Juggz TIII Shelby Charger swap

[Juggy]

Ok since my sorta TIII thread got sidetracked, I finally got around to decide to start one in the project log for any of those who where actually interested in the build....

I acquired the TIII setup for some cash and my drag rims. after parting out most of my 8 valve setup, it pretty much paid for itself. I figure ill have no more then 1200-1500 into the complete swap, including a bunch of perf parts, as which most have been acquired. the engine ran 13.2 @ 107mph on 7psi boost short shifting at 5k rpm in a drag setup shelby charger, the car really needed to be tuned, and was super rich....

the engine is a 2.5L TIII lotus completely rebuilt. the top end has all new guides and valve job. bottom end has arp studs/rod bolts, polished beams, venolia pistons. the oil pan is baffled and setup for drag racing, and has some screen to help protect the crank from oil. I recently did some modifications to the pan to help oil control and fix a couple imperfections.

Since Ive acquired the setup I basically selling a bunch of 8v stuff and using it to get the perf stuff for the lotus head....

heres a basic run off on the setup:
2.5L TIII lotus
ported manifolds/head/turbine housing
adjustable cam gears
gt3076r turbo with .63 turbine housing
ATP UI swingvalve
3" exhaust
spearco 1080cfm IC 2.5" IC piping

.....also have a wet kit, and a meth kit....lol....

trans is a 568 and ill be running the aluminum flywheel. distributor on the side of the head and using SMEC electronics and tuning will be done by me with the ostrich emulator and a datalogging cable to run from the laptop the the stock computer.

i have some more pics to take of a few things.....and a couple things i wont bother posting pics of ;) (sorry couldnt resist lol). I some of my attachments so ill have to upload photos again....

I got all the stuff to make a custom manifold I just have had any time to try n get on a bridgeport or ask someone who works in a show to do it for me so at this point it looks like ill be running the stock manifold for now until i can get that worked on. i have a 62mm jeep TB for this.

[Turbo224]

Is this going in your Charger?

[BadAssPerformance]

Subscribed.

[Juggy]

yep its going into my 87 charger. best of 12.0@115mph with 20 psi boost and 40 psi static fuel pressure lots of knock disconnect the knock sensor :lol:

heres a couple pics of the oil pan and pick up given too me...not sure what it came out of?? but i was thinking of using it...


i was trying to pull the valves out of the head today, but the damn valve spring compressor i spent 120 bucks on BROKE the very first valve i went to use it on....so i need to give napa their POS tool and get my $$$ back. I just ordered a KD 3087 on ebay about 20 minutes after the incident....

[shelbymonster]

stop breaking tools and work on that car !!!

[Juggy]

stop breaking tools and work on that car !!!

id rather break tools then my elbow :p
but then again at least you have an excuse why you havent worked on the car....lol!!

[shelbymonster]

id rather break tools then my elbow :p
but then again at least you have an excuse why you havent worked on the car....lol!!

lol wow thats not nice haha

[GLHNSLHT2]

I like that oil pickup I think :)

[Juggy]

I like that oil pickup I think :)

jay got it from a friend. he got it from another local. apparently came off an EARLY car??? he was sayn 83-84 n/a
id love to get some feedback on it. as im unsure if its good to use or what?! it def looks like it wont have a problem picking up oil....i just want to make sure it wont suck any air in....hence my Q on another thread about asking how much oil is actually in the engine when its running, at any given time....

[Juggy]

got a valve spring compressor. currently ripping the head apart so i can start porting this weekend.
found #3 exhaust valves covered with some oil....strange cause it was suppose to have all new valve seals? yet theres 4 black and 4 red ones....lol....idk....

[turbovanman²]

Nice, I like that pickup, shouldn't have any issues as long as you have oil. I would run a windage tray with the CB oil pan though, otherwise you could risk oil starvation on launch.

The pu looks like a normal bs CB unit, just modded with the end removed and then wrapped with that steel mesh.

[dds78910]

Looks good! Where are you guys buying those intake manifold setups from?

[turbovanman²]

Lengel makes them. Not sure if he has any left.

[Juggy]

Nice, I like that pickup, shouldn't have any issues as long as you have oil. I would run a windage tray with the CB oil pan though, otherwise you could risk oil starvation on launch.

The pu looks like a normal bs CB unit, just modded with the end removed and then wrapped with that steel mesh.

apparently its STOCK MOPAR pick up....from an early car.....i couldnt tell you which tho.....

yes I do plan too use it for sure!!
anyway the head has been completely torn down. about to start porting 2morrow. was suppose to be 2day but i have already gotten in the alcohol too much LOL....
i got the KD-3087 tool. heres my experience using it:

after figuring it out how it actually works on our setups (gotta bolt down the rocker arm) it was pretty much a breeze removing everything. i will have too say it was very time consuming (1.5 hours). there isnt much room to work with. now that its all apart i plan to grind the top end where the springs are, and make clearance for the spring compressor tool. the way its been machined from the factory left a small lip, and the tool is rubbing/stopping it from compressing the spring down. i was able to get them all out, but now that its disassembled i plan to clear what little meat is causing trouble.

now that things are out I pan to weigh the stock retainers, and the Ti retainers...does anyone have these #s??? its been a little bit since I picked up a Ti retainer, but the stockers dont feel all too bad....im estimating approx 30-35 grams (dont ask how i know LOL)...couldnt tell ya what the Ti ones weigh.....

