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5DIGITS
02-21-2011, 11:12 PM
In 1989 the T-III was a chosen direction for Shelby. Several iterations were built during this time and I happen own a few. The chosen prototype T-III has several unique features that make it different it from the later production versions that we all know. The engine has no balance shaft provisions, a distributor hole, but includes the T-III crank vent boss. I have gone through the engine and have now begun working with the exhaust manifold and turbo assembly that the engine will utilize. Please feel free to view my gallery as I have been posting photos to capture the projects progress.



Enjoy!

cordes
02-21-2011, 11:14 PM
Sweet!!!!

86seeS
02-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Supscribed!!!!!

ScottD
02-21-2011, 11:52 PM
Awesome! 5DIGITS of SDML fame has returned!

Where are the pics though? I can't seem to find them.

sdac guy
02-22-2011, 12:01 AM
Awesome! 5DIGITS of SDML fame has returned!

Where are the pics though? I can't seem to find them.Go to the menu bar at the top, click on Gallery, then click on Member Galleries.

His is one of the first listed.

Barry

ScottD
02-22-2011, 12:05 AM
Thanks Barry. I clicked on his profile and was trying to find it that way with no luck.

5DIGITS
02-22-2011, 12:32 AM
I have posted some more pictures of the block and head.
As I learn more about how the forum works and how to use the tools, I will try to make it easier to connect to the photos, project progress, and details.

Thanks for showing interest.

glhs727
02-22-2011, 12:57 AM
subscribed!!

rx2mazda
02-22-2011, 01:02 AM
Subscribed! I love TIII plogs.

iTurbo
02-22-2011, 01:38 AM
Awesome I needed some inspiration here!

GLHNSLHT2
02-22-2011, 01:54 AM
man I'd like to have that crank for my 2.5 16v project.

turbovanmanČ
02-22-2011, 02:42 AM
TIII's forever, :partywoot:

Feel free to share your tips and tricks too, :nod:

Really small plenum on the intake.

Wonder why they changed their mind on the turbo setup?

That crank is unreal, wow, :hail:

BadAssPerformance
02-22-2011, 10:41 AM
Awesome Project :hail:

Directconnection
02-22-2011, 11:13 AM
Ken, I have some factory prototype cam specs from Mr. Royce if you'd like to see them.

BTW: I'm currently building a T-III, too :)

BIG PSI
02-22-2011, 11:44 AM
OK I must be stupid but I can not find any photos either.

sdac guy
02-22-2011, 12:39 PM
OK I must be stupid but I can not find any photos either.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=3246

Barry

Turbo224
02-22-2011, 12:43 PM
Subscribed!

Directconnection
02-22-2011, 01:32 PM
Awesome I needed some inspiration here!

5D has been my TM inspiration for how many years now?? :)

minigts
02-22-2011, 01:59 PM
I have posted some more pictures of the block and head.
As I learn more about how the forum works and how to use the tools, I will try to make it easier to connect to the photos, project progress, and details.

Thanks for showing interest.


This is crazy Ken, you may actually hit 100 post! :) This should be an interesting project to say the least. Thanks for posting pics and keep them coming!

Reaper1
02-22-2011, 02:58 PM
Very nice Ken!

turbovanmanČ
02-22-2011, 04:38 PM
1989 - CSX (1990 2.5 "Ultimate" 16v Production Vehicle)
1987 - CSX (1989 Prototype Shelby 16v)

Were these actually built? If so, damn cool, :cool:

Reeves
02-22-2011, 04:52 PM
Subscribed!

zin
02-22-2011, 05:30 PM
Very interesting stuff here! Subscribed!

Mike

Aries_Turbo
02-22-2011, 06:00 PM
cool ken. nice build. :)

Brian

5DIGITS
02-23-2011, 12:36 AM
Were these actually built? If so, damn cool, :cool:

I have modified my signature to be more descriptive. Thanks.
Some of these project vehicles are based on the Shelby/Chrysler information that I have and what the vehicles were planned to be. There were several iterations built and used for development and show purposes, with varying levels of content. One of the last ones survived for quite some time but was finally eliminated near the mid 90's, after being used and abused.
It has now become my personal goal to generate the vehicles while paying close attention to detail.

Thanks again.

2.216VTurbo
02-23-2011, 02:35 AM
Ken, I have some factory prototype cam specs from Mr. Royce if you'd like to see them.

BTW: I'm currently building a T-III, too :)

Hmm, maybe I should have asked for those instead of the stickers:eyebrows: I do happen to have a set of TIII blanks...

Ken, that crank looks somehow familiar:thumb:

5DIGITS
02-23-2011, 07:30 AM
Ken, that crank looks somehow familiar

Alan, I agree.
Even with several differences in detail, they do resemble each other in basic shape.

Thanks for posting and keep in touch.

Directconnection
02-23-2011, 01:56 PM
Hmm, maybe I should have asked for those instead of the stickers:eyebrows: I do happen to have a set of TIII blanks...

Ken, that crank looks somehow familiar:thumb:

I'll still post what I got when I have time soon. I'll probably post it in this thread, too... since it is on topic.

