Gear Controlled Boost

[Aries_Turbo]

if you are good with microswitches, you can make a gear based boost controller with all old school DIY stuff that we've been using for years.

or you can use a frequency to voltage converter to take the signal from the speed sensor and convert it to a voltage signal, and then use 4 op amps set up as comparators (voltage based switch) to determine what gear you are in.

Brian

[bakes]

You can use a Cal with a ATX templete and and set the allowed boost for automatics from speed.
Just know each shift point from speed and reset the slope.

edit : i forgot you not running factory ECM

[cordes]

You can use a Cal with a ATX templete and and set the allowed boost for automatics from speed.
Just know each shift point from speed and reset the slope.

edit : i forgot you not running factory ECM

That's all out the window when you lose traction though. With enough tuning it can be viable, but it's still not ideal.

[Reaper1]

Have you looked into these yet?

Yeah. Good electronic ones are EXPENSIVE! Some stand alone ECU's can do it too, but same $$$$ issue.


if you are good with microswitches, you can make a gear based boost controller with all old school DIY stuff that we've been using for years.

or you can use a frequency to voltage converter to take the signal from the speed sensor and convert it to a voltage signal, and then use 4 op amps set up as comparators (voltage based switch) to determine what gear you are in.

Brian

Brian, that's exactly what I did. I designed a 3-stage boost controller that is gear based. The driver can also select manually to be in high boost all the time (such as if you are doing a burn out, just want to show off, or need that "go baby go") or low boost all the time (like an economy or valet mode). If something electrical goes wrong it defaults to low boost. High boost is only activated via a WOT switch or if manually selected, otherwise the maximum boost target at part throttle is the middle boost setting. It only uses two pnuematic solenoid valves (like the ones supplied with the AMS-500). High boost is based on the maximum that the wastegate can hold (like on Gus's ultilmate boost controller). Middle and low boost are adjutable via g-valves.

Of course this set-up can only work if the way that maximum boost is achieved is like the stock set-up. I'd have to revise the vacuum schematic in order to do it a different way.

I've only implemented a part of this design thus far. Part of the reason I never went farther is because I want an adjustable electronic solid state WOT switch. I know there are some out there, but I kind of want to design and built it myself. The other reasons are money, and not knowing exactly what switches I'm going to use, where I'm going to use them, or how I'm going to mount them.

One day I'll get it all sorted out! :thumb:

[Aries_Turbo]

Part of the reason I never went farther is because I want an adjustable electronic solid state WOT switch.

you mean like the one i designed and posted up in this thread?

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?1193-A-modification-I-might-regret.&highlight=

Brian

[Reeves]

if you are good with microswitches, you can make a gear based boost controller with all old school DIY stuff that we've been using for years.

or you can use a frequency to voltage converter to take the signal from the speed sensor and convert it to a voltage signal, and then use 4 op amps set up as comparators (voltage based switch) to determine what gear you are in.

Brian

Only problem with that is that it doesn't work with slip (tire spin). Now, if we take the rpm / mph that will tell us what gear we are in. Then we can have 4 separate outputs (1 2 3 4 gears) to control boost. Hmm...or can we use 2 solenoids to control 4 stages of boost. Need to sketch that out. "00" 1st gear low boost (would also work as fail safe). "01" solenoid 1 on 2nd gear boost set. "10" solenoid 2 on 3rd gear boost set. "11" both solenoids on 4th and 5th gear boost.
Oh yeah.....


That's all out the window when you lose traction though. With enough tuning it can be viable, but it's still not ideal.

Which is why Warren and I were thinking of making a rear wheel speed sensor. I have some proximity switches I was going to use as hall effect switches with a shutter wheel mounted on the rear hub/rotor.


Yeah. Good electronic ones are EXPENSIVE! Some stand alone ECU's can do it too, but same $$$$ issue.

No joke!

[Aries_Turbo]

Only problem with that is that it doesn't work with slip (tire spin). Now, if we take the rpm / mph that will tell us what gear we are in. Then we can have 4 separate outputs (1 2 3 4 gears) to control boost. Hmm...or can we use 2 solenoids to control 4 stages of boost. Need to sketch that out. "00" 1st gear low boost (would also work as fail safe). "01" solenoid 1 on 2nd gear boost set. "10" solenoid 2 on 3rd gear boost set. "11" both solenoids on 4th and 5th gear boost.
Oh yeah.....