---------- Post added at 06:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------


Looks good! Where are you guys buying those intake manifold setups from?

yep lengel. i went the cheaper route. i have to do my own injector bores and fuel rail provision.
however i do have machining experience. which is no issue....the issue is trying to find machines to work on since i decided to get out of "the trade"

need to get in contact with a "friend of a friend"....i can get into his machine shop for the small price of 24 buds!! ($44 cdn......yes 24 beers....44 DOLLARS....)

[CNH320]

$44 cdn......yes 24 beers....44 DOLLARS....)

Which is like $50 USD by the way! :(

[4 l-bodies]

jay got it from a friend. he got it from another local. apparently came off an EARLY car??? he was sayn 83-84 n/a
id love to get some feedback on it. as im unsure if its good to use or what?! it def looks like it wont have a problem picking up oil....i just want to make sure it wont suck any air in....hence my Q on another thread about asking how much oil is actually in the engine when its running, at any given time....
Cory, that is from a 86-87 maybe 88 TD 2.5. Made for balance shaft pan.
Todd

[Rampage16V]

NIce intake...very cool!

[dds78910]

Which is like $50 USD by the way! :(

Are you telling me a case of beer cost $50 in Canada! If so that is more than double what it is here.

[Vigo]

Cory, that is from a 86-87 maybe 88 TD 2.5. Made for balance shaft pan.
Todd

I knew i had one of those but couldnt remember what motor it was on.. that sounds right though, i think it's my 86 2.5 tall block. :)

[CNH320]

Are you telling me a case of beer cost $50 in Canada! If so that is more than double what it is here.

I was exaggerating some but not much. At current exchange rate, $44 Canadian is about $47 US so yep still almost double!!

[Juggy]

Cory, that is from a 86-87 maybe 88 TD 2.5. Made for balance shaft pan.
Todd

ok cool thanks Todd, i knew it was stock just unsure from where.


Are you telling me a case of beer cost $50 in Canada! If so that is more than double what it is here.

yep beer is rediculous here. also we cant just go to a corner store to buy beer/alcohol. everything is government controlled....there is "the beeer store" and then "LCBO" licquor control board....

got a chance to tear into the head 2day! got 1 intake gasket matched. just have to do the other 3 roofs and then i can work the port itself....followed by minor bowl work.

[Juggy]

ok heres a couple pics of the first roughed out port that i had time to do the roof....

i still need to straighten out the knife edge when finishing. im going to take it down a little shorter too, since it pretty much starts at the flange. I would have left them like that and finished em off but unfortunately my burr accidently rolled over one or 2 of them edges so i cant make the knife edge so big.....

I was planning to get some more time on it 2day but it will have too wait until another day.....after i get into the full length of the port up too the valve guide, i will then do some minor bowl work.

so yeah. on the intake. all the bowls line up nice too the seats. except for 1 cylinder that seemed to have some core shift. there is a lip at the valve seat now. im afraid to touch the seat in case i hit the valve job....should i just put some epoxy in there too smooth it out??? honestly this head NEEDS BIGGER VALVES....all that air with tiny valves....a +2/+3 combo would be really nice i think.....

[ShelGame]

yep its going into my 87 charger. best of 12.0@115mph with 20 psi boost and 40 psi static fuel pressure lots of knock disconnect the knock sensor :lol:

heres a couple pics of the oil pan and pick up given too me...not sure what it came out of?? but i was thinking of using it...


Looks like a modified tall deck oil pan and pickup. TD pan is the same as a CB pan, except it has no sound deadening panels...

EDIT: oops, late to the party... again...

[turbovanman²]

so yeah. on the intake. all the bowls line up nice too the seats. except for 1 cylinder that seemed to have some core shift. there is a lip at the valve seat now. im afraid to touch the seat in case i hit the valve job....should i just put some epoxy in there too smooth it out??? honestly this head NEEDS BIGGER VALVES....all that air with tiny valves....a +2/+3 combo would be really nice i think.....

They don't need bigger valves, the port can't flow enough air for the stock valve. My head flows 280 at .600 on the intake and 240 on the exhaust at .600.

[Juggy]

They don't need bigger valves, the port can't flow enough air for the stock valve. My head flows 280 at .600 on the intake and 240 on the exhaust at .600.

do you have the lower lift flow #s???

600 seems like alot of lift??? how much lift does your cam have??

[GLHNSLHT2]

yea, what's a T3 lift? like 300something?

[bakes]

Simon not running stock cams!!!

[86seeS]

Subscribed!

[turbovanman²]

do you have the lower lift flow #s???

600 seems like alot of lift??? how much lift does your cam have??