30 PSI SHADOW
02-23-2011, 03:23 PM
how many of the "shelby" valve covers were made? Wasnt there some made to resemble the real one too??

turbovanmanČ
02-23-2011, 03:59 PM
I have modified my signature to be more descriptive. Thanks.
Some of these project vehicles are based on the Shelby/Chrysler information that I have and what the vehicles were planned to be. There were several iterations built and used for development and show purposes, with varying levels of content. One of the last ones survived for quite some time but was finally eliminated near the mid 90's, after being used and abused.
It has now become my personal goal to generate the vehicles while paying close attention to detail.

Thanks again.

Thank you, :nod:

Directconnection
02-23-2011, 04:10 PM
how many of the "shelby" valve covers were made? Wasnt there some made to resemble the real one too??

I recall Diogo had a few made....

FWIW: {kicking myself now...} I passed on a complete Shelby T-III top end 5 months ago... Should sold my dirtbike to make it happen!

turbovanmanČ
02-23-2011, 04:23 PM
I recall Diogo had a few made....

FWIW: {kicking myself now...} I passed on a complete Shelby T-III top end 5 months ago... Should sold my dirtbike to make it happen!

Tough call, lol.

Reaper1
02-23-2011, 09:04 PM
Rick told me there were about 15 or so Shelby 16V valve covers still around IIRC. The ones that were "made" were modified stockers.

CNH320
02-23-2011, 09:33 PM
Looking forward to seeing these projects come to life... Thanks for sharing Ken!

You will be bringing one out to an SDAC-GL meet soon right?? ;)

5DIGITS
02-23-2011, 11:28 PM
Looking forward to seeing these projects come to life...
Thank you.. and I assure you, I am too.


You will be bringing one out to an SDAC-GL meet soon right?? ;)
Sounds like fun and yes I will.

Thank you, Chris.

5DIGITS
04-16-2011, 02:26 PM
Hello !

Although slow going, progress is being made with my 16V CSX project car. Some new pics have been posted in the 16V Prototype Gallery.
I have also added an interesting pic in my "Miscellaneous" gallery.

Thanks for looking.

cordes
04-16-2011, 02:43 PM
Hello !

Although slow going, progress is being made with my 16V CSX project car. Some new pics have been posted in the 16V Prototype Gallery.
I have also added an interesting pic in my "Miscellaneous" gallery.

Thanks for looking.

AMAZING! I love that GLHS speedometer. Unreal.

2.216VTurbo
04-16-2011, 05:39 PM
SA-WEET!:hail: Target completeion is one day before SDAC right??:eyebrows:

5DIGITS
04-16-2011, 07:05 PM
Alan,
The old 8V Shadow engine is ready, the Shelby 2.5 16v is ready for assembly, and the P-type 16V is now being assembled.
If I get all three of these done while supporting fuel is still available, it'll be a miracle.

cordes
04-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Alan,
The old 8V Shadow engine is ready, the Shelby 2.5 16v is ready for assembly, and the P-type 16V is now being assembled.
If I get all three of these done while supporting fuel is still available, it'll be a miracle.

Worst case scenario, you run it off of alcohol you make in a back yard still. I can supply you with the corn.

5DIGITS
04-16-2011, 09:36 PM
Sounds like a plan!!
I will change the project title to the Shadow 'C'orn 'S'tarch 'X'tract OR simply the Shadow SR - "Shine Ride".
The +50's will come out and +80's will go in.

Thanks

Directconnection
04-16-2011, 10:44 PM
Hey Ken,

That Shelby Automobiles sign in your sig.... is that your's? And if so.... you bastage!

5DIGITS
04-17-2011, 12:00 AM
Steve,
It's currently waiting to be hung from the ceiling - It'll work well as a garage "night light".

Thanks and keep in touch.

zin
04-17-2011, 04:35 PM
Steve,
It's currently waiting to be hung from the ceiling - It'll work well as a garage "night light".

Thanks and keep in touch.

How big is it? I'm wondering if it would be something that could be re-popped at a reasonable cost... Relatively speaking.

Mike

If you know who made it, that would be even better! (if they are still around)

Directconnection
04-17-2011, 06:28 PM
According to Ken's title of the picture in his gallery, it came from Whittier. Don't get no better than dat!

Reaper1
04-17-2011, 07:40 PM
Nice progress, Ken! Do you have any pics of the cam phasor? I've only ever read descriptions of it and how it worked.

The cancelled speedo makes me wonder even more if car companies actually ask and listen to consumers for their opinions! Ugghhh...

Turbo3Iroc
04-17-2011, 10:35 PM
That is a big sign! It's like 3' x 4'. I saw one at Papa's Dodge a few years ago and they weren't interested in selling it.

5DIGITS
04-18-2011, 12:38 PM
Sign:
You are correct on the size (approx. 4x3)
Not sure if the company still exists or if they would even be willing - I will forward any manuf. information, if it's anywhere on the sign.

Thanks

spirit1991
04-19-2011, 03:42 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ORIG-DODGE-SHADOW-SHELBY-CSX-11-PROTOTYPE-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2310132502QQitemZ15059 3545474QQptZRaceQ5fCarsQ5fNotQ5fStreetQ5fLegalQ5f
its all you!!

Reaper1
04-19-2011, 06:39 PM
Looks pretty rough and looks like it needs more than the SMEC.

