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Ondonti
03-06-2011, 08:10 AM
Edit, Here she is.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7388.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7390.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7373.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7374.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7379-1.jpg


--------------------------------------
Build process
Dodge Spirit, daily driver.
This motor had some problems its whole life. I had the motor delivered with 148,000 miles from a wrecking yard in Jan 2006. I actually put my old turbo setup on this motor for a few days but I put a stock clutch in (took the good stuff from the car) and the clutch wouldn't do anything but slip. Something has always been wrong with the headgasket. Always suffered from constant rusting red coolant with massive amounts of deposits.
It also had a burned exhaust valve all along (that kept getting worse).

After years of mercilous beating, the final blow was two 1000 mile trips towing my Duster and then my Starlet. Blew out the headgasket between 2 cylinders. I only found out because it had a strange exhaust note after the last tow (probably part raw fuel from the burned exhaust valve and part headgasket).
Along the trip, the coolant crossover pipe sprung a leak spraying blood red coolant everywhere. Best part of the trip was when 90 miles from home the steel starter ring insert broke loosed from the Fidanza aluminum flywheel (welded it back in place).

Taking the rotating assembly from this terrible block and putting it in the block that I ran 11's in 2009 with. I already stole the crankshaft from that block.
Honing the block and installing 91.1mm Chrome Power Seal rings with maybe an 18 top gap and ~21ish 2nd gap (not sure yet).

Then taking the stock cylinder heads that I put on my duster and have the mechanical rockers installed in with big regrind. Proceed to stealing all the turbo setup parts from the Duster except the turbo. Install RRRFPR that I no longer use in the Spirit.

Free Holset HE341 from a coworder who went to watch me run 11's in 2009. I need to modify the downpipe to go from 4" into the 3" downpipe. This downpipe was originally for my Spirit.
Going to go with http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php Innovated MTX-L wideband. I also found a 2.5 bar wastegate spring, and also another spring meant for Semi Trailer brakes but the right diameter so I might try using that for fun (probably won't allow more then 1 psi boost). I might want to run 87 octane for awhile driving to work. Not going to have the wideband installed for who knows how long so that will give me some safety cushion.

The reason why the Duster is losing its parts... :eyebrows: 2012.:eyebrows:

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6838.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6815.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6817.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6819.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6842.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6830.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6831.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6832.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6833.jpg


---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 AM ----------

[/COLOR]This is the original 3.0 turbo setup that I built. The air filter is was just temporary and the picture were taken by a friend and sent to me later on because I never remembered to take pics.

The car was much happier back then. No rust and it had paint. Stupid Utah sun and salt killed the car.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Original%20Setup/Picture005.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Original%20Setup/Picture004.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Original%20Setup/Picture003.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Original%20Setup/Picture001.jpg

Vigo
03-06-2011, 05:04 PM
So no intercooler at first? what injectors?

Ondonti
03-07-2011, 02:54 AM
The intercooler in the original turbo setup went to the Duster, its going back to the Spirit. 30# ford injectors going into the Spirit. Duster will keep the Ford 47# injectors but they are currently maxed out on 50psi base pressure at only 14psi. I think the 47# injectors are flawed because they seem to have poor control at low duty cycle. They are injectors that were modified by a fuel injector shop. Probably originally 30# injectors. They might be okay for an n/a vehicle that consumes more fuel at idle compared to its peak hp but a boosted vehicle needs a wider usable range of pulsewidths from its injectors :(
It sucks being out of fuel up top and having a hard time with idle enrichment. At least with the RRR setup I could run super low base fuel pressure (less fuel at idle) and super high pressure up top (more hp from the same injectors). If I run super high base fuel pressure to make more power, Idle will get more difficult.

Big camshafts also necessitate the need for a precise injector.

Ondonti
03-20-2011, 04:12 AM
I took the motor apart completely. It was a bit of a pain to get the timing gear off because I slightly mushroomed the tip of the crankshaft. I tried to use sandpaper because I didn't want to get the dremel. After 1.5 hours of being pissed I spent 2 minutes with the dremel and got it off :P

The oil rings are all oil sludge seized into the piston. I found no trace of the cylinder to cylinder leak I thought I had. I don't really understand why. the headgasket was pristine between #2 and #4. I can't explain the air I felt that only went from #4 to #2 when dong a leakdown.

#1, my highest compression cylinder, had a tiny failure in the fire ring which had been contaminating my coolant but not causing any noticeable problems. Been going on since I got that motor in January 2006. Never even overheated when towing. The headgasket looked almost perfect except a little gap in the composite between the fire ring and a coolant passage. It was actually between layers of composite and not touching either the head or the block. Just enough to give some hydrocarbon contamination.

Right now I have decided the block looks really good so I will use it instead of my spare block which is in unknown condition.
Not a single scuff in the cylinders. Its obvious the motor had a few long oil changes but when I had the motor delivered to my house the spark plugs were worn out until they had .075" gaps. Knocked a huge pile of rust powder from the block.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6845.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6846.jpg
Pretty terrible looking pistons. Rings not happy. I am betting the seized up oil rings don't help.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6848.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6849.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6850.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6834-1.jpg[COLOR="Silver"]

Ondonti
03-27-2011, 07:47 AM
Deglazed the cylinders and it became apparent that water sat in the cylinder with the bad spot in the headgasket. Not going to have a perfect cylinder there but I am over it :P
I guess 5 years was long enough for that bad spot in the headgasket. Finally started leaking back into the cylinder.

turbovanman²
03-27-2011, 02:21 PM
The oil rings are all oil sludge seized into the piston. I found no trace of the cylinder to cylinder leak I thought I had. I don't really understand why. the headgasket was pristine between #2 and #4. I can't explain the air I felt that only went from #4 to #2 when dong a leakdown.



Leaking valves will do that.

Looks like a fun project, the HE341 looks right at home, :nod:

Ondonti
03-27-2011, 09:37 PM
I think the he341 will be a hoot with stock heads and the 278 cams. Those cams and stock heads still seemed like they would pull down a 120mph pass on 14psi based on roll racing.
The he341 will make less power per psi but I am wondering if I might see full boost at 3000 or earlier. No idea what to expect. I made 5 pounds at 3100-3200 rpms but then 20 was reached around 4000. Would be cool to see 1psi at 1500 rpms and 5psi at 2400ish. Really cool.
If anything, it will be killer for towing. I hate hills in 5th gear. Even slight inclines suck thanks to the 3.50 gears in that car and oversize tires.

Interested to see how it will compare to the original k27 ebay turbo setup. That had a large turbine but the tune was 9:1 AFR with too much timing when I hit the track.

I have a spring from a tractor trailer S cam brake part kit that I think will give me about 1psi boost. Going to run that for awhile with 87 octane :)
Maybe hit the races if I get moved to Days.

turbovanman²
03-28-2011, 12:55 AM
Can't wait to see, I need a turbo for my 4.3 so this will give me a good idea how it will do.

Ondonti
04-03-2011, 06:13 AM
Well after finishing prepping the pistons (way too much work into them, should have bought new ones, I also drilled out the oil holes to near 3mm), I decided to measure the rings (already measured one before i broke them into pieces to clean the piston lands).

Well original compression tests were something like this (exact numbers on TD but I don't go there and not sure where the original piece of paper is.
#1 175
#2 168
#3 165
#4 163
#5 133
#6 126

Ring Gaps: might have gotten mixed up but should be correct. They were just stacked in order of piston removal, and I think i removed from #6 to #1. I know #6 was first but I can't guarantee the rest.

Yes, they are freakin huge. I don't understand why.
#1 .027 top .023 2nd
#2 .029 top .025 2nd
#3 .032 top .024 2nd
#4 .025 top .022 2nd
#5 .026 top .021 2nd
#6 .031 top .020 2nd
Interesting note is that the front bank 1 3 5 are not the exact same casting of piston as 2 4 6. One bank is rougher on top then the other (including rougher #'s and direction indicator) AND has different baffles in the oil control rings. Rings gaps are consistent front to rear.

Motor has about 165k miles and all I did was deglaze the cylinders. I didn't even remove discolorations in the cylinders.

The shortblock that I took apart and regapped for the Duster was a Mitsubishi 10:1 motor from a Diamante, and the ring gaps were much smaller, plus the 2nd gap was larger then the top, which is not OEM spec for the 8.85/8.9:1 shortblock but nowadays is how all good shops gap their rings.
I gapped the duster .024 top and .030 2nd to avoid shattering the top ring and prevent pressure buildup between top and 2nd ringgs. Since the motor had 190,000 miles and I did not replace anything or even deglaze, I figured the top rings would leak a little more then their gap would indicate.
The top rings in the Diamante shortblock were between .011" and .019" and the 2nd rings were .021-.024" or so. That .011" gapped piston would have blown to crap if I tried to run much boost.

I have a nice bore gauge....but no idea where it is. I have some junk rings I can try fitting this week to see how they compare.

The new Sealed Power chrome rings before filing are top .017" and .015" 2nd in cylinder #5.
I Am not sure if i want to gap .020 or .022 for these rings top and then .004 bigger on the 2nd rings.
The 8.9:1 pistons are the worst pistons for boost because they have the huge intake valve relief and a higher top ring land which weakens crown in that area (breaks off when the rings butt).
Considering that I couldn't get the rings to butt on 18 pounds of boost on the 67mm turbo with a .024" gap, .020" might be okay with a little holset, but the holset also might pump more heat into the engine then the pt6765.
.022 is a big gap but I don't want to find weaknesses on my daily :yuck:

Maybe I will see what those junk rings from some old broken pistons gap at in these cylinders. That motor broke 5 out of 6 pistons (not all at the same time) in 2005 so it might be nice to analyze the ring gaps. One piston which SHOULD have blown did not (middle front bank, massive reversion there on that stupid stock front manifold). Good chance that was because that shortblock had 1 big gap piston and then 5 smaller gaps, and maybe the first 3 that blew were the smallest.

The thing is that the E85 stock shortblock didn't lose a ringland until I O ringed the heads and ran 22psi on slicks at the track and leaned out. Original motor that blew had the timing messed up and advanced 12 degrees...

I would like to run the smaller top ring gap because the cams are already gonna wreck my mileage.

If the gaps were really that bad, and the rings seat properly, I think she will pick up quite a few hp n/a. I think this makes sense why the motor had a lot of blow bye. It consumed oil (probably thanks to the seized oil rings) and pushed oil out of the breather and other places. Burned oil very badly with synthetic. I do think I am gonna make more power then I was planning depending what I have in the tank.

I got my Washington State registration all taken care of and 278's will not be a problem in the daily :evil::evil::evil:
I really really wonder how a stock motor with 67mm will compare to stock motor with the 278's and smaller holset turbo...The holset really isn't that small and at 5-16 pounds of boost I don't know how much of a difference it will make. The 278's worked great on stock heads with megasquirt. Holset might be nice as it probably won't move the powerband so far to the right and its higher backpressure should cause less leaning out up top on an OEM n/a ecu.

The Duster went 11.99@117mph at 4400 feet on 16 pounds E85 and bone stock longblock n/a ecu, no alky injection turned on, so the heavier Holset Spirit could do ??? Woot sea level. Then I get to start on Junkyard 2.0.

Vigo
04-03-2011, 12:17 PM
Are the 8.9:1 pistons the ones that came in all of them up to ~96?

I doubt the difference between the holset and the bigger turbo will be significant at low boost, like you said.

How bad of an mpg hit are you expecting to take from the cams? I dont know that ring sealing has that drastic an effect on MPG. Ive seen cars that had massive blowby still get roughly the same mileage as new.

Ondonti
04-03-2011, 11:47 PM
I don't really know anything about it in regards to mpg. I think the issue is that a decent amount of blowbye is a LOT when it comes to your breathing system but not enough to notice at the gas pump. The Duster always got decent mileage until I switched to E85. That was with the 1.6:1 rockers. With 1.5:1 rockers the cams are actually at 278 (my 278 cams were a lot bigger then 278 because the cam guy thought OEM ratio was 1.5). The Spirit weighs a lot more so I think city driving would show the biggest hit. Slower freeway speeds in Seattle will also drop RPMs in 5th gear possibly hurting economy by dropping out of the happy torque zone.

8.9:1 is a 1992+ piston, and I dont believe the myth about 1996+ 9.3:1 pistons or whatever because I bought one and the pistons were the same.
Original 3.0 pistons are 8.85:1, and have a lower 2nd ring so with the proper gap they should be better for boost. With OEM gaps, you never know what you have in your darn motor.

The 3.8L Taurus I have been driving is getting 17mpg to and from work with a very very light foot. Surely I can beat that. I might cheat a bit with the narrowband switchover point after I get some baseline MPG numbers.

Vigo
04-04-2011, 12:40 AM
Sounds like a plan.

I remembered something about you explaining that 96+ being the same piston before, but i guess it didnt stick. I have an 89 and a 95 shortblock sitting right next to each other, i should see what i can see..

Beating 17mpg in the spirit will be as easy as NOT idling through an entire tank of gas without moving.. that's atrocious!

Ondonti
04-05-2011, 08:25 AM
My dad's 2009 Rolla only gets 22mpg because his commute is about 3 miles to the park and ride. My trip is 10 miles and half of that is freeway/divided highway. I really don't agree with warmup enrichment and how it wastes so much fuel. There should be a "short trip" button on cars.

Megasquirt warmup enrichment is very very conservative as far as time goes. My warmup enrichment on the duster is really bad right now.

I am gonna go with .020" top ring and .022" 2nd ring (maybe .024")


Edit:
Buying this. Filing by hand is not so fun.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-906000/
http://www.team-integra.net/sections/members/images/f14acfdc-ed75-4b4e-a7e5-9d59c16a01d7.jpg

And I think I am gonna gap .022 and .026 just to be safe. Gasoline is gonna run hotter then Ethanol so I can't assume .024 is indestructable on gasoline.

Vigo
04-05-2011, 02:50 PM
Yikes, that thing looks expensive for how simple it is.

Ondonti
04-06-2011, 04:54 AM
The diamond cutting disc is $23 to replace.

Ondonti
04-10-2011, 08:12 AM
Pistons looked like crap. I probably should just have purchased new pistons. Cleaning the ring lands really sucked. They end up looking very decent.



http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6860.jpg
You can see the weird oil ring differences. Different from top to bottom, but both styles were still coked up and seized.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6851.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6854.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6855.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6856.jpg
The oil holes were clogged with coked oil so I oversized them. I did the same thing on the 10:1 pistons in the duster.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6857.jpg


http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6859.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_6862.jpg
Pistons prepped and ready for new rings. I used a really light sandpaper on the outside and then a bit rougher on top then smoothed that out. The only real important cleaning was the ringlands, and they were very difficult to clean because of the corrosion/burned oil or whatever it was clogging everything up. The stuff i scraped out almost looked like iron oxide rust.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7106.jpg

---------- Post added at 05:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 AM ----------

The ring grinder worked great. Made filing a lot less nervy. I would watch the pile of shavings grow on top of the ring to judge how much I was removing, get it close, then install and remove after light grinding to get it perfect.
I think it was good money for what it did, how it looks, etc. I spent 161 dollars shipping some documents overseas 2 weeks ago so $99 dollars for something I get to keep = sweet. :P I just wish my bore gauge had not gone missing, so it feels like a lot more money disappeared.

.022" top Chrome
.026" 2nd, on ALL pistons. When I have done some by hand with a normal file, it’s hard to be consistent.

