to push the van very hard. It is a big unknown right now.

Here's an idea I've had for a while, since electric motors produce their max torque close to their stalling speed, I've felt for some time now that using a CVT, or an element similar to they way they work, maybe something like a snowmobile clutch, would allow you to keep the motor speed down/constant, while allowing the wheel speed to vary. If you added something like this between the motor and the diff, you should be able to overcome this issue and maximize the use of torque from the electric motor... OR, you may just find that that motor has so much torque that it wont' mind the gearing... BTW, have you calculated the wheel RPMs for the ratio and tire size you'll be running? It might not be nearly as high as you think...

The motor would probably be tied to the framerails (vans have biggish, box framerails as part of unibody).

Thanks! If i go with a conservative estimate and say that the supercharged 3.0 will make ~250hp, id guess the AWD would help push it to a mid 13 1/4 mile. However, if things work out well i could conceivably push the supercharger setup well past that if i open up the ring gaps and run proper timing and meth injection. Even e85 is a possibility, although i want to keep my hwy mpg at 25+.

With the help of the electric motor and the regenerative braking, not to mention a tune optimized for power/mileage, I think you could be in for a pleasant surprise!

Mike

RoadWarrior222
04-12-2011, 08:30 PM
Does that work for electrics? thought they made peak torque at stall... ima hafta go math at it...

Vigo probably realises this but I'll mention it for anyone humming along, the T1 injectors are rated 27lb at 55psi, and on a stock 3.0 regulator (48psi IIRC) will be a little lower, probably around 25lb.

zin
04-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Does that work for electrics? thought they made peak torque at stall... ima hafta go math at it...

Yep, the formula uses torque to get HP at a particular RPM, so if you know one, you can find the other! That's one of the reasons why I'm curious as to the RPM it make the HP at, if it is low enough, the torque should be quite high, couple of hundred foot pounds I would think... But then again, if the motor was designed to run through a trans, it might not be that much...

Still, a couple hundred foot pounds should help quite a bit when you need it most, starting from a stand-still....

Mike

moparman76_69
04-12-2011, 08:51 PM
Wish I would've seen this before going the ditch a leaf and ride on bump stop method of lowering the rear of my van.

Vigo
04-12-2011, 10:47 PM
Sorry, i wanted to keep it to myself until i was sure that it worked.


If you know the RPM that the rated HP is taken, you can back into the torque, just do the HP formula backwards... Good Ol Algebra, who would have guessed we'd use it so much (Trig too!)

Unfortunately, i DONT know. All i know right now is the max rpm of the motor. If it makes 52hp @ 7000 rpm it would only have like ~40lb ft at that rpm. If it makes 52hp at low speed it could have 400 lb ft.


BTW, have you calculated the wheel RPMs for the ratio and tire size you'll be running? It might not be nearly as high as you think...

I know its a lot of info to read through but i DID post that if i dont add any gear multiplication between the motor and diff, it would take 160 mph (with my tire size) to hit the 7000 rpm redline on the motor. That's leaving a lot of the rev range unusable on the electric motor, so i will DEFINITELY have a gear reduction in there.



Vigo probably realises this but I'll mention it for anyone humming along, the T1 injectors are rated 27lb at 55psi, and on a stock 3.0 regulator (48psi IIRC) will be a little lower, probably around 25lb.

Since you can now scale for injectors on an 89 3.0 smec afaik, i can just up the base pressure and set the cal for whatever injector size the upped pressure calculates out to. Im only planning on running 5-10 psi at first so i have some headroom with fuel pressure. I havent done any math with my pulley diameters so im not sure what the boost is going to be other than ballpark.

Kreel
04-13-2011, 11:59 AM
Since you can now scale for injectors on an 89 3.0 smec afaik, i can just up the base pressure and set the cal for whatever injector size the upped pressure calculates out to. Im only planning on running 5-10 psi at first so i have some headroom with fuel pressure. I havent done any math with my pulley diameters so im not sure what the boost is going to be other than ballpark.

How wide is the NB pulley? My FM pulley is ~ 5.25" IIRC. Using some rough calculations I guessed an stock m90 (3.8") on a stock 3.0L would yield 8-10psi. For my van I've opted to start with a 3.4" pulley since I'll have major headwork done, exhaust, headers (maybe not at first), and a ported m90. I'll probably have to drop even further if I want to hit 10psi...only time will tell.

Very cool project btw! Not only because I'm a fan of 3.0L m90 powered vans but the hybrid aspect gives it something totally unique which looks like it will pan out well :D

RoadWarrior222
04-13-2011, 12:07 PM
Opposed cone pullies and a spring tensioner... actuate hub separation with a choke cable = variable boost :eyebrows:

Vigo
04-14-2011, 12:38 AM
Here's the other Department of Energy document i was talking about, just click view document:
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cover.jsp?purl=/10167021-I1FKI3/native/

It suggests that the peak torque of this motor is 110lbft. I can honestly say i was wishing for a lot more.

Im going to try emailing UniQ and see what they can tell me.

RoadWarrior222
04-14-2011, 09:21 AM
Peak torque of a ~90HP IC motor is around 110ftlb so doesn't seem too terrible.

raccoon
04-14-2011, 12:19 PM
its always going to have that torque. even at low RPM its more then it seems.

Vigo
04-14-2011, 04:49 PM
It just presents challenges for trying to use this motor to give enough acceleration to be comparable to a regular AWD 5spd with a physical connection to the gas motor.

If i use a 3:1 reduction in front of the motor it's 110 X 3 X 3.45 = 1138 at the wheel.

Compare that to a stock 2.5 turbo in 1st gear (3.85 523), assuming 200lb ft its 200 X 3.29 X 3.85 = ~2500. Thats for a stock motor at peak torque.

In fact, you'd have to put the gas motor in 3rd gear to get the torque number down to ~1100 at the wheel.

So basically, at 20mph, the electric motor would be pushing the van about as hard as if you had it floored in 3rd gear at 20mph. Wooptydo.

There comes a point where i have to question if the weight and drag of the setup isnt going to hurt its acceleration more than it helps over something as long as a 1/4 mile.. Im not being pessimistic, but i want to be pragmatic.

Vigo
04-18-2011, 09:23 PM
Im pretty much settled on a 3:1 reduction now. The trick is going to be finding one and making it work. I think i need a planety gearhead, but when i google that theres thousands of them. So.. a little overwhelming. I might put off finding one until i have some other stuff figured out, like getting the diff and motor mounted in the van.

RoadWarrior222
04-18-2011, 10:15 PM
If it helps any, microlight aircraft with a belt reduction drive need 6 V belts to transmit 50-60HP through a 3:1 reduction pulley (Just in case you thought you wanted to stack pullies) .... but, no driveline shocks, so dunno if that would hold on a minivan.

Vigo
04-19-2011, 01:33 AM
Im not interested in using belts on anything. Im hoping to use a planetary gearhead, just have to figure out the right one and the right price... $$$

RoadWarrior222
04-19-2011, 07:58 AM
I'd be thinking of something like a geo metro manual trans then, left in 2nd gear... though dunno if it would be worth the weight of pulling the unused shafts and gears out compared to the convenience of being able to select a ratio when stopped.

RoadWarrior222
04-19-2011, 08:08 AM
Actually you just posted elsewhere you can get 2.6-3.7 ratios from an A413 in the transfer and ring and pinion, you could cut a spare A413 right down, even put an OBX in it.

Edit: oh wait are you already counting the rear diff ratio?