5DIGITS
04-20-2011, 07:51 AM
Thank you so very much, for posting the information.

2.216VTurbo
04-20-2011, 12:40 PM
Thank you so very much, for posting the information.

Hmm, I read that twice Ken and I'm thinking you meant

:mad:

or

:thumb:

5DIGITS
04-20-2011, 06:00 PM
Alan,

It was meant as :thumb:.

Thought it was nice to have a member see something, make a connection, and then take the time to let me know.

Very cool !

Aries_Turbo
04-20-2011, 07:24 PM
yeah besides, you probably cant walk through your garage anyway. i know i sure cant lol.

even if you didnt/dont get that car, it would be awesome to see someone pick that thing up and fix it up and drive it. :)

Brian

5DIGITS
04-20-2011, 10:36 PM
yeah besides, you probably cant walk through your garage anyway...

Exactly ! But regardless of this fact, I had already been in contact with the owner when the vehicle information appeared on the forum. Any updates or additional information will be posted within that thread.

Brian, thanks and keep in touch.

BadAssPerformance
04-20-2011, 10:44 PM
Cool... I thought of you when I saw that link too!

5DIGITS
11-15-2011, 10:32 PM
Hello.
It has been a while since I have provided any updates but things are now slowly moving in the right direction, on two parallel project cars.
The 16V Shelby Shadow and 8V Shelby Charger engines are being assembled and a Charger project log will be added, when there's enough to support it.
The turbos for both vehicles have been completed, the TC and wide range O2 bosses have just been installed, and populated with sensors.
A few photos have been added within the Prototype 16V and Ultimate 16V galleries and they will hopefully be updated more frequently.
As an interesting side note, a newly designed T-III cam pulley adapter was developed to support installing a T-III sprocket on the intermediate shaft.
It's simple in design and it may be simplified even further. More details will be posted when it's in its final form.

Thanks and Take Care.

Directconnection
11-15-2011, 10:38 PM
Hey Ken, glad to see you back here!

Sounds like you've done lots more than I have, as of late.... I haven't touched the car in like 2-1/2 months now.

5DIGITS
11-16-2011, 12:38 AM
Hi Steve.
The majority of my time has been spent cleaning house.
A decision needed to be made to purge many parts and local sales have already occurred, to provide space to complete some projects.
More will be going and therefore more projects should be completed... soon!!

Thanks for the message.

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2011, 02:17 AM
As an interesting side note, a newly designed T-III cam pulley adapter was developed to support installing a T-III sprocket on the intermediate shaft.
It's simple in design and it may be simplified even further. More details will be posted when it's in its final form.

Thanks and Take Care.

Damn good idea, why didn't I think of that, lol. I had one made out of aluminum, wish he could do more.

5DIGITS
11-30-2011, 10:27 AM
The project is gradually picking up pace.
I have posted new pics and more will be posted soon.

Additionally, my gallery directories have been rearranged and the photos have been organized to the correct folders.
Two directories have been combined into one - now the 90 CSX 2.5 16v project.
While this thread is set up for the prototype 16v CSX, the 85 Shelby Charger is also seeing progress (turbo and head) and new photos have been saved in both.
Eventually, the 85 Shelby will get it's own thread, if it becomes anything worth while.

I have just completed porting the T-III intake (pics coming) that will be used to start the car but a new longer runner T-III intake is getting close to completion.
The latter will be the permanent direction and the hope is to have it packaged in the car before the years end.

Thanks

Aries_Turbo
11-30-2011, 11:51 AM
cool stuff ken. :)

Brian

5DIGITS
11-30-2011, 01:27 PM
Thanks Brian.

Being somewhat new to the project thread concept..
When I post photos I add comments to the pics rather than posting pics and comments in the thread.
Is there a preferred method?

Thanks

Aries_Turbo
11-30-2011, 02:53 PM
either works.

typically folks add pics and comments to the thread so that they only have to look one place for the info but its up to you.

Brian

86Shelby
11-30-2011, 03:08 PM
I think doing both is pretty cool since weeks/months afterwards going through a gallery it's easier to jog your memory and know exactly what you're looking at.

The progress looks good! That blue is an interesting choice and is a great hue! Nice to see something other than black or orange.

Longer intake runners sounds interesting as most go with shorter runners. I can't wait to see how it all fits in the car.

GLHNSLHT2
11-30-2011, 09:33 PM
it's easier if to read if you post the pics in the thread and then comment on them in my opinion.

Can you explain some more about what's going on with the exhaust housing setup? Why is it a prototype? What bolt pattern did the Lotus manifold have? I thought they had a T3 pattern?

Also why would you want to lengthen the runners on a T3 over stock?

5DIGITS
12-01-2011, 01:07 AM
Can you explain some more about what's going on with the exhaust housing setup?
Why is it a prototype?
What bolt pattern did the Lotus manifold have? I thought they had a T3 pattern?

The T-III housing is the standard rectangle pattern while the 8V and .63 Turbonetics housings were the trapezoid configuration.
They are not interchangeable and typically an adapter plate is used to go from one to the other.
I did not want to do this so I contacted Turbonetics long ago and had them pull housings prior to the machining process.
This allowed me to build one-off .63 housings that didn't require an adapter plate but used a Chrysler styled turbine housing, swing valve, and down-pipe.