I have a stock head and mine at work, just been too busy to post up, I'll try and do it tomorrow.

I am running the stage II's, something like .550-.600 at the valve.


yea, what's a T3 lift? like 300something?

I believe its .315 then add the rocker arm but I could be wrong.

[Juggy]

I have a stock head and mine at work, just been too busy to post up, I'll try and do it tomorrow.

I am running the stage II's, something like .550-.600 at the valve.

I believe its .315 then add the rocker arm but I could be wrong.


I thought these heads flow 230cfm already....at stock lift???? or no more then .350"??? I would think an unported head would def pick up some more CFM at .600 lift??
id really love too see the b4 and after #s of your head. bakes told me that you had raised the floor......too me that doesnt sound like a good thing to do on the TIII. sure it may add velocity thus increase flow, but now you could be short on volume.....theres no real room to remove meat off the roof. so now you just made the port smaller, which will most likely lower your powerband.

i am going to assume that your head porting guy does lots of work on motorcycle heads, as raising the floor is one of their techniques (heck your a motorcycle guy too arent ya simon???) as they say that most ports are already too large for the small displacement engines, so they raise floor. increase velocity, more low end grunt to help pull em out of a turn during road racing....basically maximizing their powerband rather then a "factory" port that is most likely designed for higher rpm then the engine can actually handle....


we have 2 vendors that supply TIII cams....but neither one of them lists their specs....how nice.
.550-.6 seems like TONS of lift for a 16 valve....considering SRT crower cams only have like .450" max lift on the RACE cam??

[Turbo3Iroc]

Subscribed

[turbovanman²]

I thought these heads flow 230cfm already....at stock lift???? or no more then .350"??? I would think an unported head would def pick up some more CFM at .600 lift??
id really love too see the b4 and after #s of your head. bakes told me that you had raised the floor......too me that doesnt sound like a good thing to do on the TIII. sure it may add velocity thus increase flow, but now you could be short on volume.....theres no real room to remove meat off the roof. so now you just made the port smaller, which will most likely lower your powerband.

i am going to assume that your head porting guy does lots of work on motorcycle heads, as raising the floor is one of their techniques (heck your a motorcycle guy too arent ya simon???) as they say that most ports are already too large for the small displacement engines, so they raise floor. increase velocity, more low end grunt to help pull em out of a turn during road racing....basically maximizing their powerband rather then a "factory" port that is most likely designed for higher rpm then the engine can actually handle....


we have 2 vendors that supply TIII cams....but neither one of them lists their specs....how nice.
.550-.6 seems like TONS of lift for a 16 valve....considering SRT crower cams only have like .450" max lift on the RACE cam??

He doesn't touch the floors per say, no need to on the TIII head.

Yes, he used to do bikes, back in the day before Yoshimura and the boys showed up.

I have the specs for my cams, and the flow at .600 was a benefit, he didn't do it on purpose. My cams aka Cindy's Stage II triflows are .385-396, vs stock at .330, stock duration is 221 deg, mine are 266 on the primary and 262 on the secondary.

I'll post the flow numbers in the my vendor thread.

There is a calcuation etc for throat/port size vs the valve size, he got mine to 1.2" which is smaller than the math says, just simply no more meat to grind out, so he's close to maximum port size while maintaining velocity and yea, your right, some bike ports are too large which is great for high rpm power but your midrange suffers, which for a race bike, is important.

[Juggy]

hhmmmmmm happen to know the stage 3 #s????

id be looking for something a lil more aggressive then what you just mentioned (when the time comes.....)

yeah I wasnt planning to hog the heck outta this thing. just hone theports. and minor bowl work. its too thin for my likings in that cross section!!!

[turbovanman²]

hhmmmmmm happen to know the stage 3 #s????

id be looking for something a lil more aggressive then what you just mentioned (when the time comes.....)

yeah I wasnt planning to hog the heck outta this thing. just hone theports. and minor bowl work. its too thin for my likings in that cross section!!!

There are no off the shelf Stage III's, they would be a custom job, to your specs or the grinders.

These cams with the head, header I've got, should make for some stupid power this year, :nod:

[Juggy]

ok got about 5-6 solid hours of work on the intake ports 2day.
we are at semi-finish now. Still need to get final port size. as well as match all knife edge depths. they are much straighter then they were yesterday...

lmk what you think of my hack job....

[shelbymonster]

nice work !!

[turbovanman²]

Looks a bit narrow at the valve end but otherwise, great, :nod:

[Juggy]

Looks a bit narrow at the valve end but otherwise, great, :nod:

yeah u can still see casting lines. I broke my honing tool. need to get it replaced!!!
port is approx 1.1" throughout most of the way, but tapers down at the valve. i still havent done any bowl work. i have about 10 hours into the intake ports so far....im expecting 40-50 hours, more like 50-60 tho....

im trying to remove most of the meat in between the valves. i figured its completely solid there, that way i will risk less chance of breaking through into water.....

[turbovanman²]

Go look at my cut casting for help with how much you can remove.