View of the diamond cutter. Made in the USA.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7091.jpg
Non cutting side of the wheel
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7093.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7095.jpg
To level the rings, I used the one surviving pistons from my original turbo setup that was also used by Venolia to make my forged pistons (they scratched in x and y scales through the middle and scanned the top of the piston so they could cnc the OEM dish instead of having a crap circle dish). Oh, memories. Funny I have gotten use out of the surviving piston.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7096.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7098.jpg


http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7099.jpg
Last check on a .022” top ring.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7100.jpg
Rings gapped

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7105.jpg
Time to put the crankshaft back in.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7107.jpg
Moly lubed.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7108.jpg

Ondonti
04-10-2011, 08:25 AM
Main Girdle Install
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7110.jpg
New vs Old Oil rings
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7113.jpg
Interesting wire setup on the oil ring.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7116.jpg
Pistons reringed and good to go.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7118.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7120.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7121.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7122.jpg
The girdle makes installing rod caps more difficult.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7123.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7124.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7127.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7128.jpg
I went to 70 ft/lb instead of OEM 60# on the mains. The Duster has 1G DSM headbolts torqued to 90 or 95 ft/lb that also engage about 3mm deeper into the block. Not a real big deal to do this. I might have rather done 80 ft/lb but I don’t plan on detonating this thing hard. Also not sure what these bolts can take. I have 3 different versions of these main bolts (mitsu and 6g73 dodge). Not sure which oem is the best, because 1g DSM headbolts are perfect.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7129.jpg
38 ft/lb on the connecting rods. Ready for all sorts of rpms that I won’t be able to run.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7130.jpg
Video of shortblock turning over.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/th_MVI_7125.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/?action=view&current=MVI_7125.mp4)

Next is the rear main seal, front main seal and oil pump. Then I start stripping the heads off the Duster. Most annoying part of the project will then be modifying the downpipe and modding the oil pan since I want to leave the Duster’s pan in place.

Vigo
04-10-2011, 11:14 PM
Looks awesome. Good pictorial for people who are fuzzy on what gapping rings means. :)

Kreel
04-11-2011, 01:08 PM
Love the detail + pics. Whenever I get around to tearing down a shortblock I'll be referring back to this :D

Turbo224
04-11-2011, 04:27 PM
Maybe I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread, but are you putting your Duster parts into the Spirit?

Vigo
04-11-2011, 05:08 PM
Some of them.

Ondonti
04-12-2011, 01:41 AM
Love the detail + pics. Whenever I get around to tearing down a shortblock I'll be referring back to this :D
Seeing the pics makes it a lot easier to pick up the torch. I would have liked to get this all done a lot faster but I have had little motivation with work and personal life orbiting around me.
All i managed to do today was pick up some silver solder for the mechanical rocker oil passages (drill large, then fill, then use tiny drill bit to drill the solder), and oil pan return parts. Bought some copper solder and I will see if I can seal up the weld on the pan with that. I don't anticipate a good weld when i put the cast iron 45 degree 1/2" NPT fitting onto the oil pan. No idea what the copper solder will do. I saw it and bought it. My original pan was copper brazed by the shop that repaired what a friend had tried to weld.

I am going to keep documenting with pics as I go. That also takes time. You will see the good things and the bad things I do. I will be replacing the rear and front main seals, but then you will see me reuse some felpro composite headgaskets that are on the duster and about a year old now. :eyebrows: Yes since I have a job now it doesn't make financial sense but its fun showing how to get away with it.

One questionable thing is my coolant crossover. I emergency JB welded a spot on the bypass tube that rusted through and was leaking BAD (it blew out near the end of my last trip), but it might be a good idea to weld it. That leaking headgasket sure created some nasty corrosion in my coolant system. Worried about the heater core, which I assume is mostly clogged with rust powder. Every time I turn the block over as I work on it, more rust powder falls out even though I have spent extensive time trying to knock it all out. I don't want to see the heater core pop a leak.


Maybe I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread, but are you putting your Duster parts into the Spirit?
...

Some of them.
All the turbo specific parts were originally installed on my Spirit (except the larger turbo) and designed for my Spirit.
Yup, while tempted to just keep playing with it, I want my daily to be turbo and the Duster needs an update. The Spirit is getting pretty much everything off the Duster except the shortblock, intake manifold (I might swap that as well), and turbo. The Duster was toned down this last summer running on stock heads. The shortblock in the Duster is a ticking timebomb for rod knock as 1 journal is out of spec, so it can't go into a daily driver.
The Duster's turbo manifold was meant for a daily driver when it was built so its going where it belongs. I have not really released my complete plans for the Duster and I don't even have time to touch it. Its been sitting since September with no rear window.

c2xejk
04-12-2011, 01:17 PM
The JB can hold up, but you surface prep needs to be very good. ie. get rid of all the corrision, then clean the surface with brake cleaner (I prefer the stuff that has acetone in it.)

For epoxy a thicker epoxy is better because you can mold it and it will maintain it's shape while it cures. With JB weld, you can use clay or tape to form a dam.

Ondonti
04-12-2011, 06:47 PM
All i remember is that I sanded it and JB'd it. I...probably cleaned it lol. JB weld (well pretty much anything) tends to do a better job sealing against pressure when applied from the inside because it creates an interference fit, sadly not possible. It was a test fix cause I was trying to figure out what was up with the car. I probably have more crossover pipes anyways. I would really like to move to the non 2 bolt transmission bracket style crossover (I think its a Diamante pipe). I have one of those but will probably save it for the Duster.

turbovanman²
04-12-2011, 08:06 PM
I would just get another pipe, better safe than sorry.

Ondonti
04-17-2011, 06:19 AM
Well after thinking about the fact that I have more job and less time, I bought 2 new headgaskets and reused the Junkyards Felpro headgaskets to install the Spirits bad heads on it. Had to drill out the webbing between cylinders 1 and 3 on the rear exhaust manifold to fit the oil dipstick. Grrrr. So the Duster now has a 10:1 shortblock, stock heads with at least 1 leaking valve, diamante cams, custom intake manifold, 3" something or other (eventually get the 3" exhaust put back on so its not 3" open headache with no turbo), and megasquirt, and no rear window still.
I had previously planned on having the Duster just be completely dead until I had time for it. I like this better.

On the turbo friendly gauges I need to add, I decided to use an OEM boost gauge that was in a box of crap inside the Duster when I bought it. Then since it strangely has 2 black painted metal faceplates behide the clear plastic, I will take one of those and make a mock OEM style enclosure and stick my Innovative MTX-L sceen behind it. That will mean nobody can see the round gauge pod shape of it, just the lights and #'s. I think I am going to enjoy that fraud OEM look. I will lose the cubby hole that I love in AA bodies but I don't really keep anything there that actually needs to be there. I think its worth not having any gauges sticking out where the don't belong.

Vigo
04-17-2011, 10:57 PM
you talking about the cubby in front of the shifter? thats the only one mine has..

Ondonti
04-18-2011, 01:51 AM
The cubby below the center vents. I have always loved it but I figure eventually I will get a phone that won't fit in there and having a spot just to hold some quarters that keep flying out if I do a powershift is not a great reason to keep it.

RoadWarrior222
04-18-2011, 02:39 PM
All i remember is that I sanded it and JB'd it. I...probably cleaned it lol. JB weld (well pretty much anything) tends to do a better job sealing against pressure when applied from the inside because it creates an interference fit, sadly not possible. It was a test fix cause I was trying to figure out what was up with the car. I probably have more crossover pipes anyways.

It's semi-possible, just gotta do it a bit different... you cut a strip of steel or aluminum (Depending what you're fixing, wanna try and keep thermal expansion the same) that you can slide in sideways and pull a bolt through, and slather that through the hole with JB, more all round the bolt and tighten a bolt and washer down on top, makes for reinforcement. Don't have to have it bolted up real tight, so you can hold the spare thread with pliers to get it snugged up good enough if you didn't find a way of stopping the head revolving. Could possibly have pulled a bolt and washer through from the tranny end with a magnetic "fishing" rod on that.... then back slathered it and smoothed it out with a flashlight and stick... buuuut not worth the bother if you think you can change it out easy enough later. Worth bearing in mind for stuff like holed plastic rad tanks etc. I double fender washered my tranny case with JB but that was a little easier to get to the back of.... though I think I ended up "fishing" it through because I couldn't be both sides of it at once.

The other way to do smaller pipes that rot out in a single spot or get holed or chafed is to wrap them with mechanics wire, coiled close all round, then either solder, braze or JB weld into/over that. Makes a reinforced tube over the top. Evacuate fuel, oil or brake lines thoroughly before getting heat on them though.

Vigo
04-18-2011, 02:50 PM
Ahh ok, that makes more sense. I have a message center there with lights and stuff, no cubby. I plan to use it to mount wb02 and egt.

Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:39 AM
I don't have time to caption this all up or explain things (I will try to later) but its pretty much a complete breakdown of finishing up building a 3.0 and then a fine detail breakdown of everything else.

The injectors are 30#, the fuel rail is an old style parallel.
I have a leaking crossover pipe problem, already replaced the jb welded one and I needed to, the bypass is now split down the middle just from sitting. Replaced it with another pipe but its a pipe that gave me problems years ago and I sorta forgot. new pipes are 40+ for the short and 80+ for the long and I don't want to pay no matter how annoying the leak issue gets.
Also have a downpipe problen. Exhaust is about 0.5-1" too short to hook up without massive preload. I stripped out the 4" v band clamp when trying to put the downpipe back on after swapping coolant crossovers (with new o rings). I was NOT happy about that. Going to attempt to fix it by adding 2 more 3 bolt flanges to the end of my downpipe with 2 more gaskets, like a sandwich. I don't want to hack up the downpipe anymore if I can help it. It doesn't want to line up perfectly with the v band flange and that is he only reason I will cut and reweld anything.

I won't start her until she is ready to drive so I can beat on her. This area sucks for joyrides because there are no usable roads (or unpatrolled roads).

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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:44 AM
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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:49 AM
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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:52 AM
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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:54 AM
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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:54 AM
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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:56 AM
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Ondonti
05-11-2011, 01:59 AM
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http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7383.jpg
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http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7387.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7388.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7390.jpg

Vigo
05-11-2011, 03:31 AM
Sexy. I didnt need captions for any of it, anyway.

It's gonna be SWEET! So whats actually left?

Reaper1
05-11-2011, 01:45 PM
Nice write up. Interesting mod to the t-body.

RoadWarrior222
05-11-2011, 02:36 PM
Awesome :thumb: nice set of pics.


I won't start her until she is ready to drive so I can beat on her. This area sucks for joyrides because there are no usable roads (or unpatrolled roads).


It's frigging ridiculous for that round here sometimes... I mean I don't even want to try and set land speed records, maybe just hold it in 1st gear for a mile and listen for something, or yank the wheel from side to side to check on bushings, or stomp the brakes hard a few times... you know all and any of the things that might be summed up by the term "test drive" ... but that bored cops will have a problem with... and they seem to swarm the damn countryside whenever I need to test something. The other year, I wanted to give it a long run below but close to 2000 rpm to seal up valve seals with an additive because the etest was due NOW, couldn't wait a week or two for normal use to do it. Anyway, so 2000rpm being around 40mph, too fast for the city, too slow for the highway, so I was driving round the back roads, at 10 under the limit, just trying to stay out of everyones way... and a bored cop finds me... was there for half an hour and he just wasn't getting it..."I know you're up to something but I can't figure out what" :rolleyes: then thankfully he got an urgent call

Ondonti
05-11-2011, 07:02 PM
Nice write up. Interesting mod to the t-body.
Previously I installed a longer cable from some sort of 4 cylinder dodge but even after installing the cable holder closer to the throttle cam by drilling new holes, it would kink something fierce. Now I have OEM cable feel. The progressive cam I did this time is extremely progressive. Should give me great throttle control down low and past 50% it will go WOT very quickly.

Awesome :thumb: nice set of pics.



It's frigging ridiculous for that round here sometimes... I mean I don't even want to try and set land speed records, maybe just hold it in 1st gear for a mile and listen for something, or yank the wheel from side to side to check on bushings, or stomp the brakes hard a few times... you know all and any of the things that might be summed up by the term "test drive" ... but that bored cops will have a problem with... and they seem to swarm the damn countryside whenever I need to test something. The other year, I wanted to give it a long run below but close to 2000 rpm to seal up valve seals with an additive because the etest was due NOW, couldn't wait a week or two for normal use to do it. Anyway, so 2000rpm being around 40mph, too fast for the city, too slow for the highway, so I was driving round the back roads, at 10 under the limit, just trying to stay out of everyones way... and a bored cop finds me... was there for half an hour and he just wasn't getting it..."I know you're up to something but I can't figure out what" :rolleyes: then thankfully he got an urgent call

Utah had amazing huge empty roads all over the place. In Seattle I am surrounded by 25mph roads that are packed with cars or are residential/potential pedestrians. There are some big open roads but they are just main roads that few people drive on that cops love to watch because the lack of traffic = more speeding tickets. Hard to give tickets in traffic. I can find big roads farther away but its hard to get away from people. The freeway? Forget about it :(

shayne
05-14-2011, 09:58 PM
realistically what do you think that the stock or stock replacement pistons (kb silvolite for exc.) would tolerate for boost in a daily driver while maintaining a good degree of reliability? about at what point would a set of custom forged pistons make the most sense for someone wanting to boost a 3L.

Ondonti
05-14-2011, 10:30 PM
Its hard to say on things like that. Ring gap matters, fuel/spark tune matters, fuel octane matters. How you drive it matters. How much power you make at a certain boost level matters. Boost will make different power on each setup per psi. It can also be that too much torque from a quick spooling turbo can hurt things sooner, and also probably indicate a setup that will get "whooped on" a little more.

It could be 8 psi, it could be 15. Could be more. Megasquirt definitely raises the safety levels.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUwrvQ8Wy2M]
Missing on a few cylinders. Need to pull the plugs and potentially the oil pan to check bearings :( Sounds can be hard to verify when you are not on all cylinders. Going to be pissed if it spun a bearing.

Reaper1
05-15-2011, 08:50 PM
Sounds like it's missing compression on a few cylinders....

Ondonti
05-15-2011, 08:57 PM
Good point. It seemed too quiet when it turned over with nothing firing. Guess I should do a compression test when I check the plugs. The valve lash was running fine when the heads were installed on the the duster but it is set really tight....Or it managed to jump some teeth on the belt.

Ondonti
05-16-2011, 08:47 PM
120-150psi in all cylinders with rings unseated. So no huge problems...but....

Yay, all 6 plugs are fouled. They are recessed tip NGK 9's so they are pretty darn cold, and they are gapped at .025" from my race car. I did a straight head swap and I guess leaving the plugs in on a fresh rebuild was not a great idea with all that oil and a tough first start.

Reaper1
05-16-2011, 09:26 PM
HOLY CRAP!! 9's!!! Yeah, get some 6's in there AT LEAST with projector tips. I like to file half of the ground strap so more of the electrode is showing (just like a race plug, but WAY cheaper!). I'd also start with .030 gap, but that's me...

RoadWarrior222
05-16-2011, 11:02 PM
Gotta regap a cut back plug every 10-20,000 or so on my N/A 3.0 due to gap erosion, (with 15* base timing) can't imagine how quickly a boosted motor would eat them. (Those were a stock range champion)

Ondonti
05-17-2011, 01:27 AM
I put in some stock range champions that were already gapped at .038"
Apaprently she was actually super lean. All the crazy mods that I did to the regulator to try to deal with twin external pumps meant I was too lean.