Which is why Warren and I were thinking of making a rear wheel speed sensor. I have some proximity switches I was going to use as hall effect switches with a shutter wheel mounted on the rear hub/rotor.

microswitches on the shifter will work just fine regardless of wheelspin. it will tell you what gear you are in.

yeah i was thinking about using a rear wheel speed sensor. problem is with using RPM and speed to determine gear, most folks wont be able to do the programming required to do the gear determination. microswitches on the trans, anyone can do.

Brian

[Reeves]

This is the beginning of a thread to discuss gear controlled boost. A few of us started to discuss this in Carroll Roberts GLH-R/T thread and dirtied it up. I'm hoping mods can move those posts here to discuss.

[1966 dart wagon]

very intrested in this!

[Reaper1]

I brought my design with me for my gear based boost controller from storage. I'll try to get them digitized and maybe post them. I need to try and build Brian's electronic solid state WOT switch.

[BadAssPerformance]

This is the beginning of a thread to discuss gear controlled boost. A few of us started to discuss this in Carroll Roberts GLH-R/T thread and dirtied it up. I'm hoping mods can move those posts here to discuss.

I must have missed that part, havn't been on much. gimmie the post numbers and I'll move them :thumb:

[Reeves]

I must have missed that part, havn't been on much. gimmie the post numbers and I'll move them :thumb:

Looks like you already moved most of them :thumb:

Here's what's left as of right now:
Post numbers 798, 799, 803, 813

[Aries_Turbo]

i moved most of them.

Brian

[Reeves]

microswitches on the shifter will work just fine regardless of wheelspin. it will tell you what gear you are in.

yeah i was thinking about using a rear wheel speed sensor. problem is with using RPM and speed to determine gear, most folks wont be able to do the programming required to do the gear determination. microswitches on the trans, anyone can do.

Brian

Prox on the rear wheel to do speed and then you can use speed controlled boost via LM or SMEC.

The other thing I started last season and gathered parts for and never finished was a prox to see the shifter in 1st gear. Then an adjustable time off delay relay so that boost doesn't immediately go high after shifting out of first. First gear, prox is on, low boost solenoid is on. Bang 2nd gear, the relay is still latched for X amount of time, before switching to high boost mode.

I think it would be pretty difficult to setup a shifter with 4 switches.....but I might just try to tackle it if we never come up with a good electronic way to do it. I probably would use mini Turck prox's though.....just don't like mechanical wear items like micro-switches and mechanical relays all that much. Not saying I wouldn't use them, but prefer prox's and solid state relays.


Apexi is the only boost controller I know of that takes RPM and MPH and 'learns' your gears, then does gear controlled boost the most proper way.

Rob and I were working on gear controlled boost via logic module (which is what I run), but there is no divide function in LM code.

[Vigo]

Which is why Warren and I were thinking of making a rear wheel speed sensor. I have some proximity switches I was going to use as hall effect switches with a shutter wheel mounted on the rear hub/rotor.

Didnt some spirit r/ts come with ABS?

I know for a fact the ac/ay bodies (dynasty, new yorker, imperial 89-93) could be had with abs, and they had the non-vented 10.5" rear disc setup.

So, if you happen to use the 10.5 rear discs already you should be able to snag something off one of the ABS ac/ay cars that will give you a rear wheel speed sensor.

[Aries_Turbo]

is it a hall effect or a VR sensor for the ABS stuff? hall effect, no problem. VR, gotta put together a conditioning circuit to make it nice square pulses.

as for prox sensors or microswitches, they can be installed on the trans end of things. thats where you get the most consistent and drastic movement.

you could even use security door switches for the shifter ranges. they are a magnet and a reed switch like the speed sensor. that way they'll be sealed from the elements.

Brian

[shackwrrr]

MPGmike is coming out with an electronic boost controller that uses the speed sensor to act as a traction control. There will be an adjustment for a rate of rise and any wheel spin will result in reduced boost.

[Reaper1]

Prox on the rear wheel to do speed and then you can use speed controlled boost via LM or SMEC.