[2.216VTurbo]

Looking good Jug but you stopped too short, are you using a 2" Carbide bit? You may want to consider sinking $35. into a 6" flame point non-ferrous carbide bit then cutting 2" off of it. At 6" they are too hard to control IMO but you have to make the ports WIDER below the bowl. You cant hit that area (one side you can some)from the seat side. I made my own scroll mandrels from 6.0mm Ti spinal rods. I had same extras laying around;) I posted pics of my TIII ported head for the Rampage RT a few years ago, if you can search the galleries and find them you'll see how I kept the port cross section almost constant all the way to the bowl. Snap bore gauges are your friend:thumb:

[Juggy]

got some time spent yesterday on the head. the intake ports are now approx 75% done. they just need to brought down to final port size. the gasket matching and entry is done for the most part. I feel I did a really great job. lets hope the rest of the porting goes this well and looks just as good.

these are all pics without the flash on

[bakes]

Nice work Juggy

[2.216VTurbo]

We talked via PM about port width and snap gauges etc IMO, those ports would be improved if they were WIDER under the bowls, I still see casting lines which meas you took some, but not enough. I like to make them scary wide there, I've ported only 2 TIII heads now but not cut thru on either of them.

[Juggy]

sweet, thanks for the pics alan!!! nice work on that head!! yep i still need to get the port size bigger. I sort of noticed they are kid of ovaled from the factory. so planning to remove most of the meat beween the ports, rather then risk breaking into water on the outside. was using a 3 stone 220grit brake hone to do them ports, but the stones are wearing pretty fast and i accident bent the crap outta the thing so that doesnt help either! lol

have you ran this head yet??? just curious how the shortened stems worked out for you?? i was thinking about whiping them out too like you did. the car wont be seeing many miles over the next couple years, just mainly some track time (if im lucky....). im sure it will reduce valve guide life some. I figured there wasnt much sticking out, so couldnt be too much harm done taking them down to the port :)

got pics of the finished exhaust? or is #7 it?? I wanted to try and oval that out too as best as possibly. i already hogged the crap outta my exhaust manny so was hoping to get the head to 1/16" to the gasket all around. eliminate them humps

[2.216VTurbo]

I'm gonna say this again Jugg STOP MESSING WITH STONES AND GET A 6" NON-FERROUS CARBIDE FLAME POINT CUTTER! I cringe to think how many hours you've had to sit there with stone cutters. Do they have Ebay in Canada:p? Don't forget the long mandrel and abrasive 'cartridge rolls' for finishing,,,

[Juggy]

loL!!! ok i had to google flame point, i never heard anyone use that term b4....

ive been using a standard straight ball nose. i think its 1/2" diameter. i dont really need a crazy length burr because my die grinder has a 6" shank. im thinking the flame one would be better tho....ill have too ask one of my friends in the trade still too grab me one from work. Ive wanted a bigger burr anyways lol

[turbovanman²]

Honestly, leave the guides along, for the tiny amount of flow you get, its not worth the extra wear and at $10 each, they add up fast when they wear.
Other than that, looks great, :nod:

[x.Gen]

digging on the porting pics, that has to be one of the first pics of anyone on TM using a bore gauge (let alone for porting)...gotta say I'd be pretty nervous about porting a TIII head, myself, I would almost rather take too much time than too much material. leads me to the question if anyone has ever done a TIII extrude-honed? can't remember if that is the exact terminology, haven't read about it in probably 10 years plus. would be very curious to see flowbench #'s apples to oranges, if anyone ever did.

[turbovanman²]

You'd have to extrude hone it quite a few times to get it anywhere near actual hand porting.

[x.Gen]

no doubt, but my question is more about flow characteristics...moot point if no one has done it. anyhow, looks good Cory. you keeping stock cams on it?

[Juggy]

yeap stock cams until i can afford to get some stage 2 or 3's!

[turbovanman²]

No stage 3's, we've been down that road, :p

[GLHNSLHT2]

how much are cams?

[Juggy]

No stage 3's, we've been down that road, :p

ya ya lol....ok. stage 2 or CUSTOM grind!


how much are cams?

through FWD-P they are $399 + core ($350)....

[GLHNSLHT2]

pretty good deal. Bigger cams for me are $1200 starting price and go as high as $2,250.

[CNH320]

go as high as $2,250.
:wow1:

[Kreel]

pretty good deal. Bigger cams for me are $1200 starting price and go as high as $2,250.

Yikes! What makes them so pricey? I've seen new billet cams considerably cheaper then that.

[GLHNSLHT2]

The 2250 are for new billets. the 1200 is for having the lobes welded up and then reground. They're hollow, they're rare and I don't know what else.

[Juggy]

ok, intake ports are prettty much done. so I wont bother posting any more pics of them. they arent going to change much other then final size. got my 1.1" sander down to the valve, so im almost there..

as for the bowls, they were reshaped and made deeper to help air drop down on the valve. just need a little/smoothing around the guide....