Vigo
04-19-2011, 12:42 PM
Yes im counting it. I dont have room for a full size transmission back there. The only kind of car transmission i could see using would be some rwd mini-car like an old Starlet or something with a really small trans case and even that is REALLY iffy. Right now im not seriously considering using a car transmission back there.

bakes
04-19-2011, 01:58 PM
What about a gear vendors overdrive unit for a 4X4.

Vigo
04-20-2011, 12:47 AM
An overdrive unit is only going to have a ~.7:1 ratio and id have to run it backwards to get a reduction, and it wouldnt be much reduction (~1.4:1?), and they cost too much.

I just need to get in contact with someone who designs or builds a lot of electrically driven systems that might use planetary gearheads. Id really prefer to snag something used out of a junk pile, but we'll see how it goes. This might be one of those situations where i actually have to pay full price for something. :p

Vigo
04-20-2011, 03:00 PM
A lot of 4wd transfer cases have 2.72:1 low ranges.. If i could find the smallest, lightest 2-range 4wd transfer case, that MIGHT work. Whats a TINY 4wd transfer case? Samurai? Tracker/Sidekick? Gimme some ideas...

Samurai t-case looks pretty small.. How funny would it be to have a shifter coming up through the floor in front of the 3rd row of seats?:confused::p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6kSh0-Kw1E

RoadWarrior222
04-20-2011, 04:00 PM
Raider? (Power Ram) D50?

Aries_Turbo
04-20-2011, 06:16 PM
tracker has a transfer case thats splined to the output of the transmission. the samurai case has nice and easy four bolt flanges on the in and output.

just cut the shifter off. youll be wanting it in 2.72:1 mode anyway right?

id also make a controller that when you get to redline of the elec motor, it makes sure that reverse mechanism is disengaged so that you dont over speed the elec motor when you are attempting to do regenerative braking and stuff.

you could put a solenoid on the shifter of the transfer case to pull it into high range or something when approaching redline of the elec motor and then puts it back into low range when stopped the next time for a nice launch. :)

brian

Vigo
04-20-2011, 08:39 PM
Good point about the flanges. Wonder how hard it would be to find a functional samurai t-case?

Id probably keep it in 2.72 all the time.

Im planning to make a circuit with an rpm switch that disengages the dog clutch so that the one-way clutch will keep the electric motor from over-revving.

As for shifting the transfer case on the fly, i googled it but im not totally sure of the ramifications.

Aries_Turbo
04-20-2011, 08:48 PM
probably not too hard to find one. they are fairly popular little trucks for offroading.

yeah LM2907 freq to voltage converter hooked to a VR sensor and the output of that to a LM324 op amp set up as a comparator that drives a MPS2222 transistor which triggers a relay. thats a pretty simple setup to build.

i think you can even setup the LM2907 to trigger an output when a certain frequency is reached as well and bypass the LM324 stage.

as for shifting the transfer case. i think you might be able to pull it into neutral but youd have to rev match the motor and the wheels to get it to go into the other gear without a huge crunch. thats why i said to shift it into the other gear when it comes to a stop.

Brian

RoadWarrior222
04-20-2011, 11:13 PM
No, use a 2N2222!!!

Sorry, just wanted to make like I was paying attention :D


Actually, there should be a way to do it with a 7Khz high pass filter which causes a cap to charge which trips a 2N2222 which drives a relay...

Unless you just wanna include an Arduino for blog cred.

Vigo
04-21-2011, 12:31 AM
probably not too hard to find one. they are fairly popular little trucks for offroading.

My friend Derrick reminded me that we walked straight past one just this last sunday in a local yard! Gads my memory is terrible..

But i might go look at it and if the price is right i'll jump.

Aries_Turbo
04-21-2011, 08:43 AM
No, use a 2N2222!!!

Sorry, just wanted to make like I was paying attention :D


Actually, there should be a way to do it with a 7Khz high pass filter which causes a cap to charge which trips a 2N2222 which drives a relay...

Unless you just wanna include an Arduino for blog cred.

lol. :P

yeah a HPF would work as long as its repeatable and accurate.

Brian

Vigo
04-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Well, i have good news and bad news on the samurai t-case idea...

The bad news is that the low-range reduction is only 2.26:1! Poo! The caveat is that you can get 4:1 gears for it, but they are $400+ new. :(

The good news is that the high-range actually has a 1.4:1 reduction, which imo makes it noticeably better for running the motor in the high-range because it will gear out at ~115mph instead of ~160.

I can very easily envision myself running around with it in high-range most of the time and then id keep my assist and regen ability during 99.5% of all my driving time. Since the motor makes ~50hp i SHOULD be able to cruise highway (for a limited distance) at 70mph. The bigger deal is that ill have REGEN at any speed which means ill use the hell out of it, just like my Insight.

So in spite of the low-range gearing i am even more sold on this idea. ;)

RoadWarrior222
04-22-2011, 12:44 AM
Something else to look at, what was the deally with those dual range Colts with a econo and sport stick... if that was bolted on behind the main case it might bear looking at.

RoadWarrior222
04-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Hokay, those don't look promising, the ratios are 1.11 and .86

Vigo
04-23-2011, 12:37 PM
Well, good news. I got the samurai T-case!

Strax22 and I got junkyard receipts together and scraped up $105 of cores (all junk, believe me) to turn in, so i got the ~$140 t-case for ~$30.

I havent taken the torque tube off the diff, or the adapter plate from the colt off the motor, and i havent cleaned ANYTHING, but i decided to lay it out so yall can get an idea of what the layout is going to be.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03809Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03812Large.jpg
Luckily, because of the way the diff input is offset, i can tuck the motor up right against it and minimize the total space this drivetrain is going to take up.

VERY luckily it also looks like the width between the input and output flanges on the t-case is JUST enough so that i can connect the 3 major components without having to use u-joints in any of the connections. They are all straight runs.

Aries_Turbo
04-23-2011, 01:16 PM
which way does the motor spin? is that all correct?

looks good. nice and compact.

brian

zin
04-23-2011, 03:37 PM
which way does the motor spin? is that all correct?

looks good. nice and compact.

brian

I would think the motor can be run in either direction, just reverse the polarity, so that shouldn't be an issue...

Looks like it'll be a runner!

Mike

Aries_Turbo
04-23-2011, 04:19 PM
I would think the motor can be run in either direction, just reverse the polarity, so that shouldn't be an issue...

Looks like it'll be a runner!

Mike

yeah that most likely will work, only thing though is that ive heard of motors that are biased to make more power in one direction which makes them less powerful in reverse.

Brian

RoadWarrior222
04-23-2011, 04:27 PM
That's usually an offset on the commutator or something so you can get into them and turn it backwards... but that's a straight DC motor, dunno 'bout this one.

Aries_Turbo
04-23-2011, 04:54 PM
yeah me neither. its something to look into though just incase.

StraX22
04-23-2011, 05:48 PM
With it being a brushless 3-phase motor, you should just have to swap two of the phases and swap the leads on the encoder to reverse rotation. It won't have an effect on power output.
Got the motor cleaned up and removed all of the various dead bugs and lizard skeletons. Time for some electric motor pron.

The output shaft with the adapter plate and coupling removed. It looks like someone had a slipping set screw at one point.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000589Medium.jpg

The rear inside of the motor with the fan assembly removed.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000586Medium.jpg

The taps look like they've been seriously overheated in the past. Some electrical testing is in order. Also, you can see the encoder and the two thermocouple leads.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000587Medium.jpg

A close-up of the custom encoder board. Looks to be of the hall effect type.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000588Medium.jpg

It weighs exactly 50 pounds and looks to be very serviceable. More info as it comes...