The other thing I started last season and gathered parts for and never finished was a prox to see the shifter in 1st gear. Then an adjustable time off delay relay so that boost doesn't immediately go high after shifting out of first. First gear, prox is on, low boost solenoid is on. Bang 2nd gear, the relay is still latched for X amount of time, before switching to high boost mode.

I think it would be pretty difficult to setup a shifter with 4 switches.....but I might just try to tackle it if we never come up with a good electronic way to do it. I probably would use mini Turck prox's though.....just don't like mechanical wear items like micro-switches and mechanical relays all that much. Not saying I wouldn't use them, but prefer prox's and solid state relays.


Apexi is the only boost controller I know of that takes RPM and MPH and 'learns' your gears, then does gear controlled boost the most proper way.

Rob and I were working on gear controlled boost via logic module (which is what I run), but there is no divide function in LM code.

OK...brain fart time...what is a "Prox"?


Didnt some spirit r/ts come with ABS?

I know for a fact the ac/ay bodies (dynasty, new yorker, imperial 89-93) could be had with abs, and they had the non-vented 10.5" rear disc setup.

So, if you happen to use the 10.5 rear discs already you should be able to snag something off one of the ABS ac/ay cars that will give you a rear wheel speed sensor.

Spirit's, Daytona's, LeBaron's could all be had with ABS. You really only need the hub as that is what as the tone ring on it. The backing plates are differerent, but I think you could probably modify a non-ABS one fairly easily to hold the sensor.


is it a hall effect or a VR sensor for the ABS stuff? hall effect, no problem. VR, gotta put together a conditioning circuit to make it nice square pulses.

as for prox sensors or microswitches, they can be installed on the trans end of things. thats where you get the most consistent and drastic movement.

you could even use security door switches for the shifter ranges. they are a magnet and a reed switch like the speed sensor. that way they'll be sealed from the elements.

Brian

Those switches are kinda big as far as their physical size (looking at one right now in the house!). Brake switches would work, if you can find them small enough. I actually wanted to mount te switches on the shifter to keep them out of the engine compartment. Also, the shifter has the longer throw and more room to really work with, but I understand the issue with the consistancy of the movement. That is part of the reason I enver got around to building mine. I couldn't figure out a way to activate the switches that would be reliable.

[Vigo]

MPGmike is coming out with an electronic boost controller that uses the speed sensor to act as a traction control. There will be an adjustment for a rate of rise and any wheel spin will result in reduced boost.

The only hole i see in that is if you have the left wheel spinning, an open diff, and no other input besides the VSS, the system wouldnt see it.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah i wish we had the neons speed sensor setup, driven from the diff carrier. it shows you the average speed of the front wheels.

if we did later front abs knuckles and rear abs stuff, we could make a controller taking an average speed of the front wheels, vs the average speed of the rear wheels for boost control.

with something that retards timing/controls boost, traction control is possible.

Brian

[shackwrrr]

yeah i wish we had the neons speed sensor setup, driven from the diff carrier. it shows you the average speed of the front wheels.

if we did later front abs knuckles and rear abs stuff, we could make a controller taking an average speed of the front wheels, vs the average speed of the rear wheels for boost control.

with something that retards timing/controls boost, traction control is possible.

Brian

hes got that coming too ;) other than the retard though

[vipernbox]

Not that there is a bunch of them around... but the Masi has ABS rear disks also... That is what I have on the GLHS now... :)

[Reeves]

Didnt some spirit r/ts come with ABS?

I know for a fact the ac/ay bodies (dynasty, new yorker, imperial 89-93) could be had with abs, and they had the non-vented 10.5" rear disc setup.

So, if you happen to use the 10.5 rear discs already you should be able to snag something off one of the ABS ac/ay cars that will give you a rear wheel speed sensor.

That is worth looking into. Do you happen to have any pics or an iso-view explosion diagram from a service manual?


you could even use security door switches for the shifter ranges. they are a magnet and a reed switch like the speed sensor. that way they'll be sealed from the elements.

Brian

The prox's I'm talking about are completely sealed. I'll find a link.


OK...brain fart time...what is a "Prox"?