Went and seated the rings. She is a bad B. That Semi brake kit spring opens the moment I get over 30% throttle and starts screaming. Sounds very cool, even if I am going very slow. The tune is obviously fubared and the Innovative MTX-L I have is not installed yet. I think its dumping fuel when it gets to 0psi boost because of the way the RRR is setup (point of onset, etc) so its running rich, then above 5000 rpms it rips. Its possible that above 5000 rpms it actually builds a few psi from boost creep or something. No boost gauge installed yet either.
So while its not fast, it is freakin loud. Never heard anything like this before because I can get the wastegate to scream withhout needing to make a lot of noise out the exhaust. It sorta sounds like a garden hose that is coughing on an air bubble...of fire.

Bad news, it overheated in the driveway when I got home. Radiator fan was unplugged but I never stopped for it to be overheating. There was water vaporizing on my radiator so i don't know if it has a leak or if that was from the overflow. The radiator sat outside for a long time and could have gotten damaged in a way that was not evident until driving. I need to check the thermostat in case that failed during the uber corrosion that was happening on the bad headgasket.

For me its a generally good day. I got to drive a holset 3.0 and make lots of noise.

The holset still has the silencer ring in it.

bakes
05-17-2011, 01:37 AM
Bent your going to have to bring her up to Misson (2hour drive)for a week end and let her loose .

RoadWarrior222
05-17-2011, 05:09 PM
Bad news, it overheated in the driveway when I got home. Radiator fan was unplugged but I never stopped for it to be overheating. There was water vaporizing on my radiator so i don't know if it has a leak or if that was from the overflow. The radiator sat outside for a long time and could have gotten damaged in a way that was not evident until driving. I need to check the thermostat in case that failed during the uber corrosion that was happening on the bad headgasket.

My last rad failed from the outside inwards, I was getting indications of seep like that, but it still seemed to be holding enough pressure... I thought, hmmm, maybe I'll hose the fins out... hit 'em with the hose and the damn things ended up all over the engine bay.... the fins were rotted out completely, or the few that weren't were making contact by rust, not a terribly good conductor. So yours could be going the same way if it was sitting round outside.

Ondonti
05-17-2011, 06:42 PM
Well since everything was rotting out from that nasty coolant that I couldn't keep clean, i was thinking its probably rotted from the inside out.
I have already destroyed 1 thermostat in the Spirit a few years ago. Corroded, fell apart, had to pull over. I didn't take the hint since nobody believed it was the headgasket. You may have even been suggesting an electrical issue instead of the headgasket.

I want to drive it so bad after a terrible day at work but I gotta work on her instead :( I just wanna open that wastegate around town!

turboshad
05-17-2011, 06:57 PM
Good job getting it up and going again. Why are you running a RRR with MS? That seems like it would be much harder to predict a tune since your injector tip pressure would be changing.

RoadWarrior222
05-17-2011, 08:18 PM
He traded in his brass balls for crystal ones. :D

Ondonti
05-18-2011, 12:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rgBspvVHq0

Put a 180 stat in and actually plugged the radiator fan in :P Overheating situation gone. Easy to overheat 100% water with no radiator fan.

The bad thing is on my way back it sounds like something is rattiling bad in the top end. Maybe a rocker got loose.


Good job getting it up and going again. Why are you running a RRR with MS? That seems like it would be much harder to predict a tune since your injector tip pressure would be changing.

This is not "getting it going." This is my daily driver. I just stole the turbo parts sans turbo off the Duster and installed burned exhaust valve stock heads from my Daily onto the Duster and took its good stock heads that had a big cam and solid rockers installed in. My daily 3.0 has had a leaking headgasket for 5 years and a slowly burning exhaust valve or 2. The headgasket finally started leaking water back into the cylinders and that forced repair. That only happened after 3600 miles of driving with 1800 of that towing another vehicle.

The proper cylinder head for the Duster will go back on eventually, she is just n/a for now with megasquirt until I build a new setup.

bakes
05-18-2011, 12:40 AM
Dam i love how it sounds.

Ondonti
05-18-2011, 12:48 AM
Dam i love how it sounds.

and the silencer ring is still installed. I might keep it installed. Will probably sound a little better when I fix the exhaust leak at the V band (not mating up right) and have it tuned properly. I took out the point of onset setting and it drove worse. Need to get my gauges done and installed. This is the reason I put the zero psi spring in there, so I could try to drive around without booming it up.

Its also pretty quiet. Catless 3" with ultraflow. I think it would be a lot quieter if I got that stupid v band clamping right. Gonna have to take off the downpipe and hack and weld.

Vigo
05-18-2011, 02:06 PM
This is not "getting it going." This is my daily driver.

Does not compute. It's either going or its not, eh?

Hope the valvetrain is alright. Replacing one of those rockers is a lot more effort than replacing a stocker.

turboshad
05-18-2011, 05:14 PM
This is not "getting it going." This is my daily driver. I just stole the turbo parts sans turbo off the Duster and installed burned exhaust valve stock heads from my Daily onto the Duster and took its good stock heads that had a big cam and solid rockers installed in. My daily 3.0 has had a leaking headgasket for 5 years and a slowly burning exhaust valve or 2. The headgasket finally started leaking water back into the cylinders and that forced repair. That only happened after 3600 miles of driving with 1800 of that towing another vehicle.

The proper cylinder head for the Duster will go back on eventually, she is just n/a for now with megasquirt until I build a new setup.


Ahhh.....that makes more sense. I thought you were getting things back on the Duster.......but if I would have thought about it for more than 2 seconds I would have noticed all the pics weren't of a Duster at all.

Vigo
05-18-2011, 06:27 PM
but if I would have thought about it for more than 2 seconds I would have noticed all the pics weren't of a Duster at all.

Hah, it never even occurred to me that you were thinking about the Duster. Now i understand Brent's reply.. The whoosh of context clues flying over my head..

shayne
05-18-2011, 08:10 PM
what brand or model of rrfpr are you running? i was looking at begi's website and it looks to me like there are two main types, one that adjusts fuel pressure up past what the stock reg will do when boost is applied (while being stuck with the factories fuel pressure setting prior to boost?) and the other model seems to replace the stock regulator altogether so one can set base pressure at idle either lower or ? (for larger injectors i would think) and the second function of it applies more fuel pressure as boost comes in just like the prior example. are we able to reset the fuel pressure on a stock regulator to accomodate bigger injectors, or would the computer just try to reduce the injector pulse width to counteract a overly rich condition?

Ondonti
05-19-2011, 12:40 AM
I don't know how but my new front main seal went inside out in one spot, popped the spring out, and failed. When I went to the backyard to start looking for the rattle noise, I saw a trail of tears on the driveway...
I took apart the oil pump thinking it had fragged and pushed out the seal. Oil pump was fine. Put a little washer in the oil pump relief valve to give it more preload and cleaned out the pan. My guess is that either I didn't have the seal deep enough into the oil pump because I know i didn't back it in as far as it will go, or that it folded over when I installed it and started leaking when the spring popped loose.
Since the pan was off I pulled off rod cap #4 to check out the bearings. Looks perfect. Nice to have some good news :P

Nothing was obviously wrong from the rear valve cover, rockers seemed fine.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0004.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/Sanyo014zoomedind.jpg

Vigo
05-19-2011, 01:14 AM
So you have had the rear off but not the front?

Crank seal, what a pain. Its annoying when little stuff like that comes up.

Ondonti
05-20-2011, 02:05 AM
Found nothing obviously wrong with both front or rear rockers. I did find a mark on my valve cover that lines up with a rocker. I don't know if its from a rocker or if its just a tool mark from when I modified the valve covers for breathers. It had a polished look compared to the cutter tool marks that I can see. I couldnt see any damage on the threaded end of the rocker so that has me uncertain. I just pounded the spot back a bit in case it was hitting.

Now going to have to botton her back up.

Oh a turd note, I cut my downpipe at the point where it goes 3" and then clamped it down on both ends so it would stretch (didn't cut in one spot where I knew I didn't need clearance) into the position it needs to be so the V band will seal properly and managed to run out of C25 shielding gas and after all the chopping and rewelding...and then me being pissed and still welding with no gas....well it sorta seals up lol. I have a 10# roll of flux wire but its in storage and I was too stubborn. Spend 5 hours doing a 1 hour job with the wrong tools. yay!
I guess the good news is that the v band lines up now.
Now I am really wanting that Hobart Handler, and some bigger guage extension cord. My HF welder welds fine when everything is cool, but its poor consistency means its hard for me to figure out what is the problem when its not welding right. I thought it was a poor ground but it ended up being the billion feet of 14 gauge extension cord. Then when i finally got things right, I had already ground and rewelded a billion times and ran out the gas. The warmer weather is also changing how the potentiometer in the wire feed speed is doing. Removing about 25 feet of cord took me from unable to maintain and arc to melting the stupid pipe. Its so hard to know if its your settings or just a bad day for the welder. It would be easier if I checklisted all the potential man made problems but I have not thought of that before :P

RoadWarrior222
05-20-2011, 11:19 AM
Yah, I can't run my compressor very far from the socket, and knowing that, I haven't even fired up the stick welder I've got yet. Not wanting to spend $$$ on an extension, I'm thinking of ganging 3 cheapies together.

I wonder if you would have got on better if you could have had the motor running, thinking the exhaust gas would help shield, but then if there was much pressure behind it, burning globs of metal splattered in your face isn't fun.

Ondonti
05-20-2011, 10:21 PM
Well with just the purpose of buying a tiny T-6 torx bit for my crappy cell phone, I grabbed two 25ft 12 gauge extention cords ($15 each) and a heavy duty grounding clamp. Now I just need a little more flexible heavy gauge wire to extend my grounding wire a bit. I guess lots of short cords is better then 1 long one because then I don't need to use excess cord when unneeded. I might need more then 50 ft but they only had 2 rolls.

Now I somehow gotta motivate myselt to clean up the timing belt and side of the engine of all that oil and put it back together. yick + boring work.

Vigo
05-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Beware ribbon cables in the phone. I tried to fix my last phone and had one part propped up while i worked on the other. It fell over and that was enough force to tear the ribbon cable. Really annoying. I was just trying to get some transmission fluid out of the microphone foam!!

RoadWarrior222
05-21-2011, 12:02 AM
Scotch tape + defogger repair paint + infinite patience and scratching with an Xacto..... fixes ripped ribbon cables.

shayne
05-29-2011, 01:02 AM
updates?

Ondonti
05-29-2011, 04:18 AM
My OEM style Wideband guage and then an OEM boost gauge I have had sitting around forever that came in a box with the duster and its failed t2 swap by previous owner.
Now I know that its not getting enough fuel n/a. 15+:1 AFR. yuck. Going to have to mess with the base fuel pressure. The zero psi wastegate spring seems to work decently according to the boost gauge. Maybe when the fuel correct it might creep and build a little boost in the high rpms since the turbine is much smaller then I am used to.

Then my attempt to seal the v band without having a real Holset clamp. Its leaking like crazy and I think its because the flange on the turbine housing is not quite thick enough for the clamp to completely bring them together. Too late to test it. The exhaust leak is really ruining things for me. I also need to take out the crappy HID lights because the ballasts are pretty much toast now.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0001.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0002.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0004-1.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0005.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0007.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0008.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0010.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0015.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0016.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/SANY0017.jpg

Ondonti
05-30-2011, 06:43 PM
LOL @ my fail. The harbor frieght welder would NOT weld when I was trying to reangle the downpipe near the V band but when I did weld the V band days before, it did manage to warp the Flange. The welder was working VERY well on that weld, better then I have ever seen it work. Stupid Chinese welder.

Going to take it off and see what I can do to get it flat. Belt sander I hope.
Apparently the right way to weld one is to tack tack tack tack like you are tightening lug nuts.

I started the car with the downpipe disconnected from the exhaust to see if I could get the vband to seal at all. Holy loud. Sounds like the Duster.

Ondonti
05-30-2011, 08:45 PM
Belt sander just wasn't working, even with 40 grit. Used a 40 grit rotary sander and just held it there forever. Now its pretty darn flat. It was VERY warped before. It was just contacting at 2 small points before so I had no seal at all. Used some copper gasket maker but I think I am too antsy to wait for it to cure :P

Ondonti
05-31-2011, 04:02 AM
Seals a lot better then before but I had to disconnect the downpipe from the exhaust and thats not an okay thing for daily driving or cops or headaches.
I think I am going to take it to the original shop that installed the exhaust in 2002 to have them fix that area. The exhaust is still too short to hook up correctly to the exhaust and not quite the correct angle.

To make the v band seal properly I had to tighten, then push back and forth on the downpipe to make the v band flanges rotate against each other, retighten, and repeat. I really hope this can get quiet.

RoadWarrior222
05-31-2011, 08:04 AM
When you're pissed off enough, use aluminum window screen and muffler cement :D

Ondonti
06-01-2011, 05:47 AM
Googled that. I might have to do that. For now I am going to pay someone to fix the gap between my downpipe and the exhaust. Being forced to work 66 hours this week so I don't have time to mess around. The V band deal will be my issue to fix but i need an exhaust that is not constantly tweaking.

I have no flex joints in my exhaust and I have decided I won't install one unless something breaks :P

bond_bbs
06-01-2011, 08:47 AM
Do you run a flex joint for the crossover pipe? Not sure how your turbo is ran in this, is it crossover mounted or is it rear mounted?

Edit: I looked through the pics again and noticed its crossover mount. Question still stands if you run a flex joint on the crossover pipe?

Ondonti
06-02-2011, 06:09 AM
There are flexes in the manifold but the actual turbo flange is solidly mounted through the trans bolts.

The Exhaust shop is being difficult so I am going to another shop. I had someone else call for me because I am not normally awake during a time when I can call and have to run off to work when I wake up...and the person on the phone was saying something about 2" pipe and catalytic converters. Nothing that is on my car.

Vigo
06-02-2011, 09:04 PM
Ive noticed exhaust shops dont like to do things in the engine bay if they can avoid it. Get that hard money job outta the shop and make room for some easy money why dont you..

Ondonti
06-03-2011, 04:37 AM
Hah, so they put my car right on the lift and then other employees popped the hood and started taking pictures. I didn't go inside so I just sat there annoyed. I didn't get a call back while at work so I hope it gets done. At least the wastegate spring = zero boost so no fun joyrides.

The car is really a turd with no boost because it can't get enough fuel no matter how much I dial in. Still messing with it but I think I am at a dead end and might have to put a 0.4 bar spring in so it will run decently.
I think the problem is that even at zero psi the turbo is pushing more air then I have fuel at "zero"ish psi and the regulator doesn't want to react until it goes above zero. I am not really sure. That sounds fishy. I am running 42psi base pressure with 30# injectors and can still not get lower then 14:1 AFR unless the turbo creeps up above zero psi at high rpms.

Well, thinking about it, those nasty cams probably move so much more air then the ECU can deal with so "zero" psi is really a whole new ballgame. I never had to deal with this before.
I can see that a huge cam in a 3.0 would perform poorly without a tune since it seems to jack up the tune so much. I need to make sure I change the fuel filter. I have not installed the in tank walbro from the Duster yet (Duster has a fuel cell now). I am worried about those fasteners that hold the tank straps because the ones on the duster broke when I loosened them. I don't want that to happen with the Spirit.

c2xejk
06-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Do you run a flex joint for the crossover pipe? Not sure how your turbo is ran in this, is it crossover mounted or is it rear mounted?

Edit: I looked through the pics again and noticed its crossover mount. Question still stands if you run a flex joint on the crossover pipe?

Brent's is different from how I do them now. His is bolted to the transmission with flexs to the manifold.

To get the cost down I now take a stock crossover mount and reuse the flanges and flex joint. The turbo is supported by a solid connection (steel pipe) to the front manifold.