Vigo
04-23-2011, 10:46 PM
Ooh, hadnt seen that stuff before. Good thing i got friends to help push me along.. :)


which way does the motor spin? is that all correct?

Sadly, you win a prize because i was NOT correct.

I had domestic 4wd's on the brain when i took this picture, because the flange the motor is lined up with there is actually an output. :(
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03809Large.jpg
I can either flip the t-case over, have my shifter removed or removable, and deal with any potential oiling issues, or slide the t-case over and put the motor on the other side of the diff (passenger side in the van). The caveat there would be id have to make sure there's actually ROOM to fit the motor entirely to the passenger side of the differential input. Im not sure about that yet. If you look at the CV axle flanges on the differential, those give you an idea of where the centerline of the van is relative to all this junk.

RoadWarrior222
04-23-2011, 11:09 PM
Good thing i got friends to help push me along.. :)

Nice, I could use local partners in crime.




Sadly, you win a prize because i was NOT correct.

Gah, wishful thinking, will get you every time.

zin
04-25-2011, 03:17 PM
I'd bet that the T-case can be used as pictured, with vents plugged/relocated to prevent spills, and maybe the amount of fill oil adjusted to still provide the sling oiling it is used to/wants... Heck, this isn't a 500K mile durability study, so even if it wouldn't have ultimate durability, it should last as long as you have it and even then, those T-cases aren't that expensive anyway!

FULL STEAM AHEAD!! :-)

Mike

Vigo
04-25-2011, 09:13 PM
I mostly agree with you. However, not all t-cases are purely sling-oiled. Some have pumps. If i plan to turn this one over i'll have to take it apart and look at it for myself before i feel good about doing it.


FULL STEAM AHEAD!! :-)

:D


Here's a video of the car that pretty much inspired this idea for my van. Im going to put a LOT more polish on the interior controls part of the equation but clearly the two projects have a lot in common. That car also has a motor making ~110lb ft going through a ~2:1 reduction, and running off used Prius cells.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PkKCI7Ycg

RoadWarrior222
04-25-2011, 09:21 PM
Im going to put a LOT more polish on the interior controls part of the equation but clearly the two projects have a lot in common.

I read that and thought "damn, how fancy do you wanna get?" then watched the vid, hah, what a hack, yeah just matching switches fitted in a bezel are a "LOT" more polish LOL.

Vigo
04-25-2011, 09:47 PM
I wouldnt say what a hack about someone who managed to build that car. Form definitely follows function in an engineering exercise such as that. Im sure he would have made the interior pretty if he CARED to (like the execution in the front engine bay, if you can tell how much went into it) but like me he's got a bunch of other cars to spread the love among and he sold that car anywho.

My van doesnt make sense if it's not daily driveable (otherwise why bother putting all the components somewhere OTHER than the cargo area?), so the interior controls have to be a bit better to hit my goals. Doesnt mean im passing judgment on anyone else's goals for their own projects.

RoadWarrior222
04-25-2011, 09:58 PM
Well yup, being a GR challenge car wasn't it? a design goal was "cheap" so I'd have done the same thing, whatever switches are in the workshop or on the curb free, go in it, no point wasting $5 a pop at Radio Shack when other means will work....

Nashco
04-26-2011, 08:12 PM
I think you're going to want way more gear reduction than that. For reference, my EV1/S10 motor is only rated at about 130 ft lbs (0-4000 rpm) and tapers down to about 30 ft lbs at 13000 rpm, and it's got tons of torque when there's battery available. Not far off from yours, really. The big difference is that mine is geared sky high because it can spin so fast...11:1 gear reduction in it, a far cry from 2:1 you thought! Because of the 11:1 gears, it will only assist to 80 mph and will shut itself down after 100 mph or so, but it's torque city from a stop.

Looking at your DOE document you linked to in your build thread, you're at a pretty good efficiency range through the RPM range, that's a good thing. You also have a pretty high max rpm, that's also a good thing. If I was doing custom gears with a two speed box, I'd start with what I want the system to be capable of for maximum speed (ever) and maximum speed normally (highway speed). For daily driving, you don't want to be changing gears on the transfer case ever, that's just annoying. However, it sucks having a top speed of 80ish on the rare occassion you are racing or whatever, so starting in the other gear ratio for max speed is a nice option.

Doing some quick calcs and making an assumption on approximate tire size, I would think you'd want something more like 4:1 for max speed and 6:1 for daily driving. At 6:1, you're not going to be happy with the acceleration from a stop, IMO, but if you're trying to maximize overall efficiency and it will only be used an assist, then I think that's the compromise you'll need to make. If you want to drive in full EV mode on occassion, you'll want all the gears you can get. It's worth deciding if faster than highway speed will EVER be a concern...if not, then you could do something like a 10:1 for all electric mode (city driving) and 6:1 for daily driving. With 2.2:1 reduction, I think you'll be very disappointed with performance, and you'll be working your motor/batteries a hell of a lot harder for a given desired acceleration.

My battery setup is pretty simple. Take multiple Gen 2 Prius packs, disassemble, then reassemble as required. The Gen 1 packs are hard to find in good shape, while Gen 2 packs are extremely common and easy to find in good used shape at wrecking yards. They are very similar in construction, but not the same. Range varies with duty cycle, of course. For reference, a Prius can go about a mile at about 25 mph with optimum conditions in stock shape. If you had a vehicle with the same weight, power, and speed limit with three batteries, you'd go three times further. If you abuse the battery and discharge it deeper, you'd go further. If you need more power, speed, or weight, then you won't go as far. Pretty straightforward. Range sucks on these NiMH batteries compared to lithium, but the power:cost can't be beat. In a hybrid, you want power more than energy.

If you want 200V nominal, that's something like 24-28 modules in a row. My experience shows that you can get about .7 kW per module out of used junkyard packs, so each string of 26 modules is going to get you about 18 kW. Two of those will get you *just* enough power for your peak motor requirements, but that's beating the crap out of the battery. You may want to consider three strings if you can fit it and stand the weight penalty, making life way easier on the battery (improved life, increased capacity). The Prius/panasonic batteries package really nicely, might be able to do them under seats, false floor, or something like that with so much room to work with in a van.

Be really careful with parallel packs. Without battery balancing and with multiple strings, it gets tricky. I've learned a LOT since screwing up my contactors and inverter in Florida. Steep learning curve, but it all makes sense once you get through it. Of course, also be really careful with high voltage anything!!! Scary stuff, exercise with caution.

Oh, and for the record, I planned on making a pretty switch panel for the Fiero. Having built it in just a few months, I ran out of time for things like making pretty switch panels. During the concourse, I hid the switches behind the dash. The cleanest looking switch is the one that doesn't exist! I had a switch break at the challenge and Andy Nelson gave me one, and most of the others were free/near free. I planned on making a slick, automated setup that didn't have switches (amongst other cool things), but never did it. I focused on other car projects and now passed the torch to my buddy...hopefully he can pick up where I left off. You guys can make fun of my hybrid control switches when you build your hybrid control switches prettier. ;)

Bryce


---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

Oh yeah, and I've thought it would be cool to do a planetary based gearbox for a hybrid. Get the smallest auto trans planetary set that you dare fiddle with that has gears that will get the approximate ratios you want. Fab a simple setup to switch what is locked down and a housing to old it in some oil, and you've got one of the smallest gearsets available that will take lots of torque with the possibility to change ratios if you desire. Even if it was a manual locking pin or whatever for the rare occassion you want to go faster, it'd be nice to have. That's all the thought I've put into it, but it seems like it would offer a wide range of ratios with minimum weight/size. Efficiency might suffer, but I honestly don't know what a planetary set is like compared to spur/helical cut trans or transfer case gears in terms of efficiency.