[Juggy]

well the ports are almost done. intake side just needs some bowl blending in the guide area on the long turn. get final finish, then match all port sizes.
exhaust side is done, just needs to checked for sizing. i misplaced my telescoping guage so until I find it I cant take any measurements :(

upon working the head. I had noticed the valve job wasnt as smooth on the exhaust side as it was the intake. the head supposively had all new guides and valve job. I called my friend and questioned the head but he didnt seem to remember much as it was done over 6 years ago. im thinking the intake guides were done with a new valve job, and the exhaust was left alone. theres no way guides could have been swapped out without bothering to do a valve job! i then asked why he didnt have the valve job done on the exhaust he said its the only the intake that matters?? lol....
anyway what i am getting at, is that the head has 3 cracked exhaust guides :mad: I suppose this is why I had a couple wet exhaust valves. looks like i wont even be able to use this bad boy until i get afford to get all the exhaust guides replaced, along with a 5 angle valve job. that exhaust seat def has some room for a bigger valve, I think i might as well get myself some intake valves cut down :eyebrows: might as well do it right the first time. def room for +1. possibly +2

heres the intake......(heavy port and bowl work, w/knife edge divider)
308773087430878

and exhaust...(completely polished, light bowl work, opened up choke, gasket matched retaining original port shape)
30875308763087930880

[GLHNSLHT2]

juggy does your camera have a flower setting? For taking up close pics? They look good small but as soon as you blow them up they're a bit blurry.

[Reaper1]

Nice work! :thumb:

[Juggy]

juggy does your camera have a flower setting? For taking up close pics? They look good small but as soon as you blow them up they're a bit blurry.

crap, yeah ill get some pics with the macro on. they arent too bad tho?!?!? get your eyes checked ol man!!!
intake ports are currently 1.230" wide and 1.170" tall at the valve guide......the oval port should help promote velocity at high rpm, but might suffer on the low end...oh well!!!

[turbovanman²]

Price of valve guides, ack, that's why my porter is making me some, :p

I honestly wouldn't cut the valve guide down, I know you said its only a race car but regardless, you won't even notice the cfm and the cost of guides if you kill a few, its not worth it.

Looking good though, :nod:

[2.216VTurbo]

Nice work Juggy:clap: That is some smooooth finish in the exhaust ports, that's never a bad thing on the hot gas side. What did you finish those with? Somewhere in the dusty old library section of my garage there is an book on head porting. I specifically remember one section talking about removing the guides and flowing without them in place and there was an 11% improvement in flow. For a low annual miles car, I'll risk guide longevity for 11% flow any day Simon...

[turbovanman²]

For a low annual miles car, I'll risk guide longevity for 11% flow any day Simon...

At $9 a piece plus shipping, I'll take the slight flow loss. I also find it hard to believe they cost 11% flow. Maybe Steve can chime in?

Also, you have money, we don't, so you can afford to keep redoing it.

[2.216VTurbo]

At $9 a piece plus shipping, I'll take the slight flow loss. I also find it hard to believe they cost 11% flow. Maybe Steve can chime in?

Also, you have money, we don't, so you can afford to keep redoing it.

Ha, I made my own sintered bronze guides for years Simon you Dumba$$ I only paid a few bucks for a 6' stick of the stuff. With a simple drill press and a .312 reamer I made 4 sets of them:p I've worked 2 jobs or more at a time since 1982, so get over yourself Simon, I've come from growing up poor, 3 siblings hungry more often filled up and now I've made something of myself and a priveleged life for my kids. Fat guys are supposed to be jolly Bro, I feel your resent twards me in 90% of the posts where you mention me. That other 10% of yours has great entertainment value for me:lol: Keep that stuff up:)


EDIT: Had a great night of burgers & Mac & Cheese on my patio with my kids and two friends who live down the street that never seem like they get enough to eat. Yes, I sent them back home with all the leftovers. Good thing I had $60. to drop when we the 5 of us picked out all the dinner fixings. You make me feel so guilty for stuff like that.:rolleyes: Also because a really good bottle Merlot went with the burgers, I misplaced the decimal point in your entertainment value posts above, shoulda read 1.0%

[turbovanman²]

Ha, I made my own sintered bronze guides for years Simon you Dumba$$ I only paid a few bucks for a 6' stick of the stuff. With a simple drill press and a .312 reamer I made 4 sets of them:p I've worked 2 jobs or more at a time since 1982, so get over yourself Simon, I've come from growing up poor, 3 siblings hungry more often filled up and now I've made something of myself and a priveleged life for my kids. Fat guys are supposed to be jolly Bro, I feel your resent twards me in 90% of the posts where you mention me. That other 10% of yours has great entertainment value for me:lol: Keep that stuff up:)


EDIT: Had a great night of burgers & Mac & Cheese on my patio with my kids and two friends who live down the street that never seem like they get enough to eat. Yes, I sent them back home with all the leftovers. Good thing I had $60. to drop when we the 5 of us picked out all the dinner fixings. You make me feel so guilty for stuff like that.:rolleyes: Also because a really good bottle Merlot went with the burgers, I misplaced the decimal point in your entertainment value posts above, shoulda read 1.0%


I honestly don't CARE how you grew up, that has nothing to with NOW, does it? Dufus. :confused: You have the money NOW to buy new valve guides, get it!!! I'll get the violin's out and we can both compare our lives, ok! Wow, the chip you carry, it must hurt, :rolleyes: You flaunt your wealth around this site like no ones business yet when someone mention's you an afford something, you go off? :confused:

As for feeling guilty, if you do, then only you only have yourself to blame, right?