Spirit's, Daytona's, LeBaron's could all be had with ABS. You really only need the hub as that is what as the tone ring on it. The backing plates are differerent, but I think you could probably modify a non-ABS one fairly easily to hold the sensor.

That is part of the reason I enver got around to building mine. I couldn't figure out a way to activate the switches that would be reliable.

Prox's is short for proximity sensor. It senses when metal is near and switches state. See link.

So you are saying the tone ring was on the hub? All hubs are the same (except for vans) so I wonder if a tone ring hub could be added to any of our existing vehicles?
I hope someone can find it in their service manual a diagram of what this setup looks like.

And that's also the reason I haven't done it all on the shifter yet either. There is just too much slop for me to think that it'll be 100% reliable.


yeah i wish we had the neons speed sensor setup, driven from the diff carrier. it shows you the average speed of the front wheels.

if we did later front abs knuckles and rear abs stuff, we could make a controller taking an average speed of the front wheels, vs the average speed of the rear wheels for boost control.

with something that retards timing/controls boost, traction control is possible.

Brian

Oh yeah!

Link to prox's
http://www.turck-usa.com/Products/Sensors/Capacitive/Barrel_with_Quick_Disconnect/3-wire_PNP_(Sourcing).htm

[vipernbox]

Prox's is short for proximity sensor. It senses when metal is near and switches state. See link.

So you are saying the tone ring was on the hub? All hubs are the same (except for vans) so I wonder if a tone ring hub could be added to any of our existing vehicles?
I hope someone can find it in their service manual a diagram of what this setup looks like.
.



Looking at a 1990 FSM now... and I don't see any great pictures of the rear shown.. Just the fronts.. They show sensor location ect... but no good pictures of the rear tone ring.. I guess they assume it isn't a big deal???

Need a parts manual I guess..

I can get all the pictures you could want of the Masi setup... which I assume is the same as all the others... ?????

[Aries_Turbo]

i dunno james, those turck switches look awful expensive retail. i assume you can get them cheap.

reed switches are terribly cheap and can be potted in epoxy pretty easily for protection.

even if you double them up in parallel for extra reliability, you are only paying 1$ per switch.

add some small magnets and you are golden.

i know our speed sensors arent the most reliable thing in the world but you have to think about how many times the reed switch in them is cycled per mile and how many miles the cars are driven before they get to their failure point. its pretty freaking high compared to how often we shift the car.

Brian

[Aries_Turbo]

ok so this

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=65K1068&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

will switch our solenoids with 30ohm coils at least 10,000,000 times without failure. the datasheet says 20vdc and 500ma. we'll be at less voltage so the current will be less. that will increase the life a decent amount. besides there is a safety factor taken into account so the life should be even greater.

use a different solenoid with a higher resistance (ohm) coil and the life increases even more.

Brian

[Reeves]

I did some checking and you are right, the Turck Prox's are kinda expensive at about $75 or so a piece. I been getting a couple here and there for free :)

The reed switch looks to be a good alternative, and a little smaller footprint.

I heard SICK now makes some cheaper capacitive prox's...I might look at those too.

Advantage to the prox is it's solid state, and doesn't require any magnets.
Advantage to the reed switch is definitely price.

[1966 dart wagon]

What if someone had say a 3 stage button, press one and it gets pushed down(canceling out the other 2 buttons) then when you hit the 2nd it shuts off the 1st stage and then when you hit the 3rd button the 2nd button is turned off, just like how the hvac buttons work, hit vent then when you hit bi level it shuts off vent and so and and so on, something like that , have 1st for launching, the 2nd button for say 2/3 then hit 3 for highest setting say mid 3rd into 4th.?????? Just thinking out loud.

[Vigo]

That is worth looking into. Do you happen to have any pics or an iso-view explosion diagram from a service manual?

Unfortunately no. Its just something i figured out at the junkyard many moons ago. I used to have a set of 93 service manuals for those cars but i havent seen them in years..? :(

[Reeves]

What if someone had say a 3 stage button, press one and it gets pushed down(canceling out the other 2 buttons) then when you hit the 2nd it shuts off the 1st stage and then when you hit the 3rd button the 2nd button is turned off, just like how the hvac buttons work, hit vent then when you hit bi level it shuts off vent and so and and so on, something like that , have 1st for launching, the 2nd button for say 2/3 then hit 3 for highest setting say mid 3rd into 4th.?????? Just thinking out loud.