Also why would you want to lengthen the runners on a T3 over stock?
The basics of intake tuning indicates that shortening runners supports high(er) RPM operation and lengthening runners improves low(er) RPM operation.
These engines have a bit to be desired at lower RPMs, for various reasons. They have larger volume runners and port entrances than 8V engines, due to the 2V per runner configuration. This greatly improves air flow but hurts velocity and intake tuning pulses. As a result, lower RPM response/torque suffers. This also produces HP/Torque curves that have less over-all range and narrower but higher peak output. Having a narrow but higher peak output curve is great for a car that can operate within that 500-1000RPM 'peak' range, all of the time, but this is not realistic.
The over-all operating range and output can be improved by lengthening, twisting, and/or tapering runners or by adding port flappers, VVT, and/or cam phasing.
These methods improve intake tuning pulses, throttle response, over-all output, and target more area under the torque/hp curves.
Incorporating a longer runner, one or two of the above techniques, and retaining good flow should be well received, on a T-III, with minimal impact on 'peak' performance.
I hope this helps clarify my goal of better over-all performance rather than narrowing the power band and shifting it even higher.

Thanks for asking.

5DIGITS
12-01-2011, 01:04 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.
Here are some of the recently posted pics and a couple of new ones that show some mild intake porting.
They will also be posted in my gallery, for those that prefer that method.


35899
35901
35902
35900

Thanks

rx2mazda
12-01-2011, 01:41 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.
Here are some of the recently posted pics and a couple of new ones that show some mild intake porting.
They will also be posted in my gallery, for those that prefer that method.



35899 35901 35902 35900

Thanks


Sweet! Why is the turbo clocked in that location?

5DIGITS
12-01-2011, 02:41 PM
Sweet! Why is the turbo clocked in that location?

The PT Crusier/SRT Neon discharges the same way, due to packaging constraints.
I have always disliked the lower elbow on the TD intercooler so the outlet will discharge downward and the lower transfer tube will go uner the oil pan.
The distance is the same but with a much improved lower intercooler entrance, without the near 180 degree turn.
The BOV port will also be located closer to the compressor housing to minimize turbo RPM loss, during shifting, which provides a shorter unrestricted path rather than being farther down stream or after the intercooler.

Thanks

Shadow
12-01-2011, 07:14 PM
Very cool to see a project like this going together! Look forward to following your progress :)

5DIGITS
12-03-2011, 02:50 PM
I received a PM recently that focused on our 16V rocker guide design and the resulting wear.
After typing the following response, I thought it might be worth sharing and posting in this thread.


Current design wear:
Looking closely at the side of the guide surface and leading/trailing edges.. The machining is hideous and the leading/trailing edges are better for cutting than tapering off the load. Use 800 then 1000 grit sand paper on a flat surface and slide the side of the guide back and forth to improve the surface finish. When this is done, slide the guide on its side (say that 20 times) then turn the guide up to round the leading/trailing edge. This will reduce the guides tendency to gouge the rocker and prolong rocker life. This was done to both sides on the Shelby 16v rocker guides before they were installed.

Additional improvement:
In either case of the 91 or later rocker guide, the loading and wear is isolated to a small area.
I have been considering a thin steel shim design that would go between the rocker and the guide. The goal is to further spread the loading while benefiting from a shim that can rotate to distribute wear. This would need to be a hardened shim to avoid adding another part to wear out and needs to exceed the large diameter of the rocker, to avoid cutting into it. Looking at the rocker ID and OD I realized that there is a significant supply of hardened spring seat shims that are great candidates for the application (for example - Jegs PN 555-20590). Possibly the thinnest shim is the best candidate to avoid gouging the side of the rocker and minimize/eliminate machining of the sides of the rocker guide. I am strongly considering this method for the "Ultimate" 2.5 16V engine.

Lubrication:
Looking at the oiling holes on the shaft, I realized that very little will make it to the side of the guide. The oil will follow the path of least resistance and discharge out the unrestricted 270 degrees of the rocker. I had considered putting lube grooves or slits in the underside of the guide and half way up each side. A small amount of oil can then pass between the bolt and the hole in the shaft, to feed the groove. At this point, a very small... a very very small groove would be enough to redirect the oil to the critical location. The groove needs to stop half way up the side (coming from the shaft) to pressurize against the rocker and avoid a useless but possibly pretty fountain display, under the valve cover. This process is more involved and needs to be well thought out to determine a groove size that doesn't bleed profusely but is large enough to avoid getting plugged over time.

Thanks

iTurbo
12-03-2011, 03:21 PM
Awesome stuff!!

GLHNSLHT2
12-03-2011, 03:54 PM
thanks for posting the pics in the thread, now you just need to figure out how to make them larger after clicking on them than they are.

Lotashelbys
12-10-2011, 04:40 PM
I received a PM recently that focused on our 16V rocker guide design and the resulting wear.
After typing the following response, I thought it might be worth sharing and posting in this thread.


Current design wear:
Looking closely at the side of the guide surface and leading/trailing edges.. The machining is hideous and the leading/trailing edges are better for cutting than tapering off the load. Use 800 then 1000 grit sand paper on a flat surface and slide the side of the guide back and forth to improve the surface finish. When this is done, slide the guide on its side (say that 20 times) then turn the guide up to round the leading/trailing edge. This will reduce the guides tendency to gouge the rocker and prolong rocker life. This was done to both sides on the Shelby 16v rocker guides before they were installed.