FYI, sintered bronze isn't a good valve guide material.

[rx2mazda]

Both of you STFU and get a room!

[Juggy]

Both of you STFU and get a room!

LOL!!! now now boys, relax!!!!
well just had a professional examine the head and he seemed to be very impressed with the work so far. he knew I had put forth some major effort when he was curious as to how many hours i had into the head! theres about 50-60 hours total lol

said it looks real nice, and was totally digging the work on the exhaust side. I plan to get the head flow after its finished. he uses a superbench SF-110/120

[turbovanman²]

LOL!!! now now boys, relax!!!!
well just had a professional examine the head and he seemed to be very impressed with the work so far. he knew I had put forth some major effort when he was curious as to how many hours i had into the head! theres about 50-60 hours total lol

said it looks real nice, and was totally digging the work on the exhaust side. I plan to get the head flow after its finished. he uses a superbench SF-110/120

I don't have that kind of time, lol, cheaper for me to pay someone, ack!

[2.216VTurbo]

Simon, you're still a d i c k:amen: Not jolly for sure... How about you come to SDAC this year and I will use my "wealth" to buy you all the beer you can drink over a four day period?:partywoot: We'll either be buds after or you can vent your frustrations of the poor life choices you've made that make you act like such a toolbag. I'm ready for either:whip: If it's finaces holding you back this year, I'll be happy to help with that, PM me and we can talk about it further.


And now back to an excellent TIII thread...

[Ondonti]

As long as your are careful some inside calipers is plenty good enough. Never got to finish the TIII head i was porting but I actually did pre port flowbenching in anticipation of comparison numbers.

If Stock guides are good for more miles then the engine could ever last, then an engine that might never see 10,000 miles might have some leeway that makes for a good tradeoff. Worst that could happen is you have to spend a little 5 years from now but the motor will probably pop well before that :eyebrows:

That said, I have seen a TIII that had terrible guides and it couldn't have had that many miles. Could wiggle the valve back and forth something fierce.

[moparman76_69]

I honestly don't CARE how you grew up, that has nothing to with NOW, does it? Dufus. :confused: You have the money NOW to buy new valve guides, get it!!! I'll get the violin's out and we can both compare our lives, ok! Wow, the chip you carry, it must hurt, :rolleyes: You flaunt your wealth around this site like no ones business yet when someone mention's you an afford something, you go off? :confused:

As for feeling guilty, if you do, then only you only have yourself to blame, right?

FYI, sintered bronze isn't a good valve guide material.

Bitter?

[Directconnection]

The 2250 are for new billets. the 1200 is for having the lobes welded up and then reground. They're hollow, they're rare and I don't know what else.

If you have them reground on a smaller base circle, you can't re-shim the buckets/pucks accordingly?

If you don't mind waiting quite a while, I can set you up with the cam grinders I used...

[Juggy]

alan, id take you up on the offer if someone doesnt!! :lol:

brent, this head has 77k miles on it. fairly low mileage. but the intake guides were whipped, and apparently the exhaust guides are on their way out if i happen to have found 3 cracked ones.......

havent had a chance to finish the head off. 1 more port to hog out to size, then i can hone for final finish! yes alan the previous honing was a waste of time and money. consideing i wasted about 10-15bucks in stones, and then i ended up using the single cut hogger carbide (should have been using it all along instead of my double cut ball nose!!!!)

oh well live and learn.

[GLHNSLHT2]

If you have them reground on a smaller base circle, you can't re-shim the buckets/pucks accordingly?

If you don't mind waiting quite a while, I can set you up with the cam grinders I used...

I can't re-shim my "race" head as they use a different lighter bucket that aren't shimmable for higher rpm capabilities. My "stock" head will probably keep the stock buckets.

[Directconnection]

I can't re-shim my "race" head as they use a different lighter bucket that aren't shimmable for higher rpm capabilities. My "stock" head will probably keep the stock buckets.

Why is it they can't be shimmed? No possible way around that situation?

[Ondonti]

Why do they wipe out the guides so soon?

[Directconnection]

Why do they wipe out the guides so soon?

Long azz valves? Doesn't help that the rocker really scrubs across the valve stem through it's lift points...

The one I am doing had 120,000 and the exhaust guides were pretty bad.... but the intakes were still good. Thanx to FWD to stock these, as I found a replacement for them, but you must purchase a minimum of $600 worth from them. I could have easily made my own, but it's much easier to just buy them at $10 each.