What is up with this text formatting??? Weird forum interface

Bryce

Aries_Turbo
04-26-2011, 09:14 PM
adam, just toss a 525 box under there. all the ratios that you could ever want and i dont think your motor will kill it. chop as much of the bellhousing off so its lower profile. :)

brian

Vigo
04-27-2011, 01:30 AM
Thanks for posting up, Bryce! Since you posted a long reply i have some long clarifications for you to drudge through.. :p


I think you're going to want way more gear reduction than that. For reference, my EV1/S10 motor is only rated at about 130 ft lbs (0-4000 rpm) and tapers down to about 30 ft lbs at 13000 rpm, and it's got tons of torque when there's battery available. Not far off from yours, really. The big difference is that mine is geared sky high because it can spin so fast...11:1 gear reduction in it, a far cry from 2:1 you thought! Because of the 11:1 gears, it will only assist to 80 mph and will shut itself down after 100 mph or so, but it's torque city from a stop.

My motor apparently redlines at 7000 rpm. Im assuming a 245/45r18 tire size. The Samurai T-case has a 1.4:1 high range and a 2.2:1 low range. The differential itself (which is separate in my case, built in in yours) is 3.45:1.

Using that tire size, the 2.2:1 and the 3.45:1, i get 7000rpm @ ~70mph. The 1.4 high range will go to 115mph @7000 rpm.

Im wildly hoping that you forgot to consider the extra 3.45:1 from my differential when you are comparing my ~2:1 to your 11:1. The t-case and diff combined is closer to ~7.5:1 total reduction. Not as low as i'd like, but not so pitiful.



If I was doing custom gears with a two speed box, I'd start with what I want the system to be capable of for maximum speed (ever) and maximum speed normally (highway speed). For daily driving, you don't want to be changing gears on the transfer case ever, that's just annoying. However, it sucks having a top speed of 80ish on the rare occassion you are racing or whatever, so starting in the other gear ratio for max speed is a nice option.

My maximum normal speed, honestly, is ~100mph. I drive 50+miles at a time on major highways with major hills between major cities and probably break 90 once a day or so. Every few days i get a little over 100. The van, when i daily drove it, topped out at 100 so i typically only got it up to low 90s mph on a regular basis. However, now it has a lot more power.

I think normally i will be in the high range which would redline at 115. combine that with the overrunning one-way clutch in my differential (a strangely fortuitous feature) and the motor should be 'safe' at any speed the van can actually reach.


I would think you'd want something more like 4:1 for max speed and 6:1 for daily driving. At 6:1, you're not going to be happy with the acceleration from a stop, IMO, but if you're trying to maximize overall efficiency and it will only be used an assist, then I think that's the compromise you'll need to make. If you want to drive in full EV mode on occassion, you'll want all the gears you can get. It's worth deciding if faster than highway speed will EVER be a concern...if not, then you could do something like a 10:1 for all electric mode (city driving) and 6:1 for daily driving.

Assuming im right in thinking that my current number is ~7.5:1 in low range, I think i have already got an 'acceptable' setup. Definitely not the best for AWD launching, as you stated. However, for ~$400 i can get aftermarket gearing for the t-case that will take the low range to ~4:1. That combined with my diff will give ~13.8:1, which i think will launch pretty well. Whether or not i ever spend that money probably depends on how i feel about the performance with the existing parts after it's up and running.


My battery setup is pretty simple. Take multiple Gen 2 Prius packs, disassemble, then reassemble as required. The Gen 1 packs are hard to find in good shape, while Gen 2 packs are extremely common and easy to find in good used shape at wrecking yards. They are very similar in construction, but not the same. Range varies with duty cycle, of course. For reference, a Prius can go about a mile at about 25 mph with optimum conditions in stock shape. If you had a vehicle with the same weight, power, and speed limit with three batteries, you'd go three times further.

Here's an important question.. Is there any reason i cant use both gen1 and gen2 prius cells/modules together? As a practical matter i will HAVE to have parallel packs to have any real capacity from Prius batteries, so i will have to jump those hurdles of pack balancing.

As for range, this is sort of why i am not concerned about gearing the electric motor for highway speeds. It will not have much for range at ~70mph in a 3500lb brick if it takes all 50hp to maintain that speed and im using relatively low capacity batteries. The main reason i have for wanting the motor geared to operate in the highway speed range is to have assist and regen rather than full electric propulsion. I do want to have useful electric propulsion at low speeds, say up to 40mph.


If you want 200V nominal, that's something like 24-28 modules in a row. My experience shows that you can get about .7 kW per module out of used junkyard packs, so each string of 26 modules is going to get you about 18 kW. Two of those will get you *just* enough power for your peak motor requirements, but that's beating the crap out of the battery. You may want to consider three strings if you can fit it and stand the weight penalty, making life way easier on the battery (improved life, increased capacity).

I fully intend to do 3 strings. I probably will NOT have them all from the get-go, but i think with a little discipline i can run the system off the one string i have for testing purposes without ruining the batteries.


Oh yeah, and I've thought it would be cool to do a planetary based gearbox for a hybrid. Get the smallest auto trans planetary set that you dare fiddle with that has gears that will get the approximate ratios you want. Fab a simple setup to switch what is locked down and a housing to old it in some oil, and you've got one of the smallest gearsets available that will take lots of torque with the possibility to change ratios if you desire.

Since i rebuilt auto trannies for a while this was the first thought that came to my mind as well, but machining the housing would be pulling some favors or a decent chunk of change, and i THINK that with my current T-case idea, considering the option for aftermarket gearing for it, that i have enough gearing without having to build anything.

Let me know if my gearing ideas make sense when you include the diff ratio.

And thanks for the input!

Nashco
04-27-2011, 09:48 AM
I didn't consider that you're running this through another gear reduction on the diff as well, so that makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Are there different diff ratios available instead of going to aftermarket t-case gears? Explain this one way clutched diff, I'm confused how that protects the motor from overrevving.

If you parallel batteries with unequal characteristics, the imbalance will significantly increase the wear and tear on the batteries. When you regen, the weaker pack will charge up faster than the strong pack and you'll have to stop regen too soon. When you discharge, the weaker pack will run out of juice before the healthy pack, so you'll have to stop discharging too soon. As a result, the weak pack will get exercised really hard while the strong pack is never getting high or low voltage so it won't self-balance like it is supposed to. Obviously, this will work, but it won't work for long. If you don't isolate the packs when you turn the system off, the weaker pack will also discharge the healthier pack; in the case of a dead/weak cell, it could bring down the whole pack if one dead cell is discharging the entire non-isolated pack.

I have been able to keep parallel strings of Prius batteries alive by isolating them when they are not being used, then balancing them right before use. You saw my hair dryer...I planned (and had parts) to create a kind of pre-charge circuit that would first balance the individual packs, then would do normal pre-charge, then would finally close the main contactors. It would add to the wait time for contactors to close, but would be more elegant than the hair dryer thing. The automated part was mostly to open everything back up when I wasn't using it...I killed a set of batteries when I accidentally left them connected (balanced) for a few days (with my yellow plug). Once these NiMH cells go low, they will never come back to healthy again! That was an expensive mistake, had to buy another $300 worth of batteries. Fortunately I was still using cheap Prius batteries, if I had some lithium I'd definitely go straight to a decent BMS.