Additional improvement:
In either case of the 91 or later rocker guide, the loading and wear is isolated to a small area.
I have been considering a thin steel shim design that would go between the rocker and the guide. The goal is to further spread the loading while benefiting from a shim that can rotate to distribute wear. This would need to be a hardened shim to avoid adding another part to wear out and needs to exceed the large diameter of the rocker, to avoid cutting into it. Looking at the rocker ID and OD I realized that there is a significant supply of hardened spring seat shims that are great candidates for the application (for example - Jegs PN 555-20590). Possibly the thinnest shim is the best candidate to avoid gouging the side of the rocker and minimize/eliminate machining of the sides of the rocker guide. I am strongly considering this method for the "Ultimate" 2.5 16V engine.

Lubrication:
Looking at the oiling holes on the shaft, I realized that very little will make it to the side of the guide. The oil will follow the path of least resistance and discharge out the unrestricted 270 degrees of the rocker. I had considered putting lube grooves or slits in the underside of the guide and half way up each side. A small amount of oil can then pass between the bolt and the hole in the shaft, to feed the groove. At this point, a very small... a very very small groove would be enough to redirect the oil to the critical location. The groove needs to stop half way up the side (coming from the shaft) to pressurize against the rocker and avoid a useless but possibly pretty fountain display, under the valve cover. This process is more involved and needs to be well thought out to determine a groove size that doesn't bleed profusely but is large enough to avoid getting plugged over time.

Thanks

Hey Ken

I have had a few rockers repaired by machining them off and installing a steel machine bushing sort of like you mentionedhere. The car I have these on has over 5K on it with the machined rockers and they have almost no wear on them. Here is the link with a few pics
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/133698-tiii-rocker-arm-fix.html

5DIGITS
12-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Hey Ken

I have had a few rockers repaired by machining them off and installing a steel machine bushing sort of like you mentioned here.
The car I have these on has over 5K on it with the machined rockers and they have almost no wear on them. Here is the link with a few pics
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/133698-tiii-rocker-arm-fix.html

Thanks Jackson.
It seemed like a very simple and do-able concept.
Did you realize any additional wear (the bushing cutting into the aluminum) with the anodizing machined off the side of the rocker?
Hopefully some combination of these methods would reduce wear and also allow worn rockers to be salvaged, as long as they are not too soft without the anodizing.

Thanks

Rampage16V
12-15-2011, 11:28 AM
Great Thread Ken!

5DIGITS
12-27-2011, 06:40 PM
Great Thread Ken!
Thanks and good to hear from you - The Rampage looks great !

SHELBY 16V project:
Slight change in plans..
The current Prototype 16V was assembled with a new later production ported head.
To be accurate and somewhat over-critical I am porting a second new head for the 87 csx 16V engine.
The second head is an 89' thick wall casting which will match the era of the block.
It's in the early stages of the porting process but its moving along quicker than expected.

36409
Meanwhile..
The turbo is done and the wide-range O2 boss and EGT probe are installed, the Viper fuel pump module has been completed, and the 65lb/hr injectors, MAP sensor, and electrical hardware are set aside for installation. On the other hand, the new 16V intake is not done yet but the production style intake has been ported and installed to get the car running.

SHELBY Charger 8V project:
The new turbo is done, the wide-range O2 boss and EGT probe are installed, the short block has been re-assembled (JE .020" over, file fit rings, balanced, steel flywheel, etc..).
The cylinder head porting has been completed and it needs to be assembled and installed on the engine.
The intake will be the old custom two-piece from my 8V Shadow engine.

The goal is to install at least one of the engines over the next two weeks and move forward into mounting intercoolers, radiators, and wiring harnesses.

Thanks

Reaper1
12-27-2011, 10:14 PM
Ken, do you have any pictures of the turbo's and your mods to those?

5DIGITS
12-27-2011, 11:24 PM
Ken, do you have any pictures of the turbo's and your mods to those?

I do have a few T-III turbo pics posted in my gallery ( http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=933 ) but some updated ones should be posted.
Anything in particular you'd like to see?

cordes
12-27-2011, 11:30 PM
I do have a few T-III turbo pics posted in my gallery ( http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=933 ) but some updated ones should be posted.
Anything in particular you'd like to see?

I would love to see any modifications done to the turbine housing. I tried to adjust mine based off of what you suggested at SDAC a couple of years ago, but it would be nice to see a prime example.

Also, are you adding the O2 bung on the swing valve, or in the down pipe?

Thanks for the updates. This thread is quite exciting to follow along. I can't wait to see that "two piece" intake on a car. It was incredible to see and hold in person.

5DIGITS
12-28-2011, 12:23 AM
I would love to see any modifications done to the turbine housing. I tried to adjust mine based off of what you suggested at SDAC a couple of years ago, but it would be nice to see a prime example. Also, are you adding the O2 bung on the swing valve, or in the down pipe? Thanks for the updates. This thread is quite exciting to follow along. I can't wait to see that "two piece" intake on a car. It was incredible to see and hold in person.