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

Ondonti
06-04-2011, 02:51 AM
My manifolds were built a long time ago when none of us involved really wanted to take any risks. There is even a brace for my wastegate (bolts through the unused hole on the front of the trans where the clutch cable goes through).
I also have a mini bracket that puts 1 bolt into the front head from the turbo flange, but i no longer use that. I could probably save some headaches and use that one hole bracket and cut off the transmission bracket but I will never do it.

You could probably put 1000 pounds on my turbo flange and have no problems.

bond_bbs
06-05-2011, 12:45 AM
Thanks for the insight. I'm building tube headers for my 3.0L, and was thinking of not running any flex joints - just the front header straight to the turbo flange, and the rear header bolts to a joint before the turbo flange on the rear and run my external WG out the bottom side of the join below the turbo flange.

Ondonti
06-05-2011, 03:10 AM
Well I put a G-valve on the wastegate line and got it to run 3 psi, then even more after I put in 92 octane after work. Now it goes to 5 then creeps way above that. I am not exactly sure if it made it all the way to 10psi. I didn't have the guts to stay in the throttle while looking at the gauge.
Holset seems to have a boost creep problem. It leans out up top which is probably partly caused by increased boost and party by the cam. Not sure what I can do because I already have a full external setup. I would consider porting the turbine housing out if that would help.

I can get 5psi by 2500 rpms but the cams have killed off the power between idle and 2000 rpms. Even though I get boost, power is not there until you get much higher in the revs.

shayne
06-05-2011, 04:12 PM
what about installing stock profile cams, or a milder cam profile that is geared towards lower rpm power. that way the turbo could take care of the mid to higher rpm power, and you could have better off boost power and drivability from a milder cam? i know turbovanman has a cam available that is a good mild rv type cam to give these motors even better low and mid rpm power. thats the way i will be going myself, i dunno, just sayin.

Vigo
06-05-2011, 11:38 PM
What size is the wastegate? 38mm? Is the pipe feeding it big enough to move to a bigger wastegate?

Ondonti
06-06-2011, 02:09 AM
38mm with a pipe from each bank feeding the turbo. I would have to assume as Shayne that the Cam moving so much air on the top end does make a difference with creep, since creep is RPM dependent.
The newer TIal wastegate supposedly flows a little more. I think the pipe is 38mm when it comes together. I am not sure if the larger Tial MUST use a larger pipe. Problem is I would need new flanges.

Right now I am scared to get that high in the RPMs because of the weird wall of power it builds. It just pulls harder as it goes faster in whatever gear. The tires don't wan't to let go in the low rpms because of the gradual creep of boost making a very smooth power delivery, but when the RPMs get high, it gets scary. I am used to having an OBX so this is a very different situation when wheelspin starts. The cams are technically smaller then when originally installed in the Duster because the solid rockers are 1.5:1 ratio and the oem rockers are 1.6.
The warm roads here are hooking really well. I know the Duster was pretty violent with its power hit but this car feels fast without that violence. I would assume that the moment I put in a boost spring that just creates a certain boost level right away without slowly creeping, that smooth feeling will go away.

I think I need to install the Walbro & change filter before freaking out. I don't think 10psi boost is a bad thing, but its bad if you don't have enough fuel. Thankfully I have the ring gaps done to take a lot of abuse. 10psi boost on the Ebay turbo was too much for my original turbo setup with stock fuel pump.

Really enjoying driving it to work but I am using the fresh rings excuse to drive a little too fast (hitting the throttle to keep seating rings). I can see this car getting me into trouble so I need to be careful. Been driving the same route for months and I was always thinking I would do certain parts of the drive differently with a fast car......and I am. Merging apparently requires downshift + a little boost. I need to poke around with the car but i am so exhausted from work that I don't want to touch it.

I would love to race the car right now even though the tune is not perfect. I would definitely need the pump changed for that. Not sure if I will ever get a free day to actually race because we are working 7 days a week as of this last week and I don't know when its gonna stop.

Ondonti
06-06-2011, 04:01 AM
BTW vigo down for a 1/4 comparison vs the Aries? :P
This setup could be built for a lot less then 2k.

Vigo
06-06-2011, 11:25 AM
All the straight line stuff in my $2009 budget only added up to less than $600. The rest of it was wheels, tires, eibachs, and konis (~$1k).

But sure, ill compare a bigger motor with better heads and better cams and better intake and better exhaust and better turbo to my completely stock 2.5 with a t1 garrett and an intercooler.. why not. :p

RoadWarrior222
06-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Whoa, ima need a gallon more coffee and a reread of the assorted 3.0 sections and groups since time began, 'coz I missed where we have better heads and cams :D

Vigo
06-06-2011, 03:03 PM
Maybe you havent looked at an 8v head lately? :p

Also brent does not have stock cams in this car.

bond_bbs
06-06-2011, 04:55 PM
Brent doesn't have stock anything in that car, it seems.

shayne
06-06-2011, 09:29 PM
all work and no play makes johnny a dull boy. still watching with great interest. be carefull working that much can take a lot out of you and cause problems

Ondonti
06-07-2011, 04:49 AM
Our cams are microscopic.

I looked up some slightly larger wastegates with the same flange. Precision sells a 39mm and JGS sells a 40mm but the JGS looks kinda sketchy. Apparently a lot of turbo v8 boys use that company.
I really want an SBEC cal because I think a simple VE change could help fix things by keeping the AFR lower....And be able to rev higher (which leads to more creep).

The Duster once had creep problems when it was first put together but when I referenced the wastegate to the compressor and made sure the tune was okay, it stopped.
I can't really spend a lot of time on cars. Now that this is running, I need to finish immigration financial paperwork and finish my last class.

Ondonti
06-07-2011, 04:25 PM
I just remembered these cams have the adjustable gears on them. Maybe that could help a little bit....or make things worse :P I have set points on them for 106 and 102 degrees, OEM = 110 and its set that way because the Duster could rev to whatever I wanted with Megasquirt.

Ondonti
06-08-2011, 04:59 AM
I also found today that the reason why the gear shifts have gotten annoying is that the motor does not want to idle down until I come to stop. Since I am no longer running "zero" psi boost, I am going to take the base fuel pressure rate down to 31ish from 42, and then see if I can close the throttle stop some without it dieing as I come to a stop. I like smooth gear changes, not a shudder each time the clutch has to force the motor to idle down.
I think the car is pretty ridiculously fast for 3-4 pounds of boost so regardless of problems, I had a huge smile on my face a few times driving home from work. Also seems from the experiences with boost creep that more boost will be fun.
Hoping the cam timing change will result in something positive.

Since I am dropping the base rate I will probably give the Rising rate a little bump. My biggest worry is actually that the OEM fuel pump won't provide fuel when boost gets too high because our pressure relief will open when fuel pressure starts going crazy high.

I think I am going to try the bypass relief mod on my in tank walbro before I install it. That would give me another level of safety, especially with a RRR system that will get crazy high pressures.

Vigo
06-08-2011, 01:00 PM
Well, im definitely all for you being safe with your fuel system. After the failures youve already had and the money and work you put into the Duster system it would be a damn shame to have this one fail since you already have the benefit of experience.

shayne
06-10-2011, 09:04 PM
have you had any luck so far with tuning your setup? did lowering the base pressure and raising the gain rate help with driveability at all. so far, how is a turbo 3l for a daily driver? you should post up fuel pressures when you find a setup the car is happy with.

Ondonti
06-12-2011, 04:53 AM
Dropped down to about 31psi. I was able to drop the idle speed without the motor stalling out when cold. Gave the RRR about half a turn. AFR has turned out about the same. The car now decels most of the time if I am at something like 3000 rpms or higher.

The wideband not starting up is causing me the real problem because then it does die. I pop started the car at a stopsign today as it died at the white stop line and got pulled over (on my way to work). Told him I pop started the car because the oxygen sensor stopped working and he let me go. Must have thought I was drunk.

I think its possible that the AIS is wired incorrectly. Its also possible that the cams are annoying the ECU too much. I never worried too much about idle in the Duster. I want to do all i can to avoid putting in a smaller cam but if I have to then I have to. Car would behave like stock if it had a stock cam. I just like the top end too much...even if I can't use it. I ran 11.54 on a stock cam and 22ps. Also ran 11.9@117 on 16psi, stock cam. That was in the Duster. I won't run boost that high, or E85 fuel in this car.
I also can't put in a stock cam AND use these mechanical rockers. Not compatible with OEM base circle with oem valvetrain.
I don't really end up having time to work on things right now. I now have to find time to call Innovative and throw a fit about their product that has even gotten me pulled over.
Short term I need to install an OEM oxygen sensor.


It would be fun to get her right on fuel safety and make a pass and show people what she can do. If I get the megasquirt AIS working properly then I could see myself ripping MS2 out of the Duster and putting it in the Spirit. Down the road. I want to race the Duster N/A too. Of course I have no time to do any of that :P Maybe have an MS3 built for the Duster.

Irocelectric93
06-12-2011, 08:43 PM
Brent, what kind of WB are you running? LC-1 or MTX? I don't know what size the turbine housing is on the HE341...but do you still have your t67? Just curious if you could do some swapping to try and determine a more specific cause of your boost creep. I might have missed this but are these your reground cams with adjustable rockers?

bakes
06-12-2011, 09:05 PM
you could try putting a restrictor in the map vac line to slow down/mellow out out the cam pulses at idle

Ondonti
06-12-2011, 09:09 PM
Direct head swap from the Duster that had the mechanical rockers, regrind, and the heads were stock temporary on the Duster while my good heads were getting repaired.

The turbo is the real problem because its easier to spool. Even my 6765 had boost creep when i first put it together. I blame the cams for the actual creep. The creep has not been as bad recently. I don't know why.
I can't use the 6765 anymore now that the downpipe has been modified.

---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 PM ----------


you could try putting a restrictor in the map vac line to slow down/mellow out out the cam pulses at idle

I also need to do some pretty basic stuff like a boost/vacuum leak check. What do you think a restrictor will do? I have one on my RRR vacuum line. OEM vacuum gauge only reads about 7 inches at idle lol. I don't know how accurate it is.

I could run a vacuum line to my Duster and read it digitally on the Zeitronix or use a manual testing gauge.

Irocelectric93
06-12-2011, 11:15 PM
I forgot about the holsets 4" outlet. That does pose a problem for a swap. Cams are probably an issue spooling that holset real easy for you. If you say that the creep hasn't been as bad lately then i really don't know. I was going to suggest looking for vac/boost leaks as well.

Ondonti
06-12-2011, 11:33 PM
The cams do hurt spool and bottom end but I am thinking that my tires love me for it!

Irocelectric93
06-13-2011, 02:30 AM
True. Too bad its not tuned better. Car sounds like it would be pretty nasty.

Ondonti
06-13-2011, 02:45 AM
Its nasty, but its the decel shuddering that is bothering me right now. Our oem computers are easy to get running decently WOT, its the Speed sensor AIS integration and things like that which suck.
Its the speed sensor thats telling the ECU to let the AIS dump air into the plenum when the car is moving, then cutting off air when I come to a stop. Thats sorta how our stuff works. It just seems to be too exaggerated right now.


Also annoyed by the leftover exhaust leaks but those are not my priority.

Sundance 6g72
06-13-2011, 06:09 PM
Its nasty, but its the decel shuddering that is bothering me right now. Our oem computers are easy to get running decently WOT, its the Speed sensor AIS integration and things like that which suck.
Its the speed sensor thats telling the ECU to let the AIS dump air into the plenum when the car is moving, then cutting off air when I come to a stop. Thats sorta how our stuff works. It just seems to be too exaggerated right now.


Also annoyed by the leftover exhaust leaks but those are not my priority.

have you tried running with AIS unplugged? my duster ran fine (stock, just bolt ons) all summer but once winter hit i had to up my idle with the throttle stop and once the car warmed up it was idling around 1200rpms. wasnt to annoying until i got the 3inch exhaust.

i tried running with no AIS again sense winter is gone but for some reason the AIS sensor opens up gradually and idles really high (does this on all 3 of my throttle bodys even though they are unplugged)

found that the actually sensor is backing its self out so i just run with it plugged in but maybe it would work for you as long as it dosnt back out like mine do. idk

Ondonti
06-15-2011, 05:32 AM
I have not tried anything yet with the sensors. My megasquirt AIS wiring was not working properly so I never got it dialed in and in the Duster I didn't care about the high idle since I rarely drive it. The duster has the AIS motor and mounting piece from a 3.5L intrepid.
Makes me wonder if maybe the 3.5L sensor would fit better in the 58mm TB then the one from the 52mm (which is what I think is installed, its been 9 years :P ) I really don't remember how some of those basic things work anymore because I have been so deep into 3.0 places that we don't belong. :D
I get home from work late at night and rarely get up early enough to touch a car, let alone start it up.
First goal is just to swap the OEM o2 sensor back in so I can drive it and get the wideband unit replaced. Amazing how little progress I make on these things when I actually have a job. I talk about something as simple as the fuel filter and pump but its not gonna happen anytime soon.
I finally got my immigration financial support paperwork sent out and now I need to get both the wideband and my laptop warranty reparied, and extend the deadline for my last college class and hopefully finish it. I said no to voluntary weekend work but I might spend that fixing a Ford. There was talk today about making weekends mandatory. I won't get much done working 2:30pm to 1:00am when I am a night person and stay up after work. Unfortunately making extra money doesn't help car projects that I like to do. I am so used to doing things with no money the last few years. I should not have rebuilt this motor myself. I should have bought new parts and paid a machine shop while working Saturdays back when it was voluntary. Could have paid to build a forged shortblock in the same time spent not being at work. That said, I don't think I could talk myself into spending the money anyways.

Ondonti
06-18-2011, 02:50 AM
I thought of an interesting technical issue. Bigger TB = more air...but not more fuel. So the map sensor will provide some more fuel but you won't get the same help from whatever TPS enrichment is.
This thing runs darn lean until its WOT then it jumps right where it should be.
No work Saturday so I am gonna try to swap the fuel pump and filter. Not sure if I will be able to get the tank straps loose. Those fasteners suck.
Waiting on authorization to return my wideband for service. Plugged in a narrowband OEM sensor and got to drive to work on this beautiful Friday :)
The wideband sensor was sooty black whereas the OEM sensor was clean. I will see what the OEM sensor looks like after awhile.

When the pump is done then I will see how low I can get the fuel pressure to go on the OEM 1/4" return line. Hopefully near 30. I actually want to try dropping fuel pressure into the high/mid 20's but I know its not possible with a walbro, even with an upgraded return line.
I can always cheat and get a Hobbs switch plus some diodes to drop voltage to the pump when out of boost (instead of upgrading the return line). The return line will be the bottleneck because the regulator is crazy hogged out and even the turns are radius'd from back when it was on the Duster with 1/2" return line and twin hotwired Walbros (It still couldn't drop pressure so I had to run diodes to drop pump voltage).

Then when I get fuel pressure as low as it goes, I will start messing around with vacuum leaks and investigating the AIS. I almost think my biggest problem is actually the speed sensor input, not the AIS. Keeps the engine rev'd up real high until i drop below ~10mph, at which point it wants to stall when cold.

Get her happy and I can play with some boost safely.

Spiritman
06-18-2011, 11:04 PM
u get that thing running yet? geez yr as pokey as i am. any progress today?

Ondonti
06-18-2011, 11:09 PM
haha, you had to make a new account. Read the darn thread Kyle! Not like your 6262 3.0 has moved 3 inches in 6 months! Rear end is up on jackstands as we speak to attempt to loosen the fuel tank straps. I had to fix a stupid Ford first on my first Saturday off.