There may be better cheap ways of isolating parallel strings of NiMH when they're not being used, but I haven't found them. Not many people in the world are doing this, and even fewer are willing to talk about it without taking a lot of your money.

Bryce

RoadWarrior222
04-27-2011, 10:50 AM
I guess you could do something "useful" when pack balancing, like rigging it into a heater element and blower for defogging the windshield or a block heater for pre-warming the IC motor.

Vigo
04-27-2011, 01:40 PM
I didn't consider that you're running this through another gear reduction on the diff as well, so that makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Are there different diff ratios available instead of going to aftermarket t-case gears? Explain this one way clutched diff, I'm confused how that protects the motor from overrevving.

There is an overrunning one-way clutch (sprag) built into the rear diff housing. This allows the rear wheels to move faster than the front wheels so that the front brakes dont end up transmitting braking force through the rear end (maybe the AWD vans didnt all come with ABS). Therefore, any time the rear wheel speed is higher than the equivalent motor speed, the one-way clutch will just overrun instead of revving the motor. The downside is that this defeats reverse and regen by freewheeling in that direction, so the diff also has a dog clutch that engages to lock the whole thing up and defeat the sprag.

So, as long as that dog clutch is not engaged, i should not be able to over-rev the motor regardless of how fast im going. I plan to design a simple circuit using a motor RPM input to disengage that clutch automatically at motor redline so that it's dumb-proof.

Here's the dog clutch. The one-way clutch is basically inside it.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/IMG_3816.jpg


As for gearing, there are no different diff ratios available that i know of. Im using a factory AWD caravan rear differential and the AWD vans basically only came one way at any given time, so i am stuck with that part of it. Im not TERRIBLY upset about the idea of spending $400 on aftermarket t-case gears, i just know it wont happen right away.


As for the battery issues, it sounds like i will have to have more complicated battery management than i originally thought. Luckily i have 2 really clever local-ish friends who would be willing to help me figure that out. The first step for me will be breaking down the prius pack i have, testing the modules, and seeing where to go from there, like find another 1g prius pack or sell it off and go for 2g ones.

RoadWarrior222
04-27-2011, 02:03 PM
Well you can probably buy some "dead" ones, and swap out the good/bad cells.... but I s'pose everyone+dog is trying to do that.

---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

Oh out of the box idea, there's a bunch of consumer rechargable cells turning up in the dollar stores here by "Konnoc", the power density is a tad low (600mAh for an AA) but if they're cheap enough to sell a dollar a pair, then you might be able get a bulk lot direct from China for a reasonable price..... but it will be a bugger to wire up that many D-cells and have that many connections to worry about. Though I have heard of people doing it like mega long maglights with scaffolding poles or such.

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

A Hong Kong distributor...
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/273188322/NI_Cd_rechargeable_Battery_D_4000mAh.html
Apparently they also have NiMh up to 8Ah (8000mAh)

HK folks probably have English so easier to deal with.

Vigo
04-27-2011, 08:32 PM
My Insight has a pack of glorified D-cells and having looked at both that and the Prius packs the D-cells would be a HUGE PITA to build a pack out of compared to the simplicity of the Prius modules.


Ok now this is a highly theoretical situation, but if i got another 1g prius pack and all the modules were useable (.......) i could conceivably build 3 strings of ~180v each. This seems attractive. Someone tell me what im missing.

Vigo
05-01-2011, 12:33 AM
I lowered the front of the van today to match the back. Since ive been getting rid of a lot of spares/junk i barely had enough parts sitting around to do it!

I had a used car gr-2 strut and some other unknown car strut that seemed 'ok', and the stock springs that came out of my Spirit that i put neon/pt struts on (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?43833-89-Dodge-Spirit-project/page7&highlight=89+dodge+spirit).

Luckily that seemed to put it about where it needs to be. If i wanted perfection id drop the front another 3/4" or so, but i think that when i move the fuel tank forward and swap to a 3.0 i might just add enough weight over the front to do that without modding the springs.

Of course, since i was messing with stock springs they were a total PITA because their free length is so much taller than their mounted length that you have to compress the hell out of them to get them on a strut. $12 harbor freight coil compressors worked, but thank the gods for my impact doing all the work to turn them.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03813Large.jpg
Giant minivan spring next to slightly-less-giant spirit spring. I had to disassemble the struts that were on there so i could use the strut tops.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03816Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03814Large.jpg
I still need to do the front bolt-pattern conversion. I already converted to 91-up spindles and 11" brakes, and i have some 11" 5x114.3 rotors so all i need to finish the swap is the bolt-in 5x114.3 wheel bearings.

I also bypassed a heater hose hard line that burst during a hard freeze a few months ago. I went up and down the street and it seems to ride pretty well.

RoadWarrior222
05-01-2011, 08:17 AM
Hmmm, I wouldn't have messed with the springs much until you have all that extra weight under it. You might end up redoing it all.

Vigo
05-01-2011, 09:55 AM
I doubt it. I still have 3" of wheelwell gap on both ends, so it can sag quite a bit before its 'too low' imo. The determining factor will be whether i feel like i need more ground clearance for all the components im sticking under there.

RoadWarrior222
05-01-2011, 10:24 AM
Right, you might not need so much ground clearance if you pay attention to the breakover angle and approach and departure angles and keep them reasonable for the worst speed humps and parking lot entrance ramps etc. So as little as possible hanging down in the middle of the wheelbase and try and push the big stuff toward one end or the other.

RoadWarrior222
05-10-2011, 10:17 AM
Not sure how close you are to Austin, but didya know about these folks?
http://www.austinev.org/about/index.html

Vigo
05-10-2011, 11:03 AM
Nope, thanks for the link. Looks to be several local guys with completed projects there.

Vigo
05-21-2011, 12:33 AM
This isnt exactly highly relevant to what i want to do with this van but i raced it against Strax22s SWB 2.5/5spd turbo van for shits and giggles. Both on wastegate boost (his motor just came together, i just didnt have a boost controller handy) and starting from a low speed roll in 1st (below spool rpm). Since mine has a mitsu on it and tbi pistons it spooled faster in first but by the top of 2nd he was pulling. His 2pc , garrett, and vastly superior charge piping seem to make a difference even at baby boost.

/ useless info.

Vigo
06-03-2011, 09:42 PM
So i was using the van to move a dead jeep around the driveway and when i pulled out into the street to turn it around and let the clutch out (with, you know, almost full throttle) it broke the inner CV on the driver's side.

I think i took apart my spare van axles to make the stubs for the rear hubs. Damn.

Vigo
06-26-2011, 11:36 PM
Finally got around to tearing down my first Prius battery pack.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/P1000642Medium.jpg
It weighs a little over 100lbs. Almost 4ft long.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/untitled1-1.jpg
38 7.2v prismatic NiMH cells.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/P1000644Medium.jpg
All individually bolted to the case.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/P1000645Medium.jpg
Numbering cells.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/untitled-3.jpg
And now ready to be charged and tested. The orange things are the factory bus bar strips.

shackwrrr
06-27-2011, 06:54 AM
In college we had one in a case for alternate fuels class. If it wasn't under glass im sure that someone would have poked and prodded enough to make sparks or remove skin. Ours was topped off before the toyota guy gave it to the school so its still got 270 or so volts.