Prime example.. I would like to see it too:)
I have been in a few turbine housing discussions lately and the best way to show the details would be to cut open the exhaust manifold/turbine housing assembly, after it's ported.
In the meantime, maybe the next photos should modified to show half of a stock housing pasted in with the ported half. I'll come up with something.

O2 bung:
I add an O2 bung to the elbow next to the existing O2 sensor. Having the WB beyond the seal (or lack thereof) can impact the sensors reading.

Two-piece:
Thanks!
I am also looking forward to it too - It's finally being bolted to a head that will consume more of what it offers!!

cordes
12-28-2011, 12:48 AM
You're welcome to join myself and the very small band of fellows who put the wide band sensors in the swing valve at SDAC this year. My hand gets tired from thumbing my nose at those who say that location is too hot.

5DIGITS
12-28-2011, 01:16 AM
You're welcome to join myself and the very small band of fellows who put the wide band sensors in the swing valve at SDAC this year.
My hand gets tired from thumbing my nose at those who say that location is too hot.

Too hot - that's a first, for me.
Maybe a cooler down-stream misreading is better.. who knew:)

Here's something else to consider, regarding the sensor and heat.
Along with the ability to produce incorrect readings, after the exhaust connection, the sensor is more prone to build-up and contamination, in a colder location.
This is especially a concern when using various racing fuels and their additives, including lead.
For what it's worth, the wide-band sensor going into the Charger swing-valve is the old one from my Shadow and after years of racing and countless tanks of racing fuel, it works like a charm.

Please consider me a member.

Aries_Turbo
12-28-2011, 01:18 AM
You're welcome to join myself and the very small band of fellows who put the wide band sensors in the swing valve at SDAC this year. My hand gets tired from thumbing my nose at those who say that location is too hot.

i get overheat codes on my controller because its in that location. im moving it but i may revise the piping to ensure a seal.

that said, i have a bunch of extra washers to cram the springs tighter to help it seal and i dont get soot on the graphite/composite donut.

brian

---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 AM ----------

what sensor brand/type you using ken?

GLHNSLHT2
12-28-2011, 01:31 AM
You're welcome to join myself and the very small band of fellows who put the wide band sensors in the swing valve at SDAC this year. My hand gets tired from thumbing my nose at those who say that location is too hot.

Maybe you just don't drive it hard enough :)

AEM is what 36" from the turbo? Innovate just says it has to be less than 900 at the bung of the sensor. That said mine is in the 1st small bend in the downpipe. The seal at the donut is tight. I moved the flange down the pipe, then welded 2 beads about an inch from the end so the flange would push on that instead of the flange on the downpipe itself. The thing seals nice and tight. I haven't gotten an over heating code yet but then I can pull into the garage, slide under the car and grab the downpipe for about 3 seconds before my hand gets burnt.

5DIGITS
12-28-2011, 01:33 AM
what sensor brand/type you using ken?

ntk - uego

5DIGITS
12-28-2011, 02:12 AM
AEM is what 36" from the turbo? Innovate just says it has to be less than 900 at the bung of the sensor. That said mine is in the 1st small bend in the downpipe. The seal at the donut is tight. I moved the flange down the pipe, then welded 2 beads about an inch from the end so the flange would push on that instead of the flange on the downpipe itself. The thing seals nice and tight. I haven't gotten an over heating code yet but then I can pull into the garage, slide under the car and grab the downpipe for about 3 seconds before my hand gets burnt.

36" inches down-stream or less than 900F in some cases.. That is really wild to hear.
I am curious as to why a specification would have have a sensor three feet away from the engine or limited to temperatures that can be realized at idle.
In your case, it sounds like you have addressed the seal issue - Nice!

Back on topic, I'll post some turbo, O2, and EGT pics tomorrow.

5DIGITS
12-28-2011, 11:13 AM
BadfastGTC,
Here's a better one of the port entrance.
I'm running this one a bit tighter at the divider corners and transitioning them into the bowl.
If you look at the bowl area you can still see the casting line. It's minimal clean up to minimize making the long side too large although the bowl width mods are extensive.
I have a little bit left to do on this port, a few more 'polish tests', and then it will be re-scuffed to completion.
Working inside these is like porting a turbine housing through the opening at the muffler tip.
36413

minigts
12-28-2011, 07:34 PM
That's interesting about the wideband O2 location. I always thought it would be good to just swap it with the stock one and minimize all the extra wiring, but that is more preference than best practice as to why I would do that. But the kit I have allows for a simulated narrowband output, which will allow me to kill two birds with one stone by relocating the wideband where the stock one is located. I'd like to see pics of this setup as well. :thumb:

shackwrrr
12-28-2011, 08:24 PM
That's interesting about the wideband O2 location. I always thought it would be good to just swap it with the stock one and minimize all the extra wiring, but that is more preference than best practice as to why I would do that. But the kit I have allows for a simulated narrowband output, which will allow me to kill two birds with one stone by relocating the wideband where the stock one is located. I'd like to see pics of this setup as well. :thumb:

They say that it too hot in the stock location. I've run it there and the 1.8 and 2.0t engines that the widebands originated from run it there too.

5DIGITS
12-29-2011, 12:42 PM
Here is a photo of the additional wide band sensor bung on the turbo elbow.