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2011, 12:02 AM
torch the nuts and bolts and spray them with penetrating lube many times before trying to loosen them.

ive gotten them loose without breaking them.

as far as the fueling/cal... have you talked to rob if he has something for the 94 ecu?

can you plug in a 90 and will it work?

i know we can tweak 90 3.0L ecus.

Brian

Irocelectric93
06-19-2011, 02:07 AM
PB and an impact go a long way on fuel tank straps.

Ondonti
06-19-2011, 03:13 AM
94 SBEC II = 3d = screwed.

I got the straps off. I took a fresh nut down as far as I safely could after all the wire brushing that I could fit up there (didn't have a small brush handy). Soaking it in some penetrant each time I did something.
I ended up taking a razor blade to the threads nearest to the nuts and tryign to cut out any rust that I could. That worked pretty good. Got them off.
Problem happened when one went on easy and the other stopped after only a few turns. I backed it off and found that the stupid clip that holds the nut in place had part of itself going into the threads and chewing things up. That almost ruined my night. Put a few spare nuts on down as far as they would go without hurting things more trying to clean it up a little. I took a chinese tap set that you can't use the dies on (total crap) and slightly oversized another nut using the crap m8 1.25 tap. Then I was able to get it on with a washer to hold the strap up. I was really mad when everything was going okay and something completely out of my control happened to damage the threads. Wish I had a decent tap and die set.

So now my Walbro is in and the filter is replaced. I guess I must have replaced it last in 2005 because I can see some napa style fuel clamps (with a good hex head size compared to some crap I have seen) and some new hose attached to the OEM quick connects. I actually really like those things.

Too late to start her up. Need to get the fuel pressure as low as it will go now. Took a few pics but my laptop which is easier to get the pictures from, is dead. This walbro module has the fittings expanded out at the ends where they pinch down. I did the same thign to the filter then it would not fit the quick connect until sanded down the mushroom I created :P I think I must have cut off the tips of the module back in the day.

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2011, 07:51 AM
rob has the 3d r/t stuff figured out.

i wonder how bad it would be just to define a few select tables so you could get the shape of the fuel curve correct so that the rrr would work better.

then take the timing values right before 0 vac and drop them some for safety.

Brian

bakes
06-19-2011, 11:25 AM
you forgot the Rpm can now be raised to 8200 as well and injectors can be scaled.

RoadWarrior222
06-19-2011, 11:49 AM
Unacceptable! .... want 10,000 RPM... :D




Not really, me be building for middle end grunt.... though come to think of it, maybe I do want to go more than 70 in 2nd gear...

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2011, 02:36 PM
you forgot the Rpm can now be raised to 8200 as well and injectors can be scaled.

i dont know if the factory controller can do 8200.

maybe 7800

Brian

RoadWarrior222
06-19-2011, 02:38 PM
Swap the clock crystal, add a heatsink :eyebrows:

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2011, 04:28 PM
then the software timers need to be retimed.

i think the 68hc11 can be ran faster but i dont know about all the rest of the hardware.

brian

RoadWarrior222
06-19-2011, 07:10 PM
Actually there was a verilog or similar code reproduction of a 6811 available on the net, that you can burn to a FPGA deally and run at 35mhz or so, was kinda wondering if you could flash that to a big array, have room for a SD card interface and usb controller on it, mount it up on a daughterboard and snap it on over the top of the old CPU... ... but yup timers might get screwed.

Ondonti
06-19-2011, 07:33 PM
Doesn't overclocking sorta screw a few things up slightly? The 3000gt guys do it. 7800 would probably be fine for a daily :P

After building fun maps for megasquirt in boost, I don't know if instant across the board spark retard would be very satisfying. The 3.0 can handle a bunch of timing at low boost on pump gas. Brian's suggestion would equate to 1 boost level and needing a new chip for another boost level. People with smaller turbos would probably need to take out timing at lower rpms at lower boost levels because they spool at a lower rpm. When I use my ears to set base timing I put it in 3rd and bog it at 2000 rpms and see if it will knock. Our torque peak knocks first.

Someone could spend a lot of effort to make something that ends up being semi effective but burn the person out when it comes to ever improving things further.
Leaving huge amounts of power on the table after all that work = :(

I am pretty happy with the E85 spark tables I have and pump gas would just lead me to drop off things to more reasonable levels. Mopar3.0 Kirk said that he added a LOT of timing up top and found some big gains there, but he was very heavily modified (tubular headers and custom plenum).

The other thing I have been struggling with is the fact that six 30# injectors only provide so much fuel. The RRR does expand the functionality of injectors when it comes to supportable HP. 7800 rpms and 10 pounds of boost could take a lot of fuel. All these things make me nervous about a ghetto cal. Finding out that some problems end up being worse or more finicky would suck. Reving 1600 rpms higher = much higher need for fuel. Things like that will make it harder to have a nice RRR tune and make it more important to have boost comprehension. I don't really have a valid argument to make either way because talking about something that has not happened since people were hacking 3.0 cals in 2002 is not very satisfying. Getting hopes up that will never come true.

I real 3.0 cal sounds great. N/A cal would be awesome. Been waiting so long I don't have an oem n/a 3.0 to bother with now. Hope it works cal vs fix anything I want, anytime I want. I know the 2.x guys who have flashable setups LOVE them and would never go back.
The only thing the OEM style cal brings for me is a feeling of reliability, plus decent driving manners when the car is hardly modded.

Ondonti
06-19-2011, 08:32 PM
A little mad at myself. I said I was going to defeat the pressure relief valve on the intank walbro and I forgot. Now, who knows if I can remove those stupid straps again. Guess I will have to ignore that for now.

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2011, 10:33 PM
you could always pull the tank before the strap studs get rusty again.

brian

bakes
06-19-2011, 11:05 PM
i dont know if the factory controller can do 8200.

maybe 7800

Brian

8127.5 rpm is the hightest Mptune will scale it to not 8200 but close enough.

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2011, 11:17 PM
im not saying that, im saying that there isnt enough processor overhead to support that high of rpm.

Ondonti
06-20-2011, 12:46 AM
Maybe I should just pack some grease on there to keep it form further corroding. I am more worried about the passenger side where I now have some damaged threads at the end thanks to the nutplate innards getting caught in the threads. That one sucked to get back on without making more damage.

I actually think defeating the pressure relief is VERY important on a RRR setup, not just for a huge increase in fuel flow. Whats the point of cranking up fuel pressure to match boost if your pump just bypasses most of that fuel. AMS fuel pump tests have shown the intank walbro to outflow the external walbro (that has no relief) when the intank relief is defeated. They both flow crazy amounts of fuel at incredibly high pressures when there is no relief.

I think the first thing I want to do is snip that speed sensor wire at the ecu. I bet that would also improve my decel characteristics because it wouldnt wide open the AIS whenever I am moving. I don't understand why the AIS would be programmed to do anything but maintain idle in various conditions. I don't have the a/c belt on but when I put it on thats gonna be another thing the AIS needs to deal with.

Ondonti
06-21-2011, 08:18 AM
Bleck. Broke the relief valve. Drilled it out and removed the expansion plug and the broken plastic below it. The spring is MIA. Put a piece of screw and expoxy in the hole. Pump is probably gonna fail with that spring possibly inside stuck somewhere. Go me. I think I should have just knocked it down a little and then used epoxy. The only thing that really bothers me as this point is tryign to figure out if the pump is gonna die on me. I powered up the pump with 2 wires and its not dead yet :yuck: Probably not a great idea to drive it to work the moment I get the pump back in. It probably broke well before I knocked it all the way in. I took pictures of where it was and I think the plastic where the check ball goes had already broken. There was never any resistance that I felt beccause I was just wacking away freehand while holding the pump in my hand. Awesome.

Ondonti
06-22-2011, 03:26 AM
Looks like I am being forced to work this weekend so I guess I have no excuse not to buy a new pump. I am still gonna try out the one I ruined.

I installed the pump after the expoxy dried. I only makes about 65psi when I fully clamp the return line. I took a video of me ramping up pressure and then raping it back down. Can't really post it right now because my lappy is dead and thats where I transfer videos.

Not sure if the pump is crap or the gauge. While the gauge read 30psi previously.......with how rich it has been running I wonder if the gauge is crap.
I turned down both the rate of gain and base rate until the pressure read an indicated 25psi (about as low as you can get it without the set screws falling out). Will probably jump higher then that when Is start the car. I was just jumping the fuel pump relay which is probably what I will do from now on when I need to mess with fuel pressure or things like that. I ran the pump for a good 10 minutes off the battery and it did not seem to have any obvious problems other then the above.

I figured that with the pump running full blast and me clamping the return line REALLY fast, that it would peg the gauge at 100, especially since there is no longer any relief valve. That is why I am wondering if the gauge is crap.

Innovative taking a million years is making this worse. I want to buy a new pump but the penny pincher in me is screaming noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

RoadWarrior222
06-22-2011, 09:00 AM
Sometimes you just have to get your inner TM-er drunk on sterno and buy crap while his faculties are impaired. :D

Vigo
06-22-2011, 02:49 PM
Isnt there a possibility that even with the mod, the pump is now internally leaking or bypassing SOMEWHERE? Harbor freight sells a gauge set for 10-15$, ive bought 2 (one just for the fittings on it..) and they work. Ive still got the one i paid more for but its in worse shape at this point! The harbor freight one comes with a rubber thing around the gauge which probably would have helped my $40 one..

Ondonti
06-22-2011, 03:50 PM
might be cheaper to install the oem pump and see what it can produce. Its actualy sorta cool running your fuel system without the car on. Whirring sound + dripping sound in the tank from the return. I have my Walbro in the Duster's original housing so its an easy swap.
Going to see if the car will drive now :P

Innovate is testing my patience though.

Irocelectric93
06-22-2011, 11:12 PM
What's wrong with your WB? What kind of innovate did you get?

Ondonti
06-23-2011, 04:36 AM
I got the MTX-L. The POS won't turn on 50% of the time and once it fails to turn on it will not turn on for awhile. Once it succeeds to turn on it will turn on every time you apply power.
That is not compatible with me using its simulated narrowband signal because the car goes into limp mode when the Innovate MTX-L craps out.
Also, since I messed around with the fuel pump i can no longer play with boost because I have no wideband.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/returns.php

These guys really need a frivolous lawsuit or two. 15 days to return something after they print your invoice = impossible to return! You get it 3 days after they print, The moment you get it you request a return (no time to even look at it) and if you get the return code its after the return limitation.

Maybe they will send me a return code after another 3 months when their "warranty" runs out. What joke. It feels like they are yelling when they talk about how I am responsible for all shipping costs even when its their fault the thing is broken. I understand that they want to screw me but they really should ship me out a mailing label.

I am still down with reversing charges on them if I have to. Its been 3 months but they have not delivered the proper product.

RoadWarrior222
06-23-2011, 09:17 AM
It feels like they are yelling when they talk about how I am responsible for all shipping costs even when its their fault the thing is broken. I understand that they want to screw me but they really should ship me out a mailing label.

I hate the DO NOT RETURN TO STORE crap I see on a lot of stuff these days, it must be because they know the stores will stop stocking it because it's a POS, bugger, that, if it's faulty it goes back to the store.... when they're busy... and I can discuss the particular inadequacies of the part, the store, the manager and his parents in a loud voice that everyone can hear....

And that shipping thing bites arse, gotta be something worth more than $50 to be worth bothering, think that's how a lot of them get away with it. If I was feeling particularly screwed though, I'd start picking appliances up off the curb and sending them to them freight forward.

Ondonti
06-23-2011, 04:09 PM
If feels like the immigration system. Make the process so annoying that you give up and break their windows instead. They can also play the "hope the item gets lost in shipping with no insurance because the customer already feels ripped off as it is" game. Thats probably why they state that if the return code they never give you is not "conspicuously" on the box, they will refuse the package. Who says they don't just decide "oh crap, this RMA number is something we are gonna get screwed by, kick that box to the curb." woo

Irocelectric93
06-24-2011, 02:04 AM
I got the MTX-L. The POS won't turn on 50% of the time and once it fails to turn on it will not turn on for awhile. Once it succeeds to turn on it will turn on every time you apply power.
That is not compatible with me using its simulated narrowband signal because the car goes into limp mode when the Innovate MTX-L craps out.
Also, since I messed around with the fuel pump i can no longer play with boost because I have no wideband.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/returns.php

These guys really need a frivolous lawsuit or two. 15 days to return something after they print your invoice = impossible to return! You get it 3 days after they print, The moment you get it you request a return (no time to even look at it) and if you get the return code its after the return limitation.

Maybe they will send me a return code after another 3 months when their "warranty" runs out. What joke. It feels like they are yelling when they talk about how I am responsible for all shipping costs even when its their fault the thing is broken. I understand that they want to screw me but they really should ship me out a mailing label.

I am still down with reversing charges on them if I have to. Its been 3 months but they have not delivered the proper product.

This is great news. (sarcasm) I have an LC-1 for the Iroc Daytona thats installed but have never finished it since i don't have my boosted motor in. For my srt-4 i bought an MTX-L...its sitting right next to me. I bought it RIGHT when they came out since they said the install was super easy BLAH BLAH. I got mine off an ebay store..but havent installed yet because i need to go buy some stainless TIG rod to weld the bung in my downpipe. I just hope both my widebands don't turn out as crap. One thing i like about the MTX is not having to recal the sensor every 6 months or whatever.

Ondonti
06-24-2011, 05:51 AM
Well the MTX-L seems like a product that they are not supporting very well. I am sure they don't yet understand its possible failures. They don't even include it on the return list of items you can send back. The LC-1 has been around for a long time so the bugs should be worked out. I just miss the customer service and "customer is always right" attitude at Zietronix. I am back peddling and just hoping Innovate won't completely screw me.

My bet is they will tell me over the phone to request an RMA again. :yuck: Thinking about how long this is shutting me down is painful. Even if I finally mail it, how long till I get something back and have time to install it? I am thinking I will be 1.5 months without wideband. I fried, mailed and got my Zietronix back in less then 2 weeks.

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 12:35 PM
when you do the pressure bypass mod or whatever its called on the wally 255, what exactly are you accomplishing? im thinking about doing it as well but im not going to push this motor to 500hp with insane timing and a huge turbo.

i guess im not sure if its right for me to do

Vigo
06-24-2011, 12:47 PM
It doesnt really have to do with hp level, it just has to do with your fuel pressure. Rising rate regulators are mostly used to get more power out of 'small' injectors by raising the fuel pressure at a higher than 1:1 ratio with boost. Depending on the ratio (adjustable) and the boost level, this can result in really high fuel pressures, even over 100 psi.

The walbro has an internal bypass that starts bypassing pumped fuel back into the tank instead of into the fuel line when you get up to 75 psi or something like that. So if you wanted to use a setup with very high fuel pressure, you would need to disable that bypass for the walbro to make that pressure and still support the volume requirements.

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 12:58 PM
cool, thanks

Ondonti
06-24-2011, 04:09 PM
Or just add an inline walbro which is incapable of having a bypass with their current design, otherwise it would dump fuel on the ground :P
The SRT-4 style pump we use actually makes it easy to plug the hole. cut up a little piece of screw and jam it in there with epoxy, then leave a little extra on top which will get smashed down and held in place by the fuel pump adapter that clips on. I should have just done that. I was trying the trick that everyone else does, but our pump has a different style relief that vents the gasoline around the expansion plug, instead of through an internal hole. No matter how far down i knocked it, it would not cover up the vent channel. I get the feeling our bypass dumps a LOT more fuel then the older style walbro that just has a little hole in the expansion plug.