Vigo
06-27-2011, 02:26 PM
If i was already teaching im guessing it would motivate me to get this done a lot faster. Shared enthusiasm and all that.

This pack is literally DEAD, been sitting for years. It will be interesting to see how much of it can be brought back.

RoadWarrior222
06-27-2011, 04:38 PM
Anything reading a millivolt or two should take charge, look out for reverse polarity cells though.

Vigo
07-19-2011, 05:38 PM
A friend of mine is doing some exploratory testing on the NiMH cells.

So far, a 7.2v brick, starting from a fully charged state of ~8.0v, is able to discharge 4.0 amps for over an hour before dropping to 6v (1v per cell). To me this is pretty amazing.

He has not gotten to the point of testing higher discharge rates yet. I'm excited to see how many amps can be pulled off one of these bricks for a short time (~10 seconds?) without damaging them, as my main measure of performance on this build is going to be 0-60mph times, basically.

Id like to get the van into the high 5s 0-60, if not better, and remember that the low-range on the t-case has the electric motor gearing out at ~70mph, so this wide-open kind of discharge shouldnt last more than ~7 seconds at a time, and possibly be much shorter.

RoadWarrior222
07-19-2011, 06:12 PM
Well I hope your bud knows what he's doing, and brings it down slow, with fast reacting temperature monitoring, because super high discharge rates could be explosive. Then remember, one brick might manage to dissipate heat quick enough, but bunch 'em all up and it's a different story. There's maybe data on this sort of crap in RC electric car racing circles though..... though I don't know if they want packs that last less than 5 mins say, for all the power density they want.

shackwrrr
07-19-2011, 08:33 PM
Well I hope your bud knows what he's doing, and brings it down slow, with fast reacting temperature monitoring, because super high discharge rates could be explosive. Then remember, one brick might manage to dissipate heat quick enough, but bunch 'em all up and it's a different story. There's maybe data on this sort of crap in RC electric car racing circles though..... though I don't know if they want packs that last less than 5 mins say, for all the power density they want.

I would hope that these packs are tougher than a normal R/C pack. Ive seen some pretty high draw rates on some of my R/c's I use to have. It looks like those packs are probably rated at 5Ah which is pretty much the limit on NiMh packs.

In the prius the pack has a cooling system that pushes outside air through the pack.

Vigo
07-20-2011, 01:00 AM
It does have a cooling fan, but all it does is push air through the big outer shell i pictured earlier. As you can see, the vast majority of the surface area of each brick is only exposed to other bricks and not much is exposed to open air in the case, so i am not sure how much cooling really gets done unless the temperature difference between cell and air is pretty big. It is probably like an intercooler.. mostly a heat sink in the short term, and a heat exchanger after the fact.

As for the high amp draw testing, i think the goal is to test enough cells to get an idea of what the lowest common denominator is, and then test one or a small number of cells to possible destruction and infer those abilities to the rest of the cells.

Vigo
08-01-2011, 03:04 PM
Expanding a little bit on those last thoughts..

The bricks are 6.5ah. They have been charged at 15 amps without heating up appreciably. This makes me think that i will never heat them up with regen since it would take 400+ amps of regen to equal 15 amps per brick and even that wasnt getting them hot.

I dont know yet how fast i can pull amps off of them so there's still the possibility of overheating them with discharge. Yet to be determined.

Once i know more about all that i can think about what my pack cooling scheme is going to be, or if i'll even have one. I think there's a chance i wont have to do anything at all..

Testing a cell to destruction: my friend already took a cell to a complete discharge and charged it back up to 100% capacity, so i dont think depth of discharge is going to be what hurts these things. Probably pulling too many amps will be the only thing i'll have to worry about.

My controller SAYS 200 amps on the data plaque but the previous owner pegged a 400 amp gauge with it. If it only takes 200 amps off the pack thats only 7 amps per brick, no problem there. If it pulls 400+ i may have to be careful about it.

If i assume that the heat is the same at 15 amps whether charging or discharging them, 28 bricks (x 7.2 = 200v pack) x 15a = 420a. So 420 amps @ 200v should not heat the bricks up anymore than charging one at 15amps did.. That's the thought. We'll see :p

Aries_Turbo
08-01-2011, 07:00 PM
My controller SAYS 200 amps on the data plaque but the previous owner pegged a 400 amp gauge with it.

you think thats why the motor terminals looked hot?

brian

Vigo
08-01-2011, 08:21 PM
Maybe, or that + not having a good connection. If my setup can do 400 amps safely (safe for controller and batteries) i'll damn sure do it, and if the motor leads dont like it i'll take the motor apart and upgrade them. :)

Nashco
08-03-2011, 09:22 PM
You're mixed up. In a single string, the voltage of each brick adds up (8+8+8+...etc) but the current in one is the same as the entire string current. So, 400 amps into the string means 400 amps into each brick! In my experience, you only get 100-150 amps out of a brick...figure roughly .75ish kW per brick.

Bryce

Vigo
08-04-2011, 03:54 AM
Good thing i have people to tell me these things!

In that case i am back to my original thought of needing 2-3 parallel packs to get my motor up to full power (as you suggested). I should be able to operate the system off one string, but i will NOT be able to give the motor full power off of only one string.

Do you have any advice on inferring how much regenerative braking my setup will give? I know that the Insight supposedly dumps 50a into a 144v pack and that braking feels adequate, but the van will weigh closer to ~3500 lbs..

Nashco
08-04-2011, 06:02 PM
Regen capacity is a function of the motor and inverter. Generally speaking, the power electronics will regen just as much as they will discharge. So, if it was 60 kW of power, that's also 60 kW of regen. If you don't have a good feeling for what that means, imagine driving with only 60 kW of power. Flat ground, hills, etc. would have a certain expected performance...now imagine that same rate of acceleration or grade, but in the opposite direction. In the end, the best way to see how it will feel is to drive it. Gearing, motor performance curves, power electronics controls, and even battery performance all factor in.

Bryce

RoadWarrior222
08-04-2011, 08:15 PM
If you don't have a good feeling for what that means, imagine driving with only 60 kW of power. Flat ground, hills, etc. would have a certain expected performance...now imagine that same rate of acceleration or grade, but in the opposite direction. I

I think he's describing an '84 carbed 2.2 mini :D

Vigo
08-04-2011, 08:22 PM
The motor is ~32kw / 52hp iirc.

52hp of braking is a pretty good amount (considering most braking is gradual anyway and i still have hydraulics for anything they cant do). It should be very useful at that level. :)

Kimonoskunk
08-08-2011, 07:36 PM
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03788Large.jpg

I know it's late asking, but what rims are they? CSRT4's?

Droooollllllssss :D

Can they fit my Turbo 89?

Kimmyskunk

Vigo
08-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Those are mazda rx-8 wheels. They are 18x8, 5x114.3. MOST 89 turbo vans (the vast majority) are 5x100 so they would not bolt right on. The AWD rear axles are all 5x114.3 which is why it bolts to my van.

Vigo
08-22-2011, 01:58 AM
Since ive been planning to swap to 3.0 all along, ive never cared about the motor that was in this van. Im pretty sure ive dumped used oil into it when it's gotten low before. It's the tbi motor that was in there before i put the turbo parts on it, and i have no use for it other than to entertain me unto its own death.