Only problem with the buttons is I'm not that coordinated. I have a hard enough time trying to get the OMNI to go straight down the track with 2 hands and shifting.

I try to make everything as automatic as possible.

For example,
I used to try to look at all the gauges and drive the beast, but never could see what any of the gauges were really doing, so I just started datalogging the run. I now only have a boost gauge and a dawes A/F for street cruising. I don't look at anything but a quick glance at the tach when going down the 1320.

When datalogging I used to have to get everything running right before the run, and then hit the space bar when I was done with the run. Getting everything ready before the run wasn't too bad, but sometimes you are in a real big hurry getting jacket on, getting strapped in, getting helmet on, etc. Then the space bar thing was sometimes scary. IF I did it on the return road, I'd lose half the run, so I had to do it on shutdown, which isn't always pleasant. My butt hole gets pretty tight on short tracks. Better now that I have upgraded the brakes, but still.

CSXTRA hooked him and myself up with his software skills so now that whenever I go WOT, everything starts logging for 30 seconds. And, if I double WOT (like after a burnout, or if I mess up somewhere on the track) it starts the 30 second timer over again. Works like a charm! And I can now hide my laptop in the car, as I don't need to hit any buttons or give any user feedback. That makes the guys in the lanes happy that they don't see it !

[1966 dart wagon]

As I was typing it I was thinking, man this is alot of extra bs you are having to do, it would take alot of practice I would think. I know the feeling with gauges I try and watch them but if something was WAY off would I notice, I try and keep an eye on my wb but the little LCD screen on my zietronix is kinda hard to read. I also datalog its the best way to go IMO, or have someone ride with you who will watch stuff on the datalogg and say lift or something I do that while tunning.

[Reeves]

or have someone ride with you who will watch stuff on the datalogg and say lift or something I do that while tunning.

Ha ha.. That made me think of one time I had my neighbor ride with the laptop in his lap and we went out for a run. I explained to him to watch a close eye on the A/F and Boost. I hammered it out on a straight stretch, lost a cylinder and all my water, let out, then he said "LIFT!" Uh....too late....

That was a long ride home stopping every mile to let it cool down.

[ShelGame]

Reeves - I'm going to revisit this. Eventhought the LM doesn't have a divide instruction (making it hard to calculate the RPM/Speed to get the gear ratio) it DOES already calculate the inverse RPM and inverse Speed (Dist PW and SDS PW). We might be able to multiply the SDS PW by the calculated RPM to get a drive ratio and set boost by that. The issue will be setting a scale for the drive ratio. Might take some datalogging to tune it in...

[DodgeZ]

in a drag car I'd think boost by speed would work fine. In a street car if you want to pass with out downshifting boost by gear would be helpful. Since you can be in 3rd,4th or 5th at the same MPH, you'd want different boost. When you flat out at the track you are basically going to be in different MPH ranges for each gear. Even if you are spinning in 1st your MPH is still going to be in the range for 1st.

If say your 1st gear is 0-20mph. set the boost for 0-25mph
If your 2nd is 20-60mph set the boost for 25-65mph
3rd is 60-95mph set the boost for 65-100mph.
etc...

lower the rev limiter so you can't bonce the RPMs up too high spinning..

Am I crazy?

[ShelGame]

in a drag car I'd think boost by speed would work fine. In a street car if you want to pass with out downshifting boost by gear would be helpful. Since you can be in 3rd,4th or 5th at the same MPH, you'd want different boost. When you flat out at the track you are basically going to be in different MPH ranges for each gear. Even if you are spinning in 1st your MPH is still going to be in the range for 1st.

If say your 1st gear is 0-20mph. set the boost for 0-25mph
If your 2nd is 20-60mph set the boost for 25-65mph
3rd is 60-95mph set the boost for 65-100mph.
etc...

lower the rev limiter so you can't bonce the RPMs up too high spinning..

Am I crazy?

The issue with a drag car is wheel spin. Since the SDS is on a axle shaft, wheel spin will look like high MPH, which would give you higher boost. When in reality, you want to lower the boost a little to stop the wheel spin. If you use the gear ratio, it takes the wheelspin issue out of it...