Called Innovate and they said "well I don't have it on record that you requested a return, but I have your sales order. I will issue you a return number." I hope I don't have to call back and have someone say "I don't have it on record that I told you I don't have it on record."

Sundance 6g72
06-24-2011, 09:11 PM
i know people are picky with their widebands but prosport seems to have great CS if your ever in the market for a new wideband. Mine has worked great for me

Ondonti
07-01-2011, 06:07 AM
Finally got my wideband mailed in today. Hating no wideband. The car is either super rich or super lean. I have no idea. Thinking its super rich. Need to pick up a larger return line. I basically just started up the car and drove it to work having no idea what the idle fuel pressure is (aka the fuel pressure with alternator voltage from the running engine).
Its a turd below 2000 rpms, misfiring a lot under accell below 2000 rpms, but there is no problem at idle or free rev. I wish I knew if it was lean or rich. I did a short little pull with a coworker and shifting to 3rd = huge bog and very little power after 2nd gear felt fine. That is why I am thinking rich. My Duster with forged pistons made great power even when ridiculously lean, but if it got too lean, it would not make boost and totally crap out. It never had a "not real fast" feeling.

Hope I get the wideband back with whatever issue 100% resolved. I am only driving my car because I hate driving a taurus wagon and hate putting gas into its deep pockets.

Ondonti
07-09-2011, 09:40 PM
I need something that I can stick into the gas tank and use to unsmash part of it near the driver side rear, slightly to the driver side of the pump. I took out the pump but no luck so far.

5/16" return line is in but earlier I managed to have a jackstand pop off the rear axle and hold the car up by the corner of the gas tank. Winning!

RoadWarrior222
07-09-2011, 10:13 PM
Chunk of 2x4!

Though is your tank smooth on the outside? In which case you might get a cheap harbor freight type suction cup to stick and pull it out.

Ondonti
07-09-2011, 10:21 PM
Not smooth enough. I need some sort of jack that I can fit through the fuel pump area. The damage is not close enough to the pump that I can just wack something into the huge dent. The tank is a LOT more robust then I was expecting. I put a crowbar inside and tried to push out the weakest area and it just flexes a little.
I smashed it directly on the driver side strap at the edge of the tank. If the rear of the car has 1400 pounds on it, thats how much weight it took to smash the tank there.

RoadWarrior222
07-09-2011, 11:01 PM
Dry it out, seal it up and try 150 PSI ???

Vigo
07-10-2011, 12:08 AM
What is the worry here? Is it somehow going to keep the pump strainer from being submerged? I wouldnt worry about it unless that's the case..

Spiritman
07-10-2011, 01:14 AM
supposed to be poppin honda's left and right not poppin dents in your gas tank :clap:

Ondonti
07-10-2011, 03:25 AM
I don't want to have the tank like that. I probably knocked a gallon out of my capacity. The tank is now slanted slightly away from the pump so I also don't like that. Meaning I can't run the tank as low.

Trying to upload pics but the computer is freaking out about the SD card.

Ondonti
07-10-2011, 03:43 AM
Its actually worse then some of those pictures show. You can see that most of the edge held up but after the edge it all crushed in, so I think I lost a lot more then I thought, and it is bent around where the fuel pump sock actually is.

I don't think I can seal up the plastic vent port enough to put 150psi in it and I don't think 150psi will be enough.


http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0109.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0110.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0111.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0112.jpg

RoadWarrior222
07-10-2011, 04:09 AM
Its actually worse then some of those pictures show. You can see that most of the edge held up but after the edge it all crushed in, so I think I lost a lot more then I thought, and it is bent around where the fuel pump sock actually is.

I don't think I can seal up the plastic vent port enough to put 150psi in it and I don't think 150psi will be enough.

Damn yeah, that's a bit fugly.



I seriously don't recommend you try this, but I would because I'm not quite right in the head... Plug or put crimped hoses on as many ports as you can, leave a small bottom one open. Make a pencil sized hole in a piece of plate, heavyish, but not like 1/4", big enough to sit nicely over the sender/pump hole. Now, stand it up, with the pump hole at the top, in a wide open space, put the "lid" on it, have that small port/vent open, hopefully right at the bottom... Now get a propane tank and give it a long squirt through that hole until it smells "propaney" at the top... Now, with a match on a broomstick, light the propane at the hole in the plate and run like hell...

In theory, it will first burn like a stove, as it uses up propane and external air, but it's sucking air in the bottom, as soon as the mix in the tank sucks in enough air for the whole thing to light off.. it will... with a whoomph or a bang.... hopefully not embedding parts in your skull in the process, or turning your tank to shrapnel.

Ondonti
07-10-2011, 04:34 AM
I have thrown matches into the dusters old tank and it couldn't get enough air to do much of anything. I have been trying to think of something I could make to expand the tank. I wish our spare tire jack was a little smaller in profile.

RoadWarrior222
07-10-2011, 04:44 AM
I've seen smaller jacks. I've seen small bottle jacks. Might have to hit the pawn shops to find one though.


Ohhhh, here's an idea, a turnbuckle, might need a couple of pads tagged on each end, or figure out how to fold the eyes over and bolt something on.... provided of course you can reach in there and turn it.

---------- Post added at 04:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 AM ----------

Oh also, I have a couple of C clamps with a standard thread on. If you find similar, cheap or disposable, you could prise the pad off, lock two nuts to jam on the inside thread, so you can turn it with a wrench/socket, and use it backwards. Again, might need to rig something on the ends to keep it from popping out.

Ondonti
07-10-2011, 04:49 AM
I had been looking at my clamps but I inherited them so I didn't want to ruin them. Maybe the turnbuckle. Need to measure the smallest distance I have to push out first.
I saw some small bottle jacks but they are well over 100 dollars.

I can definitely reach in and turn something with a wrench.

RoadWarrior222
07-10-2011, 04:56 AM
Another air pressure idea, confine an inner tube in there and blow it up. Might use a small one by filling space with blocks, rocks, baseballs, golfballs or whatever other rigid objects are to hand.

And another, small hatch lift struts, these have been converted to actuators by people making halloween animated displays etc, though they aren't thought very "safe" (Especially if rusted I imagine) But if you've got dead ones hanging around, they just need a hole tapping in them for an air port (Don't need an exhaust really if you don't use a valve, just a nipple) and apply PSI while keeping your hands out of the way in case they pop.

Ondonti
07-10-2011, 08:36 AM
Well I think I got it as good as I need to worry about. I didn't know if this device would even work. Problem is I probably killed my liver having my hand in the gas tank for 2 hours. Wish the fuel level had been a little bit lower. Skin around my wrist is really pissed off because the hair on my arm was constantly rubbing against the sharp edges of the fuel pump hole in the tank. Washed in cold water and now trying to keep moisturizer on my skin.

Its mostly just cosmetic damage. There are some little pinches on the bottom but the actual huge divit all around the bottom of the tank is pushed out and thats what I really care about. You can see t hat even though the edge still has damage, that previously that spot had pulled in more of the surrounding tank, and now the rest of the edge is level with the corner of the tank.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0113.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0114.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0115.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0116.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Gas%20Tank/SANY0117.jpg

Reaper1
07-10-2011, 10:40 PM
I was going to suggest an inflatable piston like what is used on air suspensions...OR, use a hand pump and water to produce a hydraulic device. I've heard of people doing similar things with boat and motorcycle fuel tanks to remove dents.

All of that is moot now, as it seems you are happy with the results.

Ondonti
07-10-2011, 10:45 PM
My hand is not happy :P
I have a feeling its gonna be peeling 1 or 2 layers this week. Good news, No tank replacement. 3" exhaust seems to get in the way of dropping the tank.

I need that wideband back now. I put the 5/16" return line in to make up for the walbro. I have not actually checked fuel pressure when the engine is running since both times I drove it last week were with no time to spare on my way to work. Not exactly fun having the plugs foulding the first few hundred yards if you are doing off idle accell below 2000 rpms. That is why I was hoping its too rich.
It also bogged out during hard accel. Need that wideband!

Vigo
07-11-2011, 12:19 AM
Good job fixing the tank. I know its a bit late now but my first thought to fix it was an air bladder.. but you'd have to come up with one.. Do you have air bags in the back springs of any of your cars?

Ondonti
07-11-2011, 05:45 AM
I have a single inside the coil bag but i don't know where it is. I popped one and took the other out.

Vigo
07-11-2011, 11:52 AM
I was thinking something like that combined with some spacers maybe, but you already fixed the problem. :)

Sundance 6g72
07-11-2011, 04:28 PM
got my fuel pump intoday

how can i tell that its a legit walbro?

RoadWarrior222
07-11-2011, 04:42 PM
Your engine doesn't blow from it failing lean in the next 18 months.

Sundance 6g72
07-11-2011, 05:24 PM
now im worried

TU says its a walbro so im sure it is.. but the packaging dosnt say walbro in one single spot.

the only thing that says walbro is the pump its self and its engraved into it but dont have there logo anywere, that i can see.

RoadWarrior222
07-11-2011, 05:29 PM
I wouldn't worry about it, my weedwhacker has an original walbro fuel system part and I get at least 2 or 3 uses out of it before having to fiddle with it again. :thumb:

bond_bbs
07-11-2011, 05:31 PM
Many OEMs package in plain white boxes.. no need for custom boxes, helps recycling and production costs, and then companies can sometimes relabel the box to sell as their own (re branding).

I find 95% of my brake parts come like that.

Ondonti
07-12-2011, 02:35 AM
The fake ones are all engraved "made in the USA"
Take a picture of it and post it up.
The problem is that even if TU pays to send you a real one, the middleman can screw you.
Forward Motion keeps them in stock but their SRT-4 version does not say Walbro on the site, and thats the pump we use in the more modern 3.0's. The oldschool pump does say Walbro on their site. This makes me wonder if the srt-4 style is real. Its the same price range as TU and FWDP. A lot of ad's these days say "255lph pump" and do not say walbro, but they have the full walbro price. I think they do it so they can change more for the pump, without getting in trouble. Maybe its just a "mistake" but I would not advertise a walbro without calling it a WALBRO! The nice thing about when they say walbro is that you can hold them to it.
I was going to buy the pump from Forward Motion until I thought about the fact that the website said Walbro on the oldschool pump and not the srt-4 style

BTW, still no word from Innovate about the wideband. Loving their service.

Sundance 6g72
07-12-2011, 10:01 AM
:(

it has walbro engraved in it.. cant tell from a picture

along with made in usa engraved in it

am i good or should i call walbro and see what they think?

turbovanman²
07-12-2011, 07:53 PM
Innovate was great with me, maybe I got lucky?

As for your tank, RW had the right idea, plug off the ports, fill with ether aka diesel starter in a can, leave a small hole and light it, BOOM. That's how we mount tires that won't seat.

Great work Brent, she sounds good, :nod:

Ondonti
07-13-2011, 05:14 AM
Lol except now the fuel pump barely moves fuel so I have to buy a new one in the morning. It move so little fuel that if you block off the fuel line the fuel pump does not change sounds. Take off the fuel line and fuel comes out like you are spilling a full cup of water to the side. Fuel should spray out of the feed line a foot high when you hit the relay.

I also realized that having a zero boost spring means that once I put in a real Tial spring, the boost should be much more responsive. Since it cracks open the moment I go WOT, not responsive. 5-6 psi spring will keep it fully closed until at least 3psi.
And none of these fun things can be done as long as my wideband is MIA.

I also have some aluminum screen for gutters to use with that muffler cement to make a gasket for the V band. BTW, I just had a funny thought.. If I just cut out a 4" circle, wouldnt that aluminum eventually burn up in the center? No cat so it wouldn't hurt anything. We already have plenty of bad idea fun in this thread. I really didn't want to break that breather valve on top of the gas tank guys. No boom boom with something that would be impossible to replace :P

Edit: I was thinking about putting back in the stock pump and adding and external but I looked at the AMS fuel pump charts I have and a modified Walbro intank moves 242lph at 100psi. Dual intank and series Walbro's will move 271 and drop off less at higher pressures, but with an OEM pump in the tank I think those numbers are useless.
External pump only moves 191lph at 100psi and the unmodified intank walbro only moves 202lph at 80psi, 150lph at 95psi (they don't test it at 100 because it craps out). Imagine how sketchy my fuel supply was running bigger boost on the Duster at very high fuel pressures. I would say I was constantly maxing out the fuel pump and living on the alcohol system. Not a reliable combo

Vigo
07-13-2011, 12:31 PM
but with an OEM pump in the tank I think those numbers are useless.

Why do you think this? The stock in-tank pump can probably flow more at ~0psi than the Walbro can at 100psi. As long as the fuel pressure between the two pumps is low, the stock pump should be able to keep up with the walbro..

turbovanman²
07-13-2011, 01:45 PM
Edit: I was thinking about putting back in the stock pump and adding and external but I looked at the AMS fuel pump charts I have and a modified Walbro intank moves 242lph at 100psi. Dual intank and series Walbro's will move 271 and drop off less at higher pressures, but with an OEM pump in the tank I think those numbers are useless.
External pump only moves 191lph at 100psi and the unmodified intank walbro only moves 202lph at 80psi, 150lph at 95psi (they don't test it at 100 because it craps out). Imagine how sketchy my fuel supply was running bigger boost on the Duster at very high fuel pressures. I would say I was constantly maxing out the fuel pump and living on the alcohol system. Not a reliable combo

This is what Porsche, BMW, Volvo, VW do, they use a low pressure in tank pump to supply a very large inline pump, it works perfectly and the reason I went to that as my intank Walbro got weak, so instead of dropping the tank-PITA, I just added in inline pump and now I have all the fuel I need.

RoadWarrior222
07-13-2011, 02:08 PM
so instead of dropping the tank-PITA, I just added in inline pump and now I have all the fuel I need.

That sounds like a somewhat temporary solution until the in tank pump finally barfs.

Ondonti
07-13-2011, 03:21 PM
Seems like overcomplication to potentially flow less fuel. I think the twin walbros in series lets the first pump actually help move more fuel then just feed the 2nd walbro.
If I was to do it over again and had not ruined my walbro then it would be a good idea.

RoadWarrior222
07-13-2011, 03:25 PM
Yah need 4, into 3 into 2 into 1 almighty pump to rule them all... then if it don't start in 2 cranks the fuel pressure blows the plugs out..... but it will support 30,000RPM

Ondonti
07-13-2011, 03:58 PM
Called FM and I had them look at the pump. Of course there is no real way to know what he has. I told him my worries about Chinese pumps. He said he sources them from Michigan. Not sure that makes me feel better but at least it was sitting in his shop from whenever he last ordered pumps.

I was able to buy the pump without an install kit so it was 93 dollars plus shipping 103 dollars shipped. The walbro install kits have never worked for my tank seal.

"I see here in your files that you have a turbo 3.0 Dodge Spirit, we carry many lines of turbochargers when you are interested..." and then I had to chat about my cars. I do hate the Holset right now and wish there was a little precision turbo on there. We will see after I get that exhaust leak to disappear.

Called Innovate and they said 10 days after the package arrives until they get to the front of the line to be serviced. Blah. I love waiting in an hour line at the grocery store when they just need to open up one more register of the 20 they have empty.

Irocelectric93
07-13-2011, 04:58 PM
Sounds like innovate is sucking. I bought my walbro from FM but i can't remember if "made in USA" was on there or not....i honestly DONT think it was because i remember when i bought it is when you had gone through your first chinese walbro crap problem. I'll probably want to put an inline walbro outside my in tank one anyway.