---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------

Alan: thining down the guides does make sense, but in ONE test Curt at my shop did years ago, it LOST flow when they hacked the guide down to nothing. Just like porting.... it all comes down to many determining factors of what is good, and what isn't. In this case, I have to take Simon's side as I'm azz kissing him since *HE HASN'T SHIPPED MY PARTS GOING ON FOR 4 MONTHS NOW* :love: as I too wouldn't want to jeopardize the valve's "support" either.

[bakes]

Would teflon valve stem cap or telflon coated to rocker arm valve contact point help the scrubing effect?

[Directconnection]

The lash cap nicely pivots as is, but it may put a bit of a side load on the valve tip in my opinion. But.... I absolutely don't consider this a shortcoming of the T-III even if they're common to losing guides after 70,000 miles, which I'm not totally sold they are prone to be (but obviously more of an issue than the 8v counterparts)

[GLHNSLHT2]

Why is it they can't be shimmed? No possible way around that situation?


Because there is no place to put a shim. The clearance to the cam is set via machining of the valve tips. I guess you might be able to put a lash cap on them if they were thin enough and you re-machined the valve tips but I don't know if that's worth it or the way to go.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------


The lash cap nicely pivots as is, but it may put a bit of a side load on the valve tip in my opinion. But.... I absolutely don't consider this a shortcoming of the T-III even if they're common to losing guides after 70,000 miles, which I'm not totally sold they are prone to be (but obviously more of an issue than the 8v counterparts)


Oh nice, another issue with the T3 arrises. I don't get how you guys would want to run this head.

[2.216VTurbo]

If you have them reground on a smaller base circle, you can't re-shim the buckets/pucks accordingly?

If you don't mind waiting quite a while, I can set you up with the cam grinders I used...

Buckets?? Are we talking TIII or Masi here;)?

---------- Post added at 02:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 AM ----------


If you have them reground on a smaller base circle, you can't re-shim the buckets/pucks accordingly?

If you don't mind waiting quite a while, I can set you up with the cam grinders I used...

Base cirlcle is already pretty small, on a Ford 2.3 yo can pick up .085 by whacking the base circle to nothing; I'd be suprised if there were .030 on a TIII:o

---------- Post added at 02:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------


alan, id take you up on the offer if someone doesnt!! :lol:

brent, this head has 77k miles on it. fairly low mileage. but the intake guides were whipped, and apparently the exhaust guides are on their way out if i happen to have found 3 cracked ones.......

havent had a chance to finish the head off. 1 more port to hog out to size, then i can hone for final finish! yes alan the previous honing was a waste of time and money. consideing i wasted about 10-15bucks in stones, and then i ended up using the single cut hogger carbide (should have been using it all along instead of my double cut ball nose!!!!)

oh well live and learn.

Carbide burrs FTW! Never lookk at a stone bit again

[Directconnection]

Oh nice, another issue with the T3 arrises. I don't get how you guys would want to run this head.

Nobody has yet chimed in saying all T-III motors eat guides.... I'm just stating that one of mine with 125k had bad exhaust guides... coincidence or not, who knows...

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------


Buckets?? Are we talking TIII or Masi here;)?


Base cirlcle is already pretty small, on a Ford 2.3 yo can pick up .085 by whacking the base circle to nothing; I'd be suprised if there were .030 on a TIII

We are hijacking Juggy's thread with the king of NS1: Masi talk.

As for the base circle issue, it looks like there's a ton of material left on the base circle to go crazy on.... but it's probably more of an issue with rocker arm geometry going so low.... I've seen literally a non-existant base circle on a BB Chevy roller at work... it's crazy. The base circle is the same diameter as the forging which is very small. (way smaller than the bearing journals)

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'm kinda sad to see Juggy porting his head as I was hoping to see a stock head 2.5 Masi vs. T3 shootout :(

[iTurbo]

I've had machine shops rebuild 4-5 TIII heads for me and I think most of them needed new exhaust guides but the intake guides were OK. I simply replace all of them with the guides FWDP sells.

Oh and Jay, I'm building a stock headed 2.5L TIII for my SL which is part of the assembly line I got going on in my spare bedroom. Still not quite ready to post my own project log though.

[Juggy]

I'm kinda sad to see Juggy porting his head as I was hoping to see a stock head 2.5 Masi vs. T3 shootout :(

I got another head on the way already paid for. just need to ship the TU radiator out to complete the deal!!! def not going to town on the second head as I did this one, it will only receive some gasket matching and clean up. the way things are looking, ill be running the spare head b4 I can run the fully ported one.....hopefully the guides are all good in this other head. otherwise im really SOL....

iTurbo - I have no idea why he replaced the intakes and not the exhaust??? kept telling me the intake is where u want the flow and have the nice valve job, and exhaust means squat....this is coming from a guy who likes to talk mad smack as he apparently does everything the RIGHT way and doesnt skip corners.....so far ive learned he doesnt know as much as his mouth runs, and his "mexican" engineering seems to be no greater then work coming out of a sweat shop :lol:

im pretty upset because i was told it had ALL NEW GUIDES and ALL VALVE JOBBED....no he dont know what was changed. kept telling me he did the exhaust guides so there was no way there were bad. so i asked why it still had the stock valve job with new guides? I cant remember was his answer....