So, with that in mind i decided i wanted to drag race the minivan. I spent ~12hrs this weekend screwing with it, including replacing the broken axle, doing an intercooler "install", finding numberous small problems, and just generally not working very hard. This is all coming out after i blow it up so i did not make it pretty.

It's had a probe intercooler on it for a long time now, but it was just sitting in the engine bay right behind the radiator. I only put it in in the first place because i didnt have enough pipe scraps to connect the turbo to the TB without using it to bridge the gap! Among my friends it was humorously referred to as the 'interwarmer'. 15psi on my tbi motor and it didnt blow up.

Ive always wanted to try a top mount with it, and putting louvers on the hood. I know Gary D did a top mount probe IC on his van long ago, but im not aware that he ever vented the hood for it. I kept a spare hood the last time i parted a caravan so i have nothing to lose..

So now it has a top-mount probe IC with an intercooler fan (tiny rad fan from ~87 accord i scrapped) with it's own relay tied into the coil circuit of the radiator fan really so they always operate in tandem. I also wired a manual switch inside to control that circuit as well. It also has a probe BOV on it.

I put the spare hood on and cut a nasty hole with a cutoff wheel on an angle grinder. I kept the hole small in case i ever want to finish it out to a proper shape and put louvers in.

I was monitoring it with my old OTC but my o2 and knock readings are both VERY suspect so i stopped at 15 (where it was before). With retarded base timing (~9* right now), upped fuel pressure on stock injectors (i built an AFPR out of a log FPR and run it in series with the stocker), and narrowband o2 and knock monitoring, via OTC, i'm hoping it will hold unplugged-wastegate boost with a little race gas in it. But will my T1 clutch that's been driven on for ~5yrs hold it?

I did not get many good pics with my camera, but i will get more.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03912Large.jpg
The workbench got cluttered.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03913Large.jpg
Zip ties ftw. There are two brackets and two 10mm bolts that hold the IC in. I did not 'make' the brackets per se.. The two pieces involved are exactly as they fell out of the hood with no further mods and just happened to work! :p
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03914Large.jpg
I moved the starter relay over and added another stock relay to run the fan.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03921Large.jpg
I took pics with the hood down too.. but only with phones! oops.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03918Large.jpg
Here is the crack in the block that i dont care about. It happened this year when it actually got down below freezing long enough for something to happen. First time in the 10 yrs ive been messing with cars down here.. I almost forgot it was possible. Think some block-sealer will fix it long enough for me to melt the pistons? lol

RoadWarrior222
08-22-2011, 06:38 PM
That's kind of ironic... folks complaining about the freeze plugs popping all the time and yours didn't pop when it was supposed to and cracked the block beside it... go figure.

Vigo
08-22-2011, 08:34 PM
I had one freeze plug pop out on my 3.3 dynasty. I also had 2 cracked water pump housings and a popped heater hose. Maybe if i'd had $100 more dollars of antifreeze in my dozen cars i wouldnt have had this $100 of damage. :p

RoadWarrior222
08-22-2011, 08:40 PM
Well $10 worth could do 4 cars if you only want -8C worth of protection... or something like that. Then the oldskool method, which my dad tended to employ, which was run the cars warm when the sun went down, then drop old blankets over the motors.

Vigo
08-22-2011, 10:23 PM
Well i dont even have all my cars in the same city so im glad it doesnt freeze very often.. it would become a big hassle. :p

I need to figure out an o2 sensor problem and verify the knock sensor is working. They were both reading funny on the OTC.

Vigo
08-25-2011, 01:11 AM
Figured out the o2 and knock sensor problems.. o2 was dead and knock sensor was.. MIA! I guess i stole it for something else and forgot it was missing until i tried to read it, hah!

Found a fuel pressure problem, its dropping at WOT. Was getting light knock retard but im fixing the fuel before chasing that in circles.

Started building a drip tray also. :p

Took a pic with the hood down. I need to cut more bracing out of the hood so that i can adjust the brackets to make the IC sit flush with the hole. It's a very rough-cut hole as of right now too.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03922Large.jpg
You can also see the nasty fender and 1/4. After the track trip it's going to a friend's shop so he can help me replace quarters on both sides. I also have a fender for it. If the motor is still alive and i find some louvers i will do that as well.

StraX22
08-25-2011, 07:28 PM
That would definitely explain things a bit!

Big_P
08-25-2011, 07:48 PM
They're called "core plugs" and they're not made to pop out when your coolant freezes :thumb:

Vigo
08-25-2011, 08:54 PM
I guess the one that fell out of my 3.3 dynasty instead of everything else breaking didnt get the memo! :p

Ondonti
08-27-2011, 08:18 AM
I drained both my cars this winter but not the actual blocks and BOTH popped a plug. You running premium? Really no excuse these days not to with the tiny difference in overall high gas prices.

Big_P
08-27-2011, 10:10 AM
I guess the one that fell out of my 3.3 dynasty instead of everything else breaking didnt get the memo! :p
Ya got lucky there :thumb:

Vigo
08-27-2011, 11:23 PM
Brent, i am running premium in the van as long as it's boosted. I dont want any silly reasons to ruin my TBI piston parade. LOL

Yeah Pete that was about the luckiest i got in the whole thing.. but.. i havent looked to see how hard it will be to put another one in there yet. :p

More work on the van tomorrow :)

Vigo
08-29-2011, 01:43 AM
I put some colder NGKs in the van. I had 2, but since someone VICIOUSLY BORROWED the other 2 i had to buy 2 more. That cost me $4!!

I bypassed the fuel filter real quick to see if it was my volume problem, but it wasn't. So, i dropped the tank down (not totally out) and pulled the pump only to find this:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03932Large.jpg
That's what was left of my pump strainer. The rest of it was clogging my pump inlet.

Unfortunately i had just put my last spare strainer in my 78 volvo which i rigged up a spare TM fuel pump into. I didnt feel like driving to the parts store or paying them the $14 they want for those things either. Luckily i still had the pump that came out of the volvo with it's brand new strainer on it. It didnt fit the dodge pump style at all.. at first!
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03931Large.jpg
I cut down the outer ring so i could snap the inner ring onto the clips you see there. So that worked and cost $0.

My pump wasnt actually bad but i had just picked up a used Walbro from the Jyard out of a shelby charger for $21, so i decided to put it in right now, even though it doesnt need it yet. So i guess i have $21 in my walbro and home-brew strainer setup.

Now i got all the pressure i need!

Didnt make my knock counts go away.. I put teflon tape on the knock sensor and the counts got smaller, but i am still perplexed by the fact that im reading ANYTHING at ~10 psi (turned it down for testing) on 93 oct with 9* base timing. So im going to swap out the knock sensor for my last spare next time im working on it and see what happens.

I also temporarily converted my windshield washer setup into an ice-water intercooler sprayer using some Mister Landscaper pieces from Lowe's. And one piece of duct tape, just to go with the theme.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03928Large.jpg

It's sort of fun building a max-ghetto setup without caring how it looks because it's all coming back out for a motor swap anyway. We have a lot of laughs doing this goofy stuff.

Vigo
08-29-2011, 09:52 PM
Oh and i forgot to mention that while i was fixing my pump i had a close encounter with a black widow that was living on my van. I killed it with fire..and then i started to kill the egg-sack with fire, but they started popping like popcorn and that made me feel really weird, so i stopped. LOL

Ondonti
08-30-2011, 02:55 AM
I think you are lacking on the fire around your gas tank. Wimp.