Sundance 6g72
07-13-2011, 06:42 PM
couldnt i just call walbro and ask them if mine sound slike a knockoff

it has there W logo engraved in it along with GRj444 then a 14611-2 MADE IN THE USA right under the grj444

Ondonti
07-14-2011, 04:34 AM
Chinese are stamped made in America. They want you to think its the real thing. The only one I ever knew was fake was the old style that I borrowed. I could only tell because the casing did not have the galvanized shine but instead had a weird rough sandpaper like texture. Made in america stamp of course ;)
I only have purchased one pump from FM previously and thats the real Walbro that I recently broke :P

Post up a picture of that new pump so we can compare the casings when I get mine.

Just remembered. I may not be able to get the parents I need back into the car on Saturday but I can work on the Speed sensor wiring issue.

Sundance 6g72
07-14-2011, 01:32 PM
http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/127/11daab6e2ce841069dd41395adea328e/l.jpg

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/136/eccbf230a34246e282433feedc2dd7d0/l.jpg

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/141/72ab84d17f6e4093b86e4b4ea751ee72/l.jpg

http://a1.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/113/de30fa78a9a74a49a78b923ae645bbfa/l.jpg

http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/131/7b02b5fa320542998fb6f4bbfc2a2e74/l.jpg

http://a2.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/116/0db1fef3aba546c09f0ac51f68646784/l.jpg

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/152/0ff2f87938ba4aaf88c38dc7078af156/l.jpg

turbovanman²
07-14-2011, 01:58 PM
That sounds like a somewhat temporary solution until the in tank pump finally barfs.

Did you miss the thread above where I said alot of OE's do this?

Also, the best part of running a pump up front is it reduces the strain on the intake pump and makes them live alot longer.


Seems like overcomplication to potentially flow less fuel. I think the twin walbros in series lets the first pump actually help move more fuel then just feed the 2nd walbro.
If I was to do it over again and had not ruined my walbro then it would be a good idea.

Not sure how you figure that? As I stated, many OE's do that and if I stop the front pump, the pressure drops 5-8 psi. I am not even close to running lean with this setup.

Dropping your tank is cake, mine's a 2 hour job, no thanks.

Vigo
07-14-2011, 03:25 PM
i agree the van tank is annoying (ive had mine down 3 times) but it wouldnt take 2hrs.. it probably flags 2hrs. hehe

turbovanman²
07-14-2011, 03:47 PM
i agree the van tank is annoying (ive had mine down 3 times) but it wouldnt take 2hrs.. it probably flags 2hrs. hehe

For the first time, yeah, plus add a few wobbly pops, hehe.

RoadWarrior222
07-14-2011, 05:20 PM
I don't mean the arrangement per se, I mean the way you're just delaying replacing a pump that's gone dodgy.


Though I can talk, still haven't got my tank down yet... did it a few years back, just ran it on ramps, arranged some 2x4s on blocks for "rails" and slid it out.

(Doesn't really seem worse than any other tank, but it's nice when you don't have to have the tank down to change pumps)

Vigo
07-14-2011, 06:36 PM
It's a lot more annoying than a K or L gas tank. In the grand scheme of things it is just 'normal'.

Reaper1
07-15-2011, 12:50 AM
I remember dropping the tank on my van years ago. I didn't find it any more annoying than my Daytona's. Maybe that's just me...

turbovanman²
07-15-2011, 01:25 AM
I remember dropping the tank on my van years ago. I didn't find it any more annoying than my Daytona's. Maybe that's just me...

You have to remove the van tank, the cars, you lower it a few inch's, guess I am getting lazy, :p

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 02:38 AM
dont forget about my walbro pics ^ ^


also, how much ign timing is to much? Im using eds table and he likes to have alot of timing around 3000rpms under lighter loads but when you go WOT he has it around 31* max. when your lighter on the throttle its around 41* max. Im kind of wanting to run 41 degrees when WOT but im not sure if thats pushing the limit or not?

Ondonti
07-15-2011, 04:23 AM
Keep it the way it is. If you ever spent much time with OEM timing and advanced base timing, you would know we tend to knock at low rpms when we advance the timing and then at high rpms we still don't have enough timing. Thats what is so awesome about MS. Ability to be safe where you need it and more aggressive in other places.

I will post up the pictures of mine when it finally shows up.
I have no reason to drop my tank. I removed the tank from my Duster so I could fuel cell it and make room for my 10 bolt rear axle.

Single external pump moves less then a modified intank, and I don't know if a stocker can actually help the flow of an external. Simons van has an ecu that understands boost so he doesn't need 8 billion pounds of fuel pressure with a RRR to get fuel. All I care about is incredibly high pressure fuel flow, not fuel flow at lower pressures. An unmodified intank Walbro can supply well over 500whp in the right low fuel pressure setup. I do not have a setup like that on my Spirit.
I really want to avoid extra wiring and pumps in my Daily.

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 06:47 AM
so is 30* or a little less alright at idle (1500rpm idle)

im not trying to question EDs ability to do it right because its working great.. but 30 at idle ant 31 when im WOT at redline??? makes me think i can run it higher in the high rpms.

Ondonti
07-15-2011, 07:02 AM
I thought you were saying 31 degrees at 3000 rpms, not all the way across. OEM is 38 degrees in the upper rpms and we tend to advance that when we bump the base timing. 41 degrees at 5000 rpms is okay, etc. That would be equivilent to an OEM ecu +3 degrees of base timing. You can probably run more then that up high. You just can't do that in the lower rpms. Slowly scale the timing from the lower rpms up to the higher.
I don't remember what I am running at idle because it has never seemed to matter. 20 won't hurt. All I ever worried about was advance when cranking. As I said elsewhere, the different firmwares handle this differently and I think mine just uses the lowest RPM bin for starting advance. It was tuned for some big cams and those did not and still don't like starting. Bleeding off a lot of compression.

If you are at 6000 rpms and 0 kpa then you don't need to worry about knocking so thats why there is more timing in that area. I think 50+ degrees there is normal. When you get your WOT where you want it, you can just roll in more timing in each column as KPA drops row by row. You really don't need to worry about power output in most of your timing map.

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 10:48 AM
okay so i think im going to bump the timing up to 38 in the upper rpms at WOT and see if i can feel a difference. if i cant "Feel" it then ill just wait for ed to get his dyno time in so he can do all the work for me http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/facepalm.gif

Ondonti
07-15-2011, 03:12 PM
I had removed 10 degrees from my entire map the first times I drove MS because I was paranoid, and it was way down on power @ 9 psi boost. Added the timing back and zoom. Mopar 3.0 ran some real high timing in the upper rpms with 10:1 pistons and custom intake + headers. I have his timing map somewhere :P

RoadWarrior222
07-15-2011, 03:30 PM
You know what though, the flame front really doesn't care much about angle in degrees, it cares about having the right time in microseconds to TDC... so if you work backwards from a "good" point for advance, like 35@3000, and figure the amount of microseconds to TDC from 35* , then figure out the degrees from microseconds for 3000-8000....

Or something.

Ondonti
07-15-2011, 04:15 PM
Have fun finding the good point :P Our OEM timing is too aggressive down low and to lazy up top IMO. I guess you could sit on a Loaded brake dyno at whatever RPM you think your peak torque is and get perfect timing there, then follow the above. Still, I think things are too dymanic to just math your map. They dyno test engines at the factory for a reason :P My maps are pure crap if you actually ask me to prove they are good. I just know what timing levels were too high in the past and backed it off a bit at those boost levels and added some timing at 80 and 100 and 120 kpa. My map is built for 4400 feet so it needs some revamping. Ain't no 85kpa atmospheric pressure no more. Yayz!
BTW, I think it will be cool to measure Vacuum on my Duster now that the turbo is removed (stock heads/cams, exhaust manifolds).

I was looking at my speed sensor wiring and nothing seems wrong. I took apart the wiring harness back towards the brake booster and found the splice. Tested the wiring. All seems good. Only thing that I had previously cut was the wire that went from the splice to the ecu.

My transmission has been leaking oil though. I thought it was from the seal but, I remembered that the plug had been soaked in oil previously and I took it apart again for testing and the thing is just soaked. Took out the sensor and there is a puddle of oil inside the connector housing. I hope its an issue of oil screwing up its functionality. Thankfully I have a spare sensor or 2 ( I also have a 2 wire sensor in one of my trans). I don't want to install this better dry one because I really need a white speedo gear so i can get the MPH to read correct at freeway speeds, instead of about 7% low.
My speed sensor used to not work after about 5 minutes when I turned the parking lights on...After cleaning off the plug when I noticed it was not inserted and plugging it back in, my speed sensor worked with the lights on.
I hate the speed sensor in this car. Too many ghosts.
I am not sure what the power wire on my speed sensor is also powering (spliced off from some orange wire) but when I find my diagram book I will figure it out.

RoadWarrior222
07-15-2011, 05:06 PM
I guess the big variable lacking is cylinder filling efficiency at various RPM...


... but if you're too cheap to dyno, for that single point at peak torque, you need a really steep hill and a load of concrete blocks... and load up the car until it just holds speed up a measurable incline at torque peak, then work out what the weight is for the calcs...

... or 700 logged test'n'tune runs at the strip...

Man I miss the good old days... when your engine computer was a ride along mechanic, adjusting advance, pumping fuel etc on the fly and if he messed up you could slap him upside the head :D ...... mind you needing 9 litres to get 150HP kinda sucked, at 4:1 compression on 50 octane cat piss...

Sundance 6g72
07-15-2011, 05:19 PM
would adding timing cause you to run lean if you dont adjust the ve table? cuz i went form 31* to 40 at 4000- redline (80-100 load) and i ran REALLY lean up there at first. my VE table might have just been off but i didnt think it was that bad

Reaper1
07-16-2011, 12:01 AM
You can also use the brakes to load the car as well as 5digits suggests. I find it works very well!

Ondonti
07-16-2011, 04:10 AM
Okay, keep this place on topic. I am in perpetual wait for parts and not getting to enjoy my car.

Later in the night, I have stumbled on this.
http://synapseengineering.com/pdf/wg-manual.pdf

I didn't know synapse had a 38mm tial flange style. Theirs is 40mm. $250ish. Not sure I need it but I will keep it in mind.

Ondonti
07-17-2011, 12:56 AM
Terrible luck. The "fixed" walbro had not given up. The feed line right after the filter got pinched against the tank. The funny this is that I already had the stock pump in and thought it was also broken. Well, now that the line is not pinched, this pump goes all the way to 80psi and then stays there with its pressure relief obviously open. I never knew it was absolutely not capable of even 1psi over 80 :P Reason to be careful with RRR! I guess the gauge was working!
If you remember, the walbro I broke was only able to spike to 70 then stop at about 60. That pump also had a massive sound change as it went from 30 to 60psi while slowly changing pressure.
It seems like the Walbro was pushing more fuel at low pressure and overrunning the return line, but couldn't move fuel at high rpms. At this point I think my "data" is so bad that its pointless trying to hypothesize.
New Walbro is on the way, and now I know that the fuel pressure gauge is working. Fuel pressure is set to about 29.5psi base.
I hope my wideband comes soon.


BTW, I just found out that the super annoying insanely loud vibration/leak sound from my engine bay was one of the 2 exhaust evac fittings (only using one and splitting it to both valve covers. I thought that it would stay closed but since idle does not have enough exhaust velocity in a 3" tube to create consistent suction, it is constantly opening and closing. I stuck my hand over it and all of a sudden things were quiet. I think a lot of the noise must have been the metal check valve moving back and forth.

I also took some screen, cut it into the shape of the 4" v band flange and put muffler cement on it. Seems to have been a good thing so far. I kept thinking the insane loud noise at idle was the V band but thankfully its not.

Ondonti
07-17-2011, 07:16 AM
Car is much quieter. Happy about that. Drove around for 4 hours trying to burn off the old 87 octane gas that I put in when messing around with the fuel pumps.
Car is also quieter on the throttle because the wastegate doesn't open right away. After burning off all that fuel and putting 5 gallons of 92 in from a gas can, I romped on it and it sat around 5-6psi boost to redline according to the OEM boost gauge. I don't know how much I trust this gauge BUT I have a grainger on the wastegate line and I just tried to set it to "almost nothing" and maybe its adding a few psi. So with the .25 bar wastegate spring and these cams its no fun at 2000 rpms but at 2500 it will move and 3k instant boost. Not sure what rpm it hits 6psi. That probably depends how low I start and what gear I am in. To show how responsible I am, 4 hours of driving, no wheelspin. :D

I reconnected the speedo wire while out driving but then the anoying AIS issues came back the moment I did that. The Speedo ended up crapping out later on like it always used to when I have the lights on. I guess I have to do some deeper digging. No idea what the air fuel ratio is. Want that wideband back!

RoadWarrior222
07-17-2011, 10:33 AM
Oh I had a bunch of codes indicating speed, sensor, AIS and it wanted to stall coming to a stop, and found a cracked wire in the harness behind the battery.... (After I'd switched out speed sensor, cleaned AIS passage, ohmed out everything I could find...)

Ondonti
07-17-2011, 07:36 PM
Not excited to tear apart more harness. Already destroyed the ECU wiring back towards the firewall. Found no problems.

I don't understand why my speedo is not working if the ecu does not get a signal. Is there a conditioning circuit or something in the ECU for 3 wire setups?
Will a 2 wire setup work without the ecu and will my speedo understand it?

Ondonti
07-19-2011, 02:46 AM
Innovate just send me an email saying I have a package coming. I thought I was going to be notified when they stared working on it. Hopefully its either a new unit or they found something obviously wrong inside.

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 02:49 AM
your the only crazy person i know of that will take a car that didnt come factory with a turbo, turbocharge it and tune with a RRR and then not run a wideband and still not blow up.

Ondonti
07-19-2011, 03:03 AM
Well with the OEM pump I knew the tune was decent if I set base pressure to near 30psi. I had turned up the rate of gain a little bit when I put in the broken walbro and it ran like crap in boost and when cold at low rpms. I am a little less paranoid thanks to my big ring gaps. You know the moment that wideband goes back in I need to restrain myself from turning her up too far. The wideband died before the walbro went in so I was hoping I was just gonna be super rich, but I think it was actually lean :(

I have a good grasp on what will hurt the motor and what won't so that is an advantage. 3.0 wants to work hard as long as it works smart.
I need to do the same thing as you, make 100% sure that the timing is 12 degrees. The distributor was 12 degrees previously but the heads have changed shortblocks. I can't imagine there is much possibility for the timing changing unless the crankshaft keyways are slightly different (and I don't think they would be even a tenth of a degree different). Both motors were stock unmilled shortblocks. Only real difference would be the timing belt that I left on the Duster (nicer gatorback).

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 03:04 AM
speaking of being smart.. i got my timing sorted out on my car. i posted about it in my thread. max i ran was 50 degrees from 5000-6000rpms. not sure if i should go further or not (87 octane)

Spiritman
07-19-2011, 10:58 PM
so what did your trigger angle end up at ? still trying to figure out a few things with mine. however i have driven it on the ms3 :eyebrows:

---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

hope u get your wideband back soon. good luck

Sundance 6g72
07-19-2011, 11:33 PM
its at 74.4 i believe. (75 will do)

it was really easy how i did it. just set a fixed timing of 10*. then take a sharpy and mark 10* on the degree scale next to the crank pully. then put whiteout on the 3 grooves in the crank pully its self. Then use the timing light and change the trigger angle until the crank marks line up with the sharpy. i never understood it until i did it. also, taking off the surpentene (spelling) belt give you a steady reading.. not sure why. i had to call ed and thats what he told me to do and it worked great.

back on topic!