36423

In order to take the turbine housing pictures, I'm removing the T-III turbo from the engine and disassembling it.

minigts
12-29-2011, 12:46 PM
It's like you have done welding before or something. You've only been around these cars for a year or two, right Ken? ;)

5DIGITS
12-29-2011, 01:23 PM
It's like you have done welding before or something. You've only been around these cars for a year or two, right Ken? ;)
That's actually the new high nickel professional grade JB weld.. nice stuff !!

Truthfully, I need more practice and cannot weld that nice.
That was done by one of two welders that 'connect' what I fab, port, and tack together.
While they do their 'roll of nickels' I move on to the next step.

GLHNSLHT2
12-29-2011, 08:51 PM
So you're running 2 sensors in the swingvlave??

5DIGITS
12-29-2011, 09:10 PM
So you're running 2 sensors in the swingvlave??
Yes, I run the production sensor and WB simultaneously.

Reaper1
12-29-2011, 09:18 PM
Ken, I think Innovate's spec on the temperature is 900*C, not 900*F

GLHNSLHT2
12-29-2011, 09:35 PM
They say that it too hot in the stock location. I've run it there and the 1.8 and 2.0t engines that the widebands originated from run it there too.

I don't know, some people have gotten overheating warnings. I just went with Innovate's reccommendation of less than 900C at the bung so I put it in the downpipe as it's just warm most of the time and I didn't want to hurt the flow through the swingvalve. Mine's here. http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/v/Members+Rides/Jay+Jochec/87+Daytona+ShelbyZ/100_1044.jpg.html And there's a plug where the stock O2 was as I use the simulated NB output off the Innovate to run the car.


Ken, I think Innovate's spec on the temperature is 900*C, not 900*F

Yea forgot the C.

5DIGITS
12-29-2011, 11:27 PM
The turbo has been removed from my T-III engine and disassembled to provide the following pictures.

Stock .63 housing turbine inlet.
36434


Ported .63 Housing with the EGT probe set within the convergence area.
36435


Split Comparison photo.
36436


An elevated angle shows how the turn is integrated into the housing
36437

There is a significant difference when the manifold is ported to compliment/integrate the turn into the turbine housing.
The ported manifold was ported well into the lower stud hole in order to achieve the full benefit of up-stream porting and provide a smooth transition into the turbine housing.
3643836439
36442

Put paint on the flapper valve and determine how things line up BEFORE the by-pass hole is enlarged.
The size of the turbine wheel is important when considering how large to make the by-pass hole. (e.g. Large wheel - smaller by-pass hole)
When a large turbine wheel size is machined into the housing, the width of the scroll exit (into the turbine inducer) increases dramatically.
If a large hole is added to this combination the result in an unstable boost control that will oscillate above and below the boost target.
BTW - I put three elbows on this housing and realized three different alignment marks.
36440

The pilot hole for the EGT boss is located between the A/R numbers and captures the temp at the convergence point.
36441

I hope this helps

cordes
12-29-2011, 11:43 PM
Sweet! Thanks for the pics!

5DIGITS
12-30-2011, 05:12 AM
I don't know, some people have gotten overheating warnings.. Yea forgot the C.

Celsius makes a bit more sense and thank you for the clarification.
Just curious, does the sensor continue to function when it produces an over-temp warning?

Thanks for posting a link - a good pic really helps explain things a bit. Nice Job!

Aries_Turbo
12-30-2011, 11:22 AM
Just curious, does the sensor continue to function when it produces an over-temp warning?

i cant say for the innovate meter as i dont have one of those.

i have a techedge 2a0 diy kit that i built years ago. it uses the same sensor as the innovate. it doesnt say "overheat" but it will give a "PID unlock" code for a few seconds and then go back to normal.


Unlocked PID : It's possible for transient conditions to cause the RED LED to flash off briefly. As long as the AMBER LED and green POWER LED remain on then this is an indication of a PID unlock condition.

A PID unlock is not necessarily an error, but it does indicate either very rapid changes in heating or cooling of the sensor, and/or rapid changes in the ambient air-fuel ratio. If this occurs without an explanation (such as rapid changes in throttle position) then it may be an indication of an intermittent somewhere in the wiring, or an aging sensor. Both the LD02 and the TEWBlog logger indicate these conditions.

The heater PID sharp single OFF flash is shown and prior to rev firmware Rev-48 this single OFF flash was also used to indicate a wideband PID unlock too. This condition indicates may indicate the sensor is positioned where it is either too hot or too cool.

A wideband PID is now indicated by a sharp double OFF flash as shown here. If you have earlier firmware and need to differentiate between the two conditions then download the latest HXF flash files and update (note, all 2A0 files start with version number 00).

i think i just get PID for the heater. the sensor continues to function but without the sensor heater being exact, i question the accuracy of the data.

mine only does it with a real sharp stab off the throttle or if the boost shoots up super fast. it doesnt always do it. im assuming the temp change is a bit too much to keep the heat of the sensor exact.

i wonder if the NTK isnt as susceptible to this condition. what controller are you using Ken?