Kimonoskunk
09-03-2011, 05:48 PM
I was wondering, do you have a spare rear axle assembly available, NON-AWD small bolt pattern as well. As I'm having trouble finding one here in the area. Let me know how much?

Kimmyskunk

Vigo
09-04-2011, 02:10 AM
I recycled it. I'm surprised you're having any issues with finding such a common part! Remember that any caravan 84-95 with the 5x100 bolt pattern should have the axle you need.

Vigo
09-04-2011, 02:33 AM
On Friday i was trying to pull my 87 dakota out of its spot where it sunk into the ground a little after the ground got wet (from cleaning the pool, sure as ---- not from rain). The 96 dakota wasnt even having any real effect because of traction issues (trucks + open diff = fail) so i had to use the Minivan. It eventually worked, but i managed to bend the bumper on the 87 since i was pulling on the hitch ball. The minivan is, of course, completely unscathed. Because Van = Win.

It did make me wish my AWD was already up and running. I need it to pull things out of holes and go off-roading and stuff.

Kimonoskunk
09-04-2011, 08:36 AM
I recycled it. I'm surprised you're having any issues with finding such a common part! Remember that any caravan 84-95 with the 5x100 bolt pattern should have the axle you need.

I was looking at a few yards locally, and all they said were the ones to 1990 were ones that fit. So I will print this page out and go back to some of the lots, and see if I can get one at last. :D
I'm learning, slowly but surely.

Kimmyskunk.

Vigo
01-22-2012, 08:45 PM
I ran a 15.2@88 in the 3.0/3.77 dynasty. Im not sure if i will ever run the 3.0/3.50 van setup before m90 but it makes me think it should at least be able to break into the 15s.

Still, noone, or only one person, has ever produced such a slip. Didn't someone used to have a modded out 3.0/5-spd LWB van that had a 15.9 slip?

RoadWarrior222
01-22-2012, 10:45 PM
`Phatfoto?

Vigo
01-22-2012, 11:50 PM
huh? i dont get it.

RoadWarrior222
01-23-2012, 07:13 AM
The guy who had a modded long wheelbase 3.0 van.

RoadWarrior222
01-23-2012, 08:48 AM
Oh btw, on unofficial timing, I figure my van runs about 17.5 with both seats, full size spare(50lb), 40lb tools/junk and a couple of gallons of misc spare fluids, half a tank of gas and 220lb of me.... and I still think it's lighter than Simons... :D ... I should take it to the track "race prepped" (i.e. seats and junk out) and see if it will get into the 16s.

Vigo
01-23-2012, 12:24 PM
I think you should take the escort and see if it actually runs 15s.........

I dont remember the name of the guy who owned it, but i think i remember seeing it on robs korner back in the day.. maybe it was his?

RoadWarrior222
01-23-2012, 01:10 PM
I should, it's slightly crippled by a cheapskate exhaust fix at the moment though (Section of old smaller tubing in it) didn't want to fork out $100 for a piece I would be junking if/when I find a header, put a high flow cat and full 2.25" system on... it's possibly due to restriction that it started eating flexpipes.... will have to jump on that this spring, because I'm suspecting stock cat is about done, and for the $300 I would spend on direct replacement cat and fitted OEM replacement pipes, I could probably do something quite a lot nicer. Funnily, with the exhaust wide open at the flexpipe, it was slower, with the pipe patched but no muffler, it was faster than that but slower than before, then the new walker SoundFX muffler went on and it got a little faster, but still just off what it was... must be real sensitive for momentum scavenging... which I kinda suspected, hence not going for 2.5" and also holding out to find '89 GT headers rather than the cheap eBay OBX ones, that are on the large side.

Vigo
01-26-2012, 10:24 PM
Since Strax22 broke his 568 im thinking about SHAMELESSLY STEALING his 568 guts for the tall-gear hybrid 543 i want to build.

I ran the numbers and with a 245/45r18 tire and a 568/3.5fd 543, 3rd gear will do 115+ and 5th gear will do ~2200 rpm at 70. Exactly what i want!

RoadWarrior222
01-26-2012, 11:16 PM
That would be interesting... dunno if you'd get anything by doing it... but it would be interesting. :D

Meaning that despite turning less RPM, you might end up sucking about the same amount of gas, because it's lower down the torque hump and probably needs more lb/bhp

Vigo
01-26-2012, 11:28 PM
Based on my vague impressions, a 3.0 @~2200 rpm should not need much load to maintain 70. I dont know if it will be ideal but i think it will be close enough that im not digging myself a hole.

1st_Turbo_Car
08-07-2012, 01:51 AM
Where has this gone since January. I just spent the last 3 hours reading all of this. (It took that long because some of it had to be re-read several times so I could process it)

Vigo
08-07-2012, 02:53 AM
It's gone nowhere.. :(

At the first of the year, i got slammed with work and had no free time, and then at the beginning of summer the work went away and i had the unenviable position of having free time but no inclination to work on my projects and no good place to do it. I have since quit my tech job since being a tech makes me not want to work on my own cars and i like my hobby more than the job. Applying for a few teaching gigs currently.

Im SUPPOSED to be moving into a house with a GARAGE next month!

Sorry to disappoint!

1st_Turbo_Car
08-09-2012, 11:52 PM
No disappointment, this is all a learning experience for me. Hope that house thing works out and thanks for all the great info and pics

Rrider
08-10-2012, 04:49 PM
Just read thru this also, looks like a nice plan. Gettin' hwy mpg in town would be win, not to mention the launch assist..

Vigo
09-08-2012, 10:57 PM
bought a cheap 3.8 grand caravan to part out for a bunch of other cars (mine and my friends'). My 90 dynasty is getting a 3.8 swap. My cousin's 3.8 T&C got several part Im taking the 5x114.3 front bearings for my van to finally finish the bolt pattern conversion.

I just gave my 11" 5x100 brake setup to Strax22 for his turbo 95 van. He also took the BCM because his has a blown dimmer function and he took the overhead console and ac compressor too.

I also used the van to haul loads of trash and boxes for my upcoming move to a new place.

All that for $325, and it had working ac and a full tank of gas. I recovered the refrigerant and drove through all the gas too. lol

I love deals like that where you can part it out ten different ways and give your friends free parts and upgrade your other cars and drive it around before you take it apart and then scrap it and get all your money back.

Vigo
09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Finished the 5x114.3 front brake conversion.

AND found that it wont start now.. Worked a week ago..

Sounds like the hose coming off the fuel pump popped or popped off. Down with the tank again.. grumble..

shackwrrr
01-18-2014, 11:01 PM
Too bad you're not closer to Ohio, was as Canton pull a part today and they had a 2003 Prius battery pack for $50.

Vigo
01-19-2014, 01:57 PM
Snap!! That woulda been awesome! Shipping would suck, though. :(

shackwrrr
01-19-2014, 02:12 PM
"Anything liquid, perishable, or potentially hazardous?"...

"No, just a couple batteries with a residual voltage around 200v, that's safe to mail right ?

Vigo
01-19-2014, 02:16 PM
Yeah, even if there were no other issues the weight and size would make it expensive. :(

zin
01-19-2014, 03:44 PM
Just ship it via truck, but there is an economy of scale that would make this deal a bit too small, kinda needs to be cubic palette size to be economical, but at least you don't have to worry about the hazardous nature of it precluding them being shipped, but might have to pay an extra $50.00 fee or so.

Mike

shackwrrr
01-19-2014, 08:19 PM
If I lived in my own place I would have picked it up, either for my own projects or the possibility of someone up here going down there that could haul it.