Ondonti
07-20-2011, 04:27 AM
I think the accessories cause the engine to speed up and slow down slightly. I have noticed it moves around a lot. I guess on MS you don't have to worry about unplugging the coolant temp sensor :P

Vigo
07-20-2011, 12:08 PM
The spring tensioner is probably what causes it. I bet the a/c pulley has no effect at all on it.

Ondonti
07-22-2011, 03:57 AM
Innovate sent me a brand new wideband instead of fixing it. Didn't send a new o2 sensor :P
Been waiting for a minute now.

Reaper1
07-22-2011, 08:43 AM
Well, I think at that rate the wait was worth it!

RoadWarrior222
07-22-2011, 11:01 AM
Well the diz will stay in time with the cam but the cam might be plus or minus a few degrees on a different block, so it would put the diz off when timed at the crank...

Ondonti
07-22-2011, 04:43 PM
Well I found that even getting a massive line bore on my front head still didn't change the timing far enough from stock to be mentionable. I was expecting a lot more.

Irocelectric93
07-23-2011, 11:23 PM
so what did your trigger angle end up at ? still trying to figure out a few things with mine. however i have driven it on the ms3 :eyebrows:

---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

hope u get your wideband back soon. good luck
Right now me and you are the only guys running MS3 on v6 cars :thumb: I've found that my car starts and runs well with a trigger angle of 60. Def still need to fine tune and match timing better but I've been side tracked. Brent...Good to hear that they hooked you up with a new WB. Did you not need a new sensor or what? I finally put my LC-1 in the Iroc and other than one goof on my part during install it went in super smooth and works perfect. Hopefully when i put my MTX in my SRT-4 i wont have any issues.

Ondonti
07-24-2011, 04:15 AM
Got the new replacement Innovate MTX-L reinstalled today. They just sent back my original sensor. Calibrated it but have not stared the car yet.

I removed the transmission mount that I had loose filled with some things and it all pretty much had fallen out, and the mount was completely broken on one side. Thats what happens when you make everything else solid. Filled it on all sides. Put a vee shape piece of steel into the triangle space that Polymounts fills with Poly. Then I shimmed it with thin pieces of steel to get it as tight as I wanted. Put two small blocks of iron at the bottom of the mount to prevent the mount from moving forward or back. Shimmed that. Tacked all that stuff into place. Then went out looking for some more 1/4" threaded iron pipe and Lowes no longer carries it. Said screw it and bought two small threaded brass 1/4" pipes and pushed those into my two remaining gaps. I just did an interference weld on them that prevents them from coming out either side since I can't really weld brass. I didn't want to put a huge piece of solid steel/iron there as I already added enough weight.

The fun thing was that I removed the crap Harbor Freight welder's welding clamp and put on a nice brass one that I am barely strong enough to open. Also used some 12 gauge extension cord that I bought for welding. Seems to have helped with both wire feed and welding. I added another 18" of ground wire so I can actually clamp where ever I want. Previously my ground clamp was exactly the same length as my lead. Stupid design.

Still unhappy about my speedo. I looked and found the one other place that the Distance sensor sends info, to the Transmission controller. I have all those wires cut off.
Vigo sent me some information about 1993+ speedo's but it doesn't really make sense. The info he found was someone claiming the TCM multiplies the signal by a pinion factor and conditions the signal. I don't understand how this can work when the signal branches off in 3 directions and the signal is generated by the Distance sensor. If there was an input and output from the ECU then it would make more sense to me.

I really want the ecu to stop using my distance sensor info but I don't want to lose cold weather/start AIS functions.

Ondonti
07-24-2011, 06:37 AM
I also installed an MBTX30U Motobatt. About half the size of the 10+ year old small battery that was installed. I don't have an NHRA legal installation right now :P
Not sure how I want to tackle that part. Its just ziptied into the front drivers corner of the battery tray. I just checked out the rules and the two 3/8" bolts into the frame/frame structure only applies to relocated batteries, which this is not :)
So just need to attach it in a way that does not throw up red flags (zip ties ;) ) I remember kids at the drag strip and their bungie cords.

RoadWarrior222
07-24-2011, 11:36 AM
pipe strapping and J bolts...... or maybe a bigass U bolt.

Aries_Turbo
07-24-2011, 02:13 PM
piece of flat stock, two pieces of allthread, 4 washers and 4 nylock nuts. no track should complain about that.

Brian

Sundance 6g72
07-24-2011, 02:36 PM
i have a battery i got for cheep off my buddy when he rolled his neon.. it dosnt bolt into the battery tray like the old one so i have it tied in by a rope http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/crash.gif

Ondonti
07-24-2011, 03:27 PM
Well I am probably going to use some sort of strap and bolt it into the plastic tray. Its technically legal because the battery is not relocated. I did read about some guy failing inspection with OEM front clamp setup on his F body so there can always be that one awesome inspector. I don't want to drill holes into metal at this point. This big drycell is 21 pounds, not a lot lighter then what was in the car.

Aries_Turbo
07-24-2011, 04:11 PM
Well I am probably going to use some sort of strap and bolt it into the plastic tray. I don't want to drill holes into metal at this point. This big drycell is 21 pounds, not a lot lighter then what was in the car.

yeah that was what i meant... i didnt mean drill into the car but into the stock tray and trim the excess tray off to save space.

Brian

Ondonti
07-24-2011, 07:20 PM
yeah that was what i meant... i didnt mean drill into the car but into the stock tray and trim the excess tray off to save space.

Brian

I don't actually know what this old battery is but it worked well with our tray and OEM clamp and it was a lot smaller. Its standard practice for me to break/cut off any part of the tray that I don't need. I like being able to get my hands in as many places as possible without taking things apart. I also relocate the tray forward from stock position. I originally did that for CAI systems to fit more easily.

Reaper1
07-24-2011, 11:26 PM
The 91 up cars with the 604 didn't have a speed sensor. They used the output turbine sensor to determine the speed. In order to do that the signal had to go to the TCM and be interpreted and sent back out. I'm assunming from the description the signal was also branched over to the SBEC for the same purpose. To my knowledge in those cars the speedo did not directly receive the signal. Possibly it went to the BCM then to the speedo. I never looked at the newer wiring diagrams and pinouts though.

Ondonti
07-25-2011, 12:02 AM
Well, glad the wideband is back in. Apparently even the lowest setting on the G valve with a .25bar Tial spring is too much for the fuel pump (mid/high 13's AFR). Not exactly sure how much boost that is. 6 or so but I am not sure. The BEGI rising rate is cranked down all the way and I also turned in the point of onset just in case it was having problems. AFR was still low/mid 13's.
Took off the G valve and it dropped to 3.626psi (.25 bar) and then I was able to get 11.8:1 or so AFR. Bye bye powa.

Not sure whats up with that. Not sure if the cams are just destroying the fuel pumps ability to maintain up top. Interested to see how the new walbro changes things.
The RRR might not work so well anymore for non insane fuel systems. All that drilling and radiusing that I did might be a problem. Oh the advantages of an in cab fuel pressure gauge that I don't have.

I am running a 5 speed ecu btw.
I was videotaping but then the AFR thing killed my fun.


Best thing that happened was the inner door handle stopped working. .

Sundance 6g72
07-25-2011, 01:01 AM
when should you have your new walbro? i kinda want to install mine tomorrow if i have the time.. but i also want to compare it to yours

Ondonti
07-25-2011, 03:18 AM
Bought my Walbro two fridays ago but it didn't get charged until Wednesday. Lame.

Music was a bit too loud so I turned it off. I did more pulls after this but I was messing with the tune and not worried about the cam.
I don't have a proper way to hold the camera. Mini Tripod taped to a 2 foot flat stick. 1 clamp on each post of the passenger head rest holding the stick up. Its worse when deceling.
Not happy that the camera move back when I hit the gas and missed the gauges.
Funny thing is I couldn't watch these videos on my computer until I uploaded them and youtube starts hacking up the quality. I can't watch anything but 1080p 60fps unless I convert it to something else. This laptop can't handle it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SE-8gCzN0A

Broken F body on the side of the road, I gave him BOV. That was the only nice part of the drive. He didn't seem happy.

Sundance 6g72
07-25-2011, 10:11 AM
car sounded nice!

do i have to run a big return line all the way back to the tank with the wally? i completely forgot about this...

edit: what about the heater core line? it sits right in the way of the turbo.. and i need heat in this car.

c2xejk
07-25-2011, 12:26 PM
what about the heater core line? it sits right in the way of the turbo.. and i need heat in this car.

I relocated them out of the way as much as possible and then sleeved them with a thermal barrier like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/THE-14010/ in areas that they were close to exhaust piping...

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

Sundance 6g72
07-25-2011, 12:50 PM
thanks ED!

what i was talking about is the steal part that goes from the block to the hose. It seems like its in the way.. but i havnt tried to install the turbo yet so maybe it will fit?

Ondonti
07-25-2011, 04:19 PM
I cut part of it off and flipped it backwards I believe.

87turbodance
07-25-2011, 04:30 PM
I cut mine and mounted it backwards. I tried to find a picture that shows it but this was all I could find. I don't have a turbo, obviously, but I felt like making this change in case I ever did in the future.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/sam0894q.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/sam0894q.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/sam0894q.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/sam0895b.jpg/

Sundance 6g72
07-25-2011, 06:22 PM
alright guys, will do. thanks

Ondonti
07-25-2011, 09:42 PM
That coolant tube is one of the things that is better after you modify it. Only thing the modification does is slightly obscure access to the one lower intake bolt, but you can still get it...
Makes no sense to me why they designed it like that. Luckily the modified route fits perfect with a center trans mounted turbo.

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 10:21 AM
im worried about downipe heat

how well does header wrap work? i have some on they way with my oil lines. Everytime i look under the hood i see my harness in the way of where the downpipe should be. luckily ill be running a 2.5inch downpipe (to keep things simple, the turbo has a 2.5 vband. maybe this will work better for me and not let me boost up right away?? what do you think)

Sundance 6g72
07-26-2011, 10:33 AM
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbo%203L%20Spirit/Holset/IMG_7377.jpg


looks like the harness is just sitting right under the downpipe and above the rear manifold O.o

i guess i need to think about how im going to cap the rear exhaust mani.

c2xejk
07-26-2011, 12:17 PM
im worried about downipe heat

how well does header wrap work? i have some on they way with my oil lines. Everytime i look under the hood i see my harness in the way of where the downpipe should be. luckily ill be running a 2.5inch downpipe (to keep things simple, the turbo has a 2.5 vband. maybe this will work better for me and not let me boost up right away?? what do you think)

Reroute what you can. Use a thermal barrier like I mentioned where you can't. They make a version that velcros on for things like wiring harnesses.

I have used some on a coolant hose that runs less than two inches from the downpipe and not had a problem so far.

Ed Kelly -www.kmperformance.com

bond_bbs
07-26-2011, 01:02 PM
Could always use like 16AWG sheet metal, or some aluminum sheeting and make a heat shield that goes around your down pipe. Make a few like 1 inch standoffs that go around the downpipe in increments (0, 90, 180, and 270*) welded on, bend a flat spot, drill a hole, then screw the sheeting to it.

RoadWarrior222
07-26-2011, 01:09 PM
Yarrr, nothing really too technical about heat shields. Do it with beer cans if you're too cheap to buy some flashing or something :D (Or at least to prototype it with)

bond_bbs
07-26-2011, 04:17 PM
LOL. I wouldn't suggest beer cans for the final product, but for templating they would be perfect. Hell, you could cut a section of old body panel to do it if you needed.

Just wear gloves if that is your route.. sheet metal cuts suck.. bad.

Ondonti
07-26-2011, 04:19 PM
Not terribly worried about heat. The only thing I worry about it something actually touching the downpipe. Our oem exhaust runs right there already. When our fan turns on it actually blows air right past that area, and driving forward does the same thing. If you had unwrapped wires there then I would be more worried.

Sundance 6g72
07-27-2011, 08:05 PM
is your oil feed (flange that bolts to the top of the turbo) have an amazingly small outlet?

i got my oil feed kit today and its insanely small.. the hose is a good diameter but the actual part tha bolts to the turbo has a puny tiny tiny outlet.

Ondonti
07-27-2011, 09:46 PM
is your oil feed (flange that bolts to the top of the turbo) have an amazingly small outlet?

i got my oil feed kit today and its insanely small.. the hose is a good diameter but the actual part tha bolts to the turbo has a puny tiny tiny outlet.
Small is a good thing. You don't want to force a lot of oil through the center section.

My new fancy Earls swivel 90 is actually leaking ( I think) so that is not making me happy. I ignoring that but its causing oil to run all the way down my center section and all the way down my return line.
BTW, I got my Walbro yesterday and already took pictures of it after i modified it. I did not post them yet but will try to tonight unless I get wrapped up installing the fuel pump.
This time instead of knocking in the check valve, I cut out a little thin piece of steel sheet to a shape that would cover the hole with some extra margin, then put JB weld in the hole, then put the metal over and and clipped the white adapter back onto the pump to hold the steel against the expoxy. Slightly thinner piece of steel would have worked better (i think it was 18 or 20 gauge) because I really had to force that side of the adapter to clip in. Good nuff for me. I am going to touch the 2 wires to a battery to make sure the pump is still spinning and happy then install it.

I also got a present for my Duster :)

Sundance 6g72
07-27-2011, 10:05 PM
whats the present ? ? ?

cant wait for the pics either

and by small i mean its like a pin hole size. i would have trouble getting a tooth pic to go into it. I hope thats how its supposed to be

Ondonti
07-28-2011, 01:52 AM
It might have a built in restrictor. I believe I put a restrictor on my PT67 setup but not on my Holset. The holset is the one thats leaking too :P
Ball bearing turbos require the restrictor and for journal bearing turbos you can use a restrictor but the size callout would be a little larger.

Ondonti
07-28-2011, 03:34 AM
http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/127/11daab6e2ce841069dd41395adea328e/l.jpg

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/136/eccbf230a34246e282433feedc2dd7d0/l.jpg

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/141/72ab84d17f6e4093b86e4b4ea751ee72/l.jpg

http://a1.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/113/de30fa78a9a74a49a78b923ae645bbfa/l.jpg

http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/131/7b02b5fa320542998fb6f4bbfc2a2e74/l.jpg

http://a2.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/116/0db1fef3aba546c09f0ac51f68646784/l.jpg

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/152/0ff2f87938ba4aaf88c38dc7078af156/l.jpg
Here is mine. A little big higher quality/focus

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0122.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0124.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0125.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0126.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0127.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0128.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0130.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0134.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0135.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0137.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0138.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0139.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Fuel%20Pump/SANY0140.jpg

Ondonti
07-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Installed the pump and clamped the line and it ipegs around 85psi after shaking violently and the line makes a nice crisp popping sound when I let go of it. The OEM pump made 80psi exactly. I am not exactly sure on the number from the Walbro. I was more interested in it if would hit 100 on the gauge and it did not.
Not exactly sure whats up with the gauge now. Obviously the other walbro was having problems when it could only maintain 60psi on the gauge. Even an unmodified walbro should push over 100psi but maybe at the upper limits the gauge is crap. Glad I ordered it.
If the gauge is off, then a clamp test really proves nothing because clamping the return line means the pump doesn't have to actually move fuel. Now, can your pump maintain 85psi when the injectors are at 90% IDC, that is the question. This pump should be able to go well over 100, but the fuel flow gains up there are basically zero.

The OEM pump is an itty bitty Walbro. Anyone know how much it is rated for? If its a 150lph pump then I can see why it doesn't like RRR setups because it probably also has a significantly lower relief pressure AND there is a huge flow difference.
I am not going to drive it to work tomorrow, maybe drive it on Friday.