Brian

Reaper1
12-30-2011, 11:30 AM
The Innovate basically pegs when it goes into overheat if I'm not mistaken. I have to rewire mine as for some reason under full throttle after a few seconds it seems to get low voltage and throws and error for that, which makes NO sense! They SWORE it was overheating, but I have my sensor far enough downstream that the condition shouldn't happen, plus on the datalogs you can see where the error occurs and the error code is NOT overheat.

Ken, do the bungs for the EGT thermocouple have to be welded in as well, or are they pipe thread?

5DIGITS
12-30-2011, 02:31 PM
i cant say for the innovate meter as i dont have one of those.
i have a techedge 2a0 diy kit that i built years ago. it uses the same sensor as the innovate. it doesnt say "overheat" but it will give a "PID unlock" code for a few seconds and then go back to normal.
i think i just get PID for the heater. the sensor continues to function but without the sensor heater being exact, i question the accuracy of the data.
mine only does it with a real sharp stab off the throttle or if the boost shoots up super fast. it doesnt always do it. im assuming the temp change is a bit too much to keep the heat of the sensor exact.
i wonder if the NTK isnt as susceptible to this condition. what controller are you using Ken?

Brian

It's good to hear that the sensor continues to function.
Most decent sensors appear to have the continuous 900C upper operating limit but how short bursts above 900C are handled is determined by the controller being used.
I have an older meter that has no fault protection and newer ECM F/A 1000's that have yet to trip even though I have seen +1650F, at the turbine inlet.
This leads us to the following question..

If +1650F is realized at the oxygen sensor and it's faulting the WB controller, what temperature is being realized, at the turbine inlet ??



---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------


The Innovate basically pegs when it goes into overheat if I'm not mistaken. I have to rewire mine as for some reason under full throttle after a few seconds it seems to get low voltage and throws and error for that, which makes NO sense! They SWORE it was overheating, but I have my sensor far enough downstream that the condition shouldn't happen, plus on the datalogs you can see where the error occurs and the error code is NOT overheat.

Ken, do the bungs for the EGT thermocouple have to be welded in as well, or are they pipe thread?

That is personal preference.
There is typically enough material to tap into in the turbine housing but some prefer to drill a small hole, for the probe, and weld on the boss.

I drill and tap the turbine housing and to date, I have never had an issue.
On the other hand, I have seen welded bosses fracture at the weld.
If I had ever had a problem, I guess I could weld on a boss as a corrective measure, rather than the other way around.
Make sense?

Aries_Turbo
12-30-2011, 04:13 PM
It's good to hear that the sensor continues to function.
Most decent sensors appear to have the continuous 900C upper operating limit but how any short bursts above 900C are handled is determined by the controller being used.
I have an older meter that has no fault protection and newer ECM F/A 1000's that have yet to trip even though I have seen +1650F, at the turbine inlet.
This leads us to the following question..

If +1650F is realized at the oxygen sensor and it's faulting the WB controller, what temperature is being realized, at the turbine inlet ??

now that i thought about it and read the documentation on techedges website, i dont think mine is as much an overheat code, but just a too fast of a transition for the wb control scheme to handle. it probably points more to a calibration issue on my part... the last tune i was playing with when the controller was showing this error wasnt really dialed in that much and then i broke stuff so i never got back to fixing that.

steady state load, no issue. even with high boost, high gear and high load (22psi, 5th gear, 5000rpm)

as far as temps are concerned, at an inch from the head, it was never more than 1550F. i dont have a thermocouple at the turbine but ill add one there.

nice thing about my wideband controller is that it will datalog 3 thermocouples as well as wideband and rpm and 3 0-5v sources. tps, boost and intake temp voltages.


That is personal preference.
There is typically enough material to tap into in the turbine housing but some prefer to drill a smaller just for the probe and weld on the boss.

I drill and tap the turbine housing and to date, I have never had an issue.
On the other hand, I have seen welded bosses fracture at the weld.
If I had ever had a problem, I guess I could weld on a boss as a corrective measure, rather than the other way around.
Make sense?

while i have my turbo off, ill add a thermocouple at the turbine input.

what is a good thermocouple boss? i remember dave z mentioning lava bosses from some company that chrysler uses/used but i cant remember what company that was.

brian

5DIGITS
12-30-2011, 04:58 PM
what is a good thermocouple boss? i remember dave z mentioning lava bosses from some company that chrysler uses/used but i cant remember what company that was.
brian

He is right and I also favor the lava seal.
They don't crush the probe as much, they seal better, and withstand the temps.

Brian, PM me your mailing address and I'll send you a couple of fittings and probes.. Merry Christmas!

cordes
01-02-2012, 01:05 AM
While my elephant memory fails me on the name of the company at this moment, I did post the name of it in the SDAC 18 tech session notes thread which I started.

Aries_Turbo
01-02-2012, 11:34 AM
i think it was temprel.

Brian

cordes
01-02-2012, 01:03 PM
i think it was temprel.

Brian

That's correct.

5DIGITS
01-06-2012, 08:19 AM
TEMPREL INC.
206 Industrial Parkway Drive
Boyne City, MI 49712
800-582-5098

Rampage16V
01-07-2012, 06:44 PM
When I was running egt probes on my 8v motors at cruise and idle the temp in the swing valve was about 900 to 1100 degrees it would only go higher to about 1400 under 10 psi boost or higher.