[DodgeZ]

The issue with a drag car is wheel spin. Since the SDS is on a axle shaft, wheel spin will look like high MPH, which would give you higher boost. When in reality, you want to lower the boost a little to stop the wheel spin. If you use the gear ratio, it takes the wheelspin issue out of it...
so you lower boost it in that speed "range". You aren't going to spin the tires fast enough to be in another gear's MPH range. If you are then your rev limiter needs to come down, If your rev limiter is 2000 rpm higher then your shift point and you are spin so bad you are bouncing off the rev limiter then yes it will give you the wrong mph.. Like if I am doing a burn out my car in 1st gear, it isn't going to tell the computer I am doing 100mph. It is going to be the RPMx1stGear ratio = mph. If 6000rpm in 1st gear comes out to 20mph that is all the computer is going to see, the computer isn't going to see 30mph.

The boost by gear is helpful on the street. For example. In my srt4 at 70mph I can be in 3rd,4th or 5th gear. For example If I am in 3rd at 24psi I can burn the tires off at 70mph, in 4th at 24psi and 70mph I can't so I can run 26psi, then in 5th I can run 30psi at 70mph. If I want to pass and not down shift it would be helpful there to have the extra boost. On the street (maybe road racing tracks also) there different gears in the same MPH range. In flat out drag racing your MPH range should be close to what gear you are in and the only time you want to spin is in 1st on the take off.

[Reeves]

See attachment.

This is an extreme RPM drop from one gear to the next, but you can see where you can definitely get into axle speed overlap during gear changes.

This can happen if you wheelspin bad in 1st, then short shift to 2nd.

If we did boost only on axle speed (MPH), then we would either have too low of boost when shifting early, or too high of boost when losing traction.

[DodgeZ]

See attachment.

This is an extreme RPM drop from one gear to the next, but you can see where you can definitely get into axle speed overlap during gear changes.

This can happen if you wheelspin bad in 1st, then short shift to 2nd.

If we did boost only on axle speed (MPH), then we would either have too low of boost when shifting early, or too high of boost when losing traction.

yeah, I can see that on the street but you aren't going to drop 3500 rpm between shifting at the track. When you shift at the track your axle speed isn't going backwards, Unless you spin and then stop (lower boost should fix that). Your axle speed is always spinning faster. If you are blazing the tires that badly in first you need to lower the boost, of course I don't have a 10 second car. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have boost by gear just thinking out loud about being able to use boost by MPH right now until Rob can make it a feature.

[Vigo]

You aren't going to spin the tires fast enough to be in another gear's MPH range.

You will if it shifts in the middle of it. I know we're talking about 5spds but an auto doesnt give a crap how fast the car is actually going if the right axle is spinning fast. Ive watched the previous owner peg the speedo off 120 while we were going 30mph in this 3.0 dynasty i have.

I agree with your premise. It would be a lot easier to make a simplistic VSS system work on a drag strip than work on the street. For a more useful system, i think having another input (like the rear wheel speed sensor) is necessary.

[Reeves]

Reeves - I'm going to revisit this. Eventhought the LM doesn't have a divide instruction (making it hard to calculate the RPM/Speed to get the gear ratio) it DOES already calculate the inverse RPM and inverse Speed (Dist PW and SDS PW). We might be able to multiply the SDS PW by the calculated RPM to get a drive ratio and set boost by that. The issue will be setting a scale for the drive ratio. Might take some datalogging to tune it in...

That would be totally awesome!
I datalog every run..... Everything the LM sees, and everything my Zeitronix sees.

[ShelGame]

Just hit a snag - my thumbdrive with all of my cal files just took a crap. Trying to recover it now. I backed it up a week or so ago, so it's not a total loss if I can't get it back...

[Reeves]

Just hit a snag - my thumbdrive with all of my cal files just took a crap. Trying to recover it now. I backed it up a week or so ago, so it's not a total loss if I can't get it back...

Oh no....that sucks man!
I know how ya feel. My laptop was stolen last year. I didn't have backups of anything except for music and movies :(

[roachjuice]

I'm assuming no one Got the boost by speed thing to work in the lm? It's never worked for me.