I then asked whats next?!?! i pull apart the rod and main caps to find out the block is trashed???
his EXACT FOOCKING WORDS WERE: well i told you to check them.........


if this motor is FUBAR'd im going to looose it.

[Reaper1]

Why would the block be trash?

[turbovanman²]

Simon, you're still a d i c k:amen: Not jolly for sure... How about you come to SDAC this year and I will use my "wealth" to buy you all the beer you can drink over a four day period?:partywoot: We'll either be buds after or you can vent your frustrations of the poor life choices you've made that make you act like such a toolbag. I'm ready for either:whip: If it's finaces holding you back this year, I'll be happy to help with that, PM me and we can talk about it further.


And now back to an excellent TIII thread...

Hmmm, you go off on a tear and I am the douchebag? You throw your wealth around this forum and someone mentions you can afford to fix your head and you go off? Hmmmmmmmm, maybe meds are in your future. No thanks on the beer, I'll buy my own thanks, I'd have to kill myself listening to your stories on your OLD poor life, :(

What bad money choices? I am doing just fine thank you and I am very happy, I have a great wife, 2 awesome kids, a new dog, cat, house and just enough money to get by, but thanks for asking though.


Bitter?

:confused: I am not the one complaining about being poor when I grew up, explain?

[bakes]

HEY stop it and get this tread back on track!!!!!!!!

[Ondonti]

At least you didn't get a ported head with no port job.

[Directconnection]

At least you didn't get a ported head with no port job.

Hey man.... *I* got a completely "rebuilt" T-III motor that was "rebuilt" but with rather *POOR* work, tolerances, and assembly including some items that were destined to fail shortly after start-up.

But I ain't sour.... as I'm using this experience as a steep learning curve on T-III engine building. (plus, I sold off a lot from the car allowing me to recoup 75% of the price I paid for everything)

Hey Juggy, one big reason why I started my log is to expose some issues I'll be encountering down the road, which may lead to some help from others (and maybe a bit of gloating... hehehe)

Even if your head and motor turns into azz... you have the collective minds on TM here to help you.

[Juggy]

thanks steve. yeah i already subscribed to your thread!!! gotta love all the little things these damn motors encounter for issues.....and gotta love jay the "mazi nazi" whos here to rip on us for running these damn "crappy" lotus heads :lol:

just trying to get soem motivation to finish this damn head off. I heard the ps3 network is back up and running so maybe ill just play some GT5 and calm my nerves!!!

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------


Hmmm, you go off on a tear and I am the douchebag? You throw your wealth around this forum and someone mentions you can afford to fix your head and you go off? Hmmmmmmmm, maybe meds are in your future. No thanks on the beer, I'll buy my own thanks, I'd have to kill myself listening to your stories on your OLD poor life, :(

What bad money choices? I am doing just fine thank you and I am very happy, I have a great wife, 2 awesome kids, a new dog, cat, house and just enough money to get by, but thanks for asking though.



:confused: I am not the one complaining about being poor when I grew up, explain?

Simon, Alan is an awesome guy. Ive had the pleasure of meeting him at 2 or 3 of the sdacs i have been too! hes got some great stores to tell, and is a very generous man; and its hard not to fall in love with his parking lot antics with rental vehicles hehehehe

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------


At least you didn't get a ported head with no port job.

someone get short changed on a ported head???

[Directconnection]

Hahaha... it's official: "Mazi Nazi"

[2.216VTurbo]

Hahaha... it's official: "Mazi Nazi"
Seeing as that I have 2 TIII cars, I *KNOW* I'm not one of those guys:amen:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I think I need to change my Xbox Gamertag to that :)

[Juggy]

Hahaha... it's official: "Mazi Nazi"
:lol:


Seeing as that I have 2 TIII cars, I *KNOW* I'm not one of those guys:amen:
judging from that list of cars in your signature.....hail hitler :hail:


I think I need to change my Xbox Gamertag to that :)
yes I was sitting here writing that and it came right to mind. i think its very fitting :eyebrows:

[GLHNSLHT2]

Sorry Jugz, Can't call me the Mazi Nazi anymore. Just put a deposit down on a non-Masi 16v motor.

[Juggy]

Sorry Jugz, Can't call me the Mazi Nazi anymore. Just put a deposit down on a non-Masi 16v motor.

lol! im gonna say its def not a TIII.............find yourself a 2.4?

[Reaper1]

Probably a Caliber SRT-4!! *PUKE*

[GLHNSLHT2]

You're right jugz, I wouldn't touch one of those with a 10ft poll. Found a nice fairly low mileage 2.4/Autostick setup.

[Juggy]

You're right jugz, I wouldn't touch one of those with a 10ft poll. Found a nice fairly low mileage 2.4/Autostick setup.

what if it was my pole and reaper was pushin :lol:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I don't want to know what you and reaper do with your poles :)

[Reaper1]

My pole is Masi powered! LOL ;D